How Christian Obedience Restores Dignity And Builds Trust (Season 3 Episode 42)

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We explore respect and obedience through the lens of Christian discipleship, tracing how honor, office, and conscience intersect and how obedience, purified of fear, can lead to real freedom. Stories from religious life ground the theology in daily choices, conflict, and growth.

• respect as honor rooted in the dignity of persons
• Jesus is Lord as foundation for obedience
• kenosis and the purification of the will
• vows versus promises and formation in virtue
• separating person from office in authority
• conscience, limits of obedience, and channels for appeal
• avoiding legalism and passive-aggressive compliance
• speaking hard truths with prudence and charity
• moving from ritual attachment to interior freedom
• authority as service and the common good
• prayer, counsel, and reflection to discern God’s will

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to the My Friend the Friar podcast, and
thanks for listening.
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of new episodes when theyrelease.
Thanks again and God bless.

(00:27):
Good morning.
Good morning, Father.
And to everyone else, welcome tothe podcast.
Thanks for joining me and myfriend the Friar Father Steven
Sanchez, a discalced Carmelitepriest.
You're getting good at that.
I was just thinking that, orbecause I'm going back and
listening to all our oldepisodes, and I just got through
the part where I can't say itfor like three episodes in a

(00:48):
row.
I had to go practice.
I was, I think I even godiscalced, like trying to get it
out.
But I have my 173rd cup ofcoffee this morning.
So there you go.
See?
So you can probably say it threetimes rapidly.
Yes.
I am ready.

(01:11):
Okay.
Um excuse me.
So today we're talking about twowords that can carry a lot of
um, they carry a lot of weight,I think, with them.
Um, and I think naturally andappropriately they carry a lot
of weight.
It's respect and obedience umfor some people, right?
These words um they can gettwisted and there could be some

(01:36):
wounds associated with uh withthem, you know, events, people
in their lives, kind of thing.
But in the Christian tradition,there's something a lot deeper
here um with trust and um orrespect and obedience.
And so like I think trust,surrender, love, there's like a
lot of layers, as we're alwaystalking about, layers and

(01:58):
threads.
Um, but that's kind of where I'mthinking with respect to and
obedience.
And so um, right, so there'ssome things I've been uh
contemplating lately.
And uh, for example, like whatdoes it look like when obedience
is not about control, when it'sabout that communion, that

(02:19):
relationship with God, and uhwin is respect not about
performance, but aboutreverence, and how can like
growing more obedient with uh toGod bring greater freedom in my
life?
I know we were just talking inthe last episode, maybe about um

(02:40):
uh intentionality, right?
Um and so anyway, so these are alot of thoughts that have been
kind of percolating lately, andum, and so wanted to talk with
you about it.
One of the vows you took um as apriest is towards obedience
specifically.
So I'm hoping you can help meconsider and explore what
respect and obedience look like,not just as like religious, um,

(03:05):
but and not just in a spiritualreligious aspect either, uh, in
all of our lives, but outside ofthat kind of um that realm.
How does how do our ourunderstanding of respect and
obedience, maybe from aspiritual or Christian
standpoint, in uh inform how weapproach respect and obedience

(03:26):
outside of that in the kind ofsocial realm?
And so um, so maybe you can youcan help.
Let's start with like what iswhat respect and obedience is
and what it is not that might behelpful.

SPEAKER_02 (03:39):
Okay, okay.
Well, uh you chose some wordsthat are uh kind of complicated
and multi-layered.

SPEAKER_00 (03:52):
Uh so I think that's my job.
Yeah.
You did it, you did it well.

SPEAKER_02 (03:57):
So I I think in terms of respect and obedience,
I think for us as Catholics andall Christians, respect is
somehow linked to honor orhonoring someone.
That's what respect is aboutthat.
We give someone honor, we thatwe hold them in honor.

(04:18):
Because you've linked respectand obedience in your
consideration, then uh I'm goingto make the supposition that you
are speaking of respecting andorbeying and or obeying those in
authority over us.
And if this is true, then Iwould like also to suggest that

(04:39):
there's a subtle point in thequestion of respect and
obedience.
We'll get uh I'll touch on thata little bit later.
Usually when we speak ofrespecting someone, it points to
a positive view that we have ofthat person, of that someone, of
that institution, of thatoffice, right?

(05:01):
It may be a sense of admirationfor qualities that we see in the
person that has that authority,in that person's behavior or way
of living, or their stance orperspective on life.
Um for example, I can respectthe discipline of those who
serve us in the military, thosewho serve us in law enforcement.

(05:24):
Uh, I can respect the desire toserve the common good in those
who are first responders orvolunteer first responders, uh,
the gospel or evangelical valuesof those who speak and act in
the name of the poor, and themarginalized, there's something
to be respected and honored inthat.

(05:44):
But at the bottom of all thesevariables, uh, there is a value
or worth in a person that werespect.
And I think that's wheresometimes the difficulty comes
is a person who is in a place ofan authority, right?
And so is that personrespectable?
Is that person honorable?

(06:05):
And if they're not, that's goingto affect the way that I see
their authority or their officeand my capacity to respect
and/or obey them.
So there's there's some layersthat we'll have to get into.
Yeah, yeah.
So I think in the context of ourfaith, respect is something that

(06:26):
is inherent in our understandingof gospel values that Christ
taught, the gospel values thathe lived during his earthly
ministry, and in those person,in whose person our
understanding of respect isrooted.
So it's about Christ, really.
It's respecting Christ for us asChristians and his teachings and

(06:50):
his uh example of living a lifeof uh discipleship and the
covenantal life, right?
So then for me as a Christian, Ihave an obligation as a
disciple, as a believer, torespect the dignity of all
persons, regardless of theirstation in life, regardless of

(07:11):
their possession or lackthereof, regardless of their
outer appearance or religiousaffiliation, because that is
what Jesus lived, Jesus taught,and Jesus exemplified for us.
It is an acknowledgement, first,of the dignity of all creation.
Secondly, it's anacknowledgement of the corporal
and spiritual being of allpersons.

(07:33):
And as a disciple, theacknowledgement that I, as a
believer, am obligated to seeall as sons and daughters of our
Heavenly Father, and thereforein Christ as my brothers and
sisters.
So there's lots of levels herethat we would have to, you know,
sort of start unpacking andconsider in terms of my

(07:53):
understanding of obedience andrespect.
Yeah.
So in the question of respect,in our organic body as faith and
the organism of our faith, wehave to start with a very early
statement of faith, and that isthat Jesus is Lord.

(08:13):
That statement carries a lot ofweight, as well as the oriental
understanding of majesty,dignity, and honor that is due
to the Lord, to the Kyria, tothe Christos.
The Lord is someone to whom Iowe respect and obedience.
And the fact that this was oneof the first creedal statements,
yeah, Jesus is Lord.

(08:35):
That means that there's uh Ihave an obligation to him as
Lord to follow him, to obey himand to respect him, his his
teachings and the example thathe leaves us, right?
Okay, then this then segues intothe topic of obedience.

(08:57):
Obedience is something that isowed to someone who has some
level of authority over us.
In the religious realm, in thehierarchy of the church, we
would be talking about popes,bishops, priests that are
pastors, religious superiors,spiritual directors.

