July 5, 2024 • 50 mins
In this episode, John and Mark Gansle ponder the profound distinction between happiness and joy through Mark's experience so far a year into his discernment to become a Catholic deacon. They consider the thought that while happiness is a fleeting emotion, joy is a deep-seated state rooted in following God's will and living in communion with Him. They dive into the spiritual nuances of joy, the suffusion of the Holy Spirit in our lives, and responding to God's call in our lives to live out what we're meant for instead of just doing what we want to do.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the my Friend the Friar podcast and
thanks for listening.
If you like my Friend the Friarand want to support us, please
consider subscribing orfollowing us if you haven't
already done so, and if youfound us on YouTube then, don't
forget to click the notificationbell when you subscribe, so
you'll be notified of newepisodes when they release.
Thanks again and God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Waves and waves of awesomeness.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
We probably just sit here and be weird for a minute.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
So I asked her if she wanted like a head, like a
headset.
She's like no, I hate headsets,I don't want it in my ear and I
don't want it on my ear.
I was like well, do you want abetter mic?
I do want like a one of these,so that when you're on a
conference call, like it'spicking you up rich voice.
She's like everyone's likeyou're on the radio yeah well
(01:06):
she's like no, um, like,honestly, she's doing good.
She, uh, you know we, you knowwe got the kids out right, um,
and we spent like may out ofprison 100 we spent a big part
of may getting them moved intoan apartment um together.
Yeah, so Jillian's graduatedand she's got a job at UT
(01:26):
Southwestern I know, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Well, no, this is the best part.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
She immediately got hooked up with his job at UT
Southwestern and she hadinterned there a couple of times
in the animal lab because afriend of ours yeah, killing the
small animals?
Oh yeah, no you're not supposedto put the, the test mice into
the autoclave yeah, because it'sdangerous for them.
Um so she's.
(01:51):
She's working in that lab.
A friend of ours got her theinternship originally yeah um,
but she got this positionessentially on her own, because
they love her degree program,because her degree program is
molecular biology, yep andgenetics, and um, that's exactly
what this program is at utsouthwestern.
So I mean she's preparing likeagar plates for cultures and
stuff like she's not, you know,she's not splitting the atom yet
(02:16):
yeah, but um, but it's, I meanit's fantastic.
So she needed an apartment, didnot want to.
He did not want to live on thedorm anymore.
Like he wanted a place where,like we're not subsidizing two
profligate lifestyles.
So you've got like y'all, butthey've always gotten along
really well together.
They've always like yeah, beencomplimentary enough, I think,
(02:37):
and really the apartment setupis perfect because it's got the
living room and it's got abedroom on one side and a
bedroom on the other side, solike they can be separated.
Um, but she can take.
She can walk to the train andtake the train into work.
He can drive to campus.
It's only 15 20 minutes away.
Where's?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
he going to college?
Uta, okay, okay, so my niece isgoing to uta next year is she?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
yeah, do you know what her degree program is going
to be?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
not off.
I know what it's related to.
I don't know what it'snecessarily called, but it's an
art program.
Okay, because my younger sisterworks in the video game
industry.
My niece wants to be like AuntJeet and make video games, but
she's always loved art.
She's always loved concept art.
She's always loved all thatkind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
That's cool.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
And so apparently, uta has a good art school.
They've got a good lot ofthings, yeah, and so she got in
um, and so she's starting thisfall I know somebody who's doing
nursing there.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Um, I had a colleague who did, I think, chemistry
there, um grant was attracted tothis place because it had a
good, or it had at least someform of quantum mechanics,
quantum computing andnanotechnologies and all the
other things he was reallyinterested in Nerd Coming from
(03:56):
the guys who like IT stuff.
I know like that's cool yeah,although I mean the most
advanced you got was well, youcould be a physics major, Right?
No, you can't do nanotechnology.
That's for graduate students,buddy.
Man technology is so cool it is,and it's amazing what the
degree programs are now comparedto when we were going to
college.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, yeah, I remember we had this one guy on
our football team.
His name was Charlie RobertsWherever you are in the universe
, man, like I hope you're well,but he was on our football team
and he scored a perfect score onhis SAT and we're like, wow,
wow, you're very smart Young guy, right?
Anyway, he went to college.
Who knows where, came back Oneof my other friends.
(04:39):
We were driving down the streetand we saw him walk in and he
had this big, huge beard,somehow.
Like right out of high school,I guess when you go to fancy
school, you got to grow a beard.
And so he we literally likeu-turned, drove back, pulled
over and got out and was justtalking to him because we're
like, what are you doing?
And all I remember is it hadsomething to do with genetics, I
(05:00):
and that that was that, was it.
But now that's probably likechild's play to a lot of people
nowadays with all theadvancements.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, I remember a few years ago we were doing a
recruiting program at Baylor andthey had and I don't remember
what they called it, but theyhad a degree program, because
there were so many of thesestudents coming through that
were on this degree program.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
That is a combination of big data and genetics yeah,
like that's not scary, right,well, and then you're gonna get
grant doing like nanotechnanobots that are gonna go, or
the the nanobots are made out ofdna or something like that, so
the molecular robots, so they godo whatever you need them to do
(05:42):
yeah it's.
I feel like it's going to be alot more horror movie than it's
going to be marvel movie I maybe wrong yeah, I don't, I don't
know, man, the world is prettycrazy, it is pretty crazy, so
that's good.
Yeah, and sophia wants to dolike sonogram technician kind of
(06:03):
oh, and so there's a program,so the high school she goes to
does things.
What do they call it?
Dallas County promise, orsomething like that.
So basically, if you're in acertain percentile of your class
, then going to the communitycolleges are greatly reduced, or
free, or something like that.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
It's free, yeah, if you're, if you're if you're in
your junior or senior year andyou live in Dallas County, you
get tuition free, dualenrollment at Dallas County
community college district andum all you pay for is your book
fee.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Nice yeah.
So so the to be a sonogramtechnician.
It's a certificate programinstead of like a college degree
certificate program instead oflike a college degree, okay, and
so she can just go do that, andthat's that's what she's
interested.
First she wants to get like umI guess you'd call it your
associates You'd get all yourbasics out of the way for free
and get this certificate.
And then she's thinking aboutlooking at um, uh, university of
(06:58):
Dallas, for I forget the nameof the program, but there are
medical related things just tomake her more competitive.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I guess as an applicant you know in the job,
yeah for sure.
So that's well.
I mean, the first thing grantdid was like get himself hooked
up with a research study programas a um, like a 10 to 15 hour a
week job, and I'm like that'sgonna look great on your resume
for the things that you want todo.
Yeah, um, but yeah I, it's likeI think that one of the best
things about Mike Rowe's show isin this kind of his you know
(07:31):
the things he talks about outthere is there's so much more to
do out there than just thetraditional four-year degree
program.
There's so much more to do thanjust, you know, you go work in
an office and do Excel sheetsthe rest of your life.
My sister went to back when itwas called Del Mar instead of
Texas A&M Corpus Christi.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Oh, did they buy it out?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I went to Del Mar yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Well, hold on.
So there's Texas A&M, corpus,and now, but before that it was
something else, but there'sstill.
Del Mar College was like thecommunity college part.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Oh, that's right, you like the community college part
?
Oh, that's right, you're right.
So, but she got her LVN in twoyears, yeah, or not even two
full years, but licensedvocational nurse, and I mean
she's always been very, verygood at that.
It was right for her.
I love the, but I also thinkthat you've got to be open to
(08:24):
what I think that I want is notwhat's going to happen to me.
It's not what god's planned forme.
I went to school thinking I wasgoing to be a lawyer yeah I had
a guy that I worked with who wasin sales and he um his first
job out of college wasphlebotomist go figure, how do
you sell that?
What, what phlebotomy?
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, he doesn't?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
He was selling other stuff.
Yeah, no, he works for Dr Acula.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
He just wanted to take your blood, so Dr Acula,
yeah, that's funny, but what alovely segue.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Well, the part about being open to what God wants for
you versus what you, what youwant for yourself.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
It's on my mind a lot , yeah, yeah, um has it been
like a year?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
it's.
It's got to have been close toa year since we did the last
podcast.
Um, because I did myinformational session in april
and I had not yet started yeah,I don't think you the program so
I think it's right about a yearnow.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah man, it's wild how fast time goes.
I know it's wild, so the olderyou get, the faster it goes.
I actually read an articleabout that really that there.
There is this theory that I andI don't remember all of it.
This is what I do.
I remember like two lines outof a whole article that I read,
but I think it has to dosomething about the speed at
(09:51):
which your synapses fire,because the faster you go right
like in theory in space as youapproach the speed of light,
time slows down.
So when you're little, yoursynapses fire real fast and so
time seems like it drags on.
You remember being inelementary school and you're
like, oh my gosh, I've been herefor 70 years and it's still
monday, you know yeah and as youget older and your synapses
(10:15):
slow down, time is perceivedfaster, and so it's like
everything is flying by.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
I think that's possible, although
mathematically, like thepercentage of the speed of light
, I'm not sure like howappreciable that is on our
synapse.
I mean, it's, you know, it'snot us, it's the synapses.
But I honestly I always justthought, like it's, you know,
it's intolerable when you don'tlove it.
And you know, most of us, whenwe get older, we love our lives
more and more.
(10:43):
We appreciate what we've got,we're grateful what we've got,
more and more.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
And then it's gone.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
We've built into our lives a lot more of what we want
.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, so what's the difference, do you think,
between doing what you want todo and doing what you're called
to do?
Right, what God wants you to do, your vocation versus this is
this thing I would just want todo, cause.
Is there a fundamentaldifference between the two?
They can absolutely be the samething, but what's the like?
(11:16):
How do you navigate that?
Because that's still gotta besomething you're grappling with
in the diaconate formationprogram, right?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I think it's.
