March 19, 2022 • 51 mins
The music of the Pamir Mountains in Tajikistan offers opportunities to explore the importance of poetry, rhythmic flexibility, and sacred space within wellness and healing. Dr. Benjamin Koen is a leader in medical ethnomusicology who has written texts and articles exploring Maddâh or Maddoh and the practice of this sung poetry as an expression that promotes psychological flexibility for new perspectives of healing. This episode explores Rumi’s Masnavi and spirituality with musical excerpts.
The Music & Peacebuilding Podcast is hosted by Kevin Shorner-Johnson at Elizabethtown College. Join our professional development network at www.musicpeacebuilding.com - thinking deeply we reclaim space for connection and care.
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Benjamin Koen (00:00):
That's one of the things I love is is
understanding deeply within aculture or within a one person
culture. I like to call it howthese things work. You know,
what are people's experience,and discern ways that can be
taught and shared with otherpeople so they can also benefit
(00:20):
from it.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (00:21):
You're listening to season three of the
music and peacebuilding podcast,a professional development
network at musicpeacebuilding.com Exploring
intersections of peacebuilding,sacredness, community,
creativity and imagination.
Through research and story. Dr.
Benjamin D Coen is aninternational leader in the
(00:43):
research, practice performanceand teaching of music,
meditation, improvisation,healing, health and wellness.
His scholarship includes twogroundbreaking books with Oxford
University Press, the OxfordHandbook of medical
ethnomusicology, and beyond theRoof of the World, music prayer
(01:03):
and healing in the PamirMountains. As a critically
acclaimed jazz world musicianand improviser on tenor and
soprano, saxophones, worldflutes and drums and
didgeridoos. And as a composerand recording artist, Dr. Coen's
music and performances haveappeared on a number of
recordings, in film, televisionand on the web. This podcast is
(01:29):
a rich and complex conversation.
Throughout this conversation, Iinvite you to sit with a central
theme that of the power ofmoving into alternate space time
to gain new perspectives andreorganize our being. In the
rush of the day to day, many ofus often lose our perspectives
and cause harm with our reducedvisibility. What happens when we
(01:50):
pause to open new frames? Whathappens when we enter new senses
of time beyond the demands ofthe here and now? How do we move
from imbalance to balance?
Because of the nine or 10Internet disruptions between
Pennsylvania and Hong Kong, thisinterview has been edited to
(02:14):
improve flow and cohesiveness.
So in your space of medicalethnomusicology, I sense that
there's a deep challenge to thedangerous limitations. That's
your quote, of the exclusivereliance on scientific healing.
And if I read your quote, yousay, there's a desperate need
(02:34):
for individual and societalhealing far beyond the facade of
the body and the materialdimension of life, allowing
transformations in ways thatrecognize and support unity and
diversity, foster a greaterrealization of the oneness of
humanity, and create wholeness.
For me, there's a servicecentered impetus underlying my
interest, which arises from whatI see as foundational to any
(02:57):
scholarly endeavor. Could youtalk about the service centered
impetus that you're feeling andhow you are moving into medical
ethnomusicology that movesbeyond the facade of the body?
Benjamin Koen (03:12):
So, you know, at the time of, of writing, that, I
was spending a lot of thoughtfultime and a lot of different
areas of research literature.
You know, there were somemovements, I would say, within
certain schools of cognitivescience that were, you know,
part of my, my graduate studies,that there was this debate
(03:34):
about, you know, kind of thatancient debate about the
material and intangible ortranscendent part of life, not
necessarily science andreligion, that's, you know, kind
of the older version of it, butI wanted to strike some balance,
and I'm not sure I did in thatbook, but maybe in subsequent
writing, strike a balancebetween... or not even between
(03:55):
but but take a, strike a balanceby taking a holistic view at the
topics I was interested in. Andso, those topics dealt with, you
know, music, the mind,consciousness, and meditation,
you know, as an area of inquiry,and of applied practice that
(04:20):
could really help people. So,you know, when you deal with
music, you immediately are takeninto not only kind of the vast
complexity of how music andsound and meaning, connect to
and effect change within thecomplex that is a human being.
(04:41):
But those experiences are sooften transcendent, spiritual,
somehow, there's something elsethere something intangible that
seems to be not only part andparcel of music, but That thing
that really attracts us, ashuman beings. And I think it's
(05:04):
that area where the meaninglives where that that
transcendent experience lies,however, we want to want to call
it maybe beyond the facade ofthe body was was too strong. But
that area, and especially thatexperience of transcendence is
so central to musics, potentialefficacy, when we start thinking
(05:28):
about healing, health and wellbeing.
One of the main ideas was toapproach this, this space in
this area to build up theknowledge so that it could
(05:50):
actually be applied and helpmore people, because so many of
the things that people aresuffering with, can be if not
fully treated and cured, atleast be supportive of health
and well being, and quality oflife. Because they deal with
that interaction of the mind,belief, and, you know,
(06:12):
lifestyle. So that's become, youknow, a really important focus,
and, most recently, trying, justtrying to help people bring the
body back into focus within thatholistic frame. So really not
denying any part, you know, butreally building this, the way I
(06:33):
think about it is through thisfive factor model of the body,
mind, spirit, emotions andrelationships, or, you know, in
the scientific lingo, the biopsycho social, emotional and
spiritual, transcendent. Sothat's been my focus of late,
you know, taking it further intothe realm of actually teaching
music, meditation practices forpeople's health and well being.
(06:55):
And that's been especiallyimportant these last couple
years with the pandemic, forsure.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (07:00):
I pivoted to ask Cohen about spirituality,
because spirituality andunderstandings of what the
spiritual is, are at the heartof understanding Maddoh. Cohen
notes that spirituality orsomething that is intangible,
transcendent, or elusive, has afoundational role in well being.
Benjamin Koen (07:24):
When we use spiritual as a parameter, to
speak about something elusive,or intangible, or otherwise, we
can't explain, but it plays suchan important role, not only in
our lives, but in our ability tomove from one state of being to
another. So from like anillness, or ill structured
(07:45):
profile into one of health andwellness and hopefully,
eventually, vitality. And thatprocess of moving from one state
to another is called Healing,right? It's a kind of
transformation. Andincidentally, that's where the
music meditation practice thatI've been working with, and
using in my research for so manyyears, and teaching people to
(08:08):
use in their own health andwellness practices. It has it
started off as a process ofhealing. But as I continued to
use it in my own life, and teachit and research it and look at
it in different contexts, thisdynamic of music and meditation,
(08:28):
I realized it could be used forany goal. In other words,
healing itself is a process thatmoves from one state to another,
it gets to a desired outcome,right, which is a state of
health and wellness andhopefully more, vitality, human
flourishing and so forth. Butthat movement, from one state to
another as a kind oftransformation, I thought, well,
(08:50):
any goal achievement is a kindof transformation, and how could
this process of music meditationplay into goal achievement,
whether it was you know, appliedin an educational setting, or in
a business setting, you know, orany kind of consultative
setting, right? So, that's beena big part of my most recent
(09:15):
thinking and use of the musicmeditation process.
But getting back to the idea ofspirituality and healing. I've
spent my life around peoplebecause both of my parents were
in medicine, and then being ableto travel extensively, and, and
(09:41):
then do research in this field.
I've been really fortunate totalk with lots of people going
through all kinds of illness andhealing processes. And there is
this sense of insight we cansay. Sense of knowing that
people often have when they cankind of shut off areas of their
(10:04):
brain, you know, kind of tweakthe story that's running on the
subconscious record of the mind,and get into a place of the
meditative mind, where they canhave insight about what has led
to or caused the state thatthey're in, then find some way.
(10:24):
And this is where, you know, aguided process is usually very
helpful, find some way to helpheal that to transform that.