(09:18):
And just as all authority isfounded upon and flows from God
the Father, obedience finds itsperfection and font in the
obedience of Jesus Christ.
I will have to say thatauthority in its perfection is
found in God the Father, andobedience in its perfection is

(09:40):
found in the obedience of JesusChrist.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (09:44):
I wish I had um like a sound effects board or some
some ability to set an alarm offright now because there's a nerd
alert happening in my brain.
Okay.
Every time you bring up uhEastern understandings uh or
yeah, Eastern understanding ofconcepts.
My just my nerd alert goes onbecause I then I become so

(10:04):
fascinated because then Iwonder, um, like you're saying,
the the Eastern understanding ofLord and then obedience and
respect and all that kind ofstuff.
It makes me go, do I don't thewhat's the Princess Bride uh
quote?
Like the the the word you keepsaying, I don't think it means
what you think it means.
I don't I don't think I knowwhat it means appropriately.

(10:27):
Like I don't think I have thefull understanding of it in my
Western modern culture.

SPEAKER_02 (10:34):
Right.
And I think that's part that'smissing in our Western
Christianity is the orientalunderstanding of these things,
for example, ambassador, uhMajesty, King, uh even Friend of
Caesar, which is very Western.
Uh all those things that for theOriental mind, a Lord, a king,

(11:00):
is someone that is invested withsome sort of divine power,
right?
There's there's some sort ofmanifestation of the divinity
there, right?
And so when we say Lord, theoriental understanding, the
Eastern understanding of that isthat this is and of course Jesus
is divine, yeah, obviously, butthe fact that he is Lord, that

(11:26):
there is I have an obligation, aduty.
It is it would be dishonorablefor me not to be obedient to my
Lord.
It would be shameful for me tonot obey my Lord, because then I
would be disrespecting themajesty and the honor of that

(11:47):
office of that person, right?

SPEAKER_00 (11:50):
And so I think Yeah, I was gonna say that the when
you said it would be uhdishonorable, I was I was
thinking as you as you weresaying that, that's almost not
strong enough of a word, andthen you said shameful, and I
was like, Yeah, right?
Like it it would be soscandalous if you didn't you
know do the thing that you aresupposed to.
It's like everybody understoodat the time.

(12:13):
This is how this is what Lordmeans, and this is what that
requires of you, right?
And to not do that is just aninsanely shameful kind of thing,
and we don't understand that inthe United States.
It's like, well, I don't likeyou, so I'm not gonna do what
you say.
Exactly.
Well, uh liking you, and I'msure we'll get into this later,
liking you has nothing to dowith if I should be doing what
you say kind of thing.

(12:34):
Exactly, exactly.
Okay, so um like do you have anyany fame uh favorite like
scripture quotes or saint quotesor anything about obedience,
like something that's justalways kind of resonated with
you?

SPEAKER_02 (12:48):
I think the the for me the most I think challenging
um and thereby uh growth, umproducing uh scripture passage

(13:08):
from myself, my own reflection.
It comes from the hymn to Christthat is found in Philippians,
and this is where Paul isspeaking about uh the humility
uh of Christ and emptyinghimself, right?
And I think for me it's sort oflike and being found in human
form, he humbled himself bybecoming becoming obedient to

(13:32):
the point of death, even deathon a cross.
For me, this obedience of Christto the point of death is
something that's continuously isa challenge.
Uh and is always like, okay,dude, you know, like cowboy up.
So uh how are you, how are youfacing obedience, right?
Um this whole idea of kenosisthat Christ empties himself,

(13:55):
which I think is part andpartial of obedience because it
asks of me some level ofemptying of myself, emptying of
my ego, emptying of my pride,uh, emptying myself of like I
know better, or like, you know,or my reason or whatever, right?
Not that obedience means that weare blind, it's blind obedience

(14:18):
and we do stupid things.
No, it's asking of me to submitmy will, my desire to do what I
want to do, and to bridle that,to to reign that back and to
enter into a task that is askedof me that someone else desires

(14:43):
for me to do, right?

SPEAKER_00 (14:44):
And yeah, because it's it's all other centered.
Yes, right, and that's the samething like trust is not about
you, it's about it's putting thefocus on the other person thing,
whatever.
And so you're kind of dancingaround some stuff and like as as
a Carmelite.
So um, like what does it meantfor you as a Carmelite?

(15:04):
And like, is there any kind ofmoment where it be obedience
became something that was likebeautiful, or it was like
freedom in that obedience versusfeeling like, oh, I have to do
this thing out of obligation.

SPEAKER_02 (15:22):
It depends where you find yourself and what is being
asked of you, I guess.
Yeah, because because obediencepurifies our will, right?
Our will is like the can be veryegocentrical and prideful and
stuff, and the the whole idea ofpreserving my autonomy, right?
So because obedience purifiesour will, it is one of the most

(15:46):
difficult aspects ofChristianity because its aim is
to lead us to a freedom ofspirit that allows us to serve
in complete trust without biasor prejudice, right?
And that's the challenge.
The challenge is that theobedience is asking me to trust.

(16:06):
Obedience is asking me to stepoutside of my own preferences,
my own bias, my own prejudice.
We are called to obey the gospelway of life as Christians,
right?
That we're called to obey thatway of life, and that is
difficult to live a gospel life.
As a religious, I have taken avow, uh a vow of obedience, a

(16:32):
solemn promise to apply thisaspect of obedience and poverty
and chastity to my life.
So diocesan priests and thosewho belong to religious
congregations instead ofreligious orders do not take a
vow but take a promise.
The obligation is the same, andthe only difference is a

(16:53):
juridical one.
The only difference between myvow and a promise is the fact
that uh to be released from myvow, it has to go all the way to
the Holy See.
Uh, and for uh someone thatbelongs to a congregation, it
only has to go to their generalor to their superior, depending
on what uh institution theybelong to.
Uh but the point of theobedience is it really how it's

(17:18):
it helps us to it should, Ishould say, it should help us to
be objective about ourselves andour will, and how at times the
ego can get in the way of umliving a life of discipleship.

SPEAKER_01 (17:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (17:40):
There have been times when I've been asked to do
something that I did not carefor, and I had to apply myself
to complete it.
And there have been times when Ihave been told to do something
which I personally did not agreewith, but had to comply with

(18:01):
because of my vows.
This of you know is of course,it's purifying and it's
difficult.
But if we carry it out well, itcan also lead to a greater
freedom from the self's desireto do what I want to do, my
preference, my brothers.
And it helps us to see things ina different light and hopefully

(18:24):
with a different understandingthan when initially undertaken.
There develops an understandingthat even though I cannot
understand God's hand in thisparticular situation, I can
entrust it to him and surrenderwhatever the outcome may be to
him and his plan.
For example, one of the things,one of the first difficult

(18:45):
things for me was after I gotback from Spain.
Uh, we had a chapter, and theprovincial and the council uh
appointed me to be superior uhuh Merrillake at the castle.
And I said, I can't be superior,and the provincial says, Why?

(19:05):
I go, because those people havebeen religious longer than I
have.
I'm the I would be the youngestmember of the community, and I
can't go and and be superiorover them.
And then he shut me down realquick.
He goes, What he said was, Doyou think so little of your
brothers that they cannot acceptyou as a superior?

SPEAKER_00 (19:29):
Dang.
It's like he didn't even make itabout you.
He just you didn't even have achance.

SPEAKER_02 (19:38):
Wow, holy cow! So yeah, so after he knocked me
over with a two by four, I said,Well uh what could I say?
It's like I yeah, I guess I'llokay, I guess I'll go.

SPEAKER_00 (19:48):
So what was his name?

SPEAKER_02 (19:49):
Father Aloysius, he passed away recently.

SPEAKER_00 (19:52):
Oh, bless his soul.
Um man, that's man, what a goodstory.
It was.

