July 19, 2024 • 60 mins
In this episode, John and Mark's discussion ranges from the philosophical themes inspired by "Groundhog Day" to pondering whether intelligent alien species would be considered children of God. Can the gospel be preached to alien beings? What are the theological implications of extraterrestrial life? They also reflect on how Christ’s redemptive act might manifest across different species and the perception of Christ in heaven. Sci-fi fans and theology enthusiasts alike will find this segment particularly intriguing.
Finally, they tackle the profound topic of integrating spiritual and theological reading into everyday life, with practical tips drawn from their own experiences. They ponder details around the Assumption of Mary and consider the significance of shepherds in the nativity story. Their conversation then turns to the reactions of biblical figures to divine encounters, with special focus on the silent obedience of Joseph. This rich tapestry of discussions promises to leave you both entertained and contemplative. Tune in for an episode that blends humor, deep philosophical questions, and spiritual insights!
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the my Friend the Friar podcast and
thanks for listening.
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release.
Thanks again and God blessRecord Is it working?
(00:24):
Yes, I hate technology.
Thanks again and God blessRecord Is it working.
Yes, I hate technology.
People who work in IT hatetechnology.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
It happens, people who stay on the phone all day
never want to take a phone call.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yes, no, I am positive.
I know Father Stephen and Ihave recorded whole episodes and
forgot to hit record orsomething like that, but I feel
like you and I and him we triedit one time and then something
went wrong and so we had to dothe whole thing again.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
We did it online.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Was it remote?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Yeah, we did it remote, and then he was in town,
so we had empanadas and had agreat morning, that's right.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
That's right, right.
I definitely want to get him tocome talk about liturgy.
I do too, that, oh my gosh, Ireally would.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I mean, one of my favorite things about your
podcast is listening to fathersteven and just leaving feeling
like I've been educated, I knowabout like so much of the, the,
the behind the scenes, so muchof like how does this all fit
together?
How does it integrate together?
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Um, which for me is always really helpful because
that's the way I tend to think,like I want to see the, see
those elements in the biggerpicture I guess when you got,
I'm gonna this is so unfair wayof saying this when you got
nothing else to do all day butsit around and contemplate
(01:50):
things and study.
I think that's actually hisvocation.
No, that guy, he is so boredall the time he does nothing.
I hope he's listening.
He does nothing literally allday long.
Um, what's the?
Speaker 3 (02:04):
nature of the charism of his order.
Again, is it content?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
sleeping in, um eating, uh, whenever you feel
like it.
Cutting wood, yeah, choppingbrockery.
Um watching battle on nine yeah, yeah, babble on nine.
And and uh, watching Babylon 9.
Yeah, babylon 9.
And I can't think on the spot.
I was going to try and make funof Star Trek or Star Wars or
(02:32):
something.
His sci-fi movies?
Yeah, the dude literally doesnothing.
Now, when you have as much,because he lives such a blessed
life, he has so manyopportunities to study and think
and learn, and so the guylearns.
He knows so much and the wayyou're like oh, I have to
(02:56):
relearn how to take notes when Iread stuff.
I think that's the only way hereads, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
And so, well, part of that's probably because he's an
itinerant preacher and he'sbecause he's so engaged in terms
of like supporting his order,yeah, in um, in holding retreats
and stuff.
He's also being blessed withthis opportunity to then start,
try to explain it and then youknow and try to sharpen that,
and so that's only going to makewhoever you are like you're a
(03:23):
teacher, you know, yeah, yeah,the more you have to try to
teach something, the betterultimately's only going to make
whoever you are like you're ateacher, you know the more you
have to try to teach something,the better ultimately you're
going to understand it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
And so it's almost he's moved a couple of times now
and it's like he has thispersonal library that kind of
follows him around because ofall the notes he's taken and all
the books that he's read andstuff like that.
And and he'll you just betalking to me?
He's like, oh, I think I got abook on that, you know, I mean,
(03:51):
and or I think I've got notes onthat.
Let me, I'll go find somethingand then send you an 11 page
long email, kind of thing.
Um, who does that?
But uh, but anyway, now I don'teven remember we're making fun
of yeah, I was picking on.
Now I don't even remember we'remaking fun of him.
Yeah, I was picking on him.
Now, I don't remember where Iwas going with it.
Oh, he knows so much, and sosometimes not because I'm a
(04:15):
super fan or anything I'll goback and listen to our old
episodes and it's just likelearning something all over
again.
Oh my gosh.
There's so much here that Icould listen to this over and
over again your episodes on theProtestant Reformation were.
That historical stuff blew mymind because I just I had no
idea the consequences of theRenaissance and we're literally
(04:38):
still dealing with it.
Yeah, it was amazing.
It's amazing stuff, that'sright, anyway.
Yeah, so we'll definitely haveto get him on.
You know something else thatI'd love to do?
I'd love to do a retreat atMary Lake, but I don't know how
(05:00):
to.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
I think we've even talked about this before, I
think we just need to get on thetrip list and start asking
people who would be up but Ithink what we talked about is we
need to set out here's when itwould be, here's how much it
would cost.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Here's what we're looking at thoughts it's just
beautiful out there, andespecially the pictures that
father sent me in the fall howlong is it drive?
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Five hours, that's not terrible.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, it's not Well for Texas, right?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
That's like going anywhere in Texas.
It's barely outside the border.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
And so because you can drive 12 and still be in
Texas, so it's not too too bad,it's just so beautiful.
It's so beautiful.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
But I thinkansas is.
I think it's an underrated gem,like every every picture you
see of arkansas.
You're like, wow, why doesn'teverybody live there?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
that's amazing I know it.
Arkansas is a silly place, umin my mind, because it's so
beautiful and you have family inoklahoma or you spend much time
up there I've been um to umbeaver dam um that's what it's
(06:12):
called, right, oh, beaver, uh,beaver's bend yeah, like broken
bow, like up there, yeah, yeah,yeah, we actually just that's
where we went a couple weeks agofor vacation.
It's gorgeous, yeah, um, butit's it's.
It's real similar to like smalltown, east texas kind of thing.
Oh, yeah, um, but it's likeeverywhere.
So it's.
It's weird.
You got like little rock whichis a decent size old town and
(06:34):
then everything else is justkind of east texas.
It's just kind of yeah, it's soit's.
It's such a an interesting placeto me, but it's gorgeous.
I would consider I, I wouldconsider living in Arkansas.
I don't know if I would, butI'd consider it at least.
Yeah, just because of howbeautiful it is.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
If I was the kind of person to have a summer home,
I'd consider that, althoughultimately I think Robin would
say, no, we're doing it in Tyler.
Tyler's not a bad little town.
It's where she grew up, isoutside Tyler, really yeah.
So I mean, she's got a lot of,a lot of heart for Pine East
Texas woods.
It's just, I mean, and it is.
It's insanely gorgeous outthere.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, yeah, that whole east side of Texas Is like
all up and down the I guessit's the Red River still.
Yeah, that's the eastern border.
You get down towards SamHouston and stuff like that.
It's just still so pretty, yeah.
So what's going on, man?
Are you still working in thesame place?
(07:36):
Are you still with USAA?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
No, I went to Wells Fargo.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Wells Fargo yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
So it's important to work with somebody who's got
your back Right, um, and I meanthere's lots of studies.
People don't leave jobs, theyleave managers, yeah, um.
So I've worked with a fewbosses who absolutely were
sponsors, like they wanted whatwas best for me and I knew it
and they saw value in me, theyappreciated what I brought to
(08:03):
the table, and that's like anyrelationship right.
Like you want to have that kindof a relationship where you
both see the good in each otherand you're both getting you know
being improved in thatrelationship.
And so I lost that when he leftand just, for various reasons,
(08:25):
did not want to stay, yeah,where I was at, and an
opportunity came, uh, came up to, to come join him and to help
him with that.
For me, like most of myprofessional life, like what
I've been interested in is howdo I help drive true
transformation?
to improve what's there?
Um, probably a part of mypersonal need to control things
and to make them better.
But, yeah, they're doing that,they're doing that, so I
(08:50):
followed him over there.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
So I've been a year over there.
Nice, nice, you're still inyour old pickup truck.
What's Grant driving?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
A Versa Note.
Hatchback Versa Note.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Nissan.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
So it's a Nissan Verso which is smaller, smaller
than you know the standard sedanis it?
Speaker 3 (09:09):
is it still four-door ?
It's a four-door um and ahatchback yeah um, but it was.
I mean, honestly, it's beenideal for him because you, you,
you fold down the seats in theback, you've got the hatchback
like he can move some stuff inthere.
He basically moved himself outof the dorm and, uh, into the
apartment with that grant's acool kid man.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah well, I say kid because your kids are supposed
to still be not anymore dude Imean 19 and 23 it's it.
It's so weird, is it?
Well, it's like we were justsaying like time goes by real
fast.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
It does.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Real fast.
I remember Sophia.
I remember teaching her I wasgoing to say teaching her to
ride her bike.
I think it was kind of acollective effort because she
got a lot of instruction fromvarious places, like her
grandparents and like her dad,dad and so lots of people.
I think kind of worked out.
But I remember working with herto get good at riding her bike
(10:04):
and it just seems like yesterday, yeah, you know, and I think,
um, I remember her drawingpictures.
I'd get the weirdest pictures.
Little kids make the weirdestpictures.
So I don't know what would youif uh, here here's a loaded
question If you could do, if youcould have done something with
(10:32):
your children while they were?
Speaker 3 (10:33):
younger that you didn't do, or you wish you had
done more of what would it be?
Probably especially whenthey're quite young probably
more of like family vacations tointeresting destinations,
because I got to do a few ofthose things when they got older
, like when they're teens.
They don't want to spend anytime with you anyways.
Yeah.
(10:55):
But like we went to Montanatogether to to big sky and that
you know, I've got a lot ofhappy memories from that and we
went to Rockport right beforethe hurricane tore it up For a
summer vacation and that wasbeautiful memories.
I got to go with Jillian whenshe was in sixth grade I think
to DC after I'd lived and workedthere, and it was a school tour
(11:23):
basically of all the sites Kindof wish I'd done more of that.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Did you know?
The one of the largest?
Largest is kind of a arbitraryterm, but one of the largest
trees in Texas is in Rockport.
Is it still standing?
Yeah, it's an Oak tree, andwhen I said so, when I say
largest, it's um diameter, yeah,just the diameter of the trunk.
It's just this massive old oaktree that just has a huge base.
(11:46):
But then it's not super talland it just sprawls out
everywhere.
You've been on A&M's campus.
Yeah.
There's like an engagement treeor something like that.
It kind of makes this littlebridge over a pathway and lots
of the kids like to get engagedunder it kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
That's not where Robin and I got engaged.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, where'd y'all get engaged?
At my apartment in BedfordPerfect.
It's no better place.
That's where Betty and I gotengaged At my apartment in
Bedford.
Yeah, in Bedford, that's soweird yeah random, no, but I
just learned that the other day.
It's either the biggest or theoldest or something like that,
(12:32):
but it's.
It's like they've gotdocumentation of it from I don't
know like spanish captains thatwere like exploring the gulf
coast and stuff way back in theday, because it's just this
massive, beautiful old oak treekind of thing.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Yeah, yeah so I have a much greater appreciation for
where we grew up than I did whenI was like in my 20s yeah yeah,
my 20s, it was just painful togo home, but now, like that's
such a beautiful area and it'sso full of history, and you know
, yeah, it's not like, it's notlike a big resort area but it's
(12:59):
a, it's a little arkansas, youknow, just it's this little kind
of silly place down there it'sI mean, you know, if you're not
from the coast like going into ahotel and it's smelling like
seawater is a little bit weirdyeah, yeah, I was having a
conversation with someone elsethe other day and they were.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
We were talking about what it would be like to live
kind of groundhog's day, thatthe same kind of day over and
over, and, over and over again,but just meaning nothing really
ever changes.
