January 17, 2025 • 51 mins
Can understanding the role of Mary change your perspective on the Church? Join me and Father Stephen Sanchez as we navigate the profound teachings of Lumen Gentium, focusing on the essential yet often misunderstood role of Mary. We promise this exploration will deepen your appreciation of the Church's spiritual dimensions and unveil how integral Mary is to the narrative of salvation. You'll also hear updates on my mother's health journey, a personal testament to the enduring nature of faith and resilience.
We delve into Mary's pivotal role in salvation history and her unique position as a mediator. Father Stephen and I clarify the Catholic understanding of her mediation in harmony with Jesus, dismantling common misconceptions and underscoring the importance of proper catechesis. We explore Mary's enduring influence as a disciple and her eschatological significance, setting the stage for future discussions. We express heartfelt thanks for your support and prayers, and we're excited to continue our journey with you in upcoming episodes.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I'm Aida Lee and you're listening to my Friend
the Friar.
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me and myFriend the Friar, Father Stephen
Sanchez, a Discalced CarmelitePriest.
Good morning, Father.
Good morning, Good morning.
It has been so long.
It's been four months.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yeah, yeah, you want to give us an update on your mom
.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Yeah, what a four months.
Okay, so mom has it's been aroller coaster.
She is doing as well as she can, um, she has.
Uh, we moved her up to Dallasfor rehab and she finished, um,
(00:57):
her rehab, uh, stint up here andwe took her back home to corpus
, where we're from corpuschristi, texas, and right before
christmas.
So we did christmas and yearsand all that stuff, um, and she
still needs some rehab, right,she still needs help.
(01:20):
It's all.
It's what we're learning isthere is no, you're done, it's
just you just keep movingforward.
Right, one of the um, this ladythat we talked to at one
facility, she said, uh, there'sno going back, um, you just keep
moving forward and you changedirections as you need to and
you just keep moving forward.
So that's what we're doing.
(01:40):
So she's, we're working to gether into a place for more rehab
down home to see if she can getwell enough to be able to go
home.
So, as you heard in our intro,she was excited, she wanted to
(02:01):
do our introduction for us, andso we're going to be talking
about Mary finally.
Good golly, this is.
We knew this was going to be aminute because we're like, okay,
before we can talk about Mary,we have to talk about all these
other things.
So this thing makes sense.
(02:22):
Well, and it's not specificallyMary, it's Mary and Lumen
Gentium, right, right, we gottatell you a story, to be able to
tell you a story, kind of thing.
And then this happened with mom.
So, um, that story got drawnway, way out, um, so, yeah, so
so mom opened us up for, uh, usto talk about our mother, mother
(02:44):
Mary, yes, and so that's kindof where we're at Keep moving
forward, we'll see how she'sdoing, you know, and God is good
, yes, all the time, all right,so goodness, and this is going
to be a long one too.
(03:05):
Yeah, this is going to bemultiple episodes.
I'll probably let mom open allthese episodes just for funsies,
and I don't think we need torecap anybody on what we were
talking about, because they canjust go listen to the last
episode.
When you're online, it's just aclick away, not months and
months and months Before Lastepisode, for when you're online
(03:28):
it's just a click away, notmonths and months and months
Before we get started.
Though, I do want to say Iremembered right at the Epiphany
the other day, because we'rerecording this beginning-ish of
January.
So we had the Epiphany theother day and I went oh, we've
got a great episode on theEpiphany.
So I want to encourage everyonego see if you can find our
epiphany episode from a year orso ago and give it a listen.
(03:50):
It's really good.
And speaking of a year or so ago, do you realize, man, that
we've been doing this since 2022?
No, yeah, we've been doing thisfor a while.
So that's kind of I don't know.
That's just boggled my mind out.
When I logged into the podcasthosting website, it was like all
(04:13):
these statistics and stuff.
I was like 2022, holy cow,that's been a long time.
And we have and we are up to 56different countries for our
listeners, so that's really kindof cool.
We've got a lot from Europe now, so I think there must be some
(04:34):
kind of European podcastingplatform.
That's real popular, that wegot listed in, okay and so,
anyway, really cool Just kind ofsharing some stuff.
I have no idea who the latestcountry is, but you are out
there.
Thank you for listening.
Um and then, yeah, I think Ithink that's a good recap.
(04:56):
I think that's gonna get uscaught up before we ramble and
I'll let you just kick us off,okay.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
So we originally I wanted to talk on Mary, the
Blessed Mother, especially as itis defined for us, the
Mariology, a Christological,healthy Mariology that is in
Lumen Gentium, which is Chapter8.
But I said before I talk aboutChapter 8, we need to talk a
(05:29):
little bit about Lumen Gentiumitself.
So we did an episode on Chapter1, which is on the mystery of
the Church, we did something onChapter 4, which is on the laity
, something on Chapter 5, theuniversal call to holiness, on
the laity, something on chapterfive, the universal call to
holiness, and to get us ready tospeak about chapter eight, the
(05:49):
Blessed Virgin Mary, mother ofGod in the mystery of Christ and
the Church.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, because one of the things you're supposed to
not do is you're not supposed totake things out of context or
like pieces.
It's all a whole… it's allintegrated, it's all one
cohesive piece.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, that's one of the things that we talked about
when we first started talkingabout the conciliar documents is
that they're all supposed to beread in the context of each
other, so you need to read themall to understand them and to
have a context, and so that'swhy we started doing this,
started doing this, and so now,before we finally get to chapter
eight, which is the chapterI've, been wanting to talk about
(06:29):
.
Let me just give a briefoverview of chapter six, which
is on religious, and chapterseven, which is on the Pilgrim
Church.
So chapter six on religious.
So, within the context of thisdocument then, so within the
mystery of the church, which ischapter one of Lumen Gentium,
(06:50):
which was promulgated by PopePaul VI on November 21st 1964.
So, within the mystery of thechurch made up of the people of
God, which is chapter two on thepeople of God, the laity, which
is chapter four, formed andguided by the hierarchy, which
is chapter 2 on the people ofGod, the laity, which is chapter
4, formed and guided by thehierarchy, which is chapter 3,
along the way of the universalcall to holiness, which is
(07:13):
chapter 5, we have those laitywho discern that their response
to this call to holiness residesin their public profession of
the evangelical councils ofpoverty, chastity and obedience.
We refer to them as those inconsecrated life.
So let me just restate that,within the mystery of the Church
(07:36):
made up of the people of God,the laity, formed and guided by
the hierarchy along its way ofthe universal call to holiness,
there are those who have chosen,those laity who have chosen to
discern that their response tothis call to holiness resides in
their public profession of theevangelical councils of poverty,
(07:59):
chastity and obedience, thosethat we call those that are in
consecrated life.
I study in obedience, thosethat we call those that are in
consecrated life.
Okay, so chapter six, onreligious or consecrated life in
Lumen Gentium deals with thestructure of religious life
within and at the heart of thechurch's call to holiness.
There are many forms ofreligious life and chapter 6
(08:25):
deals with the duty of thechurch, in her hierarchy the
bishops, the ordinaries toensure a stable form of living
this life.
Religious life is seen andunderstood as a charism, a gift
of the Holy Spirit to the Church, to the people of God.
(08:47):
These individuals consecrateddeepen their baptismal
consecration by taking on eithervows of religious orders or
promises in religiouscongregations or institutions.
In religious congregations orinstitutions, the reason for the
existence of religious is thatof a public witness to the
(09:10):
eschaton that we all await, thatthere is a divine will that
matters more than my own will,that there is a treasure that is
enduring above and beyond anymaterial good imaginable, and
that the ultimate significantrelationship is that
relationship with God throughHis Christ.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
So this would be well , so you're, is this all?
How do I ask this religious?
A none would be religious.
Yes, okay, you are religious.
Yes, well, a religious sorry,obviously you're religious.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
A religious, yeah, okay, you are religious.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yes, well, a religious Sorry, obviously
you're religious, yeah, areligious, yeah, yeah, okay, so
does this also apply to diocesanpriests?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
No, they're not religious.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Okay, so this.
Yeah, those guys aren'treligious at all.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
They're not religious .
What the?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
heck yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
So this is just for Okay, so, yeah, that's why it
makes sense then, that it's likea charism like each monastery,
like for the monastery of ournuns, for the abbots of the
Benedictine monasteries, theyare the ordinaries of that house
, right?
They are the.
(10:45):
Each house is autonomous, okay.
We as friars, each house is notautonomous.
We belong to a province, right?
So all the houses areassociated together into one
ordinary, okay.
Now the reason I bring this upis that there is a
responsibility to maintain orderwithin religious life, and
we've seen recently in news thatthere are some religious
(11:10):
monasteries and associationsthat have strayed, that have
become rebellious and stuff, andbecause that's because there
hasn't been enough vigilanceover them, right?