SPEAKER_02 (19:59):
I mean, he did he just just sort of like totally
out of left field.
I was not expecting that.
And I go like, holy, yeah, okay.
Sort of basically, yeah,challenging me to step outside
of myself.

SPEAKER_00 (20:12):
Like, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 (20:14):
Thank you, Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
Yeah.
So, like, so far, a lot of thiskind of stuff, it makes me think
about um child and parent kindof relationship, which it
probably should, because God'sour father and He we're his
children, and there are thingsthat we want to do, and God's
like, don't do that.
Um and um, and then you can goread the Bible for yourself,

(20:38):
right?
Um, because that's basically thewhole story.
But anyway, so um, so it'sinteresting how it's just it's
um triggering all those kinds ofthoughts in my head as we're
talking.

SPEAKER_02 (20:49):
Um Yeah, and again again, I think that's I think
that's where a lot of ourunderstanding of obedience and
respect comes from from ourearly formation.
And so if you have goodformation and good models, then
as you get as you grow older,you don't have a problem with
authority or obedience.
And I'll talk about that alittle bit later too, because if
you don't have a good example,then you're gonna find yourself
struggling with respect andobedience, period.

SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
Yeah, and this is probably where a lot of our
wounds, and like I said at thebeginning, the twistedness uh of
these words in our lives comefrom, like those bad um
examples, yes.
Yeah.
So when so with uh respect,right?
So that's obedience withrespect.
Like, how does your communitylive that like when you're
saying like you've been asked todo stuff and you didn't

(21:33):
necessarily agree, or been toldto do stuff and you didn't
agree?
So, like, how do you do respectwhen you when there's a
disagreement as well?

SPEAKER_02 (21:42):
Hmm.
When it when it comes torespect, um, and for us as
religious because of ourreligious communal life, there
is what I would call aninstitutional respect of
authority, it's sort of part ofthe culture, right?
Uh, the religious culture torespect those in authority.
Uh in many ways, it it is likemilitary service.

(22:06):
There is obedience and respect,even if there is disagreement,
right?
And at times we can bedisappointed or angry with
someone's behavior or lackthereof in the community.
And how it resolves itselfdepends on the maturity of the
individuals involved.
Uh it's there's no uniform wayof doing it, depends on, again,

(22:26):
like we just talked about, thethe early formation, their
formative life that they lived,and their understanding of
obedience and respect, and howthat works out in the in amongst
the individuals in thecommunity.
Usually it is worked out amongthe members themselves.
Usually there's there's somelevel of maturity that they will
talk about themselves, they'lltalk it out themselves, they'll

(22:48):
they'll work it throughthemselves.
When it comes to respectingthose in authority over us, uh,
I have never witnessed any typeof disrespectful interaction as
far as I've noticed or witnessedmyself.
There can be disagreements andeven strong disagreements, but I
have never witnessed or heard ofany type of disrespect of anyone

(23:12):
in authority.
So again, there is thatinstitutional sort of like, this
is what's expected, this is whatyou've signed up for, this is
how we live.
And so this is part of what'sasked of us as religious, right?
And so I think uh I've neverreally run into it.
I mean, I've heard of stories ofin the old days, right?
Um about stuff like that, youknow, arguments and fights and

(23:36):
stuff like that, but not thatI've not that I've witnessed in
my life, no.

SPEAKER_00 (23:41):
Yeah.
Well, and and and that kind ofmakes me that you went to kind
of strong examples or lack ofstrong examples of disagreement
and and stuff like that.
A lot of people, I think,nowadays, especially, if I
disagree with you, I'm beinghateful towards you or something
like that too, right?
So it's like this weird, superstrong connection, um, as

(24:03):
opposed to just no, I don'tagree with you.
And that's okay, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (24:08):
Right.
And I think that it goes back toagain to human formation and
human maturity.
Um, if you don't, you know, youmight have an opinion or a
preference.
Uh but that shouldn't I thatshould not identify who you are
and a disagreement with someone.

(24:28):
If somebody disagrees with youover your opinion, that has
nothing to do with who you withwho you are as a person.
It's not disagreeing with you asa person, it's disagreeing with
your opinion, your yourattitude, or your vision, right?
And so I think sometimes uhthere's a lack of maturity in

(24:49):
understanding that my opinion isjust that, it's an opinion, or
my preference is just that, it'sa preference.
And so I think sometimes we getconfused and we feel uh
violated, I think it's a strongword, but to have my my desire,
my my want violated, I take itas a personal violation instead

(25:10):
of like, well, no, yeah, that'sjust not I don't agree with you,
or I don't agree with thatviewer perspective.
And to to be able to respecteach other even in that
disagreement.

SPEAKER_00 (25:25):
Yeah.
So okay, so then so now like Iguess going back to obedience,
then I I think a lot of peoplestruggle with it.
Um I I don't know, thinkingabout myself too, like there's
been times where I'm sure Ihave, um, but I I know a lot of
people who struggle withobedience, especially like when

(25:47):
it's not clear who or whatthey're really um being asked to
obey, and uh and maybe it feelsmore like control than trust.
And and to me, like this startsreally getting to like
relationship.
Um, I don't have a relationshipwith this person or this

(26:08):
organization, like you'resaying, y'all are Carmelites,
y'all know what you signed upfor, y'all have been formed in
this, so you have a relationshipwith the community and the
concepts of the commutecommunity too, right?
So, like I can see like thislike people feeling like they're
being controlled, and instead oflike in when there's a
disagreement, instead of feelinglike I'm being heard or

(26:30):
understood, it's just nope, I'mbeing controlled in this.
Somebody's telling me what tothink, think or say or do kind
of thing.
So, like, there's this tensionbetween oneself and the other.
And again, it makes me thinkthere's like a component of
trust and love um in all ofthis, which are you know the the
virtues, I think hope and andcharity kind of come to mind

(26:53):
because you're focused on theother and not yourself.
And this is not maybe everysituation, right?
Like I don't need to love myboss, you know what I mean.
But but but there is arelationship there, right?
Um, and then a more personalrelationship like you and me,
like there should be trust andlove, there should be hope and
charity in our relationship,which helps me to respect and be

(27:17):
obedient towards you, kind ofthing.

SPEAKER_02 (27:22):
I think um immediately I'm thinking of you
know, they're there within thechurch and outside of the
church, within the community offaith and outside the community
of faith.
The first thing that I thoughtof as I was listening to you and
this tension, right?
I immediately, again, movie.
Um Did you see Hacksaw Ridge?

SPEAKER_00 (27:45):
I know the title.
I I don't know if I have.
I I know the title.

SPEAKER_02 (27:48):
Maybe if you talk, I'll remember if I'm saying this
young soldier who for religiouspurposes cannot or will not
carry arms, will not uh fire,right?
He because uh it goes againsthis his religious conscience,
right?

