November 5, 2022 • 33 mins
This first episode of a two-part series with Kiku Day explores shakuhachi history and how the shakuhachi is taught and learned. Central to shakuhachi are traditions of flow and the use of silence or absence through the language of ma. Recordings from Wild Ways are generously provided by the composer, performer, and record label. 15ZWATlBgcYPn7lBZWgq
The Music & Peacebuilding Podcast is hosted by Kevin Shorner-Johnson at Elizabethtown College. Join our professional development network at www.musicpeacebuilding.com - thinking deeply we reclaim space for connection and care.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kiku Day (00:00):
Playing shakuhachi I found that the flow the special
(00:05):
flow that each piece has wassomething that was quite
difficult to understand tointernalize and to embody. So if
I played a piece, and I playedthe next piece, it somehow very
often sounded like the previouspiece. Couldn't kind of had to
kind of really like imagine thenew piece and then play it. And
(00:30):
then I could successfully changethe flow in some ways.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (00:35):
You are listening to season three of the
music and peacebuilding podcast,a professional development
network at musicpeacebuilding.com Exploring
intersections of peacebuilding,sacredness, community,
creativity and imaginationthrough research and story. Kiku
day is a shakuhachi player inethnomusicologist. She is a
(00:57):
founding member of the Europeanshakuhachi society, for which
she served as a chairperson from2009 to 2019. Together with
Michael Soumei Coxall, sheinitiated the European
shakuhachi summer school andFestival in 2006 and was the
chair of the world shakuhachiFestival in 2018. Kiku Day
(01:20):
studied shakuhachi with OkudaAtsuya, one of the foremost
performers of jinashishakuhachi. She studied
performance at Mills College,and earned a PhD in
ethnomusicology at SOAS,University of London, where she
completed research on jinashishakuhachi construction, and
collaborated with five composersto create new shakuhachi
(01:44):
repertoire. Several composershave composed works for her
including Roxanna panufnik,Takahashi Yuji, Frank Denyer,
Marisol Jimenez, Marty Regan,and Vytautas Germanavičius. Kiku
Day lives at the meditationcenter Vækstcenteret in the
(02:04):
western part of Denmark. Sheteaches Zensabo style Honkyoku,
improvisation and new music andNørre Snede in Copenhagen,
Denmark, Hamburg, Germany, andLondon, UK.
So my I think my openingquestion is about you as a
bridge builder. If I see a themeacross your work, it's that that
(02:27):
you cross thresholds. And Ithink the book chapter on Tamuke
is also an example of that. Thatcross cultural translation, and
you're helping us to see theways in which things get
reframed as they move acrosscultures through shakuhachi. But
also named some other areaswhere you you straddle
(02:47):
thresholds between your Americanand Japanese identities, you
straddle thresholds between yourresidence in Denmark, you
straddle thresholds of being apractitioner and being an
ethnomusicologist, or anacademic. And also, my sense is
that from the place where youlive, which is a center for
meditation, there's that thatthreshold between the outside
(03:09):
and the inside. So if you wereto narrate a biography of
threshold crossing and how thatinfluences your work, how would
Kiku Day (03:18):
Oh, that's a difficult one, actually. Because I think
you start that?
it's just a condition for me tobe at these kinds of thresholds.
You know, you already mentionedmy fundamental threshold in
(03:38):
national cultural identities. Iactually grew up in Denmark. So
the Danish identity is thestrongest, although the Japanese
and American comes into play aswell. So in a way, I think, this
kind of crossing thresholds iskind of part of my life. And
(03:58):
then it seems like a place whereI can play a role as well, maybe
I'm thrown into it, and I can'tescape it anyway. So I might as
well make the most of it in someways.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (04:14):
Yes, most will claim that space.
Kiku Day (04:17):
Yes, but it did take quite some battle. to kind of
get to that point.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (04:24):
Kiku days heritage of threshold crossings,
accompanies a history ofshakuhachi crossings. The
shakuhachi moved from Korean toJapanese cultures in the eighth
century, and carries a story ofpassages between sacred and
secular. The shakuhachi alsocrosses thresholds of a solo
(04:44):
instrument and one that has aheritage within the Gagaku
ensemble. This instrument becamean important activity among a
group of wandering Buddhistmonks, who formed under the
identity of Komuso monks withinthe Fuke sect. Coming from more
than 77 Komuso temples, thisloose organization of monks were
(05:06):
granted special privileges assamurai to cross community
thresholds in seeking arms whileplaying under the protective
cover of woven baskets.
