December 31, 2021 • 40 mins
This conversation with Sandeep Das explores the influence of Yo-Yo Ma, the generosity of musical service and Dehli to Damascus. This centers on the notion of incompleteness, shared heritages of poetry, maqams, and the unique stories that inform a wisdom of compassion. We enter deep notions of “surrender” in a bhajan beloved by Mahatma Gandhi and the HUM ensemble’s musical realization of surrender, longing, balance, and cyclical hope.
The Music & Peacebuilding Podcast is hosted by Kevin Shorner-Johnson at Elizabethtown College. Join our professional development network at www.musicpeacebuilding.com - thinking deeply we reclaim space for connection and care.
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Episode Transcript
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Sandeep Das (00:00):
We are nothing in isolation. Nothing has grown in
isolation. There is good and badthere is you know light and
dark. As long as we are able toleave them with these thoughts,
there is hope and we will diewith hope.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (00:13):
You are listening to season three of the
music and peacebuilding podcast,a professional development
network at musicpeacebuilding.com Exploring
intersections of peacebuilding,sacredness, community,
creativity and imaginationthrough research and story. A
Guggenheim Fellow and Grammywinning musician Sandeep Das is
(00:35):
one of the leading tablavirtuosos in the world today.
Since his debut concert at theage of 17, with legendary sitar
player Ravi Shankar, Das hasestablished himself as one of
India's leading tabla maestro'sbuilding a prolific
international reputationspanning three decades, Das has
(00:56):
collaborated with top musiciansand ensembles from across the
world, such as Yo Yo Ma, and theSilk Road Ensemble, with whom he
has performed for the past 21years, as well as paquito de
Rivera, Bobby McFerrin andiconic orchestras, like the New
York Philharmonic, BostonSymphony, and Chicago Symphony,
(01:17):
among others. His originalcompositions have been performed
in over 50 countries, includingevents at the Forbidden City
concert hall, the HollywoodBowl, and the Sydney Opera
House, and for the 150thanniversary of the United
Nations, and by university andchildren's ensembles across the
(01:38):
globe. Das is the founder ofharmony and universality through
music hum, a nonprofitorganization in India that has
promoted global understandingthrough music performance, and
provided learning opportunitiesand scholarships for visually
impaired children with artisticpotential since 2009. This
(02:01):
conversation focuses on Sandeepdas and his album Delhi to
Damascus. A second episode willfollow this one with Dharma
tradition scholar, Dr. Jeffreylong as He illuminates the magic
of the stories that color andinspire this album.
Yeah, if I can, I want to startwith your intentions. And I have
(02:25):
loved this opportunity to beable to sit with your album and
listen to it on repeat andreally dive deep into this
album. So in the liner notes,you write, or somebody writes,
inspired by yo yo mas vision tocreate a more inclusive world
you founded harmony anduniversality through music or
hum to promote globalunderstanding through music and
(02:49):
provide scholarships sospecially abled children
interested in music. So wouldyou tell me about the genesis of
this ensemble and how youarrived at Harmony universality
through an Oud sarangi sitar andTabla.
Sandeep Das (03:03):
Sure. So I would say the Genesis is absolutely
inspired by him. And and youknow, the great human being that
yo yo, ma is, you know, Ipersonally consider the cello
that you see in his hand is justan excuse to make him human.
It's like, oh, what does he do?
He plays the cello. But he, heis so much more than the cello
that we hear. So in my personallife, I call him the greatest
(03:27):
human being that I've met. Sothis happened. Almost I would
say, you know, 20 years back, Iwas going to a press conference
with him in Chicago, we were inresidency in Chicago, with the
city of Chicago. And as I waswalking with him, he and I were
talking, and he mentioned howonly a very small percentage of
(03:52):
young kids in Chicago, make itto high school. So he was we
were talking about the largenumber of dropouts, and you
know, it suddenly hit me thatwhat am I doing, to carry
forward this amazing thing thathe has, you know, introduced me
to, I felt very selfish, I felt,I come here and you know, back
(04:16):
then I used to live in India.
I've been playing in the USsince 1990. But I've never lived
here. I've only started livinghere nine years back. So back
then I would I felt that I justcome here, play these amazing
concerts with Yo Yo Ma. And goback and forget about doing
anything, you know, doing mybit. That really stirred
(04:40):
something inside me and I wentback and I started talking to my
wife and to some of my very,very close friends that you know
what, I want to do somethingdifferent here rather than just
play concerts. I sat down withmy friends and you know, we
started thinking how best to doit. A memory came back into my
(05:02):
heart from I think 1991 or 92, Iwas invited to play a concert
for the Indian National spasticsociety. I had said yes to it
just like a regular concert. Andwhen only when I got up on stage
and two kids came up to give mea bouquet. I realized what this
(05:24):
organization was about, and Isaid, Oh, my God, I can't take
money from these people. So endof concert, when the lady who
had invited me came with acheck, I said, you know, I don't
I can't take this money fromyou. She said, Well, we have
issued this check to you. Soyou, you have to take this
check. But you can write us acheck back of you know what,
(05:47):
however, whatever amount youwant, back then, that thought
crossed my head that you knowwhat, if ever I reach a stage
where I can do something to makea difference? I will do it.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (06:01):
Sandeep das described his journey within
India to realize a mission toserve children with visual
impairments.
Sandeep Das (06:09):
I meet this little kid who is now I think, 17 years
old, or 16 years old, or maybeolder. But at that time is like
probably nine years old, oreight years old. He's playing
this folk instrument called thedholak. Little kid playing
dholak. He can't see me. So hedoesn't know who I am, what I
(06:32):
do. And his principal introducesOh, we have this very, extremely
talented kid who plays thisdrum. And I asked him to play
and he plays it wonderfully. SoI'm like, oh, so how did you
learn this? And he says, Oh, Ithink there is a temple near my
house. So I hear people playingit. So I have picked it up by
listening across the street. SoI was like, so touched. So I
(06:57):
looked at the school principal,and I said, Do you have a tabla
or something by any chance here?
And she said, Yes. So I pulledup, I got a tabla. And I played
for him. And he followed thesound and he, like turned
towards me and said, Hmm, youare not bad. And, you know, that
was the moment of love, Iimmediately cracked up. And I
(07:22):
was like, Oh, my God, I said,this child is mine. And that's
how it started. We started withthat just one kid. And I'm very
proud that we have grown to ninechildren now. And that one
little kid is actually nowplaying and playing very well.
