November 8, 2024 • 31 mins
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What does it truly mean to embrace fatherhood in a same-gender relationship amidst the societal norms and challenges? In our latest episode, we sit down with John Joe as he reveals his heartwarming and eye-opening journey of becoming a father through surrogacy. From the emotional highs and lows of preparing for twins to the unexpected hurdles with healthcare providers, John Joe shares his story with candor and humor. His experiences highlight the importance of advocating for equal participation in prenatal appointments and the vital role of respecting and protecting the surrogate throughout the journey.As the conversation unfolds, John Joe takes us through the whimsical but thoughtful process of choosing names for the twins, weaving cultural legacies with future aspirations. Shopping for the babies becomes an adventure filled with societal questions unique to non-traditional families. John Joe also provides valuable insights on fostering a secure and valued family environment for the children amidst potential inquiries about their family structure. With a focus on emotional and social resources, listeners will find practical advice for navigating the joys and challenges of surrogacy.
The episode wraps up with a detailed look at the financial landscape of surrogacy in the UK. John Joe brings attention to the stark differences in costs compared to the US and the lack of NHS support for non-hetero couples. By sharing his personal experiences, John Joe offers a roadmap for others considering this path, complete with expert tips on planning for the future. Join us for an inspiring discussion that not only sheds light on the financial and legal aspects of surrogacy but also celebrates the evolving definition of family.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Hello podcasters and welcome back to part two of a
very special episode where we'retalking to John Joe.
John Joe is in a same-genderedrelationship and he's currently
going through surrogacy and verysoon will become a father.
If you haven't listened to partone, please make sure you
listen to that first.
Otherwise, on with the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Gosh Benji, I feel like I have learned so much
information already.
I feel more educated today thanI did yesterday.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Than ever before in my life, than ever before Do you
?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
know what I think I might ask my boss for a pay rise
.
I've learned new information.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Right, I'm surprised you have a job, me too.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
But Jonjo, so talk us through what's been happening
recently and preparing for thebaby, because you've obviously
gone from wanting to have achild to having two children on
the way, and so what is the nextstep?
So you found out you've gottwins coming.
Have you been shopping?
Have you been going to classes?
What's been going on?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
It's been mental because it goes by so quickly,
like I have this app and ittells you every week how the
baby's growing and what'shappening to them and et cetera,
and it's just magical anddisgusting all at the same time.
But yes, I have been shopping,but I didn't do it for a really
long time because I was reallyworried about all this lot of
superstition around it.
You know the silly things thatI can't help but not do.
(01:41):
Our success rate, for example,was 7%.
We had a 7% chance of thisworking the first time around.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Wow, that's so low.
I thought that'd be higher.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
No, with their age brackets, and we were trying for
two at the same time.
So we did try for two at thesame time.
We put two embryos in and theweirdest thing, the first part
of the journey is you do thepregnancy.
Steph did a pregnancy test.
She actually did a pregnancytest much earlier.
She was like, guys, my boobshurt, so I'm going to go check
(02:10):
and it came through reallystrongly.
So we were really really,really lucky.
We were like over the moon andcelebrating and everything like
that.
But then the first thing youlearn is actually, you think the
babies now are a week old ortwo weeks old or whatever day
that you've just tested on.
No, they're like um, nearly twoand a half, three weeks old by
that point, because when they uhdo the IVF transfer, um, it
(02:31):
goes straight into the lining ofthe womb and naturally that
would take quite a few days.
So you're already further aheadthan you thought you were.
So your time is running out and, as part of the surrogacy
process, you have to, by law,have um counseling, uh
separately with your partner, umand then separate from your
partner, and and so too does thesurrogate um you need wills,
you need life insurance.
Um, you need to sort legaladvice.
(02:53):
Um, you need all of that stuffsorting in advance, and it's the
same for the surrogate.
You have to pay those expenses.
So you have to make surethey've had legal advice and
counseling and and it's right,it's perfectly right, you don't?
You know, you want to protectthe surrogate and make sure that
they're a human.
You don't want to exploit themin any way whatsoever.
Um, so you go about doing that.
And then the superstitionsabout not bringing the pram
(03:14):
inside the house until it's,because every single week, until
you get that solid, you know,you get to the sort of uh, 30
week mark where you can start tosort of rest a bit and you
think right is actually going tohappen now.
Um, you still don't know youknow, it could not happen.
You know so many complicationsand with twins, you know they
can give you um a due date, butactually it can be any time,
(03:37):
sort of six weeks before that,because they don't let twins
grow as big as children when youjust have one, because there's
not enough room, etc.
And so they get them out a bitearlier.
Um, but shopping, yes, and it'sbeen lovely.
Um, my mother-in-law and mymother just have been desperate
to go shopping with me and, um,I wouldn't let them because I
was too superstitious, I waslike it's too early, it's too
early, hold on.
(03:57):
And then when I finally said yes, oh my, they go over like, oh,
we've got teddy bears, we've gotthis and we've got blankets and
cots and grip, but it is soexpensive and a second american
express card literally exactlythat yeah, um, but they were so
excited to do it so it's beenreally, really exciting and,
like I said, we're we've beentold it can be any point from
(04:18):
now that they're due, so we'rehaving to keep, uh, within an
hour of eastbourne, which iswhere my sister-in-law lives, um
, just so that we're ready to go.
But you know, we've hadappointments and stuff like that
with the doctors and theyweren't ready for it.
They weren't ready for, um, asame-sex couple coming in.
They didn't know what theprotocol was or what to say or
what not say.
It's.
It's been a journey in thatrespect as well.
(04:39):
You know, midwife saying, well,I remember we're having one of
the first scans and, um, weweren't both allowed in the room
with with steph.
They only wanted one of us inthe room.
We were like, well, we're both,we're both going to be the dads
we need to be, need to be inthe room, and we had to fight
that.
And you know that's why we'vehad to check with the hospital
now and make sure thateverything's okay and
everything's set up with abirthing plan, that we've
(05:01):
totally followed Steph's lead aswell with that.
You know, they asked thesurrogate if they want to have
time with the children beforethey hand them over and things
like that.
But there's so many things we'velearned.
For example, you know, just ingeneral, we're entitled to
paternity leave and we're alsoentitled to adoption leave.
Adoption leave is great.
It doesn't sound great becauseit's got the word adoption in it
and they just need to updatethat title, which hopefully they
(05:23):
will, but it's.
It's something like 29 weeks umof 90 pay, or also.
It's really good.
It's like a really good deal.
But what we're not entitled tois and it's actually happened
with my husband, um, but he'smanaged to sort it, since, as a
man, you can't just go into ajob tomorrow and then say, oh,
by the way, I'm having babies ina month's time.
Uh, you won't be allowed thetime off because you won't have
(05:45):
been there.
It's a government rule.
You won't have been there longenough to be entitled to it.
So my husband was like soyou're telling me I'm going to
have kids on Thursday and youwant me back in on Friday?
And he managed to sort it allout.
But yeah, whereas if you're awoman having a child, obviously
you've got to heal, etc.
Uh, you can start a jobtomorrow and then go and return
to leave the next day so justfor my brain, is that because
(06:07):
it's uh male versus female,right?
yeah, yeah it's not quite.
It's not where it should be.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, at the minute we're not best protected, sure,
but that is changing and they'relooking into making changes and
things like that and just goingback to the story you said
about um only allowing one ofthe fathers in the room, and
since then that's changed.
Is that because that hospitalor those people didn't know any
different and so they're alsolearning about the evolve of
other types of peritone?
(06:33):
That isn't your heteronormative.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Yeah exactly that.
