December 22, 2022 • 50 mins
This is the second in a two-episode series exploring the legacy of Daisaku Ikeda and the practice of dialogue. In this episode, we ask how wisdom, courage, and compassion is lived and practiced through music and dialogue. In particular, we look at how genuine dialogue might bring out the best in ourselves as we look to bring out the best in the other. Together with Olivier Urbain, Kevin Maher, and Anri Tanabe, we explore how this is lived out at the Min-on Music Research Institute and the Ikeda Center for Peace, Learning and Dialogue.
The Music & Peacebuilding Podcast is hosted by Kevin Shorner-Johnson at Elizabethtown College. Join our professional development network at www.musicpeacebuilding.com - thinking deeply we reclaim space for connection and care.
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Episode Transcript
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Olivier Urbain (00:00):
And then what is it that best is best in me and
best in you, your courage, yourwisdom, your compassion. So
basically, it's about bringingout my own courage, wisdom and
compassion, through the processof dialogue here and now, and
bringing those qualities withinyou. And then letting you do
(00:20):
that to me, at the same time, inreal time here and now
Anri Tanabe (00:24):
Like a purpose.
And, like sense of belonging,because when we don't have that,
I think it becomes so easy toisolate ourselves and just focus
on what's, you know, what'swhat's right in front of us
without really thinking about,like, the interconnectedness and
what's happening in the worldand how does what I do affect
what's happening across thecountry. You know, there's this
(00:46):
disconnect of what I do doesn'tmatter.
Kevin Maher (00:50):
peacebuilding starts with the person right in
front of you. It's not solelysome grand endeavor that is
focused on the entire.. anentire nation or country but or
world but it's really startswith the person right in front
of us. And if we can't have thatrespect or belief in that
potential, in the person rightin front of us, then it's, it's
(01:13):
almost impossible to to havethat same faith in the potential
of all of humankind.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (01:19):
You were listening to season three of the
music and peacebuilding podcast,a professional development
network at musicpeacebuilding.com Exploring
intersections of peacebuilding,sacredness, community,
creativity and imagination.
Through research and story. Wereturned to part two of a
conversation with Olivier Urbainon music and peacebuilding. In
(01:40):
this episode, we add the voicesof Kevin Maher and Andre Tanabe.
To discuss how Ikeda's practiceof dialogue is lived and
practiced. Together. With thesethree voices, we will explore
inner transformation, HumanRevolution, dialogue, and
practices of courage, wisdom andcompassion. Olivier Urbain is
(02:01):
the director of the Min onResearch Institute and is a
published scholar onpeacebuilding. Kevin Maher is
the executive director for theIkeda Center, where he oversees
programs, publications and thestrategic plan of the center.
Anri Tanabe is the OutreachManager at the center where she
manages the education FellowsProgram, Market Center books and
(02:23):
contributes to programming,Inner transformation and Human
Revolution. These two pieces arereally important. You, you note
that Ikeda introduces a visionwhere each individual no matter
how small they may be, has thepower to enact and envision
peace. And you quote, Ikeda asstating, quote, a great inner
(02:44):
revolution in just a singleindividual will help achieve a
change in the destiny of anation and further will cause a
change in the destiny ofhumankind. So speak to the
nature of this inner revolution.
I hear the resonance from the,from the Buddhist philosophy,
(03:06):
but yeah, what is this innerrevolution in the lens of Ikeda?
Unknown (03:10):
Oh, thank you. That's this chapter five, right?
Chapter five in the book.
Absolutely. So I realized thatthe people I admire most who
have really changed the worldinside out, like, for example,
Gandhi, you take Gandhi, I'dlike to quote from Gandhi, "we
but mirror the world, all thetendencies present in the outer
(03:33):
world, are to be found in theworld of our body. If we could
change ourselves, the tendenciesin the world would also change."
And then Henry Gibson said,"people want only special
revolutions in externals, inpolitics, and so on. But that's
just tinkering. What really iscalled for is a revolution of
(03:55):
the human mind." So this idea ofchanging yourself, to be able to
change your community and tochange the world has been, you
know, can be found throughouthistory, throughout
civilizations all over theworld. It's not anything that is
special to any teaching or orphilosophy. But what Makiguchi
(04:16):
Toda and Ikeda established is agrassroots movement that is
based on this idea of innertransformation, and they give it
a special name, which is HumanRevolution. But Human Revolution
is one way to do innertransformation. So you have
(04:40):
inner transformation inChristianity, for example, when
Tolstoy wrote, you know, thekingdom of God is within you.
That for me, that's really like,yeah, exactly. Right. So you
have that in Judaism you havethat In Islam, you've that in
all religions in Hinduism. Andyou have also that in the UNESCO
(05:04):
declaration in the preamble isthat you know, since since wars
start in the mind of people, itis in the minds of people that
the fortresses or the beginningof peace has to be established,
right. So whether you havespirituality or not doesn't
(05:27):
matter. What I did in myresearch on Ikeda is try to
translate this idea of HumanRevolution in a specific way,
recommended by Makiguchi, Toda,Ikeda, in terms of everybody can
understand and very quickly,those three virtues appeared in
all the writings, not always bythree, sometimes it's just two
(05:51):
courage, wisdom, or courage,compassion or wisdom,
compassion, but sometimes allthree, and definitely, all three
are important. So it's aboutwisdom, and courage and
compassion.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (06:11):
What does it mean to bring up the best in
the other, Urbain spoke ofcourage, wisdom and compassion
as the activator, the spark ofhope and the opening to
relationship, the best inourselves is dependent on
bringing out the best in others.
Our dependence is aninterdependence, where we find
ourselves entangled in a web oflife, Urbain turned to talk of
(06:33):
Ikeda speech at ColumbiaUniversity, where Ikeda laid out
interconnectedness as thefoundational principle of global
citizenship. What do wisdom,courage and compassion look like
when they are upheld byinterconnection?
Unknown (06:51):
What kind of wisdom?
What is the most importantwisdom? To be able to embrace
the whole planet? Is the wisdomto perceive the
interconnectedness of all life.
exactly your question. So amongall the types of wisdom that we
(07:12):
have, Ikeda recommends, thewisdom to proceed that
absolutely everything isinterconnected - our lives with
all the lives of other people,like you know, today, I was able
to put some air conditioning isvery, very hot, I didn't build
the machine, I didn't bring theelectricity here, I didn't
create the air. Many, manypeople plus elements of the
(07:35):
planet made it possible for meto have fresh air in my room.
It's lots of people already. Andthen I had breakfast, who
brought me the food, whoprepared it, who built the plate
today, you know, if you thinkabout how many people
contributed to you, Kevin havingheadphones on your, you know,
(07:55):
and shirt, just that that'sinterconnectedness. And of
course, not just betweenhomosapiens but all living
creatures, all animals, allplants and rocks, and the sky
and the air. So everything isinterconnected. And when we make
decisions, when we think aboutwhat we want to do in life,
(08:17):
Ikeda recommends to activatethis wisdom, that everything is
interconnected.
Then, based on that the type ofcourage that he recommends is
the courage to embracedifference. To understand that
(08:38):
we are all unique, other peoplewill not think exactly like you
do, they will have differentskin color, different gender,
different sex, different sexualorientations, socio cultural,
economic background. But if youcan see the interconnectedness
of all living beings then yourpart of the web of life, and the
(08:59):
person in front of you isequally part of the web of life.
And you have lots of things totalk about together and build
together based on thatinterconnectedness. So
difference is great, differencehelps you to grow and to
activate your your criticalthinking. Because if somebody
doesn't agree with you, it'slike a professional, critical
(09:20):
thinker for free right in frontof you. And now you have to
respond something. So thecourage to embrace difference,
and finally, the compassion toimagine the suffering of other
people. And in the thisparagraph, Ikeda talks about
imagining the suffering ofpeople who are in even even in
faraway places, but we are allvery far away from each other.
(09:44):
For example, let's say I meetyou for the first time in a
coffee shop somewhere. I'venever met you before. I have a
certain impression of who youare. I have no idea where you
come from the stories you haveto tell what you went through
what you're thinking about. Ijust decide, okay, he looks like
this, maybe he's like that justan impression. I have no
(10:05):
compassion, for your strugglesfor your life for your joy for
your suffering. So even though Iwould sit next to you, you are
very, very far. So when Ikedasays the compassion to imagine
the sufferings, and of course,the joys, but the sufferings of
other people, he's talking aboutthat, he's talking about
imagining the incrediblepotential each person has. So
(10:28):
this package of wisdom, courageand compassion. It's really
interesting, because little bylittle, it became the center of
so many studies today, there isa whole field of study on Soka
education, for example, atDePaul University in Chicago, or
Guelph??, or Laval, in Canada,in Spain, also in all over the
(10:54):
world, those are appearing, butthey're also centres of studies
for global citizenship, and alsofor Ikeda peace studies. And
what I noticed now because I'mlike, you know, kind of going
around all of them. Basically,they all go back to that one
paragraph of wisdom, courage andcompassion. Because even today,
(11:19):
when you think in terms ofglobal governance, international
relations, political science,it's very, very rare to start
with human virtues. It's aboutall kinds of things economics
and finance and mutualunderstanding and negotiations.