And my hope is to get him somescholarship or something that so
(07:45):
that I can move help him move tothe US and continue teaching him
and he probably could be thefirst, you know, visually
impaired Rockstar tabla playerin the world. So it started with
good intentions. And that's whyit still exists. And it has only
grown there is a saying inHindi, or actually, it's Urdu
(08:07):
neat SAF to Monza la Sol, whichliterally translated means that
when intentions are clean, orintentions are good, Mancillas
destination, the destination iseasy. But I tweak it, I say near
staff, if your intentions areclean, the destination comes to
(08:29):
you. You know, I feel I feelthat's what I'm learning that
destinations come to me and likealmost 15 or more years now, or
probably 17 years now and it'sgrowing and we have now nine
visually impaired kids that'show you know inspired by yo yo
Silk Road and to a certainamount my own feeling of shame
(08:53):
that I wasn't doing anythingthat's started that organization
and then my friends jumped inand hum came into existence
(09:14):
this album, Delhi to Damascus isa result of a direct result of
an image that I saw which I'mpretty sure all of you also saw
of this little kid wearing niceclothes lying dead facedown on a
beach in Italy during the ISIScrisis. So this body had floated
(09:37):
you know, onto this beachsomewhere in Italy and that
picture was splashed all aroundthe world. I saw that picture
one morning and while in Bostonand and you know the ISIS
problem and everything was goingon. I have friends I have
musician friends from all thosecountries and that were getting
(09:57):
affected and I just couldn'ttake it anymore and I picked up
the phone. And yeah, I'm verylucky that I almost can, you
know, say that yo-yo ma is likemy older brother, that I can
pick up the phone and talk tohim, ask him for advice. And so
I just picked up the phone and Isaid, Yo-yo, we just, I just
(10:18):
cannot sit, feel upset, feel sadand feel angry about this. What
should we do? And yo-yo beingwho he is, you know, he
immediately said, well, Sandeep,let's do what we are good at,
let's make more music. And thatswitched on something in my head
(10:41):
in my heart. I was like, Yes,that's it. I got in touch with
friends, you know, who are fromSyria, and I did a Facebook
Live, you know, way beforeFacebook Live was, has become so
common. But yeah, we didsomething. And then I, you know,
made this combination andstarted traveling traveling with
(11:01):
my ensemble, across the US. Andto some countries in Europe. And
everywhere we went, the messagewas very subtle, that we are not
different. We we we are justnormal human beings. And my
friends on stage are also justlike you and me. And amazingly,
(11:22):
without making any politicalstatement. People got it
everywhere.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (11:27):
This excerpt from Aafreen from the
album Delhi to Damascus isprovided through the generous
permission of Sandeep Das, thehum ensemble and his record
label.
(11:59):
So if I start moving throughsome of the tracks I want to
talk about, I thought maybe thewe could start with Afreen
because I think, somewhere I hadread that you had encountered
this understanding that withjust the change of one little
note, a raga can start to becomea Maqam or you know, there's
this there's this beauty and asense of diversity along these
(12:21):
these ancient roads. And so thisparticular song is about this
word that is coloreddifferently, whether it's in
Kurdish Persian, Turkish,Arabic, Egyptian or Tamil. Yes.
So tell me about the diverse andbeautiful ways that this word
changes and how you sought torealize this in music.
Sandeep Das (12:39):
So yeah, you know, to your question, I was actually
doing some teaching at DePaulUniversity in Indiana, and
coaching different kinds ofbands. And there were other
faculties too. So you know,like, I would work with a couple
of bands and teach them inmusics related to my background,
(13:00):
which is traditional Indianclassical. But there is a
amazing musician from China. Andshe has taught them some Chinese
music, and then someone fromMali. And he has taught them
some Malian music, you know, andso I, at the end of this global
musician workshop, when thestudent student bands were
(13:21):
performing, this thought justhit me that, you know, with the
slight change of a note, Ididn't need a passport, I didn't
need to get on a flight. Ididn't need visa, I didn't have
to go through immigrationcontrol. Nobody's saying, You're
not welcome. Nobody, nobody'ssaying you are different. And I
was traveling seamlessly fromone country to the other with
(13:45):
just change of one note. Sothat's how you know like, the
deli to Damascus. And you knowhow I said, yo, yo, inspired me
to do something about it. Istarted this project called
transcending borders one note ata time. So Delhi to Damascus is
my first attempt. The next onethat I'm going to do is Delhi to
(14:06):
Shiraz in Iran, for which I gotthe Guggenheim Fellowship, and
working on Delhi to Karachi. Soyeah, so my hope is, you know,
to create an encyclopedia ofmusic that, you know, 50 years
from now, 100 years from now,when we are all gone, somebody
can still pick up an album andwhatever related to it, and get
(14:28):
a feel of how everything isrelated. So based on that same
thing, when when you think oflanguage, or music or who I am,
you know, when I first came andstarted playing in the West, I
came as a very proud Indianclassical musician. It's only
when I started collaboratingwith other musicians, I would
(14:51):
feel like hey, wait a second.
That sounds very Indian. And theperson is like, no, no, no,
that's very Persian. I'm like,No, that's very Indian and So,
you know, like, it took us sometime, but we were all, you know,
young, in our 20s, when you comewith one, very strongly formed
idea that I realized that, oh,it's so beautiful, that even
slight change of accent, threeof us are saying the same thing.
(15:15):
That's the beauty and then youknow, musically, it's this the
same thing, what's what's intune for, you could sound out of
tune for my ears if my ears arenot prepared. And what's in tune
for me could be out of tune foryou if your ears are not
prepared. So I feel it's veryeasy. How do you approach it
musically, first of all, if yourhearts are open, if you are
(15:40):
ready to learn from one another,if you are ready to listen to
the other, there is nothingthat's not a shared culture.
There is nothing that's notshared heritage. I don't think
any, any music, any culture forthat, from from that point of
(16:01):
view can ever say that oh ourculture or our art grew in
isolation with no influencesfrom the other. So it's all
about opening you know thosewindows into your minds, those
windows in your hearts, andreaching out.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (16:21):
Like a crystal that paints different
refractions of light as it isgently turned, afreen opens
windows of meanings in diverselanguages. imbued with a spirit
of beauty, the word can be amost powerful rose, bravery, an
expression of praise or thanks,a humble prayer to Allah, a form
(16:44):
of creation or a name to signifybeautiful daughter. To Rumi
beauty is a multifaceteddiamond, a cypress a rose, as
beauty resides in a garden oflove, love lights beauty from
within, side by side, step bystep.
(17:19):
So, so Virah might be myfavorite track on the album. And
I think it might be my favoritejust because it has, it has
offered a chance a space forreflection on me about the
importance of longing and whatlonging means. And as I've sat
also with the story of Radha andKrishna that inspires this
(17:41):
there's this meta story acrossthe Silk Road of the the
importance of longing and whatlonging means and how it's a
relation to the Divine as wellas to each other. Tell me about
your reflections about longingas you encountered this
recording and maybe it alsomoves to to a sense of belonging
to and how you set out toexplore and imagine this in a
(18:04):
musical form. I think it's it'sdone so beautifully by the
player of the sarangi.
Sandeep Das (18:09):
So first of all, you know if you play the sarangi
you have a very bad advantage Ialways joke with him I said, you
know, like I don't like you Idon't like you when we crack up
you know, it's like I don't likeyou, you just pull this
instrument out and you like youjust put your bow to that this
instrument and everything isdone. You know. So, first of
(18:30):
all, you know to those listenerswho don't know what a SARANGI is
SARANGI is this bowed instrumentthat comes from India. And the
name SARANGI comes from the termsaw rangi. saw is 100 and
rangji is colors. So aninstrument with 100 colors it's
(18:51):
an instrument if you haven'tlistened to it, go Google it and
you know, find some recordingsor find our recording Delhi to
Damascus and listen to thisyoung master. It's very close to
the human voice. Actually, thisinstrument is close to the human
soul. So when you play thisinstrument, actually it doesn't
(19:12):
matter what you play it affectsyour soul or the soul of the
listener of straight away sothat's the unfair advantage that
I was joking about. You know theother instrument I feel that
that has a similar unfairadvantage is the bamboo flute
the way it's played especiallyin India, you know these two
instruments I'm very jealous ofif I could go back and learn
(19:36):
something I would learn one ofthese two instruments
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (19:48):
in Celtic wisdom,
Irish poet and mystic JohnO'Donohue, reflected that,
quote, distance awakens longing.
closeness is belonging yet theyare always in a dynamic
interflow with each other.