It's just day in and day out.
It's the same old thing.
If you lived on the coast, ifyou lived at a beach, would it
(13:36):
be so bad that nothing everchanges?
And the other people are like,oh yeah, eventually you just get
tired of it.
You'd be wanting something more.
And growing up down there forme, I was kind of thinking, yeah
, I don't think it'd be that bad, I don't think it'd be bad, but
I think you do take it forgranted.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
I remember we took a band trip to Colorado and
somebody like we were talking tostrangers, some other kids, and
they said, oh, you grew up onthe beach, like you must go on
the beach every day.
I'm like, do you go make buildsnowmen every day?
No, of course not.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Yeah, I mean so maybe when you're young you have a
certain perspective.
But thinking about it now, Idon't know as we, as you get
older, of like, oh, that's nice.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah, If it's the right, I mean if it's a happy
circumstance yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Because it's a very simple life down there.
It's very I kind of wish wellin Corpus it's starting to get a
little bit big, like300,000-ish, but I love the
little places like Rockport,port Aransas, ransas, pass,
these little fishing towns.
Yeah.
And I hope they always juststay like that, Because when you
(14:59):
get too big you kind of loseyour identity and it's or your
identity changes.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
I mean, it's kind of like with kids you know things
are going to change.
They do change, um, I thinkwhat was interesting about
groundhog day was, um, somethingchanged.
It was bill murray, I think youhad, didn't you do an episode
where y'all talked a little bitabout how, like, there was
people who talked about that'skind of an actually a fairly
Catholic movie?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
I don't know.
We talked about a lot of movies.
You do, I don't, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Maybe you do If you were trapped in that movie, if
you were trapped in the same day, every day, legitimately the
same day every day what wouldthat do to what you think about
God?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
I don't know if that was us, but that's a very
interesting see.
I think the reason I don't knowif that was us talking about is
because in my mind that's avery novel, interesting thought
to like.
Now I want to go watch thatmovie again.
But yeah, how you're the thingthat has to change, cause you
can't as much as you try tochange everything else, you
can't Right, you're not incontrol.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Well, and not only that, but when did he finally
start to find joy Is when hegave up on all of his past and
all of his illusions of controland started appreciating and
being grateful for theopportunities that he had.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yeah, well and yeah, and as he sought love more than
self right, and he's like youknow, was he's like I don't want
to wake, I don't want to go tosleep, because when I go to
sleep it's going to be over,kind of thing, right?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
so I hit the cord on the mic.
I think that's going to comethrough.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah, it's probably terrible.
We'll fix it in post-production.
I will have to say FatherStephen was a little bit
concerned about how you're beingeducated in your formation.
When you were asking me theother day about space aliens,
he's like oh no, what are theytalking about?
(17:06):
Surely?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
he appreciates, Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
So the question is yes, and I do think he's said
something on this topic alreadyin some early episode Did he
Maybe?
Speaker 3 (17:22):
I don't think so.
Well, if he did, I didn't makethe connection, but my question
was like I've got lots of, youknow, betty-esque kinds of
questions.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yep, why is it purple ?
Why is it purple?
That's what Father Stephenalways says.
Why is it purple?
That's a Betty question.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
If we knew that there were aliens and they were
intelligent, what would thatmean in light of the crucifixion
and resurrection?
In light of that, Would webelieve, for example, that they
each had a Christ who died?
(18:00):
And like I'm assuming, likethey're not exactly like us, you
know, I mean that doesn't meanlike they're tentacle monsters.
It may, maybe it means thatthey're Klingons or whatever,
but if they're not really of ourspecies, would it mean that
Christ would have to die as oneof them?
and rise Would it mean that, um,they're not truly sons and
(18:25):
daughters of God?
Would it mean, because thatdidn't happen, mm-hmm?
Would I mean we would still belike?
Obviously, we're told to preachthe gospel to all of creation
so we would still preach thegospel, yep, but what gospel we
preach, would we preach?
Would we preach?
But sorry, jesus didn't die foryour sins.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, you're like a dog, yeah.
So I say let's pull this apartand let's look at each piece.
I have another friend, stephen.
As Father Stephen says, youhave no other Stephens.
He's not possessive or anything, no, I have a Stephen I grew up
with real close.
(19:04):
Anyway, he had told me onceupon a time of this book, and I
can't remember the name of itfor the life of me, but what was
interesting, it was a sci-finovel, and what was interesting
about this book is there wereeither three alien races or
humanity plus two, I can'tremember, maybe it was, but I
feel like the number three iswhat's coming out my head.
(19:26):
So there's three differentraces and each of them had a
conception or an understandingof there being one God.
And that's part of this themeof this book is trying to
understand like well, if thereis this one God, do we all have
the same God?
(19:46):
What does that look like forall of us?
Speaker 3 (19:48):
I'll have to ask him what the name of the book is,
but anyway, so if so there is aseries written by Julian May
about basically higher mindpowers and she was greatly
influenced by Catholic thought.
Like she quotes Pierre deTalhard, like constantly, and
like one of her main charactersis Catholic who explains to her
(20:11):
son that the other races of thisgalactic milieu all had Christ
events in their history and theyall, you know, they all
believed, in one way or theother, that that was you know.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
That they had been saved that way.
Yeah, so something that so with.
So let's look at this.
Um, the the bible is oursalvation history, right?
Yes, it's not like scientifichistory, it's our salvation
history.
So the bible talks about howhumanity falls and how humanity
is saved, right?
So does that mean that thereare no other beings in the
(20:55):
universe that God made in Hisimage?
Not necessarily because itdoesn't talk about it.
Does it mean that they fell too?
Not necessarily, because itdoesn't talk about it.
Does it mean that they fell?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
too, Because I guess the question is did creation
fall.
Did God create more than onegarden?
Did he create more?
Than one creature, that wasboth physical and spiritual.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Because if creation fell like we like and a lot of
people say, well, that's whylions eat sheep or whatever
right Like things kill eachother, because creation changed
at the fall of humanity, butdoes that necessarily mean that
another race is fallen as well,or could they have been
preserved from it?
(21:39):
So if they were preserved fromit, then they don't need a
Christ figure.
If they if as creation, if theywere preserved, from it.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Then they would be living in communion with God.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
So that could be interesting.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Which, at least in this world, in this universe, I
think creation is fallen, like,I think creation, this creation
is, which doesn't preclude Godfrom having created other
creations, but I think,necessarily if they were on a
planet, in our universe, likethat's a part of this creation,
and we know that this creation,like the spiritual beings and
the corporeal beings, both fell.
Yeah, the spiritual beings andthe corporeal beings both fell.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, Okay.
So then, if that's the case,then Christ's crucifixion then
is redemptive to humanity, notcreation.
Right, that's the second comingwhen everything is redeemed.
And like re.
I mean not fish and trees andbirds, right?
(22:46):
So then the question is can youhave a conscious being, highly
intelligent, physical, all thatkind of stuff?
But are they necessarily madein the quote-unquote image of
(23:08):
God?
Well, I mean, so do they havethat kind of soul we know?
Speaker 3 (23:13):
that they have to have a soul.
We know that they have to seekto discern the.
We know that they have to have.
You know, seek to discern thetruth, they would likely have a
conscience, right I?
mean if we met like a bug racethat just you know, like I don't
think we you know, regardlessof how intelligent they appeared
, um, but I also like christdied once and for all for our
(23:38):
sins.
But we are made present, we arerepresented to that.
Every time we celebrate themass, it is because god is
outside of time, because god isnot constrained by time.
He created time.
I could envision a scenario inwhich you know, eight foot blue
creatures or whatever theavatars were, oh, yeah, yeah.
(24:01):
I can imagine a scenario wherethey had a Christ figure and
that passion was united, outsideof our comprehension, to the
one passion that it is all, onepassion that just occurred in
different places, because hispassion is occurring all around
(24:23):
our globe at the same time, 24hours, yeah, all the time, yeah,
so it could be possible.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
So the conundrum lies in if Jesus, if the human
Christ, was assumed bodily intoheaven and then alien Christ was
assumed bodily into heaven, noware there multiple Christs in
heaven.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Well, Christ on the road to Emmaus did not look like
Christ on the cross, and Christappeared to the apostles
multiple times in ways that theydidn't initially recognize the
gardener and all that kind ofstuff.
So if he could change his humanappearance.
Why couldn't he change hisappearance to be a big, tall
alien with a tail Like?
Why would we already know thathis, that our glorified bodies
(25:12):
will be so completely differentthan you know, than what we've
got?
Because of that reunificationwith God, because of the
restoration of justice andholiness?
Why couldn't he be all of thosethings?
Because the mystery there isn'tthat he became necessarily
human in heaven, it's that hebecame unified, like we are body
(25:38):
and soul in heaven, and nowthat means that God is body and
soul.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Do you think, by the way, I'm like I'm not, yeah, I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
As somebody who's in formation.
I probably feel like I have tosay I don't know if any of this
is doctrinally correct.
Yeah, astral footnote, yeah.
Yeah, I don't know if any ofthis is doctrinally correct,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Ashton's footnote yeah, yeah.
So I wonder if it would be likeyou're a human, I'm a space
alien and we're in heaven andI'm looking at Jesus and you're
looking at Jesus.
You see him as a human, I seehim as an alien, right?
Maybe our perception is suchthat it's particular to.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Or maybe you know, our perceptions will change such
that we'll see beyond the fleshwhen we're fully resurrected.
And like actually know eachother the way God knows us.
Actually see all of who you areand not be distracted by the
accidents of.
(26:33):
Well, you got a beard, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Or you're overweight.
You got 16 arms.
Yeah.
Or space alien eyes orsomething.
Yeah, I would look amazing with16 arms.
Yeah, that'd be cool, it isinteresting.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
What?
There was actually another hardsci-fi book by a Canadian
author I can't remember his nameand the entire premise of this
was we met these aliens.
By a canadian author I can'tremember his name and the entire
premise of this was um, we metthese aliens and the scientists
that were working with thesealiens were shocked to realize
they took the existence of godas a proven, undeniable fact, as
(27:09):
axiomatically true.
Like the aliens kept gettingconfused because the human
scientists were arguing there'sno such thing as god, like why
would you possibly believe that?
That's so unscientific, tobelieve that there's no God.
So I think about that sometimes, just because of the stuff that
I've read, and I wondered whatwould that look like?
And if they had no history ofthat, would we say, well, of
(27:34):
course they have no soul?
Or would the church say, well,of course they have no soul.
Or would the church say well,maybe they're just not yet
incorporated into it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
What if baptism, what if water, was deadly to them?
How do you baptize them?
You know what I mean.
So if they didn't have a Christfigure?
And then Christ's like well,you're welcome to join the
church, you're welcome to becomea son and daughter of Christ,
or, yeah, of God, but I can'tbaptize you because then you'll
(28:07):
melt or something like that, Imean as a thought exercise like
that would be interesting,although I mean the way that the
universe is constructed.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Like water is the universal solvent and it has
such weird property.
Like Lee Strobel, in the casefor a creator, goes on and on
and on about how bizarre wateris like physically and how it's
like yet another piece of theevidence of God, because without
water life wouldn't exist.
And water is such a bizarrething to have to exist that it
has to have been created.
(28:37):
So I think that it's unlikelythat that would be the case, but
, like if it was, um, I thinkthat we would have to say what
the catechism says, which is youknow, we, we have to put our
hope and trust in god'suniversal mercy.
Um, that the church puts itshope that nothing is beyond God.
(28:58):
The only thing that's promisedto us is baptism in water and
the spirit, like that's whatwe're guaranteed.
