June 7, 2024 • 41 mins
Ever found yourself caught in a storm of confusion and wondering how to discern God’s voice amidst the chaos? In this episode, John and Father Stephen discuss navigating life's tumultuous moments with trust and faith. Drawing from Bishop Barron's insights on the story of Jonah, they explore how resisting God's will can lead to turmoil, symbolized by the storm Jonah faces. They illustrate the consequences of neglecting divine guidance and encourage perseverance, even when it feels overwhelming.
Difficulties don’t equate to sinfulness. Father Stephen and John discuss the importance of having reasonable and informed expectations in our spiritual journey, guided by religious practices and introspection. Join us to explore how embracing hardships and growing in detachment can lead to true freedom in Christ, bringing clarity and peace amidst life's chaos.
Word on Fire Show - Bishop Barron
Hearing the Voice of God
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to our podcast friends.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you like our podcast andwant to support us, please
subscribe or follow us, andplease don't forget to click the
notification bell so you willbe notified when new episodes
release.
Thank you and God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me and myfriend the friar Father Stephen
Sanchez, a disc house Carmelitepriest.
Good afternoon, father.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Good wet afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Oh, my goodness, it's a very rainy day today, all day
Since three in the morningtoday, all day Since three in
the morning.
Yeah, I've been up since fiveand it was raining, so we're
washing away.
The rain is just kind ofcoincidental to something we're
(00:58):
going to talk about here, justpure chance.
But before we get started,you've been busy.
Yes Are you doing okay, yeah,you getting the rest you need.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
No, but you know what can you do.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
What can you do?
What can you do when your lifeis so full and hectic and you
can't seem to catch a break?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Trusting God and keep going.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, let's talk about that, I guess.
So I saw this video once upon atime, no idea when I saw it.
To be honest, it was by BishopBarron and his video.
I guess I can put a link.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Maybe I can put a link yeah, you can do it in the
video.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
It's called Hearing the Voice of God and super
paraphrasing, from what I canremember is it had to do with
Jonah and he was saying that thestorm.
He was talking about the storm,right, because Jonah God says
(02:07):
hey, jonah, go preach to the.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Ninevites.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, and Jonah's like, nah, I'm out.
So he gets on a boat and goesin the complete opposite
direction, right, yeah.
And so then there's this big oldstorm no-transcript.
(02:46):
So like God sends the storm andthe storm, it symbolizes
Jonah's inability to escapeGod's will.
It's kind of what he wasgetting after, because Jonah's
(03:09):
obvious he's not following whatGod commanded him to do.
Right, he said go do this, hesaid no.
So thus the storm is theconsequence, the inability to
escape God, and he was kind ofplaying with a bunch of other
things.
I think, like the storm couldbe sinfulness or right, not
(03:32):
Sinfulness, as in not doingGod's will.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
I guess Resisting yeah, resisting yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
And so I thought it was really interesting and I was
contemplating this video andwhat Bishop Barron was exploring
, and there were some thingsthat some of the things I was
considering.
Some of us, like Jonah, we veryclearly hear God's voice in our
(04:06):
lives, so to speak.
We very clearly understand whatit is that God wants us to do
and, like Jonah, we just run.
I don't want to do this thing,I want to do it my way, right.
But some of us also, westruggle to hear God's voice
(04:37):
because we can't see past thestorm, whatever the storm might
be in our lives hardships,things, right, I don't know my
situation, my job, my family, mywhatever.
It's almost like we'redistracted, I guess, is how I
could say it a different way.
I am too maybe egotistical, I'mtoo wrapped up in my experience
(04:59):
and how this feels and whatthis is like, and so I can't see
past that to understand thatGod has a will and a desire for
me in my life.
And I guess the last thing thatit could be or that people might
experience with some of us, youknow, we just miss God's voice,
(05:19):
like we never heard God tobegin with, for some reason or
another, right God might besaying Father Stephen, I want
you to go do this, but you'rejust, I don't know.