Now, that whole dynamic, I wouldsay, you know, it falls into,
you know, certainly apsychological frame. But often
people describe it in a veryspiritual frame, you know, what
(10:47):
I mean? And so, understandingwhat spiritual means for people
with respect to healing is oftena very, you know, personal
thing. And so, therein lies oneof the struggles of, of doing a
research that uses, you know,spirituality or the spiritual as
a domain of measure, right,because it, it has meaning
(11:10):
within a culture, broadlyspeaking, but even more
importantly, within theindividual, you know, cultural
landscape of a human being. Sothere's something I think that
music itself is, I would say,inherently spiritual, it has
this stuff of itself, that is,in part because of the way the
(11:37):
neurophysiology of hearing worksin human beings. And that
through the process oflistening, and the frequency is
coming in through the the ear,hitting the eardrum, going
through the Basler membrane,and, you know, having
neurotransmitters released incorrelation to the kind of
(11:58):
sound, music, that's being takenin, and most importantly, the
meaning that that music or soundcarries, facilitates this neuro
physiological process, which isbeautiful and fascinating. That
is the foundation of ourexperience, our consciousness,
(12:22):
our biochemistry, our emotionalself, and then how we then act
and behave and move through lifeon a daily basis.
You know, there, for somepeople, certainly, the spiritual
(12:43):
domain is, you know, squarelywithin a religious framework and
a belief system or philosophy orideology. And for some, it's not
right. The thing that I findfascinating and beautiful and
empowering about the whole thingis this relationship between
music and the mind, music andmeditation, and music itself is
(13:07):
a meditation, meditation oftenitself takes a, you know,
specialized sounded or musicalform. Sometimes they're one of
the same. But music, meditation,the mind and healing, you know,
that these things work togetherin a very fascinating way. And
(13:28):
all three of them music,meditation and healing, have
some deep connection to our youknow conceptualization of and
experience of the spiritual orthe transcendent. A lot of that
understanding comes out in youknow, deep ethnographic research
(13:49):
of understanding how peopleexpress their experience of
healing, music and meditation.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (13:58):
I turned our conversation to ask about
the particular spiritualitywithin this mountainous region
of Tajikistan and how it informsthe practice of Maddoh
Benjamin Koen (14:11):
you know, in in the poetry and the the
spiritual, mystical traditionsin the Persian speaking world.
Okay. And of course, you know,Sufism is probably the the most
well known mystical tradition inthe Middle East and from The
Persian speaking world,primarily, at least as its
(14:34):
origin, because of the toweringfigure of Maulana Jalaluddin
Rumi, the poet and mystic, butthere are so many others from
that world of wonderful,incredible poetry. So, you know,
including the figures of HafizSadie host row and in that world
(15:00):
of poetry, there are somerecurrent and beautiful
metaphors for human progress andfor human growth and
development. There are severalcommon and beautiful metaphors
that talk about this humandevelopment and flourishing and
(15:23):
it's mostly framed in aspiritual way, and between the
lover and the beloved, you know,so one of those is this idea of
the moth being so attracted soin love with and really
entranced by a flame, it's it'slove is so powerful that it
(15:44):
can't stop itself from gettingso close to the flame or even at
its singes, its wings if notbeing totally consumed. And the
idea there of being consumed isnot about death, or dying of the
physical self, or anything darkor tragic, but really, the dying
(16:05):
of the lower self, or the nafs,in that context of Tajikistan,
you know, there's this aspect ofunity of oneness again, that
happens when one is entrancedwith that, that fire of love,
and the idea, you know, within aperson's self, bringing together
(16:30):
all aspects of oneself, right.
And so, a direct relationshipkind of on the practical side,
if I can just kind of jump backand forth. One of the powerful
things that music does not thatit is only a meditation, not
that it is a vehicle of meaningthese two are so important, but
also music functions as a bridgebetween the subconscious and
(16:53):
conscious mind. And it does thatin part because of that
neurophysiological process of,of hearing, and the meaning that
it carries. And so when we lookat, you know, studies of music
and the brain, music andcognition and brain activity,
and so forth, we see that musicis one of these rare things that
(17:16):
it's not like the old idea ofright brain, left brain or more
creativity on this side. Andthat's, and of course, there are
certain centers that haveimportant roles to play. But
music is one of those thingsthat really holistically
connects with and effects,activity and change in the
(17:37):
brain.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (17:42):
In his article for ethos, Cohen begins
by noting that the spiritualenergy of Baraka is central to
understanding healing throughMaddoh. Baraka is a generative,
lifeforce and spiritual energyfrom God that is associated with
prophets and mystical figures,and particularly within special
(18:03):
places, like the majesticmountains of the Pamir region.
Within the spiritual traditionsof this place, the self is
divided between a higher and alower self, an individual
detaches from the worldly, lowerself or the nafs, to move toward
the true and higher self. Thishigher self is comprised of
(18:27):
Aql-tan-ruh, or the three partwhole of the mind, body spirit.
The spiritual experience ofMaddoh brings about a kind of
psychological flexibility, or aspace that allows new
perspectives. A participantwithin Coen's writing reflects
that in Maddoh quote, my bodyrelaxes, I become empty but full
(18:51):
of spirit (Ruh) and love. Ileave my body and forget. I'm in
another atmosphere, anotherworld. I think it is a kind of
Mercy (rahmat), music is a mercyand blessing. It is like
traveling far away and I can seethings spiritual things. I
(19:12):
change when I sing and pray andeverything can change then to be
good, healed. It is a mysticalfeeling. A transcendent state
that is moving like water, freeand I fly. I am always better
and refreshed afterwards. Ibecome new if the music and
(19:32):
prayer is true." Listen to thiscoming excerpt provided by Dr.
Coen, where performers preparespiritual space through the
opening notes at the Munajatsection of Maddoh. This first
section creates a feeling ofdetachment or disengagement as
(19:53):
the participant seeks todisengage from the worldly or
lower self, the Nafs.
Unknown (20:18):
[Music excerpt - Munajat]
Benjamin Koen (20:51):
but there's tons of, tons of metaphors. The
nightingale is another one, youknow that you mentioned. And
part of that is the entrancingmelody of the nightingale that
one harkens to, you know, thewhole idea of listening is also
at the heart of this mysticalpoetic tradition. You know, the
very beginning of Molana Rumi'sMasnavi is a great poetic work
(21:21):
of 1000s of rhyming couplets. Itstarts off saying, listen to the
Ney, you know, hearken to thesound of the Ney of the Persian
reed flute, as it bewales, itsplight, having been separated
(21:44):
from its homeland. And, youknow, this is another metaphor
about returning to the Beloved,you know, returning to one
source. So, you know, if we takeit out of that language, and we
think about becoming wholebecoming one again, right,
finding peace and tranquility.
And from that space, one can seeclearly, you know, one can feel
(22:05):
more clearly and can understandthings more clearly. So, I
think, in all endeavors, youknow, tapping into that
meditative state is one of thethings that we need to do, as a,
as a humanity, you know, it's asimportant as, or at least, you
know, immediately after waterand food and shelter, and love
(22:30):
and sex and music or, you know,meditation, it's, and I would
say, maybe it's one of thosebasic essential states that we
need.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (22:48):
Within Persian speaking cultures,
poetry is quote, placed at thecenter rather than the fringes
of life. Coen notes that therhythm, intonation and emotional
content of poetry are thefoundation upon which the
mystical, classical and folktraditions of music lie. Drawing
(23:09):
upon that, we embrace sectionsfrom the introduction of Rumi's
Masnavi, in which he uses themetaphor of the reed and the
reed flute, to speak toconnectedness, longing,
consolation and purity. It isworth noting the special place
that Rumi holds in Tajikistan assomeone who was born in the
(23:30):
space between Afghanistan andTajikistan, In the opening of
Rumi's Masnavi, he speaks of thequote, reed flutes deep lament,
to note the agony of separationand longing for return. His
language speaks of unchainingand releasing from the hold of
(23:51):
greed and the here and nowspeaking to the elegance of the
Ney or the flute, he writes,quote, loves fire is what makes
every Reed Flute pine lovesfervor thus lends potency to
wine, the reed consoles, thoseforced to be apart, it's notes
(24:11):
will lift the veil upon yourheart.
I think I was going to reflectto you just how much the poetic
traditions draw me to the Sufitradition when I had a chance to
go to Azerbaijan. You know, forme, it was it was kind of
leaning into that love that Ihad for Mugham and the way in
(24:35):
which they lean into the poetictraditions that I just so
admire.