So they they were like oh, ofcourse that's a silly rule.
We'll change that straight away.
Of course you're both allowedin and yeah, we're very excited
to have that day where we get toput them in the little car
seats and take them out.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
So, going back, you mentioned you're having twins.
Yeah, and you always wanted tohave twins.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
So we tried for twins .
Yeah, we put two embryos in tobegin with.
A lot of clinics won't do itbecause it's such a high risk
and all clinics are measured bytheir success rates.
So for such a high risk and allclinics are measured by their
success rates, so for them theytry to avoid anything too that's
going to lower that rateeffectively, and I know just
because I do watch thekardashians and they actually
did have a really strongsurrogacy story on their last
(07:14):
season the last two seasonsactually which was, I thought,
very interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Um, there are some clinics where you can like you
can choose the gender of thebaby, you can choose the eye
color color you can chooseliterally.
It's like design a baby, yeah,yeah, yeah.
Somebody on the Real Housewivesdid it as well.
They were like I want a boy, Iwant blue eyes.
Literally, you pick things.
Now, it doesn't always happen,but you can request them.
Is that something you were everoffered or did you want it to
be sort of so it's illegal inEngland to, of course, classic
(07:48):
americans, but I do have.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I'm not sure if I can tell the story, but I did have
a very strange moment where wemade our embryos and they take
they, they grow them for 10 daysto see which ones survive.
So we had 10 eggs.
Uh sorry, we had 12 eggs and ofthe 12 eggs, 10 came through,
and that was really great,because it's normally about 40
that that come through.
So already you're alreadylosing 60% of what you've tried
to create Um.
And then they grade them likeAA, bbb, ccc.
(08:10):
Aa is the best Um and it'sthree different categories that
they measure.
I can't remember off the top ofmy head what they are, but the
clinic put in an AAA and a BBB,even though I had more AAs to
use.
And when I why, they just saidjust don't worry, don't worry
about it.
And so I did worry about it yeahI would too, and uh, this is
(08:30):
complete conspiracy now andobviously it's legal to do it
and I'm sure they don't do it.
Um, but I think it's becauseyou know we did mention it would
be the absolute joy better thanwinning the lottery would be to
have a boy and a girl right,and then you either well, the,
the gender of a baby is decidedalmost instantaneously so they
can see it on screen, even ifthey're not allowed to tell you.
(08:52):
Um, but yeah, like you said, inamerica you can go and choose
whatever you want.
But it is also about 250 to 300000 and that's before you
factor in.
You might need to live overthere for nine months because
you need to get your children orchild a passport.
You know how hard it is gettinga passport in England.
You've got to wait for thatprocess and look after the
children over there whilst theydo that, and flights and things
(09:14):
like that, and accommodation andeven the surrogate's expenses.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
So did your wish come true.
Are you expecting a boy andgirl?
I am, I am indeed.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Very, very excited.
Uh, stephanie did the genderreveal for us and my whole
family were there and robbie'swhole family were there, and it
was so magical, it was so lovely.
She, she tricked us royally,she, uh, she got us nine um
balloons that you couldn't seethrough.
And she said, in, there is thegender.
And I said, right, well,there's two.
So if it is a boy and a girl,how's that going to work?
He said, well, the confettiinside will have two different
(09:49):
colors.
Um, so we're very excited aboutthat.
We've got the whole familyaround, we're popping all the
balloons, we're getting roundsof applause and cheers and
everyone's like, ah, we got toballoon eight pop that one white
confetti came out again for theeighth time and we were like,
what, what happened?
What happened?
And then she, uh, she lent herhead around the corner, said you
need to call your fur babiesinto the room.
So I've got two dogs, twocockapoos.
(10:11):
So I screamed at the top of mylungs ted, woodford, come, come.
They ran in pink balloon camein first, with woodford on
carrying it for us.
It was tied to his um collarand the blue one came just
afterwards.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
So we were very, very excited, very excited, yeah,
there were lots of tears.
Benji, I feel really broody.
Are you sure you don't want tohave a baby with me?
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I am really sure that I don't.
I've never been more sure ofanything in my life than having
you to co-parent me like havingthree kids, my goodness yeah,
literally, literally, that goshum, so you found out you were
having twins.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
You found a boy and a girl.
Have you spoke about baby names?
Obviously you don't have totell us, but have you had that
conversation?
Oh it is the question on everyfamily members I'm sure it's a
question on our lips as well wehave.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
We thought long and hard about names.
We couldn't decide.
We honestly couldn't decide.
There's so many lovely namesout there and so many have
different meanings.
So I used to be a teacher for along time, so I turned it into
a bit of a teaching game.
How we decided and effectivelywe had 12 cards, 12 pebbles each
, and if we really liked a namewe could put two pebbles on.
It took a pebble from that youcould have used for another card
(11:29):
.
Then it means you like thatname less.
And then I did the same withthe dogs.
I put two bits of cheese onboth of them and, robbie, let
them go at the same time.
They're both and weirdly enough, they both went for the same
names we'd also chosen oh, we'rekeeping them a secret, of
course, because we were askingall the family members about
different names and you askdifferent people about what they
think about different names andyou'll love a name and then
(11:50):
they'll go no, no, no, no.
I went to a school withso-and-so and that was awful.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Now, john Joe, bear with me.
Here.
You are after two names andthere are two hosts of the
podcast, and I do believeBradley can be used as a girl's
name, so you could always go forBenji and Bradley Jr.
My lips are sealed.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
But there's a strong possibility.
Oh yeah, it's a yes actuallyfor a long time we were going to
go with a and b, as in a y eand b a, b e, a oh wow, just
because we were like we can'tthink of anything else.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Baby one, baby two Do you have?
Speaker 2 (12:34):
any name ideas for yours, Brad?
Do I have any names?
I mean, I always quite like thename Ray.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Oh, lovely, thank you , thank you.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Ray, You're not too sure on that one, are you Benji?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Is that, ray, as in R-A-Y-I?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
R-A-Y as in, like Ray of Sunshine.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
I like it for a girl yeah it would be for a girl.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Oh yeah, I kind of like that there's a famous
singer called Ray, with an E atthe end R-A-Y-E there is, but
also it could be a boy's name,because Ray Charles the singer
yeah, I don't know if I like itfor a boy, ray.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, no, you can say it as much as you like.
I definitely like it, ray.
Okay, so just the girl's name.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, just Ray.
Yeah, I like Ray.
What about you?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I do.
Now I'm a bit weird when itcomes to names.
I kind of want to go.
I will never forget whenGwyneth Paltrow called her kid
Apple right, and everyone wastalking about it and I was like
this is crazy Apple.
And the more I thought about it, the more I loved random names.
So I'm not going to go with achild.
(13:32):
I thought I was going to getabsolutely shredded for this.
I am going to go for the leadcharacter of a TV program that I
used to watch when I wasyounger, and if it's a boy, I
would call him.
Are you ready for this?
Aslan, Aslan for the boy.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Aslan.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Strong.
That was a strong name.
That was on my list, was it?
No way.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Also on my list is Mil it it was no way what it was
, oh my God.
Also on my list is Milo.
Oh, I like that name, milo withan I.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
That is everybody's dog.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, I know, it's because of the Tweenies we all
grew up and everyone liked Milofrom the Twitch.
Remember the Tweenies.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, I do, yeah, yeah as an array.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
They will not be friends.
Can ray come home?
But no, but it was awkwardbecause it was not awkward, but
it was difficult because, uh, Ihave quite a strong irish
heritage and robbie has a wholerange of different heritages.
