September 13, 2024 • 57 mins
Join us for an engaging conversation with Father Stephen Sanchez, a Discalced Carmelite priest, who recently attended a Congress meeting in Boston. Father Stephen shares his experiences, from the joyful talks on the saints of Carmel to the camaraderie of the event. We even get a peek into the meticulous organization of his expansive library and introduce a new podcast feature that lets you, our listeners, send messages directly to us.
In our exploration of holiness, we dissect vital documents like Pope Pius XI's Casti Connubii and the Second Vatican Council's Lumen Gentium, revealing how every member of the Church is called to reflect Christ's holiness, regardless of their life situation. We discuss the shift from a hierarchical perspective to viewing the Church as a grace-filled community, and address the practical challenges and profound significance of living out this universal call to holiness in everyday life, drawing inspiration from Christ's love for His Church.
Lastly, we challenge the productivity mindset that often infiltrates our spiritual lives, transforming prayer into a checklist of tasks. Our reflections emphasize the value of unstructured, quality time with God, akin to the irreplaceable moments parents spend with their children. Delving into Teresa's profound themes of divine presence, we discuss how the soul houses the Trinity and how true holiness is a gift from God, not a mere moral achievement. Join us to embrace the journey to divine holiness, recognizing it as an invitation to participate in Christ's glory and love.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to our podcast friends.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you like our podcast andwant to support us, please
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release.
Thank you and God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me and myfriend the friar, father Stephen
Sanchez, a Discalced Carmelitepriest.
Good morning Father.
Good morning John.
I'm sorry.
I always look around when we'rein your library because all the
things that I don't notice thelast time I was here, I love it.
I love that it smells likebooks, books.
(00:46):
That's my favorite part, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Don't let Betty in here, because right now you
probably know where everythingis somehow.
But she would reorganize it andthen you'd know where nothing
is.
It'd be organized.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
but According to her understanding of how things
should be organized.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Because that's the only way there is right, Her way
.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Maybe.
Or I mean, how are theyorganized?
Do you all use the DeweyDecimal System?
I have no idea what they use.
She would probably like bustthat out.
She's like making a cardcatalog or something.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
There is a card catalog on the computer, is
there?
Yeah, that's so cool that's socool.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
All right, how was your trip?
Which one the one to boston oh,it was good.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
It was good.
You know, the the first fewdays were cool, like it was like
50s at night and 70s during theday, of course, but we weren't
outside or inside.
Uh, inside for the Congress,inside the Wakefield Marriott
Hotel Very nice, it's an olderhotel but it was very nice and
(01:52):
the Congress was great.
There's 350 participants.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
That's a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, so it's good.
And so we in the secular orderthere is.
So there's the three provincesand each province has their
territory and within theterritory you have the secular
order and it is organized sothat each territory, the secular
order, has its own provincialcouncil and one of the friars is
(02:18):
the delegate to the council.
So before we had the Congressmeeting we all flew in Wednesday
.
We had our own provincialcouncil meeting for the OCDS on
Wednesday evening preparing forthe next day's interprovincial
OCDS council meetings, for thethree councils of the three
(02:41):
provinces got together and so wedid all that.
That was from in the morningtill in the afternoon, and then
the afternoon there was aregistration for the Congress,
the people that were attendingthe Congress in the afternoon.
So it was a full day.
So Wednesday afternoon,wednesday evening, all day.
All morning.
Thursday, all afternoon,thursday afternoon, all day
(03:04):
Friday, all day Saturday untilmidday Sunday.
But it was very good.
There was a different friarsgave different talks on the joy
of Carmel, one on Teresa of theAndes, on Therese.
There was one of the nuns fromthe Boston Carmel gave a
presentation on one of the booksshe had written.
(03:24):
So it was a Zoom meeting fromher monastery.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So it was good.
I was going to say, yeah, how'dshe get?
Speaker 1 (03:31):
out.
Yeah, it was good.
That's cool, so how?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
many religious were there out of the 300?
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Probably 15, 20.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
That's cool.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yeah, so there was the friars, the presenter, the,
the delegates to the ocds, plusthe presenters, plus the, the
brothers in formation that arestudying in washington.
They're all helping witheverything, and one of the
brothers gave a very goodpresentation as well john
merrick brother john mary yeah,so it was good, was uh vladimir
(04:02):
there?
Yes, yes, Vladimir is there.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I want to meet that guy just because of his name,
vladimir Guadalupe.
That's so cool.
That's so cool.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Who's Teresa of the Andes?
There's so many Teresas.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I know so many Teresas in the order.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Teresa of the Andes.
The monastery is Los Andes, inChile, and so she entered.
She was from a very affluentfamily and she was, I think.
She was also a musician, shewas a pianist, and so she
entered the monastery and shelived a very heroic life.
(04:47):
She was very much in love withChrist, and so she has a couple
of things.
Not a whole lot is written, butTeresa of the Andes, she was
recently, I don't know howrecently.
I forget now Everything,anything before yesterday.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
I live in that kind of a space and time thing.
Those are one of the morerecent saints of the order.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, maybe we'll just do an episode on her or
something, or maybe on some ofthem.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
The different saints of karma.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, that'd be cool, that'd be cool.
I almost forgot, but I wanted toremember the thing I told you.
Don't let me forget that wewanted to before we get going.
The fan mail thing, oh, yes,okay, so this is a new feature,
I guess is what you'd call it.
(05:40):
It's a new feature on theplatform that we host our
podcast podcast on and it itsends it out to, um, to all the
different players.
So it's so we we put it on oneplace and then it shares it with
, like, apple podcast andspotify and wherever all like a
(06:00):
lot.
We set up a lot of them, sothey're all over the place, but
anyway, um, so the, the one thatI'm going to use as an example,
uh, is well, no, not not thecontent, that's okay well, I
mean, I can too.
Um, but the apple podcast isbecause I have an iphone, so
that's what's on there.
So underneath the episode, likeif you scroll down and I'm
assuming it's something similarto that on everything else, like
(06:23):
spotify and whatever but if youscroll down below the podcast,
there's always a description ofthe episode and at the very top
it says send us a text.
And then at the bottom we haveour email address or like a
Google form people can click onand fill out to submit questions
.
But the send us a text is a newthing and we've never used it
(06:45):
before, so of course Bettystumbled across it.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
She's like what's this yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
So, anyway, what's neat about it is because most
people listen on their phones aswell and I've never tried it on
a computer, I've never done anyof that stuff but if you click
it on your phone it justliterally takes you into your
text messages and I guess wehave some kind of phone number
associated with our account toreceive the text messages.
(07:12):
But this is what's interestingabout it.
So you type in whatever youwant to type in in the text
message.
So it can be like hey, you guysare awesome, or hey, you guys
are terrible, or hey, I've got aquestion, or whatever and then
it sends it to um, it sends itback to like we, we just get an
email, we don't actually get atext message, we get an email
(07:34):
and then we can log into the,the podcast like platform
platform website thing and it'll.
It will just show thenotification that you've got fan
mail and um, the only I know alot of people in the world are
all like nervous about giving,like sending emails because they
don't want their email floatingaround out in space, Right
privacy thing, right yeah, yeah,yeah.
So what's kind of neat is whenyou do this.
(07:56):
So all it shows?
It shows the date that you sentit, it shows the location the
cell phone number is registeredin.
So Betty's is from Carthage,texas, okay.
And then it just shows the lastfour numbers of in the United
(08:17):
States, the way our phonenumbers are formatted.
It just shows the last fournumbers, and so she's put.
Woe to you if you ignore mywoeful request.
And then some little emojis,because all of the Gospels
lately where Jesus is like woeto you, pharisees and all that
stuff.
Yeah, yeah, and so anyway.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
The confrontation with the Pharisees and the
scribes.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
So I thought it was super neat.
So what I want to know isbecause?
So I thought it was super neat.
So what I want to know isbecause we get a lot of people
who listen from other countries.
Yes, I want to know if anybodyout there from let's see where
are the latest countries from,let me see Locations.
(09:00):
So the last five we havelisteners from Mexico, ireland,
japan, the United Kingdom,canada and the United States,
and I have no idea who y'all are, but we love all y'all and I
want to know what the phonenumbers look like.
So if anybody who hears this,especially I mean you're in the
(09:20):
United States, you can do it too, but we don't want to exclude
anybody.
But if you're from anothercountry can do too.
But, um, we don't want toexclude anybody, but if you're
from another country, I wouldsuper love if you could send a
fan mail, text message thing, soI can see what the phone number
formatting looks like um, andthen we'll just.
I don't know.
Next time we record an episode,we'll just see, you'll see.
Yeah, anybody's responded tothat give some shout outs yeah
and uh, you can leave your nameif you want.
(09:41):
Um, you don't have to leaveyour name, you can be completely
anonymous.
It was super cool.
We just wanted to point it outto everybody out there because
we're excited about it.
That's done.
We're going to try our best towrap this up Chapter 5 of Lumen
Gentium.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Finally talk on Chapter 8.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Is there more in Chapter 5, but we we're gonna
try and squeeze it in.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
We're gonna five the end we're gonna end with chapter
five.
Before we get, of course, I'lldo a little recap on six and
seven before we get to eight.
But okay, but because we reallywant to talk about mary, mary
this is all preparation for totalk the talk on mary and the
the image of the church.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Okay, ready to go.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Okay, so a real, as quick as a recap as I can give.
So we have seen, in the firstchapter of Lumen Gentium, it
deals with the mystery of thechurch and then, built upon this
presentation of the mystery ofthe church, we have chapter 2,
then that deals with theself-definition of those who
(10:49):
make up the mystery of thechurch, and that is the people
of God.
That's chapter 2.
So, continuing on then tochapter 3, from within the
people of God springs forth,those who are called to lead and
serve the people of God.
Thus chapter 3 deals with thepeople of God.
Thus chapter 3 deals with thehierarchy of bishops, in
(11:10):
building on those three chapters.
And we have chapter 4 thataddresses those who are the
bishops.
They are called to form andlead and serve, and that is the
laity.
So the purpose of the bishopsis to form, lead and serve, and
so who are they called to form,lead and serve, and that is the
laity.
So that's the last chapter thatwe covered.
(11:32):
So then, this now brings us tochapter five that explains the
purpose for the formation of thepeople of God and the reason
for the hierarchy's call to formand lead them, and that is
their call to form and lead usin the way of holiness or to
strive for holiness.
(11:52):
And so the chapter five isentitled On the Universal Call
to Holiness.
