August 23, 2024 • 50 mins
In this episode, John and Father Stephen explore Pope John XXIII's vision of the Pilgrim Church as detailed in Lumen Gentium, emphasizing the Church's ongoing mission away from a triumphalist view. They reflect on the veneration of saints, with a special focus on Mary, and how these practices weave into the Church's mission toward unity with God and humanity. They discuss Christ’s role as the light of nations and how the Church acts as a beacon and instrument of divine unity.
What role does the Holy Spirit play in the Church’s theology? Fr. Stephen unravels the profound mysteries of the Church as both the body and bride of Christ, animated by the Holy Spirit. They discuss the essential role of sacraments, especially the Eucharist, in fostering unity and the Church’s mission of witnessing God's reconciling love. Highlighting insights from Yves Congar and the Second Vatican Council, they delve into the restored Augustinian view of the Holy Spirit as the soul of the Church, emphasizing Trinitarian aspects and the interconnectedness within the Church community. Join us for a dialogue that challenges and enriches your understanding of these complex theological concepts.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to our podcast friends.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you like our podcast andwant to support us, please
subscribe or follow us, andplease don't forget to click the
notification bell so you willbe notified when new episodes
release.
Thank you and God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me and myfriend, the friar Father Stephen
Sanchez, a Discalced CarmelitePriest.
Good evening, father.
Good evening Good evening.
Are those more boxes in thebackground?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yes, more boxes.
I have more boxes still tobring.
So, oh my goodness, little bylittle the majority of my stuff
is here.
Now I've got a few things leftstill to bring, some kitchen
stuff that I use, right so formy cooking, baking and all that
stuff.
So I'll store that away.
When I get bring it back down,but yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I was just gonna say I was just there, I just cleaned
up this mess.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I know, so I just brought this back and then the
last two weeks I've just beencrazy busy, so it's okay.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Speaking of baking, I've just been crazy busy.
It's okay.
Speaking of baking, yourpersimmon bread was so good.
Did you like it?
It was so good I had to, so Idid just like you said.
I cut off a nice thick pieceand I'd like toast it and then
(01:45):
smear butter on it and stufflike that.
But I made the mistake ofsharing some with Sophia and
then I was like fighting her forit.
So it just like the bread, thelittle loaf went like it was
like gone.
Did Betty get any?
Yeah, she did.
Everyone loved it, so it's likeit.
So is it like a banana breadbase, just with persimmons
(02:09):
instead?
Or like how did you?
I've never had persimmon breadbefore, but it reminded me of
banana bread it's a quick yeah,it's a quick bread recipe.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So basically it's.
I had some persimmons, I hadmade some.
We had a big bunch ofpersimmons last fall.
And so after they had ripened Isaid, well, I don't want them to
spoil.
So I scooped out all the fruitand put them in little Ziplocs
and threw them in the freezerand I said later I'll make some
(02:36):
later.
My sons in San Antonio, theones that got me sick I had
visited them the last timebefore I got sick.
I had been promising them foryears, like I got to bring you
some persimmon bread.
I got to bring you somepersimmon bread.
And so the last time I wasthere I'm tired of hearing about
(03:03):
this fantasy persimmon bread Isaid so I had to take some out
of the freezer.
Okay, baking in the summer is apain if it's hot.
So then I took them somepersimmon bread.
And then when I told you aboutthat, you said what I said yeah,
next time I'll make a couple ofloaves and I'll bring you a
loaf.
So that's what I did.
So it's really good, it's veryenjoyable.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, look how those rascals repaid your kindness.
Yeah, contaminating me Withgerms.
Oh man, I just got done.
While I was waiting for you, Iwas watching this guy was
cooking lamb chops in polentaand I was like ooh.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Ooh, that's good.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, food, food, food.
You know some food's for thebody, some food is for the soul.
Yes, and that's a terriblesegue into Vatican II teachings,
but we're going to try food forthe.
How would you say that in Latin?
(04:05):
If they had all the differentdecrees and the different, what
do you call each oneConstitution?
What would be the Latin forconstitution of food for the
soul?
How would you say that?
I?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
have no idea.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I have no idea.
I have no idea.
Well, I'm going to, because nowI'm thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
I'm not a.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Latinist.
I'm going to see what GoogleTranslate says From English to
Latin.
Latin Food for the soul.
Uh, is a c sent like the letterc?
(04:50):
Is it a hard like a k?
Speaker 1 (04:53):
it depends where it's , if it's followed by a vowel or
is it followed what's?
It what's what vowel is itfollowed by?
So it's c I b u s, so it's likeeither sibus or c-i-b-u-s c,
it'd be sibus sibus, so it'ssibus anime okay, anime is the
(05:14):
soul to feed the soul okayanyway, feed us, father, we're,
we're hungry so we began lastepisode, the last episode.
We began the last episode.
We began the history andintroduction into the Second
Vatican Council and thebeginning of Lumen Gentium.
Did the overview of the coredocuments and the three
(05:37):
categories of the otherdocuments that the rest of the
documents fell into?
Yeah, documents fell into, yeah, and we talked a little.
We ended on the difficulty ofgrasping the council's teachings
.
Um, that had to do with um, adifferent presentation, whereas
vatican one and trent were moreusing scholastic language, right
(06:00):
, and whereas the Second VaticanCouncil it was using a lot of
biblical references.
There was historicalexpositions, there's analyses of
contemporary issues, citationsof previous councils and all
that stuff, right.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Like the Pope.
Yeah, papal texts andeverything.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
All that right all that, so it's a much more
complete.
I would say completepresentation, right.
And also that we talked aboutthis.
You brought this up thisquestion of compromise, how
two-thirds majority, wassomething that Paul VI was
pushing for, which led to a lotof adjustments in the narrative
(06:39):
right, how it was presented.
And then, thirdly, the mostdifficult aspect of it is that
each document needs to be readin the context of all the
documents, and most peoplenowadays don't like to read, so
that makes it very difficult.
So anyway, those were some ofthe difficulties in grasping the
Council's teaching.
So now I want to go over justthe eight chapters, just the
(07:03):
titles of the eight chapters.
So it's the Dogmaticconstitution on the church, and
chapter one is on the mystery ofthe church.
I'm going to touch a little biton that.
Chapter two is on the people ofGod.
Chapter three is on thehierarchical structure, whereas
before in Trent, and I thinkeven in Vatican I, it began with
(07:28):
the hierarchical structure,especially Trent right.
So this is now chapter three,so it's not the very beginning
of the document.
Chapter four is on the laity,so I'm going to touch a little
bit on the laity, chapter four.
Chapter five is the universalcall to holiness, so I'll be
talking a little bit about thatChapter 6 is on religious,
(07:49):
chapter 7 is the pilgrim churchand chapter 8 is the Blessed
Virgin Mary, mother of God inthe mystery of Christ and the
church.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, and all of this this is why I love this stuff,
stuff.
All of this is just so.
Later we can finally talk aboutchapter eight yes, yeah he's
like let me tell you a story.
So I can tell you a story.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
It's, it's contextual everything builds on everything
else and so if you just go, ifyou just read the last chapter
of a novel, you go like, okay,I'm done, but you don't
understand the context of it,right?
So it's interesting that in thehistory of the development of
this particular constitution,the last two chapters chapter
(08:36):
seven on the pilgrim church andchapter eight on the Blessed
Virgin Mary they were not partof the original draft.
What was originally presentedwere 11 chapters and then the 11
chapters going through.
You know all the modificationsand, as we said earlier, the
(08:58):
give and take of dialogue withall the bishops, right, they
reduced 11 chapters to four inthe first revision.
That's a lot of.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah, might be a little harsh.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah, and then the four chapters became five and
then so that was in the secondrevision.
So then the chapter on Our Lady, chapter eight.
So then the chapter on Our Ladychapter 8, existed as a
separate draft, as a separatedocument, right, Not part of
(09:34):
Lumen Gentium and was not seenas part of the constitution of
the church.
And chapter 7 on the PilgrimChurch.
It's the reason that we have itin Lumen Gentium is because of
Pope John XXIII, hisintervention.
He wanted a chapter on thePilgrim Church, the fact that we
(09:57):
are continuously travelingtowards the celestial Jerusalem,
right.
