May 28, 2022 • 32 mins
Masayo Ishigure is a world-renowned performer of the Japanese koto. This conversation explores the legacies of Tadao Sawai, Kazue Sawai, Michio Miyagi, and Japanese traditions of composing for the koto. Exploring notions of wabi-sabi, the Meiji period, and hogaku, this podcast looks at the ethical demands of cross-cultural composition. We open up fundamental questions about how a culture changes and evolves while remaining rooted to traditions and heritage.
The Music & Peacebuilding Podcast is hosted by Kevin Shorner-Johnson at Elizabethtown College. Join our professional development network at www.musicpeacebuilding.com - thinking deeply we reclaim space for connection and care.
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Ishigure (00:00):
So that's our challenge. That's my challenge
challenge for us performers. Butwhat we performers can do is to
play songs well, that's the onlything we can do. So the
composers who write songs arevery important. Writing songs
that remain in people's heartsfor a long time. Our job is to
(00:21):
practice those songs to ourfullest.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (00:23):
You are listening to season three of the
music and peacebuilding podcast,a professional development
network at musicpeacebuilding.com Exploring
intersections of peacebuilding,sacredness, community,
creativity and imaginationthrough research and story.
Masayo Ishigure began playingthe koto and Junta Shamisen at
(00:46):
the age of five in Gifu, Japan,and has created an extensive
multifaceted career thatstretches the limits of the koto
while maintaining a strong graspof tradition. After initial
studies with Tadao and KazueSawai, Masayo Ishigure moved to
New York City. She has performedat Lincoln Center, Carnegie Hall
(01:08):
BAM Merkin Hall, Asia Society,Japan Society and the
Metropolitan Museum. She hasbeen invited to perform at
Harvard, Yale, PrincetonColumbia, the Smithsonian, and
will perform at Elizabethtowncollege this fall of 2022. In
2005, Masayo Ishigure was arecording artist alongside
(01:28):
Itzhak Perlman, Yo Yo Ma, andothers on the Grammy Award
winning soundtrack from themovie Memoirs of a Geisha by
John Williams. She has taughtkoto and shamisen at Wesleyan
University Connecticut, andColumbia University since 2010,
and offers private lessons inNew York City, New Jersey and
(01:49):
Washington DC. I want to offerspecial gratitude to Dr. Nobuaki
Takahashi, the translator and aprofessor of Japanese at
Elizabethtown College. Gratitudealso to miss Erin vago, who as a
theater student recorded thevoiceovers for this podcast as
her senior project in voiceacting, and gratitude to Mrs.
(02:11):
Ishigure for permissions to userecordings in this podcast. I
began by asking Ms. Ishigureabout a lifetime of studying and
performing the koto and herrelationship with the Sawais
some of the most importantteachers in the koto tradition
scholarship it
Unknown (02:31):
Yes well let's see, how it started was nothing special
really. My mother used to playKoto when she was young, and it
was just kept in the house asshe brought it as one of the
trousseau items. It was a prettycommon tale back then. Then why
did I start playing it? Well, Idon't really remember it as I
was just fine. But I think Ivaguely remember I started
(02:53):
playing around with it when Iwas about five. Then later on, I
started playing piano when I wasan elementary school student,
but I quit after three lessonsbecause I was scared, scared and
hated the teacher. Well, so Iquit after the third lesson. And
my mother didn't see any reasonto make me continue with piano
lessons. So I completely quit onit. But my mother used to tell
(03:15):
me that I hated piano, but Itook out koto on time and time
to time and played with it. So Iguess I liked Koto. ---- I am
originally from Gifu prefectureand I was taking lessons from a
local Koto teacher, you know,ordinary lessons from an
(03:35):
ordinary teacher. But thisteacher wanted to pursue more by
learning from someone well knownand highly regarded in the field
of Japanese music. Then myteacher became a pupil of Tadao
Sawai and Kazue Sawai, who werethe heads of a Japanese music
school, back then I reallydidn't know much about them, but
I just followed my teacher alongthat was my first encounter was
(03:59):
Tadao and Kazue Sawai ---- Ithink there are many people who
have no idea who they are. Butin the field of Japanese music
Tadao Sawai is one of thebiggest figures. Well, a lot of
people may recognize the nameMichio Miyagi as the most well
known Japanese musician,probably from musical scores,
but Tadao Sawai was equally wellrecognized master of
(04:20):
contemporary Japanese music.
So you need to go to get thehoga KU knock your show to you.
That is theTadao Sawai totally changed the
image of the Japanese music Ihad back then. In the same way
his works changed the image ofJapanese music among many people
in Japan at the time. In a wayhe was like a man of the time.
(04:41):
Well, this is because I'm sureyou know a TV commercial for
Nescafe with a Dabada melodyright? With a catch copy with a
man who can tell a difference inthis commercial. It was like a
series of famous people in itand Tadao Sawai was selected for
one of them. He was alreadyfamous at the time but became
even more famous thanks to thecommercial. Well it was about 35
(05:03):
years ago------anyway, at the time only two
institutions Tokyo NationalUniversity of fine arts and
music, and Osaka University offine arts and music had the
(05:25):
Department of Japanese music.
But a new university in musicwas established in Takasaki
Gunma and it highlighted a newJapanese music department
inviting Tadao Sawai as aninstructor. I don't really
remember how but before I knewit, I was going to this
institution to study Japanesemusic further under Sawai. This
(05:48):
changed my life big time. Upongraduation, I was offered to be
an apprentice in residencespending the next two years a
bit more than two years learninghis music while living with him.
This may be strange orincomprehensible to young people
now but it was a common thing todo in the field of Japanese
music or traditional PerformingArts. It was one of the busiest
(06:10):
times as a musician for him so Ilearned a great deal about his
music firsthand.