Or they're refusing thevigilance that is required to be
taken by the ordinaries or thebishops.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
So that's why we need that, yeah, yeah and that makes
total sense.
So we've talked about that allthe time how easy it is to
wander off into left field, kindof.
Thing because you're justthinking your own thought and
you're kind of stuck in your ownhead and you've said many times
, like a sister and a nun arenot necessarily the same thing
(11:49):
right.
So would a group of lay sisterskind of thing, and I know nuns
are lay too, but anyway, arethey considered religious?
Yes, okay, are they?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
considered religious?
Yes, okay, see, the word nunrefers to Ammoniale, which is a
female monk, right.
So someone that lives in theenclosure, the visitandi nuns,
the discussed Carmelite nuns, orthe Carmelite nuns of the
ancient observance, theRedemptoristines, the
(12:25):
Trappistines, all those are nuns.
They live in a monastery,secluded in enclosure, right,
and the sisters are the sistersthat usually are in active
ministry, in teaching or inmissionary work or what.
They're sisters, they'rereligious, but sister is someone
(12:46):
who.
The term sister refers tosomeone who belongs to a
congregation or an institution.
The term nun belongs to afemale consecrated who belongs
to a monastic order.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, so it's not wrong to call a nun sister.
I'm sure they call each othersister.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah, they call each other sister, but you should not
call a sister nun.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, yeah.
And then I guess a greatexample of sisters are is it
Sisters of the Poor?
Mother Teresa's yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Missionaries of.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Charity yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, so, and that's just a good example, they're
always out working in thecommunity.
Significance of religious life.
So, as a religious who livesunder poverty, chastity and
obedience because the divinewill is more important than my
own will, because povertythere's a heavenly treasure that
is more important than anymaterial good, and that chastity
(13:57):
, because the relationship withGod is the most significant
relationship there is in ourlife as human persons.
Yeah, yeah.
So then chapter 7 on thePilgrim Church, speaks of this
eschatological difference orsignificance of religious life
and underlines or emphasizes thetemporary nature of what we
(14:21):
call the church militant or thechurch that is present in space
and time towards the heavenlyJerusalem, of what we call the
church militant or the churchthat is present in space and
time towards the heavenlyJerusalem.
So this is the fundamentalunderstanding of this chapter.
Chapter 7, is that we are apilgrim.
(14:51):
8, on the Blessed Mother, werenot part of the original schema
or the original draft that waspresented to the Council.
It was originally presentedwith 11 chapters and after the
first revision it was reduced tofour chapters, and then it
became five chapters in thesecond revision, and then
chapter 8 on Our Lady existed asa separate schema and was not
(15:15):
seen as part of the interventionof Pope St John XXIII, who
wanted this chapter on thePilgrim Church, and it was
confirmed by Paul VI.
So Cardinal La Rona, theprefect of the Congregation of
(15:36):
Rites, in conjunction with asmall commission, prepared a
text concerning the Catholicdoctrine of the veneration of
the saints as part of thechurch's self-explanation in the
dogmatic constitution of thechurch.
In other words, cardinal Aronawas saying this is very
important, that we emphasize theeschatological reality, or the
(15:59):
fact that we're headed towardsthe heavenly Jerusalem, because
that makes sense and thatexplains, then, our veneration
of saints, because it wouldn'tmake sense if we didn't keep
that in mind, that we're allheaded towards the heavenly
Jerusalem and the saints belongto what we used to call the
church triumphant, those thathave already gone over, crossed
(16:21):
over and are now enjoying, to adegree, the presence of God.
Right?
So let me read this quote fromLerona.
So the introduction of thistheme on the pilgrim church and
Our Lady proved to be of majorservice to the church in her
self-presentation, for it calledattention to the fact that an
(16:45):
essential feature of the Church,without which she cannot be
properly described, had notindeed been forgotten, but had
not been explored, and that isher eschatological dynamism.
Not only can and must it bediscussed along with her
institutional aspect.
(17:08):
If it is not discussed, thisscatological dynamism, if it is
not, then the Church willincorrectly be represented even
as an institution.
It brings the veneration ofsaints out of the isolation in
which its significance could notbe properly grasped, showing it
(17:29):
to be a concrete embodiment ofthe Church's eschatological
nature.
In other words, the venerationof saints is a concrete
embodiment of the eschatologicalnature of the Church and,
conversely, this discussion ofthe veneration of saints ensures
that the conciliar doctrine onthe Church must explicitly treat
(17:51):
her vital eschatological aspect.
Again, this is something thatis very important and, again,
this gives us an insight intothe veneration of Mary, mary as,
again, part of thateschatological reality, that
community that we belong to, thecommunion of saints that we
(18:13):
belong to, that is already onthe other side of death and is
those that are enjoying thepeace and the joy and grace of
Christ and those, for us asCatholics, those who are still
in the process of being purified, like we call the church
suffering, those souls that arein purgatory, that are already
(18:34):
saved but are undergoingpurgation before they enter into
the presence of of of God inhis Christ Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
You have any questions?
No, no, this is good.
I think I remember usdiscussing the part about the
eschatological, which you'resaying very well, by the way,
for being the morning, yeah,yeah yeah, yeah, I remember us
discussing that in one of theother episodes just how
important it is and it'ssomething worth really
(19:11):
considering.
And it struck me then and itstill does that if you don't
understand the church's role inheaven, then you can't
understand it as an organizationor institution as he says.
Right, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
So then, chapter 8, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother
of God in the mystery of Christ,and the Church.
Okay, towards the end of thefirst session of the Second
Vatican Council which thatsession was from October to
December of 62, which thatsession was from October to
(19:47):
December of 62, the questionsbegan to come up as to which of
the two schemas left to discussshould be discussed first, so
the one on the Church or the oneon the Blessed Virgin Mary.
With only a week left before thesession ended, it didn't seem
(20:09):
worthwhile to dive into thebulky draft, the schema on the
church, and the smaller schemaor draft on the Blessed Virgin
Mary would be less work andprobably be easier for a wider
acceptance from the bishops inattendance.
Another reason to consider it,the schema on the Blessed Mother
(20:33):
, it, was that some of theCouncil Fathers wanted to
publish it on December 8th, theclosing date of the First
Session, which is the Feast ofthe Immaculate Conception.
Nevertheless, through the workof the Holy Spirit, the Council
Fathers decided to begin thediscussion on the Church,
leaving more time for a morecritical examination of the
(20:55):
Mariology, of the Marian draftor the Marian schema.
Another point of contentionwithin the Council was on the
question of whether the Marianschema of the draft should be a
separate document entirely orshould be presented within the
draft or the schema on theChurch.
(21:17):
The question was which would bethe best catechetical
instrument to teach on Mary'srelation to the Church, as a
separate schema or as a part ofthe schema on the.
Church.
The Council Fathers voted onOctober 29, 1963, that the
(21:44):
Marian schema should be part ofthe schema on the Church.
Okay, the third point of thecontroversy surrounding these
documents concerned the titlethat was given to this chapter.
The original title of the draftread On the Blessed Virgin Mary
, mother of God and Mother ofMen, a very orthodox and
theologically sound title.
(22:05):
The title then was altered whenit was presented at the second
session.
The title then was altered whenit was presented at the second
session and the title was readas On the Blessed Virgin Mary,
mother of the Church.
It may have been that there wasa greater desire to connect
Mariology and Ecclesiology.
That's probably one of thereasons the majority of the
(22:27):
conciliar fathers voted againstthis title, wanting a more sound
theological terminology usedAgain because this is something
that was coming out to the world, and so they wanted to make
sure that they had theirtheology sound and understood
and did not have a chance to bemisunderstood by non-Catholics.
Yeah, so then, to refer to Maryas mother outside of her
(22:55):
relationship with Jesus is touse the term in an analogous way
.
By analogy, in order tomaintain the truth about Mary,
we must remember that she isalso the daughter of the Church,
since she is its most exaltedmember who now enjoys the
(23:16):
fulfillment of the promise ofthose on the road to redemption.
All of these considerationstouch upon the complex reality
of the Church, us as bride ofChrist and as intimately united
to her groom, christ right, andthat's part of the complex
reality of that relationship.
(23:36):
So Reformation theology, orProtestant theology, sees the
church as the sum of its parts,while Catholic theology sees the
church as preceding theindividual members, the church
as preceding the individualmembers.
The church exists already,right, as a people that is
called by God.
So, and that's interesting, Ithink sometimes too for
(23:59):
Protestants, is that for us asCatholics, in relationship to
Protestants, protestants see thechurch as the church in space
and time.
They don't really consider thecommunity beyond death.
Right, they don't pray for thedead because they don't believe
in that.