Actually I don't think he'slike a strong percentage of any
particular, but he does have aquite a strong indian heritage
as well.
I'm trying to get all of thatin there and also trying not to
piss anyone off in the familyand things like that.
(14:35):
It's really, and it has to befuture proof, has to be future
proof.
But I will say this going babyshopping is wonderful.
Yeah, it is.
It is lovely.
It's so, oh, so cute and solovely.
But then you start to get thequestions so how's mum?
How's mum doing?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
how's she coming along?
Speaker 3 (14:52):
all these sort of things, and it was something I
was really conscious of um,because I thought to myself you
know what?
What do I say when someonecomes up to my, my four-year-old
twins, and says where's yourmum?
Or any of those kind ofquestions?
Innocently, innocently put,innocently asked um, and we've
already had it.
You know, we'll go to arestaurant and we'll go with
stephanie, my sister-in-law, andthe waitress or waiter will
(15:13):
turn around and say, oh,congratulations, how far along
are you?
And she'll, she'll answer thequestion, she'll go um, actually
it's, uh, it's mybrother-in-law's baby and he's
married to my brother who's satnext to me and you just see
their head explode yeah, ofcourse, yeah, but you've got to
be.
You've got to be wary of thesekind of questions.
You know you don't want yourfamily or your children to think
that they come from somethinglesser or that their family unit
(15:35):
is not as strong as anotherfamily unit because of an
innocent question that's beenasked.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
So you've got to be prepared well, you mentioned
that you're as part of surrogacy.
You've sources that you can goto oh, that's a really great
question.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
No, not particularly.
They more help you with um sortof whatever you really want to
talk about, to do with it, butpredominantly the sort of
bonding side of things, umhelping the child if they have
questions and making surementally that they're okay.
One of the biggest things I hadwhen I was looking at this, and
one of the things that kind ofput me off surrogacy or just
having children to a gay family,was are they going to be okay
(16:11):
in the world, um, the world oftoday?
And I was really worried aboutthat.
And you know, like I said, Iused to be a teacher and I
started to see that it wasdefinitely better than in my day
.
But is it good enough?
And surrogacy org, surrogacyukorg, one of the one of the
agencies that that you can use,and we, we went to one of their
events and they had a huge studydone.
It was Cambridge University,I'll find the name in a minute
(16:35):
and it was on the happiness ofthe children that were born
through surrogacy to same-sexparents.
And it sold it to me because, tosummarise it very, very quickly
, because it's a 30-year studythey followed the same children
around for 30 years is that sortof between the ages of 9 and 11
, children born to surrogacystart to question where they've
come from and have a bit of dipat school in terms of happiness
(16:57):
and behavior and all that sortof stuff.
By 12 that they're all, they'rejust, you know, on the same
sort of level as children bornthrough to hetero couples.
And then it's children at 12 inhetero couples that then have
their dip and and start tohormones kick in and they start
to, you know, have a bit of ahappiness dip or a behavior
issue kind of dip.
But by by time they're all sortof 13, 14, 15.
(17:19):
They plateau out again.
And that was really importantto me to know that the child
wasn't going to suffer and Iwasn't doing it for selfish
reasons, that I wanted children.
Naturally it was going to bereally bad for them.
But yeah, it's really's reallyinteresting and there's so much
we've learned.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Yeah, so how have you prepared for all these sort of
questions?
Are there?
Any books you've been reading,yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
So there's a couple of books that I've read.
The Ultimate Guide for Gay Dadswas a really good one, and it
crosses.
You know what happens at schoolon Mother's Day.
I didn't even think of that atall.
Do you want your child to feelless or think they feel you
might feel less because theycan't celebrate Mother's Day?
So you talk to the school aboutit and they celebrate
Grandmother's Day, auntie's Day,whoever is strong in their life
(17:57):
day, or whatever it can be.
Anything and how to deal withthose kind of problems.
And then the innocent questionsyou'll get in the street, sort
of where's your mum or where'smummy or how's mummy doing?
And you don't want the childagain to feel lesser in your
family bond, in your family unit.
So you say with bride, actuallywe're a two-day, we're a
(18:18):
two-dad family, and you mightnot.
He even says in the book youmight not feel like answering
like that in such a mature way.
If it's an offhand comment fromsomeone that you don't get the
best of vibes from, and that'sfine, tell them to go elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
To fuck off, yeah, absolutely, I didn't know we
could say that you can say that,Lousy.
Yeah, these are the sort ofthings you'd never really think
about.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Yeah, no same.
I mean you've totally opened upmy eyes to sort of like the
possibility of this because, aswe were saying earlier, we, um,
I've never taught this at schoolor didn't even know this could
be a possibility for me, youknow no and that's helping
schools.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Actually now there are quite a lot of schools that
are teaching how the differentways, because even you know,
gays, lesbians aside, straightcouples really struggle.
Infertility is huge.
Sort of one in three people arefinding out they can't have
children for whatever reason.
The surrogacy event I went tothere was about six, seven
hundred people there and I'droughly say sort of 75, 80% were
(19:15):
straight couples and that was abig shock to me there.
And then I actually took mymother-in-law and the day was
split into different talks andshe went off to the surrogate
talk to go learn about it andapparently she got a lot of
funny looks with this 65 yearold woman sat in the back row
thinking that she could be asurrogate?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
also, how far did you look into adoption?
I only ask this because I wastold that actually same gendered
couples struggle a lot morewith adoption than heterosexual
couples.
Is that something that you did?
You come across that.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
So I looked into it and I won't say I looked into it
heavily because I veeredtowards looking into surrogacy
more in the first instance.
I know that lots of rules arechanging.
I think quite a few have justchanged recently actually to try
and make it a bit easier foradopting.
It's its own battlefield, it'sits own journey and it needs to
be respected.
I think One of the things I'vereally learned about this whole
process is that if you do wantchildren when you start hitting
(20:12):
35, not for your body clock orany other reason, because it
doesn't affect men quite in thesame way but you need to start
planning.
You need to be able to takeyour time off work I have my own
companies, as you do, and Ineed to know that they will be
okay for six months a year sothat I can actually dedicate
time to and even after that timeand but also having your
finances set up.
You know I looked at lifeinsurance.
(20:33):
I've looked at content, all thedifferent insurances and things
like that, because you you needthem, one of the things of
doing surrogacy as well you haveto have a will.
I didn't have a will.
I never kept point.
You know.
You think about it.
You think it's something oldergeneration of people do, but you
need it well because evenbefore the babies are born, if
you something happens to you andyou're no longer around, who's
(20:55):
gonna look after them?
true but it's not all heavy.
Yeah, there's quite a lot oflightness and loveliness and
wonderfulness to it.
And you know, we've just boughtsome little cute outfits that
hopefully we can bring them homein, and bath thermometers and
all the nappies, so many nappies.
But then he's feeding every twohours for the first three weeks
.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
What?
Yeah, two of them, and that'syeah it's happening after Bruce.
Just bring me back to life.
I'm out with food, oh sorry.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Oh awkward.
And they may not want to feed,you know, they might want to
just cry or whatever.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
So there's so much so much and they've missed their
slot.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Daddy's off to bed but you do find that new respect
for your parents again beinglike wow, how did you actually
do this?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
but I suppose between you and your partner as well,
robbie you, I guess, if youthink of like a heterosexual
couple, you've got the mom andthe dad and they may take on
very different roles, and someof that might be quite habitual
because of how they've grown upand maybe the obviousness of
who's the more masculine, who'smore feminine one.