When I talked to Kazue Sawaiwell Tadao and Kazue were
(06:33):
married and I talked to Kazuethe wife because Tadao was
deceased back then, but Kazuewas well. She was a person with
foresight paying attention towhat was going on globally. Back
then Japanese Koto was nothinglike Well, the way koto was
viewed with in Japan at the timewas like one of the trousseau
items, or something so oldfashioned that nobody bothered
(06:55):
to listen to or something likethat. Kazue said there would be
no place for people like us tosurvive. She said it would be so
hard for people like us whoproperly and diligently studied
Japanese music at a universitylevel if the people in Japan
kept having such negative imagetowards Japanese music. That's
why Kazue said she wanted tolook outward to the world rather
(07:18):
than inward within Japan, andstarted touring many countries,
contacting many institutions andmusicians in many countries,
taking care of all of theexpenses totally out of her
pocket. One of the many peopleshe contacted was the famous
John Cage in New York. Shecontacted so many people in the
(07:40):
world and literally flew aroundthe world with a mission of let
koto be known to the world. Shegot young people like us who
were 20 to 23. After graduatingfrom the universities, she got
those young people involved sowe could survive on our own,
spending our lifetime spreadingthe art of koto to the world.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (08:05):
Miss Ishigure spoke at the closure of
a traditional Japanese musicprogram at Wesleyan and then the
reopening of that program yearslater. After navigating visa
issues Masayo Ishigure landed inNew York City in 1997, where she
is today. Bonnie Wade's texttitled, composing Japanese
(08:26):
musical modernity notes theimportance of Michio Miyagi and
Tadao and Kazue Sawai to thefield of Japanese Koto playing.
Born blind into the Meiji periodMichiyo Miyagi began a line of,
performer-composers, teachinghimself Koto shamisen and later
shakuhachi. Returning from Koreato Tokyo in 1921, Miyagi brought
(08:51):
together European music withtraditional Japanese music, and
was maybe most importantly, thefirst faculty member to teach
traditional music at the TokyoSchool of Music in 1930. As a
student of Miyagi Tadao, Sawaisought to embrace the koto as a
contemporary instrument ofuniversal expressiveness Tadao
(09:14):
Sawai had a gift for weavingdiverse ensembles together,
writing dynamic and virtuosicparts and quote, sectional
repeats motivic repetitioncontrasts between lyricism and
driving pulsating rhythms. TadaoSawai also wrote music for his
wife Kazue Sawai, who was aprofound performer in her own
(09:37):
right. Listen to the followingarrangement of Sakura, arranged
by Tadao Sawai that artfullybalances the creative life of
change with a grounding intradition. The recording is
offered with generous permissionby Masayo Ishigure from her
album, Grace
Unknown (10:34):
Now why music and why this field of Koto quite
honestly, I don't reallyremember anymore and I don't
really know why myself, butthere is no doubt that I loved
playing Koto and also meetingwith Tadao Sawai was definitely
one big factor. If I didn't meetwith him, I would have never
picked Koto as my life work. SoI suppose I really loved his
(10:57):
music. Sorting, oh, that wouldbe the biggest factor for sure.
I'm sure other members whostudied under Tadao and Kazue so
I would say the same thing,listing it as the biggest factor
for what they do now. There arestill lame old fashioned
customs, especially in the fieldof traditional arts. But in this
globalized world today, Tadaoand Kazue advocated for focusing
(11:21):
more on music rather thangetting tied up with such
unnecessary old customs and manypeople agreed with them. My
local teacher did and other kotomusicians agreed with their
claim and gathered around themso I would say we were a
relatively new group at the time
Ishigure (11:37):
----- It's the same Yes. When I became apprenticed
there were eight of themalready. I was told it was
getting full and nobody can beapprenticed anymore. But because
(11:57):
Tadao Sawai was so busy withlots of work, all of the
apprentices had things to do.
Nobody was left out with nothingto do because Tadao and Kazue
Sawai were so big in the fieldat the time when I came to New
York, everything was relativelysmooth getting offers and jobs
and my name was spreading amongpeople. This was mainly because
I was a student of Tadao Sawaipeople wanted to learn Sawai's
(12:21):
music and people wanted teacherswho could teach Sawai's music so
people were saying if you takelessons from Masayo Ishigure we
can learn Tadao Sawai's musicand I never really had any
problem having students I oweTadao and Kazue so I greatly for
this. If I were myself withoutSawai's brand. Everybody would
(12:42):
be like Who the heck are you?
Right? Really, I am so grateful.
Thanks to them. I am where I amtoday.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (12:53):
In her comments to follow Masayo
Ishigure seems to lament thedeclining attentions of
audiences and the need formodern music to adapt to
changing audience tastes. Thiswas the reason for a pragmatic
move by performers away fromtraditional and classical music
and toward music that attractsaudiences. According to Ms.
(13:16):
Ishigure, those schoolsperformers that stick to
traditional music are in steadydecline. Ms. Ishigure talks
about Tokyo National Universityand the decline of Koto study.
Ishigure (13:30):
So maybe I shouldn't say this, but the classical
components are less and lessvalued nowadays. One phenomenon
that shows this trend is TokyoNational University of fine arts
and music in Japan. They havethe Department of Japanese
music. A while back. Theparticular department only
(13:50):
admitted the students wholearned from those very
traditional and conservativeteachers, or saw the entrance
skill test was specifically forthose strictly classical pieces,
and those who cannot play itwere not admitted. But recently,
the number of applicants hasbeen so low that they had to
change their system to attractmore students, like applicants
(14:11):
can shoot for specific areassuch as contemporary Koto, song
and so on. Otherwise, theycannot attract Japanese
students. In fact, 90% of thestudents learning shakuhachi are
foreign natives. For Koto, eventhough they graduate with a
degree it is nothing but a labeland there is no guarantee that
they will be able to supportthemselves as full time
(14:33):
professional Koto players simplybecause they graduated from
Tokyo National University offine arts and music. So, the
enrollment is suffering so muchto the extent that they have had
to completely split thecontemporary Koto and classical
Koto, to survive to avoidclosure of the whole Koto
program, because students do notwant to learn both. Most of them
(14:55):
either want to learncontemporary or classical. The
situation is getting that badright now. ---So I would say we
already passed the crisis a longtime ago and it is getting worse
than crisis situation then theJapanese government was involved
and Junior High in high school.