I think it's gotta at least beanalogous to the difference
betweenate formation program.
Right, I think it's.
I think it's got to at least beanalogous to the difference
between happiness and joy.
That, um, I mean, what I wantto do is sleep in and then just
lay on my couch and eat potatochips, um, sometimes, and that's
.
But I also don't right, cause Idon't want to get weak and
(11:45):
fatter, and I think a lot of ithas to come down to being able
to recognize is this lasting joyor is this a short-term
happiness?
Is this gratification?
Is this just you know my body'sreaction, or you know some sort
(12:09):
of addiction in my life orsomething else like that?
I do believe that we findhappiness from the joy we get
when we follow the path that Godset for us.
I do believe that joy isstronger than just the
short-term happiness.
I do believe that joy isstronger than just the
short-term happiness and I dobelieve that, ultimately, you
(12:30):
get rewarded not as like apayment or a bribe, but as the
natural, logical, necessaryconsequence of following the
path that God set for you.
Of course, if you're doing whatyou remain for, it makes sense
that you would be more joyful,that you would be more satisfied
(12:53):
, that things would fit Likewith being married.
You find the person and there'sa fit.
And that fit isn't a bribe or areward, it's not an incentive.
It is just the necessaryconsequence of that's the person
that you're supposed to connectwith, that's the person you're
(13:14):
supposed to be matched to andyou're supposed to make a life
with and bond yourself to andbecome one with how do you
perceive the difference betweenhappiness and joy?
Speaker 1 (13:24):
because, like, we perceive a lot through, through
either our senses or ouremotions.
But how do you, do you thinkjoy is?
I understand kind ofmechanically the logical
conclusion of right, that makessense.
But is it a thought, is it anunderstanding or a realization?
(13:44):
So is joy a mental state?
It an understanding or arealization?
So is?
Is joy a mental state almost,do you think?
or because happiness, you know,is people always attribute it to
a feeling right, I feel happyyeah and because our words are
what they are, people say, Ifeel joyful, but I think they're
(14:04):
just conflating the twotogether.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
I think that they are Um and you were talking on an
earlier episode around um someof this as well, so that's part
of that's going on.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
It's been coming up a bunch lately for some reason.
That's weird.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Um, well, I mean it's it's important Happiness is is
absolutely a weird.
Well, I mean it's important,happiness is absolutely a
feeling.
The problem with our feelingsis that, while they are real,
they're not a real map of theworld.
Just because I truly am saddoesn't necessarily mean that
(14:42):
the world is a sad place.
Just because I feel like I'mbeing attacked, those feelings
are true, I am feeling that way.
It doesn't mean that person'sattacking me.
Joy, on the other hand, I thinkjoy, I think, is real.
I think joy is the suffusion ofGod in our lives, of the Holy
(15:10):
Spirit, of our lives being moreordered, of our lives being in
communion with God and with hisperfect will and with what we
should be doing, what we weremade for and what we're meant
for.
And I think that it itmanifests us in us as a feeling,
(15:32):
because it is a feeling in ourbodies and in our brains and
because we are both spirit andbody, we're going to have
feelings in addition to justthat perfect intellect of the
angels.
But I also think that, becausewe are broken, our feelings can
(15:54):
be misleading and our feelingscan be things that we
misinterpret.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Do you think this is?
I got a Betty question justpopped in my head.
Alright, now I'm thinking thebeatific vision right, you're in
heaven.
You would imagine perfect joy.
Right, because it's thefullness of that cooperation
with God's will, his plan.
You're the fullness of whatyou're supposed to be.
Well, at least at some point.
(16:21):
You may just be still separatedfrom your body, right, but
you're supposed to be.
Well, at least at some point.
You may just be still separatedfrom your body, right, but
you're still.
You're doing what you're meantfor worshiping God before him.
Do you think there's alsoperfect happiness?
Right, that's pure speculation,yeah, who knows, but do you
(16:43):
think you're happy?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
in heaven.
You know I'm always down forthe speculation.
Yeah, or do you?
Speaker 1 (16:47):
think you can be sad for your I don't know your best
friend from high school who wentto hell or something like that.
Right Sad for them, but you'reperfectly joyful.
Or is sadness, or is sadness.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
I think if the only thing you felt was happiness,
including at life's tragediesand about the tragedy of people
who have the opportunity to loveGod and choose not to, I think
that's not perfection.
I think that of course there's.
There can be sorrow in heaven,but I think that sorrow is not
(17:22):
marring, it's not hurting yourperfect joy.
It is the appropriate inunitywith God hopefully a perfect
expression of what you shouldfeel.
I don't think that there's.
I think that what we interpretas happiness is a function of
(17:47):
our body and then us beingbroken and us being really
disconnected from originalholiness and original justice.
And if you think about all ofthe biblical references to
angels and to thetransfiguration and to Christ
after the resurrection, to thetransfiguration and to Christ
after the resurrection, we haveabsolutely no conception of what
it's going to be like after,after the final coming, jesus
(18:12):
was basically teleporting.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
He's shown like a star.
His face did yeah, he didn'thave to look the way that he did
when he was alive.
Like all of those things.
I think that our glorifiedbodies will be so different from
our current bodies that what weknow as happiness and our other
(18:36):
emotions are are very likely tohave been in retrospect, are
very likely to have been inretrospect just pale imitations
of what we're actually meant for.
So it's, it's, it's.
It's really hard to say, hey,well, what does that mean?
Like, can I imagine what thisis going to feel like?
I think the answer is probablynot really, yeah, not not super
(18:59):
well no.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
So after a year of formation, how do you know so
far that the diaconate is whatyou're called to?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Well, when we first talked, I said that one of the
deacons say you're notdiscerning whether you're going
to be a deacon, you'rediscerning what's the next step.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
that God wants you to take.
Oh, that's right, I rememberthat.
I remember that and that'sactually very helpful, because
that's life.
Yeah, it's like this moment.
What is God asking me to do inthis moment?
Not 15 minutes from now, not anhour from now, not days from
now, not years from now.
What does God?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
want from me right now, because that's where you
encounter him right In themoment.
That's right, and we can'timagine where he's taking us.
So if we try to control thatand that control is always going
to be an illusion then we'reprobably keeping ourselves from
really receiving true joy andtrue happiness and growing
(20:08):
closer the way that he wants towith us.
So I don't know that I'm goingto be a deacon.
I do know that I want to takethe next step and the reason I
know that I want to take thenext step is, um, father Edwin
recommended a book called theDiscernment of Spirits, which
(20:31):
was a translation of St Ignatiusof Loyola's first writings.
On that, um, and it wasfantastic.
It was a little bit dense, likemaybe if you're not Catholic
it's not immediately going toresonate, but if you're
interested in that, the firstreading gets to the point where
you're like, okay, this isreally gelling for me, this is
(20:51):
coming into place, and on thesecond reading it's even better.
But he's got 14 rules for thediscernment of spirits and
ultimately he says we're inconsolation or desolation.
We're either moving towards Godor we're moving away from God
and ultimately, with all of hisrules, it's not super
(21:13):
complicated.
Are you feeling closer to God ornot?
Are you moving closer to God ornot?
Are you acting closer to God ornot?
And you moving closer to God ornot?
Are you acting closer to God ornot?
And if you are in desolation,don't make big decisions about
your spiritual life.
And if you are in consolation,that's the time to double down
(21:35):
and move even closer to God andto discern what your next step
is.
And I've felt consolation inevery single thing that I've
done with the diaconate, otherthan super uncomfortable chairs
at St Raphael retreat center.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Father Stephen went out there once.
I remember him talking about itin one of those, one of the
episodes.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Jillian went there, I think, three easters in a row
when she was at the highlandschool really that's they would
do an easter um like for thetriduum.
They would go out and theywould volunteer in the community
and they'd have a nightlyadoration and where is?
It um.
So if you go south on 35, justlike just over the?
Um, just past the mix masterand just over the bridge, um
(22:23):
like right around zhang curve islike you exit and it's back in
that neighborhood there so how,I don't know.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
so like tell me, like how's, how's it been going?
Like what's, what's's, what's?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
the things that have, like, stood out the most to you
, or the things that havechallenged you the most, or I
think the biggest challenge isit has been 30 years since I had
to take notes when I wasreading a book.
I cannot remember the last timethat I sat down and read
something and then said okay,stop, go back, let's start
taking notes, cause we're notgoing to retain all this.
(23:04):
Um, but that's exciting, right,like.
It means that I'm I'm gettingto learn things.
You know some of the stuff youand I have talked about, um,
some of the stuff you and fatherSteven have talked about, right
Like, I'm reading through thesector St Sancto, sancto,
(23:29):
sanctum Concilium, man, that'shard to say.
I want to put an extra n inthere.
Um, I'm reading through thosevatican ii documents and um,
it's just, it's fascinating.
It's fascinating to see allthese things that you and I may
take for granted because ofwhere we're at, but um, maybe
wasn't like it absolutely wasn'ttaken for granted in the 70s or
the 80s, but um, I've, I've hada lot of that chirp feeling
every single time I've beendoing this yeah that, um, and a
(23:54):
big part of that, I mean.
I'm certain you know andremember, there's that feeling
that this is how I'm supposed tobe spending my time yes like
this is a much, much better useof my time than anything else I
could be doing isn't that weirdalmost no, I think it's, I think
it's in it.
(24:15):
We have to.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
How joy yeah, how we normally live our lives, where
I'm bored or there's.
I'm looking forward to thisthing.
But I've noticed, right,because it's the same thing when
you're, when you're at a trip,retreat or something like that,
when you're caught up or likethis, talking about God and
sharing your experiences.
To me at least, there is thissensation, this fulfillment,
(24:38):
this maybe it's joy, right?