Benjamin Koen (24:39):
Yeah, you know, I think it's poetry. And if we
extend it into, you know, somany of the poetic traditions
there, they just want to besung. You know, there's a thing
called declame, which is like adeck, declaring it's a way of
saving upon in Persian, but youknow, so many of them, they just
(25:03):
they start to build and they andthis happens with so many
traditions, they just want to besung you know, so that bridge
between poem into song, youknow, into music is really
powerful. But I think we've lostthat in a lot of places in the
world, you know. So many friendsthat speak Persian, especially
(25:26):
the older generations, alwayshave a poem on the tip of their
tongue to contribute to anysituation, you know, to make a
comment to support, to breakdown.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (25:37):
So can you take us into this form of
Maddoh and, and what this formlooks like and how it integrates
prayer, meditation, poetryaroused emotional states, so
introduce us to this genre andthis form, if you would,
Benjamin Koen (25:52):
sure. So, Maddoh in the Pamir Mountains of
Tajikistan is the one of, if notthe preeminent devotional music
among the Pamiri people, themajority of whom are Ismaili
Muslims, which follows a verymystic tradition similar to
Sufism, different, but for thosepeople that that aren't familiar
(26:15):
with it, that's a good kind ofstarting point of understanding.
I've had many Tajik friends say,you know, thank you for making
that clarification. And then hesay, yeah, thank you for making
that comparison. So Maddoh, youknow, it's funny, you know,
(26:36):
playing the language game ofcommunicating about all these
things. Think of it like this,Maddoh is a devotional music
genre. It IS a corpus of poems.
So it is a form of poetry. It ISa meditative and spiritual
practice. And it's a healingpractice. And it's a practice of
worship. So it is all thosethings together. On the musical
(27:00):
side, you know, it, it has avery unique structure in
Tajikistan. And I can just say,incidentally, that you can find
Maddoh and pronounced indifferent ways, you know,
throughout the Middle East. Itcan have different forms of
expression, you know, it cansound different in different
(27:23):
places. It's fascinating, theMaddoh in the Pamir Mountains of
Tajikistan, you know, has asimilar form all over the region
there, it has a three part form.
And those three sections arecalled munâjât, Haidari and
setâyesh. And these threesections, they start kind of in
(27:47):
a low energy reflective, youknow, moving out of silent state
where people come into the mainroom where they perform Maddoh
called the maddâhkhâne. Andpeople collect themselves, you
know, prepare themselves for theexperience, they're going to
have this mystical devotional,in some cases healing
(28:11):
experience. And, you know, thegenre is used, like I said, for
worship, but also education. Sofor many things, it's not that
everyone always comes to aMaddoh ceremony for healing. But
you know, in the broaderspiritual sense of things, it is
looked at as something that isgood for health and well being
(28:36):
AND has a healing function justinherent within it. So it starts
off from that place ofreflection meditation, getting
ready to perform, and the themain singer, the Maddoh Khan,
who's reciting these poems andplaying the pulmonary rebab a
long necked lute and the musicitself is, is how to describe
(29:00):
it? I can just hear it in myhead right now so much it's you
know, very I could say almostStark in a way you know, some of
my Tajik friends that perform itsay it's primal almost you know,
there's something fundamental.
Unknown (29:37):
[Music Excerpt - Maddoh]
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (29:55):
As described in this podcast,
Maddoh is constructed of threesections. The Munajat Haidari,
and the setâyesh. The secondsection of muddle is a, quote,
contemplation of options, as thelistener encounters stories with
moral conflicts that illustratepotential outcomes. Listen now
(30:17):
to an excerpt of Haidari.
Benjamin Koen (30:47):
Many have said that because of the vast
mountain range that let many ofthe Pamir traditions develop
with less outside influence.
That's one reason that it kindof has taken this form. So when
I refer to it this way, it'sbeautiful and powerful. And but
you know, there's, there's a lotof space that one can, can hear
(31:11):
within that genre. And, youknow, I'm thinking rhythmically
for a second, there's a kind ofopen and driving aspect to the
rhythm that is unique to the, tothe region. So it moves from
this first very kind ofmeditative state of munâjât,
(31:32):
which is another word for a kindof prayer supplication into
Haidari, which is more stories,and that's where a drum enters.
And that could be you know, 123of these Rubabs, and then maybe
123 daf or doire frame drumswith rings on the inside, they
(31:53):
start to play in a strong duplemeter Goon Gaga, Goon Gaga.
And then it goes into this thirdpart called setâyesh, which goes
into a new rhythm that's verydriving. And one of the things
in my research, it came out thatthis rhythm is actually
(32:15):
structured over a five meterperiod, right, so it's an a
meter of five. And it has theseeight pulses that kind of
function as a as a three meter,like two versions of 123123. And
then one, two, making eightpulses. But kind of two groups
of three, and then one shortenedone. And then on the other side,
(32:40):
there's this kind of evenlyspaced five meter that follows
along the poetic structure. Soyou have this interesting kind
of shortened two against three,rhythm that itself is quite
flexible, open, there's a lot ofbreath, you know, in that
rhythmic structure, it's quitefascinating. The reason that's
(33:05):
interesting is because the thepeople themselves there identify
themselves with the symbol offive in many aspects of life.
And the religious beliefpractices, the natural and built
environment, the rivers, themaddâhkhâne, like five, five
shows up many, many times whatthey self identify as. So it's
(33:30):
quite fascinating that withinthe most, one of the most
important genres of music, andat the height of that music, the
state that is helping peoplemove from that previous state,
or let's say if we're looking athealing an illness state into
one of health and well being anda big part of that journey is
(33:55):
understood spiritually, viewedand experienced spiritually, but
also musically, it, this rhythmand the poems and the energy
also propel a person into thatstate that they they want to get
to
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (34:10):
the final stage, the setâyesh, becomes the
most intense where conflict isresolved, and participants are
invited into a new state of mindand being. This is the work of
reframing with rhythmic lilt, amove into the liminal space
beyond the here and now tocontemplate with the clarity of
alternate organizations of time[excerpt of setâyesh].
(35:19):
Yeah I wondered if you couldkind of paint a picture for us.
So one of the things I foundfascinating your book is that
you talked about this, this rolethat you took on sometimes as
being the outsider and theguest. And how the outsider and
guest in this particular cultureis, is seen as maybe a source of
healing, could you kind of painta picture for us about what
(35:42):
Maddoh looks like in the spaceof healing and your own
experience,
Benjamin Koen (35:46):
it looks very much like a meditative community
experience. Okay, so you havemaybe three to five, six
musicians. But in themaddâhkhâne, the main room of
the primary traditional home,which is upheld by five
structural, but also symbolicpillars. People sit around the,
(36:08):
you know, edges, the walls ofthe room, sometimes lean against
the pillars, and are in areflective state, you know,
there's not a lot of movement,in Maddoh, mostly, you know,
there's not dance involved inMaddoh, there is some movement,
you know, mostly from themusicians, or people may be
(36:32):
swaying a little bit back andforth. But it looks like people,
you know, sitting around a roomkind of in their space, but also
connected. And there's a pointwithin Maddoh, where the
community actually cry out oneof the words and the word in
Persian is a, and in Arabic, itwould be Yah, but it's basically
(36:58):
like a supplication saying, oh,like saying, Oh God, right. And
so after the singing of thesepoetic verses, these spiritual
lines, and the music coming up,and the whole, let's say, a few
phrases of the poetry, or a kindof verse, if you will, ends,
(37:18):
then everyone sings this "a"together. And it's quite, quite
powerful. So there's, there's avery powerful musical, spiritual
energy from the music. Butthere's also a very calm,
tranquil kind of state ofpeople. Being in that self
reflection and just state ofimmersion in that experience.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (37:44):
The movement from a calmness to a
heightened state of arousal is akey part of the experience,
participants expressed a feelingof quote, nonstop forward
motion, upward movement, arising sensation, energy, or a
movement from heaviness tolightness. Coen notes that one
(38:07):
participant expressed feelingphysically lighter, during the
setâyesh, that transferred intoa feeling of floating with a
participant experienced thespiritual or baten. Embeingment
is a word that Coen uses todescribe when a new
consciousness is brought aboutwithin the body. He states
(38:31):
embeingment, then is a processof absorbing positive energy.