I think junior high schoolcurriculum now has five or six
(15:18):
traditional musical then likeTaiko, koto, flute, shamisen,
things like that. The juniorhigh school students are
required to take something outof those options. That's the
requirement right now. It's beenabout 10 plus years, so some not
many of them sometimes continueon to koto club in high school
(15:39):
and such. You know, when theylearn it at a young age, they
get good relatively quickly, andsome of them ended up becoming
professional Koto players likethose who started in junior high
or high school club activities.
So honestly, the whole notion ofwabi sabi is really touched upon
(15:59):
in books. I know we are supposedto talk about it when we write a
book or getting an interviewlike right now, but my
impression is that the majorityof musicians on the contemporary
Japanese music field is like,what the heck is wabi sabi? I am
not that different myself,either. I don't think I live in
that type of bookish notion anylonger. If you impose on such
(16:21):
relic, nobody will follow you,myself included. That's the
reality. Maybe I should say,even so I embrace and value the
traditional Japanese valuesright now. But I don't think
most of the koto performersthink that way. Maybe 1% of them
say something beautiful likethat, but I think they just say
it without really believing init. Yes, we can't survive if we
(16:46):
do that. I don't think peoplenow will accept it. Okay, but
it's really true. This is thereality right now, because
everybody plays Koto as a job.
We need to live our livesplaying Koto, so we need to
survive with this music right?
Then it is just natural that wechoose the best possible way to
(17:07):
survive, right? We can't surviveby doing something that will not
be kept in the future. If nobodyacknowledges and accepts my
music, nobody will come to me.
That's what I think. So there isno choice. This is inevitable.
This is the trend right now inhistory.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (17:27):
The transition in history from the
Edo period to the Meiji periodat the birth of the 20th
century, was one of the mostintense periods of rapid
westernization in world history.
In a brief space of decades,Japan shifted radically toward
Eurocentric music, and held atenuous an ever changing
relationship with traditionalmusic, or hogaku. Drawing on the
(17:49):
scholarship of Martha Gonzalez,I struggle with Eurocentric
capitalist economies of artisticproduction, and how these often
unquestioned structures frameour musical identities and
engagements. How do modernsystems of economy and
monetization alter and harmculture and identity. Listening
(18:11):
is an act that takes time,attention, and is the very
antithesis of a fast movingeconomy of competing attentions.
As a counter cultural move,listen to Tori no Yo ni, flying
like a bird, composed TadaoSawai. This piece imagines
dreamscapes of flying in openskies and the happiness when
(18:36):
quote, dreams fill our heartsand we float in the sky like a
bird The following section is acritique of the problematic
(20:09):
practices of modern composition.
While this section names a storyof harm that involves the
Memoirs of a Geisha soundtrack,I reflect that I may sometimes
be complicit. When do I move tosurface level understandings of
the exotic Other and use thepressure of time and production
to undermine mutual relationshipand a depth of understanding?
(20:33):
When are cultural artifacts ofthe Other objectified, monetized
and appropriated? How do we holdspaces of time, mutuality and
understanding where music quote,remains in people's hearts?
Unknown (20:53):
------
Ishigure (20:55):
Well, the reason they write Koto songs is because they
need to get their hands onsomething new and interesting to
survive. So it can be anythingany unusual instrument would do.
So they pick uncommoninstruments and write songs to
become famous. It's so obviousit's their intention, but they
don't know the instruments atall. Quite frankly, the famous
(21:18):
John Williams is no exception.
Well, when I had the honor ofplaying Koto for the film,
Memoirs of a Geisha, it was likethat, well, he is an expert. In
fact, he is the expert ofexpert, so he did not just write
something just to writesomething he asked me to meet
bring in koto and told me thatit was his first time to write a
song for koto. So tell me whatkoto can do and what it cannot
(21:40):
do. So I went to his office atUniversal Studios and told him
exactly what koto could do andwhat it couldn't while I was
super nervous so there werethings I couldn't touch upon.
But what he wrote was somethingimpossible to play with Koto
there were many scenes I got abunch of music sheets for
different scenes, but some ofthem were simply physically
(22:01):
impossible with Koto
Unknown (22:04):
----------
Ishigure (22:04):
And I still clearly remember well, I don't mean to
(22:31):
only point it to John Williams,but they need to study more.
That's how I feel. Some of themwere simply impossible, not just
to me, but any genius kotoperformer cannot play it just
physically impossible. But hesaid I needed to play it. The
whole orchestra was there andyou know, orchestra is a union,
(22:52):
so you can't go over therecontracted work time, not even
one minute, right? So he orderedme do it now. Do it now. He
asked the whole orchestra tostep aside and told me to play
alone. Then seeing me struggle.
He asked me to play it with theharp performer and then with two
harp performers. The other 100orchestra members were just
sitting around waiting for usKoto and harp players to be
(23:15):
done, and the particular songwasn't even used. So my point
is, I'm sure he thought heneeded to use Japanese
instruments because the theme ofthe film was Geisha and that's
why he hired me, but I don'tthink Koto was effectively used
in the film. For example, if heincorporates Koto in his music,
the essence and uniquecharacteristics of Koto should
(23:39):
be kept, but the famous JohnWilliams could have taken it to
the next level. I mean, I'm nottrying to talk bad about him or
anything. I'm not someone whocan criticize him. But I wanted
the experience to be like, Wow,that's the world class composer
John Williams, making Koto musicinto something extraordinary.