You're not paying attention, Iguess, or you're unwilling to
pay attention, perhaps.
So the question I guess that Iremember him kind of posing to,
(05:42):
is if, instead, you don't resistthe voice of God.
What happens in our lives?
And I just, you know, I wasjust sitting with it and
thinking about it and I think Iwas in my backyard and our
little backyard is a total mess,like it's a nightmare right now
(06:05):
.
It is overgrown, there's weedseverywhere, the fence is falling
down.
I know, I know, but it kind ofbrought rise to this metaphor,
to kind of answer it in my mindwhat happens if you, if you
(06:27):
resist the voice of God?
And so I like to, I like togarden or farm is is like when I
was a little kid I wanted to bea farmer.
Right, I like growing stuff, Ilike the smell of dirt, I like
planting things and seeing themgrow and and all that.
It could very well be.
If I'm really honest, I mightlike the thought of it more than
(06:50):
I like actually doing it.
I don't know, maybe when I wasyounger I liked it a lot more
than I do now, because my backis always hurting.
It's like it's hard work, youknow digging and pulling weeds
and all that stuff.
So I'm just old now, so maybe Ilike the thought of it more
(07:11):
than I actually like doing it.
But the thing that I wascontemplating in response to
what happens when we resistGod's voice, god's will, what
happens if we don't resist God'svoice, god's will?
I'm looking at this littleflower bed we have in our
backyard and, like I said, it'sa nightmare.
(07:31):
There's like a dandeliongrowing that's almost as tall as
I am at this point and the kindof metaphor here is I know from
my gardening experience thatnature doesn't like bare soil.
If you were to pull all thegrass, pull the weeds, pull the
(07:52):
whatever and just leave baresoil like nature does not like
it, it will grow.
Whatever in the world it canget to grow, whether you like it
or not.
Right To cover it up, right?
So you get all these weeds andstuff, if you.
(08:14):
So I'm thinking about thisgarden and I'm thinking about
how it might symbolize our lives.
And if we this is kind of whatI came up with if we plant
things in the garden but wedon't care for it properly, it's
going to die.
(08:34):
Right?
If I try to force things togrow in the garden that aren't
right for the conditions,they're going to die.
If we don't cultivate thegarden at all and we just leave
(08:58):
it bare, god's going to allowanything to grow in the garden,
anything to grow in the garden.
But if we cooperate with God andwe plant what's right for the
conditions and we take propercare of the things we plant,
(09:19):
then the garden flourishes inthis little metaphor, right?
So I guess, like the weedscould be a parallel for the
storm, right?
That inescapability of God'swill.
He's going to do with thegarden as he pleases and you
know he'll allow whatever hewants to happen to happen.
And I can, you know.
(09:46):
It made me stop and wonder ifthe garden's full of weeds.
If your life is full of weeds,kind of like the storm, right,
does it show your life is fullof sin?
Or because God doesn't make sinin your life, right?
He's not.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
No, he doesn't.
No, he doesn't create sin, no.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It's not.
Yeah, god does not make sin,but he allows things.
So maybe the weedy garden is itlike a?
Does it show a lack of effortor a lack of cooperation?
Or what does it show when ourlives are full of difficulties
(10:37):
or whatever?
So I don't know.
Like I was, I kept thinkingabout it because, like you know,
some some gardens well like forfor me it's.
I guess something that I I thinkof is is I know that
(10:59):
expectations are are prettychallenging for me.
I heard somebody say onceexpectations are like
preconceived prejudices, right,like if you're going to go to
Six Flags or something, anamusement park, and you're like
this is gonna be the best dayever, and you get there and it's
(11:19):
not the best day ever.
Was the trip worthwhile?
Did you still have a good time,or is it ruined because you had
these expectations of somethingthat didn't come to be Right,
something less than yourexpectations.
So you're prejudiced againstanything that could be because
you're expecting something veryparticular, and I can't remember
(11:43):
where I got that from, butthat's always stuck with me.