But then, in a same genderedcouple, is that something you
feel like just comes naturallybetween your bond that's why you
(22:07):
grew close together or is itsomething you've discussed, like
who's going to be, who's goingto be the strict one, who's
going to be there, you know,yeah exactly.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's really interesting.
I think, if you strip awaygender from that conversation,
it is actually just aboutpersonality types.
Yeah, um, I really wanted tomarry robbie and I'm very much
in love with robbie and I couldsee that he's got so many
qualities that I feel Ipersonally don't have.
That would really help inbringing up children.
You know, he's very energeticand happy and he loves doing
(22:34):
things and making things andcreating imaginary forts and
castles and crazy stuff.
And that's now, so you canimagine what it's going to be,
like when he's got athree-year-old daughter and a
three-year-old son to play it athree-year-old daughter and a
three-year-old son to play it.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Sounds like you already have a child, I feel
like me and Robbie are on thesame page.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
There's a few people in the family that said the same
thing.
They're like, oh, you're goingto have four children.
I was like, oh God, but no, hebrings so much joy and
everything.
And you know it sounds silly,but I know nothing about
football and he knows everythingabout football.
So I'm covered, I feel safe, Ifeel happy, you know, and I know
(23:08):
more about musical theater andall the good yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's so true.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Actually, because you wouldn't want to necessarily
put onto the kids like because,let me, I don't know anything
about football and I'm notsaying that I'd necessarily be,
I don't know, I might not beattracted to someone who is or
isn't, doesn't matter, but youwould want someone to be able to
cover that field in case.
And then you think about thatin a wider sense as well.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
You know, I'm having a daughter and that worries me
because I am a man.
Yeah, um, for the most part, umdepends on the day, but um but,
there are going to be questionsthat she may not want to ask me
um and that I may not be able togive the best answer to, no
matter how much I research it.
So I've got to make surethere's strong women in my life.
(23:47):
You know my mother, her aunties, et cetera, my mother-in-law
that will step up and do thatrole.
But they say it takes a village, you know, and maybe in a gay
relationship it's just aslightly bigger village is
needed.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah yeah, yeah, big old gay village.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Yeah right, hey, the village people.
I do not want them raising mychildren, but you would cover a
lot of bases, you would.
That's true, it's the policeman.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
So final question for me, I think, jonjo, is you've
mentioned a few things liketherapy.
Basically, you've mentioned alot of things that involve costs
.
So this is obviously not a I'mgoing to use the word cheap.
It's not a cheap process to godown and it obviously has to be
something that you really reallywant.
Is the cost something that Ayou're happy to talk about and B
higher than you originally?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
thought it was going to be yes, absolutely, talk
about it all day long andactually it was lower than I
thought it was going to be.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Yeah, you hear a lot of scary stories and things on
the grapevine and things likethat.
America is very expensive,expensive.
It's very expensive.
It's commercial out there.
So it's going to be in england.
It's not commercial.
It's illegal for it to becommercial, like we said.
Um.
So for that to happen, youcover the costs of your
surrogate and that's it, and youpay for the eggs if you want to
, if you want to um, buy eggs.
(25:01):
Uh, the eggs are expensive, theeggs you know.
Roughly speaking you're lookingabout eight or nine grand for
five to eight eggs.
Um, and it's a bit unfair inengland actually on that point
as well, because the thedonators, the women that donate,
they get about six, sevenhundred pounds, seven hundred
and fifty pounds for donating.
So it's really the clinicsmaking the money there.
But in terms of expenses foryour surrogate it's very
(25:24):
individual.
So surrogate might needclothing, might need time off,
work, all the rest of it, andthat will cost you quite a bit.
They roughly say it's about15,000 pounds in expenses.
Um, I'm quite fortunate at theminute that um stephanie has
been looked after by the familyquite a lot and all that sort of
stuff.
So it's slightly less for mepersonally and for robbie, but
you're looking about 15 grand.
(25:44):
So all in all you're probablylooking about 20,000 pounds for
Robbie, but you're looking about15 grand.
So all in all you're probablylooking about 20,000 pounds
split out over the whole process.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Okay, yeah, and does that include?
So, for example, yourself youput in two embryos to go for
twins.
Does that include?
Speaker 3 (25:55):
yes, yeah, oh, wow, yeah.
So that's for the.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yeah, they put them in at the same time, so that's,
that's the IVF, that'severything which I believe
stands for intravenousfertilization in vitro
fertilization.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Yeah, that's close.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
And is there any um help for that or any funding or
grants, or is it all private?
Speaker 3 (26:16):
it's, oh, a bit of a horror story.
I love the nhs.
I would never say anything badabout it, but the only thing I
will say is I did my first spermtest to see where my sperm
count was.
You need about 80 million spermper milliliter, which just
blows my mind, and so I did thefirst sperm test.
They didn't really ask what itwas for second sperm test
because it was a bit low.
(26:36):
They said why.
You know what is the processthat you're doing this for?
I said it's for surrogacy andthey stopped the process
completely stopped it becausethey they don't fund it.
It's not covered by the NHS.
I know straight.
You know hetero couples areallowed IVF if all the other
avenues have been exhausted.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
But we're not covered yet at the minute.
So even if you just wanted toknow for your own, like
headspace.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Yeah, or you say you were trying for a child with
your girlfriend.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
You couldn't just go in and go?
I'm just curious to know forthe future.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
I think generally you can't do that.
I'm trying for a baby with mypartner, who's a girl, that's
really backwards yeah.
And there's a lot of testingthat's involved with that as
well.
In that £20,000 I was talkingabout, the eggs are checked for
any sort of diseases diseasesthat can be passed down and and
so are.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
So is your dna and your sperm and everything else
as well, so it was all allincluded I mean john joe, thank
you so much for coming on to thepodcast and sharing all this
wonderful information for, likeI've learned so so much, if we
wanted to find out a bit more,is there a website you can
direct us to?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
yes, um.
So the government recommends acouple of websites.
The one that I remember off thetop of my head I found the most
useful is soxyukorg.
They have a wealth ofinformation, they're very happy
to help and they can do freeconsultations etc to help you,
uh, understand the journey wow,thank you so, so much for coming
on to my big gay podcast.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
It's been absolutely brilliant to have you on, and
your new children have got themost wonderful parents they're
going to raise them.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
They're so lucky, so much.
I want you to be my daddy aswell.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
No, honestly john joe , I think coming on sharing this
story.
It's such a personal one, um.
So thank you so much, andobviously thank you to your
husband as well, obviouslyknowing he's here sharing your
story but he's not here to showit himself.
That's, it's really sweet ofhim, so the thanks passes on to
him also.
You have such a wonderful voice.
I have to say this right now.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Oh my god, I felt the same, but I didn't want to come
across weird by saying it.
So you're saying I'm weird no,no, I feel the same as you, but
I didn't want.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
You think I was weird and I just want to say now that
when you're at home tellingbedtime stories, they are so
lucky.
Honestly, the voice is god, ohthank you so much.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
It's been an absolute pleasure being here.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
So I think we're gonna have listeners who may not
want to do surrogacy but willlisten purely for daddy's voice
um yes, podcasters.
That is sadly all we have timefor in this week's episode of my
big game podcast.
If you don't, please do notforget to head over to our
instagram it's at big gamepodcast or head over to our
website.
Sign up to our party list andwe'll send you all sorts of
different information of what'sgoing on in our world.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
And also, if you did want to find out a little bit
more information about surrogacy, we will pop those links onto
our Instagram post about thisepisode.
So head on to that post, giveit a little like and scroll down
and get more information.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
For sure, for sure.