(11:43):
But very rarely do you includeyour own courage, wisdom and
compassion in the package. Sofor Ikeda to declare in 96 that
global citizenship meansbasically those three virtues is
still revolutionary. Today,
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (11:59):
we turn to a recording titled "we are
the future," the performer Danjaproduced this recording Lyrics
by Danja, Belle Aires and Catonyvocals by Danja, Belle Aires and
the End Time Harvest ChildrenChoir Maiduguri, this recording
is provided with generouspermission by Min-on and Danja.
(12:34):
[music][music] So dialogue, you know I
(12:55):
understand that we're on thiscontinuous journey to find
connection points with others.
Yes, and my favorite quote herewas, was where he says,
"engaging in dialogue is astruggle to positively transform
our own life as well as that ofothers. It is the act of
(13:15):
breaking out of the shell of ourlesser self surmounting
surmounting the wall of ourcallous ego and creating and
expanding positive connectionswith others." So talk about this
vision of dialogue, that, and itmoves well beyond simple
conversation, to moments wherehearts might be opened. And the
(13:38):
sense of letting the dialogue doits work to change us.
Unknown (13:43):
So dialogue is like the essential ingredient to move
from inner peace to actual,concrete peace outside. And I
was wondering, why is it thatIkeda has so many dialogues he's
had literally 1000s and 1000s ofdialogues with people of all
(14:06):
walks of life. And if I, if Ilook at, for example, the list
of published dialogues, thosethat were actually, you know,
not only you discuss together,but then after that you write to
each other and you edit it andyou you make the effort to
publish a book. That's there'salmost 80 of them today. So I
(14:29):
was wondering what What is hetrying to accomplish? Because
after the dialogue is done,those people do not join
anything. They do not becomemembers of anything, they just
continue their lives. You know,so I decided to read the
dialogues that were available atthe time and I started I read
(14:51):
about 12 When I could now seeclearly the pattern. And to make
a long tale short. I summarizeThe intention underneath every
dialogue as a decision to bringout, to bring out the best in
yourself and in others. So, forinstance, here we have, we are
(15:15):
having a dialogue. And maybe myintention is to sound really
great for the public to becomefamous or to make you happy. Or
I might have all kinds ofintentions, but what if my
intention is simply to bring outthe best in myself, really try
my best to bring out what's bestin me. And of course, bring out
(15:38):
what's best in you. And thenimagine that you're doing the
same in reverse. So now we canreally, really talk about
anything we want freely based onthat intention. And then what is
it that's best, that's best inme and best in you? Well,
everything we've talked about sofar, your courage, your wisdom,
your compassion. So basically,it's about bringing out my own
(16:03):
courage, wisdom and compassion,through the process of dialogue
here and now and bringing thosequalities within you, and then
letting you do that to me, atthe same time, in real time,
here and now.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (16:18):
Ikeda writes that if one single drop
of the water of dialogue isallowed to fall on the wasteland
of intolerance. Quote, "therewill be a possibility for trust
and friendship to spring up." InSeptember of 1993, Daisaku,
Ikeda delivered a speech atHarvard University that laid the
(16:39):
foundations for the Ikeda centerfor peace, learning and dialogue
in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Iasked the center's director
Kevin Maher, about how thecenter lives out practices of
dialogue within its mission.
Kevin Maher (16:54):
Inspired by that lecture, and by other messages
he sent to the center, we've,our mission has been to bring
like minded students, scholars,young professionals,
peacebuilders, into dialogue onglobal issues, and discuss, you
(17:16):
know, approaches andperspectives in terms of how we
can really foster a culture ofpeace for us as a center. Rather
than having a stance that we weknow everything and we're here
to teach we're learning we'rereally I mean, we there's an
intention behind having peacelearning and dialogue in the
name is that we're learningthrough those those
(17:38):
conversations
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (17:40):
Urbain notes that dialogue may be used
to bring out the best in theself and other, letting quote,
"people's common humanity shinedespite, or rather through
differences and backgrounds,lifestyles and worldviews."
Urbain later writes, I believethat for Ikeda also, dialogue is
a way to reach our commonhumanity through the logos,
(18:03):
putting human reason at theservice of a more humane world,
a way to ensure that the I paysfull attention to and brings out
the best in the "you." I askedAnri Tanabe of the Ikeda center
to expand on understandings ofhow bringing out the best in the
other is practiced in dialogueat the Ikeda center.
(18:26):
So that, that, that piece ofbringing out the best in the
other that's come out a lot inmy talks with Olivier and I was
curious, how do you see thatrealized within your practice of
dialogue about this bringing outthe best in the other?
Unknown (18:42):
Yeah, I think what I see at the dialogue night's
event is I think it's a spacewhere people can really self
reflect. And I think often indialogue, we come in thinking,
oh, I want someone to listen tome, you know, maybe that's kind
of the intention that peopleenter a dialogue with, that, you
(19:04):
know, this person is wrong. AndI have to convince them that my
opinion is right. But bringingout the best in oneself and
others, I think, giving thespace to really think about what
the purpose of the dialogue is.
And maybe the end goal is notreally to convince anybody but
to understand one anotherbetter. And I think the more
that we can really understandourselves and other people, we
(19:25):
give space for a solution tocome out through like a shared
understanding. And so it's notabout convincing someone that
I'm right and they're wrong, butreally coming to a better
understanding of the otherperson but also of ourselves.
We have a list of coreconvictions that that guide our
(19:48):
work, all of it, essentiallybeing informed by Mr. Ikeda's
approach and one of the coreconvictions is that it's
critical to maintain faith andpeople's potential for good.
Recognizing that potentialthrough dialogue and our
interactions with us, not onlyis Anri sharing, I feel, impacts
(20:11):
the intention and tone of thedialogue itself, but it enriches
our lives in the process. And Ithink that connects with that
the larger idea of theinterdependence of all life,
that when we.. it's not just arecognition that we're
connected, but it is throughthose connections, it is through
mutual support and encouragementthat we grow as individuals, in
(20:35):
addition to the person in frontof us. And having that kind of
stance, that kind of approach,really impacts the way that we
interact with each individual.
And for us, I think peace, peacebuilding, means and this is
inspired by Elise Boulding'swork too peacebuilding starts
with the person right in frontof you. It's not, it's not
solely some grand endeavor thatis focused on the entire an
(21:00):
entire nation or country, but,or world, but it's really starts
with the person right in frontof us. And if we can't have that
respect, or belief in thatpotential in the person right in
front of us, then it's, it'salmost impossible to have that
same faith in the potential ofall of humankind.
(21:23):
If you really practice thisintention of bringing out the
best in yourself and othersthrough dialogue, you do that
every day 24/7 For years, then Ithink you can come to that kind
of very risky. Proposition. Youknow, actually, when there is a
(21:49):
video that's available to thepublic, where he he meets
Gorbachev, and they're going tosit down for the dialogue. And
he meets Gorbachev, and he says,Oh, you, I really don't agree
with so many things you do, andyou say, so let's have a good
fight. But the way he said it,they both burst out in laughter,
right? Because the if theintention is what we've been
(22:11):
talking about, so it's really astruggle, I can't do it 24/7
Many times I have dialogues toobtain things or to convince
people or to get out ofsituations or, but I always try
to remind myself, wait, wait, wewait, this is a unique
opportunity, maybe I will neverbe able to speak to that person
again. What about bringing outthe best in myself and the other
(22:33):
person as a basis? And do therest of the conversation around
that? Yeah.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (22:44):
I think I would reflect back to you after
reading the book that as I wasreading about his move to
document his dialogue, Ithought, here's somebody who's
doing it well ahead of the curvein that almost considering
dialogue to be the form ofscholarship, you know, that you
encounter these people and youdo the work of publication. And
(23:08):
I was hearing the resonance inmy own decision to to take this
direction where I was going intopodcasting and say, I'm going to
put as much effort intopodcasting as I do into writing
a book chapter and consider itto be a new form of scholarship.
And I would resonate with thedegree to which being in this
(23:29):
kind of space changes me..
dialogue. So I just I wanted toreally honor that that I really,
yeah, I'm really in awe of thatmove that he made.
Olivier Urbain (23:38):
Yeah, absolutely. In a way each book
is a is a written podcast.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (23:42):
Yeah, it is. Exactly. He was well ahead
of the curve. He predictedpodcasting. Exactly what he did.
Absolutely.
So I was also curious, becausecourage, wisdom and compassion
comes up so much. And I wascurious about how how do you
(24:07):
communicate these values ofcourage, wisdom, compassion, and
how do you see courage, wisdom,compassion lived out within
dialogue?