So this universal call toholiness is not something new
that the Council has thought up,but it is simply a recalling of
what has always been theteaching of Christ to be holy as
(12:13):
our Heavenly Father is holy,since that is the Father's
perfection, perfect holiness,and that is expressed in the
angelic proclamation of the OldTestament holy, holy, holy,
right.
That's the way they try toexpress that total otherness of
God and that holiness of God.
(12:35):
And then Pius XI touched uponour call to holiness, or he
begins to expound on or recallthe holiness of our occult in
his 1930 encyclical Casti Conubi, which is on chaste wedlock
right, chastity within marriage.
What does that mean?
Chastity does not mean celibacywithin marriage, because that
(12:56):
would not make sense.
But the chastity is how do Ikeep a chaste relationship with
my spouse and I don't commit thesin of lust against my spouse,
right?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
How do?
Speaker 1 (13:04):
I maintain that chaste relationship, that
relationship of respect right.
It also dealt with Kosti Kanubialso dealt with the question of
divorce, the question ofcontraception and the idea of
eugenics, which is very popular.
It was beginning to gainpopularity in the 30s and the
(13:26):
40s and that has to do withimproving the human gene pool
and we saw some of that inHitler's Germany, the idea of
eugenics and purifying the raceright.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, I have a strange feeling this is going to
start making a comeback too,with all the genetic advances
that have happened lately.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's very possible.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
So, then, quoting from Kosti Kanubi this is on
Christian marriage, and this isfrom paragraph 23.
Of every condition, in whateverhonorable walk of life they may
be, can and ought to imitatethat most perfect example of
(14:11):
holiness placed before man byGod, namely Christ, our Lord,
and by God's grace, to arrive atthe summit of perfection, as is
proved by the example set us ofmany saints.
So one of the things that PopePius XI is trying to bring up or
(14:32):
recall, is that there is thiscall to sanctity that we all
have an obligation to, and sothis is something, then, that we
need to kind of remindourselves of.
Right, and so this is what theCouncil builds upon is this idea
of holiness and holiness on allwalks of life.
So let's recall that theCouncil Fathers began this
(14:54):
document with chapter one thatspeaks of the mystery of the
Church founded by and in Christ,and that it is in Christ that
the call of holiness originates.
So this is from paragraph oneof Lumen Gentium, number one
Christ is the light of nations.
(15:16):
Lumen Gentium, because this isso, this sacred synod, gathered
together in the Holy Spirit,eagerly desires, by proclaiming
the gospel to every creature, tobring the light of Christ to
all a light brightly visible onthe countenance of the Church,
(15:38):
an instrument both of a veryclosely knit union with God and
of the unity of the whole humanrace.
It desires now to unfold morefully, to the faithful of the
Church and to the whole world,its own inner nature and
universal mission.
(15:58):
Then, number eight by the powerof the risen Lord, it is given
strength that it might, inpatience and in love, overcome
its sorrows and challenges, bothwithin itself and from without,
and that it might reveal to theworld faithfully, though darkly
, meaning imperfectly, themystery of its Lord until in the
(16:19):
end it will be manifested infull light.
It will be manifested in fulllight, in full light.
So one of the things that theimage that is used is in that we
as church, as community andbride of Christ, as we are
facing Christ or we are in thisrelationship with Christ, that
the glory of Christ, theholiness of Christ, the holiness
(16:40):
of God, will shine upon thecountenance of the church, upon
the face of the bride, and wethen, as bride, are called to
reflect out into the world thisholiness that is reflected upon
the face of the church.
The holiness of Christ isreflected onto the face of the
(17:02):
church, and then we as churchshould reflect it out into the
world, and that's where thiswhole idea of the universal call
of holiness is coming from.
Again, going back to the wholeidea that we talked about,
whichever episode it was, on theprimacy of Christ.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
It's all about Christ .
It's all about Jesus, right,and how we, as bride of Christ,
we have to consider andseriously enter into a
commitment of holiness and tomanifest it to the world.
So that's in chapter 1.
So then, in chapter 2 of LumenGentium, on the people of God,
(17:39):
we have the reminder at the endof the article, paragraph 11,
reminder at the end of thearticle, paragraph 11, where it
states Fortified by so many andsuch powerful means of salvation
, referring to sacraments, wehave all these sacraments which
are aids to our salvation, ourredemption, our holiness, all
the faithful, whatever theircondition or state, are called
(18:02):
by the Lord, each in his own way, to that perfect holiness
whereby the Father himself isholy or is perfect.
So then, entering into the textof chapter 5.
So then, as we had discussedbefore, the original schema, or
the original draft, presented astrongly juridical and
(18:23):
hierarchical version, right?
And so we have here a quotefrom Frederick Wolfe.
This is a quote from his bookthe Call of the Whole Church to
Holiness.
So here we quote the author.
(18:44):
Concerning the first draft, itcontained special chapters on
resident bishops, on themagisterium of the church, on
authority and obedience and onthe relations between church and
state, which have all beenomitted.
So they're in other places now,in the documents of the Second
(19:08):
Vatican Council.
They're not in this document onthe church right.
Instead, the emphasis is nowlaid on the church as the work
of grace, but this must bemanifested by the holiness of
her members.
So Chapter 5 begins withparagraph number 39.
(19:30):
So the opening of Article 39restates the indefectible
holiness of the Church.
Because of Christ's holinessand his union to his bride, the
Church, the first part and thelast part of number 39
re-emphasize the universalnature of the call to holiness.
So the first part of 39.
(19:51):
Emphasize the universal natureof the call to holiness.
So the first part of 39.
The Church, whose mystery isbeing set forth by this sacred
synod, is believed to beindefectibly holy.
Indeed, christ, the Son of God,who with the Father and the
(20:12):
Spirit is praised as uniquelyholy, loved the Church as his
bride, delivering himself up forher.
He did this so that he mightsanctify her.
He united her to himself as hisown body and brought it to
perfection by the gift of theHoly Spirit for God's glory.
Therefore, in the Church,everyone, whether belonging to
(20:33):
the hierarchy, the formators, orbeing cared for by it is called
to holiness.
Now the last part of 39.
However, this holiness of thechurch is unceasingly manifested
and must be manifested, in thefruits of grace which the Spirit
(20:54):
produces in the faithful.
It is expressed in many ways inindividuals who, in their walk
of life, tend toward theperfection of charity, thus
causing the edification ofothers.
In a very special way, thisholiness appears in the practice
of the councils, customarilycalled evangelical poverty,
(21:18):
chastity, obedience.
This practice of the councils,under the impulsion of the Holy
Spirit, undertaken by manyChristians, either privately or
in a church-approved conditionor state of life, gives and must
give in the world anoutstanding witness and example
of this same holiness.
So here it's interesting.
(21:38):
So this last part of 39.
This holiness of the church isunceasingly manifested and must
be manifested in the fruits ofgrace which the Spirit produces
in the faithful.
So it's both again we go backto that both and right.
So it is being manifested andit must be manifested.
So there's a continualprogression and a continuing
(22:02):
call to this manifestation ofholiness right, and so it sort
of is in a very covert way, isspeaking also about consecrated
life.
Right, those that take theevangelical councils and they're
called to give witness of thisholiness, right?
So then, okay, now let's gointo the attainment of holiness.
(22:23):
It is unfortunate that in theWestern culture, especially in
the United States, because ofits business mentality and the
whole culture of possessingthings and achieving goals,
there has been amisunderstanding of the nature
and source of holiness.
Many people assume thatholiness is based upon a
(22:48):
personal effort to achieveholiness, this idea being that
it is an objective goal that canbe accomplished by those who
are truly willing to sacrificeand work at achievement.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah, that really stuck out to me Because, being
in America, everything is whatcan you produce, what can you
achieve?
Are you working?
Are you trying hard enough?
Are you pulling yourself up byyour bootstraps and all that
kind of stuff?
But last I checked, there'snothing I can do to make myself
holy.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
It's.
God makes things holy, jesusmakes me holy, holy Spirit.
So it's more about therealization I had.
Is that it's more about mywillingness to cooperate than
anything else.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Right, right, and I think it's important.
It's a very subtle thing andmost people are not aware of it
because it's such a subtle thingthing or it's.
It's such a cultural um, it'spart of our cultural life here
in the west, in the unitedstates, this whole idea of
(23:58):
achievement and productivityright, and that works fine in
your business.
I mean you should produce, Imean they're paying you a just
wage and you must give thatlabor for that just wage, and so
it's fine in that and it hasits place.
But when somehow,subconsciously or unconsciously,
it bleeds over into yourreligiosity or into your
(24:21):
understanding of relationshipwith God, then what happens is
this idea of productivity comesin and makes everything that
much harder, because I'm tryingto produce something that I'm
incapable of producing, becauseonly God can, only God is holy,
only God is holy.
And so the idea then that Ihave to achieve holiness, and
(24:42):
the idea that it's an objectivegoal, makes the journey that
much more difficult.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, and I like that you pointed out how subtle it
is, because by no means doesthat give me the um, I don't
know the scapegoat or whateverto.
Oh well, I don't have to trythen, because if that's again,
it comes down to my willingnessto cooperate that's the only
thing, I guess, if, if anything,that's the only thing that I
(25:09):
can possibly strive for, is anincreased willingness to
cooperate, no matter what thesituation is Right.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
But I have to be aware of the situation and what
I'm being called to amtask-oriented.
Am I bringing that sort oforientation into my religious
life, and religious as in afaithful discipleship, not a
consecrated religious, eventhough that applies there too?
Is it all task-oriented?
(25:45):
Am I task-oriented?
Okay, so I did this, I did this, I did this, I did this other
religious thing, so I fulfilledall my religious observances and
requirements.
Right and so, okay, I'm good,I'm done Like.
No, those things are very good,those things are aids and
they're helps, but the realconversion, the real sanctity,
(26:08):
the real holiness is a process,and so this is something that we
have to become aware of thatit's not a matter of the perfect
execution of tasks, it's.
Do I understand that thesacraments and sacramentals that
these are helps towards my ownconversion, my own surrender,
right?
So this whole idea of okay,like the primacy of the
(26:31):
Eucharist in the sacramentallife of the church, is more than
just celebrating the Eucharist.
It is a matter of am Isurrendering myself with the
bread and the wine, throughJesus Christ, to the Father?
Am I aware of the fact that Iam offering myself?
(26:52):
That is the celebration of theyear?
Yeah, it's not just.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
well, if I just keep, I'll just go have communion
every day, I'll go to daily massand all of a sudden I'll be
better.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Yeah, right, yeah, it's just, you can't do that.
It's more than that.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, and there's it makes me think of.