That doesn't mean that God'sconstrained by that.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
See, I think that those kinds of reasons are why,
if I had to pick a camp, if Ihad to pick a camp, I would say
that Jesus and the Bible and allof that tells just very
particularly of human salvationand faith history, right, and
(29:34):
that if there was another race,alien race or races or whatever
out there, that there would haveto be something particular to
them that made sense for them intheir faith history, in God's
creation and what their role iswithin all that.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
I think that's right.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't take any kind of
elitist view where it's okay,well then, you're just a
creature.
Well, you're not a creaturelike we are creatures, right,
Like you lack the soul that wehave, and so we're better than
you because we have Jesus andyou don't.
I think that would be veryunhelpful.
(30:16):
In the great grand scheme ofthings, it would probably cause
a war that we would loseProbably.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
But the thing that would set them apart
realistically is judgment,discernment, the ability to
think about thinking, some ofthe things that make humans
unique among God's creation.
Yeah, humans unique among god'screation.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, um, and I I imagine we'd have some
interesting sentence in thechurch.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
I imagine, though, that like what we would end up
with is if they were obviouslythinking creatures we would end
up with.
God told us to preach all ofcreation.
God is not limited by anythingthat he has created.
He's beyond his creation.
That's why he's the creator,and so we're going to do what
(31:05):
God told us, which is to preachto all creation, to spread the
gospel.
But I suspect that I feel likeif we came across a race,
especially if it was like aspacefaring race, somebody more
advanced than us, I feel like mygut is, they would have had
(31:26):
their own Paschal event that Godwould have manifested to all of
his peoples.
And the universe is so vast.
You have to wonder what if hecreated all of this just for us?
(31:46):
I mean, it's not necessary, wecould have been, I mean we would
have been fine, just you know,on the planet or in just the
solar system?
Or I mean there's so many juston the planet or in just the
solar system?
I mean there's so many.
There's so much more out therethan was needed for us to love
and adore him, and maybe it'sjust because of his vastness and
(32:09):
his greatness and hisomnipotence that he would create
such a vast universe.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah, I think about those kinds of things to a
certain degree.
The complexity of existence tome is one of the points where
that point to God's existence.
Right, and it would beinteresting if the entirety of
space is empty except for us.
It'd be very strange, though itseems like it wouldn't make
(32:37):
much sense.
Or like multiverses and stuff.
That would be kind ofinteresting too.
What if, in every version ofthe multiverse, Jesus still did
exactly like?
What if that was the one thingthat was consistent across every
(32:58):
single multiverse?
That Jesus died for humanity,instead of a version where we
didn't fall, kind of thing?
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Yeah Well, that's a hard one, I mean.
I think that, um, again, if, uh, because God transcends time,
because we know that, again,because God transcends time,
because we know that hissacrifice rebounded throughout
history, right, not just intothe future but into the past.
(33:29):
So much so that Mary was keptfree from sin, yeah, so much so
that those who are trapped in inhell were freed by jesus, yeah,
um, that it's.
I don't think it's possiblethat he didn't die for our sins,
because he is beyond time.
(33:49):
I think, ultimately, hisintrusion into our world and
into time is the, is the oddpart, right, that's the
specialty part, that's the, the,the discrepancy, the fact that
he died for us is and alwayswill be in a noise has been true
.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Betty sent me this, this thing on Instagram, as she
is want to do, and, um, it was.
Somebody was talking about cslewis and how aslan, is this
christ-like figure, kind ofthing?
Right, and whoever isnarratingi don't know if they're
(34:31):
quoting someone or if they're,you know what are the pieces
that they're connecting, butthey're saying what's the more
appropriate metaphor for Jesusin our lives is instead this
different author who had writtenthis book, and there's this
(34:51):
male character and what she endsup doing is she writes into the
story a character whorepresents her, the author, and
I guess is like the loveinterest of the guy.
But that's a more appropriatemetaphor for what God did.
(35:14):
He made creation and he lovedus so much that he wrote Himself
, he inserted Himself into ourstory and it was just a really
interesting way of thinkingabout God entering into our
reality through Jesus throughJesus and because he did that,
(35:43):
necessarily making us, in ourunified nature, a part of
divinity.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Which is, I think, probably the most flabbergasting
mystery of the church, is thatGod is human and divine.
Still yeah, forever.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Yeah, yeah, Cause you didn't have to do that.
No, it's so, it's so, it's it'sbananas, man, it's just that I,
I love our faith at on anintellectual level so much
because it's you can.
You can chew on it and chew onit, and chew on it and chew on
it.
You're never going to get allof it.
(36:25):
No, you're not.
Yeah, have you?
Have you read any of the churchfathers?
Not yet.
No, so I made the mistake of ofstarting and well, and so when
I say starting, the starting wasthe mistake and the reason it
(36:45):
was a mistake is because it waslike, oh yeah.
I'm going to get this guy's bookand this guy's book.
And now I've got a stack ofbooks that, like you were saying
when you're reading for thediaconate, like you've got to
take notes, started reading andI'm like, oh, I have got to
start over.
I have to pretend like I havenot even started because there's
(37:07):
so much there and I have toread it differently than any
other book you would ever read.
Yeah Right, like you pick upsome Catholic apologetic book or
something like that or somebodywriting about, like a Scott
Hahn book you don't have to everread.
Yeah Right, like you pick upsome Catholic apologetic book or
something like that or somebodywriting about.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Like a Scott Hahn book.
You don't have to take notes.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so it's just amazing.
So I've got like St Irenaeus,I've got Ignatius's letters,
I've got St Vincent, and it'sjust so now I, and it's just so
I.
Now I've just got this stack ofbooks and I'm sitting there
looking at these books.
They're like in in our office,like just sitting there, so I
see them every day and I'm like,okay, now intellectually I've
(37:45):
gotten to this point where it'sit's almost like getting hit and
you step back and you're kindof paused and you don't know
what you need to do.
Next kind of thing, um, but Istarted getting asked, betty, I
said, do you have, um, what theycall the little sticky note,
like tabs instead of like dogearring pages?
things are interesting, whateverthose little sticky note things
(38:06):
are yeah, I get the signaturetags yeah, yeah like different
colors of them and stuff I buythose all the time yeah, and so
now I've to.
I've just got to start over andjust start digging in, because
the thing that has been the mostinteresting to me is how
integrated it all is over time.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Yeah Well, but you can.
So, people, I think they getintimidated by I'm going to add
prayer to my life.
They get intimidated by I'mgoing to read these to my life.
They get intimidated by um, I'mgoing to read these books, um,
and we talked about how, likethat's not, you're not adding
that to your life.
That's an upgrade to replacesomething else.
The other thing that I havefound useful is, um, when I was
(38:47):
doing this training from the uh,stephen Covey, from the Covey
Institute, they talked about thepower of focus and they said,
look, if you go outside with amagnifying glass and a piece of
paper, you can catch the paperon fire.
Leave that paper out all dayand it's never going to catch on
fire.
You didn't create any newenergy.
You didn't do anything otherthan take a small fraction of
(39:09):
what was there and focus it to apoint and you set something on
fire.
So we could set our souls onfire if we just take a small
portion of our week and focus itand look forward to it as a
treat.
Like this is, I get to go backand do this and you know, if
(39:29):
you've got an adoration chapel,go pick an hour per week and
you're going to take your bookand you're going to sit with
Jesus and learn more about whathe's done in our lives.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Yeah, yeah, it's the same kind of concept with Mass.
Instead of I have to go to Mass, it's I get to go to Mass.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Right about the Sunday obligation under the
rubric of justice that whensomebody loves you that much, it
is just to return that love.
It is the only appropriate andhuman response is to return that
love.
And when somebody loves you asmuch as God loves you, giving
(40:12):
him an hour is the least of whatwe can do.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Yeah, no.
What other weird thoughts doyou have floating around?
Speaker 3 (40:22):
I talked to you about this one one time and I think
this one is simpler Is itpossible that Mary, is it
actually possible, logicallypossible, that Mary would not
have been assumed?
And the premise for thatquestion is Mary was preserved
from sin, which means that shecontinued to live in original
justice and original holiness.
(40:44):
The only reason death enteredthe world was original sin, so
is it possible?
She could have died, didn't shehave to be assumed into heaven
as a logical consequence of whatwe believe about?
Speaker 1 (40:59):
her, yeah, so I feel, though, I've either read or
heard something regarding mary,that and this is again, this is
one of those I hope fathersteven's listening, because he
can come clarify in a laterepisode notes like okay, before
we get, I got to correct allthese things at Gansley.
Yeah, we got to go fix someheresies here.
(41:19):
So I feel like, though, thatI've heard that she did die, but
assumed into heaven after herdeath Because she aged and aging
is.
You don't just age to a pointand then stop and stay there
(41:41):
statically forever.
You age to a point of decay anddeath, right.
So as she grew older, like didMary have the body of a
14-year-old forever, right whenshe, when Jesus, became
incarnate?
I think they probably wouldhave mentioned that in Acts if
that was true, probably so, thenshe has to have aged.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
The evidence for her assumption is partially
circumstantial, right Likethere's no shrine to her relics,
there's no talk at all aboutany of her relics, which is a
clear indication.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Which I find really interesting.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Yeah, a clear, clear indication that her body is not
known anywhere.
Yeah, so under that, it'spossible that the reason she
aged isn't because of her sin,but because of the sin of the
world around her.
I still think she might havebeen assumed into heaven Prior
to death.
Prior to death.
Mm-hmm.
And taken out of this worldlike been restored to her
(42:36):
heavenly body.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
So would it have been like falling asleep, as they
say in the in the uh the Bible,like our brethren who have
fallen asleep, kind of thing, Doyou think?
Maybe Mary just?
Speaker 3 (42:48):
went.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
I don't know when, night night, one time.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
I mean, this is all entirely speculative, but I
think about it and I wonder likeis it?
Is it even possible?
Like, could she have?
But I think about it and Iwonder like, is it even possible
?
Like, could she have been?
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Well, there's a lot of.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
If she hadn't have been, could she have lived to
300 years old and just you know,maybe her body was wasted away.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, there's a lot of scriptural support for, like
Mary was by far, and Jesus wasby far, not the only people who
were assumed bodily into heaven,right?
So Elijah, yeah, andextra-biblically I guess, but
still in tradition Enoch wouldhave been too, and so you have
these other characters who wereassumed into heaven.
(43:27):
So, then, it's not far-fetchedto think that Mary, preserved
from sin through Christ's grace,would be assumed into heaven,
and it's not something that wasjust made up 1,500 years later,
right, it's been part of thetradition Right from the first
(43:47):
century.
Yeah, so yeah, I just wonder ifshe so.
She would have had to havegotten old, or else somebody
probably would have saidsomething about it.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
Well, but maybe she matured.
I mean, you've known like60-year-olds who look like
they're in their 40s.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Oh yeah, Jerks.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
I mean half of them are actresses, right?
Yeah.
There's no way that woman's inher 60s yeah Right.
Yeah, like that that one?
There's no way.
That woman's in her sixties,yeah Um, but I I do wonder, like
is it, is it even logicallypossible that she could have
died if she was preserved fromsin throughout her life?
Is it even logically possiblethat she could suffer the
consequence of sin if she neversinned and she was preserved
(44:31):
from the original sin?
I do.
I do think, like the worldaround us, like she had to live
in this world, and it's kind oflike, you know, if you had to
immerse something clean in filth, like it's going to be covered
in filth but at its essence it'sstill in and of itself it was
(44:51):
clean.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Yeah, I wonder if the thing that I'm thinking is
maybe from the catechism too,but it's the way it's said.
At the end of her life she wasassumed to have it Like.
That doesn't explicitly saywhen she died.