They pray for you in the spaceand time of the journey, but
(24:22):
they don't pray for the dead orask mercy for those who have you
know, forgiveness for those whohave died so that's an
interesting difference there aswell.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, nor would they ask the dead to pray for us
Right exactly Right, becausethere's no point, because
they're in some other kind oftime sphere.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, unlike any other of thechapters on the Constitution, on
the Church, lumen Gentium, itsconcluding Marian chapter is
divided into five sections, eachbringing a subtitle Doubtless,
because it turned out to betwice as long as they had
(25:00):
planned and there are threeintroductory articles to explain
why this happened.
So the introductory articlesare articles 52, 53, and 54.
, it seems like they had thesame problem.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
They're like let me tell you a story.
Well, hold on.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
I got to tell you a story.
To be able to tell you a story,yeah, okay.
So article 52.
Wishing in his supreme goodnessand wisdom to effect the
redemption of the world, whenthe fullness of time came, god
sent his Son, born of a woman,that we might receive the
(25:39):
adoption of sons, he, for us menand for our salvation, came
down from heaven and wasincarnate by the Holy Spirit
from the Virgin Mary.
This divine mystery ofsalvation is revealed to us and
continued in the church whichthe Lord established as his body
joined to Christ, the head, andin the unity of fellowship with
(26:04):
all his saints.
The faithful must, in firstplace, reverence the memory of
the glorious, ever-virgin Mary,mother of our God and Lord Jesus
Christ.
So, then, in Article 52, thoughI just read, the Christ, the
anointed one, the Messiah, wasborn of a woman, meaning that he
(26:26):
is true man and true God.
He is true man and true God InMary.
He truly came into our historyto deliver us from bondage of
the history of damnation andtherefore he engrafted his
church into history, the remnant, those that he called, those
(26:47):
that were elected, his church,which must be as Marian itself
as is the mystery of Christ andhis work, in other words,
referencing Mary here.
It means that just the part ofMary being the mother of Jesus,
the mother of God, true God andtrue man, is important for us,
because it underscores andunderlines the true humanity of
(27:10):
Christ.
That's one of the reasons whyMary is very important for us,
not just a devotion to Mary asmother of Jesus, but the fact
that it is through her that theWord has taken on our humanity,
and that's why it's veryimportant that we keep Mary
within our theology and with ourunderstanding of who Jesus is,
(27:32):
as true God and true man.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah, that's really interesting too, because the
church that's an interestingphrase His church, which must be
as Mary in itself, as is themystery of Christ and His work.
So Jesus and Mary are similarin the way that they and maybe
(28:06):
this is a bit of a stretch, sofeel free to correct my
heretical-ness- so, they'resimilar because Mary could fully
consent to God's invitation,right Like she wasn't encumbered
by sin, to be able to like Idon't know, do like you, or I
would do and screw it up right.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
And.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Jesus is the same way , even though he's fully man
without sin, he could fullyconsent to his own plan for
salvation, I guess you know kindof thing.
Or for himself as God, right,he could fully consent to that
own plan for salvation, I guessyou know kind of thing, or for
himself as God right.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Right, because you have to take into consideration
that Mary and Jesus were notunder the consequence of
original sin, which makes ourunderstanding or response to
God's plan kind of muted rightor kind of diluted in our
(28:56):
response.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, and so now thinking about the church,
that's an interesting kind ofthing to think about too,
because the church is made up ofpeople who are under the burden
of sin, right, but the churchhas this kind of unique quality
(29:17):
in that it can't fail, right?
So, similarly to how Marycouldn't fail or Jesus couldn't
fail, like the church can't faileven though it's made up of us,
yes, so that's an interestingkind of thing to chew on.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Because again you have to take into consideration
also the, the indolence of theHoly Spirit, and then the, the,
the guidance of the Holy Spiritand the work of the Holy Spirit.
So that's part of that too.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Okay.
So article 53, part of theintroduction.
So article 53 reads the VirginMary who, at the message of the
angel, received the word of Godin her heart and in her body and
gave life to the world, isacknowledged and honored as
(30:05):
being truly the mother of Godand mother of the Redeemer.
Truly the mother of God andmother of the Redeemer.
Redeemed Mary, redeemed byreason of the merits of her son
and united to him by a close andindissoluble tie.
She is endowed with the highoffice and dignity of being the
(30:27):
mother of the Son of God, bywhich account she is also the
beloved daughter of the Fatherand the temple of the Holy
Spirit.
Because of this gift of sublimegrace, she far surpasses all
creatures, both in heaven and onearth.
At the same time, however,because she belongs to the
(30:48):
offspring of Adam, she is onewith all those who are to be
saved.
She is the mother of themembers of Christ, having
cooperated by charity that thefaithful might be born in the
church, who are members of thathead, of that head, wherefore
(31:15):
she is hailed as preeminent andsingular member of the Church
and as its type, an excellentexemplar in faith and charity.
The Catholic Church, taught bythe Holy Spirit honors her with
filial affection and piety as amost beloved mother.
Honors her with filialaffection and piety as a most
beloved mother.
(31:37):
So then, the second introductoryarticle calls to mind that Mary
was chosen, above all others,to cooperate with God, the
Father's plan of salvation, andthis choice places her in a
position of great honor.
But this honor of election doesnot separate Mary from the rest
of the redeemed.
Mary is no less redeemed thanthe rest of us are.
(31:57):
She is a member of the church,super, eminently and uniquely
its member, indeed the archetypewho incomparably bodies forth
the nature and position of thechurch.
So, going back again, then, tothis idea of Mary and the fact
that it is through Mary thatChrist, or the second person of
(32:21):
the Trinity, the Word, takes onour humanity, the fact that Mary
is chosen by God is ofsignificance for us, because if
God has chosen her, then thatmeans that there's something in
Mary that we all, as believers,should recognize and honor and
respect God's choice of Mary.
(32:42):
And this is something that attimes I find confusing.
When our separated brethrenrefuse to honor Mary and go like
okay, but if God chose her, howis it that you don't honor
God's choice or God's election.
Again, not that they all becomedevoted to Mary, but there has
(33:05):
to be some sort of respect forGod's choice and it always
escapes me why they don't, whythey can't or they refuse to
give her respect or honor thatway.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah, I've heard somebody I don't remember who it
was, but somebody was sayinghow when you draw near to Jesus,
it should naturally draw younear to his parents too, right,
like it's kind of and vice versatoo.
So it's like if I really drawnear to Joseph and Mary, then
(33:41):
kind of a consequence of that isI'll draw nearer to their son
as well.
So just that respect thatyou're talking about, like
there's good things that comefrom it.
So, yeah, it is interesting howshe's just a footnote, right,
you know, right, right, right,so it's kind of confusing Right.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Okay, so then the third introductory article,
article number 54.
Wherefore this holy synod, andexpounding the doctrine on the
Church in which the DivineRedeemer works, salvation,
intends to describe withdiligence both the role of the
(34:20):
Blessed Virgin in the mystery ofthe Incarnate Word and the
mystical body, us, and theduties of redeemed mankind
toward the Mother of God, who isMother of Christ and Mother of
men, particularly of thefaithful.
It does not, however, have itin mind to give a complete
(34:42):
doctrine on Mary, nor does itwish to decide those questions
which the work of theologianshas not yet fully clarified,
those opinions.
There's still a developingMariology, there's still a
(35:14):
developing theology on the roleof Mary, and the Church is
saying we're not, the Council ofFathers are saying we're not
giving a definition, a fulldefinition of Mary, because
there are still these questions,as the Church continues to
reflect on this theology andwhat we call Mariology and
Mary's role in the Church of theRedeemed.
(35:42):
Okay, so the role of the BlessedVirgin in the economy of
salvation.
So Mary's role in our salvationhistory is presented in five
steps.
The Role of the Blessed Virginin the Economy of Salvation.
So Mary's role in our salvationhistory is presented in five
steps, and the first step thatis presented in this document is
in reference to Old Testamentprophecies.
(36:02):
So in Article 55, we're toldthat there's a gradual
preparation for the promisedChrist event, Since this is the
point of all Scripture, that is,the Christ event.
We examine Scripture from thestandpoint of the Christ event
and part of this Christ event isthe seed of Marian devotion.
(36:25):
Again, because it is throughMary that the Lord comes into
the world and that the Lordreceives our humanity, our human
nature.
So article number 55 reads asthe sacred scripture of both the
Old and the New Testament, aswell as ancient tradition, show
(36:48):
the role of the mother of theSavior in the economy of
salvation in an ever clearerlight and draw attention to it.
The books of the Old Testamentdescribe the history of
salvation by which the coming ofChrist into the world was
slowly prepared.
These earliest documents, asthey are read in the church and
(37:11):
are understood in the light of afurther and full revelation,
bring the figure of the woman,mother of the Redeemer, into a
gradually clearer light.
When it is looked at in thisway, she is already
prophetically foreshadowed inthe promise of victory over the
serpent which was given to ourfirst parents after their fall
(37:36):
into sin.
Likewise, she is the virgin whoshall conceive and bear a son
whose name will be calledEmmanuel.