And if you do have any otherquestions that you want to ask
us, or if, maybe, if you've beenthrough it yourself and you
want to write in with yourstories, please do head into our
dms.
But, like I said, that's all wehave time for in this week's
episode of my big a podcast.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Until next time john j, do you want to do it with us?
Oh, my god here we go and seeyou.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Next I'll go again, but, like I said, podcast,
that's all we have time for inthis week's episode of my big
day podcast.
Until next time.
John Right, you have been doingit for six seasons.
You should know what you'redoing.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
John, do you know when you're coming in?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yes, Right, here we go.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
All together.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
But, like I said, podcast is all we have time for
in this week's episode of nextWednesday.
Oh my goodness, chaos, chaos,thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Thank you.
Hello podcasters and welcome back to part two of a
very special episode where we'retalking to John Joe.
John Joe is in a same-genderedrelationship and he's currently
going through surrogacy and verysoon will become a father.
If you haven't listened to partone, please make sure you
listen to that first.
Otherwise, on with the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Gosh Benji, I feel like I have learned so much
information already.
I feel more educated today thanI did yesterday.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Than ever before in my life, than ever before Do you
?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
know what I think I might ask my boss for a pay rise
.
I've learned new information.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Right, I'm surprised you have a job, me too.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
But Jonjo, so talk us through what's been happening
recently and preparing for thebaby, because you've obviously
gone from wanting to have achild to having two children on
the way, and so what is the nextstep?
So you found out you've gottwins coming.
Have you been shopping?
Have you been going to classes?
What's been going on?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
It's been mental because it goes by so quickly,
like I have this app and ittells you every week how the
baby's growing and what'shappening to them and et cetera,
and it's just magical anddisgusting all at the same time.
But yes, I have been shopping,but I didn't do it for a really
long time because I was reallyworried about all this lot of
superstition around it.
You know the silly things thatI can't help but not do.
(01:41):
Our success rate, for example,was 7%.
We had a 7% chance of thisworking the first time around.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Wow, that's so low.
I thought that'd be higher.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
No, with their age brackets, and we were trying for
two at the same time.
So we did try for two at thesame time.
We put two embryos in and theweirdest thing, the first part
of the journey is you do thepregnancy.
Steph did a pregnancy test.
She actually did a pregnancytest much earlier.
She was like, guys, my boobshurt, so I'm going to go check
(02:10):
and it came through reallystrongly.
So we were really really,really lucky.
We were like over the moon andcelebrating and everything like
that.
But then the first thing youlearn is actually, you think the
babies now are a week old ortwo weeks old or whatever day
that you've just tested on.
No, they're like um, nearly twoand a half, three weeks old by
that point, because when they uhdo the IVF transfer, um, it
(02:31):
goes straight into the lining ofthe womb and naturally that
would take quite a few days.
So you're already further aheadthan you thought you were.
So your time is running out and, as part of the surrogacy
process, you have to, by law,have um counseling, uh
separately with your partner, umand then separate from your
partner, and and so too does thesurrogate um you need wills,
you need life insurance.
Um, you need to sort legaladvice.
(02:53):
Um, you need all of that stuffsorting in advance, and it's the
same for the surrogate.
You have to pay those expenses.
So you have to make surethey've had legal advice and
counseling and and it's right,it's perfectly right, you don't?
You know, you want to protectthe surrogate and make sure that
they're a human.
You don't want to exploit themin any way whatsoever.
Um, so you go about doing that.
And then the superstitionsabout not bringing the pram
(03:14):
inside the house until it's,because every single week, until
you get that solid, you know,you get to the sort of uh, 30
week mark where you can start tosort of rest a bit and you
think right is actually going tohappen now.
Um, you still don't know youknow, it could not happen.
You know so many complicationsand with twins, you know they
can give you um a due date, butactually it can be any time,
(03:37):
sort of six weeks before that,because they don't let twins
grow as big as children when youjust have one, because there's
not enough room, etc.
And so they get them out a bitearlier.
Um, but shopping, yes, and it'sbeen lovely.
Um, my mother-in-law and mymother just have been desperate
to go shopping with me and, um,I wouldn't let them because I
was too superstitious, I waslike it's too early, it's too
early, hold on.
(03:57):
And then when I finally said yes, oh my, they go over like, oh,
we've got teddy bears, we've gotthis and we've got blankets and
cots and grip, but it is soexpensive and a second american
express card literally exactlythat yeah, um, but they were so
excited to do it so it's beenreally, really exciting and,
like I said, we're we've beentold it can be any point from
(04:18):
now that they're due, so we'rehaving to keep, uh, within an
hour of eastbourne, which iswhere my sister-in-law lives, um
, just so that we're ready to go.
But you know, we've hadappointments and stuff like that
with the doctors and theyweren't ready for it.
They weren't ready for, um, asame-sex couple coming in.
They didn't know what theprotocol was or what to say or
what not say.
It's.
It's been a journey in thatrespect as well.
(04:39):
You know, midwife saying, well,I remember we're having one of
the first scans and, um, weweren't both allowed in the room
with with steph.
They only wanted one of us inthe room.
We were like, well, we're both,we're both going to be the dads
we need to be, need to be inthe room, and we had to fight
that.
And you know that's why we'vehad to check with the hospital
now and make sure thateverything's okay and
everything's set up with abirthing plan, that we've
(05:01):
totally followed Steph's lead aswell with that.
You know, they asked thesurrogate if they want to have
time with the children beforethey hand them over and things
like that.
But there's so many things we'velearned.
For example, you know, just ingeneral, we're entitled to
paternity leave and we're alsoentitled to adoption leave.
Adoption leave is great.
It doesn't sound great becauseit's got the word adoption in it
and they just need to updatethat title, which hopefully they
(05:23):
will, but it's.
It's something like 29 weeks umof 90 pay, or also.
It's really good.
It's like a really good deal.
But what we're not entitled tois and it's actually happened
with my husband, um, but he'smanaged to sort it, since, as a
man, you can't just go into ajob tomorrow and then say, oh,
by the way, I'm having babies ina month's time.
Uh, you won't be allowed thetime off because you won't have
(05:45):
been there.
It's a government rule.
You won't have been there longenough to be entitled to it.
So my husband was like soyou're telling me I'm going to
have kids on Thursday and youwant me back in on Friday?
And he managed to sort it allout.
But yeah, whereas if you're awoman having a child, obviously
you've got to heal, etc.
Uh, you can start a jobtomorrow and then go and return
to leave the next day so justfor my brain, is that because
(06:07):
it's uh male versus female,right?
yeah, yeah it's not quite.
It's not where it should be.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, at the minute we're not best protected, sure,
but that is changing and they'relooking into making changes and
things like that and just goingback to the story you said
about um only allowing one ofthe fathers in the room, and
since then that's changed.
Is that because that hospitalor those people didn't know any
different and so they're alsolearning about the evolve of
other types of peritone?
(06:33):
That isn't your heteronormative.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Yeah exactly that.
So they they were like oh, ofcourse that's a silly rule.
We'll change that straight away.
Of course you're both allowedin and yeah, we're very excited
to have that day where we get toput them in the little car
seats and take them out.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
So, going back, you mentioned you're having twins.
Yeah, and you always wanted tohave twins.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
So we tried for twins .
Yeah, we put two embryos in tobegin with.
A lot of clinics won't do itbecause it's such a high risk
and all clinics are measured bytheir success rates.
So for such a high risk and allclinics are measured by their
success rates, so for them theytry to avoid anything too that's
going to lower that rateeffectively, and I know just
because I do watch thekardashians and they actually
did have a really strongsurrogacy story on their last
(07:14):
season the last two seasonsactually which was, I thought,
very interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Um, there are some clinics where you can like you
can choose the gender of thebaby, you can choose the eye
color color you can chooseliterally.