Kiku Day (05:19):
Suddenly, the shakuhachi was played by these
Komuso monks, Komuso means monksof nothingness. And they had
these Komuso temples scatteredaround the whole of Japan. They
had special privileges ofplaying the shakuhachi, for
example, they had monopoly onthat. And they supposedly play
(05:45):
shakuhachi as their Buddhistpractice. It was a strange sect,
because there are no layperson.
in that sect, it was all monksand the monks had to be from
samurai caste or level ofsociety, you couldn't be a
peasant who wants to wanted tobe a monk, for example. So they
(06:07):
wandered around Japan, and theyhad this privilege that they
also could cross into whereverthey wanted to go. You couldn't
stop a Komuso monk. So theyplayed for alms. And it's that
repertoire that we callhonkyoku. So, hon can be
(06:28):
translated as original or baseor, you know, the fundamental
pieces. And I think we todayknow about 250 pieces. Not at
all that many are known verywell today. But that's the
(06:49):
heritage from the Edo periodtill now the honkyoku pieces
that these monks played.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (07:04):
I'm just curious about something and
maybe totally off. But one ofthe things that we talk about in
peacebuilding a lot is thatafter there's been a period of
violence, one of the biggeststruggles is reintegrating
combatants into society, suchthat they can reintegrate, and
I'm always curious about was theshakuhachi a tool for a warrior
(07:26):
class to be reintegrated duringa time of peace? Or is that an
erroneous guess? Or conclusion?
Kiku Day (07:33):
It's I've never seen it described like that. But most
of the time, when you look at,like also Japanese documents,
talking about the role of theFuke sect as such of the Komuso
monks, it says that, since itwas a peaceful time, and a lot
(07:57):
of these samurais did actuallybecome unemployed in the sense
that they're, you know, theirLords didn't need them anymore.
And since the Japanese societywas very hierarchical, they
couldn't just become a merchantor that would be a very terrible
(08:20):
downgrade in frank, in some waysin at that time. But becoming a
monk was something that wasregarded not so bad, that was an
acceptable transition to anotherrole. Yeah, so yes, you could
say that the Komuso or the Fukesect or Komuso monks did have
(08:42):
that role. They took in and, andgave, samurais, who otherwise
didn't have any, anything to doa purpose in life, but that also
gave a lot of trouble. And we dohave historical documents of the
(09:02):
two main Komuso temples, ??? andthe other one slips my mind, but
the two main ones, they made adecree that Komuso monks
shouldn't drink or shouldn't getinto fights or these kinds of
things. So for sure, though,there was a lot of trouble with
(09:25):
those people. And the Japanese,the older generation as well
have a quite a negative image ofKomuso monks. Yeah, it's so it's
not so romantic as as many mightwant to think. It's certainly
(09:45):
very complex, I would say.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (09:55):
Okay, so if we turn the conversation to
how the shakuhachi is taught,learned and lived. I wanted to,
to move into your recent articlein which you were talking about
your shakuhachi teacher. And yousaid that Okuda, if I'm saying
that right, often said, playyour shakuhachi, so that one
sound contains the wholeuniverse and that playing
(10:17):
shakuhachi is the union ofopposites. So could you paint a
picture of what it was like tostudy with Okuda and how one
sounds the universe and bringstogether opposites through
shakuhachi study and playing?
Kiku Day (10:32):
Yes, it was really a cultural surprise or new thing
for me to study with Okuda.
Since I grew up in Denmark, I,you know, I went to Japan to
study shakuhachi. And I made thedecision to make the shakuhachi
come to me. So I actually waiteduntil the shakuhachi came to me.
(10:53):
And then I was introduced toOkuda. Today, I'm really happy
that that was how it happened.
And so what is very often talkedabout when shakuhachi scholars,
several of us, write about theteaching method, is this tacit
(11:18):
knowledge that is handed over, Iwould say, Okuda actually
started with teaching me quite adifficult piece. I can't imagine
starting students off with thatpiece. But so we stayed with
this piece for more than a year.
And slowly, slowly, I was kindof able to, but I was a
(11:39):
flautist. So I wasn't theslowest, I could blow I knew how
to use my breathing and how tomove my fingers and things like
that. So, but still, I mean, Iremember friends, you know,
saying are you still onlyplaying on that, that one piece?
What piece was that? That wasactually Tamuke. Okay. So a lot
(12:02):
of people, teachers today willteach little children's melodies
or folk music pieces that areeasier, these kinds of things.
But Okuda went straight in andtaught honkyoku.
(12:27):
So these pieces from the Komusomonks, and that was also what I
was interested in. So I wasreally grateful for that.
Because if I had gone to one ofthe teachers who would take me
through a lot of otherrepertoire, first, I think I
would have lost my patience, andgone back to playing the flute.
(12:48):
But I kind of kept with it. Andthe way he taught was, of
course, in the beginning, hewill teach me, you know, phrase
by phrase, he will show, I willimitate, and we will go through
the piece. And from then on, wejust played it together. And I
(13:11):
could of course, stop him. Butit was kind of implicit that you
didn't. So if there were placesthat I wanted to make sure I
heard I could hear him play, I,you know, I try really to play
softly and hear how he wouldplay and just follow. But a lot
(13:34):
of the time for me, I just triedto follow up, sometimes it was
actually really hard. He didn'tslow down anything like that.