Longing comes from a sense ofour incompleteness and the
relations that uphold being.
O'Donohue writes, quote, The onewho dreamed the universe, loved
(20:14):
circles and created everythingwith such beautiful incompletion
that we need the others tocomplete the circles of
identity, belonging, andcreativity. Life is full of
magnetic interims that call whatis separate and different, to
become one to enter into the artand presence of belonging.
Sandeep Das (20:42):
Next time when you hear this track, or whoever is
listening to it for the firsttime, there is that sense of
longing and belonging and, youknow, stories of Radha and
Krishna and the usual love, andyou know, the love lost. But for
us, it was questioning why wehuman beings cant just see
(21:03):
reason and be, you know, one andonly spread love, so that there
is no question of losingsomeone, or being separated from
someone which we were seeing somuch at that time. I don't know
if I'm making sense, but I'mjust telling you, what was going
through our hearts.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (21:40):
So if we move to a bhajan, I came I saw I
surrender. So maybe you can talkabout the title first, I think
it's a fun, it's a funtranslation of a Latin phrase of
domination into one thatembraces maybe a more
countercultural act ofsurrendering and embracing the
Gandhian idea that's there. Soit can you talk about the title
first, maybe?
Sandeep Das (22:02):
So, so of course, you know, when we were thinking
of titles, so if you see, youknow, the liner notes are also
very powerfully written. A lotof people, you know, the label
and my friends, they were like,oh, no, no, we don't have you
know, there's no such need forliner notes. And then, you know,
(22:26):
thinking of so hard abouttitles, and I was like, No, you
know, when someone picks up analbum, I personally would want
to know why Kevin is recordingthis, this is just another piece
of music that he created, orthere is something. So there is
that personal, you know, thoughtprocess that went through
helping, you know, get thatliner note written. Same thing
(22:50):
happened when we were thinkingof the titles. Of course, you
know, we didn't agree on a lotof titles that we were throwing
at one another, surprisingly,this this title, it came into my
head, and I shared, I said, youknow, what, can we think of this
(23:11):
title as I came, I saw and Isurrendered. And this was one of
the titles that all of us justsaid, Oh, yes, that's it, that
probably, you know, that wholewhole thought process of
surrendering that of letting goof our egos, you know, our
(23:31):
stupidity. So the lyrics of thatpoem also, you know, says that
very, very easily that you know,issuer Allah pero Nam sub
kasangati de Bhagwan, you know,like, the names are different,
but all he's praying for sonMati is good, good sense, or
translated is common sense.
Like, why do we fight abouttemples and mosques and this, we
(23:56):
name our gods differently,whereas they're all the same. So
I felt that you know, we allfelt that this, this title was
apt, and if we just surrenderedto common sense, we probably can
find a common place commonspace, where we will, we will
(24:16):
see reason and we will find loveand spread love again. So that's
what I hope every time I'mplaying not only with my
ensamble everywhere I'm playingI always ask the audience that
you know, if you have loved whatI presented, if you have felt
love in what I've presented,each one of you go out and just
(24:38):
promise me that you will spreadlove to one another person. And
if we do that, you know, like myhope with anything I do, Kevin
is to start something like thisalbum is not the end. This
project transcending borders onenote at a time is not The end,
(24:59):
my hope is that it's thebeginning, all I'm doing is
throwing a pebble in the water.
And hopefully the ripples willget larger and bring some
positivity, happiness and loveand it leaves people so the last
track, that's why we feel thatwe leave the people with a
(25:21):
positive experience, musicalexperience, philosophical
experience, you know, a momentof repose. But in the turn in
return, it starts them on ajourney that spreads positivity,
love and happiness. And maybeyou know, five years from now,
10 years from now, they have totake an important decision. And
(25:43):
this one moment helps them takea positive decision.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (26:07):
To me, there is something magical that
happens at the end of thisbhajan as the intensity
increases. And it's it's thispulsating sense of sound that I
don't think that I'veexperienced in many bhajan And I
was just curious about yourintentions in creating kind of
the soundscape at the end ofthat bhajan. It's, it's
gorgeous.
Sandeep Das (26:26):
Thank you so much.
And amazing, you know,congratulations to you for
noticing it. So traditionally,when bhajans are sung, in
temples around the country,that's what we have grown up
hearing that, you know, theywill start, so people get
together, you know, like,sometimes when it's organized,
then it's not real, then it'snot true. Because then there is
(26:48):
a starting time, there's afinish time, and then there is
this thing that has to happen.
But in the most natural settingsin India, when bhajans are sung,
it's just people gettingtogether, early mornings, or
early evenings, somebody pullsout that very folk instrument, I
(27:08):
was talking about the dholak,and they start playing it, and
they start slow, you know,[musical example] and, whatever
bhajan they want to sing, andsomebody runs and finds, you
know, cymbals, we call themManjeera. And they go [music
example]. But as the eveningprogresses, as they almost get
(27:34):
more meditative, I would say twowords you know, getting into a
trance like situation. And from[music example] it ends up
within that. And then I almosthave heard, like, as a little
kid, I would remember, you know,these songs floating into my
(27:56):
ears while I'm trying to playsoccer inside getting scolded by
my mother not to break things.
It turns into this amazingfrenzied rendition that
literally by the towards theend, you don't even know if
they're singing or not. All youhear is [music example recited
very fast] and the I wanted toreplicate that. So what happens
(28:19):
usually when people read, youknow, do a rendition of Bhajans
in a concert situation, it'svery, you know, tailor made to
an aud..., you know, like, Idon't know what the word is,
it's like, kind of edited andtailor made to suit the needs of
an auditorium, you know, concertgoing audience, and I was like,
(28:43):
Nope, you know, let's let's gofor it. You know, this is more
earthy as you write, you know,you're feeling it, it's more
earthy, it's more real. Andlet's let's go for it. And the
first place I can't rememberwhich city we tried it, people
just went crazy. You know, likethey jumped off their seats. And
(29:04):
when we ended, like, yeah, therewas like an explosion in the
auditorium with the the waypeople stood up and and wouldn't
stop clapping. And we were like,Yeah, this is it, you know, and,
and for us also, if you see someof those clips, there are some
clips on my website of thatending. We are also you know, as
we are going through themotions, we hit a zone that
(29:27):
sometimes it's it's crazy thatsometimes we push it so hard
that our hands feel like likeare ready to drop off. And but
yet we keep going. So yes, it'svery earthy, it's very real. And
it's straight from the villages.
You know, it's straight from thevillages. Its not a modern
(29:48):
temple where it's been curated.