One other thing is and I don'tremember if it was back when I
was a teacher or if it'ssomething I heard about being a
parent, but the phrase wasbasically one of the best things
you can do for your kids orwith your kids is to just waste
time with them, yeah, and saythe right thing in the right
(27:29):
moment that helps them toachieve or whatever their goal
is, or to stay out of trouble,or to grow up to be wise.
You can want all those thingsand it's fine, but it's the
culmination of all the actualtime you spent with the person
that builds that relationshipthat even allows for the
(27:50):
opportunities.
And so, when it comes to God,it's the same thing.
Right, like I can go toconfession every day if I wanted
to, but it's not the actnecessarily.
It's the nearness to God, thatspending time with Him, drawing
near to Him.
That, I think, is more, I guess, efficacious than actually
(28:14):
doing the thing.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
I want to qualify that, because it should be
quality time.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yes, yeah.
So, like the wasting time, itdoesn't mean just sit there and
do nothing right, but it's justto be with that person.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Right.
So if you okay this whole idea,then let's take this example of
this parental relationship,right?
So okay, I want to be a gooddad, I want to be a good mom, so
I need to go spend time with mykids.
So I go and I sit with them andor you know whatever.
But my whole idea is okay.
It's not about the relationshipwith the child, it's about I am
(28:48):
fulfilling my task.
It's really it's about I amfulfilling my task.
It's really about me.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
I am fulfilling my task of being a good parent.
So, okay, I've checked that box.
Yeah, right, but are youeffectively present to the child
?
Is there compassion, is thereunderstanding, is there empathy?
All these things that aredynamic parts of a relationship,
and you can always go back toour episode and listen on
(29:15):
relationships, how importantthat is.
And so it has to be qualitative, because there are people,
again, if you have this taskorientation, even wasting time,
okay, so I'm going to go wasteone hour sitting before the
Blessed Sacrament.
So I go, and I go sit beforethe Blessed Sacrament in the
(29:35):
Perpetual Adoration Chapel foran hour and then, okay, then I
have given him an hour, right,and so then I go off, happy with
myself.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah, yeah, when really you missed it.
And you can apply that samething to, obviously to God.
You can do it to your spouse,yes, you can apply it with your
friends, anyone, whatever,Anyone, right.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
So, again, it is part of this whole idea, then, of
this relational aspect and thisquality time, of spending time
with the Lord, and so this isthe holiness part.
The holiness is it's not.
I shouldn't see it as a finishline.
There's a line I have to cross,and once I cross that and I
become holy, then I've arrivedand I can live my life again
(30:17):
Like well.
No, that's not the way youshould see it.
It is a continual conversion,it is a continual transformation
, and that is what this call toholiness is and that's how we
should understand holiness.
Right is that?
idea of continual conversion.
So it's worthwhile to rememberalso that, as I said earlier,
(30:40):
that only God is holy, and inthe Old Testament this is
expressed by what I referred toearlier as God being thrice holy
.
You know the angelicproclamation holy, holy, holy,
right that is.
It is a sanctity that is beyondour comprehension, and, built
(31:00):
upon that truth, the truth ofGod's complete and total other
holiness that is so other Ican't even understand what that
really is.
So built upon that truth isalso, then, the truth of our
adoption into God through JesusChrist, so that the true source
of holiness in the believingChristian is not himself, but
(31:25):
the very holiness of the triuneGod that dwells within of the
triune God that dwells within.
The holiness of the Christianis merely the Christian,
allowing the holiness of therisen Christ to shine forth in
and through himself herself intothe world.
It should not be understood asa passive participation, but an
(31:47):
active cooperation with thegrace that has given us to
remove all the impediments ofthe sanctity that is already
mine, and so by that I mean Ihave to look at myself and ask
myself what are the things in mylife that are keeping God's,
christ's holiness and jewelswithin me?
(32:09):
What are the things that arekeeping it from manifesting
itself right?
Is it my attitude?
Am I always looking forsomething to complain about?
Am I always looking forimperfection?
Am I always being critical?
Am I always doubting?
Am I always fearful?
Do I struggle withperfectionism?
All those things are thingsthat can impede, then, this
(32:34):
holiness of shining forth in ourlives.
Of course, again, that I do mypart.
I do my part of getting out ofthe way of God's holiness in my
(33:02):
life, and again, it doesn'tnecessarily mean the execution
of perfection.
Right now I'm thinking of,there is and of course now his
name has completely gone out ofmy head, but there is a saint
who dealt with alcoholism.
I think Lawrence.
(33:22):
It might be Lawrence is hisfirst name, I forget now, but he
and I was like wow, hestruggled with it.
He struggled with addiction, andso I go like, wow, he struggled
with it, he struggled withaddiction, and so I go like, wow
, and then he's a saint.
He's a saint, the church hasdeclared him a saint, and so
it's not about perfection orwhat we understand perfection to
(33:46):
be.
And this again goes back tothis whole idea of the Western
mind and that idea ofproductivity I need to produce
perfectly, I need to executeperfectly.
No, the perfection that we'retalking about is the perfection
of love, the perfection ofcharity.
That is the perfection that westrive for, or we should strive
(34:08):
for, is the imitation ofChrist's perfect love.
That is a perfection that wespeak of right.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
I think it was St Matthias is what I'm finding
online.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Matthias, as in the apostle.
Oh, no, no, no, yeah, what'shis last name?
Was it out with an H?
I don't remember now, yeah,yeah, yeah might be matthias,
okay.
So now I'm going to quote saintteresa of jesus, saint teresa of
(34:45):
avila, and I'm going to quotefrom her work in the interior
castle, where she describes thesoul as seven levels of degrees
of intimacy with the Lord, rightFrom the first mansions into
the seventh mansion, and theirdifferent degrees of commitment
to the Lord.
So this is from the firstmansion, chapter one, paragraph
(35:09):
one.
For in reflecting upon itcarefully, sisters, she's
talking to her nuns we realizethat the soul of the just person
is nothing else but a paradisewhere the Lord says he finds his
delight.
So then, what do you think thatabode will be like, where a
(35:31):
king so powerful, so wise, sopure, so full of all good things
takes his delight?
I don't find anythingcomparable to the magnificent
beauty of a soul and itsmarvelous capacity, capacity
(35:55):
Indeed.
Our intellects, however keen,can hardly comprehend it, just
as they cannot comprehend God,but he himself says that he
created us in his own image andlikeness.
And then, from the samemansions, the first mansions,
and this is from chapter 2,.
This is paragraph 3, excuse me.
(36:20):
It should be kept in mind herethat the font, the shining sun
that is in the center of thesoul, does not lose its beauty
and splendor.
It is always present in thesoul and nothing can take away
its loveliness.
But if a black cloth is placedover a crystal that is in the
sun, obviously the sun'sbrilliance will have no effect
(36:41):
on the crystal, even though thesun is shining on it.
Okay, so, comment on these twoquotes from Teresa.
Comment on these two quotes fromTeresa.
One is the magnificent capacityof the soul to be the dwelling
place of the Trinity, the factthat the universe that cannot
(37:12):
contain God dwells in the soul,and this indwelling, then, is
the source of the holiness thatwe're called to.
So how do I, how do I, how do Iconnect to that indwelling
presence?
How do I allow that indwellingpresence to manifest itself in
my life in such a way that theholiness of God himself can
(37:33):
become present in the world?
Right?
So there's this treasure inthis earthen vessel.
So this is something, then,that we need to spend time
reflecting upon.
So, when it comes to the ideaof holiness and striving for
holiness, or the universal callto holiness, it's already mine,
(37:58):
it belongs to me because Goddwells in me, and so what do I
need to do to make sure thatthat manifests itself in my
relationships, in the way that Irelate to the world?
And so then she goes on to sayand that second quote, sort of
like the, the signing, the, thesunning shine the shining sun on
(38:20):
the crystal right.
So like if in um, the beginningof of interior council, she
talks about this whole beinglike a diamond, right, and how,
if the sun shines on thisdiamond, how it, how resplendent
it can be.
So it's, it's reflecting light.
It's not its own light, it'sreflecting light and it goes.
This goes back to this wholeidea of the bride of Christ
(38:44):
standing with Christ and theglory of Christ shining on the
countenance of the bride and hownow the bride must reflect this
glory into the world, and sortof that idea, then, of this
diamond that is sparkling.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Yeah, I really like that imagery too.
And again, thinking back to thechurch and thinking back to the
gospel, what Jesus says aboutmarriage he goes well.
That's why the two become oneflesh.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
So when they're one flesh, it's not two people
cohabitating, they are one thingRight.
And so if the church is thebride of Christ, then it's again
, it's like a logical necessitythat she is part of him and
she's going to reflect his light.
And I like the imagery of thediamond too, because anyone
who's seen a diamond and youshine light in it, it's just,
(39:34):
it's beautiful, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
And so there is also there is the idea that they're
too distinct and we don't becomeJesus, right, even though we
are united to him.
We do not become Jesus, but weare so united to him that in his
mind and in the church's mind,it's not Jesus and me, it's us,
(39:58):
it's we.
Their identity.
The identity changes from I towe.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Yeah, it's the whole, both and yes.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah, and so this is where this whole part, then, of
this universal call to holiness,and so that, because Christ is
such a generous spouse and is soother centered as Christ, as
the word of God, he's so othercentered that everything that is
his is mine, right, and Paultalks about this.
I already have all thetreasures in heaven in Christ,
(40:29):
right, and so he gives meeverything that is his, and so
part of that is his holiness.
And for us in the EasternChurch we talk about
divinization, so even his ownGodhead, he wants to share with
me His Godness, he wants toshare with me His Godness.
He wants to share with me andgive to me, and that is, then
the divinization of the church,of the bride of Christ, right.
(40:52):
So, and again, this is wherethe universal call to holiness
comes from.
It comes from going back to theprimacy of Christ and our
understanding of who he is, andthen our call to imitate that
holiness, that glory right he is, and then our call to imitate
that holiness, that glory right.
So then, continuing on, I haveanother quote here.
(41:12):
This is again from FrederickWolff, about this chapter on the
universal call to holiness.
The chapter opens with thedeclaration that the church is
indefectibly holy, so that theholiness of the individual is
always a mere participation inthe holiness of the church,
(41:37):
proclaiming as it must, theholiness of the church.
My holiness, or the holinessthat I'm striving for, is a
proclamation of the holiness ofthe church, which is a bride of
Christ and therefore united toChrist, and therefore the
holiness comes from Christhimself.
That's what all this is about,right?