Unknown (24:15):
That's a wonderful question. I'm smiling because we
have a seminar series welaunched last year called the
global citizen seminar series,and the first and this is a
series, a seminar that engagesdoctoral students with senior
scholars and in conversationover a sustained seminar. So the
(24:40):
same group meeting severaltimes. In the first year, we had
a deep conversation on thosethree elements of wisdom,
courage and compassion. Andthere are questions of can those
characteristics be taught? Howcan they be fostered? And I
think what and Anri pleasecorrect me if I'm misremembering
(25:00):
but a lot of it came down toit's something that we have to
model in practice ourselves, andthat it comes through, it really
comes through and dialogue inthat way. And that these are not
sort of abstract ideas, but howdo we, in our own lives grapple
with? How do we become morecompassionate? How do we use our
wisdom to help others and, youknow, and courage being sort of
(25:24):
the, the linchpin between allthree is that without courage,
you know, we won't, we won't,even if we have wisdom, we won't
be able to take the action thatwe need to. You know Mr. Ikeda
writes about this or talks aboutthis. And you know, without,
without courage, it's, it's, itcan become almost impossible to
(25:46):
act for on behalf of others. Soreally grappling ourselves with
what does it mean to continue todeepen those, those values in
our own life, and then model itthrough our behavior and our
engagement with others. And weall agree that it's, it's an
ongoing process, it's not likewe get to a place where we've
(26:07):
sort of maxed out our, even ourcompassion, we never get to a
point where it's like, okay, I'mas compassionate as I can
possibly be. Always, there'salways gonna always go deeper
there. And every day, it's sortof recognizing it's about it's
a, it's a path, not, you know,not an endpoint. But it's a way
of being. And I feel dialogue isthe same, we can continue to be
(26:31):
more dialogic, both withourselves and with others, and
that we learn that through thatconnection with others. And I
think, again, those those threeelements of wisdom, courage and
compassion, that withoutengagement with others, they
they're entirely theoretical.
You know, it's really about howwe interact with other human
beings, that we see them aliveand thrive.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (26:57):
So Anri, as you do these dialogues, what
are what do you find now to bethe pressing concerns that are
being brought up by the youth indialogue now?
Unknown (27:06):
I think, maybe not the most pressing concern, because I
think at any given time, youknow, we all have our unique
worries or, you know, concernson what's what's happening right
in front of us. But I think,this need for connection and
being able to bring that out,and just being able to share
(27:26):
have spaces where we're able toshare what we're feeling or
going through. And I think justmaybe having like, a purpose and
like sense of belonging, I thinkthat comes up often. Because
when we don't have that, I thinkit becomes so easy to isolate
ourselves and just focus onwhat's, you know, what's what's
(27:47):
right in front of us withoutreally thinking about, like, the
interconnectedness and what'shappening in the world, and how
does, what I do affect what'shappening across the country,
you know, in a war torn area, orthere's this disconnect of like,
what I do doesn't matter. Andbeing able to really converse
with others, dialogue withothers, and really understand
(28:10):
that what we do in our dailylife actually does have an
impact on the world. And I thinkwith that, you know, people feel
more inspired to be able to takeaction, but I think so just
like, being able to talk aboutthese issues that feel so big.
And being able to have thissense of what I do will actually
matter.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (28:30):
Yeah, I would echo that I've, I've
really sensed that wordbelonging is it's everywhere
now. And but and yet, it's sucha complex word. Try I think, I
think that maybe my focus nextyear is really digging into the
social psychology aboutbelonging. And, you know, what,
what are the different colors ofthat word? As it changes for
(28:51):
people?
Anri Tanabe (28:52):
Yeah, we actually right? Was it 2019? Kevin, maybe
early 2019. We had an event onloneliness, we call that the
loneliness epidemic. And thatwas actually our highest
attended event, I think, like anumber maybe, like,
Kevin Maher (29:11):
close to 90,
Unknown (29:12):
Yeah, it was really big. And, you know, there were
many people who actually hadnever heard about the Ikeda
center before. A lot of times,you know, the people who come
either have been here before orhave friends. But for that
event, specifically, people hadseen you know, this topic or
even Googled like events onloneliness. And they came really
(29:35):
seeking this connection andwanting to figure out how to how
to grapple with it, how to dealwith it, how to move forward
from it, and I think with the2020 I think even more so you
know, now it's people are reallytrying to figure out you know,
what they can do and how theycan feel that So, the the sense
(29:58):
of belonging
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (30:02):
In his 2022 book on belonging, Jeffrey
Cohen notes belonging is less akeystone belief and more like a
perception that is being createdanew in every situation. He
later notes quote, "the keyquestion is not what is our
nature, but what are theelements of situations that draw
out the better angels of ournature" In bringing out the
(30:26):
better parts within ourselvesand others. Music may help us
craft situations that connect,repair and deepen our well
being. Urbain speaks of ourpotential to use music to
connect, build belonging, andpeace.
Unknown (30:42):
Overall, the book has a very optimistic view of what
music can do using the nowforbidden phrase, the power of
music, if you want, you know,any music scholar,
ethnomusicologist to run awayfrom you just use that phrase,
it's forbidden now. Okay. So Igot pretty sophisticated
(31:05):
criticism from fantasticscholars who, you know, very
kindly wrote in their article ortheir book, there is this guy,
he believes in the potential,whatever the positive power of
music, how naive and this andthat, okay. And I took that as a
form of dialogue, they're tryingto bring the best out of me. So
(31:29):
through that process, Iestablished some kind of rules
for myself if you want rulenumber one, the ambivalence of
music. It's completelyambivalent. I mean, I go do I go
the other extreme, I say thatmusic has absolutely no value
for peace by itself, you can usea piece of music to torture
(31:50):
people, you can even set trapsto distract them and kill them
with music. You can do whateveryou want, because music for good
or for evil its completelyambivalent. Now, the bad news is
that for peacebuilders is notenough to just use music, for
peacebuilding, it couldbackfire, like terribly. The
good news is that, since it's sopowerful, to do bad things, and
(32:16):
do good things, then if youchoose to do good things, you
have a chance of creatingsomething good, that's the good
news, but it is totallyambivalent. The second thing is
that the beauty of the melodiesand the chords and the rhythm is
all wonderful, but that's notconducive to peacebuilding at
(32:37):
all, what is are people, itspeople and how people treat each
other that will you know, movethings towards more peace or or
towards less peace and moreviolence. But what music does is
that it touches you Itinfluences you, it changes your
(32:57):
mood, it changes your yourrelationship with your
environment, and then if you canplay music together or sing
together or listen to musictogether, it creates a deep
connection with another humanbeing it can do that with entire
groups also and the people whoare affected and changed by this
musical activity. Are now if youwant in a better position to
(33:22):
decide to talk to do things forpeacebuilding.
So the question about music and,and peace. So the second
important thing is that music isa form of action, it accompanies
(33:45):
human action. So there is thisphenomenal book called
musicking. You know, a verbmusicking by Christopher
Christopher Small 1998. Thewhole book is about that is
about the fact that it's notonly about the sounds and the
beauty of the melodies andeverything. But it's really
about what we do with music, howwe treat each other with music.
(34:10):
So there's the musicking part.
And then there's other veryimportant elements, but I would
say a third one is the fact thatit's not universal. Music is not
universal. Music can be foundall over the planets. So in that
way it is universallydistributed. But to have the
illusion that the music I likeeverybody will like it. Oh, this
(34:36):
this piece of music. I'm sureeverybody in the world will like
it because I feel it's sobeautiful. That is impossible.
You can find 1000s of people whowill hate that music for all
kinds of reasons. So based onall our sound and musical
experiences, even starting inthe womb, we can hear you know
the heartbeat of our motheralready as soon as we have for
(34:58):
around four or five months, youknow the embryo can hear it. So
all our musical experiences goodand bad, create in us our music,
personal musical culture. Andall the songs old or new songs
that can be included in thatmusical world we would
(35:21):
experience as pleasant andinteresting and happy. And those
that contradicted or arecompletely unfamiliar and that
we don't feel like learning ormusic that we are forced to hear
under torture, for example, arein terrible conditions, we will
hate that music, whereas otherswill like it. So if we put those
three together, I think we havea good start, like, how would
(35:44):
you like to start thinking aboutmusic and peace? Okay, start
like this. Number one, music iscompletely ambivalent. It's not
for peace. You make it for peaceif you want, but it's not for
peace. Number two, it's allabout action. Music by itself is
completely useless. But when itaccompanies action, it can
(36:05):
change everything. And numberthree, music is not universal.
Be very careful who is right infront of you that you want to
play music with, or the groupright in front of you ask them
about their musical tastes andexperiences and build it from
there. So that's, that's thetheory I gained if you want
after years and years of those,if you want academic dialogues.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (36:30):
Urbain speaks of the work of Min-on to
develop human music technologiesthat overcome barriers to
belonging within aninterconnected world.
Unknown (36:38):
And after years of research, I decided to focus on
human relationships, that a lotof the peacebuilding work we
need to do, whether it's aboutclimate change, or about, you
(36:58):
know, racial injustice or sexualinjustice or gender or sex
orientation, socio economic,age, nationality, ethnicity,
political choice, the.. are youhuman or not, if you're not
human, you're an animal, you'rea plant, I can treat you like I
can do whatever I like. That'salso a form of discrimination.