This, this is the mostsatisfying thing I can think of
doing now that I've experiencedit.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
And I mean there's lots of great things to do out
there.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
There are.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
But I almost feel it's like the they go up the
mountain for the transfiguration.
Peter's like, let's just stayhere.
Jesus is like no, no, no, no,we gotta go right.
This is where no, no, no, no,we got to go right.
This is where I don't knownothing compares to it.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
It doesn't and it's and you're right like there's so
many other things.
I mean I'm definitely going toPaso Livre Solo after this and
picking up more than bananas,like I'm not coming all the way
out here and not getting some ofthat.
But there's the opportunitythere's.
There was the.
So the first semester is reallyvery, very passive and um, and
(25:31):
what I mean by that is not just,like kenny, you're being
lectured to, but you're beinglectured to with no expectation
back at all.
The second semester you'rebeing lectured to a lot more,
but a lot more of it is kind ofacademic and there is an
expectation that you're going tobe able to to grow and to to be
able to do something like thereis a return that you're meant
to give.
(25:52):
Next semester will be even muchmore like that.
You know, in the second yearassuming they sign off on my
application aspirancy- which iswe're in the middle of right now
.
Yeah, they sign off on myapplication aspirancy, which is
we're in the middle of right now.
Yeah, um, so there were a lotof sessions around things like
this is what it's like to be adeacon, and some of the aspects
(26:12):
of that.
Um, we had someone who lost hiswife in the Akinna formation.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
And um, and you take a vow of chastity, which means
you maintain your, you maintainsexual continence.
So if you're married, that'sgroovy, but if you're widowed,
like you're done Now, you'recelibate.
Um, we heard about prisonministry and hospital ministry
(26:45):
and challenges and just some ofthe things that can make it hard
for people.
I actually read a book by awoman whose husband had been
ordained a deacon immediatelyafter Vatican II and after the
reinstitution of the permanentdiaconate and like her story was
(27:09):
, this was not easy.
Like we had to make adjustments.
We had I had to remind him thathe can't go spend 36 hours a
day being a deacon.
Like there's, he's gotresponsibilities at home, so
there's there's balances youhave to strike, but, um, but we
heard a lot about those and wehad some mock classes, like
here's what a lecture would looklike from some of the people
(27:31):
who are going to be lecturing usat university of Dallas.
Um, and they made sure uh, theymake sure that fellowship is a
part of what we're doing.
So there's always mealtimetogether and there's always
there's there's small cohorts ofthe deacons and their wives who
(27:53):
get together outside of theweekend where we're going to St
Raphael, yeah, and so, and Imean you know exactly what that
feels like because you've doneSherpa a number of times, and so
it's the same sort ofexperience of growing an
intimacy to others, to otherpeople that you know at least
(28:14):
share this basic love of God,which is important because so
many of the people that we meetin life we may not have anything
in common with them or we maybe very much at odds in some of
the most fundamental things.
So that part is really reallyjoyful.
It's really fantastic to beable to spend time with men and
(28:37):
women who you know love Christ,who you know are interested in
serving in their communities,who are active in the church,
and just hearing about theirchallenges too.
Almost every single one of themhas got kid challenges right.
It's either I've got kids thatstill live in the house that are
18 and less, and I've got kidchallenges A lot of times.
(28:59):
I've got kids who are like backin the house and they're over
18 and I've got kid challenges,but we're not alone.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Is there a minimum deacon age, assuming you're not
transitional deacon towards thepriesthood?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
There is a minimum and maximum and I think a year
ago I probably had that writtendown.
I don't know that I still havethat written down.
I think it's like 35 to 65 orsomething like that there is a
that.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, there is a range.
Yeah, I feel if you're, if youwere interested in the permanent
diaconate, you probably need acertain amount of life under you
before you can make that kindof choice.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Well, yeah, I mean, and if you even think about,
actually, the apostles, likethey wanted men who had been
seasoned and were respected inthe community and proven to be
stable, um, like, those are allattributes and they continue to
be attributes today.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
If you look in the basic norms, um for the
permanent deck, in it like itreferences those verses in acts
and says like this is thiscontinues today to be an
essential element of what itmeans to be a deacon, because
you're serving in personachristy survey, you're serving
in the person of christ, theservant.
Um, that's not.
(30:14):
That's a lot of what they'rediscerning of us during this is
is this a matter of ego?
Is it a matter of um?
You know some sort ofpsychological impediment that
you've got, that you know you'relooking for some satisfaction
somehow, yeah.
Like you're looking to fill avoid that needs to be filled um
correctly.
(30:34):
So I mean they're looking anddiscerning that Um.
So we've done.
You know we've done the classes, but we also had um.
It was a multi-step applicationprocess.
So the application it coveredso many different things and I'm
(30:55):
trying to remember if I gaveyou that in the show prep, but
the application occurs in thesecond semester for the next
step, for aspirancy, and thenthat's a two-year process and
then you're still applyinganother time for candidacy.
(31:17):
And so they took a credit check.
They want a recent version ofmy um, my resume.
They had college transcripts.
They want a college transcripts.
Yeah, they want to collegetranscripts.
They want.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
They want a picture of you and your wife Right All
sorts of and and that's a reallyinteresting.
I keep thinking.
I really want to talk to Robintoo.
And I have her because it isabsolutely necessary, it's
fundamentally necessary for herto be a part of this process.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
And that's very interesting.
And she and the wives haveindependent veto yep, like if
she says no, the answer is no sothere's so there's so much
learning going on and somethingthat always interests me and
maybe this is something a pointof interest in my life right now
, because sophia is the ageshe's at but there is a
(32:08):
difference between I'm gonna putthis, I'm gonna cache this
stuff in my short-term memory soI can regurgitate it on a test
or something and move forwardright, and then integrating what
you learn into your life that'sright, so that integration is
fascinating to me, and because Ithink that those are those
(32:31):
moments, it's like going to RCIA, right?
You learn, you learn, you learn,you learn, you learn.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Have you ever been a part of the RCIA program?
Robin attended.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
RCIA.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Okay, because she was not raised Catholic, she wasn't
confirmed, but I wasn't hersponsor and I will be.
That's one of the firstpastoral assignments you get as
a deacon in formation is you'regoing to go spend a year at a
church not your own and you'regoing to participate in the RCIA
(33:04):
program.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah, and so you learn, learn, learn, learn,
learn.
Participate in the rca rcaprogram?
Yeah, and so there's.
So you learn, learn, learn,learn, learn.
But if you're not integratingwhat you're learning into your
life which to me, I I understand, is as where it moves from your
head to your heart, you know,um, like that's the important
moment.
And what's interesting to me,too, is that integration never
(33:30):
seems to be very clean.
In my own life, father Stevenstold me things that years later
the light bulb finally turns on.
Oh yeah, I get it now, insteadof in the moment when somebody's
teaching it to you.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Right and in RCIA you're moving forward right.
So at some point in time youmake this declaration and you
may still not have many of thecomponents of our faith and all
that.
It still may not be fullyintegrated, but you know you
want to move forward.
I don't think you're quite inthe same boat in the diaconate
but you do need to.
(34:07):
There's a part, do that yeah,yeah, you do need to integrate
everything that you're learningand I guess that's the
difference between just readingthe book and annotating the book
as you're, as you're reading itright well.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
So, um, I worked at a company where they had a
training um program where theytalked about 10, 20, 70 and
basically they said thateducation is 10 or learning is
10.
Education like that, thatpassive reception of information
, it's 20 exposure, seeing how,what that actually means in real
(34:38):
life, but it's 70 experience,and so, um, one of the beautiful
things about saying aboutfather steven is that he's so
good at explaining not just thewhat but the why.
Like this is this is how it's alogical necessity, this is how
it makes sense within thebroader context, which I think
is a really good help tounderstand it so that you can
(34:59):
integrate it.
It's a better.
It's not just throwing theseeds on the ground, it's
planting them and watering them.
But ultimately, withoutexperience, we're not angels, so
we're not going to perfectlyunderstand it right, like we
have to, because we're corporeal.
We do have to, I think,experience that in a lot of ways
to really truly be able tointegrate it into our lives, um,
(35:21):
and to be able to have, I thinkwe're, in part, we're making
mental connections or or evensometimes emotional connections
between one experience andanother, which means that we're
also, um, like that's, that'ssupporting our, our mental
assessment of of that knowledgeand our intellectual assessment
of that knowledge and ourspiritual assessment of that
(35:42):
knowledge.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, so how's, how has the integration been for you
so far?
That's, that's almost a weirdway to say it, because how's
your assimilation been well?
Speaker 2 (35:52):
we are bored, yeah, um the resistance is futile it
certainly is the um nerds fathersteven will be so happy, I know
that's exactly what I wasthinking.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Oh, by the way, like a year ago, probably even more,
Father Stephen made some kind ofBabylon 5 reference.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah, yeah, I remember that Was that when you
were here.
It was on an episode rightbefore we recorded, and then he
made the same sorts ofreferences during ours.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I literally finished it this week,
finally, finally finished.
It's like seven seasons.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
It's a long.
It's a lot of episodes.
Yeah it was good Side note orside tangent, right.
The last season was kind of meh.
I see what they were doing, butit felt to me as though they
were trying to find a way towrap things up.
They probably had studiopressure like this has gone on
(36:52):
long enough.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Tie off all the loose ends and kind of move forward.
But they did it all right.
I think the best part of theseries is there is a lot of
things going on that are neverexpressly.
There's this underlying tone,that stuff is happening that
you're not privy to.
And then, because everythingtakes place on the space station
(37:16):
, for the most part right, andso you'll get these little bits
of pieces of things, and so theythey do a good job of weaving
these threads continuouslythrough so you might have an
episode about so you learn itlike a character would learn it
yeah, so yeah, yeah, there'slike an episode where somebody
is hyper focused in this oneevent that's going on, but in
the background, because thatthread is woven through all the
(37:36):
episodes.