So, christian holinesscontinuing on with the quote
(41:57):
Christian holiness is notprimarily, much less exclusively
, moral perfection, heroic humanvirtue, but primarily and in
the deepest sense, the glory,the doxa, the glory and the love
, the agape of God given to theredeemed without any merit on
(42:21):
their part, total gift, completeand total gift.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Yeah, and that just echoes back to what was said
about how, oh gosh, just thatyou can't earn it.
It's not something that youachieve.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
It's impossible, it is supernatural and I need
supernatural assistance,supernatural aid, and so I can't
do something supernatural.
And if I try to do somethingsupernatural, I'm going to
collapse, I'm going to breakdown because I cannot do it.
It's outside of my capacity.
And this is where a lot ofpeople get confused, in that
they think that moral perfectionright, it's about moral
(43:05):
perfection.
If I am morally perfect, I amholy.
No, no.
So another cross tells us ifyou allow yourself to fall in
love with Christ, a moral lifeand an ethical life follows
naturally.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard that before too
, and that's something that Ithink it's interesting the
journey that we go on as we growin our conversion and our
relationship with Jesus, becauseI'm sure you've seen too and
for me I guess it's not so longago that I can't remember it,
(43:41):
but it's like when you have thatmoment and and that first step
of conversion, and you're sozealous and you're just like I
want to do all these things, youknow, and then and that's fine
and that's good, yeah, but thenzeal is good, yeah, and slowly
you start to go well, man, I I'mmessing all this stuff up and
I'm still failing and I'm doingit all wrong, and and then that
(44:03):
slowly turns into therealization of, oh well, I can't
do it right.
And then you've got to grapplewith that, you know, and your
own natural inadequacies becauseyou're not God.
And then you're like well, Ithought I was over that, thought
that I was God, but I guess not.
And it just keeps continuing asyour relationship grows and I
just I think it's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Yeah, it is, and that's a critical point in
almost every disciple's journeyis that once I realize that I
can't do it on my own, I'm notin control, or I'm not as in
control as I wish I were, thenthe question is okay, can you
accept that in humility andallow your journey to continue?
(44:45):
Can you continue to strive,knowing that it all comes from?
Speaker 2 (44:50):
God.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
My desire for holiness comes from God.
My efforts at it come from God,even my desire to desire comes
from God.
It is all from Him and I thinkthat's really difficult for some
people because, again goingback to the culture, we're
taught to be self-sufficient,especially here in Texas.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Yeah, I was just saying I bet a lot of people get
stuck right there.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Yeah, we pick up ourselves by our own bootstraps
here, and so when you bring thatinto your relationship with God
, it messes it up.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
And so I tell people that the Catholicism in North
Texas is very different from theCatholicism in other parts of
Texas or the southern part ofTexas where real Catholicism
where I come from in San Antonioyeah.
So it's very different.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
It's very different, because here I think, the church
is surrounded by all these.
We're here in the middle of thebuckle of the Bible Belt, and
so there is a different way ofapproaching Catholicism that can
be influenced by the outsideculture, and instead of going
like, okay, no, I need to reallyfocus on the indwelling and the
(45:58):
truth of the indwelling, andthe truth that the sanctity that
I'm called to is Christ's andit's my mere participation in
his holiness.
And that makes the journey alot easier If I realize that and
recognize that.
It makes it a lot easier If Iknow that I already have it
within myself instead ofstriving for something outside
(46:19):
of myself.
Right, it's easier for me tolike oh, it's already mine.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Yeah, and that's such .
It's already mine, yeah, yeah,and that's such a kind of flip,
yeah, metaphysical, likeeverything you have to.
Everything will flip when youcan get there, but to grasp for
it you've got to spend so muchtime chewing on it before it
clicks.
I bet Peter would have been agood Texan.
He probably would have been agood onean.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
He probably would have been a good one.
Yeah, maybe that's where he wasreally.
He was really from.
Yeah, texas saint peter texasokay, and I think one of the
things again, this, this quotefrom Wolfe, and you highlighted
(47:06):
it here without any merit ontheir part traditional
traditions or whatever faithtradition you belong to.
There is this human tendency towant to merit and as catholics
(47:31):
we know we cannot, andprotestants know that as well.
But it's funny to me, it'sfunny that in both sides of that
camp those camps, you know,whether it's a catholic or a
protestant people try to meritwithout meriting and that is so,
uh like okay.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
So yeah, it's very it's.
It's to me.
It reminds me of speaking ofall the woes, betty.
It's very pharisee kind of yeah, thinking like the right.
He's like oh, you tie up allthe burdens, but you won't lift
a finger right so it's.
It's like they don't realizethat they are their own problem,
(48:12):
right?
So it's like well, I'm tryingto merit it without trying to
merit it, but I'm still doing itright and the other.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
The other extreme in that is, I become so aware of
the fact that I'm the problem.
I become so obsessed with myfact being the problem that I
still don't allow the grace tohappen because I'm so obsessed
with me.
Am I getting in the way?
Am I getting in the way?
Are my wounds getting in theway?
Are my traumas getting in theway?
And then that happens, and thenI still don't allow the grace
to work because I'm so obsessedwith myself.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Yeah, I think that was Martin Luther's problem at
the beginning.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Probably, yeah, probably yeah, there's a lot of
things going on there.
So, going on to number 40 ofchapter 5.
The Lord Jesus, the divineteacher and model of all
perfection, preached holiness oflife to each and every one of
his disciples, of everycondition.
So number 40, then, and modelof all perfection, preached
holiness of life to each andevery one of his disciples of
(49:07):
every condition.
So number 40, then, deals withholiness in different states of
life and how it should producedifferent things in us, and this
is a little synopsis of number40 is synopsis of number 40 is
(49:31):
holiness produces.
One, a more human way of life,and two, it produces an abundant
harvest of good.
So that's what number 40 isabout.
Excuse me and I have anotherquote here, and this is also
(49:53):
from Wolf the means ofperfection are stated that the
following of Christconfiguration to him, above all
in the readiness to serve and tolay down one's life for others
and therefore obedience to theFather's will.
So then, this is the questionit's not about my perfect
attendance, it's not my perfectrecitation of prayers, even
(50:17):
though all those things aregreat.
Attends at Mass, all those arehelps and means.
I'm not saying that youshouldn't do that I'm saying is
are those sacraments andsacramentals helping me to
configure myself to the image ofChrist in my readiness to serve
others and to lay down my lifefor others?
(50:38):
Right, that is the question.
How are these things helping mein that?
And then in number 41, there'ssome concrete ways of attaining
holiness and the perfection ofcharity, and that depends on
one's situation and duties.
This is what number 41 is about.
(50:59):
So there are some generalthings that can be said about
this.
One, we should use ourstrengths and talents as a gift
from Christ.
Two, we should follow Christand become like him, seeking the
Father's will in all things,the glory of God and the good of
(51:20):
our neighbor.
Three, we should use ourpersonal gifts and fulfill our
duties in the spirit of faith,working through love.
4.
We should receive all thingswith faith from the hand of the
Heavenly Father.
(51:41):
These four means of attainingholiness can be grouped into two
basic attitudes One, the spiritto accept all things as coming
from the living hand of God.
And two, the aim to do allthings in accordance with God's
will, out of love for him.
Okay, and it goes on to speakof paths of holiness.
(52:08):
Right as it can this chapterright the paths of holiness for
different vocations or states oflife.
So for bishops, the path toholiness is the perfect duty of
pastoral charity, episcopal care, service, prayer, sacrifice and
(52:33):
preaching, laying down theirlives for their sheep and the
promotion of greater holiness byexample.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
Okay, I think I have a strange feeling.
This last chapter, or this lastlittle paragraph right here, is
something that all of us shouldprobably take to prayer.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Yes, probably yes.
I would suggest that.
And the path of holiness forpriests to form the spiritual
crown of the bishops.
They're ordinaries, right?
So we're all under bishops,right.
So to form the spiritual crownof the bishops, priests should
(53:22):
grow daily in love of God andneighbor through the exercise of
their office, priestly,fraternity, and give witness to
all by an abundance of everyspiritual good, prayer and
sacrifice for the entire peopleof God.
Clerics, so it should beanybody that is studying, so it
(53:44):
would be permanent deacons,transitional deacons,
seminarians that are intheologate.
They're considered clerics orreligious that are studying for
priesthood.
They're considered clerics aswell, to be free from every vice
and are to be personificationsof goodness and friends of God.
(54:05):
The path of holiness formarried couples and are to be
personifications of goodness andfriends of God.
The path of holiness formarried couples Faithful love,
be a lifelong sustaining forcefor each other, form their
children in faith and virtue.
(54:26):
And for all those who suffer,their path to holiness is they
are called to unite themselvesto the sufferings of Christ.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
Okay, we made it.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
We made it to the end .
Speaker 2 (54:42):
Can you give us a little like set the stage now
why all of that was necessary?
So now we can talk about Mary.
Speaker 1 (54:55):
Okay, so the whole idea then of Mary remember, we
talked about the big fight atthe council was that they wanted
a separate document on Mary.
I wanted a separate document onMary and da-da-da-da.
And then the whole idea, thenthe work of the Holy Spirit, is
then that Mary be considered,since she is the first of the
redeemed, that her place isactually within the community of
belief terms of the mystery ofthe church, uh, the, who are the
(55:16):
people of god, and then who arethe formators of the people of
god and the, and the reason fortheir formation is to strive for
, uh or the laity, and then thatit's a matter of striving for
(55:39):
holiness for everyone in thechurch, in the mystery, and it's
important, then, that weunderstand this and have this
context so that we canunderstand Mary's role within
the mystery of the church,within the people of God, that
she is part of right and withinthe body of laity that is called
to holiness right.
(56:00):
And she has a very unique roleas being immaculately conceived
and the mother of God.
There's a very unique role asbeing immaculately conceived and
the mother of God.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
There's a very unique role, but that goes to the
primacy of Christ.
Yes, because Mary doesn'treally mean anything without
Jesus.
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:14):
And that's why it's important that we get all this
lay, all this groundwork, sothat we can actually talk about
then Mary and the eschatologicalchurch that we're pointed
towards.
The second coming that is oneof the primary reasons that we
celebrate the Eucharist is untilyou come again we proclaim your
(56:34):
death and we're waiting for youto come again.
Speaker 2 (56:39):
That's good.
That's good.
I think we're ready.
I think we're ready.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
I don't know if anybody else is.
That's okay.
That's okay.
Well, think we're ready.
Speaker 2 (56:46):
I think we're ready.
I don't know if anybody else is.
That's okay.
That's okay.
Well, thank you for this.
So we're going to wrap it upAgain.
Everybody who's listening,thank you for listening.
Please share us with others andsend us whatever it says.
Send us a text message.
Send us a text.
Send us that fan mail.