And if I got lost, he would justplay on and then I had to find
the place to, a place of hidden.
So that piece like Tamuke, whichwas first time, I will estimate
(13:55):
that I have played with him 100times together. And this was
actually a very, veryinteresting way. I mean, it's a
lot of time, written anddescribe that you you know, the
(14:17):
teacher often is very silent. Soyou silently pass over and it's
the student's responsibility to"steal the art" as the Japanese
have a concept of "stealing theart." And so the art is openly
there, you know, he'll play withyou, you can see the fingers you
(14:38):
can see how we blow through andcan hear how it sounds live. And
then it's up to you to learnfrom it. And it's very
interesting how a piece opens upin the beginning you just
concentrated on on moving yourfingers then you can also add in
the beginning at least when youare a more experienced player
(15:00):
that comes at the same time butthen you add changing the head
positions and then all theaesthetical you know the
ornamentation on all this that'snot written in the score. And
that comes along afterward.
Slowly, slowly, you're able totake another level in.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (15:24):
Drawing upon scholarship from Victor
Fung. I note that manyConfucian, Daoist and dharma
traditions center flow and thesoftness of water as a model of
ethics and beauty flow offersgentle patient persistent
change, and a model of kindnessthat is as natural as the flow
(15:46):
of water. Flow is an action ofmotion and a non action of
stillness. Bonnie Wade's text onJapanese music describes Koto
music as a kind of "flowingongoingness." Kiku Day writes
that flow is found in thepractices of shakuhachi
(16:08):
teaching. As students learn byplaying alongside the teacher,
Day remembers, "my teacher spokeoften about flow. He even said
it in English many times to besure I understood him." in
teaching and peacebuilding flowmay be an ongoing balance
(16:28):
between action and non action,movement and stillness that
opens generative possibilities.
Listen here to a recording ofKiku de playing Sinubi [music].
(18:09):
I've read in a number of yourarticles or books about how this
practice of playing along withthe teacher is something that
really centers flow and itcenters, this idea that
everybody has their own breath,and their own length of breath,
if I'm understanding that,right?
Kiku Day (18:24):
that the flow of the piece Yes, and that's one thing
that's very, very difficult onshakuhachi because the tempo
changes all the time. And it canchange within one phrase and
slow down within the same phraseand, and it's alive all the
(18:45):
time. So it's something thatwill be very difficult to write
down. And even if you wrote itdown, it will be too
complicated. But when you'replaying along this way, you kind
of learn it intuitively. So thethis kind of mimicking practice
(19:07):
is certainly a very efficientway of teaching this complicated
flow of a piece. You know howand where are the silences where
are the, you know breaks inbetween and, and things like
that. If you're a very goodstudent, I've heard that you're
(19:30):
just a fraction of a secondbehind your teacher so you just
have that momentary listen ofwhat he's or she's doing. So
yes, and also flow of a piece. Ithink I've never thought about
(19:52):
this, playing piano or traverseflute or anything like that. But
playing shakuhachi I found thatthe flow, the special flow that
each piece has was somethingthat was quite difficult to
understand to internalize and toembody. And so if I played a
(20:14):
piece, and I played the nextpiece, it somehow very often
sounded like the previous piece.
Couldn't kind of had to kind ofreally like, imagine the new
piece, and then play it. Andthen I could, you know,
successfully change the flow insome ways. And this is
(20:34):
interesting, because I don'thave this problem anymore. But I
don't know when that changed. Icertainly remember that was one
of the very difficult things togo from a piece to the next. And
make sure that you knew from thebeginning, what piece you're
(20:55):
playing, what kind of feeling ithas, and what flow it has.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (21:05):
Yeah.
That's, that's a word that Ihave seen come up and Bonnie
Wade's writing as well, as shewrites about the koto and other
incidences that word Flow isused a lot in English
descriptions of practices ofJapanese music. So it's
interesting.
Kiku Day (21:24):
Yeah, I think also, because that's the thing. Now,
the honkyoku is a solorepertoire. So I have mostly
done in traditional Japanesemusic, only solo music. And, but
of course, solo is not the onlything that exists and, and in
(21:46):
ensemble music, you have verymuch a concept where you are
supposed to breathe together. Soas long as your breath is, you
know, in accordance to eachother, then you can kind of, you
know, speed up or slow down.