(28:09):
And so everybody makes fun ofhim, everybody's picking on him,
and so he becomes he's a medic,but he is always the butt of
jokes, and people disrespect himbecause he's not the killing
machine that he should be,right?
You know, this whole crap,right?
Anyway, um so winds up, theyfind themselves uh trying to

(28:31):
take over this ridge, HexawRidge, and that these people are
getting absolutely massacred,right?
And so the the army uh they theyrun away.
Uh so as as they pull back,they're pulling back, and they
they all the armies, you know,the all the uh troops are are

(28:53):
called back.
But this kid, um as a medic, hekeeps going back to save people,
to drag people, to drag peopleback in.
So, you know, as they've allthey're all have left the hill,
and so who's up there?
And there's this dude, and hekeeps going back into the line
of fire, and he keeps draggingpeople back out of harm's way,

(29:18):
right?
All these wounded people, and soeven though he did not um uh
carry arms, and he refused tocarry arms, and because of his
religious conviction, he had togo in there and he saved those
people out of his religiousconviction, right?
And so I was thinking aboutthat.
There is that tension there,like, okay, so he refused to

(29:42):
obey uh to kill people, to carryarms, but he was still in the
military and he was stilldedicated as a medic and he
served in that way.
And um so there there aremoments and times when you can.
Out of conscience, you know,disobey, and you have to suffer

(30:04):
the consequences of that.
But again, it's keeping your ownmoral dignity, right?
This is where the respect andthe tension comes, rhyme, right?
So that's outside, that'soutside the realm of uh the
hierarchy of the church.
In the human realm of thehierarchy, we have to take into
consideration the humanness ofthe vehicle, that is the person

(30:28):
placed in a position ofauthority.
So bishops, popes, whatever theyare, they're still human beings,
they're still flawed, they'restill sinful, they're still
broken and wounded and in theprocess of being redeemed.
They do not cease being humanand imperfect.
So we have to make a distinctionbetween the office that they

(30:48):
hold and the person that fillsthat office.
For example, the Petrine office,the office of the papacy and the
individuals that hold thatoffice of authority.
There is only one Petrineoffice, but there have been
hundreds of individuals who havehad to fill that office, each

(31:09):
with their own perspective andeach with their own style of
administration.
And because of people'sdifficulty in separating the
person or personality of the oneholding the office from the
office itself, it leads topeople into falling into
disobedience or being selectivein their obedience or being

(31:30):
rebellious or just beingoutright, you know, just
refusing to obey, which thenrenders, you know, that
selective obedience or thatresentful obedience, it makes it
less than meritorious.
It's not really obedienceanymore, because basically it's
stating, I'll only obey if Ilike or I or I agree with what

(31:53):
you are asking of me, or I willobey because I like you, or I
won't obey because I don't likeyou, right?
And so then that those elementscome into our interaction or
relationship with obedience andrespect.
Again, granted, there arepersons who are either good or
bad leaders, good or badadministrators.

(32:15):
There are persons who have theirown struggles yet are asked to
undertake the burden ofleadership or of authority.
Some of these individualsfulfill the role wonderfully,
and others who do it badly.
The fine line comes to beingable to respect the person.

(32:36):
Respect, I'm sorry, respect theoffice that the person holds and
be respectful and obedientbecause of the office and not
necessarily because of theperson that holds that
particular office.
That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 (32:50):
Yeah, and I think I think the unfortunately,
fortunately, I guess, dependingon how much you you trust um the
Holy Spirit.
Uh popes are a great examplebecause man, we've had a handful
of not so good ones.
You know what I mean?
Um all especially back in likethe Middle Ages and all that

(33:12):
stuff.
There was all sorts of bad stuffgoing on.
The Borgia popes.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And so it's like, yeah, nerdlerkagain.
Um we don't go on a historicaltangent, but there's how hard
would it have been to so see tohave to be obedient to uh a pope

(33:35):
who is so blatantly living insin.
Right.
You know what I mean?
Um yeah, I don't like I couldn'timagine and well, and especially
our day and age, nobody nobodywould do that.
They'd be like, nope, thisinvalidates the whole church, or
nope, the the chair of Peter isempty, or nope, like whatever,

(33:58):
you know what I mean?
Like everyone would just revolt,and that is a maybe a good segue
back to our descent um episode,which was what episode season
one, episode six.
Okay, yeah.
Um anyway, remember the how doyou disagree and all that kind

(34:20):
of stuff um without revolting,right?
Descent and and revolt aredifferent, but anyway, yeah, so
it just it makes me think abouta lot of those those kinds of
things, and and maybe in my lifewhen I've been asked to do stuff
too, um, or when the personwho's asking me, I just oh, I
can't get behind that person,but who they are or the office,

(34:41):
the position that they hold, Ineed to respect, you know.
Yeah.
So like what about like as apriest?
Have you ever been in a kind ofsituation?
Not so so much necessarily, ormaybe not so much as a
Carmelite, but just like as apriest.
Or maybe as a Carmelite, youknow, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 (34:59):
I think so far.
So far.

SPEAKER_01 (35:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (35:04):
Up until this point, the only time that I've really
experienced tension with someonewho has been under me as a
subject has been with someonewho seemed to have problems with
authority figures, period.
That is, with the office ofauthority and whoever happened

(35:24):
to fill that office.
Things were difficult, but I hadthe capacity to not take it as a
personal rebuff as you know asme as a person, as much as it
was as a psychologicalimpediment between us.
I knew that this existed, and Iknew it existed, but you know,

(35:46):
the other person did not,obviously, because they're the
ones with the problem.
There's once they're the oneswith the authority figure.
And of course, no matter what Isay, I'm wrong, and I always
will be wrong because I'm in aposition of authority.
And so to me, that helps tounderstand that relation and
forms that relationrelationship.
But then again, that speaks moreto a personal psychological and

(36:09):
human formation problem, whichyou have to maneuver because you
cannot order someone topsychological health.
You know, you can like I, youknow, I put you, I place you
under obedience to to bepsychologically healthy, right?
Or to heal yourself or whatever.
No, you can't.

SPEAKER_01 (36:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (36:27):
And so I had to have an emotional distance and in and
an indifference to be able todeal with that very difficult
situation uh in a way that uhhinders that person or hindered
that person from causing harm tothe larger community because I

(36:49):
had to, I had to, again, I hadto correct and I had to do some
stuff to um minimize the damagehe was causing in the community.
But of course, he wasn't able tosee that, and so again, I still
have to sort of be there and beindifferent and be emotionally
removed from the situation andstill function as an office

(37:12):
without authority to try and toisolate this person from the
rest of the community so thisperson doesn't harm uh the rest
of the community.
So yeah, it's those aredifficult tense situations.

SPEAKER_00 (37:24):
Um because you kind of imagine I was saying, I
imagine you you grew a lot inthat situation too.

SPEAKER_02 (37:30):
Oh, yeah.
I had to there was again, it wasa it's a a situation which God
used, you know, for for my owngrowth.
And so again, what happens isyou have to have a more a more
nuanced understanding of what itmeans to be in authority, and
when you've been in authorityand then you're a subject again,

(37:52):
then you understand all thenuances of holding that office,
and it makes you much moreunderstanding and and um about
the office and the thecomplexity of the office.

SPEAKER_00 (38:05):
Yeah.
Do you think um do you need tobe a good leader to be a good
follower, or vice versa?
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 (38:13):
It helps.
I mean, there are people who aregreat at commanding and terrible
at following orders, and thereare people that are great at
following orders and terrible atcommanding or having authority.
So it depends on on your uhagain, your abilities, right?

SPEAKER_00 (38:29):
Yeah, your personal disposition kind of yeah.
Um can you can you be obedient?
Like, well, is it in thisexample?
Can you really be obedient tosomething or someone if you
don't respect them?
Hmm.
Like if respect and obedience,if if my kind of theory here is

(38:52):
that they are linked to somedegree.

SPEAKER_02 (38:55):
Like, can you there's a subtle distinction,
and again, goes back to itdepends a lot on the maturity or
lack of maturity of theindividual or individuals
involved, either as a subject oras a person in a place of
authority.
I can respect the office ofsomeone in authority and maybe

(39:15):
not respect the person's way ofbehaving or interacting with
others.
Again, it goes to the capacityto separate the behavior from
the person and the behavior andthe person from the office that
they hold.

unknown (39:30):
St.