We're really curious to seewhere you're from and you know.
If you have any questions,throw them our way.
Speaker 1 (57:06):
Otherwise, and even if your English is really really
poor, then just send an emojior something.
Yes, send us emojis.
Use Google Translate.
Whatever.
Translate something, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (57:16):
Or send it in another language.
We can do the Google Translate.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
There you go.
That might be fun yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
But anyway, Father, thank you for this.
Thanks for inviting me out hereto Mount Carmel.
This is fun Always good to comevisit.
Speaker 1 (57:26):
Smell all the books.
Speaker 2 (57:27):
Yeah, and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
God bless, bye, bye.
Welcome to our podcast friends.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you like our podcast andwant to support us, please
subscribe or follow us, andplease don't forget to click the
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release.
Thank you and God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me and myfriend the friar, father Stephen
Sanchez, a Discalced Carmelitepriest.
Good morning Father.
Good morning John.
I'm sorry.
I always look around when we'rein your library because all the
things that I don't notice thelast time I was here, I love it.
I love that it smells likebooks, books.
(00:46):
That's my favorite part, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Don't let Betty in here, because right now you
probably know where everythingis somehow.
But she would reorganize it andthen you'd know where nothing
is.
It'd be organized.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
but According to her understanding of how things
should be organized.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Because that's the only way there is right, Her way
.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Maybe.
Or I mean, how are theyorganized?
Do you all use the DeweyDecimal System?
I have no idea what they use.
She would probably like bustthat out.
She's like making a cardcatalog or something.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
There is a card catalog on the computer, is
there?
Yeah, that's so cool that's socool.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
All right, how was your trip?
Which one the one to boston oh,it was good.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
It was good.
You know, the the first fewdays were cool, like it was like
50s at night and 70s during theday, of course, but we weren't
outside or inside.
Uh, inside for the Congress,inside the Wakefield Marriott
Hotel Very nice, it's an olderhotel but it was very nice and
(01:52):
the Congress was great.
There's 350 participants.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
That's a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, so it's good.
And so we in the secular orderthere is.
So there's the three provincesand each province has their
territory and within theterritory you have the secular
order and it is organized sothat each territory, the secular
order, has its own provincialcouncil and one of the friars is
(02:18):
the delegate to the council.
So before we had the Congressmeeting we all flew in Wednesday
.
We had our own provincialcouncil meeting for the OCDS on
Wednesday evening preparing forthe next day's interprovincial
OCDS council meetings, for thethree councils of the three
(02:41):
provinces got together and so wedid all that.
That was from in the morningtill in the afternoon, and then
the afternoon there was aregistration for the Congress,
the people that were attendingthe Congress in the afternoon.
So it was a full day.
So Wednesday afternoon,wednesday evening, all day.
All morning.
Thursday, all afternoon,thursday afternoon, all day
(03:04):
Friday, all day Saturday untilmidday Sunday.
But it was very good.
There was a different friarsgave different talks on the joy
of Carmel, one on Teresa of theAndes, on Therese.
There was one of the nuns fromthe Boston Carmel gave a
presentation on one of the booksshe had written.
(03:24):
So it was a Zoom meeting fromher monastery.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So it was good.
I was going to say, yeah, how'dshe get?
Speaker 1 (03:31):
out.
Yeah, it was good.
That's cool, so how?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
many religious were there out of the 300?
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Probably 15, 20.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
That's cool.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yeah, so there was the friars, the presenter, the,
the delegates to the ocds, plusthe presenters, plus the, the
brothers in formation that arestudying in washington.
They're all helping witheverything, and one of the
brothers gave a very goodpresentation as well john
merrick brother john mary yeah,so it was good, was uh vladimir
(04:02):
there?
Yes, yes, Vladimir is there.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I want to meet that guy just because of his name,
vladimir Guadalupe.
That's so cool.
That's so cool.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Who's Teresa of the Andes?
There's so many Teresas.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I know so many Teresas in the order.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Teresa of the Andes.
The monastery is Los Andes, inChile, and so she entered.
She was from a very affluentfamily and she was, I think.
She was also a musician, shewas a pianist, and so she
entered the monastery and shelived a very heroic life.
(04:47):
She was very much in love withChrist, and so she has a couple
of things.
Not a whole lot is written, butTeresa of the Andes, she was
recently, I don't know howrecently.
I forget now Everything,anything before yesterday.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
I live in that kind of a space and time thing.
Those are one of the morerecent saints of the order.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, maybe we'll just do an episode on her or
something, or maybe on some ofthem.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
The different saints of karma.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, that'd be cool, that'd be cool.
I almost forgot, but I wanted toremember the thing I told you.
Don't let me forget that wewanted to before we get going.
The fan mail thing, oh, yes,okay, so this is a new feature,
I guess is what you'd call it.
(05:40):
It's a new feature on theplatform that we host our
podcast podcast on and it itsends it out to, um, to all the
different players.
So it's so we we put it on oneplace and then it shares it with
, like, apple podcast andspotify and wherever all like a
(06:00):
lot.
We set up a lot of them, sothey're all over the place, but
anyway, um, so the, the one thatI'm going to use as an example,
uh, is well, no, not not thecontent, that's okay well, I
mean, I can too.
Um, but the apple podcast isbecause I have an iphone, so
that's what's on there.
So underneath the episode, likeif you scroll down and I'm
assuming it's something similarto that on everything else, like
(06:23):
spotify and whatever but if youscroll down below the podcast,
there's always a description ofthe episode and at the very top
it says send us a text.
And then at the bottom we haveour email address or like a
Google form people can click onand fill out to submit questions
.
But the send us a text is a newthing and we've never used it
(06:45):
before, so of course Bettystumbled across it.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
She's like what's this yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
So, anyway, what's neat about it is because most
people listen on their phones aswell and I've never tried it on
a computer, I've never done anyof that stuff but if you click
it on your phone it justliterally takes you into your
text messages and I guess wehave some kind of phone number
associated with our account toreceive the text messages.
(07:12):
But this is what's interestingabout it.
So you type in whatever youwant to type in in the text
message.
So it can be like hey, you guysare awesome, or hey, you guys
are terrible, or hey, I've got aquestion, or whatever and then
it sends it to um, it sends itback to like we, we just get an
email, we don't actually get atext message, we get an email
(07:34):
and then we can log into the,the podcast like platform
platform website thing and it'll.
It will just show thenotification that you've got fan
mail and um, the only I know alot of people in the world are
all like nervous about giving,like sending emails because they
don't want their email floatingaround out in space, Right
privacy thing, right yeah, yeah,yeah.
So what's kind of neat is whenyou do this.
(07:56):
So all it shows?
It shows the date that you sentit, it shows the location the
cell phone number is registeredin.
So Betty's is from Carthage,texas, okay.
And then it just shows the lastfour numbers of in the United
(08:17):
States, the way our phonenumbers are formatted.
It just shows the last fournumbers, and so she's put.
Woe to you if you ignore mywoeful request.
And then some little emojis,because all of the Gospels
lately where Jesus is like woeto you, pharisees and all that
stuff.
Yeah, yeah, and so anyway.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
The confrontation with the Pharisees and the
scribes.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
So I thought it was super neat.
So what I want to know isbecause?
So I thought it was super neat.
So what I want to know isbecause we get a lot of people
who listen from other countries.
Yes, I want to know if anybodyout there from let's see where
are the latest countries from,let me see Locations.
(09:00):
So the last five we havelisteners from Mexico, ireland,
japan, the United Kingdom,canada and the United States,
and I have no idea who y'all are, but we love all y'all and I
want to know what the phonenumbers look like.
So if anybody who hears this,especially I mean you're in the
(09:20):
United States, you can do it too, but we don't want to exclude
anybody.
But if you're from anothercountry can do too.
But, um, we don't want toexclude anybody, but if you're
from another country, I wouldsuper love if you could send a
fan mail, text message thing, soI can see what the phone number
formatting looks like um, andthen we'll just.
I don't know.
Next time we record an episode,we'll just see, you'll see.
Yeah, anybody's responded tothat give some shout outs yeah
and uh, you can leave your nameif you want.
(09:41):
Um, you don't have to leaveyour name, you can be completely
anonymous.
It was super cool.
We just wanted to point it outto everybody out there because
we're excited about it.
That's done.
We're going to try our best towrap this up Chapter 5 of Lumen
Gentium.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Finally talk on Chapter 8.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Is there more in Chapter 5, but we we're gonna
try and squeeze it in.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
We're gonna five the end we're gonna end with chapter
five.
Before we get, of course, I'lldo a little recap on six and
seven before we get to eight.
But okay, but because we reallywant to talk about mary, mary
this is all preparation for totalk the talk on mary and the
the image of the church.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Okay, ready to go.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Okay, so a real, as quick as a recap as I can give.
So we have seen, in the firstchapter of Lumen Gentium, it
deals with the mystery of thechurch and then, built upon this
presentation of the mystery ofthe church, we have chapter 2,
then that deals with theself-definition of those who
(10:49):
make up the mystery of thechurch, and that is the people
of God.
That's chapter 2.
So, continuing on then tochapter 3, from within the
people of God springs forth,those who are called to lead and
serve the people of God.
Thus chapter 3 deals with thepeople of God.
Thus chapter 3 deals with thehierarchy of bishops, in
(11:10):
building on those three chapters.
And we have chapter 4 thataddresses those who are the
bishops.
They are called to form andlead and serve, and that is the
laity.
So the purpose of the bishopsis to form, lead and serve, and
so who are they called to form,lead and serve, and that is the
laity.
So that's the last chapter thatwe covered.
(11:32):
So then, this now brings us tochapter five that explains the
purpose for the formation of thepeople of God and the reason
for the hierarchy's call to formand lead them, and that is
their call to form and lead usin the way of holiness or to
strive for holiness.
(11:52):
And so the chapter five isentitled On the Universal Call
to Holiness.
So this universal call toholiness is not something new
that the Council has thought up,but it is simply a recalling of
what has always been theteaching of Christ to be holy as
(12:13):
our Heavenly Father is holy,since that is the Father's
perfection, perfect holiness,and that is expressed in the
angelic proclamation of the OldTestament holy, holy, holy,
right.
That's the way they try toexpress that total otherness of
God and that holiness of God.
(12:35):
And then Pius XI touched uponour call to holiness, or he
begins to expound on or recallthe holiness of our occult in
his 1930 encyclical Casti Conubi, which is on chaste wedlock
right, chastity within marriage.
What does that mean?
Chastity does not mean celibacywithin marriage, because that
(12:56):
would not make sense.
