September 15, 2021 • 61 mins
Artist Margaret García says “her work provides a look at my community through the presence of the individual” and her desire is for her work “to be pertinent and meaningful.” She is the featured artist in this episode of the inaugural “Son Cuatro: In Conversation” podcast series co-hosted by art advocate Cheech Marin with Todd Wingate, Director of Exhibitions and Collections at Riverside Art Museum; Anna Bermudez of Museum of Ventura County; and and arts marketing specialist Melissa Richardson Banks of CauseConnect, the producer and moderator of this series who also manages Marin's notable Chicano art collection.
The post SON CUATRO: Cheech in Conversation with Margaret Garcia appeared first on CauseConnect.
Check out more in-depth articles, stories, and photographs by Melissa Richardson Banks at www.melissarichardsonbanks.com. Learn more about CauseConnect at www.causeconnect.net.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Welcome
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
to Son Cuatro, In Conversation.
This series is presented byRiverside Art Museum, also known
as RAM, leading up to itsopening of the Chich Marín
Center for Chicano Art andCulture, a.k.a.
The Chich.
I'm Melissa Richardson-Banks,and today there are four of us
who will be in conversation withartist Margaret Garcia.
(00:35):
Todd Wingate, Director ofExhibitions and Collections at
the Riverside Art Museum.
Ana Bermudez, who is the ChiefCurator at the Museum of Ventura
County.
And the incomparable CheechMaureen, entertainer, filmmaker,
comedian, collector, artadvocate, and just lots of fun.
Now, before we start, I wantedto share that I've had the
(00:57):
pleasure of working with Cheechfor nearly 20 of his 40 years of
collecting.
It is because of him that I havebecome a collector of some sort.
And on this very date, 16 yearsago, my own path to collecting
began with my first purchase,which was a painting by Margaret
Garcia.
Now, what she astutely knew, andI naively did not at the time,
(01:21):
was that I would fall in lovewith her Ere Libre painting
after she generously allowed meto hang it on my wall so that
clients could see it.
Well, it never left my walluntil I decided that it needed
to go to Cheech because I knewhe would take care of it and it
would go to a major museum.
And now we have the Cheech.
(01:42):
Todd?
SPEAKER_02 (01:42):
Good afternoon.
So when Margaret talks about herwork, she says that her work
provides a look at her communitythrough the presence of the
individual and that her desireis for her work to be pertinent
and meaningful.
She's a teacher, she's a mentorto many young artists who are
just starting their careers andher work has been exhibited in
group shows throughout theUnited States and in Europe.
(02:03):
Although she doesn't considerher work overtly political, over
time she's come to realize thatmany of her portraits belie the
stereotypes given to any oneculture by the media.
In addition to her portrayals ofsensual women of mixed race,
many of her street scenes andlandscapes that depict her
Highland Park neighborhood arein Cheech's collection.
Currently, Cheech has over 30artworks by Margaret in the
(02:24):
collection.
Her most known work in thecollection is Janine at 39,
Mother of Twins.
So I have a question to startwith Cheech.
Cheech, how and when did youmeet Margaret and what is it
about Janine at 39 in particularthat is so compelling to you and
will be to other viewers?
SPEAKER_00 (02:43):
You know, it seems like I've known Margaret from
the very beginning of I startedcollecting, you know, because
she was in that group of LApainters that were very prolific
as she has remained to this day,which I think accounted for her
being the most improved painterof any painter that I have.
(03:04):
I've seen her progress over theyears and not only what she
does, but how she does it hasintrigued me because the
technique has become preeminent.
I'm not preeminent, but it'sreally important because I've
seen her develop it over theyears and when it's applied to
the subject matter her ownneighborhood and I don't know if
(03:24):
there's anybody in my collectionthat depicts their neighborhood
as accurately and as colorfullyand as wonderfully as Margaret
does I think the key to hersuccess and her renown as it
were is because she does paintevery day And you find those
(03:47):
great painters do it.
And they paint almost every day,you know, unless they have to go
to their parole officers oranything like that again.
But every day, you know, and yousee the progress.
That's the great thing aboutcollecting a lot of works of
Margaret.
You see the market progress ofthe ability and the insight as
to what the paintings mean.
(04:08):
And that has increased over theyears.
Janine in 39, I think it was...
In the Chicano Visions tour,which went to 14 major museums
over a seven-year period oftime, all the way from the
Smithsonian to LACMA to SanDiego Museum, the Young at San
(04:31):
Francisco.
of all the paintings in thecollection that were exhibited
then, Jeannie in 39 was theoverwhelming favorite of
everybody who's came in to seethe show.
And it really told me a lotabout the process of people
viewing art in the tour, youknow, because I don't think the
general audience looked at herwork as some kind of
(04:54):
intellectual, academic analysisof responding to the emotion of
the painting, you know, and thatwhich is what I did too, you
know.
Janina, 39 months, mother oftwins, is for me the definition
of fecundity.
It's like this woman is ripesitting in the lap of an agave
(05:17):
and a rocking chair.
It took me a long time to seethat that chair was, oh, those
roses are on the chair.
But it's, you know, it's...
Her paintings tend to be lush.
And I think everybody thatreally loves paintings responds
to lushness because of thenature of the quality of paint.
(05:39):
It was confirmed by everybodyvoting for it.
Because we asked that specificquestion.
What is the painting that yourespond to most?
And it always came up, Jeannie,the 39 mother of twins.
Told me a lot, you know, becauseit's like as a comedian, you can
step on the stage and you thinkyou got a good joke going and
you tell the joke and they don'tlaugh.
(05:59):
Well, it ain't funny.
They laugh.
It's funny.
No matter how much you want itto be funny or how much you
think it's funny, it's the samething with paintings.
You put it in front of peopleand they react.
It's a very visceral thing thathappens.
And I've seen it happen over andover again.
So Margaret's paintings are someof my favorite in the collection
(06:23):
because I can...
not only stare at them a longtimes, but they remind me of
neighborhoods that I knew frommy childhood.
And I think that's, whether it'sin the state of California or in
the state of Florida, peoplerespond the same way.
It's amazing how that reactiongoes.
So I'd like to ask you a coupleof questions, Margaret, if you
(06:44):
are ready.
Okay, so here's the one primaryquestion.
Why did you become an artist?
SPEAKER_05 (06:53):
I came home from school with my crayon drawing
and my dad said, oh, you're anartist.
And I thought, oh.
Cool.
I'm an artist.
I like that.
SPEAKER_06 (07:01):
How old were you?
SPEAKER_05 (07:03):
Kindergarten, maybe five.
Grandma had a lot of art books.
She had drawings.
She had paintings.
SPEAKER_00 (07:09):
Your father and your grandmother were both painters?
SPEAKER_05 (07:12):
No, my grandmother, she knew how to draw.
My dear uncle Charlie bought hersome paintings and we had them
in the living room.
So we had art in our house whenI was a kid and it was original.
So they weren't reproductions.
I mean, we actually had art.
But I wanted to ask yousomething because it kind of,
(07:37):
you know, I hear you talk abouthow you went to school and you
did the ceramics and you showedthe teacher and the teacher
went, Oh, you'll never be anartist.
And you let it go.
And I hear that, and I feel likeyou got robbed.
Because let me say this, andit's really important to the way
(08:00):
that I work.
Talent is an overrated concept.
It isn't talent.
It's hard work.
It's about having the fire inyour belly and deciding that you
have a vision that you want toimpart.
You may not be real good, but ifyou keep doing it and keep doing
it, you get good.
And it has to do more with thevision and what you have to
(08:24):
impart or say than whether ornot you have that talent.
Because nobody's born walking orrunning or talking.
You learn, you know.
And I've worked in the prisonsand with gangs and other people.
And...
That is a discouragement becauseI think that sometimes the art
(08:47):
teacher doesn't have a clueabout your cultural background
or what you come from or whatyour experience is.
And, you know, they'reeliminating competition, Cheech.
You know, that's not supposed tobe their job.
Their job is to teach you, notto eliminate the competition.
(09:10):
Because look, you know, you sayI'm the most improved.
Let me say this.
I leave the door open toevolving forward, always.
And I don't get stuck on justusing iconography.
Because iconography, even thoughI will use it, it'll turn into a
(09:34):
cliche.
And cliches become stereotypes.
And so I don't want to be acliche or a stereotype.
We're more complex than that.
That's why I like
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
the portrait.
You've done well in that.
I have a lot of your portraitsand I can see the difference in
them all the time.
So what set you on this creativepath other than you wanted to
draw and very soon you'rerecognizing yourself that you
had the ability to do it and toprogress in that.
But what set you on thiscreative path that this is the
way I'm going to live my life.
(10:06):
I'm going to be an artist, whichis an incredible statement,
especially at a younger age.
when you go forward to enter afield that is extremely hard to
make a living at?
SPEAKER_05 (10:22):
I didn't enter the field with the idea that I was
going to be an artist and make aliving at it.
I entered the practice ofdrawing and painting because I
wanted to see if I could getgood at it for myself, not for
the public, not for a gallery,not for a museum, because the
(10:45):
first person I needed to dealwith was me.
And having the practice likepainting and drawing is like
having the practice of writingor singing or playing the piano.
It becomes a part of your life.
It is your practice.
It is your discipline.
It's the thing that you dothat...
(11:06):
makes your life.
It's the way I live my life.
I think that it's a way toexpress myself, to express the
visions that I have in terms ofbeauty and harmony and the
beautiful things I see in otherpeople and in my community.
I'm lucky.
(11:29):
I feel really, really lucky thatI'm a Chicana.
I love my culture and I love Theexpressiveness of the music, of
charo music, of mariachi, of thecolorful costumes and the
colorful nature of the weavingsthat come from Mexico, I love
(11:50):
that stuff.
So I'm in the right place forwho I
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
am.
Yeah, you are in the right placefor who you are.
Is it your neighborhood thatinspires you as an artist?
I mean, are the people or arethey both one in the same?
SPEAKER_05 (12:04):
I grew up in Boyle Heights.
Boyle Heights has always been avery mixed neighborhood.
There's a lot of Chicanos here,but there were also lots of
Japanese and Jewish and Russian.
And there were Chinese andAfrican-Americans and everybody
It was a mixed bag.
And there was such a degree oftolerance.
(12:24):
Tolerance in terms of theteachers that I had because I
had African-American teachersand Jewish teachers and Japanese
teachers.
I had all kinds of teachers.
So I had that exposure becausethat's Boyle Heights.
You know, if you love life, youlove beauty, if you love your
culture, you know...
I think art is the way that wedefine who we are.
(12:46):
And I like the history that goeswith it.
So I've worked with historianBill Mason, who did 30 years at
the Museum of Natural History.
We did a project at the Campo deCahuenga Universal Metro
Station, where I did a historiclandmark.
And I got to totally get intothat.
(13:09):
And it was all about the...
mestizaje of people that camehere and founded LA.
So I love history.
I love the art.
And, you know, just being alive.
SPEAKER_00 (13:20):
Did you have any particular mentor or teacher
that kind of guided you alongthe path?
SPEAKER_05 (13:27):
You know, in high school, I had a teacher named
Roberto Chavez, who was ateacher over at ELAC.
And he actually was teachers toMagoo.
And a few other people, OpheliaEsparza.
So there were a whole number ofChicano artists that went
through that ELAC group.
(13:47):
And I lived across the streetand would go there on Tuesday
nights and join his drawingclass.
He let me audit it.
And I wasn't enrolled.
He said, just come in.
Just draw.
Just draw.
SPEAKER_00 (14:00):
Cool.
That is...
Has he passed on or are youstill in contact?
SPEAKER_05 (14:05):
No, no.
He's living in Arizona.
He recently had a show at ELACat the Vincent Price and he had
a nice catalog and I went thereto see them.
We had a lecture on him.
I think he's still alive.
I hope he's still.