It's like design a baby, yeah,yeah, yeah.
Somebody on the Real Housewivesdid it as well.
They were like I want a boy, Iwant blue eyes.
Literally, you pick things.
Now, it doesn't always happen,but you can request them.
Is that something you were everoffered or did you want it to
be sort of so it's illegal inEngland to, of course, classic
(07:48):
americans, but I do have.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I'm not sure if I can tell the story, but I did have
a very strange moment where wemade our embryos and they take
they, they grow them for 10 daysto see which ones survive.
So we had 10 eggs.
Uh sorry, we had 12 eggs and ofthe 12 eggs, 10 came through,
and that was really great,because it's normally about 40
that that come through.
So already you're alreadylosing 60% of what you've tried
to create Um.
And then they grade them likeAA, bbb, ccc.
(08:10):
Aa is the best Um and it'sthree different categories that
they measure.
I can't remember off the top ofmy head what they are, but the
clinic put in an AAA and a BBB,even though I had more AAs to
use.
And when I why, they just saidjust don't worry, don't worry
about it.
And so I did worry about it yeahI would too, and uh, this is
(08:30):
complete conspiracy now andobviously it's legal to do it
and I'm sure they don't do it.
Um, but I think it's becauseyou know we did mention it would
be the absolute joy better thanwinning the lottery would be to
have a boy and a girl right,and then you either well, the,
the gender of a baby is decidedalmost instantaneously so they
can see it on screen, even ifthey're not allowed to tell you.
(08:52):
Um, but yeah, like you said, inamerica you can go and choose
whatever you want.
But it is also about 250 to 300000 and that's before you
factor in.
You might need to live overthere for nine months because
you need to get your children orchild a passport.
You know how hard it is gettinga passport in England.
You've got to wait for thatprocess and look after the
children over there whilst theydo that, and flights and things
(09:14):
like that, and accommodation andeven the surrogate's expenses.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
So did your wish come true.
Are you expecting a boy andgirl?
I am, I am indeed.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Very, very excited.
Uh, stephanie did the genderreveal for us and my whole
family were there and robbie'swhole family were there, and it
was so magical, it was so lovely.
She, she tricked us royally,she, uh, she got us nine um
balloons that you couldn't seethrough.
And she said, in, there is thegender.
And I said, right, well,there's two.
So if it is a boy and a girl,how's that going to work?
He said, well, the confettiinside will have two different
(09:49):
colors.
Um, so we're very excited aboutthat.
We've got the whole familyaround, we're popping all the
balloons, we're getting roundsof applause and cheers and
everyone's like, ah, we got toballoon eight pop that one white
confetti came out again for theeighth time and we were like,
what, what happened?
What happened?
And then she, uh, she lent herhead around the corner, said you
need to call your fur babiesinto the room.
So I've got two dogs, twocockapoos.
(10:11):
So I screamed at the top of mylungs ted, woodford, come, come.
They ran in pink balloon camein first, with woodford on
carrying it for us.
It was tied to his um collarand the blue one came just
afterwards.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
So we were very, very excited, very excited, yeah,
there were lots of tears.
Benji, I feel really broody.
Are you sure you don't want tohave a baby with me?
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I am really sure that I don't.
I've never been more sure ofanything in my life than having
you to co-parent me like havingthree kids, my goodness yeah,
literally, literally, that goshum, so you found out you were
having twins.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
You found a boy and a girl.
Have you spoke about baby names?
Obviously you don't have totell us, but have you had that
conversation?
Oh it is the question on everyfamily members I'm sure it's a
question on our lips as well wehave.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
We thought long and hard about names.
We couldn't decide.
We honestly couldn't decide.
There's so many lovely namesout there and so many have
different meanings.
So I used to be a teacher for along time, so I turned it into
a bit of a teaching game.
How we decided and effectivelywe had 12 cards, 12 pebbles each
, and if we really liked a namewe could put two pebbles on.
It took a pebble from that youcould have used for another card
(11:29):
.
Then it means you like thatname less.
And then I did the same withthe dogs.
I put two bits of cheese onboth of them and, robbie, let
them go at the same time.
They're both and weirdly enough, they both went for the same
names we'd also chosen oh, we'rekeeping them a secret, of
course, because we were askingall the family members about
different names and you askdifferent people about what they
think about different names andyou'll love a name and then
(11:50):
they'll go no, no, no, no.
I went to a school withso-and-so and that was awful.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Now, john Joe, bear with me.
Here.
You are after two names andthere are two hosts of the
podcast, and I do believeBradley can be used as a girl's
name, so you could always go forBenji and Bradley Jr.
My lips are sealed.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
But there's a strong possibility.
Oh yeah, it's a yes actuallyfor a long time we were going to
go with a and b, as in a y eand b a, b e, a oh wow, just
because we were like we can'tthink of anything else.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Baby one, baby two Do you have?
Speaker 2 (12:34):
any name ideas for yours, Brad?
Do I have any names?
I mean, I always quite like thename Ray.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Oh, lovely, thank you , thank you.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Ray, You're not too sure on that one, are you Benji?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Is that, ray, as in R-A-Y-I?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
R-A-Y as in, like Ray of Sunshine.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
I like it for a girl yeah it would be for a girl.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Oh yeah, I kind of like that there's a famous
singer called Ray, with an E atthe end R-A-Y-E there is, but
also it could be a boy's name,because Ray Charles the singer
yeah, I don't know if I like itfor a boy, ray.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, no, you can say it as much as you like.
I definitely like it, ray.
Okay, so just the girl's name.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, just Ray.
Yeah, I like Ray.
What about you?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I do.
Now I'm a bit weird when itcomes to names.
I kind of want to go.
I will never forget whenGwyneth Paltrow called her kid
Apple right, and everyone wastalking about it and I was like
this is crazy Apple.
And the more I thought about it, the more I loved random names.
So I'm not going to go with achild.
(13:32):
I thought I was going to getabsolutely shredded for this.
I am going to go for the leadcharacter of a TV program that I
used to watch when I wasyounger, and if it's a boy, I
would call him.
Are you ready for this?
Aslan, Aslan for the boy.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Aslan.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Strong.
That was a strong name.
That was on my list, was it?
No way.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Also on my list is Mil it it was no way what it was
, oh my God.
Also on my list is Milo.
Oh, I like that name, milo withan I.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
That is everybody's dog.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, I know, it's because of the Tweenies we all
grew up and everyone liked Milofrom the Twitch.
Remember the Tweenies.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, I do, yeah, yeah as an array.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
They will not be friends.
Can ray come home?
But no, but it was awkwardbecause it was not awkward, but
it was difficult because, uh, Ihave quite a strong irish
heritage and robbie has a wholerange of different heritages.
Actually I don't think he'slike a strong percentage of any
particular, but he does have aquite a strong indian heritage
as well.
I'm trying to get all of thatin there and also trying not to
piss anyone off in the familyand things like that.
(14:35):
It's really, and it has to befuture proof, has to be future
proof.
But I will say this going babyshopping is wonderful.
Yeah, it is.
It is lovely.
It's so, oh, so cute and solovely.
But then you start to get thequestions so how's mum?
How's mum doing?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
how's she coming along?
Speaker 3 (14:52):
all these sort of things, and it was something I
was really conscious of um,because I thought to myself you
know what?
What do I say when someonecomes up to my, my four-year-old
twins, and says where's yourmum?