But unfortunately, it was notlike that. So when he asked me
(24:03):
to play with the harp, it wasjust impossible but he didn't
realize that. I thought Iexplained it, but it was not
understood. So in the future, somany new composers will write a
lot of Koto songs, and while Itruly appreciated it, I
sincerely hope that what theywill write should be something
that needs to be played withKoto. There are so many songs
(24:26):
that people think this doesn'tneed to be on koto. It would be
much more beautiful on piano. Ioften think why do I have to
play this song on Koto? That'swhy Koto songs just come and go
without remaining in people'shearts. Those composers do not
or cannot play Koto themselves.
(24:47):
So they just write their songson a piano, write it on a music
score for piano handed to Kotoperformers and simply impossible
to play. Further since theirknowledge on koto is lacking.
Many songs end up being the onesthat people wonder why it was
written specifically for Koto.
So if I give my humble advice tothe future composers, I want
(25:10):
them to study more includingwabi sabi. There is no composer
right now, who writes songs thathas to be on Koto, while having
something new and yetmaintaining traditional taste. I
know that's a lot to ask. Andit's really hard. I am saying
this because I'm not the one todo so as I am not a composer.
(25:31):
But really, there is no composerlike that. They just read books
and think they understand it.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (25:41):
Ms.
Ishigure spoke against bookishnotions of wabi sabi that trade
depth, mutuality and care forintellectual exercise. Davies
and Ikeno Note that wabi sabi isan aesthetic, or a Japanese
belief in beauty in which theaustere the aged, and the
embrace of absence and emptinessis beautiful. For music, this
(26:01):
aesthetic reveals itself insparse textures and silences,
and Sonic paintings with formalelements. For poetry. This
aesthetic reveals itself asHaiku, where an economy of
syllables praises the withered,the worn, and the simple,
isolated, decaying beauty.
(26:25):
However, if we stop at this, wehave only reached a surface
level understanding. As wabisabi is, quote, not found in the
features of manifest existence.
Rather, it is created in themind of the beholder. In unseen
qualities, there is a beauty ofimagination that happens in
mindful intentions. As Ilistened to Ishigure's language
(26:48):
of the music that quote, touchespeople's hearts, I wonder if it
is this deeper internal sense ofbeauty to which she refers.
Ishigure (27:02):
There are so many composers who write their songs
to show off their knowledge,like, look what I can do in my
music, like they are full of Iknow this. I know this, I read
this kind of bookish songs, butthey don't resonate. They don't
touch people's hearts. whoeverlistens to those kinds of songs
would be like, Huh, okay. Sothat's our challenge. That's my
(27:27):
challenge. Challenge for usperformers. I mean, it's not
only for us performers, but whatwe performers can do is to play
songs well. That's the onlything we can do. So the
composers who write songs arevery important. Writing songs
that remain in people's heartsfor a long time. Our job is to
(27:48):
practice those songs to ourfullest.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (27:52):
Masayo Ishigure offers a challenge for
greater depth. She named theproblems of surface level
branding that promote music asan act of peace without moving
to sufficient depth. I embraceMs. Ishigure's thoughtful
challenge to move deeper. As Istudied the Haiku poetry of
Basho and the artful renderingsof Ms. Ishigure, I recognize
(28:18):
that at the heart of thesetraditions is a challenge to the
hubris of over intellectualizingand making grand pronouncements.
The great poet Basho found peacewithin a single austere moment
that crosses thresholds betweenouter and inner peace. In
(28:38):
paintings of language and sound,we may cultivate habits of
beauty that embrace the humble,the fleeting, the layered moment
to moment noticings of beautifulexistence.
From the records of a travelworn satchel Basho writes, it
was in the middle of April whenI wandered out to the beach, the
(29:02):
sky was slightly overcast andthe moon on a short night of
early summer had special beauty.
The mountains were dark withfoliage, when I thought it was
about time to hear the firstvoice of the cuckoo. The light
of the sun touched the easternhorizon. And as it increased, I
began to see on the hills ofUeno ripe ears of wheat tinged
(29:22):
with reddish brown, andfisherman's huts scattered here
and there, among the flowers of
white Poppy. His poem (29:31):
At sunrise I saw // Tanned faces of
fishermen // Among the flowersof white Poppy.
This tradition invites us toread between the lines, adding
the depth where internal meetsthe external and from the depth
(29:55):
of this tradition, we end with atrack Sunae that sounds the
austere fall of grains of sandand the limitations of our
grasp.
(30:37):
The challenge of change is inbalancing our need to change to
learn to grow with a sense ofgroundedness and who we are.
This is the challenge of everyrelationship and often the
foundations of conflict,including the relation of Koto
performance to our musicalworlds, building on the
(30:58):
traditions of Miyagi and Sawai,Ms. Ishigure advocates that the
koto will not be restricted as arelic of the past, or an object
of the exotic but embraced withthe dignity of opportunities to
evolve, to change and communewith other traditions. However,
(31:19):
those who choose to write newpaths for the koto must take the
time to honor culture and livewithin traditions. The line
between objectification andembrace is narrow and one that
must be ever discerned.
Special thanks to Ms. Ishigurefor her music, and the elegant
(31:41):
challenge of her desire to makemusic that touches people's
hearts. Special thanks to ErinVago and Dr. Nobuaki Takahashi
for their work on translations.
At Elizabethtown College, Dr.
Takahashi and Dr. Bhattacharya,lead an outstanding program in
Japanese language study.