And so then I think about thegarden.
We might have an expectation ofwhat the garden should be, what
our lives should be, and thatcould probably be problematic
(12:03):
because there's a bunch ofdifferent types of gardens,
right.
There's like rock gardens andcactus gardens and vegetable
gardens and whatever right,there's a bunch of different
types of gardens, right.
There's like rock gardens andcactus gardens and vegetable
gardens and whatever right,there's a bunch of different
types of gardens.
And so if you have anexpectation of something and
maybe you're not open to whatcould be right, and maybe that's
like we're not open to what Godwills for us because we're
(12:25):
looking for something veryspecific, it could stop us from
cooperating with God to worktowards, I don't know,
cultivating this garden.
So, anyway, all of that, all ofthat, all of that Thinking about
the storms and thinking aboutthe gardens and stuff, about the
storms and thinking about thegardens and stuff, kind of to
(12:47):
you, I want to know, like, whathappens?
What do you do when your lifeis I don't want to necessarily
say it's not going according toplan, but some people just have
really rough lives right Allthroughout the world.
(13:09):
There's all sorts of crazysituations out there and so,
like what, if somebody isstruggling because they're
trying to cooperate with God andit's there's no garden, it is
nothing, but weeds their entirelife, right?
And maybe this kind of goes tomartyrs, which is why I was
(13:29):
thinking about you.
Like, how do you well, becauseyou love the martyrs, right?
So like, how do you Like, howdo you well, because you love
the martyrs, right?
So like, how do you?
What would you say to somebodywho's just like Father, like my
life?
I don't know how to say it.
It sucks Like I can't.
Nothing ever goes right.
I try to cooperate with God, Itry and listen to God, I try and
do what he wants, but it's likeall he wants is for me to
(13:51):
suffer or struggle or whatever.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
What do you say to that?
Well, you've laid out many,many, many, many ideas in this
short section here.
One, getting back to BishopBarron's I haven't seen the
YouTube video that you've posted, so I'll have to do that
(14:21):
afterwards yeah, one is that youknow, again, the idea of storms
, right?
So, again, there's lots ofthings going on here.
So, taking that, you know,analyzing or trying to find, you
know, is the storm an allegoryfor something and what is the
(14:43):
allegory?
And so Bishop Barron isproposing, then, that the
allegory may be pointing to thefact that there is a storm
because I am resisting God'swill or I'm avoiding God's will,
right?
Is that a point?
Yeah, that is his presentation.
Well, I don't know From whatyou tell me.
(15:04):
Then, that is the presentation,right, that storms arise when
we resist.
I can agree with that to apoint again.
So, again, I don't know whathe's analyzing.
I don't know what his point isbecause I haven't seen the
YouTube.
But looking at that allegory ofJonah and Jonah's resisting
(15:29):
God's will, running away fromhis vocation, running away from
what God has asked of him, andthat because of this there is a
storm that happens and he windsup getting cast overboard, he
says I'm the cause for this.
And so then the sailors all gettogether and they throw him
overboard and they askforgiveness from the deities
(15:52):
because they're not Israelites,but they ask the gods
forgiveness as they throw themoverboard because they want to
save themselves.
So, anyway, okay, the storm canrepresent not just difficulties
(16:14):
because I'm resisting God'swill.
The storm could be a vehicleworking towards God's will being
accomplished, because Jonahdoes wind up going to Nineveh
and he does wind up preaching tothe Ninevites in spite of
(16:34):
himself.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, I think he says something about that too, where
it's like his correctivemeasure as well.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Right.
So it is his way of it's God'sway, or the sacred author's way
of proposing that God's will,god's word, god's desire is
going to be accomplished.
Then the next question is,again is a matter of do I run
(17:11):
away from God's will?
Because I'm afraid so, jonah.
The reason Jonah ran away fromGod's will because I'm afraid.
I'm afraid so Jonah.
The reason Jonah ran away fromGod's will is because Jonah did
not want the Ninevites to beforgiven.