That that's very interesting,and an extremely difficult thing
to catch. I think I haven'ttried it very many times, so I'm
(22:10):
not very experienced in it. Butit's similar to how the flow is
when you play solo music, justthat you then have to make sure
that you're doing it inaccordance with the other
person. The other person's
Kevin Shorner-Johnso (22:31):
Shakuhachi instruction unwinds a search for
the individuality of breath, andthe particular nature of a
composition. Of breath, Daywrites, quote, "as all players
have different durations ofbreath, length and speed are
thereby determined by theperformers own breathing. Okuda
(22:55):
often told me in lessons thatthe only rhythm and honkyoku is
the rhythm of your breath, notmine, not anybody else's, but
your own. The followingrecording of Night flying winter
cranes for shakuhachi andelectronics is performed by Kiku
Day and composed by MogensChristensen. This recording is
(23:19):
provided with generouspermission of the performer,
composer and record label[music].
(25:01):
So let's open up that word of Maor that idea of silence or
emptiness. And I was reallyinterested in your recent
article on meditation that therewas a moment in which you really
started paying attention to Maas a part of your meditation
practice. So could you introducemy listeners to Ma and why it's
so important in shakuhachi, it'snot an afterthought, but it's
(25:24):
something that you lean into, insome ways.
Kiku Day (25:28):
Yes, Ma is hard to define, it's very often
described as silence in case ofmusic, the empty part of a
painting, like, if you have abrush painting, then there are
parts of it, where the brushhaven't been, that's the Ma, or
if it's speech, it's thesilence, but ma at the same time
(25:52):
also affects the length of thenotes itself. So Ma is in some
way, also the flow, I would say.
But very often, because Maitself, the character is in
between. So it is very oftenconsidered as what's in between
(26:13):
the silence. But it's, itaffects also the non silent
part. Yeah, so in a way, maybeMa is even flow, I would say,
but there's in shakuhachi,music, the the part where you
(26:36):
play and the part that issilent, it's, in some ways,
equally important. Some wouldeven say the silence is
important. And some times itreally depends on the teacher
and the style. The thing is, theshakuhachi has so many different
(26:58):
guilds, or groups. And each ofthose have quite different
aesthetic values, that it's hardto talk about, you know, making
meta theory on it. So I canreally only speak about the the
styles that I have learned and,and played but as a scholar,
(27:22):
I've gotten into playing morestyles. If I was only a
performer, I will be very happywith Okuda's ???. But as a
scholar, yes, I needed to gointo more into the different
styles
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (27:42):
found in the negative space of a
painting, and the silencebetween notes. Ma is meaningful
absence that carries unsoundedintentions. Not only the absence
itself, but the entrance anddeparture of absence. In our
rush to dominate voids withstreams of activity, we may
(28:05):
benefit from an imagination ofhow we enter absence, offering
the gentleness of meaningfulsilence.
And there's a relationship withMeri and Keri, and I think that
you talked about how the Merihead position leads into the
silence. Is that correct? Or
Kiku Day (28:27):
both Keri and Meri, Yeah, Keri, is the head position
where you play kind of normalnotes, when you just open the
holes and Meri is you lower thenote by actually, you know, you
change the relationship betweenthe mouthpiece and and your
(28:47):
lips, and you actually closemore of the big open hole and at
the top. And you know what thenote but the quality of sound
changes and you also have toblow softer because the hole
will get smaller. So the timbreis very different, much softer.
A little bit darker maybe. Andso, both Keri and Meri notes can
(29:14):
lead into Ma or silence. Butthey have a, I would say this
interpretation obviously. Andmaybe not everyone will agree on
this. But I would say that ifyou end on a Meri note, then
(29:35):
there is this tension in the Mathat comes after or the the
silence that come after that hasthis I have this feeling that
something must come. It's likeyou there is, it feels a little
bit like magnetism in some ways.
You know that there's somethingthat's drawn to it and very
(29:57):
often When you end on a Merinote, then you pick up with a
Merk note And then you kind ofrelease it with a brighter,
stronger Keri note. So, thequality of Ma ending on a Meri
note the quality of Ma orsilence, if we talked about, if
(30:19):
we use it like that after Kerinote is very different, because
on a Keri note you would usuallyreally, really fade out. And it
could be an ending, you know, itdoesn't have to be but it can be
much more than that. Of course,it's much more complex than
(30:41):
that, but I would really saythat a Meri note, a silence
after Meri or Keri note has thisvery different feel to it.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (30:55):
We conclude with a return to the
recording of Sinubi providedwith generous permission by Kiku
Dau the composer Takahashi Yuji[music].
(32:16):
Our time within absences may bea needed rest for the sonic and
spatial dominations of our time.
May we open silent space toexplore cross thresholds and
find voice that is as unique asthe length of our own breath. In
the next episode, we continuethis conversation with an
(32:37):
examination of performances thatcontain an entire universe in a
single sound. Special thanks toKiku Day, Takahashi Yuji, Mogens
Christiansen, and the recordlabel for permission to use
recordings in this podcast. KikuDay's CD titled "wild ways" can
(32:58):
be found on streaming serviceseverywhere. Her website is that
WWW dot Kiku day.com.