Who knows with the pandemic?
I don't know what the pandemictook out right now.
(14:25):
I'm
SPEAKER_00 (14:25):
surprised that I'm alive.
SPEAKER_05 (14:28):
Hey,
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
please hang in there.
It's amazing.
I mean, we've just gone througha singular time in our history
where we, the whole nation,actually the whole world has
been quarantined and we're goingto, it's my feeling that we're
going to come out of thisessentially changed.
The things are going to be donedifferently as we go forward,
(14:50):
faster, more streamlined, moreefficient, more inclusive, more,
make it harder to exclude thanwe have been before and I think
that is a great thing for thecountry and Because we have to
learn how to do things moreefficiently and how to spread.
the effects that we want to seehappen in the world now with the
(15:14):
advent of the internet and othersources like that.
It's going to move very fastnow.
You could be walking down thestreet in Nigeria with a click
of a button on your computer andthat's, you know, knowledge of
all other cultures are beingexchanged extremely fast right
now.
I mean, some of the works thatI...
(15:39):
that I possess of yours, I mean,there's not a Chicano in sight,
you know?
Willie Middlebrook, the portraityou did of Willie Middlebrook is
like still one of my favoritethings because it's just like,
wow, that color, you know, thatdarkness.
Because I went to, I was in aschool for the fourth grade in
(16:00):
South Central LA where themajority of the students were
black.
And you see all those kinds offusions like you were talking
about, Boyle Heights, there areall kinds of races and
categories of people in there.
So you kind of grow up withthat.
And so you can, you can,appreciate the otherness rather
(16:22):
than dismiss
SPEAKER_05 (16:24):
it yes you know it's like a unique flower you know
like orchids you put this orchidtogether with that orchid and
you get something totallydifferent that neither looks
like but it is this beauty thatyou know she looks kind of china
no she looks moreafrican-american i mean there's
a little bit of all of that andit's so unique i mean people
(16:46):
look so unique in one way i'msaying where a community and
then another I'm also saying butwithin the community there are
so many people that are uniqueand contribute and the other
thing is when you do a portraitif you're doing a portrait you
(17:06):
can break stereotypes becauseyou know, being part of
Hollywood that, you know, you'reeither, you know, a housekeeper,
a gangbanger, a prostitute orwhatever.
SPEAKER_00 (17:19):
I was never a prostitute.
I want to discourage thatthought.
SPEAKER_05 (17:22):
Well, I saw you wearing those tights.
SPEAKER_00 (17:23):
Prostitute adjacent.
SPEAKER_05 (17:26):
But you know, the thing is, you know, the
stereotypes about who we are,they are stereotypes because in
all of that collection, there'steachers and filmmakers and you
know curators and maybe acomedian now and then but I mean
you know where the whole rangeit isn't that that we have to
(17:47):
omit people or not be honestabout what's part of our
community But there's so muchmore in our community.
You know, doctors and nurses andmy brother's a doctor.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
You know, the other quality that you have of your
work that I really, reallyappreciate and it's why I...
collect paintings is becausejust the quality of paint the
paint is a wonderfully elasticmedium that can be opaque or
translucent or transparent ormalleable or thick or thin and
(18:25):
it's just that's why paintingshave to be seen in person and I
learned that very early in myart experience that I would go
to museums at a very young ageand get up as close to the
paintings as I possibly couldand even over many hundreds of
years that quality remains insome paintings but I mean it's
like it's like having a reallythick wonderful sauce that you
(18:49):
can put on anything you knowit's like you can taste it you
can feel it you can I mean whenthey're not looking you can
touch it I
SPEAKER_05 (18:59):
like my paint when it's almost like frosting you
know thick and there's textureyeah
SPEAKER_00 (19:05):
you know the thickness of it and that's kind
of what Chicano has in It's kindof an essential quality.
How difficult is that to do, youknow, to work in the thickness
of paint rather than the graphicdesign of it?
SPEAKER_05 (19:19):
It's my nature now.
I've been making my paint sothick for a long time.
I never throw out a paintingthat I don't like.
I just paint over it.
So I build the surface of thepainting and I like painting on
wood because there's moretension between the brush and
(19:39):
and the surface of the panel andyou can carve with it.
You can mold the surface of thatpaint better than you can if
it's on canvas.
When you put it on canvas, thecanvas kind of gives and sucks
up the fluidity of the paint andit doesn't.
On wood, it stands up and youcan really make that texture
(20:04):
come alive.
SPEAKER_00 (20:05):
I remember you had that conversation with me when I
asked you that specific questionone time in the past.
I said, why did you paint thisone on wood and not on canvas?
You explained that you canpush...
the paint better on wood in someinstances than you can on
canvas, you know?
So it's a real kind of, youknow, a wall to throw the ball
against.
(20:25):
Sometimes it comes off fast,sometimes slow, and sometimes
you have to hit it harder.
You know, it's a real, but thetechnique, the technique of
learning how to paint, I thinkis something that identifies the
Chicano school of painting, youknow, because it's not just the
thought that counts, it's theexecution of the thought that is
really important.
Todd, she got questions.
SPEAKER_02 (20:44):
You got questions.
Earlier today, you talked aboutleaving the door open to
evolution in your work, which Ithink is really interesting.
And so as you think about theevolution of your work over your
career, has it been intentionalor intentional?
By happenstance, have you justlet sort of your views and
(21:09):
inspiration drive you?
How would you talk about theevolution in your work?
SPEAKER_05 (21:15):
Well, it's very premeditated because I got
tired.
Listen, you know, I love the Dayof the Dead.
I love Frida Kahlo, you know,Cinco de Mayo, the Virgen of
Guadalupe, and the farm workerflag.
I love all of it.
And I have no problem using it.
(21:37):
But we're so much more complex.
And when you're talking aboutsomething that's really personal
and intimate about yourself,then you have to traverse
something that's reallydifficult.
You have to challenge yourself.
If I paint a calavera for 40years and I just keep whipping
(21:57):
them out, they're going to lookgreat.
They look fine.
It's very decorative.
It's pretty.
It's nice.
But the truth is that it becomesa cliche because you're not
really digging deep.
You have to dig deep.
And, you know, if you have theseicons that you rely on, you
(22:17):
know, I've done wild dogs.
I've done chili peppers.
I've done Day of the Dead.
I've done Frida Kahlo.
I've done the Virgin ofGuadalupe.
And I might even do them again.
But the thing is that thecomplexity of how I feel about
as a human being, as a spirit,as a spiritual quest, means that
I have to challenge myself.
(22:39):
And challenging myself meansthat I have to be willing to
fail.
I have to be willing tochallenge myself to fall down
and fail and get up and do itagain.
Because if you're always onpoint, if everything you do is
perfect and wonderful and younever make a mistake, that means
(22:59):
you're not challenging yourself.
If you're challenging yourself,that means you have to be
willing to fall down.
You have to be willing to fail.
Somebody who's doing somethingthat they can do in the snap of
a button because it's easy,they're resting on their
laurels.
They're not challengingyourself.
(23:20):
So for me, it isn't just, yeah,my next painting is a better
painting.
Always.
But if you're talking aboutevolving as a human being, not
just as an artist, but as ahuman being and a person who has
perhaps emotional and spiritualgrowth to make your purpose in
(23:41):
life, then you have to challengeyourself and be willing to fall
now.
And I see a lot of art and a lotof it's really beautiful and
decorative.
And I go back to what JosephCampbell said.
There's three kinds of art.
There's decorative, there's artthat's made out of gold and it
has a lot of man hours.
(24:03):
And then there's art that whenyou look at it, it gives you an
understanding of the humancondition.
It gives you an epiphany aboutthe condition that you're in or
your environment, or it sayssomething to you that you can
relate to in your heart and youcan see it.
That's the challenge.
(24:25):
So I will always continue toimprove.
But I like the word evolvebecause...
It isn't that I'm not good whereI'm at.
I mean, I could stay put whereI'm at and do the same thing
over and over again.
I would be very unhappy.
SPEAKER_02 (24:42):
One of the things Cheech talks a lot about is that
the artists in his collectionare often painting news from the
front, sort of reallydocumenting neighborhoods and
finding the inspiration in thoseneighborhoods and communities
and really sort of saying,here's what's happening in my
house, on my street, in mycommunity.
(25:03):
And You do that quite frequentlyand fluidly, and it's really
extraordinarily beautiful.
I'm curious about inspiration insome of your work, most notably
or most recently, the firepaintings.
So you've got a series of firepaintings that come at a time
where other artists have donesome different versions, not
(25:24):
anywhere near the same, but lotsof artists working with fire.
I think about Sandy Rodriguezand some of the fire paintings
that she did that came beforethe Florentine Codex work that
she's doing.
So what is the inspirationbehind your fire paintings?
I think that they're reallyextraordinary.
SPEAKER_05 (25:46):
I went up to Ventura to visit Anna and I asked her to
take me up to where the Thomasfire was.
But even before that, I had donethis painting and it was one of
the reasons I did that onepainting called Premonition.
Where I was just fascinated byfire and I painted this palm
(26:07):
tree on fire and the sparks werefalling all over this truck.
I don't think you've seen thatone, Cheech.
It's gone.
And then I did another onecalled Premonition.
And the thing is that it was, Iwant to say almost like
something in my dreams.
I needed to go back and I neededto look for those things.
(26:30):
And then all of a sudden there'sa fire season and all these
fires came about.
I like to paint in my cadmiums.
I want to see how hot I get it.
And oftentimes I seefire-painted...
(26:52):
But there's always this kind ofdullness to it.
And it's not very viscous.
And I wanted the paint to bealmost like crackling of the
sparks that came off that tree.
I wanted it to glow and have aluminosity.
And oil paint, more thanacrylic, has the ability to do
(27:15):
that sort of luminous glow.
So you feel like the glow iscoming from the bottom layer of
the paint.
And that's what I was trying tomaster on that.
So I just got as many fires as Icould and started painting them.
I kind of agree with CarlosAlmaraz.
I have to give him a nod becauseI became aware of his work in
(27:39):
83.
And you ask about who influencesme, but I have to tell you,
yeah.
I saw his show up at theMunicipal Art Gallery in 84 and
I was like, oh my God.
Blown away.
I like fire.
SPEAKER_02 (27:55):
Well, you capture it in a really powerful way with
this incredible amount ofmovement in there.
It's not static.
They're just very live andreally, really brilliant.
So I have another question in adifferent direction.
And we're seeing scholarshipnow, writing the sort of
(28:16):
documents, the continued...
lack of representation ofLatino, Latinx artists in the
major markets.
And so as you think about yourcareer, are there surely
challenges, but also what havebeen the opportunities for you
(28:38):
that you've experienced as anartist in gaining recognition
for your work?
SPEAKER_05 (28:41):
I just started by doing what I wanted to do.
I had gone through sometraumatic experiences and was
not really good at functioningin terms of like going out and
holding down a job.
I couldn't even do it.
And I had a good friend, GlennaAvila, who hired me to work at
the photo center.
(29:02):
And I was able to work with alot of photographers.
That's where I met WillieMiddlebrook.
And photography really impactsyour sense of composition.
And I got involved with...
photojournalism the there was agroup of Chicano photographers
(29:23):
that had gotten the Pulitzer andWillie Middlebrook who had
gotten the NEA and so these guysbecame my my support my they
were I want to say Willie kindof mentored me as well as a
number of other people JoseBarrera who just passed away
from this like a few months agofrom this pandemic.
(29:48):
And the content of the work interms of being, it isn't like a
drive-by.
There are people who arephotographers and they kind of
drive by and take a shot.
You have to engage you, you haveto relate and you have to have a
conversation with that person.
(30:08):
It isn't just a drive by, youknow, rape and pillage kind of
photography, but one that hasmeaning because you've had an
interaction and it, and, andyour work is evidence of it.
And that's what I wanted.