Yeah, that's the word you know,curated and edited. For a
specific audience who don't havemore than 15 minutes in their
life. It's more from Those smalltemples in smaller cities where
the people are just there,they're not looking at a watch.
They're not looking at time. Andthey will go on for however long
they want to go on. So yes, yes,that's what it is. Very good,
(30:11):
very good, very good observation
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (30:14):
So I think this is kind of my last
question that brings peopleclose. Yeah. I want to hold
Ushas and the Shiva and Shaktiside by side, because I think
that these two pieces, at leastfrom the texts that they're
(30:37):
based on, speak to a balance ofeither creation and decay or
masculine and feminine,consciousness and energy, and
the whole idea that theseoperate in cycles and I think
that there may be some lessonsof hope and compassion and maybe
cyclical resilience that arewithin these texts. And this
(30:57):
performance, would you be ableto speak to this and speak to my
peacebuilding audience aboutwhat this what this speaks to?
Sandeep Das (31:05):
So you know, it's amazing that even our music has
this element of the balance,which I don't see in a lot of
other music you know, forexample, let me recite a
composition you know, that willgive you an amazing insight.
This is a composition which is afixed composition just for my
(31:28):
drums that I play the tabla andsee how it's balanced. So [music
example starts] ta ke NagaTakita again, Agatha de Kitakata
cardigan and Nadina Nagi Nikitagi Naga datca tiki taka taka de
ganar. The second part is [musicexample] Ta ke nakikita kina
KatataK the tiki taka taka Teganand Nandina Nagi Nikita
Guernica, Tata Contiki taka takade Gala. So now if I take it
(31:52):
apart the first part the soundsare da you know like it when I
show you my instrument it's alsohas the sound from my left hand
so da ki Naga Takita grenagh. Inthe second it becomes pa kynoch
Takita kynoch So da de NagaTakita Geena the TA ke Naka,
Taka, Taka, Taka, Taka, Taka,Taka, Taka, Taka, Taka, Taka,
(32:15):
taka taka Tichenor. So da kiNaga, Taki, Taki, Naga, Taka
tiki taka, Taka Deegan andDavina Nagi, the tacky tequila
Dhaka tiki taka taka Deagan taKena Cutta Cutta Cutta Cutta
Cutta Cutta tikkanen NandinaNandina Tuckett again, [music
(32:48):
examples recited at faster andfaster speeds]. So that's how
this composition is supposed tobe played in these three layers,
but see how beautifully it'sbalanced. The DA is getting
balanced by the TA and there areso many compositions, both
compositions that you canexpand, compositions that are
(33:09):
fixed, each have this elementand in the way we were taught.
That's the DA ghina is the malepart. But it's incomplete with
the feminine side, which is theTA ghina akattak it so it's this
poetic justice, poetic balance.
So that's, I would say it's veryintegral to the philosophy to
just the sheer awareness withwhich I grew up, you know, I
(33:32):
lived with my guru for 12 years,and that was always drilled into
us that you have to create thisbalance, create this balance,
and also to your point, youknow, the cyclicalness, our
music is very cyclical innature. So, when we go on a
journey, we never forget theroots, you never forget where
(33:55):
you started. So, this thing alsothat I recited, starts on beat
one in a 16 week cycle, but I amalways aware where that one is
because I have to come back. SoIndian ragas, Indian rhythm,
poetry, these compositions havethat inherent philosophy
(34:17):
drilled, so it's always thereand at the end, Usha, you know,
the morning the light, you know,and so, if you put all that
together, there is hope. Thereis always hope that we are
merely you know, we are merelytrying to keep the cycle and the
balance not hoping we arepraying that if we are able to
(34:40):
maintain the cycle, maintainthis balance. You know, music is
just a tool for us to toexpress. But I think the deeper
message here is, let's all doour bit and see the elements
that make us whole that make usto you know, complete. We are
(35:01):
nothing in isolation, nothinghas grown in isolation. And
there is good and bad there isyou know, light and dark. There
is winter that's around thecorner. But there's still a
spring as long as we are able tokeep that in our hearts, share
that I feel the biggest biggestthing that I have become very
(35:23):
passionate is going out andtalking to younger people, you
know, reaching out to the nextgeneration. As long as we are
able to leave them with thesethoughts. There is hope, and and
we will die with hope that yes,we haven't lost it completely.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (35:41):
The next episode will illuminate stories
of Radha and Krishna, Shiva andShakti and Ushas that color this
album. Drawing on the story ofthe bringer of dawn. We know
that embracing the majesty ofthe morning requires a
simultaneous embrace of thequiet night. In the delicate
(36:05):
balance of energy andconsciousness. There lies the
beauty and hope of creation, asmoments are created anew at the
birth of each cycle of sunrise.
(36:50):
I close the interview by askingSandeep if there was anything I
hadn't asked him. He asked tospeak beyond his album to his
search for meaning and serviceas a performing artist. Speaking
of playing soccer with childrenin Brussels, taking an 8.1 mile
walk in memory of losses withNebraska Yazidi communities, and
(37:13):
in reaching out to NativeAmerican communities. Sandeep
finds life to be meaningful asan expression of service,
reaching beyond the walls of theconcert hall to reach and
connect lives in humane ways.
Sandeep Das (37:28):
I watched a movie Teata, out of nowhere on
Netflix, if you haven't seen it,please watch it. It's a real
life story of movie based on areal story of a woman from
Oklahoma, I think in the 1800sand immediately by something has
happened and I'm like, why notDelhi to Chickasaw Nation? Why
(37:50):
not Delhi to you know, Mashpination, you know, suddenly, God
is showing me directions. So I'mgoing to play a tabla concert
with the Oklahoma orchestra,North Arkansas, Lima, rock,
every orchestra, I'm saying, youwant me to do an outreach work?
(38:14):
Yeah, we have spoken with thelibrary. I said, Great. How
about the Native American museumthere? And you know, they're
loving it. They were veryexcited. I say, You know what, I
will still do what you're askingme to do with the library there.
How about reaching out to theNative American museum? Let's
just go. Let's see what we cando with them. So you know, I am
(38:36):
excited about that. I'm lookingforward. And I just am thankful
that God is showing me thosepaths. God is opening those
windows and those doors andsaying, Hey, you don't think
that you have done a lot.
There's so much more to do. Butthat's what keeps me excited.
And that's what keeps me up atnight. And that's what I look
(38:58):
forward. So I look forward toyou know, coming to
Elizabethtown and wherever andwhenever and going and doing our
bit. So that's what that's whatexcites me.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (39:10):
I'm very grateful for that spirit. I
think it's so important that
Sandeep Das (39:13):
absolutely, yeah, I feel it's no longer an option.
Kevin, I think it's become ourduty.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (39:22):
May we open ourselves to the
incompleteness of our being,refracting a diversity of
languages, sounds, into manyfaceted palettes of color,
finding balance and completenessin relation. May we be moved to
action, surrendering the selfinto generous compassion.
(39:47):
Special thanks to Sandeep dasfor his time and thoughts in
this generous conversation.
Thank you to the communicationand recording efforts of Bailey
O'Donnell Special thanks toSandeep does the HUM ensemble
and their record label forgenerous permissions to use
recordings in this podcast. Ihighly recommend his album,
(40:07):
Delhi to Damascus, availablewhere albums can be streamed or
purchased. More information canbe found at Sandeep das.com.