You see the movement of all thebig things going on in the
background.
So it's well done.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
It's well done I mean , ultimately, is the way our
lives really are that, um know,we kind of know the end of the
story if we're reading the Bible, but when it comes to our lives
, we're no smarter than anybodyin the Bible was about.
We learn it as it happens to ussometimes instead of seeing the
bigger picture.
The integration part is, Ithink it requires patience.
(38:06):
So one of the things that wehave to do as a part of um
application to candidacy oraspirancy is go see a counselor.
So we saw this woman, berniceSimmons, and um spent about two
and a half hours with her umafter taking like we had like a
250 question assessment.
So it was like a.
It was a.
(38:26):
It was a marriage instrumentthat they use for um pre-cana
counseling and for people whoare maybe having issues in their
lives and maybe in even inmarriage encounter um to
identify, you know, where do youalign together and where do you
have differences together orwhere do you have the kind of
alignment that could be negativeLike.
I really wish John wasn't sostubborn you know, if, like and
(38:47):
you said, I wish, really wishBetty wasn't so stubborn Like
y'all, both strongly agree tothat.
That's not a good thing.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Um.
So one of the things that wetalked about was extroverted um
thinkers versus introvertedthinkers, and it's not the same
thing as extroverts andintroverts.
That's like.
That's an emotional thing.
It's some people processexternally and they speak about
as they're thinking, and somepeople need silence and quiet
and they process internally andshe was kind of talking us
through that and drawing thispicture of Mark.
(39:15):
You're an introverted thinkerand you tend to process
internally.
The problem is that you don'treally give anything back.
So like on your thing, yourside of your brain, like you're
half, like you're full there,and then you're full on your
side, on your Robin side,because Robin's telling you the
things that she thinks, butshe's completely empty because
you're not giving it back.
(39:35):
So like you've got to becareful that you don't leave her
hanging and she's got to becareful that she doesn't
overwhelm you with her thoughtsand gives you time to process,
and like that's a really amazinginsight for us.
After 23 years of marriage,we're still going to integrate
that right.
Like we still got to figure outall right.
(39:56):
So how do I build habits to tobe more verbal than I would
naturally be how do I, how doesshe recognize or how do I even
signal to her in a loving waythat, um, you know?
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Hey, I need a minute, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Um.
So I think the integration partis.
The integration part is is anopportunity to practice patience
, um, and pray for help and totrust in God.
But, um, but I know that thepastoral elements of formation
are a big part of thatintegration.
If you think about the ways inwhich you have served in your
(40:29):
life, you've probably learnedmore, so much more, about your
faith in that pastoral care ofothers, in your love for your
wife and your daughter thananything else in your life, than
any amount of reading.
So I truly believe that 10, 20,70 rule, like I truly believe
(40:50):
it's not.
Until we actually go experiencewhat the Bible's telling us,
what our priests are telling us,what our friends are telling us
in the care of others, in theexercise of corporal and
spiritual acts of mercy, I don'tthink you integrate any of your
faith and that's one of thereasons, like more and more.
(41:13):
That's why I said when we firsttalked that everybody should go
through diaconate formation,like everybody should kind of
experience the same things.
I truly believe that the thingsthat they're having us do that
I'm blessed to have somebodykind of help me with we all need
to do Like.
We all need to pray more.
We all need to pray with thePsalms and the scriptures more.
(41:36):
We all need to serve others.
Serve the poor, serve the youknow, serve the sick, serve
those in prison.
God, and you know thisintellectually, god never, ever,
ever told us anything, becausehe was, was just a tough guy.
Every single thing he told usto do was out of love for us.
He was giving us the perfectrecipes for success.
(41:58):
Every time he told us don'tkill, don't lust after your
neighbor's wife, feed the poorand the hungry.
None of that's for our I meanhungry.
None of that's for our I mean100% of that's for our benefit.
Prayer is not for God's benefit, it's for our benefit.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Yeah, it changes you, not him.
That's so interesting, thinkingof the process that you're
going through and, as you said,after 20 some odd years of of
marriage, you're like what youknow?
Learn something new?
Um, it is.
(42:35):
It is so.
Communication is so hard andnegotiation, negotiating
relationships or justinteractions with people around
you is so hard.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
It is.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
And it's hard with your spouse, it's hard with your
kids, it's hard with yourneighbor, it's hard with your
boss, it's hard with people whoreport to you.
Right, it's all hard.
Yeah, I wonder if there's somekind of opportunity there to
(43:12):
bring some of this to peoplelike the laity at a parish.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
You mean to take kind of like the best parts of
formation.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Well, I think, in some ways, depending on the
nature of your parish and thesize of it, parishes are, and
they're trying to do it all thetime.
Our parish, I mean, you knowhow big St Anne is.
You know how much real estateit covers, it's almost
impossible to book a room if youdon't plan a number of months
in advance.
(43:43):
Yeah, because ministries thereStephen ministry and CH and
chirp and mom's ministry andmarriage encounter Like there's
so many ministries going onwhere people are working to to
serve each other.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Um marriage encounter and the Holy spirit, um the
encounter sessions, that there'salpha, there's so much going on
.
Um, I think that, um, for somereason, for many reasons, we
tend to avoid those.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
I was just thinking that there's so much, how hard
is it to get you to do the thinglike that you're supposed to go
do?
How many people?
Speaker 2 (44:21):
the first time they were in chirp said like people
have been asking me to do thisfor 22 years and I finally did
it.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Yeah, my wife's been on me for seven years.
Yeah, yeah, like all of them.
Yeah, my wife's been on me forseven years.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Yeah, like all of them.
Yeah, and it kind of goes backto what we were talking about
earlier, like this once wechoose to do it, once we
experience it, we realize thisis the best thing People tend to
look at, and especially peoplewho aren't Christian or Catholic
.
They tend to look at the peoplewho are, like, involved in
(44:51):
Bible studies and saying, man,y'all are crazy.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
You're in a cult, why would you spend your time that
way?
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
And you're only saying that because you've never
tried it Like they're in thatbecause they realized this is
such a blessing in their livesthat it's the best thing that
they can be doing with theirtime.
And I think that we do have,like at St Ann, we've got
Stephen Ministry for those whoare bereaved.
We've got people who areactually licensed well, not
licensed, but certifiedspiritual advisors, like just
(45:22):
lay people who are doing thatstuff.
So I think there's so manyopportunities and we have an
intellectual and or spirituallack of curiosity to pursue
those things sometimes.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Yeah, because we're comfortable and we're broken.
Yeah, I was going to sayconsequence of the broken world
and this reminds me of what Iwas saying just the other week
with my friend Anthony is andthis is so weird.
Again, it's something that Irecognize in myself and it's
going to take who knows.
(45:54):
Only God knows how long for meto integrate into my brain fully
.
Excuse me is my default statusis oh, somebody should do
something about that, wheninstead I should be realizing
that the best opportunity forfor the best parts of formation
(46:18):
to affect the people in the ofthe world is to integrate them
into myself.
And then go be a good neighbor,right the community.
Go form relationships withpeople and, through your
relationship, evangelize themand help them to integrate these
things into their life, notbecause you're you're preaching
(46:39):
or teaching to them, but throughyour example, because we're all
drawn to people like that.
Right, there's this natural wow, that that guy's really great,
you know.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
And well, success begets success.
Everybody wants to be a part ofa winning team.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Right, it's like the Apple TV show what's it called?
With the soccer coach.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Is it Ted's?
Speaker 2 (47:02):
No, ted Lasso, yeah, yeah yeah, like people want to
be a part of a winning team, andI think that we ask, we think
somebody should do somethingabout that, instead of asking
what can I do about that?
And I mean, there's somethingeverybody can do about that,
even if it's just praying onthat, praying for God's
intercession, praying for theintercession of the saints for
(47:26):
that person.
You know, in our and if you, ifyou pray the um, the divine
office, at least once everycouple weeks, there's a prayer
for um our leaders in officethat they may love the world
more fully and that they maylove more than just their own
nation and they may see um thepeace and the good of all the
world.
And um is that suddenly goingto make our politicians saints?
(47:51):
I don't think so, uh, but Istill believe it's efficacious,
I still think that it doessomething yeah and um and like
you're right, like we're all ofit.
we live in a busy world andespecially if you know any of us
that have kids or have jobs orany of the other things like all
of us feel overwhelmed all thetime, so nobody really wants to
(48:11):
adopt something new.
I think it's not about adoptingsomething new.
It's about upgrading the thingsin your life.
Why not read scripture 30minutes a day instead of playing
Angry Birds?
Like you're not adding it toyour life.
You're upgrading the thingthat's in your life that isn't
(48:32):
really giving you joy.
It's just giving you distraction.
Well, you can turn away fromthe things that you're not
enjoying in your life, your workor your pressures, and turn to
something even more fulfilling,even more joyful, even more
everything that you've actuallybeen looking for, even more
suited to fill that hole in yourlife.
Yeah, and it ultimately is.
(48:54):
I think the more that we go dothose things, the more that it
changes us.
But it's kind of like you knowpeople who eliminate sugar from
their diet and it changes theirtastes Suddenly.
Everything else they've beeneating tastes better and they
just hate the taste of reallyheavy sugary things.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
Yeah, or you eat something a piece of fruit and
you're blown away by how sweetit is.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
now, this is sugar bomb.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
What is this?
A donut.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
If only if they grew on trees.
So I just saw how long we'vebeen recording and I also
realized that I never did thewhole.
Welcome to the podcast thing.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
You're going to layer that in post-production right.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
I don't know.
We'll fix it post-production,but let's do this, let's go
ahead and let's end this one andthen next time, here in five
minutes, we'll keep going.