You know I didn't, I didn't wantto do the same thing over and
over again.
You know, I don't, I don't wantto do 2,000 calaveras and 400
(30:33):
Frida Kahlo's.
I mean, I love them.
I love her.
And that's cool.
And sometimes when you hit awall, it's nice to use that
iconography to break free fromwhatever it is that's holding
you back in terms of digging in.
But once you dig in, then youstart going for the more
personal things.
You have to bare your soul.
(30:58):
You have to show what you reallylove, what means something to
you.
What do you care about?
I mean, why are you taking thetime to paint that if it doesn't
mean anything to you?
It's really hard for me tolisten to the news these days.
I don't want to bear witness tothat anymore.
(31:19):
And the other thing is, ifyou're so against something, you
have to show what you're for,right?
I get that we're all against thewar, but you have to show that
you're in favor of peace.
You're in favor of beauty, infavor of learning, in favor of
giving somebody a hand up, oflooking at humanity and being
(31:40):
able to see the humanity inthose eyes.
It isn't just another mask oranother face, but that you
relate to that person on apersonal level.
There are times when people sitfor me and they don't understand
what I'm doing and they don'tconnect.
They look behind me.
They look around me.
(32:01):
You talk to them.
They don't make eye contact.
And sometimes it just doesn'twork because they're nervous.
I make them nervous.
I'm not trying to, but that'sjust the way it is.
And so sometimes it's about amoment.
You know, you're not justpainting a face, a body.
You're painting the moment, theair, the atmosphere, the social
(32:26):
engagement that you have.
It isn't just a likeness.
You were talking
SPEAKER_04 (32:31):
with Todd about this and how some artists, and you
and I have had the discussionbefore about how some artists
get stuck in a niche subjectmatter, but that is so not you.
So my first question to you is,so what's next?
Where does your work go fromhere?
(32:51):
You
SPEAKER_05 (32:51):
know, I used to paint pretty fast.
You know, if I cut out sixpaintings a day, I thought I was
doing good.
And now it's like one paintingand it's like, Two months later,
I'm still working on that samepainting.
And I'm just in a differentpoint of evolution.
I'm looking to see how far I cantake it.
(33:14):
And I'm giving it a lot moretime.
Before I used to give myselflimits.
Okay, you've got an hour, paintit.
And then kind of let go becauseI...
I don't want to overwork things.
I see things that getoverworked.
(33:34):
And so you have to be able tolet go in phases.
And now that I'm 70, there'sother things that I want to see
there.
I want to convey my sense ofbeauty in terms of what I see
around me.
And, you know...
(33:56):
I have to say, and it's like oneof the most important things to
me in my life, my existence isto be able to open the door for
somebody else.
You know, the other people onhere don't don't know this, but
like you've opened up thepavilion to exhibit a lot of the
people I just mentored becausetheir work is really phenomenal.
(34:20):
And I like surrounding myselfwith really good, tough people
who work hard because they throwthe gauntlet down and they just
force you to be better.
And it's that camaraderie thatsort of sustains me.
It's that conversation.
You know, David Fleury is a partof that.
(34:44):
And of course, there are plentyof people who aren't Chicano
that are a part of it.
But because it's not exclusive.
And the other thing that Ireally care about right now is
women artists.
I want to make sure that theydon't feel trapped, that they
can figure out a way to workthemselves out of whatever that
(35:06):
trap is that's holding them backfrom being able to succeed.
We all have a different path.
It's not all the same path.
But being able to createeconomic sustainability, doing
the thing that you love isimportant.
So I'd like to see more womenhave that opportunity because
they develop better.
(35:26):
Yeah, there's a whole lot ofstuff on that that I could touch
on, but we'll talk for anotherhour.
So I don't want to do that.
But
SPEAKER_04 (35:39):
yeah, more women.
Thank you.
And I know that even with thepandemic in the way of this
upcoming exhibit that we havehappening in October, you've
taken the time, the short timethat you had before the pandemic
to mentor some of our femaleartists here in Ventura County
as well.
And it is so much appreciated.
(35:59):
And we all thank you for that.
SPEAKER_05 (36:02):
Thank you.
I haven't had much opportunityto meet with with them, I'm
hoping I get more time.
SPEAKER_04 (36:09):
Well, they're looking forward to that.
So you and I spent lots ofpre-pandemic time together,
either in the car, drivingsomewhere, sharing a meal right
after the Thomas fire.
And we've had several studiovisits with you as well, not
(36:31):
just myself, but my family.
And I have to tell you thatevery time I visit your studio,
I love going there because it'sjust such a nondescript building
and you get there and you arriveand it's, you open the door and
it's just full of color, color,just color everywhere.
all over your studio, purplewalls, orange walls.
And it's just, it makes me smileevery time I walk in there,
(36:55):
whether it's the landscapes onthe wall, the night scenes with
the street vendors, theportraits that are challenging
you to make that eye contactwith them.
It's just such an enticing candystore of art.
I just love it.
So my question to you now iswhat are you working on now
SPEAKER_05 (37:19):
i'm working on my show for you and ventura i have
this one painting that's beenkicking my butt from one end to
the other and i've put a lot ofwork into this one particular
painting that's kind of largeand uh you know i'm taking some
cues i want to say or clues fromuh I want to say Monet, his
(37:44):
brushwork, you know, thatbusyness, that chaotic busyness.
And then it makes sense becausethe brush strokes are succinct
and to the point and on target.
And yet it looks chaotic, butit's not.
And I'm trying to make the painta little thicker.
(38:05):
Of course, my palette's muchbrighter now.
than his ever was.
But I stick to that becausethat's my inheritance of being
Chicana is the bright color.
SPEAKER_04 (38:17):
Well, we don't want to show that painting to Cheech
just yet because we don't wanthim to grab that up before we
go.
So I want to talk to you alittle bit about the art exhibit
that we're having at the museum,Arte para la Gente.
So I want to preface it bysaying that as a curator, and I
think Todd, you can relate tothis as well, I need to get to
(38:39):
know an artist and what they'reabout before I can actually do
an exhibit of their work.
I can't curate an exhibitwithout getting that backstory
from the artist and I think it'spart of my precocious nature
being an only child and havinggrown up with just adults in the
house that just, I have thatcuriosity about people and
(39:00):
Margaret has been so open abouther life with me and one of the
first things that she sharedwith me was her her grandma
Ruth's story and the impact thatyour grandmother had on your
work.
And I know that she just talkedto you about what influenced
your work, but that story issuch a dear story where you have
(39:22):
this grandmother that tells you,yes, you can do this.
And I think it's reallyinfluenced the way that we're
presenting this exhibit at themuseum.
Do you want to talk a little bitabout how this exhibit came
about.
Why did you want us to do thisexhibit for you?
SPEAKER_05 (39:43):
Well, I've been going back and forth to Ventura
County, first with Cafe Ane,with Armando over there.
So I was getting to know thecommunity a little better.
And then Vanessa Acosta and BigX, you know, invited me out.
He did some harp playing there.
So I got to know the community alittle better.
(40:05):
And I feel that there's moreopportunity in the outskirts
because there's a lot ofcommunity there.
Joyce Chavez.
There's people from the RebosoFestival.
People that connect with thework that I'm doing.
And...
(40:28):
I just think the opportunity isa little more open.
You guys are more supportive ofme.
I can't see myself dealing withLACMA.
Cheeched out with LACMA, I don'tknow how long it took him to get
that show.
They have bigger fish to fry.
(40:49):
There's a lot more people.
I'd rather go someplace where Ijust feel a little more at home.
It is that.
As far as my grandmother isconcerned, you know, grandma
used to pick me up at school andtell the nurse I had a doctor's
appointment.
We'd go to the horse track andbet on the horses, you know, and
(41:11):
she would take me out.
She was, my mother called her alibertina y callejera.
And yeah, me too.
And yeah.
I looked at her as my rolemodel.
She was a nurse over there atCounty General, and I think she
was the backbone of my family.
I felt like that was what Iwanted.
(41:34):
And she was strong, and I wantedto be strong.
She was a woman, and she wasvery opinionated, and she wasn't
afraid of being opinionated.
I thank her for that because shetaught me a lot.
SPEAKER_04 (41:48):
Well, and I'm sure that she's going to be looking
down.
Hopefully we will do her proudby presenting this exhibit at
the museum, which you've titledArte para la Gente, Art for the
People.
And it's so fantastic because itis about your community and it's
not just about Boyle Heights.
It's about your community.
It's about the space that youoccupy at any certain time.
(42:11):
It can be your garden and thetrees in your backyard It can be
the paleteros down the street,or it can be the beautiful,
haunting, desolate trees inFoster Park right after the
Thomas fire that you paintedwith some of your group.
So we're really, really lookingforward to having this exhibit
(42:33):
there.
Working hard on reopening themuseum on July 1st, and then you
come in on October 16th.
So we're very excited to haveyou.
SPEAKER_05 (42:40):
And I'm grateful for it.
I really am grateful that thedoor is open for me in Ventura.
And that the people are there.
It's great.
It's just really, reallywonderful because at 70, I feel
like this is realizing my dream.
It's my first solo museumexhibit.
I've been in many museums withgroup shows, but this is the
first time I get...
(43:00):
to put out a body of work thatlooks back a little bit.
And there's pieces that peoplehaven't seen because I pay the
rent.
SPEAKER_04 (43:08):
We're so excited to have you.
Cheech, Todd, and Melissa, wehope that you can join us
sometime during the Run ofMargaret's exhibit.
If Margaret's there, we'd loveto take you all out to one of
Margaret's favorite places,Stefan's Restaurant in Ventura,
which is kind of our hangoutwhen we go there.
It's a good place.
And thank you,
SPEAKER_01 (43:24):
Melissa, for having me on.
This has been so great.
And actually, I'm just so happywith everyone that's here.
I thought that what we do atthis point is we have a couple
of questions, and then ifeveryone wants to unmute
themselves, good, you did.
Maybe there's also questions forall of you.
There's two right now that aredirected to Margaret, and again,
(43:46):
for all the other attendeesthere, if you want to add a few
more.
I'm going to ask the questionthat Linda Areola just posted,
and it's directed to Margaret,and certainly others can weigh
in on but it's specific toChicano art and being seriously
collected.
So Linda says, it's beendiscouraging that many of our
(44:06):
best Chicano artists are notrepresented by commercial
galleries and that there doesn'tseem to be a serious market for
the work, let alone that Chicanoart is not seriously collected
in museums.
What are your thoughts aboutthis?
And I'm going to direct that toMargaret first and then Cheech.
I think I'd like to hear you andAna also and Todd weigh in that
as well.
SPEAKER_05 (44:27):
It's a curse and it's a blessing.
It's a two-edged sword.
Because I have not always had agallery, and just occasionally I
have a gallery every now andthen.
I think I've been with Chimaya,B1, Avenue 50.
I mean, there's been a differentnumber of galleries where
occasionally you're in a show,but you don't get solid
(44:48):
representation.
When you get solidrepresentation and they like you
for whatever it is you do...
Sometimes you get boxed into acorner and you can't grow.
You can't change.
You can't evolve.
You get stuck doing that.
And could you give me anotherhundred, please?
And it becomes very redundantand very repetitive.
(45:09):
So there is a certain amount offreedom to not having that
representation.
But economically, it would be alot easier if you could have it.
If you found someone who couldreally support your work in
terms of the way you grow as anartist.
Then I would say, yeah, fine.
But if you get stuck, thensometimes it's not worth it to
(45:32):
me.
SPEAKER_01 (45:33):
Cheech, what do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (45:34):
Well, you know, for me, it's been a double-edged
sword, too.
When I was the kind of onlycollector out there collecting
on that scale...
I could get good prices.
And that was good because Irealized very early in the
process that all these paintingswere meant for a museum.