She stands out among the poorand humble of the Lord who
confidently hope for and receivesalvation from him.
With her, the exalted daughterof Zion, and after a long
(37:59):
expectation of the promise, thetimes are fulfilled and the new
economy established when the Sonof God took a human nature from
her that he might in themysteries of his flesh, free man
from sin.
So then the document moves intoanother section, here presented
(38:26):
in this New Testament Mary'sobedience as it is reflected in
the New Testament.
In this New Testament, mary'sobedience as it is reflected in
the New Testament, in Article 56, christ is presented as the new
Adam and Mary as the new Eve.
Mary stands at the head of theredeemed human family, for what
(38:47):
she did was to receive, in faith, the mission and coming of the
Redeemer, to whose conceptionthe predestined mother had to
utter her consent before theIncarnation could take place, so
that the gift of the Fathermight arrive among men.
So Article 56 states, theFather of Mercies willed that
(39:13):
the Incarnation should bepreceded by the acceptance of
her, who was predestined to bethe mother of his son, so that,
just as a woman contributed todeath, so also a woman should
contribute to life.
That is true in outstandingfashion of the mother of Jesus,
(39:34):
who gave to the world him who islife itself and who renews all
things and who was enriched byGod with the gifts which befit
such a role.
It is no wonder, therefore,that the usage prevailed among
the fathers meaning the earlychurch fathers prevailed among
the fathers, whereby they calledthe mother of God, entirely
(39:56):
holy and free from all stain ofsin, as though fashioned by the
Holy Spirit and formed as a newcreature, adorned from the first
instant of her conception withthe radiance of an entirely
unique holiness.
The Virgin of Nazareth isgreeted, on God's command, by an
(40:17):
angel messenger as full ofgrace, and to the heavenly
messenger she replies Behold thehandmaid of the Lord, be done
unto me according to thy word.
Thus Mary, a daughter of Adamconsenting to the divine word,
(40:38):
became the mother of Jesus, theone and only mediator.
Embracing God's salvific willwith a full heart and impeded by
no sin, she devoted herselftotally, as a handmaid of the
Lord, to the person and work ofher Son, under him and with him,
by the grace of Almighty God,serving the mystery of
(41:00):
redemption.
Rightly, therefore, the HolyFathers see her as used by God,
not merely in a passive way, butas freely cooperating in the
work of human salvation throughfaith and obedience.
For, as St Irenaeus says, she,being obedient, became the cause
(41:23):
of salvation for herself andfor the whole human race.
Hence, not a few of the earlyfathers gladly assert in their
preaching the knot of Eve'sdisobedience was untied by
Mary's obedience At the VirginEve bound through her unbelief,
the Virgin Mary loosened by herfaith.
Comparing Mary with Eve, theycall her the mother of the
(41:48):
living.
And still more often they saydeath through Eve, life through
Mary.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
And that's a.
I like that little articleright there because it makes me
think of a bunch of things.
First of all, st Irenaeus, whosaid that being obedient became
the cause of salvation forherself and the whole human race
.
He was well alive, writingwhatever.
It was like 130 AD, so he'sreally old.
This is not like some medievaldevelopment.
(42:19):
This was understanding from thebeginning.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Kind of thing.
So that's I like that.
They reference that.
And then it also makes me thinkin the previous article too,
like talking about the OldTestament fulfillment or how
Mary is kind of prefigured andstuff like that, it used to
always kind of make me gigglethat Jesus would always call his
mom woman.
Yeah, because in my mind I justhear some you know guy going
(42:48):
woman, um, but now understandingthat it's a, it's like a title,
yes, kind of thing, um, andvery specifically like eve is
woman, right, so he's.
The title connects her all theway back to eve and without him
making that connection or usingthat title, it makes that
connection a lot more difficult,kind of thing.
(43:09):
So I think that's really cool,how she's prefigured in that way
.
And then when the angel says,hail Mary full of grace, it's
also cool, because when I wasyounger I used to think that he
(43:29):
was, he was just like announcingthis thing about her or maybe
in the moment he was declaringher full of grace so that she
could proceed or proceed, youknow, with the interaction,
proceed, you know with theinteraction.
But I've learned that thelanguage that's used, it's such
(43:54):
where he's declaring this thingthat already exists.
And so when he says you're fullof grace, she was full of grace
before he met her, not becausehe met her or because he talked
to her.
So I just think that's allreally, really interesting.
It it brings me to the wholeone and only mediator.
Oh, I know a lot of people getupset about mary being like
(44:20):
mediatrix or whatever.
Right, yes, could you, couldyou maybe unpack it a little bit
here, because I know like itmakes sense in the context of
this article, like I understandshe is that mediator between god
and man in that moment.
So maybe why has she continuedto be made mediator when we have
(44:43):
Jesus now?
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Well, there is a segment within the church that
like to emphasize this titleright.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
And it always kind of it does irk me, it does kind of
chafe me because, like youdon't understand.
I mean you think you're being adefender of Mary or whatever.
The honor of Mary, and no oneis violating the honor of our
Blessed Mothers, don't worryabout that, because there is
(45:15):
only one mediator and that isJesus Christ.
Now if Mary, within God'sdesign, has a part in that
mediatorship or shares in thatmediating role of Jesus, then
that's theologically sound,because Jesus has taken on our
(45:38):
humanity and because part of thedesign is that all of us are
called to participate in thesalvation and redemption not
only of ourselves but in therest of the world.
There is a degree ofmediatorship that we all have,
but it all comes from the onemediator.
I'm not a mediator betweenanyone else and Jesus or anyone
else and God.
That's Jesus himself.
(45:59):
There's only one mediator,jesus.
And so if there's anything thatI'm doing, I am doing it
because of the role of Jesus asmediator, and the same thing
applies to Mary.
Mary, because of her acceptanceof the Word and because of
being prepared to respond to theWord openly or God's design
(46:23):
right, then she then becomespart of that mediatorship
through giving Jesus herhumanity, but also in
participating in the role ofredemption, her own salvation
and the salvation of thosearound her, by leading I would
(46:43):
say leading a life ofdiscipleship.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Yeah, and to be clear , this article, it says Mary
became the mother of Jesus, whois, I'm adding, the one and only
mediator, right, and so this isa classic example of everything
about Mary points to Jesus.
Her role of mediation points toJesus.
Yes, her role of mediationpoints to Jesus, because he's
(47:11):
the mediator.
Your role, my role of mediation, points to Jesus.
The church, yes, the church'srole of mediation in the world
points to Jesus.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
It all comes from the one source, the one mediator,
and so sometimes when peoplewant to, you know, talk about
maria's mediatrix and redemptrix, I'm going.
Okay, fine, I don't have aproblem with that at all, as
long as you understand whatyou're saying, and sometimes
they don't yeah, well, and it's.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
It's easy for us to all.
We just get so excited aboutthe things that we love, right,
but this don't go wandering offinto left field kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Yeah, but you know again, and sometimes we
catholics are very guilty ofover emphasizing the role of
mary, which then turns off otherchristians because they go like
(48:13):
you're a bunch of maryworshipers.
You're like, yeah, there's acouple of mary worshipers up in
the catholic church there, butthere's, you know, it's a lot of
is out of love and devotion andwanting to be more Catholic,
but there's a lack of catechesisthere, right, and so it's a
(48:33):
matter of catechizing that theyunderstand what it is exactly
that the church teaches that thebishops decided to put to
include her in this with thechurch kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Because it frames it very nicely, going all the way
back to that quote from thebeginning, that if we don't
understand the dynamism, like wewon't understand the church's
role, Right.
So we have to properlyunderstand all of it together to
see so we don't wander off.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Right and part of the whole eschatological thing is
that Mary is part of you know,that church that is already with
Christ, and she is the first ofthe us, our sister, who is
enjoying that, and in her weourselves have that promise that
we're working towards achievingourselves.
(49:32):
So again, it points again tothe eschaton that it is only in
the end, when we all will beable to see God face-to-face and
be whatever it is that Godwants us to be.
When we see him face-to-face,we'll be as it is that God wants
us to be.
When we see him face to face,we'll be as he is.
But again, it points to thewhole fact that Mary's role is
also part of the eschaton.
(49:53):
It's not about Mary in the past, it's about Mary where she is
now as faithful disciple sittingwith the Lord, enjoying the
glory of the Lord, who is theLord of lords and king of kings
and only mediator and the onlysource of salvation.
And so it is in associationwith who Jesus is that Mary's
(50:15):
relevance and importance is seenand appreciated.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Yeah, amen, amen, amen.
Well, I think this is a goodplace to take a break and we can
finish this up in a subsequentepisode.
Yes, All right, Father.
Thank you for playing.
Thank you.
I missed you.
(50:41):
Yeah, I missed you too.
I missed doing this.
This is so much fun and it'sbeen too long.