And disembeingment the absenceof that energy, just as darkness
is the absence of light. Thatis, darkness has no energy of
its own, it is dependent on theabsence of light. New
(38:51):
perspectives and flexible changemay be at the heart of movements
from illness to wellbeing, aswell as from rigid dichotomies
to open perspectives andpossibilities of peace.
Benjamin Koen (39:06):
So the idea with embeingment is that, you know,
we have an experience, and thatforms part of our, of all of
these aspects, you know, notjust the body. And then the
important part of that is that,you know, when we go through
that experience of hearingsomething, focusing on
something, getting into thatmeditative state, letting it
(39:29):
trickle down, letting it beabsorbed, and letting ourselves
embody it, it becomes part ofus, you know, wholly, it becomes
part of the way we view theworld, we think about ourselves
and others. So, I just wanted tomake it a little more than just
the body but also what what hasbeen most important recently, is
(39:51):
helping people see how importantthe body is, as a channel of, a
barometer of our state of being,right. So when people have
stress, which, if ignored, leadsto bigger stress, which, if
ignored leads to anxiety andthen depression. So the first
(40:14):
experience of stress, you know,comes through our body. Right.
So there's a neurophysiologyinvolved, a biochemistry, but
what happens in our experiences,we feel it in our bodies, right?
And so paying attention to thatmoment, and helping people to
then take a meditative practice,outside of that distinct, say,
(40:37):
morning and evening meditativetime, which is kind of the main
form I focus on teaching, habitin the morning, extended through
your day, again in the evening,prepares you for your sleep and
dream state, and then repeat.
But the idea is that, listeningto that, or paying attention to
how a stress comes through thebody is so important in creating
(41:00):
mental wellness, what usuallyhappens in the mix of that
subconscious conscious mind playand busyness of life is that a
stress comes, and people ignoreit, right. Now, if you multiply
that to, you know, many times tomany months to year, many years
(41:21):
you can see how important youknow, that's one of the reasons
our relationship to stress is soimportant, we have to better
understand how to do that. Andfor me, this the music
meditation practice is one wayto do that. And so embeingment
kind of you know, wants to speakto that whole aspect.
(41:50):
Entrainment is really afascinating physical law of the
universe. You know, it wasdiscovered by I think Christian
Hugens a Dutch scientist, wherehe had these two pendulum
clocks, you know, far away fromeach other, and he brought them
close together, and he noticedthey started to tick tock, tick,
they started to tick tocktogether, he moved them apart,
(42:11):
and they they went independentagain. But this also happens,
you know, in other areas oflife, in biological, not just
mechanical, but biological andsocial. You know, for example,
if if many women are livingtogether, their menstrual cycles
will get on the same cycle,they'll they'll start to have
(42:35):
their period on the same time.
Now, if one person is taking adrug or say birth control,
there's something that would bea stronger rhythmic cycle that
would keep that person out of,you know, that would be an
outlier, but the rest of thegroup would be, you know, on the
same cycle, it's fascinating.
Another example I like is, youknow, if a if a newborn has a, a
(43:00):
weak heart, instead of doingsomething, you know, invasive,
the first line of action, ifappropriate for that infant with
a weak heart is to put it besideanother newborn with a strong
heart. And then that heart willslowly entrain or synchronize to
that stronger, rhythmic pulse.
So it's, you know, it's clearhow deeply related entrainment
(43:22):
as a physical phenomenon isconnected to frequency,
vibration, music, rhythm, right.
All of those things that arecomponents of aspects of music
and sound.
Now, when we think about musicbeing a vehicle of meaning, and
(43:43):
being able to use theentrainment properties, of
music, to bring things intosynchrony, or balance, or unity,
I think a lot of exciting thingscan happen. And I think
intuitively happens, we oftenput certain music on to entrain
(44:04):
to that music, both physically,rhythmically, but also mentally,
emotionally, spiritually. And soI tried to take that idea of,
you know, physical entrainment,it's a it's a law of the
universe. I tried to use thatthen as a metaphor, I suppose.
For more of a spiritual ormental entrainment.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (44:30):
Toward the end of his text, Coen speaks
of war as a kind ofdisequilibrium and imbalance.
After the fall of the SovietUnion, Tajikistan fell into a
civil war. Coen's contactSamandar spoke of war is a time
of confusion, fear, and a timewhen people became monsters.
(44:51):
Samandar and his friends leanedinto instruments, embracing the
Falak and Maddoh quote, musicwas a personal healer, protector
and preserver of their ownhumanity and sanity. The music
gave a physical manifestation tothe opposite of war, namely, the
virtues of love, compassion,peace, fellowship, and unity.
Benjamin Koen (45:20):
So the music meditative practice helps us to
become aware, right, just likethose signals coming through the
body, if we ignore those stresssignals, they become stronger,
they turn into other things. Butif we are in more of a state of
awareness, self awareness, whenwe get that signal through the
body, right, that would be likea little, let's say, shot in the
(45:43):
War Within, I could be aware ofthat, pay attention to it and
then participate in my emotion,biochemistry, belief,
understanding view, right, andthen I can actually shift it. So
I think that's the same on acollective level, no matter
where we are. We, as humanbeings need music, meditation
(46:10):
experiences daily, I think,because no matter how the world
is raging and going on with allof the, the wonders and
tragedies. We need that as humanbeings, right. And I think that
impacts not just the individual,but the world. So I kind of
(46:31):
think the more the better, youknow, the more we can, we can
do, the better, of course,without making it dogmatic or,
you know, suffering from thesame problems that one would be
trying to heal through ameditative process.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (46:51):
Yeah, I think I think one of the great
harms of COVID is that I, I havesensed that so many of us are
just looping in our brains, andwe are moving more and more into
our minds as we become less andless embodied, I think, and
that's been a harm that I'venoticed, especially as we kind
of loop on things that comeacross email and such that there
(47:15):
is a restorative fact in kind ofmoving back into a sense of
centeredness.
Benjamin Koen (47:20):
100%, because you know, what happens when people
are going through that loop. AndI had a little of that
experience in that 21 dayquarantine in the tiny little
hotel. If we aren't doing somepractice, to nutrify our mind
and heart our being, in otherwords, if we're not doing a
(47:42):
meditative practice. There'snothing else to be aware of,
other than all of theinformation from media or from
whatever that's coming in. So ifpeople aren't doing anything to
engage their awareness, theirconsciousness, their beingness,
(48:05):
right, then the only thing thebrain can do is cycle that the
information that it has, youknow, so we have to give it the,
the focus that we want. And thiscomes back to that initial point
about music being a vehicle ofmeaning. So using musical
(48:28):
meaning in meditation or asmeditation. And here's the
beautiful part, you can assignyour own meaning to music,
right? The the default positionthat you know, this music means
that or the meaning that existsin music is just because you
(48:50):
know, repetition that's the waywe we have a notion about what
something means. But we cancreate sounds music with our
voice even just long tones, youknow, which people that are not
musicians or are it's sopleasing for people to use their
voice, it's like atransformative thing when
(49:10):
they're just making a loud, along you know, gentle hum or
vowel sound. But then usingunfamiliar music, and then
assigning the meaning you wantto that music through a process
of repetition, letting thatcoupling happen. And then that
music carries that meaning intoa person. So if we're not doing
things that give more, you know,health building, and exciting
(49:36):
and fun and beautiful andchallenging content into our
minds, then it's just gonnacycle a bunch of rubbish, you
know, so it's, it's fun, youknow, I think for me, the whole
thing becomes very fun when yourealize that it's, it's a
creative process. And so theterrain of one's consciousness
(49:59):
is just unlimited, so it's it'sreally getting to know a whole
new realm within oneself. Andthat can be scary sometimes, you
know, but it's neverthelessimportant.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (50:18):
May we find the space to exit the loops
of the here and now, making roomfor alternate spaces to reframe
our being and our relations. Maythe step back, step out of time,
and bring us a step towardhealing and more meaningful and
compassionate relation. Thanksto Dr. Benjamin Coen for his
(50:42):
time, expertise and the generoususe of audio files from his
archive. His book, Beyond theRoof of the World Music prayer
and healing in the PamirMountains is published by Oxford
University Press. Other books,videos and articles referenced
in this podcast can be found onour website. If you enjoy this
(51:06):
podcast, I encourage you toleave a review on Apple podcasts
such that others may find thisspace. Thank you so much for the
generosity of your time inleaving your review.