(45:54):
So I would buy...
paintings on that scale I meannot everybody can put a 24 by 12
foot painting in their house youknow over the couch unless
you've got the world's biggestcouch you know so on that side
of the the financial scale itworked well for me the other
thing is like I'm contrary topopular belief I'm not a
(46:18):
zillionaire that say can say heysend over two tons of that art
stuff you know and I have to beworking I'm a working actor and
so So if I'm working, I cancollect.
So I have to have a relationshipwith all the painters, which I
do.
And so it's always anegotiation, but they all know
that there's a good chance thatevery one of their paintings are
(46:40):
going to end up in a museum,which is actually the point, is
the point of this collection.
You know, it's like there's onlyso much art you can put in your
house.
And I had to answer thatbecause, well, what are you
going to do with it?
SPEAKER_05 (46:54):
Can I say something here?
Thank you.
Thank you for supporting usbecause, you know, I know that
you've taken a lot of heatbecause I know, you know, like,
oh, there's not enough women inyour collection.
I know you have women.
You have women in this work thatyou respond to.
But I'm going to dare say thatsometimes men are talking about
(47:17):
the kind of thing that you wantto listen to because it's a guy
talking to a guy.
And occasionally the women comein and they talk about stuff
that you care about, too.
But it's a different dialogue.
And the reason that I think thatyou respond to it faster is
because it's a guy talking toyou about guy stuff, right?
(47:38):
And I don't see that as being...
It seems natural that that wouldbe what you would have.
Because as a mother, if I paintpaintings that relate to my
motherhood, another mother isgoing to respond to it quicker.
And it's the same thing withyou, why you respond quicker to
(47:58):
guys.
But you do have women in yourthing.
And you've been...
You've been supportive of anumber of women, including Sonia
Faye and Cece Segura and Marthaand Patsy and Yolanda.
So there's more.
And the opening of that doorallowed us to open the door for
(48:22):
ourselves.
Because that's all it is, isbasically you're opening the
door, and yeah, I know where theart's going, so I'm happy about
it.
SPEAKER_00 (48:30):
It is part of that, you know, because I want the
best art to go in there, and Idon't really care if it's by a
man or a woman.
The perception may be that Ilisten to men more than I do,
but that really doesn't enter mymind.
It's the painting for me.
SPEAKER_05 (48:46):
It's just like they're talking in a voice,
they're presenting a vision thatsomehow you connect with
quicker, Because you're a guy,let's face it, you are a man.
SPEAKER_00 (48:54):
Many men at that.
SPEAKER_01 (48:56):
Well, I'd like to address it from this standpoint,
because I usually get a lot ofthe inquiries that'll come to
teach.
And I will say that 99% of theinquiries we get are from
artists directly.
are from guys.
And I think women, I would saythis, Cheech always says, if you
haven't seen Chicano art, youcan't love it or like it, but if
(49:17):
you don't see it.
So I would encourage womenartists to reach out or to
share.
We have different experiences, Ithink too.
Margaret, you are an excellentmentor for other women artists
in that way, because I hear fromyou pretty regularly and so does
Cheech.
And we know, I mean, you'llsend, and not like you're
(49:37):
sending me time, tons and tonsof images on there, or you're
always making sure that Cheechis invited.
So whatever the case may be,good communication is really
important.
I appreciate that.
And I think, so we have to putmore, that's something I'm
personally, I'm a woman, ofcourse.
So I'm always trying to say,hey, show your art, what's going
on there.
And I know- Didn't I send youSonia Faye?
(49:59):
I think you did, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (50:01):
That's a double-edged sword too.
SPEAKER_01 (50:03):
You
SPEAKER_00 (50:06):
cannot be shy in this.
Shall
SPEAKER_01 (50:08):
I go to the next question or does Ana or Todd
want to weigh in on thatquestion or I can go to the next
one?
I
SPEAKER_04 (50:14):
just want to say something really quickly.
We are a small museum thatstarted out as a pioneer society
that became a historical societyand then morphed into a history
and art museum.
But I depend a lot on myconnections.
So when I first started here 13years ago, we started a
committee called LasContemporáneas, which is a group
(50:35):
of professional Latina womenThey are the ones that turned me
on to Chimaya Gallery andcollecting.
And did you see this artist?
Did you see, do you know CeceSegura?
Do you know the work of MargaretGarcia?
So it's so wonderful to be ableto have that.
Unfortunately, because of oursize, we're limited in storage
capacity, but we just did anassessment with our collections
(51:00):
manager and we found out notonly were we sorely lacking in
collections, art by women.
We are lacking in art by anyLatinos.
Our collection is less than 4%Latino artists.
And it's even less for Asiansand other people of color.
(51:22):
So it is something that themuseum was shocked to find out,
but it's something that we areworking on.
And honestly, thanks to Margaretand her exhibit, this is going
to change.
SPEAKER_02 (51:34):
Well, and I'd like to add on to what Anna said is
that this, the whole industry,the museum industry at this
moment is facing this reckoningwhere every, every collection
manager and curator is lookingat the collection and really
looking at it through adifferent lens and saying, we've
got to rectify this.
We've got to fix this.
(51:54):
And I think, you know, that'sone of the things, you know,
Cheech talks a lot, says a lot,you know, when museums would
come and say, how do you haveall this?
He says, well, I have it becauseyou don't.
I collect it because you haveit.
And I think the beauty of theCheech coming forward now is
that this amazing collection ofwork is going to be not sent off
(52:16):
to a bunch of differentinstitutions as one-offs, but
really celebrated all in oneplace.
And then it'll continue to grow.
We will continue to acquirework, continue to tour it and
share it.
The beauty of this is thatCheech has also gotten the work
out So it hasn't just sat instorage.
It hasn't been in his house.
(52:37):
It's been in museum after museumof all kinds of sizes and shapes
and in all parts of the countryand the world.
And I think that's, you know,that kind of spirit is the core
of the Cheech and, you know, ispart of the DNA that I think we
are very committed tocontinuing.
SPEAKER_01 (52:54):
That's great.
And again, you really hit it.
Like Cheech mentioned this,you've said it, Margaret said
it, we all talked aboutrelationships.
So I think it's getting womenand everyone get their voices to
the table here.
We need to have that connectionand making sure that people
SPEAKER_00 (53:11):
see their work.
Part of the process is to dispelthe rumor that Chicano art is
only for Chicanos.
You know, they're the only onesthat can appreciate it.
I like Matisse.
I like Picasso.
I like Kandinsky.
I like all those artists becauseI appreciate it for the art.
And to kind of put forth thismessage that we're in that
(53:32):
category, where if you look atthe art, we're in that category.
So you can be Lithuanian orZimbabwean and still appreciate
that art.
You don't have to be Chicano,exclusively the Chicano, to
present it.
Appreciate it.
It might...
ring a different bell in youthan it does for somebody else,
(53:52):
but it will definitely ring abell.
And it's getting it out in frontof the people.
The one comment I've heard overand over again as we toured the
country with different sectionsof the collection is that, well,
I didn't think I liked Chicanoart, but now I'm seeing it for
(54:13):
the first time.
Oh, I like this.
well that's Chicano art oh wellthen I like it you know so
that's you hear that story overand over and over again and you
just kind of smile at them okaywell we'd like to do another
show here so you can see evenmore and it's starting to get
out the museum industry if youwere the wheels grind
(54:38):
exceedingly slow in that worldbecause it is the final
imprimatur of social acceptanceof artistic acceptance and
community and whatever standardyou want to put up.
But it's the final imprimatur.
It's in a museum.
Now you get to bring the schoolkids in it or the elderly or
whoever is visiting your citygets to come and see it.
(55:00):
So it's a big deal to have theaccessibility.
And that's always what Chicanosare trying to get.
We want the opportunity andopportunity is the biggest road
we can go on to.
So we're getting there.
(55:22):
It doesn't happen overnight,obviously, but it does happen.
And every step along this wayhas been a joy for me.
to see the art in differentplaces and see the reaction of
the people.
I
SPEAKER_05 (55:39):
don't think anybody else works harder for the
Chicano art community thanCheech.
It's exciting that you'regetting the Cheech together,
that it's coming together.
And I'm excited about being atthe Ventura County because I
just feel like, okay, You know,it's not the end.
I mean, your life, even when youstep away, it's not the end.
(56:01):
You leave something behind.
You've made a contribution.
SPEAKER_01 (56:04):
That was actually a great segue, Margaret, because
the question from Craig Blue is,do you think you're leaving a
legacy as an artist?
And if so, what is it?
And how do you maintain yourauthenticity?
SPEAKER_05 (56:13):
Let me tell you, you know who Craig Blue is?
Craig Blue, I love you, CraigBlue.
Craig Blue is an artist and he'sin New York right now.
He was staying a couple doorsdown at the Rock Rose Gallery,
and he'd come in and work withme.
He put his portfolio together,and he went to Laguna Art
School.
(56:34):
And then he got his MFA.
He's in New York.
He's big now.
But let me tell you, his successis something that is so close.
to my heart.
He's African-American artistwho's doing these wonderful
pieces at the governor's mansionright now.
(56:55):
That's my legacy because you canleave a painting.
Painting is just a painting.
It's a process, right?
But your job as an artist isn'tjust to make art, it's to create
community.
He is part of my community.
He is a beloved person who ispart of my community.
(57:17):
And he and David Flurry andBonnie Lambert and Kiki Eder and
Huberto Luna and Natalie Fertinoand Gloria Vasquez Warner.
And I mean, I can just go on andon.
Salvador Correa.
Oh my God, he's becoming amonster painter.
(57:38):
These people who...
You know, you leave peoplebehind.
And they keep the process going.
They keep moving it forward.
I mean, I am really grateful forthat.
Love you.
Love you, Blue.
Thank you for being there.
SPEAKER_00 (57:56):
Ana, I'd like to ask you a question.
Do you have any fire paintingsin this upcoming exhibition of
Margaret's?
SPEAKER_04 (58:05):
We do.
So when Margaret and I talkedabout putting this exhibit
together, because we have a veryspecific mission, especially
showcase art from Ventura Countyand the surrounding area,
something that I've stretchedover the years to go all the way
up to San Luis Obispo and downto, well, we're down to almost
(58:25):
Palm Springs right now.
But one of the caveats was forMargaret was that she needed to
paint something things, sheneeded to come and do some work
in the area, which she agreed todo.
So that was kind of our firstsojourn out was in the aftermath
of the Thomas fire.
which really hit very close tohome, literally for us.
(58:48):
And I didn't realize thatMargaret had done some fire
paintings before this.
So yes, to answer your question,yes, there will be some fire
paintings.
She did a couple that I thinkwere sold through Chimaya and
were purchased by some of ourlocal collectors.
So we will have at least two, Ibelieve.
(59:10):
We have some pastels.
SPEAKER_00 (59:11):
Yeah, I think those paintings are some of your
strongest and people gravitateto them immediately because
they're extremely emotional,which leads me to one quick,
small question.
How much of painting is aphysical action?
SPEAKER_05 (59:26):
It's out of body thing.
You know, I'm not aware of myphysicality when I'm painting
because I'm only thinking abouthere and the paint and I you
know and then the day's over andI'm like god I'm tired but I
don't think about it it justit's like singing you know you
don't think about how you'regoing to hit the note it just
(59:47):
flows out of you
SPEAKER_00 (59:49):
oh okay but you do get tired after a session huh
SPEAKER_05 (59:52):
Well, some things are quicker than others.
I think that some things arethoughtful.
It depends on the process you'regoing through.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:01):
Thank you, Margaret, for sharing your work.
Thank you for inspiring my pathto being a collector.
Check out Margaret's work on herwebsite at
margaretgarciastudio.com.
Show notes, links, artwork,images that are referenced from
today on the website.
And again, I'll link it fromCheech's website as well.
I do want to encourage you tosave the date for our next
conversation.
(01:00:22):
When Wednesday, June 23rd, 4o'clock.