I think part of it was tryingto get rid of the idea that the
church would get away from thatidea that we've arrived, we're
here, this is yeah, Right, sothat we still have work to do,
in other words, and so he wantedus to enter into that, into the
(10:21):
idea of being a pilgrim churchwhich is later confirmed by Paul
VI.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, I was just going to say,and I like that they tied Mary
into the church, kind of thing Ithink it's very fitting, and I
think we'll see that here, butwe'll also see it when we dig
into chapter 8, later episodes.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
So the prefect of the Congregation of Rites, in
conjunction with a smallcommission, prepared a text
concerning the Catholic doctrineon the veneration of the saints
as part of the Church'sself-explanation in the dogmatic
constitution.
So it's a very small part interms of the veneration of
(11:02):
saints, of the veneration ofsaints right.
And so this is then where, allof a sudden, mary, as the saint
then, is brought in instead of aseparate constitution, brought
into the believing body of thechurch as one of the first
redeemed right.
So let me read a quote herefrom Otto Simmelroth, chapter 7,
(11:26):
the Eschatological Nature ofthe Pilgrim Church.
Here he says, the introductionof this theme, pilgrim Church
and Our Lady, proved to be ofmajor service to the church in
her self-presentation, for itcalled attention to the fact
(11:47):
that an essential feature of thechurch, without which she
cannot be properly described,had not indeed been forgotten
but had not been explored hereschatological dynamism.
Remember that word?
Okay, so the wholeeschatological nature of the
(12:09):
church.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
What I remember is how hard it is to say for sure
no, but like to the end, like tothe the completion right when
Christ comes in glory right.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
The end point right.
So, continuing on with the quote, not only can and must it be
discussed along with herinstitutional aspect, so the
church as institute but alsothat there is a future towards
she is journeying towards rightor the completion when Christ
comes in glory.
(12:42):
If it is not, then the churchwill incorrectly be represented,
even as an institution.
Point or its journey towardsthis eschaton, the coming of
Christ and the fulfillment ofthe glory that Christ will give
(13:10):
to the Father, right with therestoration of all things.
It brings the veneration ofsaints out of the isolation in
which its significance could notbe properly grasped, showing it
to be a concrete embodiment ofthe Church's eschatological
nature.
And, conversely, thisdiscussion of the veneration of
(13:33):
saints ensures that theconciliar doctrine on the Church
must explicitly treat her vitaleschatological aspect.
So what he's saying is it'snecessary for us to remember
what we'd call the communion ofsaints, that we're connected to
those who have gone before us,marked in the sign of faith.
(13:54):
But not only is this acommunion that we're engaged in,
but that the whole purpose ofthis is again moving towards
holiness, moving towardscomplete consummation, communion
with Jesus Christ in the HolyTrinity right.
So that is where we're strivingfor and it's important then to
(14:20):
declare this or else then youcan fall into the idea of what
they used to call thetriumphalist church, where, like
we, we're basically heaven onearth already.
We've got our liturgy, we'vegot everything here, and so
we're, you know, we don't needanything else, and so I think
that was part of the idea ofmoving away from that type of
(14:41):
perception or even that type ofposturing in the world.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, I like how he says or yeah, I won't even try
and say the guy's name in thatquote I like how he says that
the way that we talk about thechurch's purpose, right, it's
eschatological dynamism.
We talk about the church'spurpose right, it's
eschatological dynamism, right?
Like, if you don't do thatright, then you can't even talk
about the institutional part ofthe church, right?
Correct, because you just don'tunderstand it, correct, correct
(15:14):
.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Correct.
So I mean the idea of Peterreceiving the keys of the
kingdom is not to establish thekingdom on earth, but that the
church on earth is preparingitself to journey towards its
final realization, which is thecelestial Jerusalem, the wedding
banquet of the Lamb, whicheverways you want to verbalize that
(15:38):
right.
Yeah verbalize that right.
Yeah, I would like to payspecial attention on chapters
one, which is the mystery of thechurch, on chapter four, which
is the laity, chapter five, onthe universal call to holiness,
(16:00):
so we can finally get to chaptereight on the Blessed Virgin
Mary.
Okay, so a little bit onchapter 1, no-transcript, and
this is where we get the titleLumen Gentium Christ is the
light of nations.
Because this is so, this sacredsynod, gathered together in the
(16:26):
Holy Spirit, eagerly desires,by proclaiming the gospel to
every creature, to bring thelight of Christ to all men or to
all, a light brightly visibleon the countenance of the Church
.
Since the Church is in Christlike a sacrament or as a sign
(16:47):
and instrument both of a veryclosely knit union with God and
the unity of the whole humanrace, it desires now to unfold
more fully to the faithful ofthe Church and to the whole
world its own inner nature anduniversal mission.
This it intends to do followingfaithfully the teaching of
(17:13):
previous councils, thepresent-day conditions of the
world.
Okay, the reason I'm quotingthis number one is what the
(17:36):
conciliar fathers want to do isto give an exposition of the
church's own inner nature andits mission to the world.
So this is the purpose of this.
The conciliar fathers, in thisdogmatic constitution, then, are
(17:59):
attempting to verbalize, giveexpression to the church's own
self-understanding and the dualrole that we have as church, the
dual role that is both the bodyof Christ and the bride of
Christ and, as bride and body,the mission that the church has
(18:25):
received from God through Christfor the salvation of all.
So already this is a verydifficult thing to try to
verbalize, that is, that we arethe body of Christ and we are
also the bride of Christ, andthe reason that is goes back to
(18:47):
even the nature of Jesus as trueGod and true man, god and true
man.
So we are both the body ofChrist and the bride of Christ
in our union.
That is exemplified and modeledfor us in the incarnation of
the word itself and taking onour humanity.
So this is a very deep andexistential understanding of
(19:14):
itself that it's going to try toexplain.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Right, yeah, struck me as I was reading through your
notes was how often I hearpeople argue about what is the
(19:43):
church and it seems people tendto a lot of times take the
position of it's.
It's just this mystical kind ofinvisible unity, that of all
christians all over the world,no matter what their
denomination, and all that kindof stuff.
(20:03):
So they'll pick like one campor the other, so they'll say
that, or they'll say it's likethe hierarchy or something, and
this is and, and what we'll getthrough is how.
It's way more complicated thanthat because, it's always the
both and kind of thing you know,yeah and so there's the fact I
was just giving a
Speaker 1 (20:22):
class to some catechists today on faith
formation team, right, andbasically I said, like you know,
we do all these studies and solike, for example, a doctor, he
has to study the skeleton, hehas to study the mus doctor, he
has to study the skeleton, hehas to study the musculature, he
has to study the cardiovascularsystem, he has to study the
nervous system, he has to studythe endocrine system, he has to
(20:47):
study all these differentsystems that make up one body.
And so part of the same thinghappens here in the church.
Sometimes we tend to dissectthe church and we forget that
it's a living organism.
It is breathing the breath ofthe Holy Spirit, so it's alive
(21:12):
and growing right and it's muchmore than just the local
community right, it is the localcommunity, but it's much more
than that.
Yeah, so a little bit on themystery of the church that this
number one talks about.
(21:32):
So the tradition, capital T.
We can go back and listen tothat episode too.
The tradition of the churchunderstands the word mystery to
mean an essential truth of thefaith that we cannot fully
comprehend, but that God hasgiven us signs towards a
comprehension of that truth orthat mystery.
(21:57):
St Paul applies this termmysterion to Christ in his
letter to the Colossians.
In Colossians, chapter 4, verse3, he says and pray for us also
(22:19):
, that God may open to us a doorfor the word.
There will always be somethingabout an ecclesial mystery that
escapes our comprehension.
That is the essence of God.
We can't fully comprehend him,or else he wouldn't be God.
Fully comprehend him, or elsehe wouldn't be God, and so our
inability to comprehend hisGodhead, his essence, is part of
(22:42):
the work of faith.
So God has chosen to revealhimself to us by breaking into
our human history in the mysteryof the incarnation, that is,
the person of Jesus Christ inhis sacred humanity.
So continuing on then, in thisidea of mystery and essential
(23:07):
truth, so in the mystery of thePassover of Christ, or the
Paschal mystery of Jesus Christ,the Passover of Christ or the
Paschal Mystery of Jesus Christ,god reveals the reconciliation
that Jesus wrought, or that Godwrought in Jesus, the
(23:27):
reconciliation between humanityand God, and that he himself has
worked in the life, death,resurrection of the God-man,
jesus Christ.
This is God's work and this ispart of the Paschal mystery,
right, this is part of essentialtruth of who God is right.
(23:47):
So, then, I have another quotehere, and this quote is from
Gilarditz, a book that he wroteon the Second Vatican Council.