Right Just means at the end ofher earthly life.
Yeah, I think it's thecatechism where I'm remembering
(45:13):
that.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
Maybe, but I think that.
Yeah we need something fathersteven's gonna come into guys
like the church has alreadywritten about this.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yeah well, of course and that goes probably not about
the aliens part, though yeah,yeah, I mean that's.
Speaker 3 (45:26):
That's too recent of an idea.
Get another few hundred yearsyeah, what else?
Speaker 1 (45:32):
I love the weird stuff.
I love the weird stuff.
I love the weird stuff.
Angels are still justfascinating to me.
Yeah, they are Just trying tocomprehend what it means to be a
purely intellectual, spiritualthing.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
I've got one for you, Okay.
So at the nativity, the hostsof angels came down and praised
God to some shepherds.
What do you think happened tothem after that?
If that happened to you,wouldn't you spend your entire
life following that familyaround?
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Yeah, and they just went back to work.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Yeah, I had an epiphany kind of moment one
Christmas, because that's thescene, right, and I don't
remember if it was somethingthat I heard in a homily or
whatever, but it just all of asudden, like it clicked that who
protects sheep, shepherds, andwho was sent to watch over the
(46:36):
baby Jesus Shepherds?
Why?
Because he's the Lamb of God,yeah, and just that mind-blown
kind of thing just couldn'tcomprehend.
I was like how have I neverheard or seen this or understood
this before?
But it was just so fascinatingto me that all the little
details that they all add upmake sense.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
But yeah, you would think if I mean, it's not like
somebody said, hey, this is themessiah.
Okay, great, it was glowing,lightning, bright angels came
down from heaven, yeah, andthey're like don't be scared
yeah, don't be scared, but weneed you to go to this place,
right?
Speaker 1 (47:17):
because every because every time somebody encounters
an angel, they're terrified andthey fall on their face and
they're you know, but you knowwho doesn't?
Mary right, which I also findvery interesting when gabriel
comes to her, she's notterrified no, well, maybe he
wasn't shining like lightning.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
um, could you imagine if somebody appeared to you and
they were as bright aslightning, like blindingly
bright.
That's so outside of your humanexperience you couldn't even
imagine.
And they're just standing theretalking to you while they're
glowing blindingly?
That would be incredibly scary.
(47:57):
It's so scary.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah, how can you walk away from that?
Speaker 3 (48:04):
What did they go do after they stay a couple days
and they're like all right, wegot, we gotta go back, jesus
just said come with me, and hegot some of those guys to follow
, like I would think that thatthat family would be following
them around.
Please, let us serve you.
Please let us you know he isthe.
We gotta tell you about what wesaw, because it's banana pants.
(48:26):
You're not gonna believe whatwe're about to tell you.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
There's a lot of instances I think I guess about.
Sorry.
There's a lot of instancessimilar to that in the New
Testament.
Who's the guy when they takeJesus?
Is it to be circumcised orwhatever?
And there's the old guy.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
Simeon.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Yeah, who's like, finally, I can die now because
here's On Anna too, yeah, yeah.
And so it's like, why wouldn'tyou if people could recognize
the priest in the temple whenhe's 12, if this kid is teaching
with such authority or talkingwith such authority?
Speaker 3 (49:03):
and then you're just like, oh was neat, go home, tell
your wife about it, like, andthat's it well, and maybe it's
the next verse that gives us thehint, because then it's um, you
know, he came away with maryand joseph and mary kept all
these things and pondered themin her heart.
Yeah, maybe mary is the onlyone who is not so broken that
she can see clearly.
Maybe we're so broken thatwe're still going to get
(49:25):
distracted.
We're still going to turn tosin.
We're still going to turn tolike.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Well, I still have to tend these sheep because I got
to feed my family tomorrow.
Yes, how many times have youstrayed after you absolutely
know God.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
We know the end of the story and we still sin.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Yeah, we know the end of the story and we still sin.
Yeah, yeah.
So that's probably all theexplanation you need, right?
There is like oh yeah, we'rebroken About Mary.
Betty always wants to know didshe know?
Did she know from the verybeginning that he was going to
be God, or just that there wassomething special happening?
(50:03):
Did she know at this point thathe was God?
Did she know he was going todie?
Like, at what point in time didhe, you know?
Did Jesus sit down with heronce when he was you know 16 or
something, and say hey, mom,just so you know, this is how
it's going to play out?
Speaker 3 (50:18):
Yeah, I think that part did not happen.
I think it goes back to theconversations you and Father
Stephen had about angels andperfect knowledge and perfect
intellect.
Is that our intellect is notperfect?
Mary's might have been,although she wasn't created an
angel, so I don't actually knowthat the church teaches about
what our intellect would havebeen without that.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
Adam and Eve seem pretty stupid.
Yeah, I think she wouldabsolutely have had imperfect
intellect.
Speaker 3 (50:44):
but perfect ability to consent Right, but not
perfect knowledge.
And so, of course, she knew,she put faith in what she had
been told and thereforeunderstood that he was the
Messiah.
But she, I think, hadabsolutely no idea about what
that was going to mean, which iswhy, twice Luke tells us, she
(51:10):
pondered these things in herheart, to like to to make sure
that we understood.
Even Mary yeah, it was bornwithout sin.
Even Mary had to consider thisthat God is constantly revealing
things to us that we are nevergoing to fully understand.
That's part of what's going tomake heaven not that single day
on the beach forever is that.
We're just going to continue tolearn.
(51:31):
We're going to continue tolearn more about him and about
his heart and about his love,and about ourselves and about
others.
Yeah.
And I mean I suspect that ourcuriosity will be be fulfilled,
but not in the way that we thinklike I really want to know
about these details.
Okay, fine, you're going tolearn about them, and then
you're going to be suddenly full.
(51:52):
I think it's going to be likewe'll know those things, but,
more importantly, we'll know howthat all of those threads weave
together into a single tapestryof God.
And seeing that picture will befulfilled.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
Yeah, it's like when you have like a really good
steak you're like, oh, this isso good.
Or when you're full but youstill want to keep eating
because it's so good.
Maybe that it's like you'refulfilled but you're not
satisfied.
You can never be satisfied.
It's more because you're withGod, so it's just nonstop,
forever.
Speaker 3 (52:25):
Well like being in a marriage.
Yeah, like you know, I love mywife and I'm joyful in her and
I'm you know I'm never going tobe done.
All right, I think we knowenough about each other.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Yeah, Fiend, yeah, howiend, yeah.
How much do you think Josephknew?
Speaker 3 (52:49):
What's interesting?
What's so interesting is henever speaks in the Bible.
He's never really referencedother than God told him what to
do and he did it with perfect,as far as we can tell, perfect
obedience, right, um, I think,implicitly, there was something
(53:11):
there, because he took somebodyto wife that he normally
wouldn't like, none of his peerswould have.
He did it in a way thatprotected her, in a way that
most of his peers probably wouldnot have like, or rather, he
was going to divorce her in away that protected her, in a way
that none of his peers wouldhave.
(53:31):
He took, he took the word fromthe angel in a dream of the most
preposterous thing you couldhear, and said okay, and then,
like when they said, get up, goto Egypt, he did Um, I think he
(53:53):
must have, I think he must haverealized that something was
happening far beyond his ken andthat, um, he fell back on trust
and obedience to god, whichseemed to be a big part of his
character, of his makeup.
I I mean I think that's, that'sprobably that.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
That that great, that great trust in god is probably
his primary virtue yeah, becauseit is because mary having yeah,
because Mary having thatfreedom from sin has the ability
to perfectly assent to what Godis inviting her to right.
Joseph doesn't have that.
Speaker 3 (54:35):
We weren't told that he does.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Yeah, there is a lot of early church tradition.
They wondered if he had beenassumed into heaven too, because
again, there's no body oranything like that.
Um, and how can you be thatkind of parent figure without
some supernatural help?
And I don't necessarily thinkyou have to be free from sin to
have that supernatural help.
Speaker 3 (54:56):
We get it every day.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
But I think a lot of what that must've been like and
how much he understood and howmuch he just was like Lord, I
trust you.
Whatever in the world is goingon right here, I'm going to keep
trusting you, right.
Well, and he, because you'reliterally the only one in that
family who can mess up, you know.
Speaker 3 (55:20):
Well, he, but okay, so he.
You know that's Iron sharpensiron, so he probably lived up to
the standard of who he was.
What's the saying that you'rethe average of the five people
you spend the most time with?
Yep Like?
His average was probably a lothigher than the rest of us.
Speaker 1 (55:35):
Oh, that's a.
That's a.
I've never thought of that.
That's probably a very good,very good point.
Speaker 3 (55:40):
But I think I don't think it's necessary that he was
assumed to heaven, because ifhe died before Christ started
his ministry, before Christ was30, then he's just an anonymous
carpenter who died Right, justlike so many people around him
(56:05):
and then, like Mary's, different, mary was there for the whole
time, mary's there at pentecost,mary was there at the cross,
mary was um given to the worldas their mother, like I think
that that's.
You know, that's somewhatdifferent because they were
there for this, the whole story.
Yeah, um, but it is, I think's,beautiful.
I think our separated brethrenare poor for the lack of
devotion to saints, because oftheir examples to us, and St
(56:28):
Joseph's example as aself-sacrificing father, as
somebody who puts their trustfully, I mean man, like I need
that every single day.
Speaker 1 (56:39):
Yeah, yeah, well.
And Mary?
I don't think there's aninstance in the Bible where Mary
doesn't ask something and Godfulfills it right.
Or Jesus as God fulfills it,even and to have.
And Jesus obviously would havehad love for his mama and the
thought that she watched him inhis crucifixion and she never
(57:06):
once asked for him to stop herpain.
Yeah, because you know he couldhave Right.
Speaker 3 (57:12):
But she also.
I mean she had a heads up from.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
Simeon, yeah, yeah, yeah, the sword will pierce you,
or something like that.
Yeah, it's so much to Yep.
Hmm, it's so much to ponder,yeah.
It is Well, man.
We've been talking for a minutenow, so I think we're probably
(57:36):
good for a little bit.
I do want to get Father to comeand talk with us on liturgy.
Maybe we'll go out and visithim.
That'll be fun.
When's the?
Last time you've been at MountCarmel.
I've never been to Mount Carmel.
You've never been to MountCarmel.
Alright, Father Stephen.
Speaker 3 (57:48):
Some of us aren't, you know, favorites.
I think that would be fantasticand I would love to talk about
the Berg's book, but alsoCardinal Ratzinger's book,
because I think that I thinkthat the idea.
So, if you read Rome, sweethome, Scott Hahn talks about
liturgy and kind of howimportant it was and that's not
(58:08):
really something for Protestants, you know, and so like people
thought he was turning Catholicbecause of it, and um, and when
you think about the thoughtsthat Pope Benedict gave us, um,
and that the church has given usabout the importance of
literature, I think it just it'sit.
It convinces you that that whathappens in mass is important,
(58:33):
what happens at mass is moreimportant than anything else,
and like, that's why reverenceis so important.
That's why active participationor actual participation is
actually how it translates.
That's why that's so importantis because there's something
happening there.
That is what we were destinedfor what we were made for and
(58:53):
we're getting that chancefinally to at least in part
participate in it.
It should be the very center ofour universe, because it is the
center of the universe.
Yeah.
I would love to do that.
I'd definitely make time forthat.
You know, when he's nottraveling.
Speaker 1 (59:08):
Golly, he just got back from Arkansas.
He's been to North Carolina,south Carolina.
He's all over the place.
They're sending him all overthe place right now.
So I know he's busy, but, yeah,we're definitely going to
squeeze some time in with him.
So, father, get yourappointment book out and pencil
us in.
Speaker 3 (59:29):
And also your show notes.