Pacific time.
Cece Segura-Gonzalez isscheduled for Saturday, June
26th.
Sonia Faye is on Wednesday, June23rd.
And then we're ending withJudith Hernandez on Wednesday,
June 30th.
And you can register online atriversideartmuseum.org.
(01:00:42):
Please tune in again.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00:45):
Goodbye.
Chiflando me mido de frenteSiempre si me enfrenta mi gente
Welcome
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
to Son Cuatro, In Conversation.
This series is presented byRiverside Art Museum, also known
as RAM, leading up to itsopening of the Chich Marín
Center for Chicano Art andCulture, a.k.a.
The Chich.
I'm Melissa Richardson-Banks,and today there are four of us
who will be in conversation withartist Margaret Garcia.
(00:35):
Todd Wingate, Director ofExhibitions and Collections at
the Riverside Art Museum.
Ana Bermudez, who is the ChiefCurator at the Museum of Ventura
County.
And the incomparable CheechMaureen, entertainer, filmmaker,
comedian, collector, artadvocate, and just lots of fun.
Now, before we start, I wantedto share that I've had the
(00:57):
pleasure of working with Cheechfor nearly 20 of his 40 years of
collecting.
It is because of him that I havebecome a collector of some sort.
And on this very date, 16 yearsago, my own path to collecting
began with my first purchase,which was a painting by Margaret
Garcia.
Now, what she astutely knew, andI naively did not at the time,
(01:21):
was that I would fall in lovewith her Ere Libre painting
after she generously allowed meto hang it on my wall so that
clients could see it.
Well, it never left my walluntil I decided that it needed
to go to Cheech because I knewhe would take care of it and it
would go to a major museum.
And now we have the Cheech.
(01:42):
Todd?
SPEAKER_02 (01:42):
Good afternoon.
So when Margaret talks about herwork, she says that her work
provides a look at her communitythrough the presence of the
individual and that her desireis for her work to be pertinent
and meaningful.
She's a teacher, she's a mentorto many young artists who are
just starting their careers andher work has been exhibited in
group shows throughout theUnited States and in Europe.
(02:03):
Although she doesn't considerher work overtly political, over
time she's come to realize thatmany of her portraits belie the
stereotypes given to any oneculture by the media.
In addition to her portrayals ofsensual women of mixed race,
many of her street scenes andlandscapes that depict her
Highland Park neighborhood arein Cheech's collection.
Currently, Cheech has over 30artworks by Margaret in the
(02:24):
collection.
Her most known work in thecollection is Janine at 39,
Mother of Twins.
So I have a question to startwith Cheech.
Cheech, how and when did youmeet Margaret and what is it
about Janine at 39 in particularthat is so compelling to you and
will be to other viewers?
SPEAKER_00 (02:43):
You know, it seems like I've known Margaret from
the very beginning of I startedcollecting, you know, because
she was in that group of LApainters that were very prolific
as she has remained to this day,which I think accounted for her
being the most improved painterof any painter that I have.
(03:04):
I've seen her progress over theyears and not only what she
does, but how she does it hasintrigued me because the
technique has become preeminent.
I'm not preeminent, but it'sreally important because I've
seen her develop it over theyears and when it's applied to
the subject matter her ownneighborhood and I don't know if
(03:24):
there's anybody in my collectionthat depicts their neighborhood
as accurately and as colorfullyand as wonderfully as Margaret
does I think the key to hersuccess and her renown as it
were is because she does paintevery day And you find those
(03:47):
great painters do it.
And they paint almost every day,you know, unless they have to go
to their parole officers oranything like that again.
But every day, you know, and yousee the progress.
That's the great thing aboutcollecting a lot of works of
Margaret.
You see the market progress ofthe ability and the insight as
to what the paintings mean.
(04:08):
And that has increased over theyears.
Janine in 39, I think it was...
In the Chicano Visions tour,which went to 14 major museums
over a seven-year period oftime, all the way from the
Smithsonian to LACMA to SanDiego Museum, the Young at San
(04:31):
Francisco.
of all the paintings in thecollection that were exhibited
then, Jeannie in 39 was theoverwhelming favorite of
everybody who's came in to seethe show.
And it really told me a lotabout the process of people
viewing art in the tour, youknow, because I don't think the
general audience looked at herwork as some kind of
(04:54):
intellectual, academic analysisof responding to the emotion of
the painting, you know, and thatwhich is what I did too, you
know.
Janina, 39 months, mother oftwins, is for me the definition
of fecundity.
It's like this woman is ripesitting in the lap of an agave
(05:17):
and a rocking chair.
It took me a long time to seethat that chair was, oh, those
roses are on the chair.
But it's, you know, it's...
Her paintings tend to be lush.
And I think everybody thatreally loves paintings responds
to lushness because of thenature of the quality of paint.
(05:39):
It was confirmed by everybodyvoting for it.
Because we asked that specificquestion.
What is the painting that yourespond to most?
And it always came up, Jeannie,the 39 mother of twins.
Told me a lot, you know, becauseit's like as a comedian, you can
step on the stage and you thinkyou got a good joke going and
you tell the joke and they don'tlaugh.
(05:59):
Well, it ain't funny.
They laugh.
It's funny.
No matter how much you want itto be funny or how much you
think it's funny, it's the samething with paintings.
You put it in front of peopleand they react.
It's a very visceral thing thathappens.
And I've seen it happen over andover again.
So Margaret's paintings are someof my favorite in the collection
(06:23):
because I can...
not only stare at them a longtimes, but they remind me of
neighborhoods that I knew frommy childhood.
And I think that's, whether it'sin the state of California or in
the state of Florida, peoplerespond the same way.
It's amazing how that reactiongoes.
So I'd like to ask you a coupleof questions, Margaret, if you
(06:44):
are ready.
Okay, so here's the one primaryquestion.
Why did you become an artist?
SPEAKER_05 (06:53):
I came home from school with my crayon drawing
and my dad said, oh, you're anartist.
And I thought, oh.
Cool.
I'm an artist.
I like that.
SPEAKER_06 (07:01):
How old were you?
SPEAKER_05 (07:03):
Kindergarten, maybe five.
Grandma had a lot of art books.
She had drawings.
She had paintings.
SPEAKER_00 (07:09):
Your father and your grandmother were both painters?
SPEAKER_05 (07:12):
No, my grandmother, she knew how to draw.
My dear uncle Charlie bought hersome paintings and we had them
in the living room.
So we had art in our house whenI was a kid and it was original.
So they weren't reproductions.
I mean, we actually had art.
But I wanted to ask yousomething because it kind of,
(07:37):
you know, I hear you talk abouthow you went to school and you
did the ceramics and you showedthe teacher and the teacher
went, Oh, you'll never be anartist.
And you let it go.
And I hear that, and I feel likeyou got robbed.
Because let me say this, andit's really important to the way
(08:00):
that I work.
Talent is an overrated concept.
It isn't talent.
It's hard work.
It's about having the fire inyour belly and deciding that you
have a vision that you want toimpart.
You may not be real good, but ifyou keep doing it and keep doing
it, you get good.
And it has to do more with thevision and what you have to
(08:24):
impart or say than whether ornot you have that talent.
Because nobody's born walking orrunning or talking.
You learn, you know.
And I've worked in the prisonsand with gangs and other people.
And...
That is a discouragement becauseI think that sometimes the art
(08:47):
teacher doesn't have a clueabout your cultural background
or what you come from or whatyour experience is.
And, you know, they'reeliminating competition, Cheech.
You know, that's not supposed tobe their job.
Their job is to teach you, notto eliminate the competition.
(09:10):
Because look, you know, you sayI'm the most improved.
Let me say this.
I leave the door open toevolving forward, always.
And I don't get stuck on justusing iconography.
Because iconography, even thoughI will use it, it'll turn into a
(09:34):
cliche.
And cliches become stereotypes.
And so I don't want to be acliche or a stereotype.
We're more complex than that.
That's why I like
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
the portrait.
You've done well in that.
I have a lot of your portraitsand I can see the difference in
them all the time.
So what set you on this creativepath other than you wanted to
draw and very soon you'rerecognizing yourself that you
had the ability to do it and toprogress in that.
But what set you on thiscreative path that this is the
way I'm going to live my life.
(10:06):
I'm going to be an artist, whichis an incredible statement,
especially at a younger age.
when you go forward to enter afield that is extremely hard to
make a living at?
SPEAKER_05 (10:22):
I didn't enter the field with the idea that I was
going to be an artist and make aliving at it.
I entered the practice ofdrawing and painting because I
wanted to see if I could getgood at it for myself, not for
the public, not for a gallery,not for a museum, because the
(10:45):
first person I needed to dealwith was me.
And having the practice likepainting and drawing is like
having the practice of writingor singing or playing the piano.
It becomes a part of your life.
It is your practice.
It is your discipline.
It's the thing that you dothat...
(11:06):
makes your life.
It's the way I live my life.
I think that it's a way toexpress myself, to express the
visions that I have in terms ofbeauty and harmony and the
beautiful things I see in otherpeople and in my community.
I'm lucky.
(11:29):
I feel really, really lucky thatI'm a Chicana.
I love my culture and I love Theexpressiveness of the music, of
charo music, of mariachi, of thecolorful costumes and the
colorful nature of the weavingsthat come from Mexico, I love
(11:50):
that stuff.
So I'm in the right place forwho I
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
am.
Yeah, you are in the right placefor who you are.
Is it your neighborhood thatinspires you as an artist?
I mean, are the people or arethey both one in the same?
SPEAKER_05 (12:04):
I grew up in Boyle Heights.
Boyle Heights has always been avery mixed neighborhood.
There's a lot of Chicanos here,but there were also lots of
Japanese and Jewish and Russian.
And there were Chinese andAfrican-Americans and everybody
It was a mixed bag.
And there was such a degree oftolerance.
(12:24):
Tolerance in terms of theteachers that I had because I
had African-American teachersand Jewish teachers and Japanese
teachers.
I had all kinds of teachers.
So I had that exposure becausethat's Boyle Heights.
You know, if you love life, youlove beauty, if you love your
culture, you know...
I think art is the way that wedefine who we are.
(12:46):
And I like the history that goeswith it.
So I've worked with historianBill Mason, who did 30 years at
the Museum of Natural History.
We did a project at the Campo deCahuenga Universal Metro
Station, where I did a historiclandmark.
And I got to totally get intothat.
(13:09):
And it was all about the...
mestizaje of people that camehere and founded LA.
So I love history.
I love the art.
And, you know, just being alive.
SPEAKER_00 (13:20):
Did you have any particular mentor or teacher
that kind of guided you alongthe path?
SPEAKER_05 (13:27):
You know, in high school, I had a teacher named
Roberto Chavez, who was ateacher over at ELAC.
And he actually was teachers toMagoo.
And a few other people, OpheliaEsparza.
So there were a whole number ofChicano artists that went
through that ELAC group.
(13:47):
And I lived across the streetand would go there on Tuesday
nights and join his drawingclass.
He let me audit it.
And I wasn't enrolled.
He said, just come in.
Just draw.
Just draw.
SPEAKER_00 (14:00):
Cool.
That is...
Has he passed on or are youstill in contact?
SPEAKER_05 (14:05):
No, no.
He's living in Arizona.
He recently had a show at ELACat the Vincent Price and he had
a nice catalog and I went thereto see them.
We had a lecture on him.
I think he's still alive.
I hope he's still.
Who knows with the pandemic?
I don't know what the pandemictook out right now.
(14:25):
I'm
SPEAKER_00 (14:25):
surprised that I'm alive.
SPEAKER_05 (14:28):
Hey,
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
please hang in there.
It's amazing.
I mean, we've just gone througha singular time in our history
where we, the whole nation,actually the whole world has
been quarantined and we're goingto, it's my feeling that we're
going to come out of thisessentially changed.
