Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
This is Melissa
Richardson Banks.
This is Mused LATU.
I've got Chi-Wan Choi.
Yo, how are you?
(00:20):
I'm good.
SPEAKER_03 (00:21):
I'm good.
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
I went back on
Facebook to see when we met and
it really wasn't when we met.
It's when we became friends onFacebook and it was October,
2013.
What I really recall was seeingyou on Instagram because you
were one of the few people likeme in downtown Los Angeles that
was getting up early andphotographing what you saw.
And I recall you had a dog.
(00:44):
Were you walking with your dogor why were you up so early?
SPEAKER_03 (00:47):
Um, I just wanted to
like walk and take photos right
before the sun came up.
And I think Instagram was likeimpetus for that too.
You know, like, Hey, I want topost photos on this.
So like I was testing out likeVSCO app and stuff like that.
And right, right before the suncame up is when people were
(01:10):
waiting for the bus to go towork.
Some people were waiting for thebus to go home from work.
And it was like, there was liketrash everywhere.
Cause like, That would be thetime, like all the trash from
the night before I was stillout.
But it was really nice.
I mean, it made me rememberdowntown LA before people
(01:32):
started living there en masse,you know, because it was quiet
and empty and surreal in so manyways.
I did have a dog, but I didn'twalk her at that hour.
I would walk, take that earlywalk, come home and then take
her out again.
It's funny, like all thehomeless people like started
(01:53):
recognizing the dog.
They'd say hello.
It's like, how's your dog?
Stuff like that.
There was one guy, eventually,you know, my dog, Bella, she
lost one of her legs, her frontright leg.
And there was one guy who keptsaying, I'm building like a leg
(02:14):
for your dog.
So like for a couple of yearsago, I'm almost done.
Like I'm building a leg for yourdog.
And I knew he wasn't, but hereally wanted to do this.
Even when the dog wasn't withme, he would go, hey, I'm still
working on that
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
thing for your dog.
Oh my God.
Oh my God.
Dogs are a universal connector.
I mean, that's pretty amazing.
As I mentioned, I rememberedthat the dog in being part of
the story, but I never saw thedog in the pictures, but I just
vaguely recall that you wouldmention it in your writing.
Now, dogs actually are whatreally got me to photographing
(02:53):
too.
So that's about the time, aboutlate 2011, early 2012 is when I
think I started doing Instagram.
So it's about 10 years as aphotographer.
And then that's when I saw yourwork and you were just literally
blocks away from me.
I was in the arts district.
You were in what is called thehistoric core of downtown Los
Angeles.
(03:14):
And you were seeing differentthings at the same time of day.
And it was just really, it waslike we were co-creators.
playing you know it's likechildren but we're on different
parts and it was like oh it'syou made me really reassured
because you were out there atthe same time and you saw the
same sunrise but from a wholedifferent perspective
SPEAKER_03 (03:32):
yeah it's wild how
we were just few blocks away and
it was our our what the thingswe were capturing were so
different
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
I loved it.
I loved it.
And so then it really wasn'tuntil later that I really had a
chance to meet you.
But I looked forward.
I felt like I knew you alreadybefore I was finally introduced
to you.
And it was amazing because Ialready felt like I knew
something super personal aboutyou because you were not only
writing or at least sharingthose photographs, you were
(04:06):
writing short words about howyou were feeling that morning or
what you had been working on thenight before and the one thing
you always included in your postis something I still do today do
you know what it is You datedit.
It was like a daily diary andyou would do like 03.02.2021 or
(04:29):
in that case, it was early.
And I thought, oh, that's greatbecause I can go back and I can
go back and look at this becauseit was really my visual diary.
And what it demonstrated to meis that it was your visual
diary.
It was your journey.
SPEAKER_03 (04:47):
Yeah, like I just
wanted to catalog.
I think the date and time andstuff, like I realized, oh, I
guess that's important if I wantto catalog.
And when I first started out aslike, hey, it was more like an
external thing of like, I wantto take pictures.
It became, hey, I want tocatalog my days for my own
(05:12):
memory and my own history.
SPEAKER_00 (05:13):
Wow.
And we were going through this Idon't know about you, but for
me, it was also this growingsense of loss because first it
was a growing sense of awarenessand I was just really
discovering my neighborhood.
I was discovering downtown.
(05:34):
I had the ability to do that.
And then all of a sudden I keptlooking at my photographs and
realizing that things werechanging.
And so ultimately the changeprogressed over a period of
years to something else, but itreally heightened my memories,
(05:54):
my bringing up the memories.
It brought up a lot of things inmy life.
Did that happen to you?
SPEAKER_03 (06:00):
Yeah, I mean, that's
a really great point.
Like, I don't think I wasthinking of it at the time, but
now that you say it, it's like,yeah.
Yeah.
I think that was a huge drivingthing of like, I know I'm
walking the same path everymorning.
I know I'm pretty much takingpictures of the same few blocks,
but why, but what is changing?
(06:23):
What is changing from day to dayto day?
And then, I mean, you don'tnotice it because you're going
in increments of day to day, butthen when you look at like here
and then they look at photosfrom here, you're like, whoa, so
much is happening so fast.
SPEAKER_00 (06:38):
Yeah, it was a crazy
time.
And it wasn't until I got toknow you as a poet or, you know,
I shouldn't jump ahead to thepoet because I want to talk a
little bit about the progressionof really how we came to be as
friends.
And I didn't give you a properintroduction because I didn't
really tout all the wonderfulthings that I now know about
(07:00):
you, but I just knew you as thisamazing human being who was
sharing what he was observingand at first my introduction to
your observations was throughthis photography and then later
your words and then then yourwords that were not only these
poetic words but theseobservations and it's been
(07:22):
really beautiful for me as yourfriend to also step back and see
all of this because you're veryyou're exposed in a very
beautiful way and there's avulnerability that I admire.
So I just wanted to share thatwith you.
Thank
SPEAKER_03 (07:41):
you so much.
SPEAKER_00 (07:43):
I really always
appreciate it.
And I don't see you enough inperson because we both have had
a journey in the past few years.
So I left California in 2016,almost five years ago.
And then tell us what happened.
What's your journey from LA andback?
SPEAKER_03 (08:05):
Well, in 2014, My
wife, Judy, got accepted to a
PhD program out here inPittsburgh at Carnegie Mellon.
And it was going to be a longprogram, like six, seven years.
So for the first year or firstcouple of years, I really didn't
(08:32):
see her much because I stayedback in L.A.
My parents were there.
Most of the work was there.
So I would fly back.
I would try to fly back a littlehere, a little there.
But when lease came up and theyraised the rent by another$500
(08:59):
or whatever, it was like, thisis ridiculous.
A student and a poet should notbe renting two apartments.
So, yeah, so we gave that up andthen sort of like floated
around, crashing on friends'couches and things for like a
year or two.
And then basically I said I camehere to be with Judy full time
(09:25):
because it wasn't fair.
It wasn't fair for her for menot to be here supporting her.
Like...
Not financially so much, butjust like with other things.
So I've been here in Pittsburghpretty much full time for the
(09:46):
last couple of years.
I mean, last three years or so.
Obviously, this past year,everybody's been at home, so I
haven't really traveled.
Yeah, so I never thought I wouldend up living in Pittsburgh, but
here I am.
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
I love Pittsburgh.
My story about Pittsburgh isthat when I was married many
years ago, well before you andI, long before you and I met,
and I remember I went from Texasto the Midwest and then from the
Midwest to Texas, then Texas toCalifornia.
So when I was living in theMidwest and It was just fresh
(10:25):
out of being in Texas.