Yeah, the correctives.
Speaker 1 (59:34):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
All the blasphemies that weuttered.
Speaker 3 (59:39):
He's got to come back and say John, I need you to
stop teaching heresies, yeahRight.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
Well, thanks for joining me, man.
This is really enjoyed it.
This is good and everyonethanks for listening and we'll
see.
We'll see you next time, Bye.
Welcome to the my Friend the Friar podcast and
thanks for listening.
If you like my Friend the Friarand want to support us, please
consider subscribing orfollowing us.
If you haven't already done so,and if you found us on YouTube,
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release.
Thanks again and God blessRecord Is it working?
(00:24):
Yes, I hate technology.
Thanks again and God blessRecord Is it working.
Yes, I hate technology.
People who work in IT hatetechnology.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
It happens, people who stay on the phone all day
never want to take a phone call.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yes, no, I am positive.
I know Father Stephen and Ihave recorded whole episodes and
forgot to hit record orsomething like that, but I feel
like you and I and him we triedit one time and then something
went wrong and so we had to dothe whole thing again.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
We did it online.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Was it remote?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Yeah, we did it remote, and then he was in town,
so we had empanadas and had agreat morning, that's right.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
That's right, right.
I definitely want to get him tocome talk about liturgy.
I do too, that, oh my gosh, Ireally would.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I mean, one of my favorite things about your
podcast is listening to fathersteven and just leaving feeling
like I've been educated, I knowabout like so much of the, the,
the behind the scenes, so muchof like how does this all fit
together?
How does it integrate together?
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Um, which for me is always really helpful because
that's the way I tend to think,like I want to see the, see
those elements in the biggerpicture I guess when you got,
I'm gonna this is so unfair wayof saying this when you got
nothing else to do all day butsit around and contemplate
(01:50):
things and study.
I think that's actually hisvocation.
No, that guy, he is so boredall the time he does nothing.
I hope he's listening.
He does nothing literally allday long.
Um, what's the?
Speaker 3 (02:04):
nature of the charism of his order.
Again, is it content?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
sleeping in, um eating, uh, whenever you feel
like it.
Cutting wood, yeah, choppingbrockery.
Um watching battle on nine yeah, yeah, babble on nine.
And and uh, watching Babylon 9.
Yeah, babylon 9.
And I can't think on the spot.
I was going to try and make funof Star Trek or Star Wars or
(02:32):
something.
His sci-fi movies?
Yeah, the dude literally doesnothing.
Now, when you have as much,because he lives such a blessed
life, he has so manyopportunities to study and think
and learn, and so the guylearns.
He knows so much and the wayyou're like oh, I have to
(02:56):
relearn how to take notes when Iread stuff.
I think that's the only way hereads, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
And so, well, part of that's probably because he's an
itinerant preacher and he'sbecause he's so engaged in terms
of like supporting his order,yeah, in um, in holding retreats
and stuff.
He's also being blessed withthis opportunity to then start,
try to explain it and then youknow and try to sharpen that,
and so that's only going to makewhoever you are like you're a
(03:23):
teacher, you know, yeah, yeah,the more you have to try to
teach something, the betterultimately's only going to make
whoever you are like you're ateacher, you know the more you
have to try to teach something,the better ultimately you're
going to understand it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
And so it's almost he's moved a couple of times now
and it's like he has thispersonal library that kind of
follows him around because ofall the notes he's taken and all
the books that he's read andstuff like that.
And and he'll you just betalking to me?
He's like, oh, I think I got abook on that, you know, I mean,
(03:51):
and or I think I've got notes onthat.
Let me, I'll go find somethingand then send you an 11 page
long email, kind of thing.
Um, who does that?
But uh, but anyway, now I don'teven remember we're making fun
of yeah, I was picking on.
Now I don't even remember we'remaking fun of him.
Yeah, I was picking on him.
Now, I don't remember where Iwas going with it.
Oh, he knows so much, and sosometimes not because I'm a
(04:15):
super fan or anything I'll goback and listen to our old
episodes and it's just likelearning something all over
again.
Oh my gosh.
There's so much here that Icould listen to this over and
over again your episodes on theProtestant Reformation were.
That historical stuff blew mymind because I just I had no
idea the consequences of theRenaissance and we're literally
(04:38):
still dealing with it.
Yeah, it was amazing.
It's amazing stuff, that'sright, anyway.
Yeah, so we'll definitely haveto get him on.
You know something else thatI'd love to do?
I'd love to do a retreat atMary Lake, but I don't know how
(05:00):
to.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
I think we've even talked about this before, I
think we just need to get on thetrip list and start asking
people who would be up but Ithink what we talked about is we
need to set out here's when itwould be, here's how much it
would cost.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Here's what we're looking at thoughts it's just
beautiful out there, andespecially the pictures that
father sent me in the fall howlong is it drive?
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Five hours, that's not terrible.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, it's not Well for Texas, right?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
That's like going anywhere in Texas.
It's barely outside the border.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
And so because you can drive 12 and still be in
Texas, so it's not too too bad,it's just so beautiful.
It's so beautiful.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
But I thinkansas is.
I think it's an underrated gem,like every every picture you
see of arkansas.
You're like, wow, why doesn'teverybody live there?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
that's amazing I know it.
Arkansas is a silly place, umin my mind, because it's so
beautiful and you have family inoklahoma or you spend much time
up there I've been um to umbeaver dam um that's what it's
(06:12):
called, right, oh, beaver, uh,beaver's bend yeah, like broken
bow, like up there, yeah, yeah,yeah, we actually just that's
where we went a couple weeks agofor vacation.
It's gorgeous, yeah, um, butit's it's.
It's real similar to like smalltown, east texas kind of thing.
Oh, yeah, um, but it's likeeverywhere.
So it's.
It's weird.
You got like little rock whichis a decent size old town and
(06:34):
then everything else is justkind of east texas.
It's just kind of yeah, it's soit's.
It's such a an interesting placeto me, but it's gorgeous.
I would consider I, I wouldconsider living in Arkansas.
I don't know if I would, butI'd consider it at least.
Yeah, just because of howbeautiful it is.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
If I was the kind of person to have a summer home,
I'd consider that, althoughultimately I think Robin would
say, no, we're doing it in Tyler.
Tyler's not a bad little town.
It's where she grew up, isoutside Tyler, really yeah.
So I mean, she's got a lot of,a lot of heart for Pine East
Texas woods.
It's just, I mean, and it is.
It's insanely gorgeous outthere.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, yeah, that whole east side of Texas Is like
all up and down the I guessit's the Red River still.
Yeah, that's the eastern border.
You get down towards SamHouston and stuff like that.
It's just still so pretty, yeah.
So what's going on, man?
Are you still working in thesame place?
(07:36):
Are you still with USAA?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
No, I went to Wells Fargo.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Wells Fargo yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
So it's important to work with somebody who's got
your back Right, um, and I meanthere's lots of studies.
People don't leave jobs, theyleave managers, yeah, um.
So I've worked with a fewbosses who absolutely were
sponsors, like they wanted whatwas best for me and I knew it
and they saw value in me, theyappreciated what I brought to
(08:03):
the table, and that's like anyrelationship right.
Like you want to have that kindof a relationship where you
both see the good in each otherand you're both getting you know
being improved in thatrelationship.
And so I lost that when he leftand just, for various reasons,
(08:25):
did not want to stay, yeah,where I was at, and an
opportunity came, uh, came up to, to come join him and to help
him with that.
For me, like most of myprofessional life, like what
I've been interested in is howdo I help drive true
transformation?
to improve what's there?
Um, probably a part of mypersonal need to control things
and to make them better.
But, yeah, they're doing that,they're doing that, so I
(08:50):
followed him over there.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
So I've been a year over there.
Nice, nice, you're still inyour old pickup truck.
What's Grant driving?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
A Versa Note.
Hatchback Versa Note.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Nissan.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
So it's a Nissan Verso which is smaller, smaller
than you know the standard sedanis it?
Speaker 3 (09:09):
is it still four-door ?
It's a four-door um and ahatchback yeah um, but it was.
I mean, honestly, it's beenideal for him because you, you,
you fold down the seats in theback, you've got the hatchback
like he can move some stuff inthere.
He basically moved himself outof the dorm and, uh, into the
apartment with that grant's acool kid man.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah well, I say kid because your kids are supposed
to still be not anymore dude Imean 19 and 23 it's it.
It's so weird, is it?
Well, it's like we were justsaying like time goes by real
fast.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
It does.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Real fast.
I remember Sophia.
I remember teaching her I wasgoing to say teaching her to
ride her bike.
I think it was kind of acollective effort because she
got a lot of instruction fromvarious places, like her
grandparents and like her dad,dad and so lots of people.
I think kind of worked out.
But I remember working with herto get good at riding her bike
(10:04):
and it just seems like yesterday, yeah, you know, and I think,
um, I remember her drawingpictures.
I'd get the weirdest pictures.
Little kids make the weirdestpictures.
So I don't know what would youif uh, here here's a loaded
question If you could do, if youcould have done something with
(10:32):
your children while they were?
Speaker 3 (10:33):
younger that you didn't do, or you wish you had
done more of what would it be?
Probably especially whenthey're quite young probably
more of like family vacations tointeresting destinations,
because I got to do a few ofthose things when they got older
, like when they're teens.
They don't want to spend anytime with you anyways.
Yeah.
(10:55):
But like we went to Montanatogether to to big sky and that
you know, I've got a lot ofhappy memories from that and we
went to Rockport right beforethe hurricane tore it up For a
summer vacation and that wasbeautiful memories.
I got to go with Jillian whenshe was in sixth grade I think
to DC after I'd lived and workedthere, and it was a school tour
(11:23):
basically of all the sites Kindof wish I'd done more of that.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Did you know?
The one of the largest?
Largest is kind of a arbitraryterm, but one of the largest
trees in Texas is in Rockport.
Is it still standing?
Yeah, it's an Oak tree, andwhen I said so, when I say
largest, it's um diameter, yeah,just the diameter of the trunk.
It's just this massive old oaktree that just has a huge base.
(11:46):
But then it's not super talland it just sprawls out
everywhere.
You've been on A&M's campus.
Yeah.
There's like an engagement treeor something like that.
It kind of makes this littlebridge over a pathway and lots
of the kids like to get engagedunder it kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
That's not where Robin and I got engaged.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, where'd y'all get engaged?
At my apartment in BedfordPerfect.
It's no better place.
That's where Betty and I gotengaged At my apartment in
Bedford.
Yeah, in Bedford, that's soweird yeah random, no, but I
just learned that the other day.
It's either the biggest or theoldest or something like that,
(12:32):
but it's.
It's like they've gotdocumentation of it from I don't
know like spanish captains thatwere like exploring the gulf
coast and stuff way back in theday, because it's just this
massive, beautiful old oak treekind of thing.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Yeah, yeah so I have a much greater appreciation for
where we grew up than I did whenI was like in my 20s yeah yeah,
my 20s, it was just painful togo home, but now, like that's
such a beautiful area and it'sso full of history, and you know
, yeah, it's not like, it's notlike a big resort area but it's
(12:59):
a, it's a little arkansas, youknow, just it's this little kind
of silly place down there it'sI mean, you know, if you're not
from the coast like going into ahotel and it's smelling like
seawater is a little bit weirdyeah, yeah, I was having a
conversation with someone elsethe other day and they were.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
We were talking about what it would be like to live
kind of groundhog's day, thatthe same kind of day over and
over, and, over and over again,but just meaning nothing really
ever changes.
It's just day in and day out.
It's the same old thing.
If you lived on the coast, ifyou lived at a beach, would it
(13:36):
be so bad that nothing everchanges?
And the other people are like,oh yeah, eventually you just get
tired of it.