But the chastity is how do Ikeep a chaste relationship with
my spouse and I don't commit thesin of lust against my spouse,
right?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
How do?
Speaker 1 (13:04):
I maintain that chaste relationship, that
relationship of respect right.
It also dealt with Kosti Kanubialso dealt with the question of
divorce, the question ofcontraception and the idea of
eugenics, which is very popular.
It was beginning to gainpopularity in the 30s and the
(13:26):
40s and that has to do withimproving the human gene pool
and we saw some of that inHitler's Germany, the idea of
eugenics and purifying the raceright.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, I have a strange feeling this is going to
start making a comeback too,with all the genetic advances
that have happened lately.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's very possible.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
So, then, quoting from Kosti Kanubi this is on
Christian marriage, and this isfrom paragraph 23.
Of every condition, in whateverhonorable walk of life they may
be, can and ought to imitatethat most perfect example of
(14:11):
holiness placed before man byGod, namely Christ, our Lord,
and by God's grace, to arrive atthe summit of perfection, as is
proved by the example set us ofmany saints.
So one of the things that PopePius XI is trying to bring up or
(14:32):
recall, is that there is thiscall to sanctity that we all
have an obligation to, and sothis is something, then, that we
need to kind of remindourselves of.
Right, and so this is what theCouncil builds upon is this idea
of holiness and holiness on allwalks of life.
So let's recall that theCouncil Fathers began this
(14:54):
document with chapter one thatspeaks of the mystery of the
Church founded by and in Christ,and that it is in Christ that
the call of holiness originates.
So this is from paragraph oneof Lumen Gentium, number one
Christ is the light of nations.
(15:16):
Lumen Gentium, because this isso, this sacred synod, gathered
together in the Holy Spirit,eagerly desires, by proclaiming
the gospel to every creature, tobring the light of Christ to
all a light brightly visible onthe countenance of the Church,
(15:38):
an instrument both of a veryclosely knit union with God and
of the unity of the whole humanrace.
It desires now to unfold morefully, to the faithful of the
Church and to the whole world,its own inner nature and
universal mission.
(15:58):
Then, number eight by the powerof the risen Lord, it is given
strength that it might, inpatience and in love, overcome
its sorrows and challenges, bothwithin itself and from without,
and that it might reveal to theworld faithfully, though darkly
, meaning imperfectly, themystery of its Lord until in the
(16:19):
end it will be manifested infull light.
It will be manifested in fulllight, in full light.
So one of the things that theimage that is used is in that we
as church, as community andbride of Christ, as we are
facing Christ or we are in thisrelationship with Christ, that
the glory of Christ, theholiness of Christ, the holiness
(16:40):
of God, will shine upon thecountenance of the church, upon
the face of the bride, and wethen, as bride, are called to
reflect out into the world thisholiness that is reflected upon
the face of the church.
The holiness of Christ isreflected onto the face of the
(17:02):
church, and then we as churchshould reflect it out into the
world, and that's where thiswhole idea of the universal call
of holiness is coming from.
Again, going back to the wholeidea that we talked about,
whichever episode it was, on theprimacy of Christ.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
It's all about Christ .
It's all about Jesus, right,and how we, as bride of Christ,
we have to consider andseriously enter into a
commitment of holiness and tomanifest it to the world.
So that's in chapter 1.
So then, in chapter 2 of LumenGentium, on the people of God,
(17:39):
we have the reminder at the endof the article, paragraph 11,
reminder at the end of thearticle, paragraph 11, where it
states Fortified by so many andsuch powerful means of salvation
, referring to sacraments, wehave all these sacraments which
are aids to our salvation, ourredemption, our holiness, all
the faithful, whatever theircondition or state, are called
(18:02):
by the Lord, each in his own way, to that perfect holiness
whereby the Father himself isholy or is perfect.
So then, entering into the textof chapter 5.
So then, as we had discussedbefore, the original schema, or
the original draft, presented astrongly juridical and
(18:23):
hierarchical version, right?
And so we have here a quotefrom Frederick Wolfe.
This is a quote from his bookthe Call of the Whole Church to
Holiness.
So here we quote the author.
(18:44):
Concerning the first draft, itcontained special chapters on
resident bishops, on themagisterium of the church, on
authority and obedience and onthe relations between church and
state, which have all beenomitted.
So they're in other places now,in the documents of the Second
(19:08):
Vatican Council.
They're not in this document onthe church right.
Instead, the emphasis is nowlaid on the church as the work
of grace, but this must bemanifested by the holiness of
her members.
So Chapter 5 begins withparagraph number 39.
(19:30):
So the opening of Article 39restates the indefectible
holiness of the Church.
Because of Christ's holinessand his union to his bride, the
Church, the first part and thelast part of number 39
re-emphasize the universalnature of the call to holiness.
So the first part of 39.
(19:51):
Emphasize the universal natureof the call to holiness.
So the first part of 39.
The Church, whose mystery isbeing set forth by this sacred
synod, is believed to beindefectibly holy.
Indeed, christ, the Son of God,who with the Father and the
(20:12):
Spirit is praised as uniquelyholy, loved the Church as his
bride, delivering himself up forher.
He did this so that he mightsanctify her.
He united her to himself as hisown body and brought it to
perfection by the gift of theHoly Spirit for God's glory.
Therefore, in the Church,everyone, whether belonging to
(20:33):
the hierarchy, the formators, orbeing cared for by it is called
to holiness.
Now the last part of 39.
However, this holiness of thechurch is unceasingly manifested
and must be manifested, in thefruits of grace which the Spirit
(20:54):
produces in the faithful.
It is expressed in many ways inindividuals who, in their walk
of life, tend toward theperfection of charity, thus
causing the edification ofothers.
In a very special way, thisholiness appears in the practice
of the councils, customarilycalled evangelical poverty,
(21:18):
chastity, obedience.
This practice of the councils,under the impulsion of the Holy
Spirit, undertaken by manyChristians, either privately or
in a church-approved conditionor state of life, gives and must
give in the world anoutstanding witness and example
of this same holiness.
So here it's interesting.
(21:38):
So this last part of 39.
This holiness of the church isunceasingly manifested and must
be manifested in the fruits ofgrace which the Spirit produces
in the faithful.
So it's both again we go backto that both and right.
So it is being manifested andit must be manifested.
So there's a continualprogression and a continuing
(22:02):
call to this manifestation ofholiness right, and so it sort
of is in a very covert way, isspeaking also about consecrated
life.
Right, those that take theevangelical councils and they're
called to give witness of thisholiness, right?
So then, okay, now let's gointo the attainment of holiness.
(22:23):
It is unfortunate that in theWestern culture, especially in
the United States, because ofits business mentality and the
whole culture of possessingthings and achieving goals,
there has been amisunderstanding of the nature
and source of holiness.
Many people assume thatholiness is based upon a
(22:48):
personal effort to achieveholiness, this idea being that
it is an objective goal that canbe accomplished by those who
are truly willing to sacrificeand work at achievement.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah, that really stuck out to me Because, being
in America, everything is whatcan you produce, what can you
achieve?
Are you working?
Are you trying hard enough?
Are you pulling yourself up byyour bootstraps and all that
kind of stuff?
But last I checked, there'snothing I can do to make myself
holy.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
It's.
God makes things holy, jesusmakes me holy, holy Spirit.
So it's more about therealization I had.
Is that it's more about mywillingness to cooperate than
anything else.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Right, right, and I think it's important.
It's a very subtle thing andmost people are not aware of it
because it's such a subtle thingthing or it's.
It's such a cultural um, it'spart of our cultural life here
in the west, in the unitedstates, this whole idea of
(23:58):
achievement and productivityright, and that works fine in
your business.
I mean you should produce, Imean they're paying you a just
wage and you must give thatlabor for that just wage, and so
it's fine in that and it hasits place.
But when somehow,subconsciously or unconsciously,
it bleeds over into yourreligiosity or into your
(24:21):
understanding of relationshipwith God, then what happens is
this idea of productivity comesin and makes everything that
much harder, because I'm tryingto produce something that I'm
incapable of producing, becauseonly God can, only God is holy,
only God is holy.
And so the idea then that Ihave to achieve holiness, and
(24:42):
the idea that it's an objectivegoal, makes the journey that
much more difficult.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, and I like that you pointed out how subtle it
is, because by no means doesthat give me the um, I don't
know the scapegoat or whateverto.
Oh well, I don't have to trythen, because if that's again,
it comes down to my willingnessto cooperate that's the only
thing, I guess, if, if anything,that's the only thing that I
(25:09):
can possibly strive for, is anincreased willingness to
cooperate, no matter what thesituation is Right.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
But I have to be aware of the situation and what
I'm being called to amtask-oriented.
Am I bringing that sort oforientation into my religious
life, and religious as in afaithful discipleship, not a
consecrated religious, eventhough that applies there too?
Is it all task-oriented?
(25:45):
Am I task-oriented?
Okay, so I did this, I did this, I did this, I did this other
religious thing, so I fulfilledall my religious observances and
requirements.
Right and so, okay, I'm good,I'm done Like.
No, those things are very good,those things are aids and
they're helps, but the realconversion, the real sanctity,
(26:08):
the real holiness is a process,and so this is something that we
have to become aware of thatit's not a matter of the perfect
execution of tasks, it's.
Do I understand that thesacraments and sacramentals that
these are helps towards my ownconversion, my own surrender,
right?
So this whole idea of okay,like the primacy of the
(26:31):
Eucharist in the sacramentallife of the church, is more than
just celebrating the Eucharist.
It is a matter of am Isurrendering myself with the
bread and the wine, throughJesus Christ, to the Father?
Am I aware of the fact that Iam offering myself?
(26:52):
That is the celebration of theyear?
Yeah, it's not just.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
well, if I just keep, I'll just go have communion
every day, I'll go to daily massand all of a sudden I'll be
better.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Yeah, right, yeah, it's just, you can't do that.
It's more than that.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, and there's it makes me think of.
One other thing is and I don'tremember if it was back when I
was a teacher or if it'ssomething I heard about being a
parent, but the phrase wasbasically one of the best things
you can do for your kids orwith your kids is to just waste
time with them, yeah, and saythe right thing in the right
(27:29):
moment that helps them toachieve or whatever their goal
is, or to stay out of trouble,or to grow up to be wise.
You can want all those thingsand it's fine, but it's the
culmination of all the actualtime you spent with the person
that builds that relationshipthat even allows for the
(27:50):
opportunities.
And so, when it comes to God,it's the same thing.
Right, like I can go toconfession every day if I wanted
to, but it's not the actnecessarily.
It's the nearness to God, thatspending time with Him, drawing
near to Him.