SPEAKER_02 (39:31):
John of the Cross tells us that we should not have
in mind the person's qualities,good or ill, when it comes to
obedience, but we should have inmind the office which they hold
and the office through whichChrist manifests his will in my
life.
Humanly speaking, it is easierto obey someone you respect or

(39:52):
love, and a lot harder to obeysomeone who, in your eyes, is
lacking in something worthrespecting.

SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
So then just trying to think.
So there's so respect andobedience, like I was saying at
the excuse me, I was saying inat the beginning, there's like
all these different layers tothings, right?

(40:21):
So um there could be an aspectof mutual respect here, like I
have to like can you lead if youdon't respect the people you're
leading, or the people that youor uh uh if you have authority
over people, can you really dothat if you don't respect them,

(40:42):
right?
Like I might respect God as myauthority and I want to be like
him, but I don't respect thepeasants, you know.
I'm thinking like the kings ofold kind of thing, like I don't
respect the peasants, then can Ireally um be in a place of
authority?
And or if I don't trust theperson that I'm obeying, then

(41:02):
and I know you're like we'retalking about all the the the
personal nature, like everyone'sa unique snowflake, right?
So everyone has to take intoaccount themselves in this kind
of intellectual exercise we'redoing, right?
So it's like if I don't respectthem, then am I obeying just out
of fear of punishment and notlove or not really out of

(41:24):
respect of the the office orwhatever.
And and may um maybe love issometimes it's the right word,
maybe sometimes it's the wrong.
But um I don't know, it justmakes me think how like it kind
of goes back in some situations,especially really personal
relationships, um, or reallyintimate relationships in our
life, how love and trust are abig kind of part of all of it.

(41:49):
So then thinking like so likedid how did your vow for
obedience like how has it shapedyou in your formation as a
priest, in your community, as aperson, you know, when you've

(42:13):
had to obey things that you'relike you've been asked to do
that you didn't necessarilyagree with, um, or or like, and
like how did you stay groundedin all of that?
You know, like how did you learnto step back enough to have the
objectivity to go through thesethings, you know?
Okay.
Uh good.

(42:34):
I know that's a lot.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (42:36):
Good questions, good probing questions.
Um, okay, so the the vow or orthe promise of obedience is
meant to be a structure likepoverty, chastity, obedience.
For us, it is a structure withinour our religious lives or our
lives as ministers, right?
And they should help us todevelop the virtues, right?

(42:57):
The virtue of obedience, thevirtue of chastity, the virtue
uh uh of being able to live thisevangelical life and the
evangelical councils.
And so that is where obedience,you know, as a virtue, that's
where obedience becomeslife-giving and spirit-led.

(43:19):
But before I can come to thatplace of having the virtue of
obedience, I have to be able todiscipline myself in the vow of
obedience.
I have to discipline myself inobeying to attack that very
fundamental desire to do what Iwant to do, when I want to, and
how I want to.

(43:40):
And that cuts deep because webecome aware of how selfish and
egotistical we can be.
And that is where the deeperconversion happens in that
conversion of the will.
That is the area in which we arechallenged to be other-centered
in that will, to let go of theego, the selfish ego, and to be

(44:03):
other-centered as Christ wasother-centered, to leave my
ego-centered perspective asideand genuinely consider the
well-being of others.
And then the question ofobedience, to trust in a will,
the divine will, uh, God's will,uh, the will of the church, uh,

(44:24):
that that will is greater thanmine, and their under the
understanding is greater than myunderstanding.

unknown (44:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:30):
It kind of makes me think real quick of um just kind
of some of the things that wewere saying in our
intentionality episode.
Um, the the intention of showingup to the things like we're
you're talking about, like uhthe discipline, right?
I know I I I give my consent tothat this will is greater than

(44:52):
mine.
And so then my intention is Iwant to follow this will that is
greater than mine.
There's a respect there and thenobedience that drives the
intention, that drives thediscipline formation and things
like that.
And I think um I was readingconfessions um the other day,
Saint uh Augustine.
Do you say Augustine orAugustine?

SPEAKER_02 (45:11):
What do you say?
I say Augustine.

SPEAKER_00 (45:14):
Augustine.
So I was reading his confession,and um he talks about these
kinds of things too, I think,like how selfish he was as a
child and how we're born thatway and things like that.
So it's really interesting.
Anyway, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 (45:27):
That's fine.
No, no, good.
Um so again, so this whole thingabout formation and being formed
in obedience and being formed inthe vows.
I think in initial formation,like any recruit, uh, there is a
zeal and a desire to do allthings well.

unknown (45:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:47):
And thank God, you know, I walked into religious
life with my eyes wide open.
I wasn't expecting perfection.
I was expecting mature adultmen.
And in fact, before I entered,my dad wanted to talk to me
about what I expected, right?
What do you expect when you'reyounger?
What is it that you'reexpecting?
What are you, you know, youwanted to make sure that I

(46:08):
wasn't entering withrose-colored glasses and and
that I wasn't expecting to seeeverybody levitate during
prayer.
So like these are men, they'reyou know, they're human, and so
I want to make sure that youunderstand what you're getting
into.
And so, yeah, so yeah.
Right.
And even with your eyes wideopen, there's still the ideal

(46:30):
that we all desire, the idealthat we all are striving for.
So, in initial formation, as youobserve the community, you begin
to see the various levels ofhuman psychological maturity, as
in any family.
There is a plethora ofcharacters and personalities,
and and each one is attemptingto respond to God's call to give

(46:52):
themselves to Him in prayer andservice.
And because as a newbie, youknow, full of zeal and ideals,
you begin to notice thehumanness of the formators.
Some very wholly dedicated menwho are journeying to empty the
self of selfish ego, and otherswho are struggling with defects
of personality, and yet both areinstruments through which you

(47:19):
are being formed.

SPEAKER_00 (47:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (47:22):
Do you think that's a big that's maybe one of the
biggest challenges for yeah,definitely, because you have to
accept the humanness or thelimitedness of the formator.
Uh and that happens all thetime, everywhere, everywhere.
Uh, every seminary and everyfirst person that comes in,

(47:43):
they're coming in to change thechange the church and save the
church and change the order,change the diocese or whatever.
Like you're like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (47:52):
And then they're like, what are y'all doing?

SPEAKER_02 (47:57):
You're like, yeah, you don't understand.
Uh so anyway, during one of myassignments, I had a superior
who I personally did not respectas a person.
Uh he tended to be argumentativeand contradictory.
He was absent from most of thecommunity acts and things like
that.
That made respecting him andobeying him very difficult.

(48:22):
But even in a distastefulsituation like that, you have to
separate, again, the person fromthe office and respect the
office they hold, regardless ofthe person that holds that
office.
Of course, it would come down toif you know, if it comes down to
a question of abuse of office,then you're not bound to obey.

(48:44):
You're not bound to obeyanything that is asked of you
that is, that is sinful.
And there are channels throughwhich you can voice your
concerns and seek adviceoutside, right?
If you have a superior that youfind is you have a difficult
time with, yeah, there arechannels and there are ways in
which you can address this andseek counsel, right, within the
order and within theadministrative uh channels,

(49:06):
right?
To help you understand and helpyou deal with the situation.
So that there's ways of dealingwith again because we've been at
it for you know a while now.
We've been at it for a while, sowe we know the human elements
and all the human differentpossibilities that that occur.