The hope proclaimed by theprophets and the apostles is
(24:16):
realized, and we are now calledto be witnesses to God's
reconciling love before allpeoples.
So, okay, this mystery that wecelebrate, the Paschal mystery,
this part of mystery belongingto the larger church, this idea
of the council fathers aretrying to declare our
(24:38):
self-understanding right.
So our self-understanding isthat we, each one of us who are
part of the church through ourbaptism, each one of us, is now
called to be a witness of God'sreconciling love.
That is an essential aspect ofwho we are called to be.
(24:59):
So our sacraments are the waysin which we, god's people,
participate in the centralmystery of faith, this Passover,
the paschal mystery of JesusChrist, jesus handing himself
over, willingly to be sacrificed, to be a victim.
(25:22):
So this is an essentialunderstanding for us as well,
that this is part of who Jesusis in his willingness to give
himself up.
Continuing on with another quotefrom Galardes, so during the
Middle Ages, catholic theologybegan to apply the category of
(25:46):
mystery long understood to referto as to the mystical body of
Christ in the Eucharist, to themystical body of Christ that is
the Church.
So it expands that understandingof mystery, right, the medieval
(26:06):
authors understood that thefruit of participation in the
Eucharist is unity, thecommunion with God and with one
another that constitutes thevery foundation of church.
So, again, this is somethingthat needs to be continuously
brought up and we need to beconvicted of this is my
(26:31):
participation in the Eucharist,if I understand what I'm
participating in, if Iunderstand the Paschal mystery
that I am part of, and if Iunderstand the fact that I am
supposed to be an instrument anda sign of God's reconciling
love in the world, then therehas to be unity, right?
And so then the question wouldbe am I working towards unity
(26:56):
within my community?
Am I moving towards unity in mycommunity and as we look at the
humanity that is the church, wesee that there are parts that
are not right, and so there isthat human element, that parts
of the church or the body ofChrist that enter into division
(27:16):
over different things, whethergreat or small right, but that
there's this tendency at timesto work against unity instead of
towards unity.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah, so I was thinking about this the other
day when we went to mass on ohmy gosh, was it yesterday.
It's been a long week.
Yeah, it was literallyyesterday for the assumption,
but how quickly.
Okay, so, as your quotes aresaying that it's the
(27:50):
participation in the communionand, as you're saying, the
community, as you're saying, thecommunity, how that
participation is part of theEucharist, how, as the church,
we are actualizing andwitnessing to God's reconciling
(28:11):
love for everybody.
(28:32):
And so the two things that stoodout in my head was when you see
a very selfless act from oneperson to another, a very caring
act or a very selfless act tome at least I can't help but be
drawn into what Jesus' love musthave felt like in person, what
we're all called to, and whatwe're all called to because the
church is at its greatest, in myopinion, not when the
architecture is grand and themusic is great and the liturgy
is performed perfectly and allthat.
The church is greatest whensomebody sacrifices something to
(28:52):
help someone else Correct.
And how often this is thesecond thought we miss that,
even amongst our own, in our owncommunity, amongst ourselves,
because we go to church and thenwe're racing out to the parking
lot to try and get out.
You know before.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Everybody else does right.
Yeah, before you get caught upin the car jam.
Yeah, and so it's.
And I understand, and we do tooright, because it's been a long
day you're trying.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
you got other things you, before you get caught up in
the car jam.
Yeah, and I understand we dotoo, right, because it's been a
long day.
You got other things you got todo.
I get it.
But how do, like you're saying,how do we become so convicted
that we're willing to stop andgo?
Well, oh, my goodness, all thethings God has done in my life.
Can I just spare five minutesto help someone out?
(29:38):
Or can I not see an opportunityand go?
Oh, somebody should dosomething and instead go?
I'm going to do something rightnow, right, right.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And I think it's the continual call to conversion,
right?
I think that's something thatwe all need to continuously
challenge ourselves and feelconvicted, so okay.
So then, continuing on withthis, right?
So about, the foundation of thechurch is unity and communion
with God.
So this theology leftunaddressed, again, what we just
(30:12):
talked about the very humanface of the church.
And, as historicalcircumstances accumulated, the
beautiful theology of the MiddleAges was replaced by the very
real worries of wars, famines,droughts, right, remember,
during the Middle Ages, duringthe Protestant Revolution, the
(30:35):
religious wars, the famines, andyou have Catholic kings
fighting Catholic kings, and soall this is going on, right?
And so then the Protestantrebellion, or reformation,
claimed that the true church ofChrist was no longer visible.
Yep yep Right Because ofeverything right the human
(30:56):
element or the human nature ofthe church.
So then Cardinal Bellarmineargued against this Protestant
idea.
He argued against this and putforward the idea that the church
is a perfect society.
Right, the Church is a perfectsociety.
(31:27):
So Cardinal Bellarmine's viewlasted for several centuries,
that the Church is a perfectsociety.
The teaching of Vatican II isan effort to restore a balance
between understanding the innerspiritual dimensions of the
church and its concrete,historical and visible human
reality, trying to demonstrateor show the we say actualidad,
(31:55):
the real, the real situationright.
So this is what the council wastrying to do as well.
So, to accomplish this, thecouncil returns to the theology
implied in the biblical andpatristic understanding of
mysterion or mystery, whichgrounds a more incarnational
(32:18):
theology of the church and thesacraments.
It's not pie in the sky, right,it's very real, okay.
So that's one of the thingsthat the council was trying to
do, was trying to come to agreater balance of that truth.
So then, part of the mystery ofthe church is that the Holy
(32:45):
Spirit dwells in the church.
So, in number four of chapterone, the mystery of the church,
the Mystery of the Church,states the Spirit dwells in the
church and in the hearts of thefaithful, as in a temple, citing
(33:05):
Corinthians.
In them, he prays on theirbehalf and bears witness to the
fact that they are adopted sons,citing Galatians and Romans.
The church which the Spiritguides in the way of all truth,
citing John, and which heunified in communion and in
works of ministry.
(33:26):
He both equips and directs withhierarchical and charismatic
gifts and adorns with his fruits.
By the power of the gospel, hemakes the church keep the
freshness of youthUninterruptedly, he renews it
(33:51):
and leads it to perfect unionwith its spouse.
Yes, there is a very humanelement of the church, but it
should not forget the fact thatthe Holy Spirit dwells and that
(34:13):
the Holy Spirit is stillinspiring and pushing and moving
people towards God and thatcompletion of the mission, of
our own conversion, our ownchanging, our own transformation
, being considerate, being kind,being merciful, and that it's
not just about a beautifulliturgical service, it's about
(34:36):
living what we have celebratedright.
So the council fathers aretrying to reach a balance here,
a balance of what is real, butalso that the real is not just
the incarnational and the brokenaspect of humanity, but also
the fact that we have theindwelling of the spirit, and
(35:02):
that is the truth as well.
And it goes back to the wholeidea of the earthen vessel right
.
So this is part of the earthenvessel kind of understanding of
the essence of the church or themystery of the church.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, the error that people think that, like when I
sin, I just hurt myself and whenI'm healed I'm healed.
Instead, I think moreappropriately, it's when I sin I
hurt the church, yes, thecommunity, the entire community.
(35:39):
Yeah, and that's part of whythere's that public aspect of
reconciliation right.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah, it affects reconciliation, right.
Yeah, it affects everyone,right.
So before the council, severaldecades before the council, one
of my favorite theologians,pneumatologist on the Holy
Spirit, yves Congar, frenchDominican In the decades prior
(36:05):
to the Second Vaticanaticancouncil, is congar, criticized
the church, criticizedecclesiology due to its lack of
attention due to the holy spirit.
He said that the holy spiritwas the forgotten person of the
trinity.
So this reluctance to addressthe role of the Holy Spirit in
(36:28):
the theology of the church wasdue to a hesitancy based upon a
medieval reluctance, mostlybecause of the heretical sex
appealing sex S-E-C-T-S.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Right it's such a hard word to say S-E-C-T-S.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
right, it's such a hard word to say Heretical sects
appealing to the charismaticwork of the Holy Spirit.
Right and because of thoseheretical movements the church
kind of backed away from youknow, nematology or, uh, uh, the
(37:07):
theology of the Holy spirit inthe church, right?
Just like we talked the otherday about typology, uh, the
church kind of backed away fromtypology because the Protestants
were kind of abusing andoverusing, right?
Same thing happened here, um.