Or any of those kind ofquestions?
Innocently, innocently put,innocently asked um, and we've
already had it.
You know, we'll go to arestaurant and we'll go with
stephanie, my sister-in-law, andthe waitress or waiter will
(15:13):
turn around and say, oh,congratulations, how far along
are you?
And she'll, she'll answer thequestion, she'll go um, actually
it's, uh, it's mybrother-in-law's baby and he's
married to my brother who's satnext to me and you just see
their head explode yeah, ofcourse, yeah, but you've got to
be.
You've got to be wary of thesekind of questions.
You know you don't want yourfamily or your children to think
that they come from somethinglesser or that their family unit
(15:35):
is not as strong as anotherfamily unit because of an
innocent question that's beenasked.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
So you've got to be prepared well, you mentioned
that you're as part of surrogacy.
You've sources that you can goto oh, that's a really great
question.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
No, not particularly.
They more help you with um sortof whatever you really want to
talk about, to do with it, butpredominantly the sort of
bonding side of things, umhelping the child if they have
questions and making surementally that they're okay.
One of the biggest things I hadwhen I was looking at this, and
one of the things that kind ofput me off surrogacy or just
having children to a gay family,was are they going to be okay
(16:11):
in the world, um, the world oftoday?
And I was really worried aboutthat.
And you know, like I said, Iused to be a teacher and I
started to see that it wasdefinitely better than in my day
.
But is it good enough?
And surrogacy org, surrogacyukorg, one of the one of the
agencies that that you can use,and we, we went to one of their
events and they had a huge studydone.
It was Cambridge University,I'll find the name in a minute
(16:35):
and it was on the happiness ofthe children that were born
through surrogacy to same-sexparents.
And it sold it to me because, tosummarise it very, very quickly
, because it's a 30-year studythey followed the same children
around for 30 years is that sortof between the ages of 9 and 11
, children born to surrogacystart to question where they've
come from and have a bit of dipat school in terms of happiness
(16:57):
and behavior and all that sortof stuff.
By 12 that they're all, they'rejust, you know, on the same
sort of level as children bornthrough to hetero couples.
And then it's children at 12 inhetero couples that then have
their dip and and start tohormones kick in and they start
to, you know, have a bit of ahappiness dip or a behavior
issue kind of dip.
But by by time they're all sortof 13, 14, 15.
(17:19):
They plateau out again.
And that was really importantto me to know that the child
wasn't going to suffer and Iwasn't doing it for selfish
reasons, that I wanted children.
Naturally it was going to bereally bad for them.
But yeah, it's really's reallyinteresting and there's so much
we've learned.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Yeah, so how have you prepared for all these sort of
questions?
Are there?
Any books you've been reading,yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
So there's a couple of books that I've read.
The Ultimate Guide for Gay Dadswas a really good one, and it
crosses.
You know what happens at schoolon Mother's Day.
I didn't even think of that atall.
Do you want your child to feelless or think they feel you
might feel less because theycan't celebrate Mother's Day?
So you talk to the school aboutit and they celebrate
Grandmother's Day, auntie's Day,whoever is strong in their life
(17:57):
day, or whatever it can be.
Anything and how to deal withthose kind of problems.
And then the innocent questionsyou'll get in the street, sort
of where's your mum or where'smummy or how's mummy doing?
And you don't want the childagain to feel lesser in your
family bond, in your family unit.
So you say with bride, actuallywe're a two-day, we're a
(18:18):
two-dad family, and you mightnot.
He even says in the book youmight not feel like answering
like that in such a mature way.
If it's an offhand comment fromsomeone that you don't get the
best of vibes from, and that'sfine, tell them to go elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
To fuck off, yeah, absolutely, I didn't know we
could say that you can say that,Lousy.
Yeah, these are the sort ofthings you'd never really think
about.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Yeah, no same.
I mean you've totally opened upmy eyes to sort of like the
possibility of this because, aswe were saying earlier, we, um,
I've never taught this at schoolor didn't even know this could
be a possibility for me, youknow no and that's helping
schools.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Actually now there are quite a lot of schools that
are teaching how the differentways, because even you know,
gays, lesbians aside, straightcouples really struggle.
Infertility is huge.
Sort of one in three people arefinding out they can't have
children for whatever reason.
The surrogacy event I went tothere was about six, seven
hundred people there and I'droughly say sort of 75, 80% were
(19:15):
straight couples and that was abig shock to me there.
And then I actually took mymother-in-law and the day was
split into different talks andshe went off to the surrogate
talk to go learn about it andapparently she got a lot of
funny looks with this 65 yearold woman sat in the back row
thinking that she could be asurrogate?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
also, how far did you look into adoption?
I only ask this because I wastold that actually same gendered
couples struggle a lot morewith adoption than heterosexual
couples.
Is that something that you did?
You come across that.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
So I looked into it and I won't say I looked into it
heavily because I veeredtowards looking into surrogacy
more in the first instance.
I know that lots of rules arechanging.
I think quite a few have justchanged recently actually to try
and make it a bit easier foradopting.
It's its own battlefield, it'sits own journey and it needs to
be respected.
I think One of the things I'vereally learned about this whole
process is that if you do wantchildren when you start hitting
(20:12):
35, not for your body clock orany other reason, because it
doesn't affect men quite in thesame way but you need to start
planning.
You need to be able to takeyour time off work I have my own
companies, as you do, and Ineed to know that they will be
okay for six months a year sothat I can actually dedicate
time to and even after that timeand but also having your
finances set up.
You know I looked at lifeinsurance.
(20:33):
I've looked at content, all thedifferent insurances and things
like that, because you you needthem, one of the things of
doing surrogacy as well you haveto have a will.
I didn't have a will.
I never kept point.
You know.
You think about it.
You think it's something oldergeneration of people do, but you
need it well because evenbefore the babies are born, if
you something happens to you andyou're no longer around, who's
(20:55):
gonna look after them?
true but it's not all heavy.
Yeah, there's quite a lot oflightness and loveliness and
wonderfulness to it.
And you know, we've just boughtsome little cute outfits that
hopefully we can bring them homein, and bath thermometers and
all the nappies, so many nappies.
But then he's feeding every twohours for the first three weeks
.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
What?
Yeah, two of them, and that'syeah it's happening after Bruce.
Just bring me back to life.
I'm out with food, oh sorry.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Oh awkward.
And they may not want to feed,you know, they might want to
just cry or whatever.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
So there's so much so much and they've missed their
slot.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Daddy's off to bed but you do find that new respect
for your parents again beinglike wow, how did you actually
do this?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
but I suppose between you and your partner as well,
robbie you, I guess, if youthink of like a heterosexual
couple, you've got the mom andthe dad and they may take on
very different roles, and someof that might be quite habitual
because of how they've grown upand maybe the obviousness of
who's the more masculine, who'smore feminine one.
But then, in a same genderedcouple, is that something you
feel like just comes naturallybetween your bond that's why you
(22:07):
grew close together or is itsomething you've discussed, like
who's going to be, who's goingto be the strict one, who's
going to be there, you know,yeah exactly.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's really interesting.
I think, if you strip awaygender from that conversation,
it is actually just aboutpersonality types.
Yeah, um, I really wanted tomarry robbie and I'm very much
in love with robbie and I couldsee that he's got so many
qualities that I feel Ipersonally don't have.
That would really help inbringing up children.
You know, he's very energeticand happy and he loves doing
(22:34):
things and making things andcreating imaginary forts and
castles and crazy stuff.