The things are going to be donedifferently as we go forward,
(14:50):
faster, more streamlined, moreefficient, more inclusive, more,
make it harder to exclude thanwe have been before and I think
that is a great thing for thecountry and Because we have to
learn how to do things moreefficiently and how to spread.
the effects that we want to seehappen in the world now with the
(15:14):
advent of the internet and othersources like that.
It's going to move very fastnow.
You could be walking down thestreet in Nigeria with a click
of a button on your computer andthat's, you know, knowledge of
all other cultures are beingexchanged extremely fast right
now.
I mean, some of the works thatI...
(15:39):
that I possess of yours, I mean,there's not a Chicano in sight,
you know?
Willie Middlebrook, the portraityou did of Willie Middlebrook is
like still one of my favoritethings because it's just like,
wow, that color, you know, thatdarkness.
Because I went to, I was in aschool for the fourth grade in
(16:00):
South Central LA where themajority of the students were
black.
And you see all those kinds offusions like you were talking
about, Boyle Heights, there areall kinds of races and
categories of people in there.
So you kind of grow up withthat.
And so you can, you can,appreciate the otherness rather
(16:22):
than dismiss
SPEAKER_05 (16:24):
it yes you know it's like a unique flower you know
like orchids you put this orchidtogether with that orchid and
you get something totallydifferent that neither looks
like but it is this beauty thatyou know she looks kind of china
no she looks moreafrican-american i mean there's
a little bit of all of that andit's so unique i mean people
(16:46):
look so unique in one way i'msaying where a community and
then another I'm also saying butwithin the community there are
so many people that are uniqueand contribute and the other
thing is when you do a portraitif you're doing a portrait you
(17:06):
can break stereotypes becauseyou know, being part of
Hollywood that, you know, you'reeither, you know, a housekeeper,
a gangbanger, a prostitute orwhatever.
SPEAKER_00 (17:19):
I was never a prostitute.
I want to discourage thatthought.
SPEAKER_05 (17:22):
Well, I saw you wearing those tights.
SPEAKER_00 (17:23):
Prostitute adjacent.
SPEAKER_05 (17:26):
But you know, the thing is, you know, the
stereotypes about who we are,they are stereotypes because in
all of that collection, there'steachers and filmmakers and you
know curators and maybe acomedian now and then but I mean
you know where the whole rangeit isn't that that we have to
(17:47):
omit people or not be honestabout what's part of our
community But there's so muchmore in our community.
You know, doctors and nurses andmy brother's a doctor.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
You know, the other quality that you have of your
work that I really, reallyappreciate and it's why I...
collect paintings is becausejust the quality of paint the
paint is a wonderfully elasticmedium that can be opaque or
translucent or transparent ormalleable or thick or thin and
(18:25):
it's just that's why paintingshave to be seen in person and I
learned that very early in myart experience that I would go
to museums at a very young ageand get up as close to the
paintings as I possibly couldand even over many hundreds of
years that quality remains insome paintings but I mean it's
like it's like having a reallythick wonderful sauce that you
(18:49):
can put on anything you knowit's like you can taste it you
can feel it you can I mean whenthey're not looking you can
touch it I
SPEAKER_05 (18:59):
like my paint when it's almost like frosting you
know thick and there's textureyeah
SPEAKER_00 (19:05):
you know the thickness of it and that's kind
of what Chicano has in It's kindof an essential quality.
How difficult is that to do, youknow, to work in the thickness
of paint rather than the graphicdesign of it?
SPEAKER_05 (19:19):
It's my nature now.
I've been making my paint sothick for a long time.
I never throw out a paintingthat I don't like.
I just paint over it.
So I build the surface of thepainting and I like painting on
wood because there's moretension between the brush and
(19:39):
and the surface of the panel andyou can carve with it.
You can mold the surface of thatpaint better than you can if
it's on canvas.
When you put it on canvas, thecanvas kind of gives and sucks
up the fluidity of the paint andit doesn't.
On wood, it stands up and youcan really make that texture
(20:04):
come alive.
SPEAKER_00 (20:05):
I remember you had that conversation with me when I
asked you that specific questionone time in the past.
I said, why did you paint thisone on wood and not on canvas?
You explained that you canpush...
the paint better on wood in someinstances than you can on
canvas, you know?
So it's a real kind of, youknow, a wall to throw the ball
against.
(20:25):
Sometimes it comes off fast,sometimes slow, and sometimes
you have to hit it harder.
You know, it's a real, but thetechnique, the technique of
learning how to paint, I thinkis something that identifies the
Chicano school of painting, youknow, because it's not just the
thought that counts, it's theexecution of the thought that is
really important.
Todd, she got questions.
SPEAKER_02 (20:44):
You got questions.
Earlier today, you talked aboutleaving the door open to
evolution in your work, which Ithink is really interesting.
And so as you think about theevolution of your work over your
career, has it been intentionalor intentional?
By happenstance, have you justlet sort of your views and
(21:09):
inspiration drive you?
How would you talk about theevolution in your work?
SPEAKER_05 (21:15):
Well, it's very premeditated because I got
tired.
Listen, you know, I love the Dayof the Dead.
I love Frida Kahlo, you know,Cinco de Mayo, the Virgen of
Guadalupe, and the farm workerflag.
I love all of it.
And I have no problem using it.
(21:37):
But we're so much more complex.
And when you're talking aboutsomething that's really personal
and intimate about yourself,then you have to traverse
something that's reallydifficult.
You have to challenge yourself.
If I paint a calavera for 40years and I just keep whipping
(21:57):
them out, they're going to lookgreat.
They look fine.
It's very decorative.
It's pretty.
It's nice.
But the truth is that it becomesa cliche because you're not
really digging deep.
You have to dig deep.
And, you know, if you have theseicons that you rely on, you
(22:17):
know, I've done wild dogs.
I've done chili peppers.
I've done Day of the Dead.
I've done Frida Kahlo.
I've done the Virgin ofGuadalupe.
And I might even do them again.
But the thing is that thecomplexity of how I feel about
as a human being, as a spirit,as a spiritual quest, means that
I have to challenge myself.
(22:39):
And challenging myself meansthat I have to be willing to
fail.
I have to be willing tochallenge myself to fall down
and fail and get up and do itagain.
Because if you're always onpoint, if everything you do is
perfect and wonderful and younever make a mistake, that means
(22:59):
you're not challenging yourself.
If you're challenging yourself,that means you have to be
willing to fall down.
You have to be willing to fail.
Somebody who's doing somethingthat they can do in the snap of
a button because it's easy,they're resting on their
laurels.
They're not challengingyourself.
(23:20):
So for me, it isn't just, yeah,my next painting is a better
painting.
Always.
But if you're talking aboutevolving as a human being, not
just as an artist, but as ahuman being and a person who has
perhaps emotional and spiritualgrowth to make your purpose in
(23:41):
life, then you have to challengeyourself and be willing to fall
now.
And I see a lot of art and a lotof it's really beautiful and
decorative.
And I go back to what JosephCampbell said.
There's three kinds of art.
There's decorative, there's artthat's made out of gold and it
has a lot of man hours.
(24:03):
And then there's art that whenyou look at it, it gives you an
understanding of the humancondition.
It gives you an epiphany aboutthe condition that you're in or
your environment, or it sayssomething to you that you can
relate to in your heart and youcan see it.
That's the challenge.
(24:25):
So I will always continue toimprove.
But I like the word evolvebecause...
It isn't that I'm not good whereI'm at.
I mean, I could stay put whereI'm at and do the same thing
over and over again.
I would be very unhappy.
SPEAKER_02 (24:42):
One of the things Cheech talks a lot about is that
the artists in his collectionare often painting news from the
front, sort of reallydocumenting neighborhoods and
finding the inspiration in thoseneighborhoods and communities
and really sort of saying,here's what's happening in my
house, on my street, in mycommunity.
(25:03):
And You do that quite frequentlyand fluidly, and it's really
extraordinarily beautiful.
I'm curious about inspiration insome of your work, most notably
or most recently, the firepaintings.
So you've got a series of firepaintings that come at a time
where other artists have donesome different versions, not
(25:24):
anywhere near the same, but lotsof artists working with fire.
I think about Sandy Rodriguezand some of the fire paintings
that she did that came beforethe Florentine Codex work that
she's doing.
So what is the inspirationbehind your fire paintings?
I think that they're reallyextraordinary.
SPEAKER_05 (25:46):
I went up to Ventura to visit Anna and I asked her to
take me up to where the Thomasfire was.
But even before that, I had donethis painting and it was one of
the reasons I did that onepainting called Premonition.
Where I was just fascinated byfire and I painted this palm
(26:07):
tree on fire and the sparks werefalling all over this truck.
I don't think you've seen thatone, Cheech.
It's gone.
And then I did another onecalled Premonition.
And the thing is that it was, Iwant to say almost like
something in my dreams.
I needed to go back and I neededto look for those things.
(26:30):
And then all of a sudden there'sa fire season and all these
fires came about.
I like to paint in my cadmiums.
I want to see how hot I get it.
And oftentimes I seefire-painted...
(26:52):
But there's always this kind ofdullness to it.
And it's not very viscous.
And I wanted the paint to bealmost like crackling of the
sparks that came off that tree.
I wanted it to glow and have aluminosity.
And oil paint, more thanacrylic, has the ability to do
(27:15):
that sort of luminous glow.
So you feel like the glow iscoming from the bottom layer of
the paint.
And that's what I was trying tomaster on that.
So I just got as many fires as Icould and started painting them.
I kind of agree with CarlosAlmaraz.
I have to give him a nod becauseI became aware of his work in
(27:39):
83.
And you ask about who influencesme, but I have to tell you,
yeah.
I saw his show up at theMunicipal Art Gallery in 84 and
I was like, oh my God.
Blown away.
I like fire.
SPEAKER_02 (27:55):
Well, you capture it in a really powerful way with
this incredible amount ofmovement in there.
It's not static.
They're just very live andreally, really brilliant.
So I have another question in adifferent direction.
And we're seeing scholarshipnow, writing the sort of
(28:16):
documents, the continued...
lack of representation ofLatino, Latinx artists in the
major markets.
And so as you think about yourcareer, are there surely
challenges, but also what havebeen the opportunities for you
(28:38):
that you've experienced as anartist in gaining recognition
for your work?
SPEAKER_05 (28:41):
I just started by doing what I wanted to do.
I had gone through sometraumatic experiences and was
not really good at functioningin terms of like going out and
holding down a job.
I couldn't even do it.
And I had a good friend, GlennaAvila, who hired me to work at
the photo center.
(29:02):
And I was able to work with alot of photographers.
That's where I met WillieMiddlebrook.
And photography really impactsyour sense of composition.
And I got involved with...
photojournalism the there was agroup of Chicano photographers
(29:23):
that had gotten the Pulitzer andWillie Middlebrook who had
gotten the NEA and so these guysbecame my my support my they
were I want to say Willie kindof mentored me as well as a
number of other people JoseBarrera who just passed away
from this like a few months agofrom this pandemic.
(29:48):
And the content of the work interms of being, it isn't like a
drive-by.
There are people who arephotographers and they kind of
drive by and take a shot.
You have to engage you, you haveto relate and you have to have a
conversation with that person.
(30:08):
It isn't just a drive by, youknow, rape and pillage kind of
photography, but one that hasmeaning because you've had an
interaction and it, and, andyour work is evidence of it.
And that's what I wanted.
You know I didn't, I didn't wantto do the same thing over and
over again.
You know, I don't, I don't wantto do 2,000 calaveras and 400
(30:33):
Frida Kahlo's.
I mean, I love them.
I love her.
And that's cool.
And sometimes when you hit awall, it's nice to use that
iconography to break free fromwhatever it is that's holding
you back in terms of digging in.
But once you dig in, then youstart going for the more
personal things.
You have to bare your soul.