I don't know how soon we'll getthe next one out.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
I think we should probably wait.
We'll see.
We've got enough of theserecorded, yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
So, yeah, we might release this one and then kind
of for everyone ask for yourpatience, yeah, as we continue.
Still got a lot going on.
Yeah, we got to get kind ofreorganized here moving forward.
So thanks for joining us,thanks for your prayers, father,
I love you, love you andeverybody.
We'll see you next time.
Bye, ms Rita, bye, bye.
I'm Aida Lee and you're listening to my Friend
the Friar.
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me and myFriend the Friar, Father Stephen
Sanchez, a Discalced CarmelitePriest.
Good morning, Father.
Good morning, Good morning.
It has been so long.
It's been four months.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yeah, yeah, you want to give us an update on your mom
.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Yeah, what a four months.
Okay, so mom has it's been aroller coaster.
She is doing as well as she can, um, she has.
Uh, we moved her up to Dallasfor rehab and she finished, um,
(00:57):
her rehab, uh, stint up here andwe took her back home to corpus
, where we're from corpuschristi, texas, and right before
christmas.
So we did christmas and yearsand all that stuff, um, and she
still needs some rehab, right,she still needs help.
(01:20):
It's all.
It's what we're learning isthere is no, you're done, it's
just you just keep movingforward.
Right, one of the um, this ladythat we talked to at one
facility, she said, uh, there'sno going back, um, you just keep
moving forward and you changedirections as you need to and
you just keep moving forward.
So that's what we're doing.
(01:40):
So she's, we're working to gether into a place for more rehab
down home to see if she can getwell enough to be able to go
home.
So, as you heard in our intro,she was excited, she wanted to
(02:01):
do our introduction for us, andso we're going to be talking
about Mary finally.
Good golly, this is.
We knew this was going to be aminute because we're like, okay,
before we can talk about Mary,we have to talk about all these
other things.
So this thing makes sense.
(02:22):
Well, and it's not specificallyMary, it's Mary and Lumen
Gentium, right, right, we gottatell you a story, to be able to
tell you a story, kind of thing.
And then this happened with mom.
So, um, that story got drawnway, way out, um, so, yeah, so
so mom opened us up for, uh, usto talk about our mother, mother
(02:44):
Mary, yes, and so that's kindof where we're at Keep moving
forward, we'll see how she'sdoing, you know, and God is good
, yes, all the time, all right,so goodness, and this is going
to be a long one too.
(03:05):
Yeah, this is going to bemultiple episodes.
I'll probably let mom open allthese episodes just for funsies,
and I don't think we need torecap anybody on what we were
talking about, because they canjust go listen to the last
episode.
When you're online, it's just aclick away, not months and
months and months Before Lastepisode, for when you're online
(03:28):
it's just a click away, notmonths and months and months
Before we get started.
Though, I do want to say Iremembered right at the Epiphany
the other day, because we'rerecording this beginning-ish of
January.
So we had the Epiphany theother day and I went oh, we've
got a great episode on theEpiphany.
So I want to encourage everyonego see if you can find our
epiphany episode from a year orso ago and give it a listen.
(03:50):
It's really good.
And speaking of a year or so ago, do you realize, man, that
we've been doing this since 2022?
No, yeah, we've been doing thisfor a while.
So that's kind of I don't know.
That's just boggled my mind out.
When I logged into the podcasthosting website, it was like all
(04:13):
these statistics and stuff.
I was like 2022, holy cow,that's been a long time.
And we have and we are up to 56different countries for our
listeners, so that's really kindof cool.
We've got a lot from Europe now, so I think there must be some
(04:34):
kind of European podcastingplatform.
That's real popular, that wegot listed in, okay and so,
anyway, really cool Just kind ofsharing some stuff.
I have no idea who the latestcountry is, but you are out
there.
Thank you for listening.
Um and then, yeah, I think Ithink that's a good recap.
(04:56):
I think that's gonna get uscaught up before we ramble and
I'll let you just kick us off,okay.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
So we originally I wanted to talk on Mary, the
Blessed Mother, especially as itis defined for us, the
Mariology, a Christological,healthy Mariology that is in
Lumen Gentium, which is Chapter8.
But I said before I talk aboutChapter 8, we need to talk a
(05:29):
little bit about Lumen Gentiumitself.
So we did an episode on Chapter1, which is on the mystery of
the Church, we did something onChapter 4, which is on the laity
, something on Chapter 5, theuniversal call to holiness, on
the laity, something on chapterfive, the universal call to
holiness, and to get us ready tospeak about chapter eight, the
(05:49):
Blessed Virgin Mary, mother ofGod in the mystery of Christ and
the Church.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, because one of the things you're supposed to
not do is you're not supposed totake things out of context or
like pieces.
It's all a whole… it's allintegrated, it's all one
cohesive piece.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, that's one of the things that we talked about
when we first started talkingabout the conciliar documents is
that they're all supposed to beread in the context of each
other, so you need to read themall to understand them and to
have a context, and so that'swhy we started doing this,
started doing this, and so now,before we finally get to chapter
eight, which is the chapterI've, been wanting to talk about
(06:29):
.
Let me just give a briefoverview of chapter six, which
is on religious, and chapterseven, which is on the Pilgrim
Church.
So chapter six on religious.
So, within the context of thisdocument then, so within the
mystery of the church, which ischapter one of Lumen Gentium,
(06:50):
which was promulgated by PopePaul VI on November 21st 1964.
So, within the mystery of thechurch made up of the people of
God, which is chapter two on thepeople of God, the laity, which
is chapter four, formed andguided by the hierarchy, which
is chapter 2 on the people ofGod, the laity, which is chapter
4, formed and guided by thehierarchy, which is chapter 3,
along the way of the universalcall to holiness, which is
(07:13):
chapter 5, we have those laitywho discern that their response
to this call to holiness residesin their public profession of
the evangelical councils ofpoverty, chastity and obedience.
We refer to them as those inconsecrated life.
So let me just restate that,within the mystery of the Church
(07:36):
made up of the people of God,the laity, formed and guided by
the hierarchy along its way ofthe universal call to holiness,
there are those who have chosen,those laity who have chosen to
discern that their response tothis call to holiness resides in
their public profession of theevangelical councils of poverty,
(07:59):
chastity and obedience, thosethat we call those that are in
consecrated life.
I study in obedience, thosethat we call those that are in
consecrated life.
Okay, so chapter six, onreligious or consecrated life in
Lumen Gentium deals with thestructure of religious life
within and at the heart of thechurch's call to holiness.
There are many forms ofreligious life and chapter 6
(08:25):
deals with the duty of thechurch, in her hierarchy the
bishops, the ordinaries toensure a stable form of living
this life.
Religious life is seen andunderstood as a charism, a gift
of the Holy Spirit to the Church, to the people of God.
(08:47):
These individuals consecrateddeepen their baptismal
consecration by taking on eithervows of religious orders or
promises in religiouscongregations or institutions.
In religious congregations orinstitutions, the reason for the
existence of religious is thatof a public witness to the
(09:10):
eschaton that we all await, thatthere is a divine will that
matters more than my own will,that there is a treasure that is
enduring above and beyond anymaterial good imaginable, and
that the ultimate significantrelationship is that
relationship with God throughHis Christ.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
So this would be well , so you're, is this all?
How do I ask this religious?
A none would be religious.
Yes, okay, you are religious.
Yes, well, a religious sorry,obviously you're religious.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
A religious, yeah, okay, you are religious.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yes, well, a religious Sorry, obviously
you're religious, yeah, areligious, yeah, yeah, okay, so
does this also apply to diocesanpriests?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
No, they're not religious.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Okay, so this.
Yeah, those guys aren'treligious at all.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
They're not religious .
What the?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
heck yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
So this is just for Okay, so, yeah, that's why it
makes sense then, that it's likea charism like each monastery,
like for the monastery of ournuns, for the abbots of the
Benedictine monasteries, theyare the ordinaries of that house
, right?
They are the.
(10:45):
Each house is autonomous, okay.
We as friars, each house is notautonomous.
We belong to a province, right?
So all the houses areassociated together into one
ordinary, okay.
Now the reason I bring this upis that there is a
responsibility to maintain orderwithin religious life, and
we've seen recently in news thatthere are some religious
(11:10):
monasteries and associationsthat have strayed, that have
become rebellious and stuff, andbecause that's because there
hasn't been enough vigilanceover them, right?
Or they're refusing thevigilance that is required to be
taken by the ordinaries or thebishops.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
So that's why we need that, yeah, yeah and that makes
total sense.
So we've talked about that allthe time how easy it is to
wander off into left field, kindof.
Thing because you're justthinking your own thought and
you're kind of stuck in your ownhead and you've said many times
, like a sister and a nun arenot necessarily the same thing
(11:49):
right.
So would a group of lay sisterskind of thing, and I know nuns
are lay too, but anyway, arethey considered religious?