I want to know more about howintegrating what you've been
experiencing in your life hasaffected your marriage, your
(49:51):
role as a dad, all those kindsof things.
Okay, and just see how thingsare going.
Yeah.
So, mark, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
It's always a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Thanks for listening.
We'll see you next time.
Welcome to the my Friend the Friar podcast and
thanks for listening.
If you like my Friend the Friarand want to support us, please
consider subscribing orfollowing us if you haven't
already done so, and if youfound us on YouTube then, don't
forget to click the notificationbell when you subscribe, so
you'll be notified of newepisodes when they release.
Thanks again and God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Waves and waves of awesomeness.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
We probably just sit here and be weird for a minute.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
So I asked her if she wanted like a head, like a
headset.
She's like no, I hate headsets,I don't want it in my ear and I
don't want it on my ear.
I was like well, do you want abetter mic?
I do want like a one of these,so that when you're on a
conference call, like it'spicking you up rich voice.
She's like everyone's likeyou're on the radio yeah well
(01:06):
she's like no, um, like,honestly, she's doing good.
She, uh, you know we, you knowwe got the kids out right, um,
and we spent like may out ofprison 100 we spent a big part
of may getting them moved intoan apartment um together.
Yeah, so Jillian's graduatedand she's got a job at UT
(01:26):
Southwestern I know, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Well, no, this is the best part.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
She immediately got hooked up with his job at UT
Southwestern and she hadinterned there a couple of times
in the animal lab because afriend of ours yeah, killing the
small animals?
Oh yeah, no you're not supposedto put the, the test mice into
the autoclave yeah, because it'sdangerous for them.
Um so she's.
(01:51):
She's working in that lab.
A friend of ours got her theinternship originally yeah um,
but she got this positionessentially on her own, because
they love her degree program,because her degree program is
molecular biology, yep andgenetics, and um, that's exactly
what this program is at utsouthwestern.
So I mean she's preparing likeagar plates for cultures and
stuff like she's not, you know,she's not splitting the atom yet
(02:16):
yeah, but um, but it's, I meanit's fantastic.
So she needed an apartment, didnot want to.
He did not want to live on thedorm anymore.
Like he wanted a place where,like we're not subsidizing two
profligate lifestyles.
So you've got like y'all, butthey've always gotten along
really well together.
They've always like yeah, beencomplimentary enough, I think,
(02:37):
and really the apartment setupis perfect because it's got the
living room and it's got abedroom on one side and a
bedroom on the other side, solike they can be separated.
Um, but she can take.
She can walk to the train andtake the train into work.
He can drive to campus.
It's only 15 20 minutes away.
Where's?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
he going to college?
Uta, okay, okay, so my niece isgoing to uta next year is she?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
yeah, do you know what her degree program is going
to be?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
not off.
I know what it's related to.
I don't know what it'snecessarily called, but it's an
art program.
Okay, because my younger sisterworks in the video game
industry.
My niece wants to be like AuntJeet and make video games, but
she's always loved art.
She's always loved concept art.
She's always loved all thatkind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
That's cool.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
And so apparently, uta has a good art school.
They've got a good lot ofthings, yeah, and so she got in
um, and so she's starting thisfall I know somebody who's doing
nursing there.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Um, I had a colleague who did, I think, chemistry
there, um grant was attracted tothis place because it had a
good, or it had at least someform of quantum mechanics,
quantum computing andnanotechnologies and all the
other things he was reallyinterested in Nerd Coming from
(03:56):
the guys who like IT stuff.
I know like that's cool yeah,although I mean the most
advanced you got was well, youcould be a physics major, Right?
No, you can't do nanotechnology.
That's for graduate students,buddy.
Man technology is so cool it is,and it's amazing what the
degree programs are now comparedto when we were going to
college.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, yeah, I remember we had this one guy on
our football team.
His name was Charlie RobertsWherever you are in the universe
, man, like I hope you're well,but he was on our football team
and he scored a perfect score onhis SAT and we're like, wow,
wow, you're very smart Young guy, right?
Anyway, he went to college.
Who knows where, came back Oneof my other friends.
(04:39):
We were driving down the streetand we saw him walk in and he
had this big, huge beard,somehow.
Like right out of high school,I guess when you go to fancy
school, you got to grow a beard.
And so he we literally likeu-turned, drove back, pulled
over and got out and was justtalking to him because we're
like, what are you doing?
And all I remember is it hadsomething to do with genetics, I
(05:00):
and that that was that, was it.
But now that's probably likechild's play to a lot of people
nowadays with all theadvancements.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, I remember a few years ago we were doing a
recruiting program at Baylor andthey had and I don't remember
what they called it, but theyhad a degree program, because
there were so many of thesestudents coming through that
were on this degree program.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
That is a combination of big data and genetics yeah,
like that's not scary, right,well, and then you're gonna get
grant doing like nanotechnanobots that are gonna go, or
the the nanobots are made out ofdna or something like that, so
the molecular robots, so they godo whatever you need them to do
(05:42):
yeah it's.
I feel like it's going to be alot more horror movie than it's
going to be marvel movie I maybe wrong yeah, I don't, I don't
know, man, the world is prettycrazy, it is pretty crazy, so
that's good.
Yeah, and sophia wants to dolike sonogram technician kind of
(06:03):
oh, and so there's a program,so the high school she goes to
does things.
What do they call it?
Dallas County promise, orsomething like that.
So basically, if you're in acertain percentile of your class
, then going to the communitycolleges are greatly reduced, or
free, or something like that.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
It's free, yeah, if you're, if you're if you're in
your junior or senior year andyou live in Dallas County, you
get tuition free, dualenrollment at Dallas County
community college district andum all you pay for is your book
fee.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Nice yeah.
So so the to be a sonogramtechnician.
It's a certificate programinstead of like a college degree
certificate program instead oflike a college degree, okay, and
so she can just go do that, andthat's that's what she's
interested.
First she wants to get like umI guess you'd call it your
associates You'd get all yourbasics out of the way for free
and get this certificate.
And then she's thinking aboutlooking at um, uh, university of
(06:58):
Dallas, for I forget the nameof the program, but there are
medical related things just tomake her more competitive.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I guess as an applicant you know in the job,
yeah for sure.
So that's well.
I mean, the first thing grantdid was like get himself hooked
up with a research study programas a um, like a 10 to 15 hour a
week job, and I'm like that'sgonna look great on your resume
for the things that you want todo.
Yeah, um, but yeah I, it's likeI think that one of the best
things about Mike Rowe's show isin this kind of his you know
(07:31):
the things he talks about outthere is there's so much more to
do out there than just thetraditional four-year degree
program.
There's so much more to do thanjust, you know, you go work in
an office and do Excel sheetsthe rest of your life.
My sister went to back when itwas called Del Mar instead of
Texas A&M Corpus Christi.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Oh, did they buy it out?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I went to Del Mar yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Well, hold on.
So there's Texas A&M, corpus,and now, but before that it was
something else, but there'sstill.
Del Mar College was like thecommunity college part.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Oh, that's right, you like the community college part
?
Oh, that's right, you're right.
So, but she got her LVN in twoyears, yeah, or not even two
full years, but licensedvocational nurse, and I mean
she's always been very, verygood at that.
It was right for her.
I love the, but I also thinkthat you've got to be open to
(08:24):
what I think that I want is notwhat's going to happen to me.
It's not what god's planned forme.
I went to school thinking I wasgoing to be a lawyer yeah I had
a guy that I worked with who wasin sales and he um his first
job out of college wasphlebotomist go figure, how do
you sell that?
What, what phlebotomy?
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, he doesn't?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
He was selling other stuff.
Yeah, no, he works for Dr Acula.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
He just wanted to take your blood, so Dr Acula,
yeah, that's funny, but what alovely segue.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Well, the part about being open to what God wants for
you versus what you, what youwant for yourself.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
It's on my mind a lot , yeah, yeah, um has it been
like a year?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
it's.
It's got to have been close toa year since we did the last
podcast.
Um, because I did myinformational session in april
and I had not yet started yeah,I don't think you the program so
I think it's right about a yearnow.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah man, it's wild how fast time goes.
I know it's wild, so the olderyou get, the faster it goes.
I actually read an articleabout that really that there.
There is this theory that I andI don't remember all of it.
This is what I do.
I remember like two lines outof a whole article that I read,
but I think it has to dosomething about the speed at
(09:51):
which your synapses fire,because the faster you go right
like in theory in space as youapproach the speed of light,
time slows down.
So when you're little, yoursynapses fire real fast and so
time seems like it drags on.
You remember being inelementary school and you're
like, oh my gosh, I've been herefor 70 years and it's still
monday, you know yeah and as youget older and your synapses
(10:15):
slow down, time is perceivedfaster, and so it's like
everything is flying by.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
I think that's possible, although
mathematically, like thepercentage of the speed of light
, I'm not sure like howappreciable that is on our
synapse.
I mean, it's, you know, it'snot us, it's the synapses.
But I honestly I always justthought, like it's, you know,
it's intolerable when you don'tlove it.
And you know, most of us, whenwe get older, we love our lives
more and more.
(10:43):
We appreciate what we've got,we're grateful what we've got,
more and more.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
And then it's gone.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
We've built into our lives a lot more of what we want
.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, so what's the difference, do you think,
between doing what you want todo and doing what you're called
to do?
Right, what God wants you to do, your vocation versus this is
this thing I would just want todo, cause.
Is there a fundamentaldifference between the two?
They can absolutely be the samething, but what's the like?
(11:16):
How do you navigate that?
Because that's still gotta besomething you're grappling with
in the diaconate formationprogram, right?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I think it's.
I think it's gotta at least beanalogous to the difference
betweenate formation program.
Right, I think it's.
I think it's got to at least beanalogous to the difference
between happiness and joy.