That's why he didn't want to gopreach.
He wanted the Ninevites to bedestroyed.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Doesn't he get all grumpy too at the end?
Because?
Speaker 1 (17:30):
they repent like real quick.
Yeah, he gets upset about that.
So, anyway, there is that biasthere that's been presented as
part of the lesson, but I thinksometimes, hearing God's voice,
this is the part of thediscernment.
(17:51):
Then that has to enter into thelife of the person, right?
Then that has to enter into thelife of the person, right, is
it God's voice?
that I hear, or am I mistaken Iswhat I believe to be God's
voice, actually God's voice.
And then how do I enter intothat discernment to find that it
is truly God's voice?
And then, what is God's will inthis right?
What is it that God is askingof me?
(18:18):
So, part of the what I want toavoid is the idea of associating
storm or difficulty with sin,because that's not true.
We live in a broken world,which is a call, you know,
because of Adam and Eve, becauseof the fall.
We do live in a broken world,but because I have a difficult
life doesn't mean that my lifeis sinful.
(18:40):
Or if I have an easy lifedoesn't mean that my life is
blessed.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, that's kind of a very Old Testament Jewish kind
of concept, right, like if youhadn't sinned, then this would
not have happened to you, youwouldn't be blind or lame or
whatever.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Right, right, yeah.
So they even ask Jesus.
Is it this man's fault or hisparents' fault that he was born
blind or whatever right.
So we don't want to think of itthat way.
But what does happen andsometimes I have run across this
(19:22):
is that some people have a hardtime with their life, whatever
suffering it is, and again it'sI don't know, I can't speak
about it because everybody,everyone's experience of pain
and suffering is different fromeveryone else's, so I can't
speak to that, to that.
But I have run acrossindividuals who believe that
their life should be easierbecause they believe, or their
life should be easier becausethey pray, or their life should
(19:43):
be easier because they go tochurch, right, and I don't know
where that comes from.
I don't know where that ideacomes from.
I've never run across.
I mean that's not scriptural.
I mean I don't know where thatcomes from, that idea Cultural
somewhere, I'm sure it's fromsome culture, but the idea that,
(20:04):
like I said before, we need toavoid the concept or the
understanding that a difficultyequals punishment or consequence
.
Sometimes it is and sometimesit's not.
Sometimes it's just thebrokenness of the world, and
sometimes it's because I've madea wrong decision or I've made a
poor judgment, or I haven'tbeen able to discern very well,
(20:27):
and not out of malice, but I'vemade a mistake and I suffer the
consequences of that.
So there's that to take intoconsideration, right, and the
idea that, again going back tothis idea of the storm in Jonah,
(20:47):
it is corrective and in Jonahit is a way in which God, or the
author, the sacred author, istrying to communicate to us that
eventually God's will isbrought to completion.
Now I have to be careful whenwe take that allegory and try to
(21:08):
apply it to our lives.
We have to be very carefulabout that as well, because
there's a lot of differentvariables that come into play.
One am I a believer?
Two, what is my relationshipwith God?
Three, do I pray?
Do I have a real interior life?
Am I capable of consideringthese things right?
(21:29):
And, as I said before, justbecause our life is difficult
doesn't necessarily mean thatwe're separated from God.
For example, the whole idea ofLazarus and the rich man.
So Lazarus is the one that goesto rest in the bosom of Abraham
, which is our equivalent toheaven.
Right, but he was rich and hehad nothing to eat and he was
(21:55):
was living in the streets andthe dogs were licking him.
But he winds up being justifiedor saved or redeemed.
And the rich man who hadeverything and dressed in purple
and everything, he winds upbeing in Gehenna or hell, okay,
so again.
So those are things.
(22:15):
Gehenna or hell, Okay, so again.
So those are things.
We have to be really careful,you know, about how we state
things or understand things.
It is very complicated becausethere's so many multiple
variables in each person's lives, right?