That, I think, is more, I guess, efficacious than actually
(28:14):
doing the thing.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
I want to qualify that, because it should be
quality time.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yes, yeah.
So, like the wasting time, itdoesn't mean just sit there and
do nothing right, but it's justto be with that person.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Right.
So if you okay this whole idea,then let's take this example of
this parental relationship,right?
So okay, I want to be a gooddad, I want to be a good mom, so
I need to go spend time with mykids.
So I go and I sit with them andor you know whatever.
But my whole idea is okay.
It's not about the relationshipwith the child, it's about I am
(28:48):
fulfilling my task.
It's really it's about I amfulfilling my task.
It's really about me.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
I am fulfilling my task of being a good parent.
So, okay, I've checked that box.
Yeah, right, but are youeffectively present to the child
?
Is there compassion, is thereunderstanding, is there empathy?
All these things that aredynamic parts of a relationship,
and you can always go back toour episode and listen on
(29:15):
relationships, how importantthat is.
And so it has to be qualitative, because there are people,
again, if you have this taskorientation, even wasting time,
okay, so I'm going to go wasteone hour sitting before the
Blessed Sacrament.
So I go, and I go sit beforethe Blessed Sacrament in the
(29:35):
Perpetual Adoration Chapel foran hour and then, okay, then I
have given him an hour, right,and so then I go off, happy with
myself.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah, yeah, when really you missed it.
And you can apply that samething to, obviously to God.
You can do it to your spouse,yes, you can apply it with your
friends, anyone, whatever,Anyone, right.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
So, again, it is part of this whole idea, then, of
this relational aspect and thisquality time, of spending time
with the Lord, and so this isthe holiness part.
The holiness is it's not.
I shouldn't see it as a finishline.
There's a line I have to cross,and once I cross that and I
become holy, then I've arrivedand I can live my life again
(30:17):
Like well.
No, that's not the way youshould see it.
It is a continual conversion,it is a continual transformation
, and that is what this call toholiness is and that's how we
should understand holiness.
Right is that?
idea of continual conversion.
So it's worthwhile to rememberalso that, as I said earlier,
(30:40):
that only God is holy, and inthe Old Testament this is
expressed by what I referred toearlier as God being thrice holy
.
You know the angelicproclamation holy, holy, holy,
right that is.
It is a sanctity that is beyondour comprehension, and, built
(31:00):
upon that truth, the truth ofGod's complete and total other
holiness that is so other Ican't even understand what that
really is.
So built upon that truth isalso, then, the truth of our
adoption into God through JesusChrist, so that the true source
of holiness in the believingChristian is not himself, but
(31:25):
the very holiness of the triuneGod that dwells within of the
triune God that dwells within.
The holiness of the Christianis merely the Christian,
allowing the holiness of therisen Christ to shine forth in
and through himself herself intothe world.
It should not be understood asa passive participation, but an
(31:47):
active cooperation with thegrace that has given us to
remove all the impediments ofthe sanctity that is already
mine, and so by that I mean Ihave to look at myself and ask
myself what are the things in mylife that are keeping God's,
christ's holiness and jewelswithin me?
(32:09):
What are the things that arekeeping it from manifesting
itself right?
Is it my attitude?
Am I always looking forsomething to complain about?
Am I always looking forimperfection?
Am I always being critical?
Am I always doubting?
Am I always fearful?
Do I struggle withperfectionism?
All those things are thingsthat can impede, then, this
(32:34):
holiness of shining forth in ourlives.
Of course, again, that I do mypart.
I do my part of getting out ofthe way of God's holiness in my
(33:02):
life, and again, it doesn'tnecessarily mean the execution
of perfection.
Right now I'm thinking of,there is and of course now his
name has completely gone out ofmy head, but there is a saint
who dealt with alcoholism.
I think Lawrence.
(33:22):
It might be Lawrence is hisfirst name, I forget now, but he
and I was like wow, hestruggled with it.
He struggled with addiction, andso I go like, wow, he struggled
with it, he struggled withaddiction, and so I go like, wow
, and then he's a saint.
He's a saint, the church hasdeclared him a saint, and so
it's not about perfection orwhat we understand perfection to
(33:46):
be.
And this again goes back tothis whole idea of the Western
mind and that idea ofproductivity I need to produce
perfectly, I need to executeperfectly.
No, the perfection that we'retalking about is the perfection
of love, the perfection ofcharity.
That is the perfection that westrive for, or we should strive
(34:08):
for, is the imitation ofChrist's perfect love.
That is a perfection that wespeak of right.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
I think it was St Matthias is what I'm finding
online.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Matthias, as in the apostle.
Oh, no, no, no, yeah, what'shis last name?
Was it out with an H?
I don't remember now, yeah,yeah, yeah might be matthias,
okay.
So now I'm going to quote saintteresa of jesus, saint teresa of
(34:45):
avila, and I'm going to quotefrom her work in the interior
castle, where she describes thesoul as seven levels of degrees
of intimacy with the Lord, rightFrom the first mansions into
the seventh mansion, and theirdifferent degrees of commitment
to the Lord.
So this is from the firstmansion, chapter one, paragraph
(35:09):
one.
For in reflecting upon itcarefully, sisters, she's
talking to her nuns we realizethat the soul of the just person
is nothing else but a paradisewhere the Lord says he finds his
delight.
So then, what do you think thatabode will be like, where a
(35:31):
king so powerful, so wise, sopure, so full of all good things
takes his delight?
I don't find anythingcomparable to the magnificent
beauty of a soul and itsmarvelous capacity, capacity
(35:55):
Indeed.
Our intellects, however keen,can hardly comprehend it, just
as they cannot comprehend God,but he himself says that he
created us in his own image andlikeness.
And then, from the samemansions, the first mansions,
and this is from chapter 2,.
This is paragraph 3, excuse me.
(36:20):
It should be kept in mind herethat the font, the shining sun
that is in the center of thesoul, does not lose its beauty
and splendor.
It is always present in thesoul and nothing can take away
its loveliness.
But if a black cloth is placedover a crystal that is in the
sun, obviously the sun'sbrilliance will have no effect
(36:41):
on the crystal, even though thesun is shining on it.
Okay, so, comment on these twoquotes from Teresa.
Comment on these two quotes fromTeresa.
One is the magnificent capacityof the soul to be the dwelling
place of the Trinity, the factthat the universe that cannot
(37:12):
contain God dwells in the soul,and this indwelling, then, is
the source of the holiness thatwe're called to.
So how do I, how do I, how do Iconnect to that indwelling
presence?
How do I allow that indwellingpresence to manifest itself in
my life in such a way that theholiness of God himself can
(37:33):
become present in the world?
Right?
So there's this treasure inthis earthen vessel.
So this is something, then,that we need to spend time
reflecting upon.
So, when it comes to the ideaof holiness and striving for
holiness, or the universal callto holiness, it's already mine,
(37:58):
it belongs to me because Goddwells in me, and so what do I
need to do to make sure thatthat manifests itself in my
relationships, in the way that Irelate to the world?
And so then she goes on to sayand that second quote, sort of
like the, the signing, the, thesunning shine the shining sun on
(38:20):
the crystal right.
So like if in um, the beginningof of interior council, she
talks about this whole beinglike a diamond, right, and how,
if the sun shines on thisdiamond, how it, how resplendent
it can be.
So it's, it's reflecting light.
It's not its own light, it'sreflecting light and it goes.
This goes back to this wholeidea of the bride of Christ
(38:44):
standing with Christ and theglory of Christ shining on the
countenance of the bride and hownow the bride must reflect this
glory into the world, and sortof that idea, then, of this
diamond that is sparkling.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Yeah, I really like that imagery too.
And again, thinking back to thechurch and thinking back to the
gospel, what Jesus says aboutmarriage he goes well.
That's why the two become oneflesh.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
So when they're one flesh, it's not two people
cohabitating, they are one thingRight.
And so if the church is thebride of Christ, then it's again
, it's like a logical necessitythat she is part of him and
she's going to reflect his light.
And I like the imagery of thediamond too, because anyone
who's seen a diamond and youshine light in it, it's just,
(39:34):
it's beautiful, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
And so there is also there is the idea that they're
too distinct and we don't becomeJesus, right, even though we
are united to him.
We do not become Jesus, but weare so united to him that in his
mind and in the church's mind,it's not Jesus and me, it's us,
(39:58):
it's we.
Their identity.
The identity changes from I towe.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Yeah, it's the whole, both and yes.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah, and so this is where this whole part, then, of
this universal call to holiness,and so that, because Christ is
such a generous spouse and is soother centered as Christ, as
the word of God, he's so othercentered that everything that is
his is mine, right, and Paultalks about this.
I already have all thetreasures in heaven in Christ,
(40:29):
right, and so he gives meeverything that is his, and so
part of that is his holiness.
And for us in the EasternChurch we talk about
divinization, so even his ownGodhead, he wants to share with
me His Godness, he wants toshare with me His Godness.
He wants to share with me andgive to me, and that is, then
the divinization of the church,of the bride of Christ, right.
(40:52):
So, and again, this is wherethe universal call to holiness
comes from.
It comes from going back to theprimacy of Christ and our
understanding of who he is, andthen our call to imitate that
holiness, that glory right he is, and then our call to imitate
that holiness, that glory right.
So then, continuing on, I haveanother quote here.
(41:12):
This is again from FrederickWolff, about this chapter on the
universal call to holiness.
The chapter opens with thedeclaration that the church is
indefectibly holy, so that theholiness of the individual is
always a mere participation inthe holiness of the church,
(41:37):
proclaiming as it must, theholiness of the church.
My holiness, or the holinessthat I'm striving for, is a
proclamation of the holiness ofthe church, which is a bride of
Christ and therefore united toChrist, and therefore the
holiness comes from Christhimself.
That's what all this is about,right?
So, christian holinesscontinuing on with the quote
(41:57):
Christian holiness is notprimarily, much less exclusively
, moral perfection, heroic humanvirtue, but primarily and in
the deepest sense, the glory,the doxa, the glory and the love
, the agape of God given to theredeemed without any merit on
(42:21):
their part, total gift, completeand total gift.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Yeah, and that just echoes back to what was said
about how, oh gosh, just thatyou can't earn it.
It's not something that youachieve.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
It's impossible, it is supernatural and I need
supernatural assistance,supernatural aid, and so I can't
do something supernatural.
And if I try to do somethingsupernatural, I'm going to
collapse, I'm going to breakdown because I cannot do it.
It's outside of my capacity.
And this is where a lot ofpeople get confused, in that
they think that moral perfectionright, it's about moral
(43:05):
perfection.