This is the music andpeacebuilding podcast hosted by
Kevin Shorner-Johnson. AtElizabethtown College, we host a
master of music education withan emphasis in peacebuilding.
(33:21):
thinking deeply we reclaim spacefor connection and care. Join us
at music peacebuilding.com
Playing shakuhachi I found that the flow the special
(00:05):
flow that each piece has wassomething that was quite
difficult to understand tointernalize and to embody. So if
I played a piece, and I playedthe next piece, it somehow very
often sounded like the previouspiece. Couldn't kind of had to
kind of really like imagine thenew piece and then play it. And
(00:30):
then I could successfully changethe flow in some ways.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (00:35):
You are listening to season three of the
music and peacebuilding podcast,a professional development
network at musicpeacebuilding.com Exploring
intersections of peacebuilding,sacredness, community,
creativity and imaginationthrough research and story. Kiku
day is a shakuhachi player inethnomusicologist. She is a
(00:57):
founding member of the Europeanshakuhachi society, for which
she served as a chairperson from2009 to 2019. Together with
Michael Soumei Coxall, sheinitiated the European
shakuhachi summer school andFestival in 2006 and was the
chair of the world shakuhachiFestival in 2018. Kiku Day
(01:20):
studied shakuhachi with OkudaAtsuya, one of the foremost
performers of jinashishakuhachi. She studied
performance at Mills College,and earned a PhD in
ethnomusicology at SOAS,University of London, where she
completed research on jinashishakuhachi construction, and
collaborated with five composersto create new shakuhachi
(01:44):
repertoire. Several composershave composed works for her
including Roxanna panufnik,Takahashi Yuji, Frank Denyer,
Marisol Jimenez, Marty Regan,and Vytautas Germanavičius. Kiku
Day lives at the meditationcenter Vækstcenteret in the
(02:04):
western part of Denmark. Sheteaches Zensabo style Honkyoku,
improvisation and new music andNørre Snede in Copenhagen,
Denmark, Hamburg, Germany, andLondon, UK.
So my I think my openingquestion is about you as a
bridge builder. If I see a themeacross your work, it's that that
(02:27):
you cross thresholds. And Ithink the book chapter on Tamuke
is also an example of that. Thatcross cultural translation, and
you're helping us to see theways in which things get
reframed as they move acrosscultures through shakuhachi. But
also named some other areaswhere you you straddle
(02:47):
thresholds between your Americanand Japanese identities, you
straddle thresholds between yourresidence in Denmark, you
straddle thresholds of being apractitioner and being an
ethnomusicologist, or anacademic. And also, my sense is
that from the place where youlive, which is a center for
meditation, there's that thatthreshold between the outside
(03:09):
and the inside. So if you wereto narrate a biography of
threshold crossing and how thatinfluences your work, how would
Kiku Day (03:18):
Oh, that's a difficult one, actually. Because I think
you start that?
it's just a condition for me tobe at these kinds of thresholds.
You know, you already mentionedmy fundamental threshold in
(03:38):
national cultural identities. Iactually grew up in Denmark. So
the Danish identity is thestrongest, although the Japanese
and American comes into play aswell. So in a way, I think, this
kind of crossing thresholds iskind of part of my life. And
(03:58):
then it seems like a place whereI can play a role as well, maybe
I'm thrown into it, and I can'tescape it anyway. So I might as
well make the most of it in someways.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (04:14):
Yes, most will claim that space.
Kiku Day (04:17):
Yes, but it did take quite some battle. to kind of
get to that point.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (04:24):
Kiku days heritage of threshold crossings,
accompanies a history ofshakuhachi crossings. The
shakuhachi moved from Korean toJapanese cultures in the eighth
century, and carries a story ofpassages between sacred and
secular. The shakuhachi alsocrosses thresholds of a solo
(04:44):
instrument and one that has aheritage within the Gagaku
ensemble. This instrument becamean important activity among a
group of wandering Buddhistmonks, who formed under the
identity of Komuso monks withinthe Fuke sect. Coming from more
than 77 Komuso temples, thisloose organization of monks were
(05:06):
granted special privileges assamurai to cross community
thresholds in seeking arms whileplaying under the protective
cover of woven baskets.