This is the music andpeacebuilding podcast hosted by
(51:27):
Kevin Shorner-Johnson. AtElizabethtown College, we host a
master of music education withan emphasis in peacebuilding.
thinking deeply we reclaim spacefor connection and care. Join us
at music peacebuilding.com
That's one of the things I love is is
understanding deeply within aculture or within a one person
culture. I like to call it howthese things work. You know,
what are people's experience,and discern ways that can be
taught and shared with otherpeople so they can also benefit
(00:20):
from it.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (00:21):
You're listening to season three of the
music and peacebuilding podcast,a professional development
network at musicpeacebuilding.com Exploring
intersections of peacebuilding,sacredness, community,
creativity and imagination.
Through research and story. Dr.
Benjamin D Coen is aninternational leader in the
(00:43):
research, practice performanceand teaching of music,
meditation, improvisation,healing, health and wellness.
His scholarship includes twogroundbreaking books with Oxford
University Press, the OxfordHandbook of medical
ethnomusicology, and beyond theRoof of the World, music prayer
(01:03):
and healing in the PamirMountains. As a critically
acclaimed jazz world musicianand improviser on tenor and
soprano, saxophones, worldflutes and drums and
didgeridoos. And as a composerand recording artist, Dr. Coen's
music and performances haveappeared on a number of
recordings, in film, televisionand on the web. This podcast is
(01:29):
a rich and complex conversation.
Throughout this conversation, Iinvite you to sit with a central
theme that of the power ofmoving into alternate space time
to gain new perspectives andreorganize our being. In the
rush of the day to day, many ofus often lose our perspectives
and cause harm with our reducedvisibility. What happens when we
(01:50):
pause to open new frames? Whathappens when we enter new senses
of time beyond the demands ofthe here and now? How do we move
from imbalance to balance?
Because of the nine or 10Internet disruptions between
Pennsylvania and Hong Kong, thisinterview has been edited to
(02:14):
improve flow and cohesiveness.
So in your space of medicalethnomusicology, I sense that
there's a deep challenge to thedangerous limitations. That's
your quote, of the exclusivereliance on scientific healing.
And if I read your quote, yousay, there's a desperate need
(02:34):
for individual and societalhealing far beyond the facade of
the body and the materialdimension of life, allowing
transformations in ways thatrecognize and support unity and
diversity, foster a greaterrealization of the oneness of
humanity, and create wholeness.
For me, there's a servicecentered impetus underlying my
interest, which arises from whatI see as foundational to any
(02:57):
scholarly endeavor. Could youtalk about the service centered
impetus that you're feeling andhow you are moving into medical
ethnomusicology that movesbeyond the facade of the body?
Benjamin Koen (03:12):
So, you know, at the time of, of writing, that, I
was spending a lot of thoughtfultime and a lot of different
areas of research literature.
You know, there were somemovements, I would say, within
certain schools of cognitivescience that were, you know,
part of my, my graduate studies,that there was this debate
(03:34):
about, you know, kind of thatancient debate about the
material and intangible ortranscendent part of life, not
necessarily science andreligion, that's, you know, kind
of the older version of it, butI wanted to strike some balance,
and I'm not sure I did in thatbook, but maybe in subsequent
writing, strike a balancebetween... or not even between
(03:55):
but but take a, strike a balanceby taking a holistic view at the
topics I was interested in. Andso, those topics dealt with, you
know, music, the mind,consciousness, and meditation,
you know, as an area of inquiry,and of applied practice that
(04:20):
could really help people. So,you know, when you deal with
music, you immediately are takeninto not only kind of the vast
complexity of how music andsound and meaning, connect to
and effect change within thecomplex that is a human being.
(04:41):
But those experiences are sooften transcendent, spiritual,
somehow, there's something elsethere something intangible that
seems to be not only part andparcel of music, but That thing
that really attracts us, ashuman beings. And I think it's
(05:04):
that area where the meaninglives where that that
transcendent experience lies,however, we want to want to call
it maybe beyond the facade ofthe body was was too strong. But
that area, and especially thatexperience of transcendence is
so central to musics, potentialefficacy, when we start thinking
(05:28):
about healing, health and wellbeing.
One of the main ideas was toapproach this, this space in
this area to build up theknowledge so that it could
(05:50):
actually be applied and helpmore people, because so many of
the things that people aresuffering with, can be if not
fully treated and cured, atleast be supportive of health
and well being, and quality oflife. Because they deal with
that interaction of the mind,belief, and, you know,
(06:12):
lifestyle. So that's become, youknow, a really important focus,
and, most recently, trying, justtrying to help people bring the
body back into focus within thatholistic frame. So really not
denying any part, you know, butreally building this, the way I
(06:33):
think about it is through thisfive factor model of the body,
mind, spirit, emotions andrelationships, or, you know, in
the scientific lingo, the biopsycho social, emotional and
spiritual, transcendent. Sothat's been my focus of late,
you know, taking it further intothe realm of actually teaching
music, meditation practices forpeople's health and well being.
(06:55):
And that's been especiallyimportant these last couple
years with the pandemic, forsure.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (07:00):
I pivoted to ask Cohen about spirituality,
because spirituality andunderstandings of what the
spiritual is, are at the heartof understanding Maddoh. Cohen
notes that spirituality orsomething that is intangible,
transcendent, or elusive, has afoundational role in well being.
Benjamin Koen (07:24):
When we use spiritual as a parameter, to
speak about something elusive,or intangible, or otherwise, we
can't explain, but it plays suchan important role, not only in
our lives, but in our ability tomove from one state of being to
another. So from like anillness, or ill structured
(07:45):
profile into one of health andwellness and hopefully,
eventually, vitality. And thatprocess of moving from one state
to another is called Healing,right? It's a kind of
transformation. Andincidentally, that's where the
music meditation practice thatI've been working with, and
using in my research for so manyyears, and teaching people to
(08:08):
use in their own health andwellness practices. It has it
started off as a process ofhealing. But as I continued to
use it in my own life, and teachit and research it and look at
it in different contexts, thisdynamic of music and meditation,
(08:28):
I realized it could be used forany goal. In other words,
healing itself is a process thatmoves from one state to another,
it gets to a desired outcome,right, which is a state of
health and wellness andhopefully more, vitality, human
flourishing and so forth. Butthat movement, from one state to
another as a kind oftransformation, I thought, well,
(08:50):
any goal achievement is a kindof transformation, and how could
this process of music meditationplay into goal achievement,
whether it was you know, appliedin an educational setting, or in
a business setting, you know, orany kind of consultative
setting, right? So, that's beena big part of my most recent
(09:15):
thinking and use of the musicmeditation process.
But getting back to the idea ofspirituality and healing. I've
spent my life around peoplebecause both of my parents were
in medicine, and then being ableto travel extensively, and, and
(09:41):
then do research in this field.
I've been really fortunate totalk with lots of people going
through all kinds of illness andhealing processes. And there is
this sense of insight we cansay. Sense of knowing that
people often have when they cankind of shut off areas of their
(10:04):
brain, you know, kind of tweakthe story that's running on the
subconscious record of the mind,and get into a place of the
meditative mind, where they canhave insight about what has led
to or caused the state thatthey're in, then find some way.
(10:24):
And this is where, you know, aguided process is usually very
helpful, find some way to helpheal that to transform that.
Now, that whole dynamic, I wouldsay, you know, it falls into,
you know, certainly apsychological frame. But often
people describe it in a veryspiritual frame, you know, what
(10:47):
I mean? And so, understandingwhat spiritual means for people
with respect to healing is oftena very, you know, personal
thing. And so, therein lies oneof the struggles of, of doing a
research that uses, you know,spirituality or the spiritual as
a domain of measure, right,because it, it has meaning
(11:10):
within a culture, broadlyspeaking, but even more
importantly, within theindividual, you know, cultural
landscape of a human being. Sothere's something I think that
music itself is, I would say,inherently spiritual, it has
this stuff of itself, that is,in part because of the way the
(11:37):
neurophysiology of hearing worksin human beings. And that
through the process oflistening, and the frequency is
coming in through the the ear,hitting the eardrum, going
through the Basler membrane,and, you know, having
neurotransmitters released incorrelation to the kind of
(11:58):
sound, music, that's being takenin, and most importantly, the
meaning that that music or soundcarries, facilitates this neuro
physiological process, which isbeautiful and fascinating. That
is the foundation of ourexperience, our consciousness,
(12:22):
our biochemistry, our emotionalself, and then how we then act
and behave and move through lifeon a daily basis.