So it's kind of hard to have ahard and fast rule of
interpretation, right, have ahard and fast rule of
(22:41):
interpretation, right.
And when it comes to thequestion of hearing God's voice,
okay, again, many variables.
So you have the scriptures, youhave the life, an example of
Jesus Christ, and that is God'svoice.
Do I need to have anextraordinary phenomenon or
locution?
No Reason, using reason andusing the revelation that has
(23:06):
been handed on to us, thatshould be enough to guide my
life.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
How should being a contemplative man, right, how
should people approachcontemplating all these things?
Because what I hear from you,and obviously appropriately, is
(23:34):
caution, caution, caution,patience, prayer, caution, right
, like, don't start justassuming things, Don't think you
know exactly what it is that'sgoing on.
So how should somebody evendare to approach these kinds of
concepts or wanting tounderstand what God wants for
them or their vocation, and allthat Right, what God wants for
them or their vocation, and allthat Right?
Speaker 1 (23:56):
So I think, going back to one of the things that
you mentioned earlier then wasabout the expectation.
Is my expectation based onreason and something that is
executable in my life, right?
So you were using the idea ofthe garden, were using the idea
(24:16):
of the garden.
So, yeah, I want to have agarden of cactus and a desert
garden, but I'm living in Hawaii, okay, so everything's going to
drown and everything's going torot right.
(24:47):
Or I want to have a tropicalgarden, but I'm living in the
desert.
Well, that's not going to work.
It's a matter of you know whatis your expectation.
Is your expectation reasonableand is my expectation informed
by tradition and teaching of thechurch?
I think that has a lot to dowith keeping to the right track,
right, or understanding whatour journey is, as our journey
(25:10):
unfolds.
And part of it, too, is thatsometimes it's a matter of we
are not aware of something, orwe're not aware of our own
journey or our own prejudicesand biases, until you know we're
one smack, smack up againstthem, or they smack us on the
side of the head and you're likeoh, I didn't even consider that
(25:34):
, that was not even part of thehorizon.
That's a lot I need torecalibrate.
That's part of it too.
Again, as I said, it's verycomplicated In terms of being
able to do this.
Going back to the idea ofcontemplation, contemplation is
(25:54):
a capacity for introspection andbeing objective about the self.
So is there a level ofobjectivity of myself?
Is there a?
Do I take time to wonder aboutthings?
(26:17):
Do I take time to wonder aboutthings?
Do I take time to ponder thingsout, to consider the
consequences of things.
Is there an ability to pause?
Because what happens is a lotof times, and this happens a lot
in the spiritual life.
The spiritual life, yeah peopletake, the people take, you know,
(26:38):
take the ball and run and runand like, wait a minute, that's
the wrong direction, that's notwhat the plan was, that's not
what god asked.
So people presume that theyknow what the logical next step
is, and that's not necessarilytrue.
So this whole idea, then, of ofhearing and part of it is again
is it informed?
(26:59):
Is it understandable?
Is it part of the tradition?
Am I willing to consider thingsoutside of my particular way of
thinking things?
Am I willing to be objectiveabout my own stance?
Am I willing to be educated?
Am I willing to be educatedRight?
Am I willing to be formed?
And that's the most importantthing is, am I, am I educable?
(27:19):
Am I, am I capable of receivinginformation and using it to
adjust and correct my ownjourney or my own
decision-making?
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Yeah, so that that makes me think about excuse me.
So that makes me think aboutexcuse me.
You and many religious orders,maybe even all religious orders
I'm not sure you have vows ofpoverty, right so you're other
than you know.
(27:52):
Jesus, he loves the poor kindof thing.
Right, that they hold thisspecial place in the kingdom.
But there are, I know there arereligious orders where they
take on extra hardships, right,so that how does taking on
(28:15):
hardships, how does acceptingthe cross, help us to grow or to
cooperate with God?
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Okay, there can be aberrations of that, there can
be pathological aberrations ofthat which are not healthy, and
not what?
the church intends.