You'd be wanting something more.
And growing up down there forme, I was kind of thinking, yeah
, I don't think it'd be that bad, I don't think it'd be bad, but
I think you do take it forgranted.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
I remember we took a band trip to Colorado and
somebody like we were talking tostrangers, some other kids, and
they said, oh, you grew up onthe beach, like you must go on
the beach every day.
I'm like, do you go make buildsnowmen every day?
No, of course not.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Yeah, I mean so maybe when you're young you have a
certain perspective.
But thinking about it now, Idon't know as we, as you get
older, of like, oh, that's nice.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah, If it's the right, I mean if it's a happy
circumstance yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Because it's a very simple life down there.
It's very I kind of wish wellin Corpus it's starting to get a
little bit big, like300,000-ish, but I love the
little places like Rockport,port Aransas, ransas, pass,
these little fishing towns.
Yeah.
And I hope they always juststay like that, Because when you
(14:59):
get too big you kind of loseyour identity and it's or your
identity changes.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
I mean, it's kind of like with kids you know things
are going to change.
They do change, um, I thinkwhat was interesting about
groundhog day was, um, somethingchanged.
It was bill murray, I think youhad, didn't you do an episode
where y'all talked a little bitabout how, like, there was
people who talked about that'skind of an actually a fairly
Catholic movie?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
I don't know.
We talked about a lot of movies.
You do, I don't, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Maybe you do If you were trapped in that movie, if
you were trapped in the same day, every day, legitimately the
same day every day what wouldthat do to what you think about
God?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
I don't know if that was us, but that's a very
interesting see.
I think the reason I don't knowif that was us talking about is
because in my mind that's avery novel, interesting thought
to like.
Now I want to go watch thatmovie again.
But yeah, how you're the thingthat has to change, cause you
can't as much as you try tochange everything else, you
can't Right, you're not incontrol.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Well, and not only that, but when did he finally
start to find joy Is when hegave up on all of his past and
all of his illusions of controland started appreciating and
being grateful for theopportunities that he had.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yeah, well and yeah, and as he sought love more than
self right, and he's like youknow, was he's like I don't want
to wake, I don't want to go tosleep, because when I go to
sleep it's going to be over,kind of thing, right?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
so I hit the cord on the mic.
I think that's going to comethrough.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah, it's probably terrible.
We'll fix it in post-production.
I will have to say FatherStephen was a little bit
concerned about how you're beingeducated in your formation.
When you were asking me theother day about space aliens,
he's like oh no, what are theytalking about?
(17:06):
Surely?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
he appreciates, Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
So the question is yes, and I do think he's said
something on this topic alreadyin some early episode Did he
Maybe?
Speaker 3 (17:22):
I don't think so.
Well, if he did, I didn't makethe connection, but my question
was like I've got lots of, youknow, betty-esque kinds of
questions.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yep, why is it purple ?
Why is it purple?
That's what Father Stephenalways says.
Why is it purple?
That's a Betty question.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
If we knew that there were aliens and they were
intelligent, what would thatmean in light of the crucifixion
and resurrection?
In light of that, Would webelieve, for example, that they
each had a Christ who died?
(18:00):
And like I'm assuming, likethey're not exactly like us, you
know, I mean that doesn't meanlike they're tentacle monsters.
It may, maybe it means thatthey're Klingons or whatever,
but if they're not really of ourspecies, would it mean that
Christ would have to die as oneof them?
and rise Would it mean that, um,they're not truly sons and
(18:25):
daughters of God?
Would it mean, because thatdidn't happen, mm-hmm?
Would I mean we would still belike?
Obviously, we're told to preachthe gospel to all of creation
so we would still preach thegospel, yep, but what gospel we
preach, would we preach?
Would we preach?
But sorry, jesus didn't die foryour sins.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, you're like a dog, yeah.
So I say let's pull this apartand let's look at each piece.
I have another friend, stephen.
As Father Stephen says, youhave no other Stephens.
He's not possessive or anything, no, I have a Stephen I grew up
with real close.
(19:04):
Anyway, he had told me onceupon a time of this book, and I
can't remember the name of itfor the life of me, but what was
interesting, it was a sci-finovel, and what was interesting
about this book is there wereeither three alien races or
humanity plus two, I can'tremember, maybe it was, but I
feel like the number three iswhat's coming out my head.
(19:26):
So there's three differentraces and each of them had a
conception or an understandingof there being one God.
And that's part of this themeof this book is trying to
understand like well, if thereis this one God, do we all have
the same God?
(19:46):
What does that look like forall of us?
Speaker 3 (19:48):
I'll have to ask him what the name of the book is,
but anyway, so if so there is aseries written by Julian May
about basically higher mindpowers and she was greatly
influenced by Catholic thought.
Like she quotes Pierre deTalhard, like constantly, and
like one of her main charactersis Catholic who explains to her
(20:11):
son that the other races of thisgalactic milieu all had Christ
events in their history and theyall, you know, they all
believed, in one way or theother, that that was you know.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
That they had been saved that way.
Yeah, so something that so with.
So let's look at this.
Um, the the bible is oursalvation history, right?
Yes, it's not like scientifichistory, it's our salvation
history.
So the bible talks about howhumanity falls and how humanity
is saved, right?
So does that mean that thereare no other beings in the
(20:55):
universe that God made in Hisimage?
Not necessarily because itdoesn't talk about it.
Does it mean that they fell too?
Not necessarily, because itdoesn't talk about it.
Does it mean that they fell?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
too, Because I guess the question is did creation
fall.
Did God create more than onegarden?
Did he create more?
Than one creature, that wasboth physical and spiritual.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Because if creation fell like we like and a lot of
people say, well, that's whylions eat sheep or whatever
right Like things kill eachother, because creation changed
at the fall of humanity, butdoes that necessarily mean that
another race is fallen as well,or could they have been
preserved from it?
(21:39):
So if they were preserved fromit, then they don't need a
Christ figure.
If they if as creation, if theywere preserved, from it.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Then they would be living in communion with God.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
So that could be interesting.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Which, at least in this world, in this universe, I
think creation is fallen, like,I think creation, this creation
is, which doesn't preclude Godfrom having created other
creations, but I think,necessarily if they were on a
planet, in our universe, likethat's a part of this creation,
and we know that this creation,like the spiritual beings and
the corporeal beings, both fell.
Yeah, the spiritual beings andthe corporeal beings both fell.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, Okay.
So then, if that's the case,then Christ's crucifixion then
is redemptive to humanity, notcreation.
Right, that's the second comingwhen everything is redeemed.
And like re.
I mean not fish and trees andbirds, right?
(22:46):
So then the question is can youhave a conscious being, highly
intelligent, physical, all thatkind of stuff?
But are they necessarily madein the quote-unquote image of
(23:08):
God?
Well, I mean, so do they havethat kind of soul we know?
Speaker 3 (23:13):
that they have to have a soul.
We know that they have to seekto discern the.
We know that they have to have.
You know, seek to discern thetruth, they would likely have a
conscience, right I?
mean if we met like a bug racethat just you know, like I don't
think we you know, regardlessof how intelligent they appeared
, um, but I also like christdied once and for all for our
(23:38):
sins.
But we are made present, we arerepresented to that.
Every time we celebrate themass, it is because god is
outside of time, because god isnot constrained by time.
He created time.
I could envision a scenario inwhich you know, eight foot blue
creatures or whatever theavatars were, oh, yeah, yeah.
(24:01):
I can imagine a scenario wherethey had a Christ figure and
that passion was united, outsideof our comprehension, to the
one passion that it is all, onepassion that just occurred in
different places, because hispassion is occurring all around
(24:23):
our globe at the same time, 24hours, yeah, all the time, yeah,
so it could be possible.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
So the conundrum lies in if Jesus, if the human
Christ, was assumed bodily intoheaven and then alien Christ was
assumed bodily into heaven, noware there multiple Christs in
heaven.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Well, Christ on the road to Emmaus did not look like
Christ on the cross, and Christappeared to the apostles
multiple times in ways that theydidn't initially recognize the
gardener and all that kind ofstuff.
So if he could change his humanappearance.
Why couldn't he change hisappearance to be a big, tall
alien with a tail Like?
Why would we already know thathis, that our glorified bodies
(25:12):
will be so completely differentthan you know, than what we've
got?
Because of that reunificationwith God, because of the
restoration of justice andholiness?
Why couldn't he be all of thosethings?
Because the mystery there isn'tthat he became necessarily
human in heaven, it's that hebecame unified, like we are body
(25:38):
and soul in heaven, and nowthat means that God is body and
soul.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Do you think, by the way, I'm like I'm not, yeah, I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
As somebody who's in formation.
I probably feel like I have tosay I don't know if any of this
is doctrinally correct.
Yeah, astral footnote, yeah.
Yeah, I don't know if any ofthis is doctrinally correct,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Ashton's footnote yeah, yeah.
So I wonder if it would be likeyou're a human, I'm a space
alien and we're in heaven andI'm looking at Jesus and you're
looking at Jesus.
You see him as a human, I seehim as an alien, right?
Maybe our perception is suchthat it's particular to.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Or maybe you know, our perceptions will change such
that we'll see beyond the fleshwhen we're fully resurrected.
And like actually know eachother the way God knows us.
Actually see all of who you areand not be distracted by the
accidents of.
(26:33):
Well, you got a beard, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Or you're overweight.
You got 16 arms.
Yeah.
Or space alien eyes orsomething.
Yeah, I would look amazing with16 arms.
Yeah, that'd be cool, it isinteresting.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
What?
There was actually another hardsci-fi book by a Canadian
author I can't remember his nameand the entire premise of this
was we met these aliens.
By a canadian author I can'tremember his name and the entire
premise of this was um, we metthese aliens and the scientists
that were working with thesealiens were shocked to realize
they took the existence of godas a proven, undeniable fact, as
(27:09):
axiomatically true.
Like the aliens kept gettingconfused because the human
scientists were arguing there'sno such thing as god, like why
would you possibly believe that?
That's so unscientific, tobelieve that there's no God.
So I think about that sometimes, just because of the stuff that
I've read, and I wondered whatwould that look like?
And if they had no history ofthat, would we say, well, of
(27:34):
course they have no soul?
Or would the church say, well,of course they have no soul.
Or would the church say well,maybe they're just not yet
incorporated into it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
What if baptism, what if water, was deadly to them?
How do you baptize them?
You know what I mean.
So if they didn't have a Christfigure?
And then Christ's like well,you're welcome to join the
church, you're welcome to becomea son and daughter of Christ,
or, yeah, of God, but I can'tbaptize you because then you'll
(28:07):
melt or something like that, Imean as a thought exercise like
that would be interesting,although I mean the way that the
universe is constructed.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Like water is the universal solvent and it has
such weird property.
Like Lee Strobel, in the casefor a creator, goes on and on
and on about how bizarre wateris like physically and how it's
like yet another piece of theevidence of God, because without
water life wouldn't exist.
And water is such a bizarrething to have to exist that it
has to have been created.
(28:37):
So I think that it's unlikelythat that would be the case, but
, like if it was, um, I thinkthat we would have to say what
the catechism says, which is youknow, we, we have to put our
hope and trust in god'suniversal mercy.
Um, that the church puts itshope that nothing is beyond God.
(28:58):
The only thing that's promisedto us is baptism in water and
the spirit, like that's whatwe're guaranteed.
That doesn't mean that God'sconstrained by that.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
See, I think that those kinds of reasons are why,
if I had to pick a camp, if Ihad to pick a camp, I would say
that Jesus and the Bible and allof that tells just very
particularly of human salvationand faith history, right, and
(29:34):
that if there was another race,alien race or races or whatever
out there, that there would haveto be something particular to
them that made sense for them intheir faith history, in God's
creation and what their role iswithin all that.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
I think that's right.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't take any kind of
elitist view where it's okay,well then, you're just a
creature.