And what struck me aboutPittsburgh in particular,
because we went to go visit afriend, my ex-husband was in the
PhD program at Ohio State inColumbus.
So we drove to Pittsburgh and Iloved it.
Of course, all I'm thinking isflash dance, the first thing.
Of course, I remember flashdance on the incline train and I
(10:47):
got on the incline train.
But what really struck me aboutthe city was that it had very
distinctive neighborhoods, whichI don't recall having that
experience growing up in mysmall town in Texas.
It, it, you know, you could goin Pittsburgh and in the
architecture, even not even justthe businesses, but it'd be, oh,
that's a Polish neighborhood orthis, it had very distinctive
(11:09):
neighborhoods.
And I don't know if it's stillas distinctive if that was it
for me, it was just verydistinctive.
jarring because it was just sucha different experience than what
I had growing up in small-townTexas.
How is Pittsburgh in your eyes?
SPEAKER_03 (11:25):
Yeah, yeah.
It's super segregated.
I mean, it's got all theproblems of cities that have
been hyped recently.
(11:47):
which is, you know, all the techcompanies came in here, built
like headquarters.
So like there's a huge Googlething here, Uber and all this.
So which means like, you know,housing projects with like a
couple hundred units are justbeing demolished and destroyed
(12:09):
overnight to build like WholeFoods and shit like that.
So it's, you know, like, I mean,I don't understand it because I
don't understand how townshipswork.
So it's like, I walk from hereto the bar down the street and
apparently I've walked throughlike three different townships.
(12:29):
I'm like, I don't, I don'tunderstand how townships work.
SPEAKER_00 (12:34):
Don't get me wrong.
I actually love Pittsburgh.
It was so good.
I mean, if the food, I mean, Ireally enjoyed it was different,
but it was just the distinctive,you know, had this really
interesting way to set up and itjust, you know, coming from this
crazy place.
And then of course my mind wasjust the flash dance.
That's all I remember ofPittsburgh before my experience
there, but that dates
SPEAKER_03 (12:54):
me.
You know, we, when Judy and Iwere first dating, we used to
joke a lot about the scene fromBasquiat where Andy Warhol is
like, let's go to Pittsburgh.
So we used to joke about it.
And then we end up here.
It's like, God damn it.
We shouldn't have joked aboutit.
SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
It came to fruition.
SPEAKER_03 (13:16):
Oh my God.
Yeah.
I was like, son of a
SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
bitch.
SPEAKER_03 (13:20):
I mean, I see why
people love it here, but it's
just not my, thing, not mything.
So, yeah.
I miss Mexican food.
I miss Korean food.
SPEAKER_00 (13:40):
There's a longing
you miss.
I know I had all those things,but I've learned it because now
I'm in Houston after being inLA, you know, for 25 years, I
was in LA longer than I was inTexas and I grew up in Texas.
So I've learned to appreciatewhat's, what is different and
what is the same.
I mean, there's a lot ofsimilarities.
And so I don't want to embracetoo much of the similarities
(14:01):
because then you become kind oflike those people that go out of
the country to travel.
And then they just hang out withpeople who are from the same
country or just other likethemselves, or they go to a
McDonald's You know, orwhatever.
Right.
So they want something that'sfamiliar.
So I think we need to touch afamiliarity, but I think we also
need to spend some time beingjust being a tourist doing
(14:23):
something new and embracing whatit is.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
Sure, sure, sure.
So
SPEAKER_00 (14:30):
I'm laughing.
So, so we started with how webecame friends, uh, how I first
met you.
Then I finally, again, I, I justreally got to know you in
person, right?
When you had the DT lab at thelast bookstore.
And I will tell you that I wasthis close to going to one of
the, that's when I first met youwhen, when it was going away.
So I was planning to go, we weregoing to do something together
(14:51):
and then all hell broke loose.
Do you, do you
SPEAKER_03 (14:55):
You got kicked out.
SPEAKER_00 (14:57):
But why?
Because you were successful.
That's why.
SPEAKER_03 (15:03):
Because, I mean,
like, you know, there's all
these industries and businesseswe love, like publishing or
indie bookstores and like evenlike little local restaurants,
mom and pop own places that welove and we support and we want
them to flourish in the world oflike Amazons and Whole Foods and
(15:25):
shit like that.
But then just because you own abookstore or mom and pop store
or you're in publishing doesn'tmean you're decent human beings.
so i
SPEAKER_00 (15:39):
get it though we
will go out there but i will
tell you that i only went intolast bookstore once because of
that situation i've only been inthat store once and everybody
loves that place and i was soexcited because it's just about
the time that i published myphotography book and i was like
okay let's sell my book we'll doa thing and yeah i think we were
planning to do something like asession and then it was like oh
(16:01):
yeah We're not doing thatanymore.
Okay.
So we'll move on from that.
But what I really loved is howyou moved on from that.
I, and it was probably somethingI saw you post today, something
like, oh my God, I'm in my headover my head again.
And I do the same thing, but Imean, I don't want to get you
crazy here, but remember 90 for90.
I love it.
(16:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (16:23):
The first
SPEAKER_00 (16:23):
one or the second
one?
Let's start with the first one.
But that's how you transition.
You took DT Lab and you said,okay, screw it.
We're not in this venue.
We're going to do somethingdifferent.
And I really loved what you did.
And you did it for two years?
Is that what I...
I just remembered.
SPEAKER_03 (16:41):
90 for 90.
We did it in 2014.
And then we did it again in2017.
And we were actually thinkingabout doing it like this year.
before a pandemic.
SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
Why not do it
virtually?
Let's do it.
I love that program.
Is it too hard to do virtually?
SPEAKER_03 (16:59):
Because we would
have to think about what it is,
what it is and what it isn't ifit was done virtually and try to
figure all that out.
We didn't want to just do itjust to do it because we learned
a lot after the first
SPEAKER_00 (17:15):
one.
Tell everybody what it is.
90 for 90 is...
SPEAKER_03 (17:21):
9490 is we decided
to produce 90 events literary
music arts events over 90consecutive nights inside a bar
and ended up being inside tracksat Union Station but it didn't
(17:42):
start out there it was at CafeFigueroa for about two weeks
before we got kicked out of itWe tend to get kicked out of
that.
SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
Wasn't that that
big?
That was
SPEAKER_03 (17:55):
the
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
big two-story place,
right, for a
SPEAKER_03 (17:59):
while?
Yeah, I don't know how thatplace was open.
I literally saw no one in thereever.
SPEAKER_00 (18:05):
I know it didn't
survive longer than a year or
two, but it was a beautifulspace.
SPEAKER_03 (18:12):
Yeah, it shut down
pretty soon after we got kicked
out.
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
Well, hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (18:19):
Well,
SPEAKER_00 (18:21):
so you did in 2014,
2017, which I missed 2017.
Cause at that point I was justgoing back and forth and that's
the, I actually got finally gotrid of my loft.
I was like you and Judy.
I basically kept a place in LAand kept a place in Houston and
it was exhausting.
It was financially challengingand it just was too much, but I
(18:43):
do hate couch surfing when Icome back though.
It's still a little bit.
You know, it's kind of hard andit's going to be difficult now
with.
SPEAKER_03 (18:49):
Yeah, it's weird.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:56):
Yeah.
But your parents are stillthere.
And that's what's interesting tome.
But I want to go into that alittle bit later.
But I know that that's you dohave family there, but that's
not necessarily where you wouldstay.
SPEAKER_03 (19:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (19:09):
Yeah.
I mean, I can't stay with myparents because, you know.