Kiku Day (05:19):
Suddenly, the shakuhachi was played by these
Komuso monks, Komuso means monksof nothingness. And they had
these Komuso temples scatteredaround the whole of Japan. They
had special privileges ofplaying the shakuhachi, for
example, they had monopoly onthat. And they supposedly play
(05:45):
shakuhachi as their Buddhistpractice. It was a strange sect,
because there are no layperson.
in that sect, it was all monksand the monks had to be from
samurai caste or level ofsociety, you couldn't be a
peasant who wants to wanted tobe a monk, for example. So they
(06:07):
wandered around Japan, and theyhad this privilege that they
also could cross into whereverthey wanted to go. You couldn't
stop a Komuso monk. So theyplayed for alms. And it's that
repertoire that we callhonkyoku. So, hon can be
(06:28):
translated as original or baseor, you know, the fundamental
pieces. And I think we todayknow about 250 pieces. Not at
all that many are known verywell today. But that's the
(06:49):
heritage from the Edo periodtill now the honkyoku pieces
that these monks played.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (07:04):
I'm just curious about something and
maybe totally off. But one ofthe things that we talk about in
peacebuilding a lot is thatafter there's been a period of
violence, one of the biggeststruggles is reintegrating
combatants into society, suchthat they can reintegrate, and
I'm always curious about was theshakuhachi a tool for a warrior
(07:26):
class to be reintegrated duringa time of peace? Or is that an
erroneous guess? Or conclusion?
Kiku Day (07:33):
It's I've never seen it described like that. But most
of the time, when you look at,like also Japanese documents,
talking about the role of theFuke sect as such of the Komuso
monks, it says that, since itwas a peaceful time, and a lot
(07:57):
of these samurais did actuallybecome unemployed in the sense
that they're, you know, theirLords didn't need them anymore.
And since the Japanese societywas very hierarchical, they
couldn't just become a merchantor that would be a very terrible
(08:20):
downgrade in frank, in some waysin at that time. But becoming a
monk was something that wasregarded not so bad, that was an
acceptable transition to anotherrole. Yeah, so yes, you could
say that the Komuso or the Fukesect or Komuso monks did have
(08:42):
that role. They took in and, andgave, samurais, who otherwise
didn't have any, anything to doa purpose in life, but that also
gave a lot of trouble. And we dohave historical documents of the
(09:02):
two main Komuso temples, ??? andthe other one slips my mind, but
the two main ones, they made adecree that Komuso monks
shouldn't drink or shouldn't getinto fights or these kinds of
things. So for sure, though,there was a lot of trouble with
(09:25):
those people. And the Japanese,the older generation as well
have a quite a negative image ofKomuso monks. Yeah, it's so it's
not so romantic as as many mightwant to think. It's certainly
(09:45):
very complex, I would say.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (09:55):
Okay, so if we turn the conversation to
how the shakuhachi is taught,learned and lived. I wanted to,
to move into your recent articlein which you were talking about
your shakuhachi teacher. And yousaid that Okuda, if I'm saying
that right, often said, playyour shakuhachi, so that one
sound contains the wholeuniverse and that playing
(10:17):
shakuhachi is the union ofopposites. So could you paint a
picture of what it was like tostudy with Okuda and how one
sounds the universe and bringstogether opposites through
shakuhachi study and playing?
Kiku Day (10:32):
Yes, it was really a cultural surprise or new thing
for me to study with Okuda.
Since I grew up in Denmark, I,you know, I went to Japan to
study shakuhachi. And I made thedecision to make the shakuhachi
come to me. So I actually waiteduntil the shakuhachi came to me.
(10:53):
And then I was introduced toOkuda. Today, I'm really happy
that that was how it happened.
And so what is very often talkedabout when shakuhachi scholars,
several of us, write about theteaching method, is this tacit
(11:18):
knowledge that is handed over, Iwould say, Okuda actually
started with teaching me quite adifficult piece. I can't imagine
starting students off with thatpiece. But so we stayed with
this piece for more than a year.
And slowly, slowly, I was kindof able to, but I was a
(11:39):
flautist. So I wasn't theslowest, I could blow I knew how
to use my breathing and how tomove my fingers and things like
that. So, but still, I mean, Iremember friends, you know,
saying are you still onlyplaying on that, that one piece?
What piece was that? That wasactually Tamuke. Okay. So a lot
(12:02):
of people, teachers today willteach little children's melodies
or folk music pieces that areeasier, these kinds of things.
But Okuda went straight in andtaught honkyoku.
(12:27):
So these pieces from the Komusomonks, and that was also what I
was interested in. So I wasreally grateful for that.
Because if I had gone to one ofthe teachers who would take me
through a lot of otherrepertoire, first, I think I
would have lost my patience, andgone back to playing the flute.
(12:48):
But I kind of kept with it. Andthe way he taught was, of
course, in the beginning, hewill teach me, you know, phrase
by phrase, he will show, I willimitate, and we will go through
the piece. And from then on, wejust played it together. And I
(13:11):
could of course, stop him. Butit was kind of implicit that you
didn't. So if there were placesthat I wanted to make sure I
heard I could hear him play, I,you know, I try really to play
softly and hear how he wouldplay and just follow. But a lot
(13:34):
of the time for me, I just triedto follow up, sometimes it was
actually really hard. He didn'tslow down anything like that.
And if I got lost, he would justplay on and then I had to find
the place to, a place of hidden.