Featured at Elizabethtowncollege this fall of 2022 Masayo
(32:03):
Ishigure's album Grace can befound on streaming services
everywhere.
This is the music andpeacebuilding podcast hosted by
Kevin Shorner-Johnson. AtElizabethtown College, we host a
master of music education withan emphasis in peacebuilding.
(32:25):
thinking deeply we reclaim spacefor connection and care. Join us
at music peace building.com
So that's our challenge. That's my challenge
challenge for us performers. Butwhat we performers can do is to
play songs well, that's the onlything we can do. So the
composers who write songs arevery important. Writing songs
that remain in people's heartsfor a long time. Our job is to
(00:21):
practice those songs to ourfullest.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (00:23):
You are listening to season three of the
music and peacebuilding podcast,a professional development
network at musicpeacebuilding.com Exploring
intersections of peacebuilding,sacredness, community,
creativity and imaginationthrough research and story.
Masayo Ishigure began playingthe koto and Junta Shamisen at
(00:46):
the age of five in Gifu, Japan,and has created an extensive
multifaceted career thatstretches the limits of the koto
while maintaining a strong graspof tradition. After initial
studies with Tadao and KazueSawai, Masayo Ishigure moved to
New York City. She has performedat Lincoln Center, Carnegie Hall
(01:08):
BAM Merkin Hall, Asia Society,Japan Society and the
Metropolitan Museum. She hasbeen invited to perform at
Harvard, Yale, PrincetonColumbia, the Smithsonian, and
will perform at Elizabethtowncollege this fall of 2022. In
2005, Masayo Ishigure was arecording artist alongside
(01:28):
Itzhak Perlman, Yo Yo Ma, andothers on the Grammy Award
winning soundtrack from themovie Memoirs of a Geisha by
John Williams. She has taughtkoto and shamisen at Wesleyan
University Connecticut, andColumbia University since 2010,
and offers private lessons inNew York City, New Jersey and
(01:49):
Washington DC. I want to offerspecial gratitude to Dr. Nobuaki
Takahashi, the translator and aprofessor of Japanese at
Elizabethtown College. Gratitudealso to miss Erin vago, who as a
theater student recorded thevoiceovers for this podcast as
her senior project in voiceacting, and gratitude to Mrs.
(02:11):
Ishigure for permissions to userecordings in this podcast. I
began by asking Ms. Ishigureabout a lifetime of studying and
performing the koto and herrelationship with the Sawais
some of the most importantteachers in the koto tradition
scholarship it
Unknown (02:31):
Yes well let's see, how it started was nothing special
really. My mother used to playKoto when she was young, and it
was just kept in the house asshe brought it as one of the
trousseau items. It was a prettycommon tale back then. Then why
did I start playing it? Well, Idon't really remember it as I
was just fine. But I think Ivaguely remember I started
(02:53):
playing around with it when Iwas about five. Then later on, I
started playing piano when I wasan elementary school student,
but I quit after three lessonsbecause I was scared, scared and
hated the teacher. Well, so Iquit after the third lesson. And
my mother didn't see any reasonto make me continue with piano
lessons. So I completely quit onit. But my mother used to tell
(03:15):
me that I hated piano, but Itook out koto on time and time
to time and played with it. So Iguess I liked Koto. ---- I am
originally from Gifu prefectureand I was taking lessons from a
local Koto teacher, you know,ordinary lessons from an
(03:35):
ordinary teacher. But thisteacher wanted to pursue more by
learning from someone well knownand highly regarded in the field
of Japanese music. Then myteacher became a pupil of Tadao
Sawai and Kazue Sawai, who werethe heads of a Japanese music
school, back then I reallydidn't know much about them, but
I just followed my teacher alongthat was my first encounter was
(03:59):
Tadao and Kazue Sawai ---- Ithink there are many people who
have no idea who they are. Butin the field of Japanese music
Tadao Sawai is one of thebiggest figures. Well, a lot of
people may recognize the nameMichio Miyagi as the most well
known Japanese musician,probably from musical scores,
but Tadao Sawai was equally wellrecognized master of
(04:20):
contemporary Japanese music.
So you need to go to get thehoga KU knock your show to you.
That is theTadao Sawai totally changed the
image of the Japanese music Ihad back then. In the same way
his works changed the image ofJapanese music among many people
in Japan at the time. In a wayhe was like a man of the time.
(04:41):
Well, this is because I'm sureyou know a TV commercial for
Nescafe with a Dabada melodyright? With a catch copy with a
man who can tell a difference inthis commercial. It was like a
series of famous people in itand Tadao Sawai was selected for
one of them. He was alreadyfamous at the time but became
even more famous thanks to thecommercial. Well it was about 35
(05:03):
years ago------anyway, at the time only two
institutions Tokyo NationalUniversity of fine arts and
music, and Osaka University offine arts and music had the
(05:25):
Department of Japanese music.
But a new university in musicwas established in Takasaki
Gunma and it highlighted a newJapanese music department
inviting Tadao Sawai as aninstructor. I don't really
remember how but before I knewit, I was going to this
institution to study Japanesemusic further under Sawai. This
(05:48):
changed my life big time. Upongraduation, I was offered to be
an apprentice in residencespending the next two years a
bit more than two years learninghis music while living with him.
This may be strange orincomprehensible to young people
now but it was a common thing todo in the field of Japanese
music or traditional PerformingArts. It was one of the busiest
(06:10):
times as a musician for him so Ilearned a great deal about his
music firsthand.