So modern ecclesiology beganthe recovery of the role of the
Holy Spirit in a theology ofchurch, as exemplified by the
(37:33):
incarnational andpneumatological encyclical of
Pope Pius XII Mystici corporis12th, mistici Corporis.
So I remember Pius XII was alsothe one that wrote the Divino
Afflantu Spiriti, which openedup biblical studies as well.
(37:54):
So Pope Pius XII is veryimportant.
I think he's overlooked,unfortunately.
Yeah, so one of the mostimportant and frequently
overlooked contributions of thesecond vatican council lay in
(38:14):
the decisive steps the counciltook toward recovering the role
of the holy spirit in the lifeof the church.
It recovered the augustinianview of the Holy Spirit as the
soul of the church, right, andso of course a lot of people are
(38:36):
going to like, oh, yeah, thecharismatic movement, yeah, the
charismatic movement, yes,praise God that the Holy Spirit
was allowed some freedom there.
But the whole idea of theSpirit's active participation in
the life and the soul of theBride of Christ, right, and this
(38:58):
is a very importantconsideration.
So then, after after paul pope,pius, the 12th mystici corporis
and eve's congar's work, therewas a growing sensitivity to the
study of the holy spirit, orpneumatology, and it's seen
throughout all of the documentsof the second vatican council.
(39:22):
They're always, you know,referring to the trinitarian
aspect of God, right, so this isa very important thing.
So this pneumatology can beseen, especially in the document
De Verbum on the Incarnation,god's Word, right, we talked a
little about.
God reveals Himself, so DeVerbum.
God reveals himself, so DeiVerbo.
(39:45):
And in the council'sconsideration of the Holy Spirit
, the Holy Spirit's role insustaining the communion of the
church, the theology of charismand in charismatic character of
religious life.
So, going back to that, that'sone of the things the gift of
religious life, the gift ofreligious leaders.
(40:07):
So, for example, you have thegift of hierarchy but you also
have the gift of charism, or soyou have hierarchy and charism
as gifts of the church to thechurch.
So you have the hierarchy andyou have religious right, church
.
So you have the hierarchy andyou have religious right.
And so that's why religious arealways kind of a hybrid, right,
(40:33):
they're kind of on the edge,right.
It's sort of like they're nothierarchy and they're not just
regular lay folks.
They're consecrated, they makeup their own category, right
yeah, so that's part of thatwhole idea of the charismatic
character.
So it is then through the workof the Holy Spirit that we come
(40:57):
to faith and are capable ofaccepting the kerygma, the
declaration of who Jesus isright.
The evangelization kerygma, thedeclaration of who Jesus is
right.
The evangelization so it isthrough the work of the Holy
Spirit that we are capable ofreceiving God's word.
The kerygma, which in turnleads the neophyte, or the one
(41:17):
that's learning, or the childthat's learning, to become a
disciple.
So he leads this person into aspiritual communion with other
believers, right.
And then so the spiritualcommunion with other believers,
this family that I belong to, Idesire to belong to this family
(41:40):
of faith.
Then that leads to the serviceof those within the community I
want to serve my community andthen also that leads us the
service of those within thecommunity I want to serve my
community and then also thatleads us to service outside of
the community.
Right.
And so in theology andspirituality they talk about
kerygma, koinonia and diakonia.
So kerygma is the proclamationof faith or coming to faith, the
(42:04):
koinonia is the service, andthen the diakonia is the service
to those outside of the body.
Right.
So those are kind of the threestages, that the Greek words, to
use, those three stages ofcoming to faith, coming to
(42:27):
communion and coming to service.
Pope John Paul II in hisapostolic exhortation on the
laity Christi, fidelis Laetitiae, affirmed the judgment of the
1985 Extraordinary Synod thatthe notion of communion was the
central and fundamental idea ofthe Second Vatican Council.
(42:50):
There's that word again Synod?
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Yeah, it just keeps popping up.
It's weird.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
It's not new, yeah, but it's interesting then that,
okay.
So how would people understandthis?
So Pope John Paul II is sayingthat the fundamental or central
idea that is being taught by theSecond Vatican Council is that
(43:25):
communion is the central andfundamental idea.
So communion is this belongingto one another, this
interdependence, this service toone another in the body and
service outside of the body.
Right, that's part of the wholeidea of the notion of communion
.
It's not just receiving thebody and blood and soul and
(43:48):
divinity of Jesus Christ, it isalso the communion with those
around me, as we all receive thesame body, blood, soul and
divinity of Jesus Christ, right?
So this is very important andthis is again, this is part of
the mystery of the church.
So, again, this is kind of whatdefines us right.
(44:11):
And another thing that happenedin the Second Vatican Council
too, was that the idea of church.
It's called ecclesiology, orhow church functions in the idea
of sacraments and redemption.
So there was a renewal in thestudy of church, what makes
church, what makes ecclesiaright.
So one aspect of renewal can betraced to a 19th century
(44:35):
development In the 19th century,and this is someone I wish I
could just study some more.
I already have too many books.
But if I could get more books,it'd be on this dude, johan Adam
Mohler.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Yeah, I recognize that name.
You've said his name a handfulof times.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
So, under the influence of romantic idealism,
in the University of Tübingen headvanced an understanding of
the church as the continuationof the incarnation of Christ in
human history.
That is a huge statement thatwe church, mystical body of
(45:16):
Christ.
This is where we get themystical body of Christ right,
that we are a continuation ofChrist's incarnation in human
history.
We are a continuation of hispresence in the world.
So Moeller's genius was toconsider the church not simply
as the bearer of the mystery offaith, but as itself an aspect
(45:38):
of this mystery.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Yeah, and that man that makes so much sense too,
because Jesus tells the apostles, if those who receive you
receive me, right.
So I absolutely see where he'sgoing.
And something else that kind ofstrikes me in all of this,
especially where the HolySpirit's role is in the
(46:05):
sustaining of the community ofchurch and as we're talking
about our brokenness and allthis kind of stuff and our
growth as well, as you're saying, like the neophyte learns and
then slowly starts to develop,learns and then slowly starts to
(46:29):
develop, so this thing thatkeeps happening, and I've never
really thought about this before, so excuse me while I try to
articulate it.
So you and I are going to dieand someone else is going to
replace us and they're going tohave to go on the same kind of
faith journey as you and I do,where we start out fresh and we
learn and our response to Godwill always be flawed.
(46:54):
Somehow it's just the way it'sgoing to be, right, right, and
His response of grace to ourflawed nature is such that calls
us deeper into relationships.
So we try again and we tryagain and we keep getting better
and we keep getting better, butthen we're going to die, right,
and the next dude's going to dothe same thing, right, right,
(47:14):
and so with that, jesus isobviously flawless.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
And the church as the spotless bride is obviously
flawless and the church as thespotless bride is obviously
flawless.
And so all of this makes methink about how it's a logical
necessity that the church isinfallible.
Yes, because I'm not fallible,or I'm sorry, I'm not infallible
(47:41):
, I'm very fallible.
Bertha here is fallible, you'refallible, everyone's fallible.
Buttha, here is fallible,you're fallible, everyone's
fallible.
But the church can't be.
And if the church is acontinuation of Jesus'
incarnation because whoeverreceives the apostles receives
Jesus well, the apostles arefallible, yes, so there's got to
be something here, and it hasto be the Holy Spirit that is
(48:02):
sustaining that communion andkeeping things going.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
And so then we have to writethis down.
We can talk about the Petrineoffice and the infallibility.
That's what it's based on.
It's based upon the presence ofthe Holy Spirit, the keys that
are given to Peter the Petrineoffice.
It's not necessarily the personof the Pope who is sitting in
(48:35):
that particular cathedra rightnow, but it is the office of
Peter.
It is the Petrine office, yeah.
And that particular individualhappens to be the vehicle
through which that particularoffice functions in the world
today, right?
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Yeah, well, and that's exactly the same, and
this is why, yeah, we've got totalk about this now, because
it's exactly the same for theChurch.
The Church is the vehicle thatthe Holy Spirit is moving
through, and it's completelyflawed.
As we said in the last episode,we've been trying to mess this
up for 2,000 years.
We can't kill this thing.
It's so exciting.
(49:14):
It just gets me all amped upWhenever the little light bulbs
turn on and the dots connect andstuff.
I'm so happy, it's good, butwe've been going for a while, so
, um, let's go ahead, let's wrapthis one up and we'll continue
the next time with the primacyof christ, because that's the
(49:35):
next chapter.
Oh, this is great.