So all those separations, I wantto focus on that I want to
(37:22):
develop the greatest musicaltechnology to overcome those
artificial barriers, to create afeeling of connection and of
belonging, between everythingand everything because of the
interconnectedness of all lifeand living. So that's what we
(37:44):
do. We organize conferences, wepublish articles. We now produce
videos. We have started, a radioprogram is going to start in
Japanese next month, followed bywebinars in English. Probably
next year. And above all, we'vebeen working for two - three
(38:06):
years now. On a an online hub.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (38:10):
This online hub seeks to connect
musical peacebuilders around theworld Urbain spoke of an
inclusive vision for music, andthe journey of the Min on
concert association to bring theLa Scala opera to Japan.
Unknown (38:25):
One of the great achievements of Min-on is to
have brought La Scala of Milan,the whole Scala like 500 people
personnel, with trucks ofcostumes, to tour all over
Japan. And the director of thela Scala at the time, made a
famous declaration in anewspaper and he said Min-on was
able to bring the entire laScala, except for the building.
(38:49):
Wow. So yes, it started withwith Western classical music you
can imagine in 1963 in Japan, ifyou want to do something for
world peace, understanding andbeing friends with with the West
was definitely a major stepforward. But very quickly,
because the the idea behindMin-on that was proposed by
(39:12):
Ikeda is how can we reallyensure that people can learn
about each other can connectwith each other? Through music
and the arts? Let's establish aconcert association. So that's
the basic intention. So veryquickly, you realize that
interconnectedness of all thingsand people it's not just Western
(39:33):
classical music, of course. Sothen Min-on started to invite
the Beijing opera, for example,or drumming, drumming troops
from from Africa, traditionalmusic from Korea from all over
the world from so it's this ifyou want a early decolonial
(39:54):
thinking that this idea thatthere is a an evolution of
music. That we started withsomething very simple to come to
the very, very sophisticated,multi tonal western music. I
personally am totally againstthat kind of idea. I think music
is in is in the here and now andthat all types of music have
(40:16):
something to offer. And I mean,if you want to compete with the
intricacies of African drumming,or Latin American drumming, and
compare that to westernclassical drumming, you know,
good luck. Right?
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (40:31):
Yeah, that whole road of comparison is
not helpful.
Unknown (40:34):
No, it's not. It's not it's, you know, how we connect
with each other through music inthe moment.
Olivier Urbain (40:50):
So interconnectedness of all human
beings and all living beingsdoesn't really have a center.
You have to be very carefulabout that. It's not a certain
superior skin color type ofpeople who decide how to
interconnect the world. Thecenters are everywhere.
(41:14):
Everybody is the center of theentire interconnectedness of the
world. Which means your history,your village, your town, your
music, your background, is themost important thing that we
need to preserve and honor. Sothat's why we have we have
videos now about all types ofmusic by all types of people.
(41:37):
But of course, from the angle ofhow could this be contributing
to a better world more peaceful,more harmonious, more
respectful, more, more, yeah,more in in harmony with nature
and the biosphere? Maybe that'sthe only thing that we
consciously push forward is thisidea of music and peacebuilding.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (42:03):
In the introduction to the book, hope
and joy in education, engagingDaisaku Ikeda across curriculum
and context, Jason Goulah writesabout hope, joy,
interdependence, and continualprocesses of being and becoming,
he writes, human education,quote, "calls on us to encourage
(42:24):
the individual right in front ofus to believe in everyone's
unique and unlimited potential,to never give up on anyone no
matter what. But it is alsoequally, an approach that
demands that we awaken to thefull scope, and possibility of
our own humanity, andhumaneness." An awakening to the
(42:47):
fullness of interdependence isone that collapses dualisms,
quote, "and views humanities asinherently interdependent with
all phenomena." As he quotesIkeda, Goulah notes that this
perspective taking requires amovement from the egoistic less
herself to the infinite orgreater self, inspired by
(43:11):
Goulah's writing, and Olivier'slanguage of interconnectedness.
I asked about imaginations ofconnectedness with Kevin and
Anri of the Ikeda Center,
Unknown (43:23):
our focus is really on, on cultivating rather than
saying this is this is aspecific approach, or this is a
path to how you engage indialogue, really cultivating an
ethos and a greater ethos or, orphilosophy of, how do we live
with a vision towards how deeplyconnected we all are, and how
(43:45):
the, you know, Mr. Ikeda oftentalks about how the happiness of
others is deeply connected toour our own happiness, but the
suffering of others is as well.
So we really live with that sortof ethos in mind. It's
transformational, both ourselvesand others. And so I love that
that approach that you'retalking about, and that idea of
imagination, I mean, again, Iinvoked her name earlier, but
(44:08):
Elise Boulding. And I often talkabout if we want to, you know,
we live in a culture of war, ifwe want to envision we want to
have a culture of peace, we needto envision what that would look
like. It can't be just sort ofan abstract idea. And so
starting with that vision, andthen working backwards, what are
the steps needed to take to gettowards that? I think the idea
of imagination is so key.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (44:31):
One thing I would reflect to is that as
I've been sitting with theIkeda, one of the things that's
really come to the forefront forme that I think I've experienced
before is that this this powerof interconnectedness, I mean,
in many ways, it's a it's afaculty of the imagination or
maybe it starts that way thatyou have to understand you know,
the, where does this shirt comefrom the all the things that
(44:54):
surround me in my life and howit.. how my life is so
intertwined with others and ourcapacity to imagine into the
interconnectedness, maybe is acapacity to connect.
Unknown (45:07):
Wow. And that, like helps us understand our
connection to the environmenttoo, right. You know, like, with
the climate activists, you know,talking about how if we can
understand, like, like you said,where your shirt comes from and
who's involved in, you know,creating the food, or growing
the food from the land andgetting it to our table, and
(45:31):
really not being able to treatthe earth poorly, if we
understand that, this is thefood that nourishes our body,
and this is what we give to theEarth is what comes back to us,
you know, in that cyclicalconnection. And I feel like,
when we separate that, itbecomes so easy to think that
(45:52):
we'll have resources forever, orwhat I do doesn't impact anybody
else.
Yet, in his Harvard in the 93,Harvard lecture, he talks about
so interdependence is that isthe sort of the third key
approach to peace building forhim. And he says that in that
talk, he says that nothing andno one exists in isolation. And
(46:15):
all things are mutuallysupporting an interrelated,
forming a living Cosmos, andsort of that grander vision of
what interdependence might mean,Jason Goulah was a scholar,
advisor to the center, but ascholar on Ikeda's work, he
often talks about Ikeda's ideaof Kyosei, the Japanese, the
Japanese term forinterdependence, one of the ways
(46:36):
that it's translated, which Ithink you might appreciate, is
creative coexistence. So it'snot just that we're our lives,
that we're just connected in away that, you know, homes that
are very close together,connected, but that we, this
idea that, that we coexist, weco-arise through creativity
(46:57):
through engagement with eachother and how it's a living,
breathing, ongoing process of,of living together. I love that
image of it, rather than justcoincidental just the
connection, but rather it'smutually supporting and
thriving.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (47:17):
That's so cool yeah, I'm always fascinated
by the ways in which languageilluminates deeper
understandings of concepts thatare sometimes shallow in other
languages. So yeah, it seemsbeautiful.
In from the ashes, Ikeda writes"I believe that dialogue holds
the key to any lasting solution.
Now, more than ever, we mustreach out in a further effort to
(47:38):
understand each other and engagein genuine dialogue. Words
spoken from the heart, have thepower to change a person's life.
They can even melt the ice wallsof mistrust that separate
peoples and nations. We mustexpand our efforts to promote
dialogue between and amongcivilizations."
(48:05):
A poem I wrote, inspired by thelanguage of Ikeda and others in
this podcast, may we bring outthe best in ourselves by
bringing out the best in others,melting ice walls, where rain
falls upon wastelands ofintolerance, germinating seeds
(48:26):
of trust, empathy, courage,wisdom, compassion, building
imaginations of interconnection,that hold nothing more, but the
impossibility of our separation.
Friends, this brings to a closeseason three of the music and
(48:48):
peacebuilding podcast, one thathas journeyed through language
of belonging, agency,entrainment, embodiment,
hospitality, compassion and ourcare for place. I have been
forever changed by the voicesacross this season, and have
felt your listening presence onthis journey. If you value this
(49:12):
music and peacebuilding podcast,please leave a review such that
others can find this space. In afew months, we will be back to
launch a new journey ofdiscovery.
Olivier Urbain's books "DaisakuIkeda's philosophy of peace" and
"music and conflicttransformation" are published by
IB Taurus press an imprint ofBloomsbury publishing. The
(49:36):
website of the Min on concertAssociation and the Min on
Research Institute can be foundat WWW dot men hyphen en.org.
Special thanks to Min on forpermissions to use recordings
across these podcasts. The Ikedacenter for peace learning and
dialogue can be found at WWW dotIkeda center.org The book cited
(50:02):
in this podcast hope and joy andeducation engaging Daisaku Ikeda
across curriculum and context isedited by Isabel Nunez and Jason
Goulah and available from theIkeda Center. I recommend
exploring their books andpublications as well as their
podcast titled The dialoguestudio.