When I talked to Kazue Sawaiwell Tadao and Kazue were
(06:33):
married and I talked to Kazuethe wife because Tadao was
deceased back then, but Kazuewas well. She was a person with
foresight paying attention towhat was going on globally. Back
then Japanese Koto was nothinglike Well, the way koto was
viewed with in Japan at the timewas like one of the trousseau
items, or something so oldfashioned that nobody bothered
(06:55):
to listen to or something likethat. Kazue said there would be
no place for people like us tosurvive. She said it would be so
hard for people like us whoproperly and diligently studied
Japanese music at a universitylevel if the people in Japan
kept having such negative imagetowards Japanese music. That's
why Kazue said she wanted tolook outward to the world rather
(07:18):
than inward within Japan, andstarted touring many countries,
contacting many institutions andmusicians in many countries,
taking care of all of theexpenses totally out of her
pocket. One of the many peopleshe contacted was the famous
John Cage in New York. Shecontacted so many people in the
(07:40):
world and literally flew aroundthe world with a mission of let
koto be known to the world. Shegot young people like us who
were 20 to 23. After graduatingfrom the universities, she got
those young people involved sowe could survive on our own,
spending our lifetime spreadingthe art of koto to the world.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (08:05):
Miss Ishigure spoke at the closure of
a traditional Japanese musicprogram at Wesleyan and then the
reopening of that program yearslater. After navigating visa
issues Masayo Ishigure landed inNew York City in 1997, where she
is today. Bonnie Wade's texttitled, composing Japanese
(08:26):
musical modernity notes theimportance of Michio Miyagi and
Tadao and Kazue Sawai to thefield of Japanese Koto playing.
Born blind into the Meiji periodMichiyo Miyagi began a line of,
performer-composers, teachinghimself Koto shamisen and later
shakuhachi. Returning from Koreato Tokyo in 1921, Miyagi brought
(08:51):
together European music withtraditional Japanese music, and
was maybe most importantly, thefirst faculty member to teach
traditional music at the TokyoSchool of Music in 1930. As a
student of Miyagi Tadao, Sawaisought to embrace the koto as a
contemporary instrument ofuniversal expressiveness Tadao
(09:14):
Sawai had a gift for weavingdiverse ensembles together,
writing dynamic and virtuosicparts and quote, sectional
repeats motivic repetitioncontrasts between lyricism and
driving pulsating rhythms. TadaoSawai also wrote music for his
wife Kazue Sawai, who was aprofound performer in her own
(09:37):
right. Listen to the followingarrangement of Sakura, arranged
by Tadao Sawai that artfullybalances the creative life of
change with a grounding intradition. The recording is
offered with generous permissionby Masayo Ishigure from her
album, Grace
Unknown (10:34):
Now why music and why this field of Koto quite
honestly, I don't reallyremember anymore and I don't
really know why myself, butthere is no doubt that I loved
playing Koto and also meetingwith Tadao Sawai was definitely
one big factor. If I didn't meetwith him, I would have never
picked Koto as my life work. SoI suppose I really loved his
(10:57):
music. Sorting, oh, that wouldbe the biggest factor for sure.
I'm sure other members whostudied under Tadao and Kazue so
I would say the same thing,listing it as the biggest factor
for what they do now. There arestill lame old fashioned
customs, especially in the fieldof traditional arts. But in this
globalized world today, Tadaoand Kazue advocated for focusing
(11:21):
more on music rather thangetting tied up with such
unnecessary old customs and manypeople agreed with them. My
local teacher did and other kotomusicians agreed with their
claim and gathered around themso I would say we were a
relatively new group at the time
Ishigure (11:37):
----- It's the same Yes. When I became apprenticed
there were eight of themalready. I was told it was
getting full and nobody can beapprenticed anymore. But because
(11:57):
Tadao Sawai was so busy withlots of work, all of the
apprentices had things to do.
Nobody was left out with nothingto do because Tadao and Kazue
Sawai were so big in the fieldat the time when I came to New
York, everything was relativelysmooth getting offers and jobs
and my name was spreading amongpeople. This was mainly because
I was a student of Tadao Sawaipeople wanted to learn Sawai's
(12:21):
music and people wanted teacherswho could teach Sawai's music so
people were saying if you takelessons from Masayo Ishigure we
can learn Tadao Sawai's musicand I never really had any
problem having students I oweTadao and Kazue so I greatly for
this. If I were myself withoutSawai's brand. Everybody would
(12:42):
be like Who the heck are you?
Right? Really, I am so grateful.
Thanks to them. I am where I amtoday.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (12:53):
In her comments to follow Masayo
Ishigure seems to lament thedeclining attentions of
audiences and the need formodern music to adapt to
changing audience tastes. Thiswas the reason for a pragmatic
move by performers away fromtraditional and classical music
and toward music that attractsaudiences. According to Ms.
(13:16):
Ishigure, those schoolsperformers that stick to
traditional music are in steadydecline. Ms. Ishigure talks
about Tokyo National Universityand the decline of Koto study.
Ishigure (13:30):
So maybe I shouldn't say this, but the classical
components are less and lessvalued nowadays. One phenomenon
that shows this trend is TokyoNational University of fine arts
and music in Japan. They havethe Department of Japanese
music. A while back. Theparticular department only
(13:50):
admitted the students wholearned from those very
traditional and conservativeteachers, or saw the entrance
skill test was specifically forthose strictly classical pieces,
and those who cannot play itwere not admitted. But recently,
the number of applicants hasbeen so low that they had to
change their system to attractmore students, like applicants
(14:11):
can shoot for specific areassuch as contemporary Koto, song
and so on. Otherwise, theycannot attract Japanese
students. In fact, 90% of thestudents learning shakuhachi are
foreign natives. For Koto, eventhough they graduate with a
degree it is nothing but a labeland there is no guarantee that
they will be able to supportthemselves as full time
(14:33):
professional Koto players simplybecause they graduated from
Tokyo National University offine arts and music. So, the
enrollment is suffering so muchto the extent that they have had
to completely split thecontemporary Koto and classical
Koto, to survive to avoidclosure of the whole Koto
program, because students do notwant to learn both. Most of them
(14:55):
either want to learncontemporary or classical. The
situation is getting that badright now. ---So I would say we
already passed the crisis a longtime ago and it is getting worse
than crisis situation then theJapanese government was involved
and Junior High in high school.