You know, there, for somepeople, certainly, the spiritual
(12:43):
domain is, you know, squarelywithin a religious framework and
a belief system or philosophy orideology. And for some, it's not
right. The thing that I findfascinating and beautiful and
empowering about the whole thingis this relationship between
music and the mind, music andmeditation, and music itself is
(13:07):
a meditation, meditation oftenitself takes a, you know,
specialized sounded or musicalform. Sometimes they're one of
the same. But music, meditation,the mind and healing, you know,
that these things work togetherin a very fascinating way. And
(13:28):
all three of them music,meditation and healing, have
some deep connection to our youknow conceptualization of and
experience of the spiritual orthe transcendent. A lot of that
understanding comes out in youknow, deep ethnographic research
(13:49):
of understanding how peopleexpress their experience of
healing, music and meditation.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (13:58):
I turned our conversation to ask about
the particular spiritualitywithin this mountainous region
of Tajikistan and how it informsthe practice of Maddoh
Benjamin Koen (14:11):
you know, in in the poetry and the the
spiritual, mystical traditionsin the Persian speaking world.
Okay. And of course, you know,Sufism is probably the the most
well known mystical tradition inthe Middle East and from The
Persian speaking world,primarily, at least as its
(14:34):
origin, because of the toweringfigure of Maulana Jalaluddin
Rumi, the poet and mystic, butthere are so many others from
that world of wonderful,incredible poetry. So, you know,
including the figures of HafizSadie host row and in that world
(15:00):
of poetry, there are somerecurrent and beautiful
metaphors for human progress andfor human growth and
development. There are severalcommon and beautiful metaphors
that talk about this humandevelopment and flourishing and
(15:23):
it's mostly framed in aspiritual way, and between the
lover and the beloved, you know,so one of those is this idea of
the moth being so attracted soin love with and really
entranced by a flame, it's it'slove is so powerful that it
(15:44):
can't stop itself from gettingso close to the flame or even at
its singes, its wings if notbeing totally consumed. And the
idea there of being consumed isnot about death, or dying of the
physical self, or anything darkor tragic, but really, the dying
(16:05):
of the lower self, or the nafs,in that context of Tajikistan,
you know, there's this aspect ofunity of oneness again, that
happens when one is entrancedwith that, that fire of love,
and the idea, you know, within aperson's self, bringing together
(16:30):
all aspects of oneself, right.
And so, a direct relationshipkind of on the practical side,
if I can just kind of jump backand forth. One of the powerful
things that music does not thatit is only a meditation, not
that it is a vehicle of meaningthese two are so important, but
also music functions as a bridgebetween the subconscious and
(16:53):
conscious mind. And it does thatin part because of that
neurophysiological process of,of hearing, and the meaning that
it carries. And so when we lookat, you know, studies of music
and the brain, music andcognition and brain activity,
and so forth, we see that musicis one of these rare things that
(17:16):
it's not like the old idea ofright brain, left brain or more
creativity on this side. Andthat's, and of course, there are
certain centers that haveimportant roles to play. But
music is one of those thingsthat really holistically
connects with and effects,activity and change in the
(17:37):
brain.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (17:42):
In his article for ethos, Cohen begins
by noting that the spiritualenergy of Baraka is central to
understanding healing throughMaddoh. Baraka is a generative,
lifeforce and spiritual energyfrom God that is associated with
prophets and mystical figures,and particularly within special
(18:03):
places, like the majesticmountains of the Pamir region.
Within the spiritual traditionsof this place, the self is
divided between a higher and alower self, an individual
detaches from the worldly, lowerself or the nafs, to move toward
the true and higher self. Thishigher self is comprised of
(18:27):
Aql-tan-ruh, or the three partwhole of the mind, body spirit.
The spiritual experience ofMaddoh brings about a kind of
psychological flexibility, or aspace that allows new
perspectives. A participantwithin Coen's writing reflects
that in Maddoh quote, my bodyrelaxes, I become empty but full
(18:51):
of spirit (Ruh) and love. Ileave my body and forget. I'm in
another atmosphere, anotherworld. I think it is a kind of
Mercy (rahmat), music is a mercyand blessing. It is like
traveling far away and I can seethings spiritual things. I
(19:12):
change when I sing and pray andeverything can change then to be
good, healed. It is a mysticalfeeling. A transcendent state
that is moving like water, freeand I fly. I am always better
and refreshed afterwards. Ibecome new if the music and
(19:32):
prayer is true." Listen to thiscoming excerpt provided by Dr.
Coen, where performers preparespiritual space through the
opening notes at the Munajatsection of Maddoh. This first
section creates a feeling ofdetachment or disengagement as
(19:53):
the participant seeks todisengage from the worldly or
lower self, the Nafs.
Unknown (20:18):
[Music excerpt - Munajat]
Benjamin Koen (20:51):
but there's tons of, tons of metaphors. The
nightingale is another one, youknow that you mentioned. And
part of that is the entrancingmelody of the nightingale that
one harkens to, you know, thewhole idea of listening is also
at the heart of this mysticalpoetic tradition. You know, the
very beginning of Molana Rumi'sMasnavi is a great poetic work
(21:21):
of 1000s of rhyming couplets. Itstarts off saying, listen to the
Ney, you know, hearken to thesound of the Ney of the Persian
reed flute, as it bewales, itsplight, having been separated
(21:44):
from its homeland. And, youknow, this is another metaphor
about returning to the Beloved,you know, returning to one
source. So, you know, if we takeit out of that language, and we
think about becoming wholebecoming one again, right,
finding peace and tranquility.
And from that space, one can seeclearly, you know, one can feel
(22:05):
more clearly and can understandthings more clearly. So, I
think, in all endeavors, youknow, tapping into that
meditative state is one of thethings that we need to do, as a,
as a humanity, you know, it's asimportant as, or at least, you
know, immediately after waterand food and shelter, and love
(22:30):
and sex and music or, you know,meditation, it's, and I would
say, maybe it's one of thosebasic essential states that we
need.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (22:48):
Within Persian speaking cultures,
poetry is quote, placed at thecenter rather than the fringes
of life. Coen notes that therhythm, intonation and emotional
content of poetry are thefoundation upon which the
mystical, classical and folktraditions of music lie. Drawing
(23:09):
upon that, we embrace sectionsfrom the introduction of Rumi's
Masnavi, in which he uses themetaphor of the reed and the
reed flute, to speak toconnectedness, longing,
consolation and purity. It isworth noting the special place
that Rumi holds in Tajikistan assomeone who was born in the
(23:30):
space between Afghanistan andTajikistan, In the opening of
Rumi's Masnavi, he speaks of thequote, reed flutes deep lament,
to note the agony of separationand longing for return. His
language speaks of unchainingand releasing from the hold of
(23:51):
greed and the here and nowspeaking to the elegance of the
Ney or the flute, he writes,quote, loves fire is what makes
every Reed Flute pine lovesfervor thus lends potency to
wine, the reed consoles, thoseforced to be apart, it's notes
(24:11):
will lift the veil upon yourheart.
I think I was going to reflectto you just how much the poetic
traditions draw me to the Sufitradition when I had a chance to
go to Azerbaijan. You know, forme, it was it was kind of
leaning into that love that Ihad for Mugham and the way in
(24:35):
which they lean into the poetictraditions that I just so
admire.