(50:23):
This is the music andpeacebuilding podcast hosted by
Kevin Shorner-Johnson. AtElizabeth town College, we host
a master of music education withan emphasis in peacebuilding.
thinking deeply we reclaim spacefor connection and care. Join us
at music peace building.com
And then what is it that best is best in me and
best in you, your courage, yourwisdom, your compassion. So
basically, it's about bringingout my own courage, wisdom and
compassion, through the processof dialogue here and now, and
bringing those qualities withinyou. And then letting you do
(00:20):
that to me, at the same time, inreal time here and now
Anri Tanabe (00:24):
Like a purpose.
And, like sense of belonging,because when we don't have that,
I think it becomes so easy toisolate ourselves and just focus
on what's, you know, what'swhat's right in front of us
without really thinking about,like, the interconnectedness and
what's happening in the worldand how does what I do affect
what's happening across thecountry. You know, there's this
(00:46):
disconnect of what I do doesn'tmatter.
Kevin Maher (00:50):
peacebuilding starts with the person right in
front of you. It's not solelysome grand endeavor that is
focused on the entire.. anentire nation or country but or
world but it's really startswith the person right in front
of us. And if we can't have thatrespect or belief in that
potential, in the person rightin front of us, then it's, it's
(01:13):
almost impossible to to havethat same faith in the potential
of all of humankind.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (01:19):
You were listening to season three of the
music and peacebuilding podcast,a professional development
network at musicpeacebuilding.com Exploring
intersections of peacebuilding,sacredness, community,
creativity and imagination.
Through research and story. Wereturned to part two of a
conversation with Olivier Urbainon music and peacebuilding. In
(01:40):
this episode, we add the voicesof Kevin Maher and Andre Tanabe.
To discuss how Ikeda's practiceof dialogue is lived and
practiced. Together. With thesethree voices, we will explore
inner transformation, HumanRevolution, dialogue, and
practices of courage, wisdom andcompassion. Olivier Urbain is
(02:01):
the director of the Min onResearch Institute and is a
published scholar onpeacebuilding. Kevin Maher is
the executive director for theIkeda Center, where he oversees
programs, publications and thestrategic plan of the center.
Anri Tanabe is the OutreachManager at the center where she
manages the education FellowsProgram, Market Center books and
(02:23):
contributes to programming,Inner transformation and Human
Revolution. These two pieces arereally important. You, you note
that Ikeda introduces a visionwhere each individual no matter
how small they may be, has thepower to enact and envision
peace. And you quote, Ikeda asstating, quote, a great inner
(02:44):
revolution in just a singleindividual will help achieve a
change in the destiny of anation and further will cause a
change in the destiny ofhumankind. So speak to the
nature of this inner revolution.
I hear the resonance from the,from the Buddhist philosophy,
(03:06):
but yeah, what is this innerrevolution in the lens of Ikeda?
Unknown (03:10):
Oh, thank you. That's this chapter five, right?
Chapter five in the book.
Absolutely. So I realized thatthe people I admire most who
have really changed the worldinside out, like, for example,
Gandhi, you take Gandhi, I'dlike to quote from Gandhi, "we
but mirror the world, all thetendencies present in the outer
(03:33):
world, are to be found in theworld of our body. If we could
change ourselves, the tendenciesin the world would also change."
And then Henry Gibson said,"people want only special
revolutions in externals, inpolitics, and so on. But that's
just tinkering. What really iscalled for is a revolution of
(03:55):
the human mind." So this idea ofchanging yourself, to be able to
change your community and tochange the world has been, you
know, can be found throughouthistory, throughout
civilizations all over theworld. It's not anything that is
special to any teaching or orphilosophy. But what Makiguchi
(04:16):
Toda and Ikeda established is agrassroots movement that is
based on this idea of innertransformation, and they give it
a special name, which is HumanRevolution. But Human Revolution
is one way to do innertransformation. So you have
(04:40):
inner transformation inChristianity, for example, when
Tolstoy wrote, you know, thekingdom of God is within you.
That for me, that's really like,yeah, exactly. Right. So you
have that in Judaism you havethat In Islam, you've that in
all religions in Hinduism. Andyou have also that in the UNESCO
(05:04):
declaration in the preamble isthat you know, since since wars
start in the mind of people, itis in the minds of people that
the fortresses or the beginningof peace has to be established,
right. So whether you havespirituality or not doesn't
(05:27):
matter. What I did in myresearch on Ikeda is try to
translate this idea of HumanRevolution in a specific way,
recommended by Makiguchi, Toda,Ikeda, in terms of everybody can
understand and very quickly,those three virtues appeared in
all the writings, not always bythree, sometimes it's just two
(05:51):
courage, wisdom, or courage,compassion or wisdom,
compassion, but sometimes allthree, and definitely, all three
are important. So it's aboutwisdom, and courage and
compassion.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (06:11):
What does it mean to bring up the best in
the other, Urbain spoke ofcourage, wisdom and compassion
as the activator, the spark ofhope and the opening to
relationship, the best inourselves is dependent on
bringing out the best in others.
Our dependence is aninterdependence, where we find
ourselves entangled in a web oflife, Urbain turned to talk of
(06:33):
Ikeda speech at ColumbiaUniversity, where Ikeda laid out
interconnectedness as thefoundational principle of global
citizenship. What do wisdom,courage and compassion look like
when they are upheld byinterconnection?
Unknown (06:51):
What kind of wisdom?
What is the most importantwisdom? To be able to embrace
the whole planet? Is the wisdomto perceive the
interconnectedness of all life.
exactly your question. So amongall the types of wisdom that we
(07:12):
have, Ikeda recommends, thewisdom to proceed that
absolutely everything isinterconnected - our lives with
all the lives of other people,like you know, today, I was able
to put some air conditioning isvery, very hot, I didn't build
the machine, I didn't bring theelectricity here, I didn't
create the air. Many, manypeople plus elements of the
(07:35):
planet made it possible for meto have fresh air in my room.
It's lots of people already. Andthen I had breakfast, who
brought me the food, whoprepared it, who built the plate
today, you know, if you thinkabout how many people
contributed to you, Kevin havingheadphones on your, you know,
(07:55):
and shirt, just that that'sinterconnectedness. And of
course, not just betweenhomosapiens but all living
creatures, all animals, allplants and rocks, and the sky
and the air. So everything isinterconnected. And when we make
decisions, when we think aboutwhat we want to do in life,
(08:17):
Ikeda recommends to activatethis wisdom, that everything is
interconnected.
Then, based on that the type ofcourage that he recommends is
the courage to embracedifference. To understand that
(08:38):
we are all unique, other peoplewill not think exactly like you
do, they will have differentskin color, different gender,
different sex, different sexualorientations, socio cultural,
economic background. But if youcan see the interconnectedness
of all living beings then yourpart of the web of life, and the
(08:59):
person in front of you isequally part of the web of life.
And you have lots of things totalk about together and build
together based on thatinterconnectedness. So
difference is great, differencehelps you to grow and to
activate your your criticalthinking. Because if somebody
doesn't agree with you, it'slike a professional, critical
(09:20):
thinker for free right in frontof you. And now you have to
respond something. So thecourage to embrace difference,
and finally, the compassion toimagine the suffering of other
people. And in the thisparagraph, Ikeda talks about
imagining the suffering ofpeople who are in even even in
faraway places, but we are allvery far away from each other.
(09:44):
For example, let's say I meetyou for the first time in a
coffee shop somewhere. I'venever met you before. I have a
certain impression of who youare. I have no idea where you
come from the stories you haveto tell what you went through
what you're thinking about. Ijust decide, okay, he looks like
this, maybe he's like that justan impression. I have no
(10:05):
compassion, for your strugglesfor your life for your joy for
your suffering. So even though Iwould sit next to you, you are
very, very far. So when Ikedasays the compassion to imagine
the sufferings, and of course,the joys, but the sufferings of
other people, he's talking aboutthat, he's talking about
imagining the incrediblepotential each person has. So
(10:28):
this package of wisdom, courageand compassion. It's really
interesting, because little bylittle, it became the center of
so many studies today, there isa whole field of study on Soka
education, for example, atDePaul University in Chicago, or
Guelph??, or Laval, in Canada,in Spain, also in all over the
(10:54):
world, those are appearing, butthey're also centres of studies
for global citizenship, and alsofor Ikeda peace studies. And
what I noticed now because I'mlike, you know, kind of going
around all of them. Basically,they all go back to that one
paragraph of wisdom, courage andcompassion. Because even today,
(11:19):
when you think in terms ofglobal governance, international
relations, political science,it's very, very rare to start
with human virtues. It's aboutall kinds of things economics
and finance and mutualunderstanding and negotiations.