Yes, okay, are they?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
considered religious?
Yes, okay, see, the word nunrefers to Ammoniale, which is a
female monk, right.
So someone that lives in theenclosure, the visitandi nuns,
the discussed Carmelite nuns, orthe Carmelite nuns of the
ancient observance, theRedemptoristines, the
(12:25):
Trappistines, all those are nuns.
They live in a monastery,secluded in enclosure, right,
and the sisters are the sistersthat usually are in active
ministry, in teaching or inmissionary work or what.
They're sisters, they'rereligious, but sister is someone
(12:46):
who.
The term sister refers tosomeone who belongs to a
congregation or an institution.
The term nun belongs to afemale consecrated who belongs
to a monastic order.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, so it's not wrong to call a nun sister.
I'm sure they call each othersister.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah, they call each other sister, but you should not
call a sister nun.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, yeah.
And then I guess a greatexample of sisters are is it
Sisters of the Poor?
Mother Teresa's yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Missionaries of.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Charity yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, so, and that's just a good example, they're
always out working in thecommunity.
Significance of religious life.
So, as a religious who livesunder poverty, chastity and
obedience because the divinewill is more important than my
own will, because povertythere's a heavenly treasure that
is more important than anymaterial good, and that chastity
(13:57):
, because the relationship withGod is the most significant
relationship there is in ourlife as human persons.
Yeah, yeah.
So then chapter 7 on thePilgrim Church, speaks of this
eschatological difference orsignificance of religious life
and underlines or emphasizes thetemporary nature of what we
(14:21):
call the church militant or thechurch that is present in space
and time towards the heavenlyJerusalem, of what we call the
church militant or the churchthat is present in space and
time towards the heavenlyJerusalem.
So this is the fundamentalunderstanding of this chapter.
Chapter 7, is that we are apilgrim.
(14:51):
8, on the Blessed Mother, werenot part of the original schema
or the original draft that waspresented to the Council.
It was originally presentedwith 11 chapters and after the
first revision it was reduced tofour chapters, and then it
became five chapters in thesecond revision, and then
chapter 8 on Our Lady existed asa separate schema and was not
(15:15):
seen as part of the interventionof Pope St John XXIII, who
wanted this chapter on thePilgrim Church, and it was
confirmed by Paul VI.
So Cardinal La Rona, theprefect of the Congregation of
(15:36):
Rites, in conjunction with asmall commission, prepared a
text concerning the Catholicdoctrine of the veneration of
the saints as part of thechurch's self-explanation in the
dogmatic constitution of thechurch.
In other words, cardinal Aronawas saying this is very
important, that we emphasize theeschatological reality, or the
(15:59):
fact that we're headed towardsthe heavenly Jerusalem, because
that makes sense and thatexplains, then, our veneration
of saints, because it wouldn'tmake sense if we didn't keep
that in mind, that we're allheaded towards the heavenly
Jerusalem and the saints belongto what we used to call the
church triumphant, those thathave already gone over, crossed
(16:21):
over and are now enjoying, to adegree, the presence of God.
Right?
So let me read this quote fromLerona.
So the introduction of thistheme on the pilgrim church and
Our Lady proved to be of majorservice to the church in her
self-presentation, for it calledattention to the fact that an
(16:45):
essential feature of the Church,without which she cannot be
properly described, had notindeed been forgotten, but had
not been explored, and that isher eschatological dynamism.
Not only can and must it bediscussed along with her
institutional aspect.
(17:08):
If it is not discussed, thisscatological dynamism, if it is
not, then the Church willincorrectly be represented even
as an institution.
It brings the veneration ofsaints out of the isolation in
which its significance could notbe properly grasped, showing it
(17:29):
to be a concrete embodiment ofthe Church's eschatological
nature.
In other words, the venerationof saints is a concrete
embodiment of the eschatologicalnature of the Church and,
conversely, this discussion ofthe veneration of saints ensures
that the conciliar doctrine onthe Church must explicitly treat
(17:51):
her vital eschatological aspect.
Again, this is something thatis very important and, again,
this gives us an insight intothe veneration of Mary, mary as,
again, part of thateschatological reality, that
community that we belong to, thecommunion of saints that we
(18:13):
belong to, that is already onthe other side of death and is
those that are enjoying thepeace and the joy and grace of
Christ and those, for us asCatholics, those who are still
in the process of being purified, like we call the church
suffering, those souls that arein purgatory, that are already
(18:34):
saved but are undergoingpurgation before they enter into
the presence of of of God inhis Christ Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
You have any questions?
No, no, this is good.
I think I remember usdiscussing the part about the
eschatological, which you'resaying very well, by the way,
for being the morning, yeah,yeah yeah, yeah, I remember us
discussing that in one of theother episodes just how
important it is and it'ssomething worth really
(19:11):
considering.
And it struck me then and itstill does that if you don't
understand the church's role inheaven, then you can't
understand it as an organizationor institution as he says.
Right, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
So then, chapter 8, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother
of God in the mystery of Christ,and the Church.
Okay, towards the end of thefirst session of the Second
Vatican Council which thatsession was from October to
December of 62, which thatsession was from October to
(19:47):
December of 62, the questionsbegan to come up as to which of
the two schemas left to discussshould be discussed first, so
the one on the Church or the oneon the Blessed Virgin Mary.
With only a week left before thesession ended, it didn't seem
(20:09):
worthwhile to dive into thebulky draft, the schema on the
church, and the smaller schemaor draft on the Blessed Virgin
Mary would be less work andprobably be easier for a wider
acceptance from the bishops inattendance.
Another reason to consider it,the schema on the Blessed Mother
(20:33):
, it, was that some of theCouncil Fathers wanted to
publish it on December 8th, theclosing date of the First
Session, which is the Feast ofthe Immaculate Conception.
Nevertheless, through the workof the Holy Spirit, the Council
Fathers decided to begin thediscussion on the Church,
leaving more time for a morecritical examination of the
(20:55):
Mariology, of the Marian draftor the Marian schema.
Another point of contentionwithin the Council was on the
question of whether the Marianschema of the draft should be a
separate document entirely orshould be presented within the
draft or the schema on theChurch.
(21:17):
The question was which would bethe best catechetical
instrument to teach on Mary'srelation to the Church, as a
separate schema or as a part ofthe schema on the.
Church.
The Council Fathers voted onOctober 29, 1963, that the
(21:44):
Marian schema should be part ofthe schema on the Church.
Okay, the third point of thecontroversy surrounding these
documents concerned the titlethat was given to this chapter.
The original title of the draftread On the Blessed Virgin Mary
, mother of God and Mother ofMen, a very orthodox and
theologically sound title.
(22:05):
The title then was altered whenit was presented at the second
session.
The title then was altered whenit was presented at the second
session and the title was readas On the Blessed Virgin Mary,
mother of the Church.
It may have been that there wasa greater desire to connect
Mariology and Ecclesiology.
That's probably one of thereasons the majority of the
(22:27):
conciliar fathers voted againstthis title, wanting a more sound
theological terminology usedAgain because this is something
that was coming out to the world, and so they wanted to make
sure that they had theirtheology sound and understood
and did not have a chance to bemisunderstood by non-Catholics.
Yeah, so then, to refer to Maryas mother outside of her
(22:55):
relationship with Jesus is touse the term in an analogous way
.
By analogy, in order tomaintain the truth about Mary,
we must remember that she isalso the daughter of the Church,
since she is its most exaltedmember who now enjoys the
(23:16):
fulfillment of the promise ofthose on the road to redemption.
All of these considerationstouch upon the complex reality
of the Church, us as bride ofChrist and as intimately united
to her groom, christ right, andthat's part of the complex
reality of that relationship.
(23:36):
So Reformation theology, orProtestant theology, sees the
church as the sum of its parts,while Catholic theology sees the
church as preceding theindividual members, the church
as preceding the individualmembers.
The church exists already,right, as a people that is
called by God.
So, and that's interesting, Ithink sometimes too for
(23:59):
Protestants, is that for us asCatholics, in relationship to
Protestants, protestants see thechurch as the church in space
and time.
They don't really consider thecommunity beyond death.
Right, they don't pray for thedead because they don't believe
in that.
They pray for you in the spaceand time of the journey, but
(24:22):
they don't pray for the dead orask mercy for those who have you
know, forgiveness for those whohave died so that's an
interesting difference there aswell.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, nor would they ask the dead to pray for us
Right exactly Right, becausethere's no point, because
they're in some other kind oftime sphere.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, unlike any other of thechapters on the Constitution, on
the Church, lumen Gentium, itsconcluding Marian chapter is
divided into five sections, eachbringing a subtitle Doubtless,
because it turned out to betwice as long as they had
(25:00):
planned and there are threeintroductory articles to explain
why this happened.
So the introductory articlesare articles 52, 53, and 54.