They're in the tiny apartment.
SPEAKER_00 (19:14):
Yeah.
Well, I'm going to go back tothem because I really, there's
so much, your family is a bigpart of, at least I feel like,
in your writings today.
And so I really want to loopback to that.
But so the 9590, and then youstarted doing, I remember
Cultural Weekly.
You're still a writer.
Were you part of the groundfloor of that happening?
(19:35):
Or I just know you were one ofthe original writers.
SPEAKER_03 (19:38):
No, the publisher,
Adam Leipzig published, He...
SPEAKER_01 (19:44):
Oh,
SPEAKER_03 (19:45):
shit.
My phone just thought I waslike...
He...
I didn't know about CultureWeekly.
I knew some people who werewriting for it, but he contacted
me through connections and askedme...
He had been running it for abouta year or so by then.
(20:09):
Just a handful of writers...
asked me if I wanted to writesomething for it.
And it was at the time when Ihad just like stopped writing.
I was like, I'm not going towrite.
So I was like, no, I'm notreally interested.
And then he contacted me again.
I was like, well, I'm not reallyinterested, but we chat.
(20:30):
And I was like, you know, I willwrite only if I get to write
what I want.
He's like, okay.
And I was like, well, what Iwould like to do if I was to do
it was to write a weekly columnjust talking about what we're
doing as a micro publisher inLA.
(20:54):
And decided to call the columnLiterary Alchemy.
And then just every week, I justwrote about what we were doing,
including this week.
We work on this manuscript thisweek.
We try to find the venue forthis event.
And that sort of became a thing.
I did that for like 80 weeks, Ithink.
(21:17):
And it was interesting becausethat gave me a place to actually
write about stuff like the lastbookstore event.
about getting kicked out ofthere, about an incident that
happened at Beyond Baroque, justbecause it was part of, you
know, what the column was.
(21:40):
So it's interesting going backand looking at it now, some of
the stuff I wrote about Corn.
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (21:45):
Another diary
SPEAKER_03 (21:46):
for you.
And then after that, yeah, afterthat, like 80 weeks of writing
this, yeah, Adam and I talkedand he was like, why don't you
come on as an editor?
So I did that.
So now we're in another hugetransitional phase where
Cultural Weekly is going tobecome Cultural Daily.
(22:07):
So we're going to publish daily.
So that's been like a big task.
SPEAKER_00 (22:15):
What's interesting
is Adam early on had asked me to
do something to write about myoutpost there at the arts
district.
And then I just didn't have, Ireally wanted to, I just didn't
have the bandwidth at the time,but I need to go back and look
at- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You guys were neighbors.
So he was always very supportiveof my photography and my work in
(22:36):
the arts district.
And so I-
SPEAKER_03 (22:39):
Yeah, he's pretty
great.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, he was like involved in,I think- Starting LATC.
SPEAKER_00 (22:48):
Oh, I didn't know
that.
SPEAKER_03 (22:50):
So yeah, way back
when.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (22:53):
I guess I need to
chat with Adam lately.
People who know youprofessionally and who don't get
the privilege of getting to knowyou in a different way.
Maybe they're not a Facebookfriend because that's really
where you also kind of sharesome of these wonderful nuggets.
But let's just talk hashtagtailoring.
SPEAKER_03 (23:16):
Oh, man.
So I was looking at Facebooktoday.
Oh, memories.
SPEAKER_00 (23:23):
Tell them what it
SPEAKER_03 (23:25):
is.
Like 2014, where I decided I wasgoing to do nothing.
Like I wasn't going to listen toany other music except for
Taylor Swift for the whole year.
(23:45):
So, yeah.
And the reason was, you know howthere's something about a
perfect pop song that justimmediately connects to your
emotions?
It just bypasses your brainaltogether.
It goes straight to your emotionand just connects.
(24:06):
Where you're crying about somesilly song, it just...
And I was like, wow, I thinkthat's like the holy grail of
writing for me.
Bypass everything and just gostraight to connect with
someone's emotion.
SPEAKER_00 (24:23):
Okay, so I never...
Am I in on it?
Is this truly a love of TaylorSwift?
Or did it start off as notbeing?
And then do you have anappreciation for her now?
Because I'm really curious.
SPEAKER_03 (24:37):
Well, no, what
happened was I was like...
Yeah, yeah.
What happened was like, okay, soI want to study the perfect pop
songs.
And then I was like, TaylorSwift had, to me, was like
perfect pop song.
Right?
Even though at the time she wasstill like country pop.
(24:58):
I was like, so I'm going tolisten to her.
And it just became a thing whereI was like, this is like my
favorite music.
You know?
SPEAKER_00 (25:09):
So you're truly a
fan.
You're a true.
Oh, my God.
Wait, you got a Taylor Swiftshirt.
Oh, my God.
It's a hoodie.
UNKNOWN (25:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:22):
I got like two
hoodies.
Can you read that post from2015?
Do you have it handy?
I'll read it.
I have it in front of me becauseI saw that.
Do you have it?
SPEAKER_03 (25:33):
Yeah, I was just.
No, that's just lyrics from hersong.
SPEAKER_00 (25:37):
I want to hear you.
I want to hear you share it.
Can you read it?
Do you have, is it on yourscreen or could I put it in the
chat box for you?
SPEAKER_03 (25:43):
Let me, let me grab
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
it.
Here I've got it here.
It was in my notes.
There it is.
It's on the, it's on the screen.
SPEAKER_03 (25:55):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (25:57):
Well, that, that
really, I, that was my biggest
question.
Are you, I was like, are youtruly a fan?
How did this, you know, comeabout?
And when I, I, I kept seeing youreally, you were singing her
praises over and over and I knowyou sometimes those comments can
be tongue in cheek, but it'sgenuine and it's a genuine
(26:17):
appreciation and I love it.
I just love it.
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (26:23):
Yeah.
It was a funny thing becauselike beyond the, what started,
it started out for me as anexperiment also, but you know,
but it was something I alreadyliked and, but it was an
experiment to see if I couldfigure something out about it.
(26:44):
But it led to all these externalthings that were so fascinating
to me that brought up likemasculinity and like all this
stuff is that especially guyfriends were like, you can't be
(27:04):
serious.
Like, were constantly upset withme.
Like, basically questioning,like, what does this mean about
you as a guy listening to TaylorSwift?
Right?
Even though those weren't theiractual words, that's what the
question became.
So I found that so freakingfascinating.
(27:27):
And then it also, like, became athing.
Like, I have so many, like,Facebook friends who connected
with me because of Taylor Swift.
It's like, and they're like notnecessarily like poets or
academics or anything like that.
It's just people who genuinelylike the thing.
(27:50):
And it's like, and it opened upthis whole other space.
So actually like when I wrote mylast book, The Yellow House,
like that's all I listened to.
So yeah.
like original title for thatbook was called Taylor Swift.
Like my working title for thebook was Taylor
SPEAKER_00 (28:11):
Swift.
Oh my God.
Do her people know
SPEAKER_03 (28:15):
this?
No, no, I wish.
And
SPEAKER_00 (28:19):
again, cause I kept
thinking, is this, I wasn't sure
if you were serious.
And now, I mean, I go back, Imean, you were always very open
and honest.
It was never anything that was,you know, nasty or mean or
anything else.
So I, I mean, you were genuine,but I didn't know if it was a
genuineness that was part of a,I didn't know if I was part of a
joke, you know?
(28:39):
So I, so it's really, it'sreally cool.
SPEAKER_03 (28:44):
Yeah.
For a couple of years, peoplethought I was, it was still a
joke that I was like some AndyKaufman routine.