But the healthy understandingof that, the healthy root of
that, is the consideration ofthe fact that all things come to
(28:54):
an end, right, the glory ofthis world is passing, as Paul
says, that there is a temporalorder, and then there's the
spiritual order that is eternal,and so part of the hardship is
it is a way in which the personcontinuously reminds themselves
that this is, one, it is abroken world, and two, it's in
(29:19):
need of redemption, and three,that it's going to come to an
end.
We talked about the four lastthings not too long ago, and so
part of the hardship is that itkeeps the person aware, or
should keep the, I should say itshould keep the person aware of
the temporality of things andhow all things come to an end,
(29:41):
right, and that's part of thatgrowth in detachment, so that
I'm not continuously driven bythe pleasure principle, right,
and so I become a master of mypassions or my pleasures, and
(30:02):
they don't master me.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, that reminds me .
Well, yeah, it makes me thinkone thing real quick.
It's like it doesn't mean likehardships being something that
are helpful or whatever.
It doesn't mean okay, go drivenails through your hands, so you
are more appreciative likedon't go hurt yourself, right?
Speaker 1 (30:22):
yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
um, but then what?
That?
What you had just said, beingmaster over the things it?
What did you said somethingonce about if you're truly free,
then it doesn't matter yoursituation or circumstance, right
, you could be in prison, but ifyou're truly free.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Yeah, nobody can take your dignity.
Yeah, so if you're truly freeright, it doesn't matter where
you find yourself, whetheryou're in prison or not, or
whether you're enslaved or not.
If you're truly free interiorly, then you carry yourself with
dignity and the spirit cannot beenslaved.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Can you, is it possible to fully be free
outside of Jesus, or is it justlike a shade of that true
freedom?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
As a believer, I would have to say that the only
real, true freedom is found inChrist right, because he is the
son of the Father and his desirefor us is that we enter into
the liberty or the freedom ofthe sons of God.
So there's a freedom that comeswith that.
Outside of that, I don't know,there can be philosophical
(31:47):
approaches that lead you to somesort of freedom.
For example, in the philosophyof Buddhism, the whole idea of
freedom is that basically, youknow, the world is a lie, the
world is an illusion, temporalreality is an illusion, and
basically for the Buddhist tofree themselves from the cycle
(32:11):
of reincarnation, that's freedom.
Freedom is to come.
I'm not sure exactly if thatmeans annihilation or not, that
I cease to exist, but I thinkthat's what it means, because
for the Buddhists, they believein reincarnation, and so you're
freed from the reincarnationsonce you reach enlightenment,
(32:31):
and that's the freedom you want,to free yourself from the
material world.
But I don't know if that meansthe person ceases to exist,
because then that would befreedom.
So anyway, I mean there'sdifferent ways of approaching it
.
For us it'd be that the freedomthat we're speaking of is to be
fully humanely, human inrelationship with the divine,
(32:55):
because that is what we werecreated for.
The freedom is the relationshipwith the divine, because that
is what we were created for.
The freedom is the relationshipwith the divine, because that
was the original plan, that Godintended for us is to live in
communion, or that relationshipwith the divine.
So that is the freedom.
The freedom is to be who Godhas asked me to be.
(33:17):
Okay, so if I'm yeah, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
So it's like to be Christ-like, to be made in God's
image, to be His Son, to bewhat I was intended to be, not
something else.
Okay, so, as it starts to rainagain, over here at least.
So now you know, I'm, I'm me, Ican be anybody I'm.
(33:46):
I'm sitting in my backyard, I'mcontemplating the storms in my
life, I'm contemplating my weedygarden, like what should be the
appropriate way for me toreflect and to take my time with
these kinds of thoughts Versuswhat would be the, as you were
(34:07):
saying, people get, they takethe ball and run with it, they
get all hasty.
Like what would you advise forsome, because not every?
I'm lucky, one of my bestfriends is a priest, right, so I
can go talk to you and I canget that spiritual direction.