Benjamin Koen (24:39):
Yeah, you know, I think it's poetry. And if we
extend it into, you know, somany of the poetic traditions
there, they just want to besung. You know, there's a thing
called declame, which is like adeck, declaring it's a way of
saving upon in Persian, but youknow, so many of them, they just
(25:03):
they start to build and they andthis happens with so many
traditions, they just want to besung you know, so that bridge
between poem into song, youknow, into music is really
powerful. But I think we've lostthat in a lot of places in the
world, you know. So many friendsthat speak Persian, especially
(25:26):
the older generations, alwayshave a poem on the tip of their
tongue to contribute to anysituation, you know, to make a
comment to support, to breakdown.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (25:37):
So can you take us into this form of
Maddoh and, and what this formlooks like and how it integrates
prayer, meditation, poetryaroused emotional states, so
introduce us to this genre andthis form, if you would,
Benjamin Koen (25:52):
sure. So, Maddoh in the Pamir Mountains of
Tajikistan is the one of, if notthe preeminent devotional music
among the Pamiri people, themajority of whom are Ismaili
Muslims, which follows a verymystic tradition similar to
Sufism, different, but for thosepeople that that aren't familiar
(26:15):
with it, that's a good kind ofstarting point of understanding.
I've had many Tajik friends say,you know, thank you for making
that clarification. And then hesay, yeah, thank you for making
that comparison. So Maddoh, youknow, it's funny, you know,
(26:36):
playing the language game ofcommunicating about all these
things. Think of it like this,Maddoh is a devotional music
genre. It IS a corpus of poems.
So it is a form of poetry. It ISa meditative and spiritual
practice. And it's a healingpractice. And it's a practice of
worship. So it is all thosethings together. On the musical
(27:00):
side, you know, it, it has avery unique structure in
Tajikistan. And I can just say,incidentally, that you can find
Maddoh and pronounced indifferent ways, you know,
throughout the Middle East. Itcan have different forms of
expression, you know, it cansound different in different
(27:23):
places. It's fascinating, theMaddoh in the Pamir Mountains of
Tajikistan, you know, has asimilar form all over the region
there, it has a three part form.
And those three sections arecalled munâjât, Haidari and
setâyesh. And these threesections, they start kind of in
(27:47):
a low energy reflective, youknow, moving out of silent state
where people come into the mainroom where they perform Maddoh
called the maddâhkhâne. Andpeople collect themselves, you
know, prepare themselves for theexperience, they're going to
have this mystical devotional,in some cases healing
(28:11):
experience. And, you know, thegenre is used, like I said, for
worship, but also education. Sofor many things, it's not that
everyone always comes to aMaddoh ceremony for healing. But
you know, in the broaderspiritual sense of things, it is
looked at as something that isgood for health and well being
(28:36):
AND has a healing function justinherent within it. So it starts
off from that place ofreflection meditation, getting
ready to perform, and the themain singer, the Maddoh Khan,
who's reciting these poems andplaying the pulmonary rebab a
long necked lute and the musicitself is, is how to describe
(29:00):
it? I can just hear it in myhead right now so much it's you
know, very I could say almostStark in a way you know, some of
my Tajik friends that perform itsay it's primal almost you know,
there's something fundamental.
Unknown (29:37):
[Music Excerpt - Maddoh]
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (29:55):
As described in this podcast,
Maddoh is constructed of threesections. The Munajat Haidari,
and the setâyesh. The secondsection of muddle is a, quote,
contemplation of options, as thelistener encounters stories with
moral conflicts that illustratepotential outcomes. Listen now
(30:17):
to an excerpt of Haidari.
Benjamin Koen (30:47):
Many have said that because of the vast
mountain range that let many ofthe Pamir traditions develop
with less outside influence.
That's one reason that it kindof has taken this form. So when
I refer to it this way, it'sbeautiful and powerful. And but
you know, there's, there's a lotof space that one can, can hear
(31:11):
within that genre. And, youknow, I'm thinking rhythmically
for a second, there's a kind ofopen and driving aspect to the
rhythm that is unique to the, tothe region. So it moves from
this first very kind ofmeditative state of munâjât,
(31:32):
which is another word for a kindof prayer supplication into
Haidari, which is more stories,and that's where a drum enters.
And that could be you know, 123of these Rubabs, and then maybe
123 daf or doire frame drumswith rings on the inside, they
(31:53):
start to play in a strong duplemeter Goon Gaga, Goon Gaga.
And then it goes into this thirdpart called setâyesh, which goes
into a new rhythm that's verydriving. And one of the things
in my research, it came out thatthis rhythm is actually
(32:15):
structured over a five meterperiod, right, so it's an a
meter of five. And it has theseeight pulses that kind of
function as a as a three meter,like two versions of 123123. And
then one, two, making eightpulses. But kind of two groups
of three, and then one shortenedone. And then on the other side,
(32:40):
there's this kind of evenlyspaced five meter that follows
along the poetic structure. Soyou have this interesting kind
of shortened two against three,rhythm that itself is quite
flexible, open, there's a lot ofbreath, you know, in that
rhythmic structure, it's quitefascinating. The reason that's
(33:05):
interesting is because the thepeople themselves there identify
themselves with the symbol offive in many aspects of life.
And the religious beliefpractices, the natural and built
environment, the rivers, themaddâhkhâne, like five, five
shows up many, many times whatthey self identify as. So it's
(33:30):
quite fascinating that withinthe most, one of the most
important genres of music, andat the height of that music, the
state that is helping peoplemove from that previous state,
or let's say if we're looking athealing an illness state into
one of health and well being anda big part of that journey is
(33:55):
understood spiritually, viewedand experienced spiritually, but
also musically, it, this rhythmand the poems and the energy
also propel a person into thatstate that they they want to get
to
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (34:10):
the final stage, the setâyesh, becomes the
most intense where conflict isresolved, and participants are
invited into a new state of mindand being. This is the work of
reframing with rhythmic lilt, amove into the liminal space
beyond the here and now tocontemplate with the clarity of
alternate organizations of time[excerpt of setâyesh].
(35:19):
Yeah I wondered if you couldkind of paint a picture for us.
So one of the things I foundfascinating your book is that
you talked about this, this rolethat you took on sometimes as
being the outsider and theguest. And how the outsider and
guest in this particular cultureis, is seen as maybe a source of
healing, could you kind of painta picture for us about what
(35:42):
Maddoh looks like in the spaceof healing and your own
experience,
Benjamin Koen (35:46):
it looks very much like a meditative community
experience. Okay, so you havemaybe three to five, six
musicians. But in themaddâhkhâne, the main room of
the primary traditional home,which is upheld by five
structural, but also symbolicpillars. People sit around the,
(36:08):
you know, edges, the walls ofthe room, sometimes lean against
the pillars, and are in areflective state, you know,
there's not a lot of movement,in Maddoh, mostly, you know,
there's not dance involved inMaddoh, there is some movement,
you know, mostly from themusicians, or people may be
(36:32):
swaying a little bit back andforth. But it looks like people,
you know, sitting around a roomkind of in their space, but also
connected. And there's a pointwithin Maddoh, where the
community actually cry out oneof the words and the word in
Persian is a, and in Arabic, itwould be Yah, but it's basically
(36:58):
like a supplication saying, oh,like saying, Oh God, right. And
so after the singing of thesepoetic verses, these spiritual
lines, and the music coming up,and the whole, let's say, a few
phrases of the poetry, or a kindof verse, if you will, ends,
(37:18):
then everyone sings this "a"together. And it's quite, quite
powerful. So there's, there's avery powerful musical, spiritual
energy from the music. Butthere's also a very calm,
tranquil kind of state ofpeople. Being in that self
reflection and just state ofimmersion in that experience.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (37:44):
The movement from a calmness to a
heightened state of arousal is akey part of the experience,
participants expressed a feelingof quote, nonstop forward
motion, upward movement, arising sensation, energy, or a
movement from heaviness tolightness. Coen notes that one
(38:07):
participant expressed feelingphysically lighter, during the
setâyesh, that transferred intoa feeling of floating with a
participant experienced thespiritual or baten. Embeingment
is a word that Coen uses todescribe when a new
consciousness is brought aboutwithin the body. He states
(38:31):
embeingment, then is a processof absorbing positive energy.
And disembeingment the absenceof that energy, just as darkness
is the absence of light. Thatis, darkness has no energy of
its own, it is dependent on theabsence of light. New
(38:51):
perspectives and flexible changemay be at the heart of movements
from illness to wellbeing, aswell as from rigid dichotomies
to open perspectives andpossibilities of peace.