I think junior high schoolcurriculum now has five or six
(15:18):
traditional musical then likeTaiko, koto, flute, shamisen,
things like that. The juniorhigh school students are
required to take something outof those options. That's the
requirement right now. It's beenabout 10 plus years, so some not
many of them sometimes continueon to koto club in high school
(15:39):
and such. You know, when theylearn it at a young age, they
get good relatively quickly, andsome of them ended up becoming
professional Koto players likethose who started in junior high
or high school club activities.
So honestly, the whole notion ofwabi sabi is really touched upon
(15:59):
in books. I know we are supposedto talk about it when we write a
book or getting an interviewlike right now, but my
impression is that the majorityof musicians on the contemporary
Japanese music field is like,what the heck is wabi sabi? I am
not that different myself,either. I don't think I live in
that type of bookish notion anylonger. If you impose on such
(16:21):
relic, nobody will follow you,myself included. That's the
reality. Maybe I should say,even so I embrace and value the
traditional Japanese valuesright now. But I don't think
most of the koto performersthink that way. Maybe 1% of them
say something beautiful likethat, but I think they just say
it without really believing init. Yes, we can't survive if we
(16:46):
do that. I don't think peoplenow will accept it. Okay, but
it's really true. This is thereality right now, because
everybody plays Koto as a job.
We need to live our livesplaying Koto, so we need to
survive with this music right?
Then it is just natural that wechoose the best possible way to
(17:07):
survive, right? We can't surviveby doing something that will not
be kept in the future. If nobodyacknowledges and accepts my
music, nobody will come to me.
That's what I think. So there isno choice. This is inevitable.
This is the trend right now inhistory.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (17:27):
The transition in history from the
Edo period to the Meiji periodat the birth of the 20th
century, was one of the mostintense periods of rapid
westernization in world history.
In a brief space of decades,Japan shifted radically toward
Eurocentric music, and held atenuous an ever changing
relationship with traditionalmusic, or hogaku. Drawing on the
(17:49):
scholarship of Martha Gonzalez,I struggle with Eurocentric
capitalist economies of artisticproduction, and how these often
unquestioned structures frameour musical identities and
engagements. How do modernsystems of economy and
monetization alter and harmculture and identity. Listening
(18:11):
is an act that takes time,attention, and is the very
antithesis of a fast movingeconomy of competing attentions.
As a counter cultural move,listen to Tori no Yo ni, flying
like a bird, composed TadaoSawai. This piece imagines
dreamscapes of flying in openskies and the happiness when
(18:36):
quote, dreams fill our heartsand we float in the sky like a
bird The following section is acritique of the problematic
(20:09):
practices of modern composition.
While this section names a storyof harm that involves the
Memoirs of a Geisha soundtrack,I reflect that I may sometimes
be complicit. When do I move tosurface level understandings of
the exotic Other and use thepressure of time and production
to undermine mutual relationshipand a depth of understanding?
(20:33):
When are cultural artifacts ofthe Other objectified, monetized
and appropriated? How do we holdspaces of time, mutuality and
understanding where music quote,remains in people's hearts?
Unknown (20:53):
------
Ishigure (20:55):
Well, the reason they write Koto songs is because they
need to get their hands onsomething new and interesting to
survive. So it can be anythingany unusual instrument would do.
So they pick uncommoninstruments and write songs to
become famous. It's so obviousit's their intention, but they
don't know the instruments atall. Quite frankly, the famous
(21:18):
John Williams is no exception.
Well, when I had the honor ofplaying Koto for the film,
Memoirs of a Geisha, it was likethat, well, he is an expert. In
fact, he is the expert ofexpert, so he did not just write
something just to writesomething he asked me to meet
bring in koto and told me thatit was his first time to write a
song for koto. So tell me whatkoto can do and what it cannot
(21:40):
do. So I went to his office atUniversal Studios and told him
exactly what koto could do andwhat it couldn't while I was
super nervous so there werethings I couldn't touch upon.
But what he wrote was somethingimpossible to play with Koto
there were many scenes I got abunch of music sheets for
different scenes, but some ofthem were simply physically
(22:01):
impossible with Koto
Unknown (22:04):
----------
Ishigure (22:04):
And I still clearly remember well, I don't mean to
(22:31):
only point it to John Williams,but they need to study more.
That's how I feel. Some of themwere simply impossible, not just
to me, but any genius kotoperformer cannot play it just
physically impossible. But hesaid I needed to play it. The
whole orchestra was there andyou know, orchestra is a union,
(22:52):
so you can't go over therecontracted work time, not even
one minute, right? So he orderedme do it now. Do it now. He
asked the whole orchestra tostep aside and told me to play
alone. Then seeing me struggle.
He asked me to play it with theharp performer and then with two
harp performers. The other 100orchestra members were just
sitting around waiting for usKoto and harp players to be
(23:15):
done, and the particular songwasn't even used. So my point
is, I'm sure he thought heneeded to use Japanese
instruments because the theme ofthe film was Geisha and that's
why he hired me, but I don'tthink Koto was effectively used
in the film. For example, if heincorporates Koto in his music,
the essence and uniquecharacteristics of Koto should
(23:39):
be kept, but the famous JohnWilliams could have taken it to
the next level. I mean, I'm nottrying to talk bad about him or
anything. I'm not someone whocan criticize him. But I wanted
the experience to be like, Wow,that's the world class composer
John Williams, making Koto musicinto something extraordinary.