Okay, I love this stuff.
Thank you, love it, thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
We're just nerds, that's all.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
It's okay yeah, hopefully someone else loves it
too.
Okay, all right, father, I willsee you next time.
Everyone who joined us, thankyou for joining us.
Please share the podcast withothers.
It really would make adifference if everyone could
take the time to share us withone person that you know and
just kind of help spread theword yes.
Otherwise, thank you.
(50:03):
We will keep praying for us.
We're going to pray for y'all.
Thank you.
We'll see you next time.
God bless, bye.
Welcome to our podcast friends.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you like our podcast andwant to support us, please
subscribe or follow us, andplease don't forget to click the
notification bell so you willbe notified when new episodes
release.
Thank you and God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me and myfriend, the friar Father Stephen
Sanchez, a Discalced CarmelitePriest.
Good evening, father.
Good evening Good evening.
Are those more boxes in thebackground?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yes, more boxes.
I have more boxes still tobring.
So, oh my goodness, little bylittle the majority of my stuff
is here.
Now I've got a few things leftstill to bring, some kitchen
stuff that I use, right so formy cooking, baking and all that
stuff.
So I'll store that away.
When I get bring it back down,but yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I was just gonna say I was just there, I just cleaned
up this mess.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I know, so I just brought this back and then the
last two weeks I've just beencrazy busy, so it's okay.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Speaking of baking, I've just been crazy busy.
It's okay.
Speaking of baking, yourpersimmon bread was so good.
Did you like it?
It was so good I had to, so Idid just like you said.
I cut off a nice thick pieceand I'd like toast it and then
(01:45):
smear butter on it and stufflike that.
But I made the mistake ofsharing some with Sophia and
then I was like fighting her forit.
So it just like the bread, thelittle loaf went like it was
like gone.
Did Betty get any?
Yeah, she did.
Everyone loved it, so it's likeit.
So is it like a banana breadbase, just with persimmons
(02:09):
instead?
Or like how did you?
I've never had persimmon breadbefore, but it reminded me of
banana bread it's a quick yeah,it's a quick bread recipe.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So basically it's.
I had some persimmons, I hadmade some.
We had a big bunch ofpersimmons last fall.
And so after they had ripened Isaid, well, I don't want them to
spoil.
So I scooped out all the fruitand put them in little Ziplocs
and threw them in the freezerand I said later I'll make some
(02:36):
later.
My sons in San Antonio, theones that got me sick I had
visited them the last timebefore I got sick.
I had been promising them foryears, like I got to bring you
some persimmon bread.
I got to bring you somepersimmon bread.
And so the last time I wasthere I'm tired of hearing about
(03:03):
this fantasy persimmon bread Isaid so I had to take some out
of the freezer.
Okay, baking in the summer is apain if it's hot.
So then I took them somepersimmon bread.
And then when I told you aboutthat, you said what I said yeah,
next time I'll make a couple ofloaves and I'll bring you a
loaf.
So that's what I did.
So it's really good, it's veryenjoyable.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, look how those rascals repaid your kindness.
Yeah, contaminating me Withgerms.
Oh man, I just got done.
While I was waiting for you, Iwas watching this guy was
cooking lamb chops in polentaand I was like ooh.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Ooh, that's good.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, food, food, food.
You know some food's for thebody, some food is for the soul.
Yes, and that's a terriblesegue into Vatican II teachings,
but we're going to try food forthe.
How would you say that in Latin?
(04:05):
If they had all the differentdecrees and the different, what
do you call each oneConstitution?
What would be the Latin forconstitution of food for the
soul?
How would you say that?
I?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
have no idea.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I have no idea.
I have no idea.
Well, I'm going to, because nowI'm thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
I'm not a.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Latinist.
I'm going to see what GoogleTranslate says From English to
Latin.
Latin Food for the soul.
Uh, is a c sent like the letterc?
(04:50):
Is it a hard like a k?
Speaker 1 (04:53):
it depends where it's , if it's followed by a vowel or
is it followed what's?
It what's what vowel is itfollowed by?
So it's c I b u s, so it's likeeither sibus or c-i-b-u-s c,
it'd be sibus sibus, so it'ssibus anime okay, anime is the
(05:14):
soul to feed the soul okayanyway, feed us, father, we're,
we're hungry so we began lastepisode, the last episode.
We began the last episode.
We began the history andintroduction into the Second
Vatican Council and thebeginning of Lumen Gentium.
Did the overview of the coredocuments and the three
(05:37):
categories of the otherdocuments that the rest of the
documents fell into?
Yeah, documents fell into, yeah, and we talked a little.
We ended on the difficulty ofgrasping the council's teachings
.
Um, that had to do with um, adifferent presentation, whereas
vatican one and trent were moreusing scholastic language, right
(06:00):
, and whereas the Second VaticanCouncil it was using a lot of
biblical references.
There was historicalexpositions, there's analyses of
contemporary issues, citationsof previous councils and all
that stuff, right.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Like the Pope.
Yeah, papal texts andeverything.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
All that right all that, so it's a much more
complete.
I would say completepresentation, right.
And also that we talked aboutthis.
You brought this up thisquestion of compromise, how
two-thirds majority, wassomething that Paul VI was
pushing for, which led to a lotof adjustments in the narrative
(06:39):
right, how it was presented.
And then, thirdly, the mostdifficult aspect of it is that
each document needs to be readin the context of all the
documents, and most peoplenowadays don't like to read, so
that makes it very difficult.
So anyway, those were some ofthe difficulties in grasping the
Council's teaching.
So now I want to go over justthe eight chapters, just the
(07:03):
titles of the eight chapters.
So it's the Dogmaticconstitution on the church, and
chapter one is on the mystery ofthe church.
I'm going to touch a little biton that.
Chapter two is on the people ofGod.
Chapter three is on thehierarchical structure, whereas
before in Trent, and I thinkeven in Vatican I, it began with
(07:28):
the hierarchical structure,especially Trent right.
So this is now chapter three,so it's not the very beginning
of the document.
Chapter four is on the laity,so I'm going to touch a little
bit on the laity, chapter four.
Chapter five is the universalcall to holiness, so I'll be
talking a little bit about thatChapter 6 is on religious,
(07:49):
chapter 7 is the pilgrim churchand chapter 8 is the Blessed
Virgin Mary, mother of God inthe mystery of Christ and the
church.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, and all of this this is why I love this stuff,
stuff.
All of this is just so.
Later we can finally talk aboutchapter eight yes, yeah he's
like let me tell you a story.
So I can tell you a story.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
It's, it's contextual everything builds on everything
else and so if you just go, ifyou just read the last chapter
of a novel, you go like, okay,I'm done, but you don't
understand the context of it,right?
So it's interesting that in thehistory of the development of
this particular constitution,the last two chapters chapter
(08:36):
seven on the pilgrim church andchapter eight on the Blessed
Virgin Mary they were not partof the original draft.
What was originally presentedwere 11 chapters and then the 11
chapters going through.
You know all the modificationsand, as we said earlier, the
(08:58):
give and take of dialogue withall the bishops, right, they
reduced 11 chapters to four inthe first revision.
That's a lot of.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah, might be a little harsh.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah, and then the four chapters became five and
then so that was in the secondrevision.
So then the chapter on Our Lady, chapter eight.
So then the chapter on Our Ladychapter 8, existed as a
separate draft, as a separatedocument, right, Not part of
(09:34):
Lumen Gentium and was not seenas part of the constitution of
the church.
And chapter 7 on the PilgrimChurch.
It's the reason that we have itin Lumen Gentium is because of
Pope John XXIII, hisintervention.
He wanted a chapter on thePilgrim Church, the fact that we
(09:57):
are continuously travelingtowards the celestial Jerusalem,
right.
I think part of it was tryingto get rid of the idea that the
church would get away from thatidea that we've arrived, we're
here, this is yeah, Right, sothat we still have work to do,
in other words, and so he wantedus to enter into that, into the
(10:21):
idea of being a pilgrim churchwhich is later confirmed by Paul
VI.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, I was just going to say,and I like that they tied Mary
into the church, kind of thing Ithink it's very fitting, and I
think we'll see that here, butwe'll also see it when we dig
into chapter 8, later episodes.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
So the prefect of the Congregation of Rites, in
conjunction with a smallcommission, prepared a text
concerning the Catholic doctrineon the veneration of the saints
as part of the Church'sself-explanation in the dogmatic
constitution.
So it's a very small part interms of the veneration of
(11:02):
saints, of the veneration ofsaints right.