, it seems like they had thesame problem.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
They're like let me tell you a story.
Well, hold on.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
I got to tell you a story.
To be able to tell you a story,yeah, okay.
So article 52.
Wishing in his supreme goodnessand wisdom to effect the
redemption of the world, whenthe fullness of time came, god
sent his Son, born of a woman,that we might receive the
(25:39):
adoption of sons, he, for us menand for our salvation, came
down from heaven and wasincarnate by the Holy Spirit
from the Virgin Mary.
This divine mystery ofsalvation is revealed to us and
continued in the church whichthe Lord established as his body
joined to Christ, the head, andin the unity of fellowship with
(26:04):
all his saints.
The faithful must, in firstplace, reverence the memory of
the glorious, ever-virgin Mary,mother of our God and Lord Jesus
Christ.
So, then, in Article 52, thoughI just read, the Christ, the
anointed one, the Messiah, wasborn of a woman, meaning that he
(26:26):
is true man and true God.
He is true man and true God InMary.
He truly came into our historyto deliver us from bondage of
the history of damnation andtherefore he engrafted his
church into history, the remnant, those that he called, those
(26:47):
that were elected, his church,which must be as Marian itself
as is the mystery of Christ andhis work, in other words,
referencing Mary here.
It means that just the part ofMary being the mother of Jesus,
the mother of God, true God andtrue man, is important for us,
because it underscores andunderlines the true humanity of
(27:10):
Christ.
That's one of the reasons whyMary is very important for us,
not just a devotion to Mary asmother of Jesus, but the fact
that it is through her that theWord has taken on our humanity,
and that's why it's veryimportant that we keep Mary
within our theology and with ourunderstanding of who Jesus is,
(27:32):
as true God and true man.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah, that's really interesting too, because the
church that's an interestingphrase His church, which must be
as Mary in itself, as is themystery of Christ and His work.
So Jesus and Mary are similarin the way that they and maybe
(28:06):
this is a bit of a stretch, sofeel free to correct my
heretical-ness- so, they'resimilar because Mary could fully
consent to God's invitation,right Like she wasn't encumbered
by sin, to be able to like Idon't know, do like you, or I
would do and screw it up right.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
And.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Jesus is the same way , even though he's fully man
without sin, he could fullyconsent to his own plan for
salvation, I guess you know kindof thing.
Or for himself as God, right,he could fully consent to that
own plan for salvation, I guessyou know kind of thing, or for
himself as God right.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Right, because you have to take into consideration
that Mary and Jesus were notunder the consequence of
original sin, which makes ourunderstanding or response to
God's plan kind of muted rightor kind of diluted in our
(28:56):
response.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, and so now thinking about the church,
that's an interesting kind ofthing to think about too,
because the church is made up ofpeople who are under the burden
of sin, right, but the churchhas this kind of unique quality
(29:17):
in that it can't fail, right?
So, similarly to how Marycouldn't fail or Jesus couldn't
fail, like the church can't faileven though it's made up of us,
yes, so that's an interestingkind of thing to chew on.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Because again you have to take into consideration
also the, the indolence of theHoly Spirit, and then the, the,
the guidance of the Holy Spiritand the work of the Holy Spirit.
So that's part of that too.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Okay.
So article 53, part of theintroduction.
So article 53 reads the VirginMary who, at the message of the
angel, received the word of Godin her heart and in her body and
gave life to the world, isacknowledged and honored as
(30:05):
being truly the mother of Godand mother of the Redeemer.
Truly the mother of God andmother of the Redeemer.
Redeemed Mary, redeemed byreason of the merits of her son
and united to him by a close andindissoluble tie.
She is endowed with the highoffice and dignity of being the
(30:27):
mother of the Son of God, bywhich account she is also the
beloved daughter of the Fatherand the temple of the Holy
Spirit.
Because of this gift of sublimegrace, she far surpasses all
creatures, both in heaven and onearth.
At the same time, however,because she belongs to the
(30:48):
offspring of Adam, she is onewith all those who are to be
saved.
She is the mother of themembers of Christ, having
cooperated by charity that thefaithful might be born in the
church, who are members of thathead, of that head, wherefore
(31:15):
she is hailed as preeminent andsingular member of the Church
and as its type, an excellentexemplar in faith and charity.
The Catholic Church, taught bythe Holy Spirit honors her with
filial affection and piety as amost beloved mother.
Honors her with filialaffection and piety as a most
beloved mother.
(31:37):
So then, the second introductoryarticle calls to mind that Mary
was chosen, above all others,to cooperate with God, the
Father's plan of salvation, andthis choice places her in a
position of great honor.
But this honor of election doesnot separate Mary from the rest
of the redeemed.
Mary is no less redeemed thanthe rest of us are.
(31:57):
She is a member of the church,super, eminently and uniquely
its member, indeed the archetypewho incomparably bodies forth
the nature and position of thechurch.
So, going back again, then, tothis idea of Mary and the fact
that it is through Mary thatChrist, or the second person of
(32:21):
the Trinity, the Word, takes onour humanity, the fact that Mary
is chosen by God is ofsignificance for us, because if
God has chosen her, then thatmeans that there's something in
Mary that we all, as believers,should recognize and honor and
respect God's choice of Mary.
(32:42):
And this is something that attimes I find confusing.
When our separated brethrenrefuse to honor Mary and go like
okay, but if God chose her, howis it that you don't honor
God's choice or God's election.
Again, not that they all becomedevoted to Mary, but there has
(33:05):
to be some sort of respect forGod's choice and it always
escapes me why they don't, whythey can't or they refuse to
give her respect or honor thatway.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah, I've heard somebody I don't remember who it
was, but somebody was sayinghow when you draw near to Jesus,
it should naturally draw younear to his parents too, right,
like it's kind of and vice versatoo.
So it's like if I really drawnear to Joseph and Mary, then
(33:41):
kind of a consequence of that isI'll draw nearer to their son
as well.
So just that respect thatyou're talking about, like
there's good things that comefrom it.
So, yeah, it is interesting howshe's just a footnote, right,
you know, right, right, right,so it's kind of confusing Right.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Okay, so then the third introductory article,
article number 54.
Wherefore this holy synod, andexpounding the doctrine on the
Church in which the DivineRedeemer works, salvation,
intends to describe withdiligence both the role of the
(34:20):
Blessed Virgin in the mystery ofthe Incarnate Word and the
mystical body, us, and theduties of redeemed mankind
toward the Mother of God, who isMother of Christ and Mother of
men, particularly of thefaithful.
It does not, however, have itin mind to give a complete
(34:42):
doctrine on Mary, nor does itwish to decide those questions
which the work of theologianshas not yet fully clarified,
those opinions.
There's still a developingMariology, there's still a
(35:14):
developing theology on the roleof Mary, and the Church is
saying we're not, the Council ofFathers are saying we're not
giving a definition, a fulldefinition of Mary, because
there are still these questions,as the Church continues to
reflect on this theology andwhat we call Mariology and
Mary's role in the Church of theRedeemed.
(35:42):
Okay, so the role of the BlessedVirgin in the economy of
salvation.
So Mary's role in our salvationhistory is presented in five
steps.
The Role of the Blessed Virginin the Economy of Salvation.
So Mary's role in our salvationhistory is presented in five
steps, and the first step thatis presented in this document is
in reference to Old Testamentprophecies.
(36:02):
So in Article 55, we're toldthat there's a gradual
preparation for the promisedChrist event, Since this is the
point of all Scripture, that is,the Christ event.
We examine Scripture from thestandpoint of the Christ event
and part of this Christ event isthe seed of Marian devotion.
(36:25):
Again, because it is throughMary that the Lord comes into
the world and that the Lordreceives our humanity, our human
nature.
So article number 55 reads asthe sacred scripture of both the
Old and the New Testament, aswell as ancient tradition, show
(36:48):
the role of the mother of theSavior in the economy of
salvation in an ever clearerlight and draw attention to it.
The books of the Old Testamentdescribe the history of
salvation by which the coming ofChrist into the world was
slowly prepared.
These earliest documents, asthey are read in the church and
(37:11):
are understood in the light of afurther and full revelation,
bring the figure of the woman,mother of the Redeemer, into a
gradually clearer light.
When it is looked at in thisway, she is already
prophetically foreshadowed inthe promise of victory over the
serpent which was given to ourfirst parents after their fall
(37:36):
into sin.
Likewise, she is the virgin whoshall conceive and bear a son
whose name will be calledEmmanuel.
She stands out among the poorand humble of the Lord who
confidently hope for and receivesalvation from him.
With her, the exalted daughterof Zion, and after a long
(37:59):
expectation of the promise, thetimes are fulfilled and the new
economy established when the Sonof God took a human nature from
her that he might in themysteries of his flesh, free man
from sin.
So then the document moves intoanother section, here presented
(38:26):
in this New Testament Mary'sobedience as it is reflected in
the New Testament.