This is the music andpeacebuilding podcast hosted by
Kevin Shorner-Johnson. AtElizabethtown College, we host a
master of music education withan emphasis in peacebuilding.
(40:30):
thinking deeply we reclaim spacefor connection and care. Join us
at music peacebuilding.com
We are nothing in isolation. Nothing has grown in
isolation. There is good and badthere is you know light and
dark. As long as we are able toleave them with these thoughts,
there is hope and we will diewith hope.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (00:13):
You are listening to season three of the
music and peacebuilding podcast,a professional development
network at musicpeacebuilding.com Exploring
intersections of peacebuilding,sacredness, community,
creativity and imaginationthrough research and story. A
Guggenheim Fellow and Grammywinning musician Sandeep Das is
(00:35):
one of the leading tablavirtuosos in the world today.
Since his debut concert at theage of 17, with legendary sitar
player Ravi Shankar, Das hasestablished himself as one of
India's leading tabla maestro'sbuilding a prolific
international reputationspanning three decades, Das has
(00:56):
collaborated with top musiciansand ensembles from across the
world, such as Yo Yo Ma, and theSilk Road Ensemble, with whom he
has performed for the past 21years, as well as paquito de
Rivera, Bobby McFerrin andiconic orchestras, like the New
York Philharmonic, BostonSymphony, and Chicago Symphony,
(01:17):
among others. His originalcompositions have been performed
in over 50 countries, includingevents at the Forbidden City
concert hall, the HollywoodBowl, and the Sydney Opera
House, and for the 150thanniversary of the United
Nations, and by university andchildren's ensembles across the
(01:38):
globe. Das is the founder ofharmony and universality through
music hum, a nonprofitorganization in India that has
promoted global understandingthrough music performance, and
provided learning opportunitiesand scholarships for visually
impaired children with artisticpotential since 2009. This
(02:01):
conversation focuses on Sandeepdas and his album Delhi to
Damascus. A second episode willfollow this one with Dharma
tradition scholar, Dr. Jeffreylong as He illuminates the magic
of the stories that color andinspire this album.
Yeah, if I can, I want to startwith your intentions. And I have
(02:25):
loved this opportunity to beable to sit with your album and
listen to it on repeat andreally dive deep into this
album. So in the liner notes,you write, or somebody writes,
inspired by yo yo mas vision tocreate a more inclusive world
you founded harmony anduniversality through music or
hum to promote globalunderstanding through music and
(02:49):
provide scholarships sospecially abled children
interested in music. So wouldyou tell me about the genesis of
this ensemble and how youarrived at Harmony universality
through an Oud sarangi sitar andTabla.
Sandeep Das (03:03):
Sure. So I would say the Genesis is absolutely
inspired by him. And and youknow, the great human being that
yo yo, ma is, you know, Ipersonally consider the cello
that you see in his hand is justan excuse to make him human.
It's like, oh, what does he do?
He plays the cello. But he, heis so much more than the cello
that we hear. So in my personallife, I call him the greatest
(03:27):
human being that I've met. Sothis happened. Almost I would
say, you know, 20 years back, Iwas going to a press conference
with him in Chicago, we were inresidency in Chicago, with the
city of Chicago. And as I waswalking with him, he and I were
talking, and he mentioned howonly a very small percentage of
(03:52):
young kids in Chicago, make itto high school. So he was we
were talking about the largenumber of dropouts, and you
know, it suddenly hit me thatwhat am I doing, to carry
forward this amazing thing thathe has, you know, introduced me
to, I felt very selfish, I felt,I come here and you know, back
(04:16):
then I used to live in India.
I've been playing in the USsince 1990. But I've never lived
here. I've only started livinghere nine years back. So back
then I would I felt that I justcome here, play these amazing
concerts with Yo Yo Ma. And goback and forget about doing
anything, you know, doing mybit. That really stirred
(04:40):
something inside me and I wentback and I started talking to my
wife and to some of my very,very close friends that you know
what, I want to do somethingdifferent here rather than just
play concerts. I sat down withmy friends and you know, we
started thinking how best to doit. A memory came back into my
(05:02):
heart from I think 1991 or 92, Iwas invited to play a concert
for the Indian National spasticsociety. I had said yes to it
just like a regular concert. Andwhen only when I got up on stage
and two kids came up to give mea bouquet. I realized what this
(05:24):
organization was about, and Isaid, Oh, my God, I can't take
money from these people. So endof concert, when the lady who
had invited me came with acheck, I said, you know, I don't
I can't take this money fromyou. She said, Well, we have
issued this check to you. Soyou, you have to take this
check. But you can write us acheck back of you know what,
(05:47):
however, whatever amount youwant, back then, that thought
crossed my head that you knowwhat, if ever I reach a stage
where I can do something to makea difference? I will do it.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (06:01):
Sandeep das described his journey within
India to realize a mission toserve children with visual
impairments.
Sandeep Das (06:09):
I meet this little kid who is now I think, 17 years
old, or 16 years old, or maybeolder. But at that time is like
probably nine years old, oreight years old. He's playing
this folk instrument called thedholak. Little kid playing
dholak. He can't see me. So hedoesn't know who I am, what I
(06:32):
do. And his principal introducesOh, we have this very, extremely
talented kid who plays thisdrum. And I asked him to play
and he plays it wonderfully. SoI'm like, oh, so how did you
learn this? And he says, Oh, Ithink there is a temple near my
house. So I hear people playingit. So I have picked it up by
listening across the street. SoI was like, so touched. So I
(06:57):
looked at the school principal,and I said, Do you have a tabla
or something by any chance here?
And she said, Yes. So I pulledup, I got a tabla. And I played
for him. And he followed thesound and he, like turned
towards me and said, Hmm, youare not bad. And, you know, that
was the moment of love, Iimmediately cracked up. And I
(07:22):
was like, Oh, my God, I said,this child is mine. And that's
how it started. We started withthat just one kid. And I'm very
proud that we have grown to ninechildren now. And that one
little kid is actually nowplaying and playing very well.