And so this is then where, allof a sudden, mary, as the saint
then, is brought in instead of aseparate constitution, brought
into the believing body of thechurch as one of the first
redeemed right.
So let me read a quote herefrom Otto Simmelroth, chapter 7,
(11:26):
the Eschatological Nature ofthe Pilgrim Church.
Here he says, the introductionof this theme, pilgrim Church
and Our Lady, proved to be ofmajor service to the church in
her self-presentation, for itcalled attention to the fact
(11:47):
that an essential feature of thechurch, without which she
cannot be properly described,had not indeed been forgotten
but had not been explored hereschatological dynamism.
Remember that word?
Okay, so the wholeeschatological nature of the
(12:09):
church.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
What I remember is how hard it is to say for sure
no, but like to the end, like tothe the completion right when
Christ comes in glory right.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
The end point right.
So, continuing on with the quote, not only can and must it be
discussed along with herinstitutional aspect, so the
church as institute but alsothat there is a future towards
she is journeying towards rightor the completion when Christ
comes in glory.
(12:42):
If it is not, then the churchwill incorrectly be represented,
even as an institution.
Point or its journey towardsthis eschaton, the coming of
Christ and the fulfillment ofthe glory that Christ will give
(13:10):
to the Father, right with therestoration of all things.
It brings the veneration ofsaints out of the isolation in
which its significance could notbe properly grasped, showing it
to be a concrete embodiment ofthe Church's eschatological
nature.
And, conversely, thisdiscussion of the veneration of
(13:33):
saints ensures that theconciliar doctrine on the Church
must explicitly treat her vitaleschatological aspect.
So what he's saying is it'snecessary for us to remember
what we'd call the communion ofsaints, that we're connected to
those who have gone before us,marked in the sign of faith.
(13:54):
But not only is this acommunion that we're engaged in,
but that the whole purpose ofthis is again moving towards
holiness, moving towardscomplete consummation, communion
with Jesus Christ in the HolyTrinity right.
So that is where we're strivingfor and it's important then to
(14:20):
declare this or else then youcan fall into the idea of what
they used to call thetriumphalist church, where, like
we, we're basically heaven onearth already.
We've got our liturgy, we'vegot everything here, and so
we're, you know, we don't needanything else, and so I think
that was part of the idea ofmoving away from that type of
(14:41):
perception or even that type ofposturing in the world.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, I like how he says or yeah, I won't even try
and say the guy's name in thatquote I like how he says that
the way that we talk about thechurch's purpose, right, it's
eschatological dynamism.
We talk about the church'spurpose right, it's
eschatological dynamism, right?
Like, if you don't do thatright, then you can't even talk
about the institutional part ofthe church, right?
Correct, because you just don'tunderstand it, correct, correct
(15:14):
.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Correct.
So I mean the idea of Peterreceiving the keys of the
kingdom is not to establish thekingdom on earth, but that the
church on earth is preparingitself to journey towards its
final realization, which is thecelestial Jerusalem, the wedding
banquet of the Lamb, whicheverways you want to verbalize that
(15:38):
right.
Yeah verbalize that right.
Yeah, I would like to payspecial attention on chapters
one, which is the mystery of thechurch, on chapter four, which
is the laity, chapter five, onthe universal call to holiness,
(16:00):
so we can finally get to chaptereight on the Blessed Virgin
Mary.
Okay, so a little bit onchapter 1, no-transcript, and
this is where we get the titleLumen Gentium Christ is the
light of nations.
Because this is so, this sacredsynod, gathered together in the
(16:26):
Holy Spirit, eagerly desires,by proclaiming the gospel to
every creature, to bring thelight of Christ to all men or to
all, a light brightly visibleon the countenance of the Church
.
Since the Church is in Christlike a sacrament or as a sign
(16:47):
and instrument both of a veryclosely knit union with God and
the unity of the whole humanrace, it desires now to unfold
more fully to the faithful ofthe Church and to the whole
world its own inner nature anduniversal mission.
This it intends to do followingfaithfully the teaching of
(17:13):
previous councils, thepresent-day conditions of the
world.
Okay, the reason I'm quotingthis number one is what the
(17:36):
conciliar fathers want to do isto give an exposition of the
church's own inner nature andits mission to the world.
So this is the purpose of this.
The conciliar fathers, in thisdogmatic constitution, then, are
(17:59):
attempting to verbalize, giveexpression to the church's own
self-understanding and the dualrole that we have as church, the
dual role that is both the bodyof Christ and the bride of
Christ and, as bride and body,the mission that the church has
(18:25):
received from God through Christfor the salvation of all.
So already this is a verydifficult thing to try to
verbalize, that is, that we arethe body of Christ and we are
also the bride of Christ, andthe reason that is goes back to
(18:47):
even the nature of Jesus as trueGod and true man, god and true
man.
So we are both the body ofChrist and the bride of Christ
in our union.
That is exemplified and modeledfor us in the incarnation of
the word itself and taking onour humanity.
So this is a very deep andexistential understanding of
(19:14):
itself that it's going to try toexplain.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Right, yeah, struck me as I was reading through your
notes was how often I hearpeople argue about what is the
(19:43):
church and it seems people tendto a lot of times take the
position of it's.
It's just this mystical kind ofinvisible unity, that of all
christians all over the world,no matter what their
denomination, and all that kindof stuff.
(20:03):
So they'll pick like one campor the other, so they'll say
that, or they'll say it's likethe hierarchy or something, and
this is and, and what we'll getthrough is how.
It's way more complicated thanthat because, it's always the
both and kind of thing you know,yeah and so there's the fact I
was just giving a
Speaker 1 (20:22):
class to some catechists today on faith
formation team, right, andbasically I said, like you know,
we do all these studies and solike, for example, a doctor, he
has to study the skeleton, hehas to study the mus doctor, he
has to study the skeleton, hehas to study the musculature, he
has to study the cardiovascularsystem, he has to study the
nervous system, he has to studythe endocrine system, he has to
(20:47):
study all these differentsystems that make up one body.
And so part of the same thinghappens here in the church.
Sometimes we tend to dissectthe church and we forget that
it's a living organism.
It is breathing the breath ofthe Holy Spirit, so it's alive
(21:12):
and growing right and it's muchmore than just the local
community right, it is the localcommunity, but it's much more
than that.
Yeah, so a little bit on themystery of the church that this
number one talks about.
(21:32):
So the tradition, capital T.
We can go back and listen tothat episode too.
The tradition of the churchunderstands the word mystery to
mean an essential truth of thefaith that we cannot fully
comprehend, but that God hasgiven us signs towards a
comprehension of that truth orthat mystery.
(21:57):
St Paul applies this termmysterion to Christ in his
letter to the Colossians.
In Colossians, chapter 4, verse3, he says and pray for us also
(22:19):
, that God may open to us a doorfor the word.
There will always be somethingabout an ecclesial mystery that
escapes our comprehension.
That is the essence of God.
We can't fully comprehend him,or else he wouldn't be God.
Fully comprehend him, or elsehe wouldn't be God, and so our
inability to comprehend hisGodhead, his essence, is part of
(22:42):
the work of faith.
So God has chosen to revealhimself to us by breaking into
our human history in the mysteryof the incarnation, that is,
the person of Jesus Christ inhis sacred humanity.
So continuing on then, in thisidea of mystery and essential
(23:07):
truth, so in the mystery of thePassover of Christ, or the
Paschal mystery of Jesus Christ,the Passover of Christ or the
Paschal Mystery of Jesus Christ,god reveals the reconciliation
that Jesus wrought, or that Godwrought in Jesus, the
(23:27):
reconciliation between humanityand God, and that he himself has
worked in the life, death,resurrection of the God-man,
jesus Christ.
This is God's work and this ispart of the Paschal mystery,
right, this is part of essentialtruth of who God is right.
(23:47):
So, then, I have another quotehere, and this quote is from
Gilarditz, a book that he wroteon the Second Vatican Council.
The hope proclaimed by theprophets and the apostles is
(24:16):
realized, and we are now calledto be witnesses to God's
reconciling love before allpeoples.
So, okay, this mystery that wecelebrate, the Paschal mystery,
this part of mystery belongingto the larger church, this idea
of the council fathers aretrying to declare our
(24:38):
self-understanding right.
So our self-understanding isthat we, each one of us who are
part of the church through ourbaptism, each one of us, is now
called to be a witness of God'sreconciling love.
That is an essential aspect ofwho we are called to be.