So that piece like Tamuke, whichwas first time, I will estimate
(13:55):
that I have played with him 100times together. And this was
actually a very, veryinteresting way. I mean, it's a
lot of time, written anddescribe that you you know, the
(14:17):
teacher often is very silent. Soyou silently pass over and it's
the student's responsibility to"steal the art" as the Japanese
have a concept of "stealing theart." And so the art is openly
there, you know, he'll play withyou, you can see the fingers you
(14:38):
can see how we blow through andcan hear how it sounds live. And
then it's up to you to learnfrom it. And it's very
interesting how a piece opens upin the beginning you just
concentrated on on moving yourfingers then you can also add in
the beginning at least when youare a more experienced player
(15:00):
that comes at the same time butthen you add changing the head
positions and then all theaesthetical you know the
ornamentation on all this that'snot written in the score. And
that comes along afterward.
Slowly, slowly, you're able totake another level in.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (15:24):
Drawing upon scholarship from Victor
Fung. I note that manyConfucian, Daoist and dharma
traditions center flow and thesoftness of water as a model of
ethics and beauty flow offersgentle patient persistent
change, and a model of kindnessthat is as natural as the flow
(15:46):
of water. Flow is an action ofmotion and a non action of
stillness. Bonnie Wade's text onJapanese music describes Koto
music as a kind of "flowingongoingness." Kiku Day writes
that flow is found in thepractices of shakuhachi
(16:08):
teaching. As students learn byplaying alongside the teacher,
Day remembers, "my teacher spokeoften about flow. He even said
it in English many times to besure I understood him." in
teaching and peacebuilding flowmay be an ongoing balance
(16:28):
between action and non action,movement and stillness that
opens generative possibilities.
Listen here to a recording ofKiku de playing Sinubi [music].
(18:09):
I've read in a number of yourarticles or books about how this
practice of playing along withthe teacher is something that
really centers flow and itcenters, this idea that
everybody has their own breath,and their own length of breath,
if I'm understanding that,right?
Kiku Day (18:24):
that the flow of the piece Yes, and that's one thing
that's very, very difficult onshakuhachi because the tempo
changes all the time. And it canchange within one phrase and
slow down within the same phraseand, and it's alive all the
(18:45):
time. So it's something thatwill be very difficult to write
down. And even if you wrote itdown, it will be too
complicated. But when you'replaying along this way, you kind
of learn it intuitively. So thethis kind of mimicking practice
(19:07):
is certainly a very efficientway of teaching this complicated
flow of a piece. You know howand where are the silences where
are the, you know breaks inbetween and, and things like
that. If you're a very goodstudent, I've heard that you're
(19:30):
just a fraction of a secondbehind your teacher so you just
have that momentary listen ofwhat he's or she's doing. So
yes, and also flow of a piece. Ithink I've never thought about
(19:52):
this, playing piano or traverseflute or anything like that. But
playing shakuhachi I found thatthe flow, the special flow that
each piece has was somethingthat was quite difficult to
understand to internalize and toembody. And so if I played a
(20:14):
piece, and I played the nextpiece, it somehow very often
sounded like the previous piece.
Couldn't kind of had to kind ofreally like, imagine the new
piece, and then play it. Andthen I could, you know,
successfully change the flow insome ways. And this is
(20:34):
interesting, because I don'thave this problem anymore. But I
don't know when that changed. Icertainly remember that was one
of the very difficult things togo from a piece to the next. And
make sure that you knew from thebeginning, what piece you're
(20:55):
playing, what kind of feeling ithas, and what flow it has.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (21:05):
Yeah.
That's, that's a word that Ihave seen come up and Bonnie
Wade's writing as well, as shewrites about the koto and other
incidences that word Flow isused a lot in English
descriptions of practices ofJapanese music. So it's
interesting.
Kiku Day (21:24):
Yeah, I think also, because that's the thing. Now,
the honkyoku is a solorepertoire. So I have mostly
done in traditional Japanesemusic, only solo music. And, but
of course, solo is not the onlything that exists and, and in
(21:46):
ensemble music, you have verymuch a concept where you are
supposed to breathe together. Soas long as your breath is, you
know, in accordance to eachother, then you can kind of, you
know, speed up or slow down.
That that's very interesting,and an extremely difficult thing
to catch. I think I haven'ttried it very many times, so I'm
(22:10):
not very experienced in it. Butit's similar to how the flow is
when you play solo music, justthat you then have to make sure
that you're doing it inaccordance with the other
person. The other person's
Kevin Shorner-Johnso (22:31):
Shakuhachi instruction unwinds a search for
the individuality of breath, andthe particular nature of a
composition. Of breath, Daywrites, quote, "as all players
have different durations ofbreath, length and speed are
thereby determined by theperformers own breathing. Okuda
(22:55):
often told me in lessons thatthe only rhythm and honkyoku is
the rhythm of your breath, notmine, not anybody else's, but
your own. The followingrecording of Night flying winter
cranes for shakuhachi andelectronics is performed by Kiku
Day and composed by MogensChristensen. This recording is
(23:19):
provided with generouspermission of the performer,
composer and record label[music].