In this New Testament, mary'sobedience as it is reflected in
the New Testament, in Article 56, christ is presented as the new
Adam and Mary as the new Eve.
Mary stands at the head of theredeemed human family, for what
(38:47):
she did was to receive, in faith, the mission and coming of the
Redeemer, to whose conceptionthe predestined mother had to
utter her consent before theIncarnation could take place, so
that the gift of the Fathermight arrive among men.
So Article 56 states, theFather of Mercies willed that
(39:13):
the Incarnation should bepreceded by the acceptance of
her, who was predestined to bethe mother of his son, so that,
just as a woman contributed todeath, so also a woman should
contribute to life.
That is true in outstandingfashion of the mother of Jesus,
(39:34):
who gave to the world him who islife itself and who renews all
things and who was enriched byGod with the gifts which befit
such a role.
It is no wonder, therefore,that the usage prevailed among
the fathers meaning the earlychurch fathers prevailed among
the fathers, whereby they calledthe mother of God, entirely
(39:56):
holy and free from all stain ofsin, as though fashioned by the
Holy Spirit and formed as a newcreature, adorned from the first
instant of her conception withthe radiance of an entirely
unique holiness.
The Virgin of Nazareth isgreeted, on God's command, by an
(40:17):
angel messenger as full ofgrace, and to the heavenly
messenger she replies Behold thehandmaid of the Lord, be done
unto me according to thy word.
Thus Mary, a daughter of Adamconsenting to the divine word,
(40:38):
became the mother of Jesus, theone and only mediator.
Embracing God's salvific willwith a full heart and impeded by
no sin, she devoted herselftotally, as a handmaid of the
Lord, to the person and work ofher Son, under him and with him,
by the grace of Almighty God,serving the mystery of
(41:00):
redemption.
Rightly, therefore, the HolyFathers see her as used by God,
not merely in a passive way, butas freely cooperating in the
work of human salvation throughfaith and obedience.
For, as St Irenaeus says, she,being obedient, became the cause
(41:23):
of salvation for herself andfor the whole human race.
Hence, not a few of the earlyfathers gladly assert in their
preaching the knot of Eve'sdisobedience was untied by
Mary's obedience At the VirginEve bound through her unbelief,
the Virgin Mary loosened by herfaith.
Comparing Mary with Eve, theycall her the mother of the
(41:48):
living.
And still more often they saydeath through Eve, life through
Mary.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
And that's a.
I like that little articleright there because it makes me
think of a bunch of things.
First of all, st Irenaeus, whosaid that being obedient became
the cause of salvation forherself and the whole human race
.
He was well alive, writingwhatever.
It was like 130 AD, so he'sreally old.
This is not like some medievaldevelopment.
(42:19):
This was understanding from thebeginning.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Kind of thing.
So that's I like that.
They reference that.
And then it also makes me thinkin the previous article too,
like talking about the OldTestament fulfillment or how
Mary is kind of prefigured andstuff like that, it used to
always kind of make me gigglethat Jesus would always call his
mom woman.
Yeah, because in my mind I justhear some you know guy going
(42:48):
woman, um, but now understandingthat it's a, it's like a title,
yes, kind of thing, um, andvery specifically like eve is
woman, right, so he's.
The title connects her all theway back to eve and without him
making that connection or usingthat title, it makes that
connection a lot more difficult,kind of thing.
(43:09):
So I think that's really cool,how she's prefigured in that way
.
And then when the angel says,hail Mary full of grace, it's
also cool, because when I wasyounger I used to think that he
(43:29):
was, he was just like announcingthis thing about her or maybe
in the moment he was declaringher full of grace so that she
could proceed or proceed, youknow, with the interaction,
proceed, you know with theinteraction.
But I've learned that thelanguage that's used, it's such
(43:54):
where he's declaring this thingthat already exists.
And so when he says you're fullof grace, she was full of grace
before he met her, not becausehe met her or because he talked
to her.
So I just think that's allreally, really interesting.
It it brings me to the wholeone and only mediator.
Oh, I know a lot of people getupset about mary being like
(44:20):
mediatrix or whatever.
Right, yes, could you, couldyou maybe unpack it a little bit
here, because I know like itmakes sense in the context of
this article, like I understandshe is that mediator between god
and man in that moment.
So maybe why has she continuedto be made mediator when we have
(44:43):
Jesus now?
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Well, there is a segment within the church that
like to emphasize this titleright.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
And it always kind of it does irk me, it does kind of
chafe me because, like youdon't understand.
I mean you think you're being adefender of Mary or whatever.
The honor of Mary, and no oneis violating the honor of our
Blessed Mothers, don't worryabout that, because there is
(45:15):
only one mediator and that isJesus Christ.
Now if Mary, within God'sdesign, has a part in that
mediatorship or shares in thatmediating role of Jesus, then
that's theologically sound,because Jesus has taken on our
(45:38):
humanity and because part of thedesign is that all of us are
called to participate in thesalvation and redemption not
only of ourselves but in therest of the world.
There is a degree ofmediatorship that we all have,
but it all comes from the onemediator.
I'm not a mediator betweenanyone else and Jesus or anyone
else and God.
That's Jesus himself.
(45:59):
There's only one mediator,jesus.
And so if there's anything thatI'm doing, I am doing it
because of the role of Jesus asmediator, and the same thing
applies to Mary.
Mary, because of her acceptanceof the Word and because of
being prepared to respond to theWord openly or God's design
(46:23):
right, then she then becomespart of that mediatorship
through giving Jesus herhumanity, but also in
participating in the role ofredemption, her own salvation
and the salvation of thosearound her, by leading I would
(46:43):
say leading a life ofdiscipleship.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Yeah, and to be clear , this article, it says Mary
became the mother of Jesus, whois, I'm adding, the one and only
mediator, right, and so this isa classic example of everything
about Mary points to Jesus.
Her role of mediation points toJesus.
Yes, her role of mediationpoints to Jesus, because he's
(47:11):
the mediator.
Your role, my role of mediation, points to Jesus.
The church, yes, the church'srole of mediation in the world
points to Jesus.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
It all comes from the one source, the one mediator,
and so sometimes when peoplewant to, you know, talk about
maria's mediatrix and redemptrix, I'm going.
Okay, fine, I don't have aproblem with that at all, as
long as you understand whatyou're saying, and sometimes
they don't yeah, well, and it's.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
It's easy for us to all.
We just get so excited aboutthe things that we love, right,
but this don't go wandering offinto left field kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Yeah, but you know again, and sometimes we
catholics are very guilty ofover emphasizing the role of
mary, which then turns off otherchristians because they go like
(48:13):
you're a bunch of maryworshipers.
You're like, yeah, there's acouple of mary worshipers up in
the catholic church there, butthere's, you know, it's a lot of
is out of love and devotion andwanting to be more Catholic,
but there's a lack of catechesisthere, right, and so it's a
(48:33):
matter of catechizing that theyunderstand what it is exactly
that the church teaches that thebishops decided to put to
include her in this with thechurch kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Because it frames it very nicely, going all the way
back to that quote from thebeginning, that if we don't
understand the dynamism, like wewon't understand the church's
role, Right.
So we have to properlyunderstand all of it together to
see so we don't wander off.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Right and part of the whole eschatological thing is
that Mary is part of you know,that church that is already with
Christ, and she is the first ofthe us, our sister, who is
enjoying that, and in her weourselves have that promise that
we're working towards achievingourselves.
(49:32):
So again, it points again tothe eschaton that it is only in
the end, when we all will beable to see God face-to-face and
be whatever it is that Godwants us to be.
When we see him face-to-face,we'll be as it is that God wants
us to be.
When we see him face to face,we'll be as he is.
But again, it points to thewhole fact that Mary's role is
also part of the eschaton.
(49:53):
It's not about Mary in the past, it's about Mary where she is
now as faithful disciple sittingwith the Lord, enjoying the
glory of the Lord, who is theLord of lords and king of kings
and only mediator and the onlysource of salvation.
And so it is in associationwith who Jesus is that Mary's
(50:15):
relevance and importance is seenand appreciated.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Yeah, amen, amen, amen.
Well, I think this is a goodplace to take a break and we can
finish this up in a subsequentepisode.
Yes, All right, Father.
Thank you for playing.
Thank you.
I missed you.
(50:41):
Yeah, I missed you too.
I missed doing this.
This is so much fun and it'sbeen too long.
I don't know how soon we'll getthe next one out.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
I think we should probably wait.
We'll see.
We've got enough of theserecorded, yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
So, yeah, we might release this one and then kind
of for everyone ask for yourpatience, yeah, as we continue.
Still got a lot going on.
Yeah, we got to get kind ofreorganized here moving forward.
So thanks for joining us,thanks for your prayers, father,
I love you, love you andeverybody.
We'll see you next time.
Bye, ms Rita, bye, bye.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.