That, um, I mean, what I wantto do is sleep in and then just
lay on my couch and eat potatochips, um, sometimes, and that's
.
But I also don't right, cause Idon't want to get weak and
(11:45):
fatter, and I think a lot of ithas to come down to being able
to recognize is this lasting joyor is this a short-term
happiness?
Is this gratification?
Is this just you know my body'sreaction, or you know some sort
(12:09):
of addiction in my life orsomething else like that?
I do believe that we findhappiness from the joy we get
when we follow the path that Godset for us.
I do believe that joy isstronger than just the
short-term happiness.
I do believe that joy isstronger than just the
short-term happiness and I dobelieve that, ultimately, you
(12:30):
get rewarded not as like apayment or a bribe, but as the
natural, logical, necessaryconsequence of following the
path that God set for you.
Of course, if you're doing whatyou remain for, it makes sense
that you would be more joyful,that you would be more satisfied
(12:53):
, that things would fit Likewith being married.
You find the person and there'sa fit.
And that fit isn't a bribe or areward, it's not an incentive.
It is just the necessaryconsequence of that's the person
that you're supposed to connectwith, that's the person you're
(13:14):
supposed to be matched to andyou're supposed to make a life
with and bond yourself to andbecome one with how do you
perceive the difference betweenhappiness and joy?
Speaker 1 (13:24):
because, like, we perceive a lot through, through
either our senses or ouremotions.
But how do you, do you thinkjoy is?
I understand kind ofmechanically the logical
conclusion of right, that makessense.
But is it a thought, is it anunderstanding or a realization?
(13:44):
So is joy a mental state?
It an understanding or arealization?
So is?
Is joy a mental state almost,do you think?
or because happiness, you know,is people always attribute it to
a feeling right, I feel happyyeah and because our words are
what they are, people say, Ifeel joyful, but I think they're
(14:04):
just conflating the twotogether.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
I think that they are Um and you were talking on an
earlier episode around um someof this as well, so that's part
of that's going on.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
It's been coming up a bunch lately for some reason.
That's weird.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Um, well, I mean it's it's important Happiness is is
absolutely a weird.
Well, I mean it's important,happiness is absolutely a
feeling.
The problem with our feelingsis that, while they are real,
they're not a real map of theworld.
Just because I truly am saddoesn't necessarily mean that
(14:42):
the world is a sad place.
Just because I feel like I'mbeing attacked, those feelings
are true, I am feeling that way.
It doesn't mean that person'sattacking me.
Joy, on the other hand, I thinkjoy, I think, is real.
I think joy is the suffusion ofGod in our lives, of the Holy
(15:10):
Spirit, of our lives being moreordered, of our lives being in
communion with God and with hisperfect will and with what we
should be doing, what we weremade for and what we're meant
for.
And I think that it itmanifests us in us as a feeling,
(15:32):
because it is a feeling in ourbodies and in our brains and
because we are both spirit andbody, we're going to have
feelings in addition to justthat perfect intellect of the
angels.
But I also think that, becausewe are broken, our feelings can
(15:54):
be misleading and our feelingscan be things that we
misinterpret.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Do you think this is?
I got a Betty question justpopped in my head.
Alright, now I'm thinking thebeatific vision right, you're in
heaven.
You would imagine perfect joy.
Right, because it's thefullness of that cooperation
with God's will, his plan.
You're the fullness of whatyou're supposed to be.
Well, at least at some point.
(16:21):
You may just be still separatedfrom your body, right, but
you're supposed to be.
Well, at least at some point.
You may just be still separatedfrom your body, right, but
you're still.
You're doing what you're meantfor worshiping God before him.
Do you think there's alsoperfect happiness?
Right, that's pure speculation,yeah, who knows, but do you
(16:43):
think you're happy?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
in heaven.
You know I'm always down forthe speculation.
Yeah, or do you?
Speaker 1 (16:47):
think you can be sad for your I don't know your best
friend from high school who wentto hell or something like that.
Right Sad for them, but you'reperfectly joyful.
Or is sadness, or is sadness.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
I think if the only thing you felt was happiness,
including at life's tragediesand about the tragedy of people
who have the opportunity to loveGod and choose not to, I think
that's not perfection.
I think that of course there's.
There can be sorrow in heaven,but I think that sorrow is not
(17:22):
marring, it's not hurting yourperfect joy.
It is the appropriate inunitywith God hopefully a perfect
expression of what you shouldfeel.
I don't think that there's.
I think that what we interpretas happiness is a function of
(17:47):
our body and then us beingbroken and us being really
disconnected from originalholiness and original justice.
And if you think about all ofthe biblical references to
angels and to thetransfiguration and to Christ
after the resurrection, to thetransfiguration and to Christ
after the resurrection, we haveabsolutely no conception of what
it's going to be like after,after the final coming, jesus
(18:12):
was basically teleporting.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
He's shown like a star.
His face did yeah, he didn'thave to look the way that he did
when he was alive.
Like all of those things.
I think that our glorifiedbodies will be so different from
our current bodies that what weknow as happiness and our other
(18:36):
emotions are are very likely tohave been in retrospect, are
very likely to have been inretrospect just pale imitations
of what we're actually meant for.
So it's, it's, it's.
It's really hard to say, hey,well, what does that mean?
Like, can I imagine what thisis going to feel like?
I think the answer is probablynot really, yeah, not not super
(18:59):
well no.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
So after a year of formation, how do you know so
far that the diaconate is whatyou're called to?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Well, when we first talked, I said that one of the
deacons say you're notdiscerning whether you're going
to be a deacon, you'rediscerning what's the next step.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
that God wants you to take.
Oh, that's right, I rememberthat.
I remember that and that'sactually very helpful, because
that's life.
Yeah, it's like this moment.
What is God asking me to do inthis moment?
Not 15 minutes from now, not anhour from now, not days from
now, not years from now.
What does God?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
want from me right now, because that's where you
encounter him right In themoment.
That's right, and we can'timagine where he's taking us.
So if we try to control thatand that control is always going
to be an illusion then we'reprobably keeping ourselves from
really receiving true joy andtrue happiness and growing
(20:08):
closer the way that he wants towith us.
So I don't know that I'm goingto be a deacon.
I do know that I want to takethe next step and the reason I
know that I want to take thenext step is, um, father Edwin
recommended a book called theDiscernment of Spirits, which
(20:31):
was a translation of St Ignatiusof Loyola's first writings.
On that, um, and it wasfantastic.
It was a little bit dense, likemaybe if you're not Catholic
it's not immediately going toresonate, but if you're
interested in that, the firstreading gets to the point where
you're like, okay, this isreally gelling for me, this is
(20:51):
coming into place, and on thesecond reading it's even better.
But he's got 14 rules for thediscernment of spirits and
ultimately he says we're inconsolation or desolation.
We're either moving towards Godor we're moving away from God
and ultimately, with all of hisrules, it's not super
(21:13):
complicated.
Are you feeling closer to God ornot?
Are you moving closer to God ornot?
Are you acting closer to God ornot?
And you moving closer to God ornot?
Are you acting closer to God ornot?
And if you are in desolation,don't make big decisions about
your spiritual life.
And if you are in consolation,that's the time to double down
(21:35):
and move even closer to God andto discern what your next step
is.
And I've felt consolation inevery single thing that I've
done with the diaconate, otherthan super uncomfortable chairs
at St Raphael retreat center.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Father Stephen went out there once.
I remember him talking about itin one of those, one of the
episodes.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Jillian went there, I think, three easters in a row
when she was at the highlandschool really that's they would
do an easter um like for thetriduum.
They would go out and theywould volunteer in the community
and they'd have a nightlyadoration and where is?
It um.
So if you go south on 35, justlike just over the?
Um, just past the mix masterand just over the bridge, um
(22:23):
like right around zhang curve islike you exit and it's back in
that neighborhood there so how,I don't know.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
so like tell me, like how's, how's it been going?
Like what's, what's's, what's?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
the things that have, like, stood out the most to you
, or the things that havechallenged you the most, or I
think the biggest challenge isit has been 30 years since I had
to take notes when I wasreading a book.
I cannot remember the last timethat I sat down and read
something and then said okay,stop, go back, let's start
taking notes, cause we're notgoing to retain all this.
(23:04):
Um, but that's exciting, right,like.
It means that I'm I'm gettingto learn things.
You know some of the stuff youand I have talked about, um,
some of the stuff you and fatherSteven have talked about, right
Like, I'm reading through thesector St Sancto, sancto,
(23:29):
sanctum Concilium, man, that'shard to say.
I want to put an extra n inthere.
Um, I'm reading through thosevatican ii documents and um,
it's just, it's fascinating.
It's fascinating to see allthese things that you and I may
take for granted because ofwhere we're at, but um, maybe
wasn't like it absolutely wasn'ttaken for granted in the 70s or
the 80s, but um, I've, I've hada lot of that chirp feeling
every single time I've beendoing this yeah that, um, and a
(23:54):
big part of that, I mean.
I'm certain you know andremember, there's that feeling
that this is how I'm supposed tobe spending my time yes like
this is a much, much better useof my time than anything else I
could be doing isn't that weirdalmost no, I think it's, I think
it's in it.
(24:15):
We have to.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
How joy yeah, how we normally live our lives, where
I'm bored or there's.
I'm looking forward to thisthing.
But I've noticed, right,because it's the same thing when
you're, when you're at a trip,retreat or something like that,
when you're caught up or likethis, talking about God and
sharing your experiences.
To me at least, there is thissensation, this fulfillment,
(24:38):
this maybe it's joy, right?
This, this is the mostsatisfying thing I can think of
doing now that I've experiencedit.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
And I mean there's lots of great things to do out
there.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
There are.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
But I almost feel it's like the they go up the
mountain for the transfiguration.
Peter's like, let's just stayhere.