(24:59):
So our sacraments are the waysin which we, god's people,
participate in the centralmystery of faith, this Passover,
the paschal mystery of JesusChrist, jesus handing himself
over, willingly to be sacrificed, to be a victim.
(25:22):
So this is an essentialunderstanding for us as well,
that this is part of who Jesusis in his willingness to give
himself up.
Continuing on with another quotefrom Galardes, so during the
Middle Ages, catholic theologybegan to apply the category of
(25:46):
mystery long understood to referto as to the mystical body of
Christ in the Eucharist, to themystical body of Christ that is
the Church.
So it expands that understandingof mystery, right, the medieval
(26:06):
authors understood that thefruit of participation in the
Eucharist is unity, thecommunion with God and with one
another that constitutes thevery foundation of church.
So, again, this is somethingthat needs to be continuously
brought up and we need to beconvicted of this is my
(26:31):
participation in the Eucharist,if I understand what I'm
participating in, if Iunderstand the Paschal mystery
that I am part of, and if Iunderstand the fact that I am
supposed to be an instrument anda sign of God's reconciling
love in the world, then therehas to be unity, right?
And so then the question wouldbe am I working towards unity
(26:56):
within my community?
Am I moving towards unity in mycommunity and as we look at the
humanity that is the church, wesee that there are parts that
are not right, and so there isthat human element, that parts
of the church or the body ofChrist that enter into division
(27:16):
over different things, whethergreat or small right, but that
there's this tendency at timesto work against unity instead of
towards unity.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah, so I was thinking about this the other
day when we went to mass on ohmy gosh, was it yesterday.
It's been a long week.
Yeah, it was literallyyesterday for the assumption,
but how quickly.
Okay, so, as your quotes aresaying that it's the
(27:50):
participation in the communionand, as you're saying, the
community, as you're saying, thecommunity, how that
participation is part of theEucharist, how, as the church,
we are actualizing andwitnessing to God's reconciling
(28:11):
love for everybody.
(28:32):
And so the two things that stoodout in my head was when you see
a very selfless act from oneperson to another, a very caring
act or a very selfless act tome at least I can't help but be
drawn into what Jesus' love musthave felt like in person, what
we're all called to, and whatwe're all called to because the
church is at its greatest, in myopinion, not when the
architecture is grand and themusic is great and the liturgy
is performed perfectly and allthat.
The church is greatest whensomebody sacrifices something to
(28:52):
help someone else Correct.
And how often this is thesecond thought we miss that,
even amongst our own, in our owncommunity, amongst ourselves,
because we go to church and thenwe're racing out to the parking
lot to try and get out.
You know before.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Everybody else does right.
Yeah, before you get caught upin the car jam.
Yeah, and so it's.
And I understand, and we do tooright, because it's been a long
day you're trying.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
you got other things you, before you get caught up in
the car jam.
Yeah, and I understand we dotoo, right, because it's been a
long day.
You got other things you got todo.
I get it.
But how do, like you're saying,how do we become so convicted
that we're willing to stop andgo?
Well, oh, my goodness, all thethings God has done in my life.
Can I just spare five minutesto help someone out?
(29:38):
Or can I not see an opportunityand go?
Oh, somebody should dosomething and instead go?
I'm going to do something rightnow, right, right.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And I think it's the continual call to conversion,
right?
I think that's something thatwe all need to continuously
challenge ourselves and feelconvicted, so okay.
So then, continuing on withthis, right?
So about, the foundation of thechurch is unity and communion
with God.
So this theology leftunaddressed, again, what we just
(30:12):
talked about the very humanface of the church.
And, as historicalcircumstances accumulated, the
beautiful theology of the MiddleAges was replaced by the very
real worries of wars, famines,droughts, right, remember,
during the Middle Ages, duringthe Protestant Revolution, the
(30:35):
religious wars, the famines, andyou have Catholic kings
fighting Catholic kings, and soall this is going on, right?
And so then the Protestantrebellion, or reformation,
claimed that the true church ofChrist was no longer visible.
Yep yep Right Because ofeverything right the human
(30:56):
element or the human nature ofthe church.
So then Cardinal Bellarmineargued against this Protestant
idea.
He argued against this and putforward the idea that the church
is a perfect society.
Right, the Church is a perfectsociety.
(31:27):
So Cardinal Bellarmine's viewlasted for several centuries,
that the Church is a perfectsociety.
The teaching of Vatican II isan effort to restore a balance
between understanding the innerspiritual dimensions of the
church and its concrete,historical and visible human
reality, trying to demonstrateor show the we say actualidad,
(31:55):
the real, the real situationright.
So this is what the council wastrying to do as well.
So, to accomplish this, thecouncil returns to the theology
implied in the biblical andpatristic understanding of
mysterion or mystery, whichgrounds a more incarnational
(32:18):
theology of the church and thesacraments.
It's not pie in the sky, right,it's very real, okay.
So that's one of the thingsthat the council was trying to
do, was trying to come to agreater balance of that truth.
So then, part of the mystery ofthe church is that the Holy
(32:45):
Spirit dwells in the church.
So, in number four of chapterone, the mystery of the church,
the Mystery of the Church,states the Spirit dwells in the
church and in the hearts of thefaithful, as in a temple, citing
(33:05):
Corinthians.
In them, he prays on theirbehalf and bears witness to the
fact that they are adopted sons,citing Galatians and Romans.
The church which the Spiritguides in the way of all truth,
citing John, and which heunified in communion and in
works of ministry.
(33:26):
He both equips and directs withhierarchical and charismatic
gifts and adorns with his fruits.
By the power of the gospel, hemakes the church keep the
freshness of youthUninterruptedly, he renews it
(33:51):
and leads it to perfect unionwith its spouse.
Yes, there is a very humanelement of the church, but it
should not forget the fact thatthe Holy Spirit dwells and that
(34:13):
the Holy Spirit is stillinspiring and pushing and moving
people towards God and thatcompletion of the mission, of
our own conversion, our ownchanging, our own transformation
, being considerate, being kind,being merciful, and that it's
not just about a beautifulliturgical service, it's about
(34:36):
living what we have celebratedright.
So the council fathers aretrying to reach a balance here,
a balance of what is real, butalso that the real is not just
the incarnational and the brokenaspect of humanity, but also
the fact that we have theindwelling of the spirit, and
(35:02):
that is the truth as well.
And it goes back to the wholeidea of the earthen vessel right
.
So this is part of the earthenvessel kind of understanding of
the essence of the church or themystery of the church.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, the error that people think that, like when I
sin, I just hurt myself and whenI'm healed I'm healed.
Instead, I think moreappropriately, it's when I sin I
hurt the church, yes, thecommunity, the entire community.
(35:39):
Yeah, and that's part of whythere's that public aspect of
reconciliation right.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah, it affects reconciliation, right.
Yeah, it affects everyone,right.
So before the council, severaldecades before the council, one
of my favorite theologians,pneumatologist on the Holy
Spirit, yves Congar, frenchDominican In the decades prior
(36:05):
to the Second Vaticanaticancouncil, is congar, criticized
the church, criticizedecclesiology due to its lack of
attention due to the holy spirit.
He said that the holy spiritwas the forgotten person of the
trinity.
So this reluctance to addressthe role of the Holy Spirit in
(36:28):
the theology of the church wasdue to a hesitancy based upon a
medieval reluctance, mostlybecause of the heretical sex
appealing sex S-E-C-T-S.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Right it's such a hard word to say S-E-C-T-S.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
right, it's such a hard word to say Heretical sects
appealing to the charismaticwork of the Holy Spirit.
Right and because of thoseheretical movements the church
kind of backed away from youknow, nematology or, uh, uh, the
(37:07):
theology of the Holy spirit inthe church, right?
Just like we talked the otherday about typology, uh, the
church kind of backed away fromtypology because the Protestants
were kind of abusing andoverusing, right?
Same thing happened here, um.
So modern ecclesiology beganthe recovery of the role of the
Holy Spirit in a theology ofchurch, as exemplified by the
(37:33):
incarnational andpneumatological encyclical of
Pope Pius XII Mystici corporis12th, mistici Corporis.
So I remember Pius XII was alsothe one that wrote the Divino
Afflantu Spiriti, which openedup biblical studies as well.
(37:54):
So Pope Pius XII is veryimportant.
I think he's overlooked,unfortunately.
Yeah, so one of the mostimportant and frequently
overlooked contributions of thesecond vatican council lay in
(38:14):
the decisive steps the counciltook toward recovering the role
of the holy spirit in the lifeof the church.