Well, you're not a creaturelike we are creatures, right,
Like you lack the soul that wehave, and so we're better than
you because we have Jesus andyou don't.
I think that would be veryunhelpful.
(30:16):
In the great grand scheme ofthings, it would probably cause
a war that we would loseProbably.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
But the thing that would set them apart
realistically is judgment,discernment, the ability to
think about thinking, some ofthe things that make humans
unique among God's creation.
Yeah, humans unique among god'screation.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, um, and I I imagine we'd have some
interesting sentence in thechurch.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
I imagine, though, that like what we would end up
with is if they were obviouslythinking creatures we would end
up with.
God told us to preach all ofcreation.
God is not limited by anythingthat he has created.
He's beyond his creation.
That's why he's the creator,and so we're going to do what
(31:05):
God told us, which is to preachto all creation, to spread the
gospel.
But I suspect that I feel likeif we came across a race,
especially if it was like aspacefaring race, somebody more
advanced than us, I feel like mygut is, they would have had
(31:26):
their own Paschal event that Godwould have manifested to all of
his peoples.
And the universe is so vast.
You have to wonder what if hecreated all of this just for us?
(31:46):
I mean, it's not necessary, wecould have been, I mean we would
have been fine, just you know,on the planet or in just the
solar system?
Or I mean there's so many juston the planet or in just the
solar system?
I mean there's so many.
There's so much more out therethan was needed for us to love
and adore him, and maybe it'sjust because of his vastness and
(32:09):
his greatness and hisomnipotence that he would create
such a vast universe.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah, I think about those kinds of things to a
certain degree.
The complexity of existence tome is one of the points where
that point to God's existence.
Right, and it would beinteresting if the entirety of
space is empty except for us.
It'd be very strange, though itseems like it wouldn't make
(32:37):
much sense.
Or like multiverses and stuff.
That would be kind ofinteresting too.
What if, in every version ofthe multiverse, Jesus still did
exactly like?
What if that was the one thingthat was consistent across every
(32:58):
single multiverse?
That Jesus died for humanity,instead of a version where we
didn't fall, kind of thing?
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Yeah Well, that's a hard one, I mean.
I think that, um, again, if, uh, because God transcends time,
because we know that, again,because God transcends time,
because we know that hissacrifice rebounded throughout
history, right, not just intothe future but into the past.
(33:29):
So much so that Mary was keptfree from sin, yeah, so much so
that those who are trapped in inhell were freed by jesus, yeah,
um, that it's.
I don't think it's possiblethat he didn't die for our sins,
because he is beyond time.
(33:49):
I think, ultimately, hisintrusion into our world and
into time is the, is the oddpart, right, that's the
specialty part, that's the, the,the discrepancy, the fact that
he died for us is and alwayswill be in a noise has been true
.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Betty sent me this, this thing on Instagram, as she
is want to do, and, um, it was.
Somebody was talking about cslewis and how aslan, is this
christ-like figure, kind ofthing?
Right, and whoever isnarratingi don't know if they're
(34:31):
quoting someone or if they're,you know what are the pieces
that they're connecting, butthey're saying what's the more
appropriate metaphor for Jesusin our lives is instead this
different author who had writtenthis book, and there's this
(34:51):
male character and what she endsup doing is she writes into the
story a character whorepresents her, the author, and
I guess is like the loveinterest of the guy.
But that's a more appropriatemetaphor for what God did.
(35:14):
He made creation and he lovedus so much that he wrote Himself
, he inserted Himself into ourstory and it was just a really
interesting way of thinkingabout God entering into our
reality through Jesus throughJesus and because he did that,
(35:43):
necessarily making us, in ourunified nature, a part of
divinity.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Which is, I think, probably the most flabbergasting
mystery of the church, is thatGod is human and divine.
Still yeah, forever.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Yeah, yeah, Cause you didn't have to do that.
No, it's so, it's so, it's it'sbananas, man, it's just that I,
I love our faith at on anintellectual level so much
because it's you can.
You can chew on it and chew onit, and chew on it and chew on
it.
You're never going to get allof it.
(36:25):
No, you're not.
Yeah, have you?
Have you read any of the churchfathers?
Not yet.
No, so I made the mistake of ofstarting and well, and so when
I say starting, the starting wasthe mistake and the reason it
(36:45):
was a mistake is because it waslike, oh yeah.
I'm going to get this guy's bookand this guy's book.
And now I've got a stack ofbooks that, like you were saying
when you're reading for thediaconate, like you've got to
take notes, started reading andI'm like, oh, I have got to
start over.
I have to pretend like I havenot even started because there's
(37:07):
so much there and I have toread it differently than any
other book you would ever read.
Yeah Right, like you pick upsome Catholic apologetic book or
something like that or somebodywriting about, like a Scott
Hahn book you don't have to everread.
Yeah Right, like you pick upsome Catholic apologetic book or
something like that or somebodywriting about.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Like a Scott Hahn book.
You don't have to take notes.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so it's just amazing.
So I've got like St Irenaeus,I've got Ignatius's letters,
I've got St Vincent, and it'sjust so now I, and it's just so
I.
Now I've just got this stack ofbooks and I'm sitting there
looking at these books.
They're like in in our office,like just sitting there, so I
see them every day and I'm like,okay, now intellectually I've
(37:45):
gotten to this point where it'sit's almost like getting hit and
you step back and you're kindof paused and you don't know
what you need to do.
Next kind of thing, um, but Istarted getting asked, betty, I
said, do you have, um, what theycall the little sticky note,
like tabs instead of like dogearring pages?
things are interesting, whateverthose little sticky note things
(38:06):
are yeah, I get the signaturetags yeah, yeah like different
colors of them and stuff I buythose all the time yeah, and so
now I've to.
I've just got to start over andjust start digging in, because
the thing that has been the mostinteresting to me is how
integrated it all is over time.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Yeah Well, but you can.
So, people, I think they getintimidated by I'm going to add
prayer to my life.
They get intimidated by I'mgoing to read these to my life.
They get intimidated by um, I'mgoing to read these books, um,
and we talked about how, likethat's not, you're not adding
that to your life.
That's an upgrade to replacesomething else.
The other thing that I havefound useful is, um, when I was
(38:47):
doing this training from the uh,stephen Covey, from the Covey
Institute, they talked about thepower of focus and they said,
look, if you go outside with amagnifying glass and a piece of
paper, you can catch the paperon fire.
Leave that paper out all dayand it's never going to catch on
fire.
You didn't create any newenergy.
You didn't do anything otherthan take a small fraction of
(39:09):
what was there and focus it to apoint and you set something on
fire.
So we could set our souls onfire if we just take a small
portion of our week and focus itand look forward to it as a
treat.
Like this is, I get to go backand do this and you know, if
(39:29):
you've got an adoration chapel,go pick an hour per week and
you're going to take your bookand you're going to sit with
Jesus and learn more about whathe's done in our lives.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Yeah, yeah, it's the same kind of concept with Mass.
Instead of I have to go to Mass, it's I get to go to Mass.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Right about the Sunday obligation under the
rubric of justice that whensomebody loves you that much, it
is just to return that love.
It is the only appropriate andhuman response is to return that
love.
And when somebody loves you asmuch as God loves you, giving
(40:12):
him an hour is the least of whatwe can do.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Yeah, no.
What other weird thoughts doyou have floating around?
Speaker 3 (40:22):
I talked to you about this one one time and I think
this one is simpler Is itpossible that Mary, is it
actually possible, logicallypossible, that Mary would not
have been assumed?
And the premise for thatquestion is Mary was preserved
from sin, which means that shecontinued to live in original
justice and original holiness.
(40:44):
The only reason death enteredthe world was original sin, so
is it possible?
She could have died, didn't shehave to be assumed into heaven
as a logical consequence of whatwe believe about?
Speaker 1 (40:59):
her, yeah, so I feel, though, I've either read or
heard something regarding mary,that and this is again, this is
one of those I hope fathersteven's listening, because he
can come clarify in a laterepisode notes like okay, before
we get, I got to correct allthese things at Gansley.
Yeah, we got to go fix someheresies here.
(41:19):
So I feel like, though, thatI've heard that she did die, but
assumed into heaven after herdeath Because she aged and aging
is.
You don't just age to a pointand then stop and stay there
(41:41):
statically forever.
You age to a point of decay anddeath, right.
So as she grew older, like didMary have the body of a
14-year-old forever, right whenshe, when Jesus, became
incarnate?
I think they probably wouldhave mentioned that in Acts if
that was true, probably so, thenshe has to have aged.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
The evidence for her assumption is partially
circumstantial, right Likethere's no shrine to her relics,
there's no talk at all aboutany of her relics, which is a
clear indication.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Which I find really interesting.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Yeah, a clear, clear indication that her body is not
known anywhere.
Yeah, so under that, it'spossible that the reason she
aged isn't because of her sin,but because of the sin of the
world around her.
I still think she might havebeen assumed into heaven Prior
to death.
Prior to death.
Mm-hmm.
And taken out of this worldlike been restored to her
(42:36):
heavenly body.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
So would it have been like falling asleep, as they
say in the in the uh the Bible,like our brethren who have
fallen asleep, kind of thing, Doyou think?
Maybe Mary just?
Speaker 3 (42:48):
went.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
I don't know when, night night, one time.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
I mean, this is all entirely speculative, but I
think about it and I wonder likeis it?
Is it even possible?
Like, could she have?
But I think about it and Iwonder like, is it even possible
?
Like, could she have been?
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Well, there's a lot of.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
If she hadn't have been, could she have lived to
300 years old and just you know,maybe her body was wasted away.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, there's a lot of scriptural support for, like
Mary was by far, and Jesus wasby far, not the only people who
were assumed bodily into heaven,right?
So Elijah, yeah, andextra-biblically I guess, but
still in tradition Enoch wouldhave been too, and so you have
these other characters who wereassumed into heaven.
(43:27):
So, then, it's not far-fetchedto think that Mary, preserved
from sin through Christ's grace,would be assumed into heaven,
and it's not something that wasjust made up 1,500 years later,
right, it's been part of thetradition Right from the first
(43:47):
century.
Yeah, so yeah, I just wonder ifshe so.
She would have had to havegotten old, or else somebody
probably would have saidsomething about it.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
Well, but maybe she matured.
I mean, you've known like60-year-olds who look like
they're in their 40s.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Oh yeah, Jerks.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
I mean half of them are actresses, right?
Yeah.
There's no way that woman's inher 60s yeah Right.
Yeah, like that that one?
There's no way.
That woman's in her sixties,yeah Um, but I I do wonder, like
is it, is it even logicallypossible that she could have
died if she was preserved fromsin throughout her life?
Is it even logically possiblethat she could suffer the
consequence of sin if she neversinned and she was preserved
(44:31):
from the original sin?
I do.
I do think, like the worldaround us, like she had to live
in this world, and it's kind oflike, you know, if you had to
immerse something clean in filth, like it's going to be covered
in filth but at its essence it'sstill in and of itself it was
(44:51):
clean.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Yeah, I wonder if the thing that I'm thinking is
maybe from the catechism too,but it's the way it's said.
At the end of her life she wasassumed to have it Like.
That doesn't explicitly saywhen she died.
Right Just means at the end ofher earthly life.
Yeah, I think it's thecatechism where I'm remembering
(45:13):
that.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
Maybe, but I think that.
Yeah we need something fathersteven's gonna come into guys
like the church has alreadywritten about this.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yeah well, of course and that goes probably not about
the aliens part, though yeah,yeah, I mean that's.
Speaker 3 (45:26):
That's too recent of an idea.