I was
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
doing.
I thought you were a comedian.
Okay.
So did you find that, that, canyou read that, that post?
Did you find it?
Okay, good.
Yeah, yeah.
This is...
Yeah.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_03 (29:03):
This was March 2nd,
2015.
And I'll go sit on the floorwearing your clothes.
All that I know is that I don'tknow how to be something you
miss.
Never thought we'd have a lastkiss.
Never imagined we'd end likethis.
Your name forever, the name onmy lips.
(29:25):
I'm like, you know...
People didn't say that wasTaylor Swift.
And they said, this is just apoem that was published in like
New York times or some shit.
People will be like falling allover it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
I love it.
I love it.
No, it's beautiful.
And I, I, I really startedlistening more to Taylor Swift.
Cause I thought, well, I, well,I started listening because of
you.
Cause I thought, well, is theresomething I'm missing?
And then I would capture some ofthat.
And then again, I kept thinking,am I still part of the joke?
Is this, you know, where am I?
(29:56):
But I thought I'm appreciatingit.
And should I come out aslistening to Taylor Swift?
And I guess I'm coming out too.
So I'm listening and listeningto her words.
So I'm coming out too.
SPEAKER_03 (30:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And she put out, you know, twoalbums last year during a
pandemic.
started re-recording her oldalbums because she can't get her
masters back from a reallyscrewed up dude.
So it's like, you
SPEAKER_00 (30:31):
know.
Pretty empowering.
And I know you've surroundedyourself with a lot of empowered
women and you're very supportiveof women, Judy.
SPEAKER_03 (30:40):
Yeah, I've been
lucky.
I've been really lucky.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:46):
Oh, my God.
I love it.
Yeah.
I'm going to do one more thingthat I think is out there.
And you know what I'm going totalk about, but we won't have to
talk about it too long.
But I always I'm a closetbachelor, bachelorette watcher.
And and I know you watched it.
But again, I didn't know if Iwas part of an inside joke for a
long time.
But you would do these amazingthings.
(31:08):
Recaps.
I mean, I think you're betterthan Bachelor Nation.
You're better than anything thatthey are because you have this
honesty that's like, you wouldsay the things that you would
want to, it's like you wantedwhat the characters would, and I
call them characters.
They really were the realitystars, but they were characters
in so many ways.
But I can almost envision thebubble coming out of, you know,
with your words, what you wouldsay the next day when we talked
(31:29):
about, let's say Hannah Brown orsome other past bachelorettes
and so forth.
And so tell me, how did that getstarted?
Did you really watch the show?
Was that part of yourexperiment, like you did with
Taylor
SPEAKER_03 (31:42):
Swift?
Yeah.
I love television.
I love all kinds of television.
SPEAKER_01 (31:49):
So, you know,
Bachelor,
SPEAKER_03 (31:54):
there are shows like
Bachelor that's not so much
about just the show, but aboutthe community of people watching
it, right?
So it's like, so the sharing oflike live tweeting or sharing of
certain things become part ofthe experience of watching it.
(32:18):
And I think in that way, it, itmakes it pretty special.
But the other thing is for me,if you watch reality shows of
any type, not just dating, butlike, Whether it's like, you
know, family that lives out inthe woods in Alaska on the
(32:39):
Learning Channel or some shitlike that.
You'll be able to see wherepolitics is headed in this
country like years before itgets there.
You will be able to see it.
Like...
It was obvious, like, forexample, Trump was going to win
from all the shows I watched onthe plane, all the reality shows
(33:00):
I watched on the plane, which isalways white people wanting to
disconnect from the rest ofsociety because they don't want
to be bothered.
You go, oh, yeah, this is whereit's headed.
So it's kind of a fascinatingthing for me.
So like this year, I skippedBachelor because they had their
first Black Bachelor show.
and it was going to be a racistshit show.
(33:23):
You just knew it was going tobecome a racist shit show from
the history of the show.
And of course it did, whereChris Harrison had to step back
or resign his post because ofthat whole thing about, well,
there's really no problem withthese plantations.
(33:45):
Right?
So it's like, wow, this is sofascinating.
You know, it's like.
SPEAKER_00 (33:51):
Oh yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
So the last, last time I sawyou.
SPEAKER_03 (33:56):
But my heart, my
heart went from Patchler to Love
Island a few years ago.
Love Island is
SPEAKER_00 (34:02):
where it's at.
But isn't that where, that also-
SPEAKER_03 (34:03):
Not Love Island,
Australia, because it's garbage.
Love Island, Australia isgarbage with like garbage
contestants.
SPEAKER_00 (34:10):
But didn't that also
blow up at some point too?
Like their host sadly passedaway or something.
Was that the same show?
SPEAKER_03 (34:18):
Yeah, the original
Love Island, UK, the host died
of suicide.
And it was after some bigscandal hit the British
tabloids.
SPEAKER_00 (34:30):
That's sad.
SPEAKER_03 (34:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:32):
Wow.
So I never really thought aboutthe fact that bachelor is our,
one of our, among our indicatorsof politics in the United
States.
Let's just wrap that up in asoundbite.
SPEAKER_03 (34:41):
Yeah.
I mean, there you go.
SPEAKER_00 (34:44):
What's the soundbite
again?
SPEAKER_03 (34:45):
You heard it here
first.
SPEAKER_00 (34:48):
Oh boy.
SPEAKER_03 (34:49):
If you want to know
who's going to win the election,
watch the bachelor.
SPEAKER_00 (34:53):
There you go.
We don't need, we don't need theLincoln project or any of those.
I mean, we don't need even Foxnews now.
We can just watch the bachelor.
SPEAKER_03 (35:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:04):
I'm going to go.
SPEAKER_03 (35:05):
And all those shows
on the learning channel.
That's the one.
SPEAKER_00 (35:08):
So I'm going to loop
back to away from those
wonderful experience, popculture conversations.
And I'm going to loop back tothe last time I saw you, which
basically ties back to theyellow house.
And again, I love that theworking title of the yellow
house was again, what did youcall it?
The Taylor Swift book or.
I
SPEAKER_03 (35:27):
just
SPEAKER_00 (35:28):
called it Taylor
Swift.
UNKNOWN (35:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:29):
Because it was
inspired.
So you were listening to TaylorSwift when you were writing The
Yellow House.
And that says a lot in a lot ofways.
Now I see after hearing youshare some of her sharing of her
life, I can understand this now.
This book really touched me andwhat you wrote here in a lot of
(35:51):
ways now, but there's anotherwhole Taylor Swift thing that's
just, I have to wrap my headaround.
But because a lot of, this is alot about how, your relationship
with your father?
A lot of it is.
SPEAKER_03 (36:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:07):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (36:07):
yeah.
What's weird is like, yeah, Ialways, I so often think I'm
writing about my mother, butafter I write it and read it, I
realized I was writing about my
SPEAKER_00 (36:19):
father.
That's what
SPEAKER_03 (36:20):
I got.
It's this strange thing that,yeah, it surprises me every time
it happens.
Like, oh, I thought I waswriting about my mom, but No.
So.
Our
SPEAKER_00 (36:32):
parents, it's kind
of interesting.
So about the time that you, thiswas released in 2017.
I think I saw you, that's thelast time I saw you in person
was about right shortly afteryou published this.
And I was on Spring Street.
I saw you and Peter Woods.
I was doing part of my back.
Oh, yeah, I
SPEAKER_03 (36:48):
remember.
I
SPEAKER_00 (36:49):
remember.
Oh, I want a copy of that book.
Yeah.
So you ran back to get a copy.