Benjamin Koen (39:06):
So the idea with embeingment is that, you know,
we have an experience, and thatforms part of our, of all of
these aspects, you know, notjust the body. And then the
important part of that is that,you know, when we go through
that experience of hearingsomething, focusing on
something, getting into thatmeditative state, letting it
(39:29):
trickle down, letting it beabsorbed, and letting ourselves
embody it, it becomes part ofus, you know, wholly, it becomes
part of the way we view theworld, we think about ourselves
and others. So, I just wanted tomake it a little more than just
the body but also what what hasbeen most important recently, is
(39:51):
helping people see how importantthe body is, as a channel of, a
barometer of our state of being,right. So when people have
stress, which, if ignored, leadsto bigger stress, which, if
ignored leads to anxiety andthen depression. So the first
(40:14):
experience of stress, you know,comes through our body. Right.
So there's a neurophysiologyinvolved, a biochemistry, but
what happens in our experiences,we feel it in our bodies, right?
And so paying attention to thatmoment, and helping people to
then take a meditative practice,outside of that distinct, say,
(40:37):
morning and evening meditativetime, which is kind of the main
form I focus on teaching, habitin the morning, extended through
your day, again in the evening,prepares you for your sleep and
dream state, and then repeat.
But the idea is that, listeningto that, or paying attention to
how a stress comes through thebody is so important in creating
(41:00):
mental wellness, what usuallyhappens in the mix of that
subconscious conscious mind playand busyness of life is that a
stress comes, and people ignoreit, right. Now, if you multiply
that to, you know, many times tomany months to year, many years
(41:21):
you can see how important youknow, that's one of the reasons
our relationship to stress is soimportant, we have to better
understand how to do that. Andfor me, this the music
meditation practice is one wayto do that. And so embeingment
kind of you know, wants to speakto that whole aspect.
(41:50):
Entrainment is really afascinating physical law of the
universe. You know, it wasdiscovered by I think Christian
Hugens a Dutch scientist, wherehe had these two pendulum
clocks, you know, far away fromeach other, and he brought them
close together, and he noticedthey started to tick tock, tick,
they started to tick tocktogether, he moved them apart,
(42:11):
and they they went independentagain. But this also happens,
you know, in other areas oflife, in biological, not just
mechanical, but biological andsocial. You know, for example,
if if many women are livingtogether, their menstrual cycles
will get on the same cycle,they'll they'll start to have
(42:35):
their period on the same time.
Now, if one person is taking adrug or say birth control,
there's something that would bea stronger rhythmic cycle that
would keep that person out of,you know, that would be an
outlier, but the rest of thegroup would be, you know, on the
same cycle, it's fascinating.
Another example I like is, youknow, if a if a newborn has a, a
(43:00):
weak heart, instead of doingsomething, you know, invasive,
the first line of action, ifappropriate for that infant with
a weak heart is to put it besideanother newborn with a strong
heart. And then that heart willslowly entrain or synchronize to
that stronger, rhythmic pulse.
So it's, you know, it's clearhow deeply related entrainment
(43:22):
as a physical phenomenon isconnected to frequency,
vibration, music, rhythm, right.
All of those things that arecomponents of aspects of music
and sound.
Now, when we think about musicbeing a vehicle of meaning, and
(43:43):
being able to use theentrainment properties, of
music, to bring things intosynchrony, or balance, or unity,
I think a lot of exciting thingscan happen. And I think
intuitively happens, we oftenput certain music on to entrain
(44:04):
to that music, both physically,rhythmically, but also mentally,
emotionally, spiritually. And soI tried to take that idea of,
you know, physical entrainment,it's a it's a law of the
universe. I tried to use thatthen as a metaphor, I suppose.
For more of a spiritual ormental entrainment.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (44:30):
Toward the end of his text, Coen speaks
of war as a kind ofdisequilibrium and imbalance.
After the fall of the SovietUnion, Tajikistan fell into a
civil war. Coen's contactSamandar spoke of war is a time
of confusion, fear, and a timewhen people became monsters.
(44:51):
Samandar and his friends leanedinto instruments, embracing the
Falak and Maddoh quote, musicwas a personal healer, protector
and preserver of their ownhumanity and sanity. The music
gave a physical manifestation tothe opposite of war, namely, the
virtues of love, compassion,peace, fellowship, and unity.
Benjamin Koen (45:20):
So the music meditative practice helps us to
become aware, right, just likethose signals coming through the
body, if we ignore those stresssignals, they become stronger,
they turn into other things. Butif we are in more of a state of
awareness, self awareness, whenwe get that signal through the
body, right, that would be likea little, let's say, shot in the
(45:43):
War Within, I could be aware ofthat, pay attention to it and
then participate in my emotion,biochemistry, belief,
understanding view, right, andthen I can actually shift it. So
I think that's the same on acollective level, no matter
where we are. We, as humanbeings need music, meditation
(46:10):
experiences daily, I think,because no matter how the world
is raging and going on with allof the, the wonders and
tragedies. We need that as humanbeings, right. And I think that
impacts not just the individual,but the world. So I kind of
(46:31):
think the more the better, youknow, the more we can, we can
do, the better, of course,without making it dogmatic or,
you know, suffering from thesame problems that one would be
trying to heal through ameditative process.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (46:51):
Yeah, I think I think one of the great
harms of COVID is that I, I havesensed that so many of us are
just looping in our brains, andwe are moving more and more into
our minds as we become less andless embodied, I think, and
that's been a harm that I'venoticed, especially as we kind
of loop on things that comeacross email and such that there
(47:15):
is a restorative fact in kind ofmoving back into a sense of
centeredness.
Benjamin Koen (47:20):
100%, because you know, what happens when people
are going through that loop. AndI had a little of that
experience in that 21 dayquarantine in the tiny little
hotel. If we aren't doing somepractice, to nutrify our mind
and heart our being, in otherwords, if we're not doing a
(47:42):
meditative practice. There'snothing else to be aware of,
other than all of theinformation from media or from
whatever that's coming in. So ifpeople aren't doing anything to
engage their awareness, theirconsciousness, their beingness,
(48:05):
right, then the only thing thebrain can do is cycle that the
information that it has, youknow, so we have to give it the,
the focus that we want. And thiscomes back to that initial point
about music being a vehicle ofmeaning. So using musical
(48:28):
meaning in meditation or asmeditation. And here's the
beautiful part, you can assignyour own meaning to music,
right? The the default positionthat you know, this music means
that or the meaning that existsin music is just because you
(48:50):
know, repetition that's the waywe we have a notion about what
something means. But we cancreate sounds music with our
voice even just long tones, youknow, which people that are not
musicians or are it's sopleasing for people to use their
voice, it's like atransformative thing when
(49:10):
they're just making a loud, along you know, gentle hum or
vowel sound. But then usingunfamiliar music, and then
assigning the meaning you wantto that music through a process
of repetition, letting thatcoupling happen. And then that
music carries that meaning intoa person. So if we're not doing
things that give more, you know,health building, and exciting
(49:36):
and fun and beautiful andchallenging content into our
minds, then it's just gonnacycle a bunch of rubbish, you
know, so it's, it's fun, youknow, I think for me, the whole
thing becomes very fun when yourealize that it's, it's a
creative process. And so theterrain of one's consciousness
(49:59):
is just unlimited, so it's it'sreally getting to know a whole
new realm within oneself. Andthat can be scary sometimes, you
know, but it's neverthelessimportant.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (50:18):
May we find the space to exit the loops
of the here and now, making roomfor alternate spaces to reframe
our being and our relations. Maythe step back, step out of time,
and bring us a step towardhealing and more meaningful and
compassionate relation. Thanksto Dr. Benjamin Coen for his
(50:42):
time, expertise and the generoususe of audio files from his
archive. His book, Beyond theRoof of the World Music prayer
and healing in the PamirMountains is published by Oxford
University Press. Other books,videos and articles referenced
in this podcast can be found onour website. If you enjoy this
(51:06):
podcast, I encourage you toleave a review on Apple podcasts
such that others may find thisspace. Thank you so much for the
generosity of your time inleaving your review.
This is the music andpeacebuilding podcast hosted by
(51:27):
Kevin Shorner-Johnson. AtElizabethtown College, we host a
master of music education withan emphasis in peacebuilding.
thinking deeply we reclaim spacefor connection and care. Join us
at music peacebuilding.com
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