(11:43):
But very rarely do you includeyour own courage, wisdom and
compassion in the package. Sofor Ikeda to declare in 96 that
global citizenship meansbasically those three virtues is
still revolutionary. Today,
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (11:59):
we turn to a recording titled "we are
the future," the performer Danjaproduced this recording Lyrics
by Danja, Belle Aires and Catonyvocals by Danja, Belle Aires and
the End Time Harvest ChildrenChoir Maiduguri, this recording
is provided with generouspermission by Min-on and Danja.
(12:34):
[music][music] So dialogue, you know I
(12:55):
understand that we're on thiscontinuous journey to find
connection points with others.
Yes, and my favorite quote herewas, was where he says,
"engaging in dialogue is astruggle to positively transform
our own life as well as that ofothers. It is the act of
(13:15):
breaking out of the shell of ourlesser self surmounting
surmounting the wall of ourcallous ego and creating and
expanding positive connectionswith others." So talk about this
vision of dialogue, that, and itmoves well beyond simple
conversation, to moments wherehearts might be opened. And the
(13:38):
sense of letting the dialogue doits work to change us.
Unknown (13:43):
So dialogue is like the essential ingredient to move
from inner peace to actual,concrete peace outside. And I
was wondering, why is it thatIkeda has so many dialogues he's
had literally 1000s and 1000s ofdialogues with people of all
(14:06):
walks of life. And if I, if Ilook at, for example, the list
of published dialogues, thosethat were actually, you know,
not only you discuss together,but then after that you write to
each other and you edit it andyou you make the effort to
publish a book. That's there'salmost 80 of them today. So I
(14:29):
was wondering what What is hetrying to accomplish? Because
after the dialogue is done,those people do not join
anything. They do not becomemembers of anything, they just
continue their lives. You know,so I decided to read the
dialogues that were available atthe time and I started I read
(14:51):
about 12 When I could now seeclearly the pattern. And to make
a long tale short. I summarizeThe intention underneath every
dialogue as a decision to bringout, to bring out the best in
yourself and in others. So, forinstance, here we have, we are
(15:15):
having a dialogue. And maybe myintention is to sound really
great for the public to becomefamous or to make you happy. Or
I might have all kinds ofintentions, but what if my
intention is simply to bring outthe best in myself, really try
my best to bring out what's bestin me. And of course, bring out
(15:38):
what's best in you. And thenimagine that you're doing the
same in reverse. So now we canreally, really talk about
anything we want freely based onthat intention. And then what is
it that's best, that's best inme and best in you? Well,
everything we've talked about sofar, your courage, your wisdom,
your compassion. So basically,it's about bringing out my own
(16:03):
courage, wisdom and compassion,through the process of dialogue
here and now and bringing thosequalities within you, and then
letting you do that to me, atthe same time, in real time,
here and now.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (16:18):
Ikeda writes that if one single drop
of the water of dialogue isallowed to fall on the wasteland
of intolerance. Quote, "therewill be a possibility for trust
and friendship to spring up." InSeptember of 1993, Daisaku,
Ikeda delivered a speech atHarvard University that laid the
(16:39):
foundations for the Ikeda centerfor peace, learning and dialogue
in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Iasked the center's director
Kevin Maher, about how thecenter lives out practices of
dialogue within its mission.
Kevin Maher (16:54):
Inspired by that lecture, and by other messages
he sent to the center, we've,our mission has been to bring
like minded students, scholars,young professionals,
peacebuilders, into dialogue onglobal issues, and discuss, you
(17:16):
know, approaches andperspectives in terms of how we
can really foster a culture ofpeace for us as a center. Rather
than having a stance that we weknow everything and we're here
to teach we're learning we'rereally I mean, we there's an
intention behind having peacelearning and dialogue in the
name is that we're learningthrough those those
(17:38):
conversations
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (17:40):
Urbain notes that dialogue may be used
to bring out the best in theself and other, letting quote,
"people's common humanity shinedespite, or rather through
differences and backgrounds,lifestyles and worldviews."
Urbain later writes, I believethat for Ikeda also, dialogue is
a way to reach our commonhumanity through the logos,
(18:03):
putting human reason at theservice of a more humane world,
a way to ensure that the I paysfull attention to and brings out
the best in the "you." I askedAnri Tanabe of the Ikeda center
to expand on understandings ofhow bringing out the best in the
other is practiced in dialogueat the Ikeda center.
(18:26):
So that, that, that piece ofbringing out the best in the
other that's come out a lot inmy talks with Olivier and I was
curious, how do you see thatrealized within your practice of
dialogue about this bringing outthe best in the other?
Unknown (18:42):
Yeah, I think what I see at the dialogue night's
event is I think it's a spacewhere people can really self
reflect. And I think often indialogue, we come in thinking,
oh, I want someone to listen tome, you know, maybe that's kind
of the intention that peopleenter a dialogue with, that, you
(19:04):
know, this person is wrong. AndI have to convince them that my
opinion is right. But bringingout the best in oneself and
others, I think, giving thespace to really think about what
the purpose of the dialogue is.
And maybe the end goal is notreally to convince anybody but
to understand one anotherbetter. And I think the more
that we can really understandourselves and other people, we
(19:25):
give space for a solution tocome out through like a shared
understanding. And so it's notabout convincing someone that
I'm right and they're wrong, butreally coming to a better
understanding of the otherperson but also of ourselves.
We have a list of coreconvictions that that guide our
(19:48):
work, all of it, essentiallybeing informed by Mr. Ikeda's
approach and one of the coreconvictions is that it's
critical to maintain faith andpeople's potential for good.
Recognizing that potentialthrough dialogue and our
interactions with us, not onlyis Anri sharing, I feel, impacts
(20:11):
the intention and tone of thedialogue itself, but it enriches
our lives in the process. And Ithink that connects with that
the larger idea of theinterdependence of all life,
that when we.. it's not just arecognition that we're
connected, but it is throughthose connections, it is through
mutual support and encouragementthat we grow as individuals, in
(20:35):
addition to the person in frontof us. And having that kind of
stance, that kind of approach,really impacts the way that we
interact with each individual.
And for us, I think peace, peacebuilding, means and this is
inspired by Elise Boulding'swork too peacebuilding starts
with the person right in frontof you. It's not, it's not
solely some grand endeavor thatis focused on the entire an
(21:00):
entire nation or country, but,or world, but it's really starts
with the person right in frontof us. And if we can't have that
respect, or belief in thatpotential in the person right in
front of us, then it's, it'salmost impossible to have that
same faith in the potential ofall of humankind.
(21:23):
If you really practice thisintention of bringing out the
best in yourself and othersthrough dialogue, you do that
every day 24/7 For years, then Ithink you can come to that kind
of very risky. Proposition. Youknow, actually, when there is a
(21:49):
video that's available to thepublic, where he he meets
Gorbachev, and they're going tosit down for the dialogue. And
he meets Gorbachev, and he says,Oh, you, I really don't agree
with so many things you do, andyou say, so let's have a good
fight. But the way he said it,they both burst out in laughter,
right? Because the if theintention is what we've been
(22:11):
talking about, so it's really astruggle, I can't do it 24/7
Many times I have dialogues toobtain things or to convince
people or to get out ofsituations or, but I always try
to remind myself, wait, wait, wewait, this is a unique
opportunity, maybe I will neverbe able to speak to that person
again. What about bringing outthe best in myself and the other
(22:33):
person as a basis? And do therest of the conversation around
that? Yeah.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (22:44):
I think I would reflect back to you after
reading the book that as I wasreading about his move to
document his dialogue, Ithought, here's somebody who's
doing it well ahead of the curvein that almost considering
dialogue to be the form ofscholarship, you know, that you
encounter these people and youdo the work of publication. And
(23:08):
I was hearing the resonance inmy own decision to to take this
direction where I was going intopodcasting and say, I'm going to
put as much effort intopodcasting as I do into writing
a book chapter and consider itto be a new form of scholarship.
And I would resonate with thedegree to which being in this
(23:29):
kind of space changes me..
dialogue. So I just I wanted toreally honor that that I really,
yeah, I'm really in awe of thatmove that he made.
Olivier Urbain (23:38):
Yeah, absolutely. In a way each book
is a is a written podcast.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (23:42):
Yeah, it is. Exactly. He was well ahead
of the curve. He predictedpodcasting. Exactly what he did.
Absolutely.
So I was also curious, becausecourage, wisdom and compassion
comes up so much. And I wascurious about how how do you
(24:07):
communicate these values ofcourage, wisdom, compassion, and
how do you see courage, wisdom,compassion lived out within
dialogue?