And that's now, so you canimagine what it's going to be,
like when he's got athree-year-old daughter and a
three-year-old son to play it athree-year-old daughter and a
three-year-old son to play it.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Sounds like you already have a child, I feel
like me and Robbie are on thesame page.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
There's a few people in the family that said the same
thing.
They're like, oh, you're goingto have four children.
I was like, oh God, but no, hebrings so much joy and
everything.
And you know it sounds silly,but I know nothing about
football and he knows everythingabout football.
So I'm covered, I feel safe, Ifeel happy, you know, and I know
(23:08):
more about musical theater andall the good yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's so true.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Actually, because you wouldn't want to necessarily
put onto the kids like because,let me, I don't know anything
about football and I'm notsaying that I'd necessarily be,
I don't know, I might not beattracted to someone who is or
isn't, doesn't matter, but youwould want someone to be able to
cover that field in case.
And then you think about thatin a wider sense as well.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
You know, I'm having a daughter and that worries me
because I am a man.
Yeah, um, for the most part, umdepends on the day, but um but,
there are going to be questionsthat she may not want to ask me
um and that I may not be able togive the best answer to, no
matter how much I research it.
So I've got to make surethere's strong women in my life.
(23:47):
You know my mother, her aunties, et cetera, my mother-in-law
that will step up and do thatrole.
But they say it takes a village, you know, and maybe in a gay
relationship it's just aslightly bigger village is
needed.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah yeah, yeah, big old gay village.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Yeah right, hey, the village people.
I do not want them raising mychildren, but you would cover a
lot of bases, you would.
That's true, it's the policeman.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
So final question for me, I think, jonjo, is you've
mentioned a few things liketherapy.
Basically, you've mentioned alot of things that involve costs
.
So this is obviously not a I'mgoing to use the word cheap.
It's not a cheap process to godown and it obviously has to be
something that you really reallywant.
Is the cost something that Ayou're happy to talk about and B
higher than you originally?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
thought it was going to be yes, absolutely, talk
about it all day long andactually it was lower than I
thought it was going to be.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Yeah, you hear a lot of scary stories and things on
the grapevine and things likethat.
America is very expensive,expensive.
It's very expensive.
It's commercial out there.
So it's going to be in england.
It's not commercial.
It's illegal for it to becommercial, like we said.
Um.
So for that to happen, youcover the costs of your
surrogate and that's it, and youpay for the eggs if you want to
, if you want to um, buy eggs.
(25:01):
Uh, the eggs are expensive, theeggs you know.
Roughly speaking you're lookingabout eight or nine grand for
five to eight eggs.
Um, and it's a bit unfair inengland actually on that point
as well, because the thedonators, the women that donate,
they get about six, sevenhundred pounds, seven hundred
and fifty pounds for donating.
So it's really the clinicsmaking the money there.
But in terms of expenses foryour surrogate it's very
(25:24):
individual.
So surrogate might needclothing, might need time off,
work, all the rest of it, andthat will cost you quite a bit.
They roughly say it's about15,000 pounds in expenses.
Um, I'm quite fortunate at theminute that um stephanie has
been looked after by the familyquite a lot and all that sort of
stuff.
So it's slightly less for mepersonally and for robbie, but
you're looking about 15 grand.
(25:44):
So all in all you're probablylooking about 20,000 pounds for
Robbie, but you're looking about15 grand.
So all in all you're probablylooking about 20,000 pounds
split out over the whole process.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Okay, yeah, and does that include?
So, for example, yourself youput in two embryos to go for
twins.
Does that include?
Speaker 3 (25:55):
yes, yeah, oh, wow, yeah.
So that's for the.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yeah, they put them in at the same time, so that's,
that's the IVF, that'severything which I believe
stands for intravenousfertilization in vitro
fertilization.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Yeah, that's close.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
And is there any um help for that or any funding or
grants, or is it all private?
Speaker 3 (26:16):
it's, oh, a bit of a horror story.
I love the nhs.
I would never say anything badabout it, but the only thing I
will say is I did my first spermtest to see where my sperm
count was.
You need about 80 million spermper milliliter, which just
blows my mind, and so I did thefirst sperm test.
They didn't really ask what itwas for second sperm test
because it was a bit low.
(26:36):
They said why.
You know what is the processthat you're doing this for?
I said it's for surrogacy andthey stopped the process
completely stopped it becausethey they don't fund it.
It's not covered by the NHS.
I know straight.
You know hetero couples areallowed IVF if all the other
avenues have been exhausted.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
But we're not covered yet at the minute.
So even if you just wanted toknow for your own, like
headspace.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Yeah, or you say you were trying for a child with
your girlfriend.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
You couldn't just go in and go?
I'm just curious to know forthe future.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
I think generally you can't do that.
I'm trying for a baby with mypartner, who's a girl, that's
really backwards yeah.
And there's a lot of testingthat's involved with that as
well.
In that £20,000 I was talkingabout, the eggs are checked for
any sort of diseases diseasesthat can be passed down and and
so are.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
So is your dna and your sperm and everything else
as well, so it was all allincluded I mean john joe, thank
you so much for coming on to thepodcast and sharing all this
wonderful information for, likeI've learned so so much, if we
wanted to find out a bit more,is there a website you can
direct us to?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
yes, um.
So the government recommends acouple of websites.
The one that I remember off thetop of my head I found the most
useful is soxyukorg.
They have a wealth ofinformation, they're very happy
to help and they can do freeconsultations etc to help you,
uh, understand the journey wow,thank you so, so much for coming
on to my big gay podcast.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
It's been absolutely brilliant to have you on, and
your new children have got themost wonderful parents they're
going to raise them.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
They're so lucky, so much.
I want you to be my daddy aswell.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
No, honestly john joe , I think coming on sharing this
story.
It's such a personal one, um.
So thank you so much, andobviously thank you to your
husband as well, obviouslyknowing he's here sharing your
story but he's not here to showit himself.
That's, it's really sweet ofhim, so the thanks passes on to
him also.
You have such a wonderful voice.
I have to say this right now.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Oh my god, I felt the same, but I didn't want to come
across weird by saying it.
So you're saying I'm weird no,no, I feel the same as you, but
I didn't want.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
You think I was weird and I just want to say now that
when you're at home tellingbedtime stories, they are so
lucky.
Honestly, the voice is god, ohthank you so much.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
It's been an absolute pleasure being here.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
So I think we're gonna have listeners who may not
want to do surrogacy but willlisten purely for daddy's voice
um yes, podcasters.
That is sadly all we have timefor in this week's episode of my
big game podcast.
If you don't, please do notforget to head over to our
instagram it's at big gamepodcast or head over to our
website.
Sign up to our party list andwe'll send you all sorts of
different information of what'sgoing on in our world.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
And also, if you did want to find out a little bit
more information about surrogacy, we will pop those links onto
our Instagram post about thisepisode.
So head on to that post, giveit a little like and scroll down
and get more information.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
For sure, for sure.
And if you do have any otherquestions that you want to ask
us, or if, maybe, if you've beenthrough it yourself and you
want to write in with yourstories, please do head into our
dms.
But, like I said, that's all wehave time for in this week's
episode of my big a podcast.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Until next time john j, do you want to do it with us?
Oh, my god here we go and seeyou.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Next I'll go again, but, like I said, podcast,
that's all we have time for inthis week's episode of my big
day podcast.
Until next time.
John Right, you have been doingit for six seasons.
You should know what you'redoing.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
John, do you know when you're coming in?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yes, Right, here we go.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
All together.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
But, like I said, podcast is all we have time for
in this week's episode of nextWednesday.
Oh my goodness, chaos, chaos,thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Thank you.
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