And somehow we found ourselves.
I think it was during a downtownart walk.
And we found each other againshortly after.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Really excited because you evensigned it to the muse.
You validated me.
And I love that.
But it was about this time whenI saw you.
(37:12):
Yeah.
it was just right when my fatherdied.
And so I got your book.
SPEAKER_03 (37:18):
Oh, wow.
I didn't know.
Oh yeah.
I do remember now.
SPEAKER_00 (37:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I didn't realize what I wasgoing about to be reading.
And so this is, this reallytriggered a lot of emotions.
I had to put it down for a whileand had to go back to look at it
later because it was right afterhe died because you and I, our
parents are, well, your, yourfather was born and raised in in
Korea and immigrated here whenyou were younger.
(37:41):
Do you have a brother?
I have
SPEAKER_03 (37:45):
an older brother.
He's four years older
SPEAKER_00 (37:47):
than me.
SPEAKER_03 (37:48):
He also lives in
downtown.
SPEAKER_00 (37:53):
My father grew up in
a mountain town, Idaho.
Weirdly enough, there's just somany similarities.
I think that's the wonderfulthing about reading and writing
and sharing is that we can findconnections regardless of our
cultural upbringing right um andthere was so much that you
(38:17):
shared about how your fatherinteracted that were is very
similar to my experience with myfather now my mother I didn't
become close to until later,until 10 years ago when I
started photographing and shebecame a painter.
And so I think I had a moresimilar relationship with my
mother as you expressed withyour father, because poetry is
(38:39):
what bonded my father and I.
And we're...
He used to write me poems when Iwas a little girl because I
wouldn't see him.
He'd work full time at night andhe would write me a poem and
leave it in my pillow.
And I would do the same when Iwas in middle school.
It happened for a couple ofyears.
SPEAKER_02 (38:56):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00 (38:57):
And I haven't really
written since then.
And then and then I, it was hardfor me because I think what I
struggle with when I read someof the vulnerability of what you
share with your father is Iremember how you have, it's a
similar relationship than myolder brother.
And I remember watching it andnot being able to help him.
So that's what I feel sometimeswhen I read what you share,
(39:19):
because it wasn't alwaysdirectly how I had the
interaction with my father, butit was also the interaction that
I observed with my older brotherand my father.
And it was just beautiful, butpainful.
Right, right, right, right.
It's a beauty and a pain and apain.
Was it cathartic for you,writing this book?
You
SPEAKER_03 (39:40):
know, I actually got
a lot of the question about
catharsis with the book beforethat, Abductions, because that
book was about our miscarriageand all that.
And, you know...
It would just depend on the day,you know, I was asked that, but
(40:01):
I, the problem with writing itis like, yeah, you feel like
you're writing it out, butbecause you've now written it
down, you, it never dies and itjust loops back.
So there are days when thelooping gets too much.
And then there are days you feellike, Oh, like I did that.
(40:23):
I, I did that.
I spoke about it when you feelkind of at peace with it, but
yeah, a lot of times it justkeeps coming back because you
wrote it and it, you know, andit doesn't hurt any less or, you
know, sometimes it gets evenmore so overwhelming and yeah,
(40:47):
it's, it's a strange kind of athing, catharsis, like, I don't
know if catharsis is a permanentthing or if it just depends on
the day.
Wow,
SPEAKER_00 (40:56):
I'm going to think
about that because that's
really, it's powerful what youjust said in that way.
And I don't think, I don't haveyour first book and I do need to
get it, but I do remember yousharing parts of it online
because I do remember now themiscarriage because that's why I
don't have children.
I wasn't able to have them andgoing through that.
(41:17):
myself years ago, you have to,it's one of those things you
don't normally talk about.
So, and I think it's hard alsofor the father to talk about.
So I look forward to sharingthat painful experience because
I think it's also helpful.
It helps other people.
SPEAKER_03 (41:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was, it was interestingbecause I almost pulled that
book, Abductions, like rightbefore I published it.
And I had to talk with Judyabout it.
Like, how do you feel about thisbook going out?
(42:00):
Because obviously there's thesingular experiences for each of
us as individuals, but it's acollective experience also.
So it's like, I know I'm writingit from the perspective of my
experience, but I don't want tohijack it.
Like I don't want to, steal theexperience and throw it out into
the world without you having asay in it.
(42:24):
So that was a tricky
SPEAKER_00 (42:26):
thing.
Now I'm seeming to recall, andmaybe I'm wrong, but did you
read an excerpt from that fromthe first 90 for 90 in 2014?
I was here.
Yeah, I had.
You
SPEAKER_03 (42:39):
were there.
I hadn't written after that bookcame out.
I hadn't written in a little bitand I hadn't done any readings
but one of my favorite poets inthe world like one of my just
like Douglas Kearney who was inLA who was living in LA at the
(43:02):
time but no longer he had justput out a book called Patter
that was about his family himdealing with.
So when I found out that he hadread my book, it was like, first
of all, it was like, Oh my God,he read my book.
Um, and secondly, it was like,we should do an event together.
Like both of us reading aboutthis topic and then just have a
(43:25):
big conversation about it withpeople.
SPEAKER_00 (43:27):
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (43:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:30):
So with people
sharing your work, it reminds me
of a post that you said twoyears ago, you came across, I
guess, a post from the New YorkUniversity, NYU's Office of
Global Inclusion.
And there was the actor, StephenYoon.
SPEAKER_01 (43:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:49):
And you went, whoa,
he's reading my poem.
Which poem was he reading?
And how did you find out aboutit?
UNKNOWN (43:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:58):
I don't even know
what poem he was reading.
Like I knew nothing about it.
I was like scrolling Twitter oneday and then like, like, because
I was tagged in it, I didn'teven realize I was tagged.
It wasn't like even immediatelyI noticed it.
Like I, it came up and I waslike, what the?
(44:19):
It was, and I was like, holyshit.
How come no one told me aboutthis?
Because the character he playedin The Walking Dead, to me, is
the single greatestAsian-American character to hit
the screen, like in movies, TV,whatever.
It's just the greatest characterof all time.
(44:43):
So yeah, it was like, holy,holy, wow.
So that was like a big thing.
SPEAKER_00 (44:49):
So I'm determined
now to figure out how I can do
this.
But if you, if I picked up thephone right now and I had him on
the phone and you were able totalk with him, what would you
say to him?
Well, what was the first, whichwas the first question?
What did he read?
You want to ask him that?
SPEAKER_03 (45:05):
Like what that,
yeah.
And also like how that cameabout, like whether it was
something like someone selectedand gave to him to read at the
event or something he, I'm like,I just want to know.
I mean, it's like I'm notgrowing up in L.A.
Like you don't get starstruck,you know, you get over that real
(45:26):
quick.
But there's still certain peopleyou're like, holy shit.
SPEAKER_00 (45:31):
OK, so let's make
this a clip.
So basically, I want you to say,hey, Stephen, what point did you
read in blah, blah, blah.
So just go ahead.
You're talking to Stephen.
Go.
SPEAKER_03 (45:44):
So.
Thanks for reading my work atthe event.
Can you tell me what poem youread?
I think it was from theabductions.
And also how that came about,whether you picked it yourself
or someone picked it for you toread.
as a special guest and let's befriends.
SPEAKER_00 (46:04):
I'd love that.
Okay, good.
We'll find out.
I mean, I have some connectionsin Hollywood.
We'll figure it out.
It would really be cool.
I would love to.
And if you do, I want to be afly on the wall in that
conversation.
So I've noticed that you've beendoing a lot of posts lately, and
it looks like it's preliminarywork that's ready for your next
(46:26):
book that's coming out.