Unknown (24:15):
That's a wonderful question. I'm smiling because we
have a seminar series welaunched last year called the
global citizen seminar series,and the first and this is a
series, a seminar that engagesdoctoral students with senior
scholars and in conversationover a sustained seminar. So the
(24:40):
same group meeting severaltimes. In the first year, we had
a deep conversation on thosethree elements of wisdom,
courage and compassion. Andthere are questions of can those
characteristics be taught? Howcan they be fostered? And I
think what and Anri pleasecorrect me if I'm misremembering
(25:00):
but a lot of it came down toit's something that we have to
model in practice ourselves, andthat it comes through, it really
comes through and dialogue inthat way. And that these are not
sort of abstract ideas, but howdo we, in our own lives grapple
with? How do we become morecompassionate? How do we use our
wisdom to help others and, youknow, and courage being sort of
(25:24):
the, the linchpin between allthree is that without courage,
you know, we won't, we won't,even if we have wisdom, we won't
be able to take the action thatwe need to. You know Mr. Ikeda
writes about this or talks aboutthis. And you know, without,
without courage, it's, it's, itcan become almost impossible to
(25:46):
act for on behalf of others. Soreally grappling ourselves with
what does it mean to continue todeepen those, those values in
our own life, and then model itthrough our behavior and our
engagement with others. And weall agree that it's, it's an
ongoing process, it's not likewe get to a place where we've
(26:07):
sort of maxed out our, even ourcompassion, we never get to a
point where it's like, okay, I'mas compassionate as I can
possibly be. Always, there'salways gonna always go deeper
there. And every day, it's sortof recognizing it's about it's
a, it's a path, not, you know,not an endpoint. But it's a way
of being. And I feel dialogue isthe same, we can continue to be
(26:31):
more dialogic, both withourselves and with others, and
that we learn that through thatconnection with others. And I
think, again, those those threeelements of wisdom, courage and
compassion, that withoutengagement with others, they
they're entirely theoretical.
You know, it's really about howwe interact with other human
beings, that we see them aliveand thrive.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (26:57):
So Anri, as you do these dialogues, what
are what do you find now to bethe pressing concerns that are
being brought up by the youth indialogue now?
Unknown (27:06):
I think, maybe not the most pressing concern, because I
think at any given time, youknow, we all have our unique
worries or, you know, concernson what's what's happening right
in front of us. But I think,this need for connection and
being able to bring that out,and just being able to share
(27:26):
have spaces where we're able toshare what we're feeling or
going through. And I think justmaybe having like, a purpose and
like sense of belonging, I thinkthat comes up often. Because
when we don't have that, I thinkit becomes so easy to isolate
ourselves and just focus onwhat's, you know, what's what's
(27:47):
right in front of us withoutreally thinking about, like, the
interconnectedness and what'shappening in the world, and how
does, what I do affect what'shappening across the country,
you know, in a war torn area, orthere's this disconnect of like,
what I do doesn't matter. Andbeing able to really converse
with others, dialogue withothers, and really understand
(28:10):
that what we do in our dailylife actually does have an
impact on the world. And I thinkwith that, you know, people feel
more inspired to be able to takeaction, but I think so just
like, being able to talk aboutthese issues that feel so big.
And being able to have thissense of what I do will actually
matter.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (28:30):
Yeah, I would echo that I've, I've
really sensed that wordbelonging is it's everywhere
now. And but and yet, it's sucha complex word. Try I think, I
think that maybe my focus nextyear is really digging into the
social psychology aboutbelonging. And, you know, what,
what are the different colors ofthat word? As it changes for
(28:51):
people?
Anri Tanabe (28:52):
Yeah, we actually right? Was it 2019? Kevin, maybe
early 2019. We had an event onloneliness, we call that the
loneliness epidemic. And thatwas actually our highest
attended event, I think, like anumber maybe, like,
Kevin Maher (29:11):
close to 90,
Unknown (29:12):
Yeah, it was really big. And, you know, there were
many people who actually hadnever heard about the Ikeda
center before. A lot of times,you know, the people who come
either have been here before orhave friends. But for that
event, specifically, people hadseen you know, this topic or
even Googled like events onloneliness. And they came really
(29:35):
seeking this connection andwanting to figure out how to how
to grapple with it, how to dealwith it, how to move forward
from it, and I think with the2020 I think even more so you
know, now it's people are reallytrying to figure out you know,
what they can do and how theycan feel that So, the the sense
(29:58):
of belonging
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (30:02):
In his 2022 book on belonging, Jeffrey
Cohen notes belonging is less akeystone belief and more like a
perception that is being createdanew in every situation. He
later notes quote, "the keyquestion is not what is our
nature, but what are theelements of situations that draw
out the better angels of ournature" In bringing out the
(30:26):
better parts within ourselvesand others. Music may help us
craft situations that connect,repair and deepen our well
being. Urbain speaks of ourpotential to use music to
connect, build belonging, andpeace.
Unknown (30:42):
Overall, the book has a very optimistic view of what
music can do using the nowforbidden phrase, the power of
music, if you want, you know,any music scholar,
ethnomusicologist to run awayfrom you just use that phrase,
it's forbidden now. Okay. So Igot pretty sophisticated
(31:05):
criticism from fantasticscholars who, you know, very
kindly wrote in their article ortheir book, there is this guy,
he believes in the potential,whatever the positive power of
music, how naive and this andthat, okay. And I took that as a
form of dialogue, they're tryingto bring the best out of me. So
(31:29):
through that process, Iestablished some kind of rules
for myself if you want rulenumber one, the ambivalence of
music. It's completelyambivalent. I mean, I go do I go
the other extreme, I say thatmusic has absolutely no value
for peace by itself, you can usea piece of music to torture
(31:50):
people, you can even set trapsto distract them and kill them
with music. You can do whateveryou want, because music for good
or for evil its completelyambivalent. Now, the bad news is
that for peacebuilders is notenough to just use music, for
peacebuilding, it couldbackfire, like terribly. The
good news is that, since it's sopowerful, to do bad things, and
(32:16):
do good things, then if youchoose to do good things, you
have a chance of creatingsomething good, that's the good
news, but it is totallyambivalent. The second thing is
that the beauty of the melodiesand the chords and the rhythm is
all wonderful, but that's notconducive to peacebuilding at
(32:37):
all, what is are people, itspeople and how people treat each
other that will you know, movethings towards more peace or or
towards less peace and moreviolence. But what music does is
that it touches you Itinfluences you, it changes your
(32:57):
mood, it changes your yourrelationship with your
environment, and then if you canplay music together or sing
together or listen to musictogether, it creates a deep
connection with another humanbeing it can do that with entire
groups also and the people whoare affected and changed by this
musical activity. Are now if youwant in a better position to
(33:22):
decide to talk to do things forpeacebuilding.
So the question about music and,and peace. So the second
important thing is that music isa form of action, it accompanies
(33:45):
human action. So there is thisphenomenal book called
musicking. You know, a verbmusicking by Christopher
Christopher Small 1998. Thewhole book is about that is
about the fact that it's notonly about the sounds and the
beauty of the melodies andeverything. But it's really
about what we do with music, howwe treat each other with music.
(34:10):
So there's the musicking part.
And then there's other veryimportant elements, but I would
say a third one is the fact thatit's not universal. Music is not
universal. Music can be foundall over the planets. So in that
way it is universallydistributed. But to have the
illusion that the music I likeeverybody will like it. Oh, this
(34:36):
this piece of music. I'm sureeverybody in the world will like
it because I feel it's sobeautiful. That is impossible.
You can find 1000s of people whowill hate that music for all
kinds of reasons. So based onall our sound and musical
experiences, even starting inthe womb, we can hear you know
the heartbeat of our motheralready as soon as we have for
(34:58):
around four or five months, youknow the embryo can hear it. So
all our musical experiences goodand bad, create in us our music,
personal musical culture. Andall the songs old or new songs
that can be included in thatmusical world we would
(35:21):
experience as pleasant andinteresting and happy. And those
that contradicted or arecompletely unfamiliar and that
we don't feel like learning ormusic that we are forced to hear
under torture, for example, arein terrible conditions, we will
hate that music, whereas otherswill like it. So if we put those
three together, I think we havea good start, like, how would
(35:44):
you like to start thinking aboutmusic and peace? Okay, start
like this. Number one, music iscompletely ambivalent. It's not
for peace. You make it for peaceif you want, but it's not for
peace. Number two, it's allabout action. Music by itself is
completely useless. But when itaccompanies action, it can
(36:05):
change everything. And numberthree, music is not universal.
Be very careful who is right infront of you that you want to
play music with, or the groupright in front of you ask them
about their musical tastes andexperiences and build it from
there. So that's, that's thetheory I gained if you want
after years and years of those,if you want academic dialogues.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (36:30):
Urbain speaks of the work of Min-on to
develop human music technologiesthat overcome barriers to
belonging within aninterconnected world.
Unknown (36:38):
And after years of research, I decided to focus on
human relationships, that a lotof the peacebuilding work we
need to do, whether it's aboutclimate change, or about, you
(36:58):
know, racial injustice or sexualinjustice or gender or sex
orientation, socio economic,age, nationality, ethnicity,
political choice, the.. are youhuman or not, if you're not
human, you're an animal, you'rea plant, I can treat you like I
can do whatever I like. That'salso a form of discrimination.
So all those separations, I wantto focus on that I want to
(37:22):
develop the greatest musicaltechnology to overcome those
artificial barriers, to create afeeling of connection and of
belonging, between everythingand everything because of the
interconnectedness of all lifeand living. So that's what we
(37:44):
do. We organize conferences, wepublish articles. We now produce
videos. We have started, a radioprogram is going to start in
Japanese next month, followed bywebinars in English. Probably
next year. And above all, we'vebeen working for two - three
(38:06):
years now. On a an online hub.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (38:10):
This online hub seeks to connect
musical peacebuilders around theworld Urbain spoke of an
inclusive vision for music, andthe journey of the Min on
concert association to bring theLa Scala opera to Japan.