And my hope is to get him somescholarship or something that so
(07:45):
that I can move help him move tothe US and continue teaching him
and he probably could be thefirst, you know, visually
impaired Rockstar tabla playerin the world. So it started with
good intentions. And that's whyit still exists. And it has only
grown there is a saying inHindi, or actually, it's Urdu
(08:07):
neat SAF to Monza la Sol, whichliterally translated means that
when intentions are clean, orintentions are good, Mancillas
destination, the destination iseasy. But I tweak it, I say near
staff, if your intentions areclean, the destination comes to
(08:29):
you. You know, I feel I feelthat's what I'm learning that
destinations come to me and likealmost 15 or more years now, or
probably 17 years now and it'sgrowing and we have now nine
visually impaired kids that'show you know inspired by yo yo
Silk Road and to a certainamount my own feeling of shame
(08:53):
that I wasn't doing anythingthat's started that organization
and then my friends jumped inand hum came into existence
(09:14):
this album, Delhi to Damascus isa result of a direct result of
an image that I saw which I'mpretty sure all of you also saw
of this little kid wearing niceclothes lying dead facedown on a
beach in Italy during the ISIScrisis. So this body had floated
(09:37):
you know, onto this beachsomewhere in Italy and that
picture was splashed all aroundthe world. I saw that picture
one morning and while in Bostonand and you know the ISIS
problem and everything was goingon. I have friends I have
musician friends from all thosecountries and that were getting
(09:57):
affected and I just couldn'ttake it anymore and I picked up
the phone. And yeah, I'm verylucky that I almost can, you
know, say that yo-yo ma is likemy older brother, that I can
pick up the phone and talk tohim, ask him for advice. And so
I just picked up the phone and Isaid, Yo-yo, we just, I just
(10:18):
cannot sit, feel upset, feel sadand feel angry about this. What
should we do? And yo-yo beingwho he is, you know, he
immediately said, well, Sandeep,let's do what we are good at,
let's make more music. And thatswitched on something in my head
(10:41):
in my heart. I was like, Yes,that's it. I got in touch with
friends, you know, who are fromSyria, and I did a Facebook
Live, you know, way beforeFacebook Live was, has become so
common. But yeah, we didsomething. And then I, you know,
made this combination andstarted traveling traveling with
(11:01):
my ensemble, across the US. Andto some countries in Europe. And
everywhere we went, the messagewas very subtle, that we are not
different. We we we are justnormal human beings. And my
friends on stage are also justlike you and me. And amazingly,
(11:22):
without making any politicalstatement. People got it
everywhere.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (11:27):
This excerpt from Aafreen from the
album Delhi to Damascus isprovided through the generous
permission of Sandeep Das, thehum ensemble and his record
label.
(11:59):
So if I start moving throughsome of the tracks I want to
talk about, I thought maybe thewe could start with Afreen
because I think, somewhere I hadread that you had encountered
this understanding that withjust the change of one little
note, a raga can start to becomea Maqam or you know, there's
this there's this beauty and asense of diversity along these
(12:21):
these ancient roads. And so thisparticular song is about this
word that is coloreddifferently, whether it's in
Kurdish Persian, Turkish,Arabic, Egyptian or Tamil. Yes.
So tell me about the diverse andbeautiful ways that this word
changes and how you sought torealize this in music.
Sandeep Das (12:39):
So yeah, you know, to your question, I was actually
doing some teaching at DePaulUniversity in Indiana, and
coaching different kinds ofbands. And there were other
faculties too. So you know,like, I would work with a couple
of bands and teach them inmusics related to my background,
(13:00):
which is traditional Indianclassical. But there is a
amazing musician from China. Andshe has taught them some Chinese
music, and then someone fromMali. And he has taught them
some Malian music, you know, andso I, at the end of this global
musician workshop, when thestudent student bands were
(13:21):
performing, this thought justhit me that, you know, with the
slight change of a note, Ididn't need a passport, I didn't
need to get on a flight. Ididn't need visa, I didn't have
to go through immigrationcontrol. Nobody's saying, You're
not welcome. Nobody, nobody'ssaying you are different. And I
was traveling seamlessly fromone country to the other with
(13:45):
just change of one note. Sothat's how you know like, the
deli to Damascus. And you knowhow I said, yo, yo, inspired me
to do something about it. Istarted this project called
transcending borders one note ata time. So Delhi to Damascus is
my first attempt. The next onethat I'm going to do is Delhi to
(14:06):
Shiraz in Iran, for which I gotthe Guggenheim Fellowship, and
working on Delhi to Karachi. Soyeah, so my hope is, you know,
to create an encyclopedia ofmusic that, you know, 50 years
from now, 100 years from now,when we are all gone, somebody
can still pick up an album andwhatever related to it, and get
(14:28):
a feel of how everything isrelated. So based on that same
thing, when when you think oflanguage, or music or who I am,
you know, when I first came andstarted playing in the West, I
came as a very proud Indianclassical musician. It's only
when I started collaboratingwith other musicians, I would
(14:51):
feel like hey, wait a second.
That sounds very Indian. And theperson is like, no, no, no,
that's very Persian. I'm like,No, that's very Indian and So,
you know, like, it took us sometime, but we were all, you know,
young, in our 20s, when you comewith one, very strongly formed
idea that I realized that, oh,it's so beautiful, that even
slight change of accent, threeof us are saying the same thing.
(15:15):
That's the beauty and then youknow, musically, it's this the
same thing, what's what's intune for, you could sound out of
tune for my ears if my ears arenot prepared. And what's in tune
for me could be out of tune foryou if your ears are not
prepared. So I feel it's veryeasy. How do you approach it
musically, first of all, if yourhearts are open, if you are
(15:40):
ready to learn from one another,if you are ready to listen to
the other, there is nothingthat's not a shared culture.
There is nothing that's notshared heritage. I don't think
any, any music, any culture forthat, from from that point of
(16:01):
view can ever say that oh ourculture or our art grew in
isolation with no influencesfrom the other. So it's all
about opening you know thosewindows into your minds, those
windows in your hearts, andreaching out.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (16:21):
Like a crystal that paints different
refractions of light as it isgently turned, afreen opens
windows of meanings in diverselanguages. imbued with a spirit
of beauty, the word can be amost powerful rose, bravery, an
expression of praise or thanks,a humble prayer to Allah, a form
(16:44):
of creation or a name to signifybeautiful daughter. To Rumi
beauty is a multifaceteddiamond, a cypress a rose, as
beauty resides in a garden oflove, love lights beauty from
within, side by side, step bystep.
(17:19):
So, so Virah might be myfavorite track on the album. And
I think it might be my favoritejust because it has, it has
offered a chance a space forreflection on me about the
importance of longing and whatlonging means. And as I've sat
also with the story of Radha andKrishna that inspires this
(17:41):
there's this meta story acrossthe Silk Road of the the
importance of longing and whatlonging means and how it's a
relation to the Divine as wellas to each other. Tell me about
your reflections about longingas you encountered this
recording and maybe it alsomoves to to a sense of belonging
to and how you set out toexplore and imagine this in a
(18:04):
musical form. I think it's it'sdone so beautifully by the
player of the sarangi.
Sandeep Das (18:09):
So first of all, you know if you play the sarangi
you have a very bad advantage Ialways joke with him I said, you
know, like I don't like you Idon't like you when we crack up
you know, it's like I don't likeyou, you just pull this
instrument out and you like youjust put your bow to that this
instrument and everything isdone. You know. So, first of
(18:30):
all, you know to those listenerswho don't know what a SARANGI is
SARANGI is this bowed instrumentthat comes from India. And the
name SARANGI comes from the termsaw rangi. saw is 100 and
rangji is colors. So aninstrument with 100 colors it's
(18:51):
an instrument if you haven'tlistened to it, go Google it and
you know, find some recordingsor find our recording Delhi to
Damascus and listen to thisyoung master. It's very close to
the human voice. Actually, thisinstrument is close to the human
soul. So when you play thisinstrument, actually it doesn't
(19:12):
matter what you play it affectsyour soul or the soul of the
listener of straight away sothat's the unfair advantage that
I was joking about. You know theother instrument I feel that
that has a similar unfairadvantage is the bamboo flute
the way it's played especiallyin India, you know these two
instruments I'm very jealous ofif I could go back and learn
(19:36):
something I would learn one ofthese two instruments
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (19:48):
in Celtic wisdom,
Irish poet and mystic JohnO'Donohue, reflected that,
quote, distance awakens longing.
closeness is belonging yet theyare always in a dynamic
interflow with each other.