SPEAKER_00 (49:25):
Do you do you think um do you think that experience
uh with that person um I'mthinking like before and after,
do you think you were good atkind of keeping yourself
separated from the person orbeing able to separate the
person from the office prior tothat?
Or do you think that experiencereally helped you to kind of

(49:47):
grow in that ability?

SPEAKER_02 (49:49):
I think it was I think it was a growth uh a
growth point because it reallymade it the only possible way
for me to continue to live incommunity uh without losing my
mind, would be to be able to dothat, to make the distinction
between the office of authoritythat they had and the person

(50:12):
that was in that office.

SPEAKER_00 (50:16):
Um what is a cat is the catechism says, like we
can't it is wrong for us to actagainst our conscience.
Yes, I'm super paraphrasing,right?
So it's like at some point intime you have to there's a
discernment, like I know whatyou're asking me to do, and I I

(50:37):
completely respect your positionand all that stuff, but what
you're asking me to do, like Ireally think is wrong, and I
think that's a that's a hardline to to figure out, like, not
that I don't like it, but it'swrong, right?

SPEAKER_02 (50:52):
The informed conscience, you have to inform
your conscience, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (50:55):
Yeah, yeah.
So how do you keep it from justbecoming like rigid?
Like, you know, like you thinkyou see in the military or
whatever, it's like go kill theguys.
Okay, you told me to do it, I'mnot even gonna think, I'm gonna
go do it.
You know, like or likelegalistic, even it's like, what
does the law say?

(51:15):
But you know, Jesus is alwayslike, what is the nature of the
law?
What uh so like how do you keepit from from being technical and
something like that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (51:24):
That would depend again solely on the individual
uh that is called to obedience,right?
If the authority, again, uh thisis a two-way street, if the
person in authority, thesuperior, uh, is rigid or
legalistic, that wouldcomplicate the situation some.
But the real change or obediencewould reside in the person that

(51:48):
is being called to obedience.
If the subject is being what iscalled nowadays, you know,
maliciously compliant, that thatis nothing more than a
passive-aggressive disobedienceand disrespect, completely
opposite of what a Christian orreligious person should be
doing.
So there is a way of beingobedient in a way that is

(52:09):
disrespectful and passiveaggressive, and there's a way of
actually submitting the will.
And that's where the realobedience is, is the submission
of will.
And again, it doesn't mean thatyou become a robot or automaton,
but that you know, you gothrough the process of
discernment and asking yourself,you know, is this a growth point
for me?

(52:29):
Is God asking me to grow andexpand my understanding, or is
God asking me to grow inhumility, right?
To do this thing that I may notcare for or may not like doing?

SPEAKER_00 (52:41):
Yeah.
One of the things like it makesme think about is obedience.
Um, like in at least in my mind,right?
I'm not saying this is corrector anything, but um how do I say
it?
Like, if a like for some reason,like the imagery of like a dog

(53:01):
comes to mind, like an obedientdog, the master says it you and
it, you do it, right?
There's no thinking, it doesn'tmatter what your will is,
doesn't matter what your desireis, you have been domesticated
to the point where you've youjust follow orders.
And then in that again, in myimagery in my mind, it's like
there's a excuse me, there'slike the dog wears a collar,

(53:25):
right?
There's just all these kinds ofthings of like subjugation
almost, right?
And so it's like like we want tobe obedient, right?
You're saying it's a virtue, soit's like I don't want to lose
my dignity in this.
It should be something that isbrings about a freedom, right?

(53:47):
A virtue.
So it's like, how do I do thiswithout losing my dignity?
How do I show respect and youknow be obedient when uh you
know I'm hurting or when Idisagree?
Um, how do I be obedient whenlike I feel like I should say
something to this person that islike maybe a hard truth that

(54:08):
they need to hear if if whetherI'm in a position of authority
or the per the position of uhfollowing, right?
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 (54:19):
I think you know dignity, dignity is something
that we each have, and ourdignity is not dependent on
being disobedient ordisrespectful or obedient and
respectful.
Dignity is an understanding ofthe self, an understanding of
who I am, again, as God's child,and to truly understand and

(54:41):
believe that, and that that isthe center of your existence,
right?
That's how you see yourself andunderstand yourself.
So that I can be obedient evenin a situation that I am not in
agreement with, and stillmaintain my dignity.
Again, it is a matter ofpersonal maturity and
understanding the greater schemeof things.

(55:02):
And I think that's again, itgoes back to personal
understanding, personal growth,you know, maturity.
That's where a lot of thisreally is key, right?
We show respect by respectfulobedience.
We can express our disagreementor our hurt, but also state that

(55:22):
we are willing to obey, even ifwe find it difficult to comply
wholly and completely.
Like I don't agree with this, Icompletely disagree.
I don't think this is the righttrack, but okay, but I'm willing
to do this because you're in aperson of authority and this is
your will, and this is what youbelieve to be true, and this is
your area.
This is you have authority overthis area, and you're telling me

(55:43):
to do this, and so okay, I willdo this, but I wanted to let you
know that I don't agree withthis, right?
When it comes to speaking a hardtruth, yeah, we would have to
speak about prudence andtemperance if we're going to
speak a hard truth, right?
Is the person open to the truth?

(56:03):
Are they capable of receivingthe truth you want to share?
You can speak your truth, butwithout the desire to be right
or to win in arguments.
Once you speak the truth, youhave fulfilled your moral and
ethical duty.
Now the onus is on them and howthey receive this truth and how

(56:23):
they treat it and what they dowith it.
You have fulfilled yourobligation.
I don't agree with this.
This is my opinion.
You do with it what you will.
I have I have said this becauseI believe you know God has put
this on my heart.
Now, whatever you do with that,now it's between you and God.
I have fulfilled my obligation.
And if you can if you ask me todo this still, okay, I'll do it.

(56:46):
But I have spoken the truth,right?
In the situation that Imentioned earlier with that
difficult superior, we we had aconfrontation.
He asked me to stop speaking toa particular parishioner who had
befriended me and with whom Ienjoyed talking.
Uh he gave no reason or concern,right?
He just told me he didn't likeit, he didn't want me to speak

(57:07):
into this person.
I found that request weird andattributed it to his just being
weird, right?
Yeah, he later confronted me andordered me, under obedience, to
stop speaking with this person,right?
I stood my ground and I told himin a raised voice, I stood my

(57:32):
ground and I told him that I hadnever allowed my parents to pick
my friends or acquaintances.
And how did he think I wouldallow him to do that?
I told him that as superior, hecould ask me to be moved to
another monastery because thatwas within his rights and within
the sphere of his authority.
But picking my friends was notone of my best moments, but I

(57:56):
was not willing to allow thatagain, violation of my
conscience.
That's a question of conscienceyou brought up earlier.

SPEAKER_00 (58:06):
Yeah, wow.
Yeah, that's just and that justmakes me think of all sorts of
life experiences too, you know.
Like um, like uh again, thinkinguh with my daughter when she was
younger, like uh yeah, I don't Idon't think you really want to

(58:27):
be friends with those kind ofpeople, you know.
And now even older in life, hey,you're going to college, be
mindful of who you're friendswith, kind of things, right?
And she may not well, she shedoesn't um understand the way I
do because she doesn't have thelife experiences that I have at
my age, right?
To be able to know things, butultimately um in that

(58:52):
relationship, she's I I can'tforce her to do X, Y, or Z kind
of thing.
And so um yeah, just the the ohthe tension of human
relationship, right?
It's hard.