Get another few hundred yearsyeah, what else?
Speaker 1 (45:32):
I love the weird stuff.
I love the weird stuff.
I love the weird stuff.
Angels are still justfascinating to me.
Yeah, they are Just trying tocomprehend what it means to be a
purely intellectual, spiritualthing.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
I've got one for you, Okay.
So at the nativity, the hostsof angels came down and praised
God to some shepherds.
What do you think happened tothem after that?
If that happened to you,wouldn't you spend your entire
life following that familyaround?
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Yeah, and they just went back to work.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Yeah, I had an epiphany kind of moment one
Christmas, because that's thescene, right, and I don't
remember if it was somethingthat I heard in a homily or
whatever, but it just all of asudden, like it clicked that who
protects sheep, shepherds, andwho was sent to watch over the
(46:36):
baby Jesus Shepherds?
Why?
Because he's the Lamb of God,yeah, and just that mind-blown
kind of thing just couldn'tcomprehend.
I was like how have I neverheard or seen this or understood
this before?
But it was just so fascinatingto me that all the little
details that they all add upmake sense.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
But yeah, you would think if I mean, it's not like
somebody said, hey, this is themessiah.
Okay, great, it was glowing,lightning, bright angels came
down from heaven, yeah, andthey're like don't be scared
yeah, don't be scared, but weneed you to go to this place,
right?
Speaker 1 (47:17):
because every because every time somebody encounters
an angel, they're terrified andthey fall on their face and
they're you know, but you knowwho doesn't?
Mary right, which I also findvery interesting when gabriel
comes to her, she's notterrified no, well, maybe he
wasn't shining like lightning.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
um, could you imagine if somebody appeared to you and
they were as bright aslightning, like blindingly
bright.
That's so outside of your humanexperience you couldn't even
imagine.
And they're just standing theretalking to you while they're
glowing blindingly?
That would be incredibly scary.
(47:57):
It's so scary.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah, how can you walk away from that?
Speaker 3 (48:04):
What did they go do after they stay a couple days
and they're like all right, wegot, we gotta go back, jesus
just said come with me, and hegot some of those guys to follow
, like I would think that thatthat family would be following
them around.
Please, let us serve you.
Please let us you know he isthe.
We gotta tell you about what wesaw, because it's banana pants.
(48:26):
You're not gonna believe whatwe're about to tell you.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
There's a lot of instances I think I guess about.
Sorry.
There's a lot of instancessimilar to that in the New
Testament.
Who's the guy when they takeJesus?
Is it to be circumcised orwhatever?
And there's the old guy.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
Simeon.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Yeah, who's like, finally, I can die now because
here's On Anna too, yeah, yeah.
And so it's like, why wouldn'tyou if people could recognize
the priest in the temple whenhe's 12, if this kid is teaching
with such authority or talkingwith such authority?
Speaker 3 (49:03):
and then you're just like, oh was neat, go home, tell
your wife about it, like, andthat's it well, and maybe it's
the next verse that gives us thehint, because then it's um, you
know, he came away with maryand joseph and mary kept all
these things and pondered themin her heart.
Yeah, maybe mary is the onlyone who is not so broken that
she can see clearly.
Maybe we're so broken thatwe're still going to get
(49:25):
distracted.
We're still going to turn tosin.
We're still going to turn tolike.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Well, I still have to tend these sheep because I got
to feed my family tomorrow.
Yes, how many times have youstrayed after you absolutely
know God.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
We know the end of the story and we still sin.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Yeah, we know the end of the story and we still sin.
Yeah, yeah.
So that's probably all theexplanation you need, right?
There is like oh yeah, we'rebroken About Mary.
Betty always wants to know didshe know?
Did she know from the verybeginning that he was going to
be God, or just that there wassomething special happening?
(50:03):
Did she know at this point thathe was God?
Did she know he was going todie?
Like, at what point in time didhe, you know?
Did Jesus sit down with heronce when he was you know 16 or
something, and say hey, mom,just so you know, this is how
it's going to play out?
Speaker 3 (50:18):
Yeah, I think that part did not happen.
I think it goes back to theconversations you and Father
Stephen had about angels andperfect knowledge and perfect
intellect.
Is that our intellect is notperfect?
Mary's might have been,although she wasn't created an
angel, so I don't actually knowthat the church teaches about
what our intellect would havebeen without that.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
Adam and Eve seem pretty stupid.
Yeah, I think she wouldabsolutely have had imperfect
intellect.
Speaker 3 (50:44):
but perfect ability to consent Right, but not
perfect knowledge.
And so, of course, she knew,she put faith in what she had
been told and thereforeunderstood that he was the
Messiah.
But she, I think, hadabsolutely no idea about what
that was going to mean, which iswhy, twice Luke tells us, she
(51:10):
pondered these things in herheart, to like to to make sure
that we understood.
Even Mary yeah, it was bornwithout sin.
Even Mary had to consider thisthat God is constantly revealing
things to us that we are nevergoing to fully understand.
That's part of what's going tomake heaven not that single day
on the beach forever is that.
We're just going to continue tolearn.
(51:31):
We're going to continue tolearn more about him and about
his heart and about his love,and about ourselves and about
others.
Yeah.
And I mean I suspect that ourcuriosity will be be fulfilled,
but not in the way that we thinklike I really want to know
about these details.
Okay, fine, you're going tolearn about them, and then
you're going to be suddenly full.
(51:52):
I think it's going to be likewe'll know those things, but,
more importantly, we'll know howthat all of those threads weave
together into a single tapestryof God.
And seeing that picture will befulfilled.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
Yeah, it's like when you have like a really good
steak you're like, oh, this isso good.
Or when you're full but youstill want to keep eating
because it's so good.
Maybe that it's like you'refulfilled but you're not
satisfied.
You can never be satisfied.
It's more because you're withGod, so it's just nonstop,
forever.
Speaker 3 (52:25):
Well like being in a marriage.
Yeah, like you know, I love mywife and I'm joyful in her and
I'm you know I'm never going tobe done.
All right, I think we knowenough about each other.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Yeah, Fiend, yeah, howiend, yeah.
How much do you think Josephknew?
Speaker 3 (52:49):
What's interesting?
What's so interesting is henever speaks in the Bible.
He's never really referencedother than God told him what to
do and he did it with perfect,as far as we can tell, perfect
obedience, right, um, I think,implicitly, there was something
(53:11):
there, because he took somebodyto wife that he normally
wouldn't like, none of his peerswould have.
He did it in a way thatprotected her, in a way that
most of his peers probably wouldnot have like, or rather, he
was going to divorce her in away that protected her, in a way
that none of his peers wouldhave.
(53:31):
He took, he took the word fromthe angel in a dream of the most
preposterous thing you couldhear, and said okay, and then,
like when they said, get up, goto Egypt, he did Um, I think he
(53:53):
must have, I think he must haverealized that something was
happening far beyond his ken andthat, um, he fell back on trust
and obedience to god, whichseemed to be a big part of his
character, of his makeup.
I I mean I think that's, that'sprobably that.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
That that great, that great trust in god is probably
his primary virtue yeah, becauseit is because mary having yeah,
because Mary having thatfreedom from sin has the ability
to perfectly assent to what Godis inviting her to right.
Joseph doesn't have that.
Speaker 3 (54:35):
We weren't told that he does.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Yeah, there is a lot of early church tradition.
They wondered if he had beenassumed into heaven too, because
again, there's no body oranything like that.
Um, and how can you be thatkind of parent figure without
some supernatural help?
And I don't necessarily thinkyou have to be free from sin to
have that supernatural help.
Speaker 3 (54:56):
We get it every day.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
But I think a lot of what that must've been like and
how much he understood and howmuch he just was like Lord, I
trust you.
Whatever in the world is goingon right here, I'm going to keep
trusting you, right.
Well, and he, because you'reliterally the only one in that
family who can mess up, you know.
Speaker 3 (55:20):
Well, he, but okay, so he.
You know that's Iron sharpensiron, so he probably lived up to
the standard of who he was.
What's the saying that you'rethe average of the five people
you spend the most time with?
Yep Like?
His average was probably a lothigher than the rest of us.
Speaker 1 (55:35):
Oh, that's a.
That's a.
I've never thought of that.
That's probably a very good,very good point.
Speaker 3 (55:40):
But I think I don't think it's necessary that he was
assumed to heaven, because ifhe died before Christ started
his ministry, before Christ was30, then he's just an anonymous
carpenter who died Right, justlike so many people around him
(56:05):
and then, like Mary's, different, mary was there for the whole
time, mary's there at pentecost,mary was there at the cross,
mary was um given to the worldas their mother, like I think
that that's.
You know, that's somewhatdifferent because they were
there for this, the whole story.
Yeah, um, but it is, I think's,beautiful.
I think our separated brethrenare poor for the lack of
devotion to saints, because oftheir examples to us, and St
(56:28):
Joseph's example as aself-sacrificing father, as
somebody who puts their trustfully, I mean man, like I need
that every single day.
Speaker 1 (56:39):
Yeah, yeah, well.
And Mary?
I don't think there's aninstance in the Bible where Mary
doesn't ask something and Godfulfills it right.
Or Jesus as God fulfills it,even and to have.
And Jesus obviously would havehad love for his mama and the
thought that she watched him inhis crucifixion and she never
(57:06):
once asked for him to stop herpain.
Yeah, because you know he couldhave Right.
Speaker 3 (57:12):
But she also.
I mean she had a heads up from.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
Simeon, yeah, yeah, yeah, the sword will pierce you,
or something like that.
Yeah, it's so much to Yep.
Hmm, it's so much to ponder,yeah.
It is Well, man.
We've been talking for a minutenow, so I think we're probably
(57:36):
good for a little bit.
I do want to get Father to comeand talk with us on liturgy.
Maybe we'll go out and visithim.
That'll be fun.
When's the?
Last time you've been at MountCarmel.
I've never been to Mount Carmel.
You've never been to MountCarmel.
Alright, Father Stephen.
Speaker 3 (57:48):
Some of us aren't, you know, favorites.
I think that would be fantasticand I would love to talk about
the Berg's book, but alsoCardinal Ratzinger's book,
because I think that I thinkthat the idea.
So, if you read Rome, sweethome, Scott Hahn talks about
liturgy and kind of howimportant it was and that's not
(58:08):
really something for Protestants, you know, and so like people
thought he was turning Catholicbecause of it, and um, and when
you think about the thoughtsthat Pope Benedict gave us, um,
and that the church has given usabout the importance of
literature, I think it just it'sit.
It convinces you that that whathappens in mass is important,
(58:33):
what happens at mass is moreimportant than anything else,
and like, that's why reverenceis so important.
That's why active participationor actual participation is
actually how it translates.
That's why that's so importantis because there's something
happening there.
That is what we were destinedfor what we were made for and
(58:53):
we're getting that chancefinally to at least in part
participate in it.
It should be the very center ofour universe, because it is the
center of the universe.
Yeah.
I would love to do that.
I'd definitely make time forthat.
You know, when he's nottraveling.
Speaker 1 (59:08):
Golly, he just got back from Arkansas.
He's been to North Carolina,south Carolina.
He's all over the place.
They're sending him all overthe place right now.
So I know he's busy, but, yeah,we're definitely going to
squeeze some time in with him.
So, father, get yourappointment book out and pencil
us in.
Speaker 3 (59:29):
And also your show notes.
Yeah, the correctives.
Speaker 1 (59:34):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
All the blasphemies that weuttered.
Speaker 3 (59:39):
He's got to come back and say John, I need you to
stop teaching heresies, yeahRight.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
Well, thanks for joining me, man.
This is really enjoyed it.
This is good and everyonethanks for listening and we'll
see.
We'll see you next time, Bye.
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