Longing comes from a sense ofour incompleteness and the
relations that uphold being.
O'Donohue writes, quote, The onewho dreamed the universe, loved
(20:14):
circles and created everythingwith such beautiful incompletion
that we need the others tocomplete the circles of
identity, belonging, andcreativity. Life is full of
magnetic interims that call whatis separate and different, to
become one to enter into the artand presence of belonging.
Sandeep Das (20:42):
Next time when you hear this track, or whoever is
listening to it for the firsttime, there is that sense of
longing and belonging and, youknow, stories of Radha and
Krishna and the usual love, andyou know, the love lost. But for
us, it was questioning why wehuman beings cant just see
(21:03):
reason and be, you know, one andonly spread love, so that there
is no question of losingsomeone, or being separated from
someone which we were seeing somuch at that time. I don't know
if I'm making sense, but I'mjust telling you, what was going
through our hearts.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (21:40):
So if we move to a bhajan, I came I saw I
surrender. So maybe you can talkabout the title first, I think
it's a fun, it's a funtranslation of a Latin phrase of
domination into one thatembraces maybe a more
countercultural act ofsurrendering and embracing the
Gandhian idea that's there. Soit can you talk about the title
first, maybe?
Sandeep Das (22:02):
So, so of course, you know, when we were thinking
of titles, so if you see, youknow, the liner notes are also
very powerfully written. A lotof people, you know, the label
and my friends, they were like,oh, no, no, we don't have you
know, there's no such need forliner notes. And then, you know,
(22:26):
thinking of so hard abouttitles, and I was like, No, you
know, when someone picks up analbum, I personally would want
to know why Kevin is recordingthis, this is just another piece
of music that he created, orthere is something. So there is
that personal, you know, thoughtprocess that went through
helping, you know, get thatliner note written. Same thing
(22:50):
happened when we were thinkingof the titles. Of course, you
know, we didn't agree on a lotof titles that we were throwing
at one another, surprisingly,this this title, it came into my
head, and I shared, I said, youknow, what, can we think of this
(23:11):
title as I came, I saw and Isurrendered. And this was one of
the titles that all of us justsaid, Oh, yes, that's it, that
probably, you know, that wholewhole thought process of
surrendering that of letting goof our egos, you know, our
(23:31):
stupidity. So the lyrics of thatpoem also, you know, says that
very, very easily that you know,issuer Allah pero Nam sub
kasangati de Bhagwan, you know,like, the names are different,
but all he's praying for sonMati is good, good sense, or
translated is common sense.
Like, why do we fight abouttemples and mosques and this, we
(23:56):
name our gods differently,whereas they're all the same. So
I felt that you know, we allfelt that this, this title was
apt, and if we just surrenderedto common sense, we probably can
find a common place commonspace, where we will, we will
(24:16):
see reason and we will find loveand spread love again. So that's
what I hope every time I'mplaying not only with my
ensamble everywhere I'm playingI always ask the audience that
you know, if you have loved whatI presented, if you have felt
love in what I've presented,each one of you go out and just
(24:38):
promise me that you will spreadlove to one another person. And
if we do that, you know, like myhope with anything I do, Kevin
is to start something like thisalbum is not the end. This
project transcending borders onenote at a time is not The end,
(24:59):
my hope is that it's thebeginning, all I'm doing is
throwing a pebble in the water.
And hopefully the ripples willget larger and bring some
positivity, happiness and loveand it leaves people so the last
track, that's why we feel thatwe leave the people with a
(25:21):
positive experience, musicalexperience, philosophical
experience, you know, a momentof repose. But in the turn in
return, it starts them on ajourney that spreads positivity,
love and happiness. And maybeyou know, five years from now,
10 years from now, they have totake an important decision. And
(25:43):
this one moment helps them takea positive decision.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (26:07):
To me, there is something magical that
happens at the end of thisbhajan as the intensity
increases. And it's it's thispulsating sense of sound that I
don't think that I'veexperienced in many bhajan And I
was just curious about yourintentions in creating kind of
the soundscape at the end ofthat bhajan. It's, it's
gorgeous.
Sandeep Das (26:26):
Thank you so much.
And amazing, you know,congratulations to you for
noticing it. So traditionally,when bhajans are sung, in
temples around the country,that's what we have grown up
hearing that, you know, theywill start, so people get
together, you know, like,sometimes when it's organized,
then it's not real, then it'snot true. Because then there is
(26:48):
a starting time, there's afinish time, and then there is
this thing that has to happen.
But in the most natural settingsin India, when bhajans are sung,
it's just people gettingtogether, early mornings, or
early evenings, somebody pullsout that very folk instrument, I
(27:08):
was talking about the dholak,and they start playing it, and
they start slow, you know,[musical example] and, whatever
bhajan they want to sing, andsomebody runs and finds, you
know, cymbals, we call themManjeera. And they go [music
example]. But as the eveningprogresses, as they almost get
(27:34):
more meditative, I would say twowords you know, getting into a
trance like situation. And from[music example] it ends up
within that. And then I almosthave heard, like, as a little
kid, I would remember, you know,these songs floating into my
(27:56):
ears while I'm trying to playsoccer inside getting scolded by
my mother not to break things.
It turns into this amazingfrenzied rendition that
literally by the towards theend, you don't even know if
they're singing or not. All youhear is [music example recited
very fast] and the I wanted toreplicate that. So what happens
(28:19):
usually when people read, youknow, do a rendition of Bhajans
in a concert situation, it'svery, you know, tailor made to
an aud..., you know, like, Idon't know what the word is,
it's like, kind of edited andtailor made to suit the needs of
an auditorium, you know, concertgoing audience, and I was like,
(28:43):
Nope, you know, let's let's gofor it. You know, this is more
earthy as you write, you know,you're feeling it, it's more
earthy, it's more real. Andlet's let's go for it. And the
first place I can't rememberwhich city we tried it, people
just went crazy. You know, likethey jumped off their seats. And
(29:04):
when we ended, like, yeah, therewas like an explosion in the
auditorium with the the waypeople stood up and and wouldn't
stop clapping. And we were like,Yeah, this is it, you know, and,
and for us also, if you see someof those clips, there are some
clips on my website of thatending. We are also you know, as
we are going through themotions, we hit a zone that
(29:27):
sometimes it's it's crazy thatsometimes we push it so hard
that our hands feel like likeare ready to drop off. And but
yet we keep going. So yes, it'svery earthy, it's very real. And
it's straight from the villages.
You know, it's straight from thevillages. Its not a modern
(29:48):
temple where it's been curated.
Yeah, that's the word you know,curated and edited. For a
specific audience who don't havemore than 15 minutes in their
life. It's more from Those smalltemples in smaller cities where
the people are just there,they're not looking at a watch.