Jesus is like no, no, no, no,we gotta go right.
This is where no, no, no, no,we got to go right.
This is where I don't knownothing compares to it.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
It doesn't and it's and you're right like there's so
many other things.
I mean I'm definitely going toPaso Livre Solo after this and
picking up more than bananas,like I'm not coming all the way
out here and not getting some ofthat.
But there's the opportunitythere's.
There was the.
So the first semester is reallyvery, very passive and um, and
(25:31):
what I mean by that is not just,like kenny, you're being
lectured to, but you're beinglectured to with no expectation
back at all.
The second semester you'rebeing lectured to a lot more,
but a lot more of it is kind ofacademic and there is an
expectation that you're going tobe able to to grow and to to be
able to do something like thereis a return that you're meant
to give.
(25:52):
Next semester will be even muchmore like that.
You know, in the second yearassuming they sign off on my
application aspirancy- which iswe're in the middle of right now
.
Yeah, they sign off on myapplication aspirancy, which is
we're in the middle of right now.
Yeah, um, so there were a lotof sessions around things like
this is what it's like to be adeacon, and some of the aspects
(26:12):
of that.
Um, we had someone who lost hiswife in the Akinna formation.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
And um, and you take a vow of chastity, which means
you maintain your, you maintainsexual continence.
So if you're married, that'sgroovy, but if you're widowed,
like you're done Now, you'recelibate.
Um, we heard about prisonministry and hospital ministry
(26:45):
and challenges and just some ofthe things that can make it hard
for people.
I actually read a book by awoman whose husband had been
ordained a deacon immediatelyafter Vatican II and after the
reinstitution of the permanentdiaconate and like her story was
(27:09):
, this was not easy.
Like we had to make adjustments.
We had I had to remind him thathe can't go spend 36 hours a
day being a deacon.
Like there's, he's gotresponsibilities at home, so
there's there's balances youhave to strike, but, um, but we
heard a lot about those and wehad some mock classes, like
here's what a lecture would looklike from some of the people
(27:31):
who are going to be lecturing usat university of Dallas.
Um, and they made sure uh, theymake sure that fellowship is a
part of what we're doing.
So there's always mealtimetogether and there's always
there's there's small cohorts ofthe deacons and their wives who
(27:53):
get together outside of theweekend where we're going to St
Raphael, yeah, and so, and Imean you know exactly what that
feels like because you've doneSherpa a number of times, and so
it's the same sort ofexperience of growing an
intimacy to others, to otherpeople that you know at least
(28:14):
share this basic love of God,which is important because so
many of the people that we meetin life we may not have anything
in common with them or we maybe very much at odds in some of
the most fundamental things.
So that part is really reallyjoyful.
It's really fantastic to beable to spend time with men and
(28:37):
women who you know love Christ,who you know are interested in
serving in their communities,who are active in the church,
and just hearing about theirchallenges too.
Almost every single one of themhas got kid challenges right.
It's either I've got kids thatstill live in the house that are
18 and less, and I've got kidchallenges A lot of times.
(28:59):
I've got kids who are like backin the house and they're over
18 and I've got kid challenges,but we're not alone.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Is there a minimum deacon age, assuming you're not
transitional deacon towards thepriesthood?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
There is a minimum and maximum and I think a year
ago I probably had that writtendown.
I don't know that I still havethat written down.
I think it's like 35 to 65 orsomething like that there is a
that.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, there is a range.
Yeah, I feel if you're, if youwere interested in the permanent
diaconate, you probably need acertain amount of life under you
before you can make that kindof choice.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Well, yeah, I mean, and if you even think about,
actually, the apostles, likethey wanted men who had been
seasoned and were respected inthe community and proven to be
stable, um, like, those are allattributes and they continue to
be attributes today.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
If you look in the basic norms, um for the
permanent deck, in it like itreferences those verses in acts
and says like this is thiscontinues today to be an
essential element of what itmeans to be a deacon, because
you're serving in personachristy survey, you're serving
in the person of christ, theservant.
Um, that's not.
(30:14):
That's a lot of what they'rediscerning of us during this is
is this a matter of ego?
Is it a matter of um?
You know some sort ofpsychological impediment that
you've got, that you know you'relooking for some satisfaction
somehow, yeah.
Like you're looking to fill avoid that needs to be filled um
correctly.
(30:34):
So I mean they're looking anddiscerning that Um.
So we've done.
You know we've done the classes, but we also had um.
It was a multi-step applicationprocess.
So the application it coveredso many different things and I'm
(30:55):
trying to remember if I gaveyou that in the show prep, but
the application occurs in thesecond semester for the next
step, for aspirancy, and thenthat's a two-year process and
then you're still applyinganother time for candidacy.
(31:17):
And so they took a credit check.
They want a recent version ofmy um, my resume.
They had college transcripts.
They want a college transcripts.
Yeah, they want to collegetranscripts.
They want.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
They want a picture of you and your wife Right All
sorts of and and that's a reallyinteresting.
I keep thinking.
I really want to talk to Robintoo.
And I have her because it isabsolutely necessary, it's
fundamentally necessary for herto be a part of this process.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
And that's very interesting.
And she and the wives haveindependent veto yep, like if
she says no, the answer is no sothere's so there's so much
learning going on and somethingthat always interests me and
maybe this is something a pointof interest in my life right now
, because sophia is the ageshe's at but there is a
(32:08):
difference between I'm gonna putthis, I'm gonna cache this
stuff in my short-term memory soI can regurgitate it on a test
or something and move forwardright, and then integrating what
you learn into your life that'sright, so that integration is
fascinating to me, and because Ithink that those are those
(32:31):
moments, it's like going to RCIA, right?
You learn, you learn, you learn,you learn, you learn.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Have you ever been a part of the RCIA program?
Robin attended.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
RCIA.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Okay, because she was not raised Catholic, she wasn't
confirmed, but I wasn't hersponsor and I will be.
That's one of the firstpastoral assignments you get as
a deacon in formation is you'regoing to go spend a year at a
church not your own and you'regoing to participate in the RCIA
(33:04):
program.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah, and so you learn, learn, learn, learn,
learn.
Participate in the rca rcaprogram?
Yeah, and so there's.
So you learn, learn, learn,learn, learn.
But if you're not integratingwhat you're learning into your
life which to me, I I understand, is as where it moves from your
head to your heart, you know,um, like that's the important
moment.
And what's interesting to me,too, is that integration never
(33:30):
seems to be very clean.
In my own life, father Stevenstold me things that years later
the light bulb finally turns on.
Oh yeah, I get it now, insteadof in the moment when somebody's
teaching it to you.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Right and in RCIA you're moving forward right.
So at some point in time youmake this declaration and you
may still not have many of thecomponents of our faith and all
that.
It still may not be fullyintegrated, but you know you
want to move forward.
I don't think you're quite inthe same boat in the diaconate
but you do need to.
(34:07):
There's a part, do that yeah,yeah, you do need to integrate
everything that you're learningand I guess that's the
difference between just readingthe book and annotating the book
as you're, as you're reading itright well.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
So, um, I worked at a company where they had a
training um program where theytalked about 10, 20, 70 and
basically they said thateducation is 10 or learning is
10.
Education like that, thatpassive reception of information
, it's 20 exposure, seeing how,what that actually means in real
(34:38):
life, but it's 70 experience,and so, um, one of the beautiful
things about saying aboutfather steven is that he's so
good at explaining not just thewhat but the why.
Like this is this is how it's alogical necessity, this is how
it makes sense within thebroader context, which I think
is a really good help tounderstand it so that you can
(34:59):
integrate it.
It's a better.
It's not just throwing theseeds on the ground, it's
planting them and watering them.
But ultimately, withoutexperience, we're not angels, so
we're not going to perfectlyunderstand it right, like we
have to, because we're corporeal.
We do have to, I think,experience that in a lot of ways
to really truly be able tointegrate it into our lives, um,
(35:21):
and to be able to have, I thinkwe're, in part, we're making
mental connections or or evensometimes emotional connections
between one experience andanother, which means that we're
also, um, like that's, that'ssupporting our, our mental
assessment of of that knowledgeand our intellectual assessment
of that knowledge and ourspiritual assessment of that
(35:42):
knowledge.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, so how's, how has the integration been for you
so far?
That's, that's almost a weirdway to say it, because how's
your assimilation been well?
Speaker 2 (35:52):
we are bored, yeah, um the resistance is futile it
certainly is the um nerds fathersteven will be so happy, I know
that's exactly what I wasthinking.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Oh, by the way, like a year ago, probably even more,
Father Stephen made some kind ofBabylon 5 reference.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah, yeah, I remember that Was that when you
were here.
It was on an episode rightbefore we recorded, and then he
made the same sorts ofreferences during ours.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I literally finished it this week,
finally, finally finished.
It's like seven seasons.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
It's a long.
It's a lot of episodes.
Yeah it was good Side note orside tangent, right.
The last season was kind of meh.
I see what they were doing, butit felt to me as though they
were trying to find a way towrap things up.
They probably had studiopressure like this has gone on
(36:52):
long enough.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Tie off all the loose ends and kind of move forward.
But they did it all right.
I think the best part of theseries is there is a lot of
things going on that are neverexpressly.
There's this underlying tone,that stuff is happening that
you're not privy to.
And then, because everythingtakes place on the space station
(37:16):
, for the most part right, andso you'll get these little bits
of pieces of things, and so theythey do a good job of weaving
these threads continuouslythrough so you might have an
episode about so you learn itlike a character would learn it
yeah, so yeah, yeah, there'slike an episode where somebody
is hyper focused in this oneevent that's going on, but in
the background, because thatthread is woven through all the
(37:36):
episodes.
You see the movement of all thebig things going on in the
background.