Unknown (38:25):
One of the great achievements of Min-on is to
have brought La Scala of Milan,the whole Scala like 500 people
personnel, with trucks ofcostumes, to tour all over
Japan. And the director of thela Scala at the time, made a
famous declaration in anewspaper and he said Min-on was
able to bring the entire laScala, except for the building.
(38:49):
Wow. So yes, it started withwith Western classical music you
can imagine in 1963 in Japan, ifyou want to do something for
world peace, understanding andbeing friends with with the West
was definitely a major stepforward. But very quickly,
because the the idea behindMin-on that was proposed by
(39:12):
Ikeda is how can we reallyensure that people can learn
about each other can connectwith each other? Through music
and the arts? Let's establish aconcert association. So that's
the basic intention. So veryquickly, you realize that
interconnectedness of all thingsand people it's not just Western
(39:33):
classical music, of course. Sothen Min-on started to invite
the Beijing opera, for example,or drumming, drumming troops
from from Africa, traditionalmusic from Korea from all over
the world from so it's this ifyou want a early decolonial
(39:54):
thinking that this idea thatthere is a an evolution of
music. That we started withsomething very simple to come to
the very, very sophisticated,multi tonal western music. I
personally am totally againstthat kind of idea. I think music
is in is in the here and now andthat all types of music have
(40:16):
something to offer. And I mean,if you want to compete with the
intricacies of African drumming,or Latin American drumming, and
compare that to westernclassical drumming, you know,
good luck. Right?
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (40:31):
Yeah, that whole road of comparison is
not helpful.
Unknown (40:34):
No, it's not. It's not it's, you know, how we connect
with each other through music inthe moment.
Olivier Urbain (40:50):
So interconnectedness of all human
beings and all living beingsdoesn't really have a center.
You have to be very carefulabout that. It's not a certain
superior skin color type ofpeople who decide how to
interconnect the world. Thecenters are everywhere.
(41:14):
Everybody is the center of theentire interconnectedness of the
world. Which means your history,your village, your town, your
music, your background, is themost important thing that we
need to preserve and honor. Sothat's why we have we have
videos now about all types ofmusic by all types of people.
(41:37):
But of course, from the angle ofhow could this be contributing
to a better world more peaceful,more harmonious, more
respectful, more, more, yeah,more in in harmony with nature
and the biosphere? Maybe that'sthe only thing that we
consciously push forward is thisidea of music and peacebuilding.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (42:03):
In the introduction to the book, hope
and joy in education, engagingDaisaku Ikeda across curriculum
and context, Jason Goulah writesabout hope, joy,
interdependence, and continualprocesses of being and becoming,
he writes, human education,quote, "calls on us to encourage
(42:24):
the individual right in front ofus to believe in everyone's
unique and unlimited potential,to never give up on anyone no
matter what. But it is alsoequally, an approach that
demands that we awaken to thefull scope, and possibility of
our own humanity, andhumaneness." An awakening to the
(42:47):
fullness of interdependence isone that collapses dualisms,
quote, "and views humanities asinherently interdependent with
all phenomena." As he quotesIkeda, Goulah notes that this
perspective taking requires amovement from the egoistic less
herself to the infinite orgreater self, inspired by
(43:11):
Goulah's writing, and Olivier'slanguage of interconnectedness.
I asked about imaginations ofconnectedness with Kevin and
Anri of the Ikeda Center,
Unknown (43:23):
our focus is really on, on cultivating rather than
saying this is this is aspecific approach, or this is a
path to how you engage indialogue, really cultivating an
ethos and a greater ethos or, orphilosophy of, how do we live
with a vision towards how deeplyconnected we all are, and how
(43:45):
the, you know, Mr. Ikeda oftentalks about how the happiness of
others is deeply connected toour our own happiness, but the
suffering of others is as well.
So we really live with that sortof ethos in mind. It's
transformational, both ourselvesand others. And so I love that
that approach that you'retalking about, and that idea of
imagination, I mean, again, Iinvoked her name earlier, but
(44:08):
Elise Boulding. And I often talkabout if we want to, you know,
we live in a culture of war, ifwe want to envision we want to
have a culture of peace, we needto envision what that would look
like. It can't be just sort ofan abstract idea. And so
starting with that vision, andthen working backwards, what are
the steps needed to take to gettowards that? I think the idea
of imagination is so key.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (44:31):
One thing I would reflect to is that as
I've been sitting with theIkeda, one of the things that's
really come to the forefront forme that I think I've experienced
before is that this this powerof interconnectedness, I mean,
in many ways, it's a it's afaculty of the imagination or
maybe it starts that way thatyou have to understand you know,
the, where does this shirt comefrom the all the things that
(44:54):
surround me in my life and howit.. how my life is so
intertwined with others and ourcapacity to imagine into the
interconnectedness, maybe is acapacity to connect.
Unknown (45:07):
Wow. And that, like helps us understand our
connection to the environmenttoo, right. You know, like, with
the climate activists, you know,talking about how if we can
understand, like, like you said,where your shirt comes from and
who's involved in, you know,creating the food, or growing
the food from the land andgetting it to our table, and
(45:31):
really not being able to treatthe earth poorly, if we
understand that, this is thefood that nourishes our body,
and this is what we give to theEarth is what comes back to us,
you know, in that cyclicalconnection. And I feel like,
when we separate that, itbecomes so easy to think that
(45:52):
we'll have resources forever, orwhat I do doesn't impact anybody
else.
Yet, in his Harvard in the 93,Harvard lecture, he talks about
so interdependence is that isthe sort of the third key
approach to peace building forhim. And he says that in that
talk, he says that nothing andno one exists in isolation. And
(46:15):
all things are mutuallysupporting an interrelated,
forming a living Cosmos, andsort of that grander vision of
what interdependence might mean,Jason Goulah was a scholar,
advisor to the center, but ascholar on Ikeda's work, he
often talks about Ikeda's ideaof Kyosei, the Japanese, the
Japanese term forinterdependence, one of the ways
(46:36):
that it's translated, which Ithink you might appreciate, is
creative coexistence. So it'snot just that we're our lives,
that we're just connected in away that, you know, homes that
are very close together,connected, but that we, this
idea that, that we coexist, weco-arise through creativity
(46:57):
through engagement with eachother and how it's a living,
breathing, ongoing process of,of living together. I love that
image of it, rather than justcoincidental just the
connection, but rather it'smutually supporting and
thriving.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (47:17):
That's so cool yeah, I'm always fascinated
by the ways in which languageilluminates deeper
understandings of concepts thatare sometimes shallow in other
languages. So yeah, it seemsbeautiful.
In from the ashes, Ikeda writes"I believe that dialogue holds
the key to any lasting solution.
Now, more than ever, we mustreach out in a further effort to
(47:38):
understand each other and engagein genuine dialogue. Words
spoken from the heart, have thepower to change a person's life.
They can even melt the ice wallsof mistrust that separate
peoples and nations. We mustexpand our efforts to promote
dialogue between and amongcivilizations."
(48:05):
A poem I wrote, inspired by thelanguage of Ikeda and others in
this podcast, may we bring outthe best in ourselves by
bringing out the best in others,melting ice walls, where rain
falls upon wastelands ofintolerance, germinating seeds
(48:26):
of trust, empathy, courage,wisdom, compassion, building
imaginations of interconnection,that hold nothing more, but the
impossibility of our separation.
Friends, this brings to a closeseason three of the music and
(48:48):
peacebuilding podcast, one thathas journeyed through language
of belonging, agency,entrainment, embodiment,
hospitality, compassion and ourcare for place. I have been
forever changed by the voicesacross this season, and have
felt your listening presence onthis journey. If you value this
(49:12):
music and peacebuilding podcast,please leave a review such that
others can find this space. In afew months, we will be back to
launch a new journey ofdiscovery.
Olivier Urbain's books "DaisakuIkeda's philosophy of peace" and
"music and conflicttransformation" are published by
IB Taurus press an imprint ofBloomsbury publishing. The
(49:36):
website of the Min on concertAssociation and the Min on
Research Institute can be foundat WWW dot men hyphen en.org.
Special thanks to Min on forpermissions to use recordings
across these podcasts. The Ikedacenter for peace learning and
dialogue can be found at WWW dotIkeda center.org The book cited
(50:02):
in this podcast hope and joy andeducation engaging Daisaku Ikeda
across curriculum and context isedited by Isabel Nunez and Jason
Goulah and available from theIkeda Center. I recommend
exploring their books andpublications as well as their
podcast titled The dialoguestudio.
(50:23):
This is the music andpeacebuilding podcast hosted by
Kevin Shorner-Johnson. AtElizabeth town College, we host
a master of music education withan emphasis in peacebuilding.
thinking deeply we reclaim spacefor connection and care. Join us
at music peace building.com
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