SPEAKER_02 (59:07):
Complicated by poverty, translating obedience,
yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (59:11):
Yeah.
Um I've I found this this quotefrom Saint Teresa of Avila, and
it says, I believe, or she says,I believe, that since the devil
sees there is no path that leadsmore quickly to the highest
perfection than obedience, hesets up many annoyances and

(59:33):
difficulties under the color ofgood.
And that I think right therejust speaks right back to what
we were just saying like, how doI how do I approach any kind of
situation where I feel right?
And we talked about feelingsbefore too, feelings are

(59:53):
important, but like I feel thatthis thing is not or that this
other thing is good.
I need to.
Follow this other thing that'sgood, not what's being asked of
me or or whatever.
And then the the answer, theonly answer is we do that
imperfectly, right?
So um, yeah, so I can see likeso obedience is it's less about

(01:00:14):
blind submission, yeah.
It's more of aligning my willwith something other than me,
something greater than me.
And um, you know, Saint Teresain this example, she's she's
speaking first and foremostabout uh obedience to God's
will, um, not to a person orinstitution um as the starting

(01:00:36):
point.
The starting point is God'swill.
What is God's will in thesethings?
And so the question becomes howdo we know when it's God's will
now?
Like, how do I know if this isGod's will that I'm obeying or
trying to be obedient to?
Like when when when are our actsof obedience holy?

(01:00:57):
And when are they sanctifying?
And when are they toxic orfear-based, you know?
Um and I'd think like communityand prayer probably are really
important here.
Um, so you're not you don't turninto your own echo chamber.
Because you know, when you'rethe only one talking to

(01:01:18):
yourself, you're right all thetime.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:24):
As a religious or as a priest, of course, yeah,
diocesan priest, uh you shouldbring it to prayer.
All Christians, I guess.
All Christians should bringthese questions to prayer and
pray about it, right?
You should wait until you're notin an emotional or reactive
state.
You have to come to a place oftranquility and peace, remove

(01:01:47):
that emotion, right, so thatyou're not just reacting.
And then, you know, bring thesituation to someone you trust
to get a more objective view.
You know, consult somebody.
Don't it's not a matter ofgossip.
It's like I need somebody tohelp me to see this in a
different way, or you know, asounding board.
Am I right?
Am I wrong?
You know, and try to understandthe situation.

(01:02:10):
Um if it's a question of adifficult superior or a
difficult bishop, it is a matterof accepting that part of the
suffering is the cross that hascome into our lives.
But there has to be a way ofapproaching the situation, the

(01:02:31):
cross, in a way that may bechallenging but is also
life-giving and positive.
There has to bring us growth,right?
The same may be said for asuperior bishop who has to deal
with a subject that is resistantto obedience.
Again, it's very important toseparate the person from the
office or rank that they hold.
It's not personal, it's achallenge to a person's

(01:02:54):
worldview, and you have toconsider that in your
interaction with that person.
During my novishit, my firstyear as religious, uh, I would
read the precautions of St.
John of the Cross every nightbefore going to bed because I
trusted his insight and I wastrying to understand how to

(01:03:15):
adapt to this new religiousculture.
So in his precautions, he givesadvice against uh our three
enemies, the world, the flesh,and the devil.
And just like Teresa, he putsobedience under the precaution
uh against the devil.
So the second precaution againstthe devil, St.
John of the Cross says, Let thesecond precaution be that you

(01:03:40):
always look upon the superior asthough upon God, no matter who
he happens to be, for he takesGod's place.
And note that the devil,humility's enemy, is a great and
crafty meddler in this area.
Watch therefore with singularcare that you study neither his

(01:04:03):
character, his mode of bus hismode of behavior, his ability,
or any of his other methods ofprocedure, for you will harm
yourself as to change yourobedience from divine to human,
being motivated only by thevisible traits of the superior

(01:04:25):
and not by the invisible Godwhom you serve through him.
Your obedience is vain and allthe more fruitless in the
measure that you allow thesuperior's unpleasant character
to annoy you, or his good andpleasing manners to make you
happy.
If you do not strive withrespect to your personal

(01:04:47):
feelings to be unconcerned aboutwhether about whether this one
or another be superior, you willby no means be a spiritual
person, nor will you keep yourvows.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:35):
Yeah.
So yeah, you get like guysaround his age and um Thomas
Aquinas and stuff, but then evengoing all the way back, like the
old, old stuff, like I wassaying earlier with Augustine,
like a lot of time, they'll juststraight call you out on stuff.
They don't they don't reallybeat around the bush, they're
just like, nope, you do this andyou're doing good, you don't do
this, you're not doing so good.

(01:05:56):
Right, right.
Um okay, so can you help us thento understand because you've
been you've been talking a lotabout it in a religious context,
right?
In the context of our faith.
So can you help us understandlike faith and faith and

(01:06:19):
obedience, respect and obediencein that that um kind of context
of our faith?
So it's not just external thingswe show to people, right?
Like a priest or a bishop or tomy boss at work or whatever, um,
and and not just to structuresof authority, but like also the

(01:06:42):
the interior attitudes of trustand humility, right?
How can you help us kind of orhelp me like put all that kind
of stuff together?

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:52):
Yeah, there's again many, many, many, many threads.
Uh I know.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:59):
Write it down, we'll talk about it later.
Or forget to.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:03):
So it goes to the very heart of the spirit of
obedience and what obediencedoes in the human person.
Obedience asks of us to trust agreater design than what we are
capable of understanding.

(01:07:23):
And sometimes you know, we havewe have examples of that in the
early church and throughout thehistory of the church, uh up
until the present day.
In the early church, theJudaizers during the time of
Saint Paul were genuinelyconcerned with the purity of the
faith and genuinely believedthat if you wanted to be saved

(01:07:47):
by Christ, you had to firstembrace Judaism.
They were unwilling toacknowledge the authority of the
apostles on this questionbecause the apostles gave Paul
permission to continue to teachthat they didn't have to become
uh Jews, that they didn't haveto enter embrace Judaism.

(01:08:08):
And so the Judaizers theybelieved themselves to know
better or to have a greaterknowledge of what God's plan was
on this question.
Uh, they were unable to seeGod's hand in the preaching to
and acceptance of the Gentiles.
They were unable to see that Godwas at work in the Council of

(01:08:30):
Jerusalem, just as there havebeen many Catholics who have not
been able to accept theauthority of the various
councils of the church when itbroaches a subject that they are
unwilling to accept.
That is what led to the manyheresies and schismatics in the
early and in the present-daychurch.

(01:08:52):
It can be attributed to severalroot causes.
It can be a lack of catechesis,it can be an emotional or a
sentimental attachment to aparticular thing or way of doing
things.
It can be attributed to a fearof losing control.
It can be even an idolatrousattachment to a particular way

(01:09:16):
of thinking or behaving.
At times it can even beattributed to some magical
thinking, that it is aboutperforming a ritual just so,
which reduces the right into arecipe, which is not what it is
meant to be, and a total lack ofunderstanding of what is
actually occurring in thesacrament or the sacramental.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:39):
Yeah, it's the the whole um that last part, like
where we struggle with theperformat performatism.
I don't know, performativespirituality feeling.
Yeah, like I have to do thisthis way, or else I'm not doing
it right.
Right, right, right.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:55):
Right.
So I remember um as a kid.
Going to church, going to St.
Agnes there in San Antonio.
That's where I was baptized andraised there, St.
Agnes.
And we're going to church,running to church, and so we're,
you know, we don't want to belate, so we're running, and then
so my mom, we get to the we getto the church doors, and oh my

(01:10:18):
god, I forgot my veil.
I can't go in without my veil.
And so then she reaches in, shelooks through her purse and
pulls out a Kleenex and puts aKleenex on her head and ties it,
unfolds it, pulls it, and putsit on her head with a bobby pin.
And I'm there like, What?
It was just very strange to me.
I just understand this, right?