They're not looking at time. Andthey will go on for however long
they want to go on. So yes, yes,that's what it is. Very good,
(30:11):
very good, very good observation
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (30:14):
So I think this is kind of my last
question that brings peopleclose. Yeah. I want to hold
Ushas and the Shiva and Shaktiside by side, because I think
that these two pieces, at leastfrom the texts that they're
(30:37):
based on, speak to a balance ofeither creation and decay or
masculine and feminine,consciousness and energy, and
the whole idea that theseoperate in cycles and I think
that there may be some lessonsof hope and compassion and maybe
cyclical resilience that arewithin these texts. And this
(30:57):
performance, would you be ableto speak to this and speak to my
peacebuilding audience aboutwhat this what this speaks to?
Sandeep Das (31:05):
So you know, it's amazing that even our music has
this element of the balance,which I don't see in a lot of
other music you know, forexample, let me recite a
composition you know, that willgive you an amazing insight.
This is a composition which is afixed composition just for my
(31:28):
drums that I play the tabla andsee how it's balanced. So [music
example starts] ta ke NagaTakita again, Agatha de Kitakata
cardigan and Nadina Nagi Nikitagi Naga datca tiki taka taka de
ganar. The second part is [musicexample] Ta ke nakikita kina
KatataK the tiki taka taka Teganand Nandina Nagi Nikita
Guernica, Tata Contiki taka takade Gala. So now if I take it
(31:52):
apart the first part the soundsare da you know like it when I
show you my instrument it's alsohas the sound from my left hand
so da ki Naga Takita grenagh. Inthe second it becomes pa kynoch
Takita kynoch So da de NagaTakita Geena the TA ke Naka,
Taka, Taka, Taka, Taka, Taka,Taka, Taka, Taka, Taka, Taka,
(32:15):
taka taka Tichenor. So da kiNaga, Taki, Taki, Naga, Taka
tiki taka, Taka Deegan andDavina Nagi, the tacky tequila
Dhaka tiki taka taka Deagan taKena Cutta Cutta Cutta Cutta
Cutta Cutta tikkanen NandinaNandina Tuckett again, [music
(32:48):
examples recited at faster andfaster speeds]. So that's how
this composition is supposed tobe played in these three layers,
but see how beautifully it'sbalanced. The DA is getting
balanced by the TA and there areso many compositions, both
compositions that you canexpand, compositions that are
(33:09):
fixed, each have this elementand in the way we were taught.
That's the DA ghina is the malepart. But it's incomplete with
the feminine side, which is theTA ghina akattak it so it's this
poetic justice, poetic balance.
So that's, I would say it's veryintegral to the philosophy to
just the sheer awareness withwhich I grew up, you know, I
(33:32):
lived with my guru for 12 years,and that was always drilled into
us that you have to create thisbalance, create this balance,
and also to your point, youknow, the cyclicalness, our
music is very cyclical innature. So, when we go on a
journey, we never forget theroots, you never forget where
(33:55):
you started. So, this thing alsothat I recited, starts on beat
one in a 16 week cycle, but I amalways aware where that one is
because I have to come back. SoIndian ragas, Indian rhythm,
poetry, these compositions havethat inherent philosophy
(34:17):
drilled, so it's always thereand at the end, Usha, you know,
the morning the light, you know,and so, if you put all that
together, there is hope. Thereis always hope that we are
merely you know, we are merelytrying to keep the cycle and the
balance not hoping we arepraying that if we are able to
(34:40):
maintain the cycle, maintainthis balance. You know, music is
just a tool for us to toexpress. But I think the deeper
message here is, let's all doour bit and see the elements
that make us whole that make usto you know, complete. We are
(35:01):
nothing in isolation, nothinghas grown in isolation. And
there is good and bad there isyou know, light and dark. There
is winter that's around thecorner. But there's still a
spring as long as we are able tokeep that in our hearts, share
that I feel the biggest biggestthing that I have become very
(35:23):
passionate is going out andtalking to younger people, you
know, reaching out to the nextgeneration. As long as we are
able to leave them with thesethoughts. There is hope, and and
we will die with hope that yes,we haven't lost it completely.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (35:41):
The next episode will illuminate stories
of Radha and Krishna, Shiva andShakti and Ushas that color this
album. Drawing on the story ofthe bringer of dawn. We know
that embracing the majesty ofthe morning requires a
simultaneous embrace of thequiet night. In the delicate
(36:05):
balance of energy andconsciousness. There lies the
beauty and hope of creation, asmoments are created anew at the
birth of each cycle of sunrise.
(36:50):
I close the interview by askingSandeep if there was anything I
hadn't asked him. He asked tospeak beyond his album to his
search for meaning and serviceas a performing artist. Speaking
of playing soccer with childrenin Brussels, taking an 8.1 mile
walk in memory of losses withNebraska Yazidi communities, and
(37:13):
in reaching out to NativeAmerican communities. Sandeep
finds life to be meaningful asan expression of service,
reaching beyond the walls of theconcert hall to reach and
connect lives in humane ways.
Sandeep Das (37:28):
I watched a movie Teata, out of nowhere on
Netflix, if you haven't seen it,please watch it. It's a real
life story of movie based on areal story of a woman from
Oklahoma, I think in the 1800sand immediately by something has
happened and I'm like, why notDelhi to Chickasaw Nation? Why
(37:50):
not Delhi to you know, Mashpination, you know, suddenly, God
is showing me directions. So I'mgoing to play a tabla concert
with the Oklahoma orchestra,North Arkansas, Lima, rock,
every orchestra, I'm saying, youwant me to do an outreach work?
(38:14):
Yeah, we have spoken with thelibrary. I said, Great. How
about the Native American museumthere? And you know, they're
loving it. They were veryexcited. I say, You know what, I
will still do what you're askingme to do with the library there.
How about reaching out to theNative American museum? Let's
just go. Let's see what we cando with them. So you know, I am
(38:36):
excited about that. I'm lookingforward. And I just am thankful
that God is showing me thosepaths. God is opening those
windows and those doors andsaying, Hey, you don't think
that you have done a lot.
There's so much more to do. Butthat's what keeps me excited.
And that's what keeps me up atnight. And that's what I look
(38:58):
forward. So I look forward toyou know, coming to
Elizabethtown and wherever andwhenever and going and doing our
bit. So that's what that's whatexcites me.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (39:10):
I'm very grateful for that spirit. I
think it's so important that
Sandeep Das (39:13):
absolutely, yeah, I feel it's no longer an option.
Kevin, I think it's become ourduty.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (39:22):
May we open ourselves to the
incompleteness of our being,refracting a diversity of
languages, sounds, into manyfaceted palettes of color,
finding balance and completenessin relation. May we be moved to
action, surrendering the selfinto generous compassion.
(39:47):
Special thanks to Sandeep dasfor his time and thoughts in
this generous conversation.
Thank you to the communicationand recording efforts of Bailey
O'Donnell Special thanks toSandeep does the HUM ensemble
and their record label forgenerous permissions to use
recordings in this podcast. Ihighly recommend his album,
(40:07):
Delhi to Damascus, availablewhere albums can be streamed or
purchased. More information canbe found at Sandeep das.com.
This is the music andpeacebuilding podcast hosted by
Kevin Shorner-Johnson. AtElizabethtown College, we host a
master of music education withan emphasis in peacebuilding.
(40:30):
thinking deeply we reclaim spacefor connection and care. Join us
at music peacebuilding.com
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