(30:58):
You have to show what you reallylove, what means something to
you.
What do you care about?
I mean, why are you taking thetime to paint that if it doesn't
mean anything to you?
It's really hard for me tolisten to the news these days.
I don't want to bear witness tothat anymore.
(31:19):
And the other thing is, ifyou're so against something, you
have to show what you're for,right?
I get that we're all against thewar, but you have to show that
you're in favor of peace.
You're in favor of beauty, infavor of learning, in favor of
giving somebody a hand up, oflooking at humanity and being
(31:40):
able to see the humanity inthose eyes.
It isn't just another mask oranother face, but that you
relate to that person on apersonal level.
There are times when people sitfor me and they don't understand
what I'm doing and they don'tconnect.
They look behind me.
They look around me.
(32:01):
You talk to them.
They don't make eye contact.
And sometimes it just doesn'twork because they're nervous.
I make them nervous.
I'm not trying to, but that'sjust the way it is.
And so sometimes it's about amoment.
You know, you're not justpainting a face, a body.
You're painting the moment, theair, the atmosphere, the social
(32:26):
engagement that you have.
It isn't just a likeness.
You were talking
SPEAKER_04 (32:31):
with Todd about this and how some artists, and you
and I have had the discussionbefore about how some artists
get stuck in a niche subjectmatter, but that is so not you.
So my first question to you is,so what's next?
Where does your work go fromhere?
(32:51):
You
SPEAKER_05 (32:51):
know, I used to paint pretty fast.
You know, if I cut out sixpaintings a day, I thought I was
doing good.
And now it's like one paintingand it's like, Two months later,
I'm still working on that samepainting.
And I'm just in a differentpoint of evolution.
I'm looking to see how far I cantake it.
(33:14):
And I'm giving it a lot moretime.
Before I used to give myselflimits.
Okay, you've got an hour, paintit.
And then kind of let go becauseI...
I don't want to overwork things.
I see things that getoverworked.
(33:34):
And so you have to be able tolet go in phases.
And now that I'm 70, there'sother things that I want to see
there.
I want to convey my sense ofbeauty in terms of what I see
around me.
And, you know...
(33:56):
I have to say, and it's like oneof the most important things to
me in my life, my existence isto be able to open the door for
somebody else.
You know, the other people onhere don't don't know this, but
like you've opened up thepavilion to exhibit a lot of the
people I just mentored becausetheir work is really phenomenal.
(34:20):
And I like surrounding myselfwith really good, tough people
who work hard because they throwthe gauntlet down and they just
force you to be better.
And it's that camaraderie thatsort of sustains me.
It's that conversation.
You know, David Fleury is a partof that.
(34:44):
And of course, there are plentyof people who aren't Chicano
that are a part of it.
But because it's not exclusive.
And the other thing that Ireally care about right now is
women artists.
I want to make sure that theydon't feel trapped, that they
can figure out a way to workthemselves out of whatever that
(35:06):
trap is that's holding them backfrom being able to succeed.
We all have a different path.
It's not all the same path.
But being able to createeconomic sustainability, doing
the thing that you love isimportant.
So I'd like to see more womenhave that opportunity because
they develop better.
(35:26):
Yeah, there's a whole lot ofstuff on that that I could touch
on, but we'll talk for anotherhour.
So I don't want to do that.
But
SPEAKER_04 (35:39):
yeah, more women.
Thank you.
And I know that even with thepandemic in the way of this
upcoming exhibit that we havehappening in October, you've
taken the time, the short timethat you had before the pandemic
to mentor some of our femaleartists here in Ventura County
as well.
And it is so much appreciated.
(35:59):
And we all thank you for that.
SPEAKER_05 (36:02):
Thank you.
I haven't had much opportunityto meet with with them, I'm
hoping I get more time.
SPEAKER_04 (36:09):
Well, they're looking forward to that.
So you and I spent lots ofpre-pandemic time together,
either in the car, drivingsomewhere, sharing a meal right
after the Thomas fire.
And we've had several studiovisits with you as well, not
(36:31):
just myself, but my family.
And I have to tell you thatevery time I visit your studio,
I love going there because it'sjust such a nondescript building
and you get there and you arriveand it's, you open the door and
it's just full of color, color,just color everywhere.
all over your studio, purplewalls, orange walls.
And it's just, it makes me smileevery time I walk in there,
(36:55):
whether it's the landscapes onthe wall, the night scenes with
the street vendors, theportraits that are challenging
you to make that eye contactwith them.
It's just such an enticing candystore of art.
I just love it.
So my question to you now iswhat are you working on now
SPEAKER_05 (37:19):
i'm working on my show for you and ventura i have
this one painting that's beenkicking my butt from one end to
the other and i've put a lot ofwork into this one particular
painting that's kind of largeand uh you know i'm taking some
cues i want to say or clues fromuh I want to say Monet, his
(37:44):
brushwork, you know, thatbusyness, that chaotic busyness.
And then it makes sense becausethe brush strokes are succinct
and to the point and on target.
And yet it looks chaotic, butit's not.
And I'm trying to make the painta little thicker.
(38:05):
Of course, my palette's muchbrighter now.
than his ever was.
But I stick to that becausethat's my inheritance of being
Chicana is the bright color.
SPEAKER_04 (38:17):
Well, we don't want to show that painting to Cheech
just yet because we don't wanthim to grab that up before we
go.
So I want to talk to you alittle bit about the art exhibit
that we're having at the museum,Arte para la Gente.
So I want to preface it bysaying that as a curator, and I
think Todd, you can relate tothis as well, I need to get to
(38:39):
know an artist and what they'reabout before I can actually do
an exhibit of their work.
I can't curate an exhibitwithout getting that backstory
from the artist and I think it'spart of my precocious nature
being an only child and havinggrown up with just adults in the
house that just, I have thatcuriosity about people and
(39:00):
Margaret has been so open abouther life with me and one of the
first things that she sharedwith me was her her grandma
Ruth's story and the impact thatyour grandmother had on your
work.
And I know that she just talkedto you about what influenced
your work, but that story issuch a dear story where you have
(39:22):
this grandmother that tells you,yes, you can do this.
And I think it's reallyinfluenced the way that we're
presenting this exhibit at themuseum.
Do you want to talk a little bitabout how this exhibit came
about.
Why did you want us to do thisexhibit for you?
SPEAKER_05 (39:43):
Well, I've been going back and forth to Ventura
County, first with Cafe Ane,with Armando over there.
So I was getting to know thecommunity a little better.
And then Vanessa Acosta and BigX, you know, invited me out.
He did some harp playing there.
So I got to know the community alittle better.
(40:05):
And I feel that there's moreopportunity in the outskirts
because there's a lot ofcommunity there.
Joyce Chavez.
There's people from the RebosoFestival.
People that connect with thework that I'm doing.
And...
(40:28):
I just think the opportunity isa little more open.
You guys are more supportive ofme.
I can't see myself dealing withLACMA.
Cheeched out with LACMA, I don'tknow how long it took him to get
that show.
They have bigger fish to fry.
(40:49):
There's a lot more people.
I'd rather go someplace where Ijust feel a little more at home.
It is that.
As far as my grandmother isconcerned, you know, grandma
used to pick me up at school andtell the nurse I had a doctor's
appointment.
We'd go to the horse track andbet on the horses, you know, and
(41:11):
she would take me out.
She was, my mother called her alibertina y callejera.
And yeah, me too.
And yeah.
I looked at her as my rolemodel.
She was a nurse over there atCounty General, and I think she
was the backbone of my family.
I felt like that was what Iwanted.
(41:34):
And she was strong, and I wantedto be strong.
She was a woman, and she wasvery opinionated, and she wasn't
afraid of being opinionated.
I thank her for that because shetaught me a lot.
SPEAKER_04 (41:48):
Well, and I'm sure that she's going to be looking
down.
Hopefully we will do her proudby presenting this exhibit at
the museum, which you've titledArte para la Gente, Art for the
People.
And it's so fantastic because itis about your community and it's
not just about Boyle Heights.
It's about your community.
It's about the space that youoccupy at any certain time.
(42:11):
It can be your garden and thetrees in your backyard It can be
the paleteros down the street,or it can be the beautiful,
haunting, desolate trees inFoster Park right after the
Thomas fire that you paintedwith some of your group.
So we're really, really lookingforward to having this exhibit
(42:33):
there.
Working hard on reopening themuseum on July 1st, and then you
come in on October 16th.
So we're very excited to haveyou.
SPEAKER_05 (42:40):
And I'm grateful for it.
I really am grateful that thedoor is open for me in Ventura.
And that the people are there.
It's great.
It's just really, reallywonderful because at 70, I feel
like this is realizing my dream.
It's my first solo museumexhibit.
I've been in many museums withgroup shows, but this is the
first time I get...
(43:00):
to put out a body of work thatlooks back a little bit.
And there's pieces that peoplehaven't seen because I pay the
rent.
SPEAKER_04 (43:08):
We're so excited to have you.
Cheech, Todd, and Melissa, wehope that you can join us
sometime during the Run ofMargaret's exhibit.
If Margaret's there, we'd loveto take you all out to one of
Margaret's favorite places,Stefan's Restaurant in Ventura,
which is kind of our hangoutwhen we go there.
It's a good place.
And thank you,
SPEAKER_01 (43:24):
Melissa, for having me on.
This has been so great.
And actually, I'm just so happywith everyone that's here.
I thought that what we do atthis point is we have a couple
of questions, and then ifeveryone wants to unmute
themselves, good, you did.
Maybe there's also questions forall of you.
There's two right now that aredirected to Margaret, and again,
(43:46):
for all the other attendeesthere, if you want to add a few
more.
I'm going to ask the questionthat Linda Areola just posted,
and it's directed to Margaret,and certainly others can weigh
in on but it's specific toChicano art and being seriously
collected.
So Linda says, it's beendiscouraging that many of our
(44:06):
best Chicano artists are notrepresented by commercial
galleries and that there doesn'tseem to be a serious market for
the work, let alone that Chicanoart is not seriously collected
in museums.
What are your thoughts aboutthis?
And I'm going to direct that toMargaret first and then Cheech.
I think I'd like to hear you andAna also and Todd weigh in that
as well.
SPEAKER_05 (44:27):
It's a curse and it's a blessing.
It's a two-edged sword.
Because I have not always had agallery, and just occasionally I
have a gallery every now andthen.
I think I've been with Chimaya,B1, Avenue 50.
I mean, there's been a differentnumber of galleries where
occasionally you're in a show,but you don't get solid
(44:48):
representation.
When you get solidrepresentation and they like you
for whatever it is you do...
Sometimes you get boxed into acorner and you can't grow.
You can't change.
You can't evolve.
You get stuck doing that.
And could you give me anotherhundred, please?
And it becomes very redundantand very repetitive.
(45:09):
So there is a certain amount offreedom to not having that
representation.
But economically, it would be alot easier if you could have it.
If you found someone who couldreally support your work in
terms of the way you grow as anartist.
Then I would say, yeah, fine.
But if you get stuck, thensometimes it's not worth it to
(45:32):
me.
SPEAKER_01 (45:33):
Cheech, what do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (45:34):
Well, you know, for me, it's been a double-edged
sword, too.
When I was the kind of onlycollector out there collecting
on that scale...
I could get good prices.
And that was good because Irealized very early in the
process that all these paintingswere meant for a museum.
(45:54):
So I would buy...
paintings on that scale I meannot everybody can put a 24 by 12
foot painting in their house youknow over the couch unless
you've got the world's biggestcouch you know so on that side
of the the financial scale itworked well for me the other
thing is like I'm contrary topopular belief I'm not a
(46:18):
zillionaire that say can say heysend over two tons of that art
stuff you know and I have to beworking I'm a working actor and
so So if I'm working, I cancollect.
So I have to have a relationshipwith all the painters, which I
do.