If I am morally perfect, I amholy.
No, no.
So another cross tells us ifyou allow yourself to fall in
love with Christ, a moral lifeand an ethical life follows
naturally.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard that before too
, and that's something that Ithink it's interesting the
journey that we go on as we growin our conversion and our
relationship with Jesus, becauseI'm sure you've seen too and
for me I guess it's not so longago that I can't remember it,
(43:41):
but it's like when you have thatmoment and and that first step
of conversion, and you're sozealous and you're just like I
want to do all these things, youknow, and then and that's fine
and that's good, yeah, but thenzeal is good, yeah, and slowly
you start to go well, man, I I'mmessing all this stuff up and
I'm still failing and I'm doingit all wrong, and and then that
(44:03):
slowly turns into therealization of, oh well, I can't
do it right.
And then you've got to grapplewith that, you know, and your
own natural inadequacies becauseyou're not God.
And then you're like well, Ithought I was over that, thought
that I was God, but I guess not.
And it just keeps continuing asyour relationship grows and I
just I think it's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Yeah, it is, and that's a critical point in
almost every disciple's journeyis that once I realize that I
can't do it on my own, I'm notin control, or I'm not as in
control as I wish I were, thenthe question is okay, can you
accept that in humility andallow your journey to continue?
(44:45):
Can you continue to strive,knowing that it all comes from?
Speaker 2 (44:50):
God.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
My desire for holiness comes from God.
My efforts at it come from God,even my desire to desire comes
from God.
It is all from Him and I thinkthat's really difficult for some
people because, again goingback to the culture, we're
taught to be self-sufficient,especially here in Texas.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Yeah, I was just saying I bet a lot of people get
stuck right there.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Yeah, we pick up ourselves by our own bootstraps
here, and so when you bring thatinto your relationship with God
, it messes it up.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
And so I tell people that the Catholicism in North
Texas is very different from theCatholicism in other parts of
Texas or the southern part ofTexas where real Catholicism
where I come from in San Antonioyeah.
So it's very different.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
It's very different, because here I think, the church
is surrounded by all these.
We're here in the middle of thebuckle of the Bible Belt, and
so there is a different way ofapproaching Catholicism that can
be influenced by the outsideculture, and instead of going
like, okay, no, I need to reallyfocus on the indwelling and the
(45:58):
truth of the indwelling, andthe truth that the sanctity that
I'm called to is Christ's andit's my mere participation in
his holiness.
And that makes the journey alot easier If I realize that and
recognize that.
It makes it a lot easier If Iknow that I already have it
within myself instead ofstriving for something outside
(46:19):
of myself.
Right, it's easier for me tolike oh, it's already mine.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Yeah, and that's such .
It's already mine, yeah, yeah,and that's such a kind of flip,
yeah, metaphysical, likeeverything you have to.
Everything will flip when youcan get there, but to grasp for
it you've got to spend so muchtime chewing on it before it
clicks.
I bet Peter would have been agood Texan.
He probably would have been agood onean.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
He probably would have been a good one.
Yeah, maybe that's where he wasreally.
He was really from.
Yeah, texas saint peter texasokay, and I think one of the
things again, this, this quotefrom Wolfe, and you highlighted
(47:06):
it here without any merit ontheir part traditional
traditions or whatever faithtradition you belong to.
There is this human tendency towant to merit and as catholics
(47:31):
we know we cannot, andprotestants know that as well.
But it's funny to me, it'sfunny that in both sides of that
camp those camps, you know,whether it's a catholic or a
protestant people try to meritwithout meriting and that is so,
uh like okay.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
So yeah, it's very it's.
It's to me.
It reminds me of speaking ofall the woes, betty.
It's very pharisee kind of yeah, thinking like the right.
He's like oh, you tie up allthe burdens, but you won't lift
a finger right so it's.
It's like they don't realizethat they are their own problem,
(48:12):
right?
So it's like well, I'm tryingto merit it without trying to
merit it, but I'm still doing itright and the other.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
The other extreme in that is, I become so aware of
the fact that I'm the problem.
I become so obsessed with myfact being the problem that I
still don't allow the grace tohappen because I'm so obsessed
with me.
Am I getting in the way?
Am I getting in the way?
Are my wounds getting in theway?
Are my traumas getting in theway?
And then that happens, and thenI still don't allow the grace
to work because I'm so obsessedwith myself.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Yeah, I think that was Martin Luther's problem at
the beginning.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Probably, yeah, probably yeah, there's a lot of
things going on there.
So, going on to number 40 ofchapter 5.
The Lord Jesus, the divineteacher and model of all
perfection, preached holiness oflife to each and every one of
his disciples, of everycondition.
So number 40, then, and modelof all perfection, preached
holiness of life to each andevery one of his disciples of
(49:07):
every condition.
So number 40, then, deals withholiness in different states of
life and how it should producedifferent things in us, and this
is a little synopsis of number40 is synopsis of number 40 is
(49:31):
holiness produces.
One, a more human way of life,and two, it produces an abundant
harvest of good.
So that's what number 40 isabout.
Excuse me and I have anotherquote here, and this is also
(49:53):
from Wolf the means ofperfection are stated that the
following of Christconfiguration to him, above all
in the readiness to serve and tolay down one's life for others
and therefore obedience to theFather's will.
So then, this is the questionit's not about my perfect
attendance, it's not my perfectrecitation of prayers, even
(50:17):
though all those things aregreat.
Attends at Mass, all those arehelps and means.
I'm not saying that youshouldn't do that I'm saying is
are those sacraments andsacramentals helping me to
configure myself to the image ofChrist in my readiness to serve
others and to lay down my lifefor others?
(50:38):
Right, that is the question.
How are these things helping mein that?
And then in number 41, there'ssome concrete ways of attaining
holiness and the perfection ofcharity, and that depends on
one's situation and duties.
This is what number 41 is about.
(50:59):
So there are some generalthings that can be said about
this.
One, we should use ourstrengths and talents as a gift
from Christ.
Two, we should follow Christand become like him, seeking the
Father's will in all things,the glory of God and the good of
(51:20):
our neighbor.
Three, we should use ourpersonal gifts and fulfill our
duties in the spirit of faith,working through love.
4.
We should receive all thingswith faith from the hand of the
Heavenly Father.
(51:41):
These four means of attainingholiness can be grouped into two
basic attitudes One, the spiritto accept all things as coming
from the living hand of God.
And two, the aim to do allthings in accordance with God's
will, out of love for him.
Okay, and it goes on to speakof paths of holiness.
(52:08):
Right as it can this chapterright the paths of holiness for
different vocations or states oflife.
So for bishops, the path toholiness is the perfect duty of
pastoral charity, episcopal care, service, prayer, sacrifice and
(52:33):
preaching, laying down theirlives for their sheep and the
promotion of greater holiness byexample.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
Okay, I think I have a strange feeling.
This last chapter, or this lastlittle paragraph right here, is
something that all of us shouldprobably take to prayer.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Yes, probably yes.
I would suggest that.
And the path of holiness forpriests to form the spiritual
crown of the bishops.
They're ordinaries, right?
So we're all under bishops,right.
So to form the spiritual crownof the bishops, priests should
(53:22):
grow daily in love of God andneighbor through the exercise of
their office, priestly,fraternity, and give witness to
all by an abundance of everyspiritual good, prayer and
sacrifice for the entire peopleof God.
Clerics, so it should beanybody that is studying, so it
(53:44):
would be permanent deacons,transitional deacons,
seminarians that are intheologate.
They're considered clerics orreligious that are studying for
priesthood.
They're considered clerics aswell, to be free from every vice
and are to be personificationsof goodness and friends of God.
(54:05):
The path of holiness formarried couples and are to be
personifications of goodness andfriends of God.
The path of holiness formarried couples Faithful love,
be a lifelong sustaining forcefor each other, form their
children in faith and virtue.
(54:26):
And for all those who suffer,their path to holiness is they
are called to unite themselvesto the sufferings of Christ.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
Okay, we made it.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
We made it to the end .
Speaker 2 (54:42):
Can you give us a little like set the stage now
why all of that was necessary?
So now we can talk about Mary.
Speaker 1 (54:55):
Okay, so the whole idea then of Mary remember, we
talked about the big fight atthe council was that they wanted
a separate document on Mary.
I wanted a separate document onMary and da-da-da-da.
And then the whole idea, thenthe work of the Holy Spirit, is
then that Mary be considered,since she is the first of the
redeemed, that her place isactually within the community of
belief terms of the mystery ofthe church, uh, the, who are the
(55:16):
people of god, and then who arethe formators of the people of
god and the, and the reason fortheir formation is to strive for
, uh or the laity, and then thatit's a matter of striving for
(55:39):
holiness for everyone in thechurch, in the mystery, and it's
important, then, that weunderstand this and have this
context so that we canunderstand Mary's role within
the mystery of the church,within the people of God, that
she is part of right and withinthe body of laity that is called
to holiness right.
(56:00):
And she has a very unique roleas being immaculately conceived
and the mother of God.
There's a very unique role asbeing immaculately conceived and
the mother of God.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
There's a very unique role, but that goes to the
primacy of Christ.
Yes, because Mary doesn'treally mean anything without
Jesus.
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:14):
And that's why it's important that we get all this
lay, all this groundwork, sothat we can actually talk about
then Mary and the eschatologicalchurch that we're pointed
towards.
The second coming that is oneof the primary reasons that we
celebrate the Eucharist is untilyou come again we proclaim your
(56:34):
death and we're waiting for youto come again.
Speaker 2 (56:39):
That's good.
That's good.
I think we're ready.
I think we're ready.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
I don't know if anybody else is.
That's okay.
That's okay.
Well, think we're ready.
Speaker 2 (56:46):
I think we're ready.
I don't know if anybody else is.
That's okay.
That's okay.
Well, thank you for this.
So we're going to wrap it upAgain.
Everybody who's listening,thank you for listening.
Please share us with others andsend us whatever it says.
Send us a text message.
Send us a text.
Send us that fan mail.
We're really curious to seewhere you're from and you know.
If you have any questions,throw them our way.
Speaker 1 (57:06):
Otherwise, and even if your English is really really
poor, then just send an emojior something.
Yes, send us emojis.
Use Google Translate.
Whatever.
Translate something, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (57:16):
Or send it in another language.
We can do the Google Translate.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
There you go.
That might be fun yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
But anyway, Father, thank you for this.
Thanks for inviting me out hereto Mount Carmel.
This is fun Always good to comevisit.
Speaker 1 (57:26):
Smell all the books.
Speaker 2 (57:27):
Yeah, and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
God bless, bye, bye.
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