It recovered the augustinianview of the Holy Spirit as the
soul of the church, right, andso of course a lot of people are
(38:36):
going to like, oh, yeah, thecharismatic movement, yeah, the
charismatic movement, yes,praise God that the Holy Spirit
was allowed some freedom there.
But the whole idea of theSpirit's active participation in
the life and the soul of theBride of Christ, right, and this
(38:58):
is a very importantconsideration.
So then, after after paul pope,pius, the 12th mystici corporis
and eve's congar's work, therewas a growing sensitivity to the
study of the holy spirit, orpneumatology, and it's seen
throughout all of the documentsof the second vatican council.
(39:22):
They're always, you know,referring to the trinitarian
aspect of God, right, so this isa very important thing.
So this pneumatology can beseen, especially in the document
De Verbum on the Incarnation,god's Word, right, we talked a
little about.
God reveals Himself, so DeVerbum.
God reveals himself, so DeiVerbo.
(39:45):
And in the council'sconsideration of the Holy Spirit
, the Holy Spirit's role insustaining the communion of the
church, the theology of charismand in charismatic character of
religious life.
So, going back to that, that'sone of the things the gift of
religious life, the gift ofreligious leaders.
(40:07):
So, for example, you have thegift of hierarchy but you also
have the gift of charism, or soyou have hierarchy and charism
as gifts of the church to thechurch.
So you have the hierarchy andyou have religious right, church
.
So you have the hierarchy andyou have religious right.
And so that's why religious arealways kind of a hybrid, right,
(40:33):
they're kind of on the edge,right.
It's sort of like they're nothierarchy and they're not just
regular lay folks.
They're consecrated, they makeup their own category, right
yeah, so that's part of thatwhole idea of the charismatic
character.
So it is then through the workof the Holy Spirit that we come
(40:57):
to faith and are capable ofaccepting the kerygma, the
declaration of who Jesus isright.
The evangelization kerygma, thedeclaration of who Jesus is
right.
The evangelization so it isthrough the work of the Holy
Spirit that we are capable ofreceiving God's word.
The kerygma, which in turnleads the neophyte, or the one
(41:17):
that's learning, or the childthat's learning, to become a
disciple.
So he leads this person into aspiritual communion with other
believers, right.
And then so the spiritualcommunion with other believers,
this family that I belong to, Idesire to belong to this family
(41:40):
of faith.
Then that leads to the serviceof those within the community I
want to serve my community andthen also that leads us the
service of those within thecommunity I want to serve my
community and then also thatleads us to service outside of
the community.
Right.
And so in theology andspirituality they talk about
kerygma, koinonia and diakonia.
So kerygma is the proclamationof faith or coming to faith, the
(42:04):
koinonia is the service, andthen the diakonia is the service
to those outside of the body.
Right.
So those are kind of the threestages, that the Greek words, to
use, those three stages ofcoming to faith, coming to
(42:27):
communion and coming to service.
Pope John Paul II in hisapostolic exhortation on the
laity Christi, fidelis Laetitiae, affirmed the judgment of the
1985 Extraordinary Synod thatthe notion of communion was the
central and fundamental idea ofthe Second Vatican Council.
(42:50):
There's that word again Synod?
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Yeah, it just keeps popping up.
It's weird.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
It's not new, yeah, but it's interesting then that,
okay.
So how would people understandthis?
So Pope John Paul II is sayingthat the fundamental or central
idea that is being taught by theSecond Vatican Council is that
(43:25):
communion is the central andfundamental idea.
So communion is this belongingto one another, this
interdependence, this service toone another in the body and
service outside of the body.
Right, that's part of the wholeidea of the notion of communion
.
It's not just receiving thebody and blood and soul and
(43:48):
divinity of Jesus Christ, it isalso the communion with those
around me, as we all receive thesame body, blood, soul and
divinity of Jesus Christ, right?
So this is very important andthis is again, this is part of
the mystery of the church.
So, again, this is kind of whatdefines us right.
(44:11):
And another thing that happenedin the Second Vatican Council
too, was that the idea of church.
It's called ecclesiology, orhow church functions in the idea
of sacraments and redemption.
So there was a renewal in thestudy of church, what makes
church, what makes ecclesiaright.
So one aspect of renewal can betraced to a 19th century
(44:35):
development In the 19th century,and this is someone I wish I
could just study some more.
I already have too many books.
But if I could get more books,it'd be on this dude, johan Adam
Mohler.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Yeah, I recognize that name.
You've said his name a handfulof times.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
So, under the influence of romantic idealism,
in the University of Tübingen headvanced an understanding of
the church as the continuationof the incarnation of Christ in
human history.
That is a huge statement thatwe church, mystical body of
(45:16):
Christ.
This is where we get themystical body of Christ right,
that we are a continuation ofChrist's incarnation in human
history.
We are a continuation of hispresence in the world.
So Moeller's genius was toconsider the church not simply
as the bearer of the mystery offaith, but as itself an aspect
(45:38):
of this mystery.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Yeah, and that man that makes so much sense too,
because Jesus tells the apostles, if those who receive you
receive me, right.
So I absolutely see where he'sgoing.
And something else that kind ofstrikes me in all of this,
especially where the HolySpirit's role is in the
(46:05):
sustaining of the community ofchurch and as we're talking
about our brokenness and allthis kind of stuff and our
growth as well, as you're saying, like the neophyte learns and
then slowly starts to develop,learns and then slowly starts to
(46:29):
develop, so this thing thatkeeps happening, and I've never
really thought about this before, so excuse me while I try to
articulate it.
So you and I are going to dieand someone else is going to
replace us and they're going tohave to go on the same kind of
faith journey as you and I do,where we start out fresh and we
learn and our response to Godwill always be flawed.
(46:54):
Somehow it's just the way it'sgoing to be, right, right, and
His response of grace to ourflawed nature is such that calls
us deeper into relationships.
So we try again and we tryagain and we keep getting better
and we keep getting better, butthen we're going to die, right,
and the next dude's going to dothe same thing, right, right,
(47:14):
and so with that, jesus isobviously flawless.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
And the church as the spotless bride is obviously
flawless and the church as thespotless bride is obviously
flawless.
And so all of this makes methink about how it's a logical
necessity that the church isinfallible.
Yes, because I'm not fallible,or I'm sorry, I'm not infallible
(47:41):
, I'm very fallible.
Bertha here is fallible, you'refallible, everyone's fallible.
Buttha, here is fallible,you're fallible, everyone's
fallible.
But the church can't be.
And if the church is acontinuation of Jesus'
incarnation because whoeverreceives the apostles receives
Jesus well, the apostles arefallible, yes, so there's got to
be something here, and it hasto be the Holy Spirit that is
(48:02):
sustaining that communion andkeeping things going.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
And so then we have to writethis down.
We can talk about the Petrineoffice and the infallibility.
That's what it's based on.
It's based upon the presence ofthe Holy Spirit, the keys that
are given to Peter the Petrineoffice.
It's not necessarily the personof the Pope who is sitting in
(48:35):
that particular cathedra rightnow, but it is the office of
Peter.
It is the Petrine office, yeah.
And that particular individualhappens to be the vehicle
through which that particularoffice functions in the world
today, right?
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Yeah, well, and that's exactly the same, and
this is why, yeah, we've got totalk about this now, because
it's exactly the same for theChurch.
The Church is the vehicle thatthe Holy Spirit is moving
through, and it's completelyflawed.
As we said in the last episode,we've been trying to mess this
up for 2,000 years.
We can't kill this thing.
It's so exciting.
(49:14):
It just gets me all amped upWhenever the little light bulbs
turn on and the dots connect andstuff.
I'm so happy, it's good, butwe've been going for a while, so
, um, let's go ahead, let's wrapthis one up and we'll continue
the next time with the primacyof christ, because that's the
(49:35):
next chapter.
Oh, this is great.
Okay, I love this stuff.
Thank you, love it, thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
We're just nerds, that's all.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
It's okay yeah, hopefully someone else loves it
too.
Okay, all right, father, I willsee you next time.
Everyone who joined us, thankyou for joining us.
Please share the podcast withothers.
It really would make adifference if everyone could
take the time to share us withone person that you know and
just kind of help spread theword yes.
Otherwise, thank you.
(50:03):
We will keep praying for us.
We're going to pray for y'all.
Thank you.
We'll see you next time.
God bless, bye.
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