And so it's always anegotiation, but they all know
that there's a good chance thatevery one of their paintings are
(46:40):
going to end up in a museum,which is actually the point, is
the point of this collection.
You know, it's like there's onlyso much art you can put in your
house.
And I had to answer thatbecause, well, what are you
going to do with it?
SPEAKER_05 (46:54):
Can I say something here?
Thank you.
Thank you for supporting usbecause, you know, I know that
you've taken a lot of heatbecause I know, you know, like,
oh, there's not enough women inyour collection.
I know you have women.
You have women in this work thatyou respond to.
But I'm going to dare say thatsometimes men are talking about
(47:17):
the kind of thing that you wantto listen to because it's a guy
talking to a guy.
And occasionally the women comein and they talk about stuff
that you care about, too.
But it's a different dialogue.
And the reason that I think thatyou respond to it faster is
because it's a guy talking toyou about guy stuff, right?
(47:38):
And I don't see that as being...
It seems natural that that wouldbe what you would have.
Because as a mother, if I paintpaintings that relate to my
motherhood, another mother isgoing to respond to it quicker.
And it's the same thing withyou, why you respond quicker to
(47:58):
guys.
But you do have women in yourthing.
And you've been...
You've been supportive of anumber of women, including Sonia
Faye and Cece Segura and Marthaand Patsy and Yolanda.
So there's more.
And the opening of that doorallowed us to open the door for
(48:22):
ourselves.
Because that's all it is, isbasically you're opening the
door, and yeah, I know where theart's going, so I'm happy about
it.
SPEAKER_00 (48:30):
It is part of that, you know, because I want the
best art to go in there, and Idon't really care if it's by a
man or a woman.
The perception may be that Ilisten to men more than I do,
but that really doesn't enter mymind.
It's the painting for me.
SPEAKER_05 (48:46):
It's just like they're talking in a voice,
they're presenting a vision thatsomehow you connect with
quicker, Because you're a guy,let's face it, you are a man.
SPEAKER_00 (48:54):
Many men at that.
SPEAKER_01 (48:56):
Well, I'd like to address it from this standpoint,
because I usually get a lot ofthe inquiries that'll come to
teach.
And I will say that 99% of theinquiries we get are from
artists directly.
are from guys.
And I think women, I would saythis, Cheech always says, if you
haven't seen Chicano art, youcan't love it or like it, but if
(49:17):
you don't see it.
So I would encourage womenartists to reach out or to
share.
We have different experiences, Ithink too.
Margaret, you are an excellentmentor for other women artists
in that way, because I hear fromyou pretty regularly and so does
Cheech.
And we know, I mean, you'llsend, and not like you're
(49:37):
sending me time, tons and tonsof images on there, or you're
always making sure that Cheechis invited.
So whatever the case may be,good communication is really
important.
I appreciate that.
And I think, so we have to putmore, that's something I'm
personally, I'm a woman, ofcourse.
So I'm always trying to say,hey, show your art, what's going
on there.
And I know- Didn't I send youSonia Faye?
(49:59):
I think you did, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (50:01):
That's a double-edged sword too.
SPEAKER_01 (50:03):
You
SPEAKER_00 (50:06):
cannot be shy in this.
Shall
SPEAKER_01 (50:08):
I go to the next question or does Ana or Todd
want to weigh in on thatquestion or I can go to the next
one?
I
SPEAKER_04 (50:14):
just want to say something really quickly.
We are a small museum thatstarted out as a pioneer society
that became a historical societyand then morphed into a history
and art museum.
But I depend a lot on myconnections.
So when I first started here 13years ago, we started a
committee called LasContemporáneas, which is a group
(50:35):
of professional Latina womenThey are the ones that turned me
on to Chimaya Gallery andcollecting.
And did you see this artist?
Did you see, do you know CeceSegura?
Do you know the work of MargaretGarcia?
So it's so wonderful to be ableto have that.
Unfortunately, because of oursize, we're limited in storage
capacity, but we just did anassessment with our collections
(51:00):
manager and we found out notonly were we sorely lacking in
collections, art by women.
We are lacking in art by anyLatinos.
Our collection is less than 4%Latino artists.
And it's even less for Asiansand other people of color.
(51:22):
So it is something that themuseum was shocked to find out,
but it's something that we areworking on.
And honestly, thanks to Margaretand her exhibit, this is going
to change.
SPEAKER_02 (51:34):
Well, and I'd like to add on to what Anna said is
that this, the whole industry,the museum industry at this
moment is facing this reckoningwhere every, every collection
manager and curator is lookingat the collection and really
looking at it through adifferent lens and saying, we've
got to rectify this.
We've got to fix this.
(51:54):
And I think, you know, that'sone of the things, you know,
Cheech talks a lot, says a lot,you know, when museums would
come and say, how do you haveall this?
He says, well, I have it becauseyou don't.
I collect it because you haveit.
And I think the beauty of theCheech coming forward now is
that this amazing collection ofwork is going to be not sent off
(52:16):
to a bunch of differentinstitutions as one-offs, but
really celebrated all in oneplace.
And then it'll continue to grow.
We will continue to acquirework, continue to tour it and
share it.
The beauty of this is thatCheech has also gotten the work
out So it hasn't just sat instorage.
It hasn't been in his house.
(52:37):
It's been in museum after museumof all kinds of sizes and shapes
and in all parts of the countryand the world.
And I think that's, you know,that kind of spirit is the core
of the Cheech and, you know, ispart of the DNA that I think we
are very committed tocontinuing.
SPEAKER_01 (52:54):
That's great.
And again, you really hit it.
Like Cheech mentioned this,you've said it, Margaret said
it, we all talked aboutrelationships.
So I think it's getting womenand everyone get their voices to
the table here.
We need to have that connectionand making sure that people
SPEAKER_00 (53:11):
see their work.
Part of the process is to dispelthe rumor that Chicano art is
only for Chicanos.
You know, they're the only onesthat can appreciate it.
I like Matisse.
I like Picasso.
I like Kandinsky.
I like all those artists becauseI appreciate it for the art.
And to kind of put forth thismessage that we're in that
(53:32):
category, where if you look atthe art, we're in that category.
So you can be Lithuanian orZimbabwean and still appreciate
that art.
You don't have to be Chicano,exclusively the Chicano, to
present it.
Appreciate it.
It might...
ring a different bell in youthan it does for somebody else,
(53:52):
but it will definitely ring abell.
And it's getting it out in frontof the people.
The one comment I've heard overand over again as we toured the
country with different sectionsof the collection is that, well,
I didn't think I liked Chicanoart, but now I'm seeing it for
(54:13):
the first time.
Oh, I like this.
well that's Chicano art oh wellthen I like it you know so
that's you hear that story overand over and over again and you
just kind of smile at them okaywell we'd like to do another
show here so you can see evenmore and it's starting to get
out the museum industry if youwere the wheels grind
(54:38):
exceedingly slow in that worldbecause it is the final
imprimatur of social acceptanceof artistic acceptance and
community and whatever standardyou want to put up.
But it's the final imprimatur.
It's in a museum.
Now you get to bring the schoolkids in it or the elderly or
whoever is visiting your citygets to come and see it.
(55:00):
So it's a big deal to have theaccessibility.
And that's always what Chicanosare trying to get.
We want the opportunity andopportunity is the biggest road
we can go on to.
So we're getting there.
(55:22):
It doesn't happen overnight,obviously, but it does happen.
And every step along this wayhas been a joy for me.
to see the art in differentplaces and see the reaction of
the people.
I
SPEAKER_05 (55:39):
don't think anybody else works harder for the
Chicano art community thanCheech.
It's exciting that you'regetting the Cheech together,
that it's coming together.
And I'm excited about being atthe Ventura County because I
just feel like, okay, You know,it's not the end.
I mean, your life, even when youstep away, it's not the end.
(56:01):
You leave something behind.
You've made a contribution.
SPEAKER_01 (56:04):
That was actually a great segue, Margaret, because
the question from Craig Blue is,do you think you're leaving a
legacy as an artist?
And if so, what is it?
And how do you maintain yourauthenticity?
SPEAKER_05 (56:13):
Let me tell you, you know who Craig Blue is?
Craig Blue, I love you, CraigBlue.
Craig Blue is an artist and he'sin New York right now.
He was staying a couple doorsdown at the Rock Rose Gallery,
and he'd come in and work withme.
He put his portfolio together,and he went to Laguna Art
School.
(56:34):
And then he got his MFA.
He's in New York.
He's big now.
But let me tell you, his successis something that is so close.
to my heart.
He's African-American artistwho's doing these wonderful
pieces at the governor's mansionright now.
(56:55):
That's my legacy because you canleave a painting.
Painting is just a painting.
It's a process, right?
But your job as an artist isn'tjust to make art, it's to create
community.
He is part of my community.
He is a beloved person who ispart of my community.
(57:17):
And he and David Flurry andBonnie Lambert and Kiki Eder and
Huberto Luna and Natalie Fertinoand Gloria Vasquez Warner.
And I mean, I can just go on andon.
Salvador Correa.
Oh my God, he's becoming amonster painter.
(57:38):
These people who...
You know, you leave peoplebehind.
And they keep the process going.
They keep moving it forward.
I mean, I am really grateful forthat.
Love you.
Love you, Blue.
Thank you for being there.
SPEAKER_00 (57:56):
Ana, I'd like to ask you a question.
Do you have any fire paintingsin this upcoming exhibition of
Margaret's?
SPEAKER_04 (58:05):
We do.
So when Margaret and I talkedabout putting this exhibit
together, because we have a veryspecific mission, especially
showcase art from Ventura Countyand the surrounding area,
something that I've stretchedover the years to go all the way
up to San Luis Obispo and downto, well, we're down to almost
(58:25):
Palm Springs right now.
But one of the caveats was forMargaret was that she needed to
paint something things, sheneeded to come and do some work
in the area, which she agreed todo.
So that was kind of our firstsojourn out was in the aftermath
of the Thomas fire.
which really hit very close tohome, literally for us.
(58:48):
And I didn't realize thatMargaret had done some fire
paintings before this.
So yes, to answer your question,yes, there will be some fire
paintings.
She did a couple that I thinkwere sold through Chimaya and
were purchased by some of ourlocal collectors.
So we will have at least two, Ibelieve.
(59:10):
We have some pastels.
SPEAKER_00 (59:11):
Yeah, I think those paintings are some of your
strongest and people gravitateto them immediately because
they're extremely emotional,which leads me to one quick,
small question.
How much of painting is aphysical action?
SPEAKER_05 (59:26):
It's out of body thing.
You know, I'm not aware of myphysicality when I'm painting
because I'm only thinking abouthere and the paint and I you
know and then the day's over andI'm like god I'm tired but I
don't think about it it justit's like singing you know you
don't think about how you'regoing to hit the note it just
(59:47):
flows out of you
SPEAKER_00 (59:49):
oh okay but you do get tired after a session huh
SPEAKER_05 (59:52):
Well, some things are quicker than others.
I think that some things arethoughtful.
It depends on the process you'regoing through.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:01):
Thank you, Margaret, for sharing your work.
Thank you for inspiring my pathto being a collector.
Check out Margaret's work on herwebsite at
margaretgarciastudio.com.
Show notes, links, artwork,images that are referenced from
today on the website.
And again, I'll link it fromCheech's website as well.
I do want to encourage you tosave the date for our next
conversation.
(01:00:22):
When Wednesday, June 23rd, 4o'clock.
Pacific time.
Cece Segura-Gonzalez isscheduled for Saturday, June
26th.
Sonia Faye is on Wednesday, June23rd.
And then we're ending withJudith Hernandez on Wednesday,
June 30th.
And you can register online atriversideartmuseum.org.
(01:00:42):
Please tune in again.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00:45):
Goodbye.
Chiflando me mido de frenteSiempre si me enfrenta mi gente
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.