And it looks like it's going tobe called, the working title,
maybe it's the final title, isMy Name is Wolf.
Is that the correct title?
SPEAKER_03 (46:37):
Yeah, that's the
title of the book.
And I'm planning on publishingit this summer and releasing it
for free.
in digital format, ebook format,audiobook format, all for free
for download.
Yeah, I just want to see whathappens to the book if I just
(47:04):
don't worry about the part aboutpublisher and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00 (47:08):
Wow.
So I've been reading them.
And again, I keep, it feels likeit's a continuation.
First of all, it sounds like,I'm assuming, to me, it feels
like you're Wolf, okay?
And that you're diving deep inhaving a conversation.
Again, I feel like sometimesyou're talking to your father
again.
Am I totally off base?
SPEAKER_03 (47:30):
Yeah, so The Yellow
House is book two of a trilogy.
So Abductions is book one.
that's the one in abductions Iwrote about the miscarriage from
an alien abduction mythology solike it was the one way for me
to write about it but that ledto identity and immigration as
(47:56):
abduction and all that stuff andthen the yellow house continues
that that's why there's like acharacter in there who's who's
my daughter and she's at it inouter space and that theme still
goes through it.
And so, My Name is Wolf is thethird and final book of that
(48:16):
trilogy.
And it started with the maincharacter being, walking into
the forest to die.
That was the idea I had.
And while, when it goes into theforest to die, he is met with a
voice who teaches him the namesof all the important things that
(48:39):
have been in his life, includinghis own name.
He still dies, but because hewas able to name these things,
including himself, there's apart that's become eternal.
So that was the, that's theconcept of the book.
SPEAKER_00 (48:56):
I love it.
I can't wait.
And so you're going to releaseit this summer.
So do you have a pretty set timeor is it like roughly June, July
kind of leaving it?
SPEAKER_03 (49:04):
Um, not sure.
I'm hoping July, but I'll have abetter sense.
Um, soon, hopefully soon.
Cause I it's, what is it?
March already?
Um, so probably next month I'llstart like putting together all
(49:27):
the pieces are written into somesort of sequence, um,
SPEAKER_00 (49:32):
Okay, so I'm going
to switch gears on you.
I'm going to ask you just to,and this is going to be tough
because you have a lot of, I'msure you have a lot of favorites
and you're going to want to becareful, but name some of your
favorite poets.
Let's start with poets, not justwriters, but poets.
Living and evidently deceased.
Some of
SPEAKER_03 (49:51):
my favorite poets.
Like I'm looking at the books atmy desk right now.
There's Justin Philip Reed.
There's Khadijah Queen.
There's Don Mee Choi, NoRelation.
(50:12):
And then there's like poets whohaven't gotten a lot of
publications or any at all, likewho I've been able to meet over
the past couple of years who Ilove.
And Yeah, like, I don't...
(50:37):
I think I get more...
Like, I have a hard time readingwork by people I don't like.
So, yeah, it's one of thosethings.
So my favorite poets are usuallypeople I've met, who I've gotten
to know, who I really like aspeople.
(50:58):
And then their work becomes moreimportant to me.
SPEAKER_00 (51:04):
What did you think
about Amanda Gorman and her
presentation?
I'm just curious.
You
SPEAKER_03 (51:12):
know, we had her at
the Downtown Book Fest when she
was like 15 or so, when we weredoing the Grand Park Book
Festival.
SPEAKER_00 (51:19):
Oh, yeah.
That's when you sold my bookthere.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (51:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I thought she was great.
I thought she was great.
And like, I mean, my ownpersonal feelings about
inaugural poems is, like, thereshouldn't be any, but that's a
whole different story, right?
Like, I just don't feel likeartists show in line with
(51:41):
presidents.
I mean, that's just a thing.
Like, I used to joke, I waslike, even if my brother became
president and he invited me tocome and read poetry at the
White House, I would say no.
I would say, screw you.
UNKNOWN (51:58):
Wow!
SPEAKER_03 (52:00):
But that's just my
personal feelings on that.
But I mean, I thought she, herperformance was amazing.
You know, for me, I don't knowwhat more you could have asked
for from my inaugural poet.
SPEAKER_00 (52:19):
It was pretty
amazing.
Yeah.
So there's a lot of wonderfulthings that are happening.
You've always been a guy thatnot only are you writing and
you're producing and doing allthe things that you do, but you
always have events.
Not only is, let's start aboutthe event that I'm not doing
with you, because I saw, I'vebeen watching you.
(52:41):
I see that you often like tofulfill a need because I have
seen a lot of discussion on yourposts, like, oh my God, who's
doing, why are they doing itthis way?
And it looks like that the Youhave a Facebook Live program
that's going to be tomorrow,March 3rd, that is called How
Not to Submit Your Points.
(53:01):
And I'm certain it came aboutbecause you finally just said,
okay, I'm very frustrated.
I just want to tell you guys.
So you're doing that tomorrow.
And are you doing it withsomeone else?
Or tell me a little bit aboutit.
SPEAKER_03 (53:10):
Yeah.
It's not how not to submit.
It's how to not submit.
SPEAKER_00 (53:14):
How not to submit.
SPEAKER_03 (53:16):
Because I just
want...
No, how to not submit.
SPEAKER_00 (53:20):
Okay.
It says it differently.
I'm going to change it.
So how to not submit.
SPEAKER_03 (53:24):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Because I just, I'm pushing forpoets to start submitting their
work to editors andpublications.
And I'll go over, you know,we'll discuss like why we don't,
(53:46):
have this process to begin with,what we gain from it, what we
lose from it, what are theoptions, things like that.
Because it's just silly.
I mean, like I was saying aminute ago, I like poetry from
people I like.
So if that's my feeling, whywould I send work to a magazine
(54:09):
where I might hate the editor?
Why do I want someone who Idon't respect judging my
SPEAKER_00 (54:15):
work?
So it's really more about nothow to submit it in terms of
publication.
It's more about saying, listen,you don't need validation by
sending it to someone else totell you that that's a good
point.
So here's another way to getvalid.
SPEAKER_03 (54:29):
Yeah.
And also I want, I want, yeah, Iwant editors and publishers to
actually, you know, sort of likeA&R people in music, right?
Like go out and find thewriters.
Like, go out and find thewriters.
Don't find the writer who'salready been found.
Go out and find the writers.
(54:50):
You know, I shouldn't show upand say, hey, I just discovered
Taylor Swift.
Look, I haven't.
You know what I mean?
So it's like if, you know,publications with all this who
are fortunate enough to havemoney, they want to keep
publishing big names because itmakes their business
(55:11):
publications seem moreprestigious and all that money
just gets circulated within thislittle circle and it's like why
what i mean what work have youdone by asking some big name
poet to send you their work likeyou have done nothing you've
done no work absolutely no workso So
SPEAKER_00 (55:33):
it's saying, and it
really is timely because we're
all learning how to do differentthings.
And we were doing this beforethe pandemic, but now we're
really forced to do it.
More people are forced to do it.
So it's finding different ways,not only to share your voice,
but actually, actually to get itout there.
And I think that's really one ofthe most positive things that
(55:54):
happened in this pandemic isthat we have been, we've grown
in a lot of ways.
And there's certainly someterrible things that have
happened because of this timeperiod, the isolation, but I was
isolated in a lot of ways too,but not forced isolation, but I,
but I've learned so many otherskill sets.
And I think even by yourinnovative way about getting
(56:15):
your work out there, I mean, onone hand, someone's may say,
well, wait, you're not sellingyour book.