So it's well done.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
It's well done I mean , ultimately, is the way our
lives really are that, um know,we kind of know the end of the
story if we're reading the Bible, but when it comes to our lives
, we're no smarter than anybodyin the Bible was about.
We learn it as it happens to ussometimes instead of seeing the
bigger picture.
The integration part is, Ithink it requires patience.
(38:06):
So one of the things that wehave to do as a part of um
application to candidacy oraspirancy is go see a counselor.
So we saw this woman, berniceSimmons, and um spent about two
and a half hours with her umafter taking like we had like a
250 question assessment.
So it was like a.
It was a.
(38:26):
It was a marriage instrumentthat they use for um pre-cana
counseling and for people whoare maybe having issues in their
lives and maybe in even inmarriage encounter um to
identify, you know, where do youalign together and where do you
have differences together orwhere do you have the kind of
alignment that could be negativeLike.
I really wish John wasn't sostubborn you know, if, like and
(38:47):
you said, I wish, really wishBetty wasn't so stubborn Like
y'all, both strongly agree tothat.
That's not a good thing.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Um.
So one of the things that wetalked about was extroverted um
thinkers versus introvertedthinkers, and it's not the same
thing as extroverts andintroverts.
That's like.
That's an emotional thing.
It's some people processexternally and they speak about
as they're thinking, and somepeople need silence and quiet
and they process internally andshe was kind of talking us
through that and drawing thispicture of Mark.
(39:15):
You're an introverted thinkerand you tend to process
internally.
The problem is that you don'treally give anything back.
So like on your thing, yourside of your brain, like you're
half, like you're full there,and then you're full on your
side, on your Robin side,because Robin's telling you the
things that she thinks, butshe's completely empty because
you're not giving it back.
(39:35):
So like you've got to becareful that you don't leave her
hanging and she's got to becareful that she doesn't
overwhelm you with her thoughtsand gives you time to process,
and like that's a really amazinginsight for us.
After 23 years of marriage,we're still going to integrate
that right.
Like we still got to figure outall right.
(39:56):
So how do I build habits to tobe more verbal than I would
naturally be how do I, how doesshe recognize or how do I even
signal to her in a loving waythat, um, you know?
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Hey, I need a minute, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Um.
So I think the integration partis.
The integration part is is anopportunity to practice patience
, um, and pray for help and totrust in God.
But, um, but I know that thepastoral elements of formation
are a big part of thatintegration.
If you think about the ways inwhich you have served in your
(40:29):
life, you've probably learnedmore, so much more, about your
faith in that pastoral care ofothers, in your love for your
wife and your daughter thananything else in your life, than
any amount of reading.
So I truly believe that 10, 20,70 rule, like I truly believe
(40:50):
it's not.
Until we actually go experiencewhat the Bible's telling us,
what our priests are telling us,what our friends are telling us
in the care of others, in theexercise of corporal and
spiritual acts of mercy, I don'tthink you integrate any of your
faith and that's one of thereasons, like more and more.
(41:13):
That's why I said when we firsttalked that everybody should go
through diaconate formation,like everybody should kind of
experience the same things.
I truly believe that the thingsthat they're having us do that
I'm blessed to have somebodykind of help me with we all need
to do Like.
We all need to pray more.
We all need to pray with thePsalms and the scriptures more.
(41:36):
We all need to serve others.
Serve the poor, serve the youknow, serve the sick, serve
those in prison.
God, and you know thisintellectually, god never, ever,
ever told us anything, becausehe was, was just a tough guy.
Every single thing he told usto do was out of love for us.
He was giving us the perfectrecipes for success.
(41:58):
Every time he told us don'tkill, don't lust after your
neighbor's wife, feed the poorand the hungry.
None of that's for our I meanhungry.
None of that's for our I mean100% of that's for our benefit.
Prayer is not for God's benefit, it's for our benefit.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Yeah, it changes you, not him.
That's so interesting, thinkingof the process that you're
going through and, as you said,after 20 some odd years of of
marriage, you're like what youknow?
Learn something new?
Um, it is.
(42:35):
It is so.
Communication is so hard andnegotiation, negotiating
relationships or justinteractions with people around
you is so hard.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
It is.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
And it's hard with your spouse, it's hard with your
kids, it's hard with yourneighbor, it's hard with your
boss, it's hard with people whoreport to you.
Right, it's all hard.
Yeah, I wonder if there's somekind of opportunity there to
(43:12):
bring some of this to peoplelike the laity at a parish.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
You mean to take kind of like the best parts of
formation.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Well, I think, in some ways, depending on the
nature of your parish and thesize of it, parishes are, and
they're trying to do it all thetime.
Our parish, I mean, you knowhow big St Anne is.
You know how much real estateit covers, it's almost
impossible to book a room if youdon't plan a number of months
in advance.
(43:43):
Yeah, because ministries thereStephen ministry and CH and
chirp and mom's ministry andmarriage encounter Like there's
so many ministries going onwhere people are working to to
serve each other.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Um marriage encounter and the Holy spirit, um the
encounter sessions, that there'salpha, there's so much going on
.
Um, I think that, um, for somereason, for many reasons, we
tend to avoid those.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
I was just thinking that there's so much, how hard
is it to get you to do the thinglike that you're supposed to go
do?
How many people?
Speaker 2 (44:21):
the first time they were in chirp said like people
have been asking me to do thisfor 22 years and I finally did
it.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Yeah, my wife's been on me for seven years.
Yeah, yeah, like all of them.
Yeah, my wife's been on me forseven years.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Yeah, like all of them.
Yeah, and it kind of goes backto what we were talking about
earlier, like this once wechoose to do it, once we
experience it, we realize thisis the best thing People tend to
look at, and especially peoplewho aren't Christian or Catholic
.
They tend to look at the peoplewho are, like, involved in
(44:51):
Bible studies and saying, man,y'all are crazy.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
You're in a cult, why would you spend your time that
way?
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
And you're only saying that because you've never
tried it Like they're in thatbecause they realized this is
such a blessing in their livesthat it's the best thing that
they can be doing with theirtime.
And I think that we do have,like at St Ann, we've got
Stephen Ministry for those whoare bereaved.
We've got people who areactually licensed well, not
licensed, but certifiedspiritual advisors, like just
(45:22):
lay people who are doing thatstuff.
So I think there's so manyopportunities and we have an
intellectual and or spirituallack of curiosity to pursue
those things sometimes.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Yeah, because we're comfortable and we're broken.
Yeah, I was going to sayconsequence of the broken world
and this reminds me of what Iwas saying just the other week
with my friend Anthony is andthis is so weird.
Again, it's something that Irecognize in myself and it's
going to take who knows.
(45:54):
Only God knows how long for meto integrate into my brain fully
.
Excuse me is my default statusis oh, somebody should do
something about that, wheninstead I should be realizing
that the best opportunity forfor the best parts of formation
(46:18):
to affect the people in the ofthe world is to integrate them
into myself.
And then go be a good neighbor,right the community.
Go form relationships withpeople and, through your
relationship, evangelize themand help them to integrate these
things into their life, notbecause you're you're preaching
(46:39):
or teaching to them, but throughyour example, because we're all
drawn to people like that.
Right, there's this natural wow, that that guy's really great,
you know.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
And well, success begets success.
Everybody wants to be a part ofa winning team.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Right, it's like the Apple TV show what's it called?
With the soccer coach.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Is it Ted's?
Speaker 2 (47:02):
No, ted Lasso, yeah, yeah yeah, like people want to
be a part of a winning team, andI think that we ask, we think
somebody should do somethingabout that, instead of asking
what can I do about that?
And I mean, there's somethingeverybody can do about that,
even if it's just praying onthat, praying for God's
intercession, praying for theintercession of the saints for
(47:26):
that person.
You know, in our and if you, ifyou pray the um, the divine
office, at least once everycouple weeks, there's a prayer
for um our leaders in officethat they may love the world
more fully and that they maylove more than just their own
nation and they may see um thepeace and the good of all the
world.
And um is that suddenly goingto make our politicians saints?
(47:51):
I don't think so, uh, but Istill believe it's efficacious,
I still think that it doessomething yeah and um and like
you're right, like we're all ofit.
we live in a busy world andespecially if you know any of us
that have kids or have jobs orany of the other things like all
of us feel overwhelmed all thetime, so nobody really wants to
(48:11):
adopt something new.
I think it's not about adoptingsomething new.
It's about upgrading the thingsin your life.
Why not read scripture 30minutes a day instead of playing
Angry Birds?
Like you're not adding it toyour life.
You're upgrading the thingthat's in your life that isn't
(48:32):
really giving you joy.
It's just giving you distraction.
Well, you can turn away fromthe things that you're not
enjoying in your life, your workor your pressures, and turn to
something even more fulfilling,even more joyful, even more
everything that you've actuallybeen looking for, even more
suited to fill that hole in yourlife.
Yeah, and it ultimately is.
(48:54):
I think the more that we go dothose things, the more that it
changes us.
But it's kind of like you knowpeople who eliminate sugar from
their diet and it changes theirtastes Suddenly.
Everything else they've beeneating tastes better and they
just hate the taste of reallyheavy sugary things.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
Yeah, or you eat something a piece of fruit and
you're blown away by how sweetit is.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
now, this is sugar bomb.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
What is this?
A donut.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
If only if they grew on trees.
So I just saw how long we'vebeen recording and I also
realized that I never did thewhole.
Welcome to the podcast thing.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
You're going to layer that in post-production right.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
I don't know.
We'll fix it post-production,but let's do this, let's go
ahead and let's end this one andthen next time, here in five
minutes, we'll keep going.
I want to know more about howintegrating what you've been
experiencing in your life hasaffected your marriage, your
(49:51):
role as a dad, all those kindsof things.
Okay, and just see how thingsare going.
Yeah.
So, mark, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
It's always a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Thanks for listening.
We'll see you next time.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.