(25:01):
So let's open up that word of Maor that idea of silence or
emptiness. And I was reallyinterested in your recent
article on meditation that therewas a moment in which you really
started paying attention to Maas a part of your meditation
practice. So could you introducemy listeners to Ma and why it's
so important in shakuhachi, it'snot an afterthought, but it's
(25:24):
something that you lean into, insome ways.
Kiku Day (25:28):
Yes, Ma is hard to define, it's very often
described as silence in case ofmusic, the empty part of a
painting, like, if you have abrush painting, then there are
parts of it, where the brushhaven't been, that's the Ma, or
if it's speech, it's thesilence, but ma at the same time
(25:52):
also affects the length of thenotes itself. So Ma is in some
way, also the flow, I would say.
But very often, because Maitself, the character is in
between. So it is very oftenconsidered as what's in between
(26:13):
the silence. But it's, itaffects also the non silent
part. Yeah, so in a way, maybeMa is even flow, I would say,
but there's in shakuhachi,music, the the part where you
(26:36):
play and the part that issilent, it's, in some ways,
equally important. Some wouldeven say the silence is
important. And some times itreally depends on the teacher
and the style. The thing is, theshakuhachi has so many different
(26:58):
guilds, or groups. And each ofthose have quite different
aesthetic values, that it's hardto talk about, you know, making
meta theory on it. So I canreally only speak about the the
styles that I have learned and,and played but as a scholar,
(27:22):
I've gotten into playing morestyles. If I was only a
performer, I will be very happywith Okuda's ???. But as a
scholar, yes, I needed to gointo more into the different
styles
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (27:42):
found in the negative space of a
painting, and the silencebetween notes. Ma is meaningful
absence that carries unsoundedintentions. Not only the absence
itself, but the entrance anddeparture of absence. In our
rush to dominate voids withstreams of activity, we may
(28:05):
benefit from an imagination ofhow we enter absence, offering
the gentleness of meaningfulsilence.
And there's a relationship withMeri and Keri, and I think that
you talked about how the Merihead position leads into the
silence. Is that correct? Or
Kiku Day (28:27):
both Keri and Meri, Yeah, Keri, is the head position
where you play kind of normalnotes, when you just open the
holes and Meri is you lower thenote by actually, you know, you
change the relationship betweenthe mouthpiece and and your
(28:47):
lips, and you actually closemore of the big open hole and at
the top. And you know what thenote but the quality of sound
changes and you also have toblow softer because the hole
will get smaller. So the timbreis very different, much softer.
A little bit darker maybe. Andso, both Keri and Meri notes can
(29:14):
lead into Ma or silence. Butthey have a, I would say this
interpretation obviously. Andmaybe not everyone will agree on
this. But I would say that ifyou end on a Meri note, then
(29:35):
there is this tension in the Mathat comes after or the the
silence that come after that hasthis I have this feeling that
something must come. It's likeyou there is, it feels a little
bit like magnetism in some ways.
You know that there's somethingthat's drawn to it and very
(29:57):
often When you end on a Merinote, then you pick up with a
Merk note And then you kind ofrelease it with a brighter,
stronger Keri note. So, thequality of Ma ending on a Meri
note the quality of Ma orsilence, if we talked about, if
(30:19):
we use it like that after Kerinote is very different, because
on a Keri note you would usuallyreally, really fade out. And it
could be an ending, you know, itdoesn't have to be but it can be
much more than that. Of course,it's much more complex than
(30:41):
that, but I would really saythat a Meri note, a silence
after Meri or Keri note has thisvery different feel to it.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (30:55):
We conclude with a return to the
recording of Sinubi providedwith generous permission by Kiku
Dau the composer Takahashi Yuji[music].
(32:16):
Our time within absences may bea needed rest for the sonic and
spatial dominations of our time.
May we open silent space toexplore cross thresholds and
find voice that is as unique asthe length of our own breath. In
the next episode, we continuethis conversation with an
(32:37):
examination of performances thatcontain an entire universe in a
single sound. Special thanks toKiku Day, Takahashi Yuji, Mogens
Christiansen, and the recordlabel for permission to use
recordings in this podcast. KikuDay's CD titled "wild ways" can
(32:58):
be found on streaming serviceseverywhere. Her website is that
WWW dot Kiku day.com.
This is the music andpeacebuilding podcast hosted by
Kevin Shorner-Johnson. AtElizabethtown College, we host a
master of music education withan emphasis in peacebuilding.
(33:21):
thinking deeply we reclaim spacefor connection and care. Join us
at music peacebuilding.com
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