(01:10:39):
But that was the understanding.
You you this is the way it wasdone, right?
And so again, it was sort oflike almost, you know,
idolatrous in the like this isthe way it has to be.
Like, okay, like you know, doesGod God doesn't understand that?
Okay, you're not coming in hereintentionally without your veil,
or does the veil really make youthat much more, that much less,
whatever?
So, anyway.

(01:11:00):
So, and there are people thatare attached to their veils, and
God bless them.
And you know, if you want to useyour veil, use your veil.
It's just uh if that helps youpray or it makes you a better
person.
Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:09):
Um no, and and yeah, and and it just shows how
disordered our attachments theright word is attachments.
Yeah, see, yeah, that's uh howdisordered our attachments are
to these things are good.
So it's like the veil comes fromlike modesty as well, right?
So it's like I have thisdisordered attachment to modesty
that uh you know, I'm I'mmissing the point here, kind of

(01:11:30):
thing.
Yeah, and that's that's a wholenother thing.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:33):
Yeah, that's a whole other cultural thing.
We have to go back into thecultural and what was Paul
really talking about and whatthey understand anyway, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:41):
Yeah.
So okay, so then like we'rewe're saying in the beginning,
and like St.
Teresa said, then obedience,it's more about communion with
God first, conforming ourselvesto his will, yeah, first and
foremost, and then like that.
So, how does that how doesfocusing on obedience to God

(01:12:03):
help us navigate beingrespectful, being obedient to
others, and inform how we shouldact toward people who should be
respectful and obedience to us?
I think like a lot of what youwere saying earlier, um the
common dignity that we all haveas brothers and sisters in
Christ, right?
So, like, how does this allinform us?

(01:12:25):
Starting, it starts at God andthen it goes outward.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:28):
So, one, the position of authority is never
to be used to control, and mostdefinitely never be abused.
I think that's where a lot ofthe problem comes is there has
been abuse uh of authority andhas been used as a control,
right?
The person in a place ofauthority must constantly check

(01:12:49):
themselves and their motives foracting or non-acting.
Yeah, the question is, are theyseeking the common good?
But that can be asked ofourselves as well.
In obedience, am I am I willingto sacrifice my particular
preference for the common good?
Am I willing to do that?
Or am I what do I want thelarger community to sacrifice

(01:13:12):
itself for my preference?
So when it comes to the personin authority, are they afraid of
exercising authority for thewell-being of others or others,
you know, of the other orothers?
And all of us, in all of this,we are approaching these duties

(01:13:33):
prayerfully, or are weapproaching these uh duties as
jobs to be done?
We have to ask ourselveswhether, again, obedience or
being in a position ofauthority, is it a prayerful
approach and understanding ofthis?
Every person, whether a subjector a person in a place of
authority, is limited.

(01:13:53):
And God is attempting to workthrough this vehicle with their
limitations, yet it is throughthis converse with God that the
person, whether subject orsuperior, is stretched in
virtue, at least in the mostoptimal situation, right?
If the person does not approachthis with humility, then what

(01:14:16):
happens is you get caught up inlimitations and preferences, and
then your obedience andorauthority is no longer within
the realm of the divine, butbecomes secular and shallow, and
then becomes a game of who winsand who loses, and that's not
what this is about.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:34):
Yeah, and that man, that that just hits back home to
um I already forgot his name,uh, but the the the guy who's
like you you think so little ofyour brothers, oh my provincial,
yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:45):
Aloysius, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:47):
Like that's exactly what it goes back to.
Like, are you you are you you'regetting caught up in yourself,
right?
Versus approaching this umperipherally and stuff.
Yeah, man, that's good.
That's good.
So I I feel like we we canprobably go on.
We'll go on forever.
Um this is probably this is agood place to stop.

(01:15:07):
So um do you think you could wecould how do we say how do you
think we could leave ourlisteners with something, maybe
some questions for reflection orcontemplation or prayer?

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:22):
When it comes to obedience, I think um, of
course, bring it to prayer.
And of course, if it's obedienceand and if you find yourself
reacting emotionally, that's aflag, a flag to to consider,
right?
Um, and you ask yourself, am Iallowed, am I willing to allow

(01:15:43):
God or the spirit or whoever isstirring up my heart, wherever
that's coming from?
Am I willing to let go ofcontrol?
Is there an issue of controlhere?
Is there an issue of security orinsecurity here?
And can I actually trust God?
Can I have confidence in God insubmitting myself to this

(01:16:06):
obedience?
Um also I would ask, you know,why am I resistant to obedience?
Do I feel it's impinging on somefreedom I believe that I have or
some right that I believe that Ihave?
And is that really true?

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:21):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:22):
And probably the same thing when it comes to like
the respect of a position or anoffice, to why do I feel that
resistance?

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:29):
And these are things to be to pray about and think
about.
And again, I think sometimes alot of it is emotional, and we
have to be able, do we have theobjectivity to go into ourselves
and and really see like, ohyeah, I'm just I'm being
emotional here.
I'm reacting emotionally insteadof logically, or this is
something that I'm afraid ofletting go for whatever reason.

(01:16:51):
And those are the areas that wehave to examine ourselves in,
right?
And if you're a position ofauthority, you have to be always
be careful to ask yourself, am Idoing this for the greater good
for God?
Or is this because this is whatI want, right?
This is my preference, and I'mtrying to I'm trying to impose

(01:17:11):
my preference or my want onpeople instead of really
actually moving that aside andand sacrificing my want, right?
And not allowing my office totempt me into using my office to
impose my want on someone or mypreference on someone.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:30):
Yeah.
And I can I can think of likeanother reflection might be like
when has in my life, when hassaying yes, when that that
consent to respect and obedienceum to either God or another
person in my life, um, when hasit kind of deepened my freedom?
Yes, right, and not diminishedit.

(01:17:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:54):
I think part of it is you know, again, part of it
is have you again, and growth isalways painful.
So it, you know, and it's alsograce.
Yeah, grace is not alwaysbeautiful.
Sometimes grace is painfulbecause it stretches us.
But are you capable of goingback and asking yourself, like,
you know, now that I've beenthrough it, now that I went
through it, now that I'm pastthe difficult part, I actually

(01:18:16):
see that it was somethingpositive, something that helped
me grow, something that helpedme more objective, helped me to
grow into a greater maturity, oror become less uh egotistical or
less self-centered, to be moreconsiderate.
I mean, these are things that wewe should ask ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, well, I'm gonna let let'suh let's wrap this up here
before we go real fast, though,because I'm bad at this and um
trying to grow in this.
I want to just remind all ourlisteners, especially if they um
are appreciating everything, um,that the Carmelites y'all have
set up, or at least in yourprovince, you guys have set up a
way for people to make donationsonline.

(01:18:56):
Um and so uh people can do this.
The the link for it is in theshow notes, and um you can do a
one-time donation donation, youcan do like a recurring monthly
donation.
So if out there, if you can uhplease consider just uh
supporting them financially.
Um and if you're not able to,that's fine.
Support us with prayer.
Please, yeah, please, please,please support us with prayer.

(01:19:18):
Prayer first, finances later.
That's really the the properorder there.
Um, but thank you, Father, forthis, and uh, I love you, and I
will talk to you later.
Bye.