How are you going to survive andmake money?
Well, it's not really, it's abalance, you know, it's not
really about making money.
It's getting your work outthere.
And then I remember something myfather said is do something you
love and the money will come.
And it's like, really findsomething that you're passionate
(56:38):
about.
And that's how you'll be able tosupport yourself.
But I mean that you're going tobecome a millionaire, but, but
you'll find it.
SPEAKER_03 (56:47):
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (56:49):
So maybe is, is that
what you're saying?
Cause people are going to say, I
SPEAKER_03 (56:52):
mean, there's a lot
of, no, it's just, I just mean
like, I say this all the time.
I'll discuss this tomorrow islike, If I'm a filmmaker and I
make a movie and I tell theworld, hey, I checked myself
into like, you know, testing newmedication for five hundred
(57:17):
dollars.
I gave I sold like sperm foranother thousand dollars or
whatever the fuck it is.
And I funded this movie.
I shot it myself.
I wrote it.
I edited it.
I'm even acting in it.
I made it for$10,000.
People go, amazing.
(57:38):
You're Robert Rodriguez.
You just made El Mariachi.
You're a fucking genius.
You're brilliant.
Here's all the money you want.
If I'm a musician, I go, I wroteall these songs.
I recorded this myself.
I engineered it.
I...
Worked three jobs to pay forstudio time to record it.
I put out this album on my ownlabel.
(58:00):
I'm selling it on the street.
I'm selling it on Streamic.
It's like, congratulations.
You know, you're like AniDiFranco.
I don't know what the fuck.
You're a true independent.
Writing, if you say, I publishedthis book by myself, they go,
boo.
This is not real art.
This is not real writing.
And it's like, screw you, man.
(58:21):
It's like, why?
Like, why is that still thepolicy?
Like, why is that still theviewpoint on this?
So.
I
SPEAKER_00 (58:31):
love that because I,
same thing with photography, the
same thing, you know, withwriting and photography, people
kind of like, it's like they go,oh, you know, it's like, well,
no, I independently publishedit.
Well, oh, you self-published.
And it's like with disdain.
And it's like, are you?
SPEAKER_03 (58:48):
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (58:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (58:51):
I mean, that's
really when you just want to
like resort to like responseslike your mom.
SPEAKER_00 (59:02):
Yeah, I think that's
it.
SPEAKER_03 (59:05):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (59:05):
it's funny.
That really led us to it.
And it was kind of an impulsivething.
And I think it's because we bothjust like, let's not just talk
about this forever.
Let's get it done.
And that was the decision.
to do this hopefully weeklyseries that's hosted by you on
Clubhouse.
SPEAKER_03 (59:23):
Yeah, I already got
like 15 people who want to be
guests on
SPEAKER_00 (59:27):
it.
And it's called Wolf House.
And I think the description thatyou wrote and we modified to fit
into their little space, but letme just read it to you.
So welcome to Wolf House, aplace for poetry and discussion.
Listen to works by and talk tosome of our favorite poets who
deserve your attention today.
Join us in exploring theircreative worlds.
So that's something we'relaunching.
(59:47):
I'm just going to co-moderate itjust to help bring up the folks.
It's your show.
It's the Chuan Chuan.
show it's obviously wolf housebecause it's tied into my name
is wolf i'm assuming um and umand it's going to be launching
on wednesday nights march 3rd 6p.m pacific 8 p.m central where
(01:00:08):
i'm at and eastern where you are9 p.m and do you want to is it
going to be a what what do youenvision for tomorrow so it's
going to be our inaugural showSo what do you think?
I mean, it could be just aconversation.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00:20):
Probably work.
Yeah, probably working out,Kings.
I'll read some stuff I've beenworking on.
Probably stuff I write today andtomorrow.
And then just talk about what myplans are with the book.
Sort of like different thingsI'm doing and why.
I think I might have a couple ofguest poets on to read their
(01:00:42):
work and just people who I know.
We have a really coolconversation about not just
poetry, but about everything.
And then like, yeah, whateverI'm not, you know, I'm a
Clubhouse newbie, so I don'tknow how things go.
But if there's like a discussiontime and question time, that
(01:01:03):
would be fun.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:04):
Well, I think the
interesting thing is I'm sort of
a newbie, but I'm more less of anewbie than you are.
My experience is, again, havingthree moderators, one host and
two moderators, one that helpswork the room and bring people
on stage, the other to deal withtechnology.
But really, it's whatever formatwe want.
And you're like me.
We both have successfullyproduced live events.
(01:01:26):
And it's just setting up.
And I think that's really what Ienvision for you too, is that
this has room for free flow andfrom flexibility.
But it's an opportunity that Ithink we can just do like a
normal live show that you wouldproduce.
So I'm excited about it.
So it's a nice test for me too.
SPEAKER_03 (01:01:47):
Yeah, me too.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:48):
And I love poetry.
Like you said, I'm not a writer,but I'm a big fan.
And I'm really hoping, I've beentrying to be inspired to write
more.
One of the, I guess, feedback,maybe criticism, really, that I
got when I did my photographybook, gosh, now almost...
eight years ago, based on myphotography over the past
(01:02:08):
decade, was that a friend ofmine said, I wish you had
written how you were feeling,because we can feel it in your
photography.
We feel the emotion, but I wouldlove for you had to say more.
And I've been starting to domore of that.
And so I'm excited aboutlearning how to dig deep and
write more.
And surrounding myself withpoets also is helpful because I
(01:02:31):
love feeling how they feel andhow they articulate because
that's something I'm lookingforward to.
I want to conclude ourconversation with something that
was at the front of the forward,I guess, or at least just
something you wrote in TheYellow House.
And I think it just...
(01:02:53):
is it really ties up really thispart of the conversation, our
conversation today.
And you wrote, I chose poetryover honesty, then lived this
unremarkable life.
SPEAKER_03 (01:03:06):
I think that was one
of the last things I wrote when
I was putting, finishing thatbook.
And actually it was just part,and it continued onto the next
page.
But when I sent the draft to myfriend F.
(01:03:30):
Douglas Brown, who's also anamazing poet, the one note he
gave me is like, break this partoff into a page on its own.
So that's how it starts the bookthat way.
So it reads like a full word,but it's actually the first
(01:03:52):
part.
first lines of the book
SPEAKER_00 (01:03:55):
well it logically
yeah this next one it says there
were times when I wanted toshare all the secrets that I
held on to and I have to tellyou that almost brings me to
tears just that that sectionbecause I grew up in a house of
secrets I married into a houseof secrets and it took me many
(01:04:16):
years living by myself mostly inthe arts district and then did a
of breaking out of that andlearning how to have a voice
because I've been taught to besecretive.
And I love the next part ofthis, you say, but I was so
afraid, and again, this is rightto me, that I'd once again be
(01:04:36):
taken to a new land with roadsigns that I didn't understand,
excuse me, I couldn'tunderstand.
And I start over, excuse me, andstart over, even as time was
running out, all of us gettingolder, my family and lovers and
friends.
This next paragraph really getsme because I had a dream for
(01:04:59):
many years that when I found myvoice, I quit having that dream.
And the dream that I had wasthat I was in this house and And
it had many rooms and I keptgoing into the rooms and I could
never quite get out of it.
And one day I woke up after mydivorce, after so many things
(01:05:24):
had happened to me.
I just moved into the artsdistrict.
I was starting over.
And the last time I had thatdream, I actually got outside of
the door and my father wasthere.
And I never had the dream again.
SPEAKER_02 (01:05:38):
Wow.