But unfortunately, it was notlike that. So when he asked me
(24:03):
to play with the harp, it wasjust impossible but he didn't
realize that. I thought Iexplained it, but it was not
understood. So in the future, somany new composers will write a
lot of Koto songs, and while Itruly appreciated it, I
sincerely hope that what theywill write should be something
that needs to be played withKoto. There are so many songs
(24:26):
that people think this doesn'tneed to be on koto. It would be
much more beautiful on piano. Ioften think why do I have to
play this song on Koto? That'swhy Koto songs just come and go
without remaining in people'shearts. Those composers do not
or cannot play Koto themselves.
(24:47):
So they just write their songson a piano, write it on a music
score for piano handed to Kotoperformers and simply impossible
to play. Further since theirknowledge on koto is lacking.
Many songs end up being the onesthat people wonder why it was
written specifically for Koto.
So if I give my humble advice tothe future composers, I want
(25:10):
them to study more includingwabi sabi. There is no composer
right now, who writes songs thathas to be on Koto, while having
something new and yetmaintaining traditional taste. I
know that's a lot to ask. Andit's really hard. I am saying
this because I'm not the one todo so as I am not a composer.
(25:31):
But really, there is no composerlike that. They just read books
and think they understand it.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (25:41):
Ms.
Ishigure spoke against bookishnotions of wabi sabi that trade
depth, mutuality and care forintellectual exercise. Davies
and Ikeno Note that wabi sabi isan aesthetic, or a Japanese
belief in beauty in which theaustere the aged, and the
embrace of absence and emptinessis beautiful. For music, this
(26:01):
aesthetic reveals itself insparse textures and silences,
and Sonic paintings with formalelements. For poetry. This
aesthetic reveals itself asHaiku, where an economy of
syllables praises the withered,the worn, and the simple,
isolated, decaying beauty.
(26:25):
However, if we stop at this, wehave only reached a surface
level understanding. As wabisabi is, quote, not found in the
features of manifest existence.
Rather, it is created in themind of the beholder. In unseen
qualities, there is a beauty ofimagination that happens in
mindful intentions. As Ilistened to Ishigure's language
(26:48):
of the music that quote, touchespeople's hearts, I wonder if it
is this deeper internal sense ofbeauty to which she refers.
Ishigure (27:02):
There are so many composers who write their songs
to show off their knowledge,like, look what I can do in my
music, like they are full of Iknow this. I know this, I read
this kind of bookish songs, butthey don't resonate. They don't
touch people's hearts. whoeverlistens to those kinds of songs
would be like, Huh, okay. Sothat's our challenge. That's my
(27:27):
challenge. Challenge for usperformers. I mean, it's not
only for us performers, but whatwe performers can do is to play
songs well. That's the onlything we can do. So the
composers who write songs arevery important. Writing songs
that remain in people's heartsfor a long time. Our job is to
(27:48):
practice those songs to ourfullest.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (27:52):
Masayo Ishigure offers a challenge for
greater depth. She named theproblems of surface level
branding that promote music asan act of peace without moving
to sufficient depth. I embraceMs. Ishigure's thoughtful
challenge to move deeper. As Istudied the Haiku poetry of
Basho and the artful renderingsof Ms. Ishigure, I recognize
(28:18):
that at the heart of thesetraditions is a challenge to the
hubris of over intellectualizingand making grand pronouncements.
The great poet Basho found peacewithin a single austere moment
that crosses thresholds betweenouter and inner peace. In
(28:38):
paintings of language and sound,we may cultivate habits of
beauty that embrace the humble,the fleeting, the layered moment
to moment noticings of beautifulexistence.
From the records of a travelworn satchel Basho writes, it
was in the middle of April whenI wandered out to the beach, the
(29:02):
sky was slightly overcast andthe moon on a short night of
early summer had special beauty.
The mountains were dark withfoliage, when I thought it was
about time to hear the firstvoice of the cuckoo. The light
of the sun touched the easternhorizon. And as it increased, I
began to see on the hills ofUeno ripe ears of wheat tinged
(29:22):
with reddish brown, andfisherman's huts scattered here
and there, among the flowers of
white Poppy. His poem (29:31):
At sunrise I saw // Tanned faces of
fishermen // Among the flowersof white Poppy.
This tradition invites us toread between the lines, adding
the depth where internal meetsthe external and from the depth
(29:55):
of this tradition, we end with atrack Sunae that sounds the
austere fall of grains of sandand the limitations of our
grasp.
(30:37):
The challenge of change is inbalancing our need to change to
learn to grow with a sense ofgroundedness and who we are.
This is the challenge of everyrelationship and often the
foundations of conflict,including the relation of Koto
performance to our musicalworlds, building on the
(30:58):
traditions of Miyagi and Sawai,Ms. Ishigure advocates that the
koto will not be restricted as arelic of the past, or an object
of the exotic but embraced withthe dignity of opportunities to
evolve, to change and communewith other traditions. However,
(31:19):
those who choose to write newpaths for the koto must take the
time to honor culture and livewithin traditions. The line
between objectification andembrace is narrow and one that
must be ever discerned.
Special thanks to Ms. Ishigurefor her music, and the elegant
(31:41):
challenge of her desire to makemusic that touches people's
hearts. Special thanks to ErinVago and Dr. Nobuaki Takahashi
for their work on translations.
At Elizabethtown College, Dr.
Takahashi and Dr. Bhattacharya,lead an outstanding program in
Japanese language study.
Featured at Elizabethtowncollege this fall of 2022 Masayo
(32:03):
Ishigure's album Grace can befound on streaming services
everywhere.
This is the music andpeacebuilding podcast hosted by
Kevin Shorner-Johnson. AtElizabethtown College, we host a
master of music education withan emphasis in peacebuilding.
(32:25):
thinking deeply we reclaim spacefor connection and care. Join us
at music peace building.com
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