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (01:05:42):
But I dreamt it for
decades.
It was like this search.
SPEAKER_02 (01:05:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:05:48):
And then this is the
next paragraph, as you can
imagine why this resonated.
It said the search for the houseof my dreams, haunted the one
that I first saw as a childyellow in the winter of a place
called home.
And that just like this, this,this is a brilliant fricking
(01:06:10):
book.
for many reasons.
SPEAKER_03 (01:06:13):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (01:06:16):
And then this in the
back, I have not clue.
It was Paulette.
I want to say this to you.
This is what I feel like this issomething that my father would
have said to me and maybeparents would have want for
their children.
This is what I want for you.
He said to learn, to stand inthe light and see the storm.
SPEAKER_03 (01:06:39):
Yeah.
It's funny.
I wrote it the opposite wayfirst.
And I realized it wasn't truethat I wrote it to stand in the
storm and see the light.
And I was like, that's not true.
It's the other way you have to.
Yeah.
It was interesting.
(01:07:00):
It's one of those edit thingswhere you go, wow, that's true.
That was really interesting howthat happened.
UNKNOWN (01:07:07):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (01:07:09):
So Chi-Wan, where
would people find, where would
they find things about youpublicly today?
Do you still have your Tumblrwebsite?
Do you still do your, do youhave your own?
SPEAKER_03 (01:07:19):
I have Tumblr where
I just, my Tumblr, I just mostly
just like re-blog like TaylorSwift stuff and cat stuff and
all kind of.
you know, Tumblr stuff andeuphoria stuff.
(01:07:42):
But mostly like Facebook iswhere I'm probably like shared
and not probably, I definitelyshare the most.
And I run Facebook as unfilteredas I can.
That's also something thatstarted as an experiment years
ago.
I actually said to Judy, I'mgoing to, hey i hope it's okay
(01:08:07):
that i'm gonna try to be aspublic as possible on facebook
just to see as an experiencethis was like eight years ago um
she was a teacher at the time soshe had to unfriend me
SPEAKER_01 (01:08:21):
oh my god
SPEAKER_03 (01:08:22):
because you know
people because like teachers
were getting fired for stuffthat their family members were
posting on social media andstuff um Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:08:33):
And obviously you're
on Instagram.
So I kept it up.
SPEAKER_03 (01:08:38):
I'm on Instagram.
SPEAKER_00 (01:08:39):
As Chiwan is only
Chiwan.
And then do you have a websitestill then?
I'm looking to see here.
So, okay.
SPEAKER_03 (01:08:47):
Yeah, the Tumblr is
my website.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:08:50):
Great.
I'm super excited.
Thank you so much.
Is there anything you'd want tosay in closing?
Is there something, a passageyou want to read or anything
that kind of sums up or just astatement?
SPEAKER_03 (01:09:03):
It's good to see
you.
It's
SPEAKER_00 (01:09:06):
really good to
SPEAKER_03 (01:09:08):
see you too.
I don't know many people inHouston, so I've been worried
about you.
SPEAKER_00 (01:09:15):
Well, I want you to
come here.
Before this started, I didn't...
SPEAKER_03 (01:09:21):
Remember, I was
planning on going there.
Remember, I was planning ongoing there.
SPEAKER_00 (01:09:25):
I wasn't going to be
a pandemic podcaster, but what I
was planning to do that youwould have loved, I'd set up my
home here.
My home here reminds me of myloft in downtown Los Angeles,
but two stories.
So the upstairs is all open.
And I had this table that wasmade of wood from my old loft
building.
And it seats six people.
(01:09:47):
And I could have multiple guestson there.
And we could have dinner andfood And the audience can watch
us.
We'd all share a meal and thenwe'd have a live conversation
like a salon.
And that's what I was going todo.
And I think that's what I, Iknow when this pandemic is over,
let's
SPEAKER_03 (01:10:03):
do it.
Let's do it.
So
SPEAKER_00 (01:10:06):
that's why I kind of
got discouraged.
I had all this equipment.
I bought it together and now I'min a closet.
So I'm ready to do that againwhen this is over because I am
fully vaccinated finally.
So that makes me happy.
Are your parents vaccinated yet?
SPEAKER_03 (01:10:22):
They're ready to get
their second shots this week, I
think.
Yeah, they had their first shotlast month and I think they're
getting their second shot eitherthis week
SPEAKER_00 (01:10:33):
or next week.
So maybe next fall, maybe 2022.
Let's be safe.
I mean, let's be real.
But definitely, we'll do thisconversation again and we'll
remember this.
But it's really, I mean, I wantto hug you.
I want to touch the screen andhug you.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:10:51):
But I'm so happy to
see you.
And, you know, I kept wanting todo this project and maybe we
still, I need to do it.
You've really inspired me again.
But I think one of theconversations I had with you two
years ago now was that I wantedto pair my photography with
poets, see if any of it, youknow, what does that photograph
(01:11:12):
inspire in terms of their wordsor impact?
What do they feel?
And I still want to do thatproject.
SPEAKER_03 (01:11:18):
Yeah, you should
definitely do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:11:23):
Okay.
Well, this is it, Tim.
I'm doing it.
We're clubhousing and we'llfigure it out and then we'll do
it this way.
We can move.
Clubhouse is really awesome, butyou can't record the
conversation.
So what I think would be nice ismaybe we can continue this
conversation.
We can also pair it with anInstagram live as well, or a
(01:11:44):
Facebook live.
So it kind of gets audiences aswell.
So I'd be open for that.
Maybe.
SPEAKER_03 (01:11:50):
Yeah.
I'm
SPEAKER_00 (01:11:52):
done.
I look forward to learning aboutsome of your favorite poets and
learning from you.
There's a couple people that Iknow.
My poet base is not as strong asyours, so I'm looking forward to
expanding my world.
I do have a nice couple of LosAngeles poets that I really
like.
(01:12:13):
I'll have to see if you knowthem.
SPEAKER_03 (01:12:15):
You should get this
book.
It's
SPEAKER_00 (01:12:17):
called Wild Peach.
It's by...
S is it?
SPEAKER_03 (01:12:22):
Sean.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12:23):
Oh, Sean.
I mean, it's Sean, but he writesit like that.
Okay.
I'll get that.
SPEAKER_03 (01:12:28):
Because he's a
photographer.
He's a photographer and a poet.
So yeah.
And he just got like, I thinkhe's a finalist for the pen
award.
Wow.
For a pen award this year forthat book.
And he's like super
SPEAKER_00 (01:12:47):
sweet.
I've never been trained to writepoetry, really.
So is there something you wouldrecommend to someone like me who
I feel I'm a good writer, but isthere an art of it?
SPEAKER_03 (01:12:58):
Write it like a
journal.
No, just write it like you wouldwrite a journal and then break
the lines afterwards.
UNKNOWN (01:13:07):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (01:13:07):
Oh, so you don't
have to have a rhyme all the
time.
Like little Susie Q went to thestore.
SPEAKER_03 (01:13:14):
No, just write it
like a journal and yeah.
And then break the lineafterward.
SPEAKER_00 (01:13:19):
Okay.
That's, and that's your, that'sthe best advice again is write
it like a journal and break thelines afterwards.
SPEAKER_03 (01:13:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:13:28):
And then I can
become a poet.
SPEAKER_03 (01:13:32):
Yeah.
And no one will know that you,that's what you did.
Don't just.
SPEAKER_00 (01:13:36):
Okay.
You know, I'm going to share,I'll share it with you later to
see if I'm successful.
Okay.
Thank you so much.
I'm going to stop recording andwe can talk a little bit about.
Thank you.