Not everybody has someone likethat in their lives, so how
should people try to approach it?
I?
Speaker 1 (34:27):
think the healthy approach is for us, as believers
, to pray for enlightenment andnot give up on that
enlightenment, not give up onthat petition or that seeking to
be better informed.
Again, it's a journey and it'sa process and we're becoming.
(34:50):
We're in this journey ofbecoming who God is desiring us
to be, this journey of becomingwho God is desiring us to be,
and there's hiccups along theroad and you fall flat on your
face along the road.
The important thing is you doget up and keep going.
But I think essentially it goesback to this idea of being
educable.
(35:11):
Am I open to learning?
Open to learning?
Do I seek enlightenment or do Iseek information to help me be
a better person?
Do I seek information to helpme make better choices?
Looking at your metaphor, I'mlooking at my garden and it's
(35:35):
full of weeds.
I'm going God, why is my gardenfull of weeds?
And it's sort of like.
And God goes like, because youhaven't tended to it, because
you haven't weeded it, becauseyou haven't prepared it, because
you didn't till it right orwhatever right.
And there is that work that isnecessary in our part.
(35:57):
Right, the whole part of youknow.
Inspiration and enlightenment isthat we're capable of being
self-corrective.
So we make better choices, wemake better decisions, we learn
from our mistakes, we grow fromthat and make us, hopefully,
better persons and more capableof loving as Christ desires us
(36:18):
to love, with that unconditionallove.
So I mean that's the purpose ofit.
The purpose of it is not justto have a beautiful garden or
something that is aestheticallypleasing, or to have a life that
is not encumbered by problemsor crises or storms.
Right, it's a matter ofunderstanding that I'm not alone
(36:42):
in this journey.
And so how do I take time toenter into this relationship
with the Lord, reflect upon therichness and complexity of my
life and be able to makedecisions Again, they're not
(37:02):
always going to be perfect andthey're not always going to be
right but make decisions towardsa better life, and by that I
mean a more humane, human life.
It doesn't necessarily mean noproblems, but what I mean by a
(37:26):
better life is a life that ismore an imitation of the example
that's set before us, beforeChrist and the saints.
Right that idea.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, I like that you continue to reinforce the
thought that we are, that thereare corrective measures along
the way.
Right, because I can see a lotof people, especially maybe I'm
young, and is God calling me tomarriage, is he calling me to
the priesthood, is he calling meto single life, like, what does
(37:52):
he want?
And I kind of get stuck in thatanalysis.
Paralysis right, I'm afraid toact and make mistakes, but we
shouldn't be afraid no becausegod's going to be with us, yeah,
yeah, so, for example, you know.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
so jonas is like uh, god says I want you to go preach
to the ninevites.
And then johnny goes like no, Idon't want to preach the
ninevites because I know you'remerciful and forgiving and
patient and I don't want you togo preach to the Ninevites.
And then Jody goes like no, Idon't want to preach to the
Ninevites because I know you'remerciful and forgiving and
patient and I don't want you tobe merciful, forgiving and
patient to them.
So no, a hard pass.
And then God goes like no, Iwant you to do this.
So then there's the correctivemeasure of the storm plus the
(38:34):
corrective measure of the whale,and then he finds himself at
the shores of Nineveh.
And this is the thing is evenresisting and grumpy and being
the whiny thing that he is.
He goes ahead and he does it,and God's will is fulfilled.
(38:55):
Nineveh is Because he goesahead and he does it, and God's
will is fulfilled.
Nineveh is saved from its ownsin.
They convert, they put asidetheir sinfulness and even though
Jonah is hacked, about it he'sjust absolutely apoplectic about
it, like see, that's why Ididn't want to come and preach
(39:16):
to them, because I knew you'dforgive them.
And he's just having the bitchfest with God.
And then God very beautifullysays but they don't know their
right hand from their left Imean, they're children, they
don't know, and his mercy istowards that ignorance, right.
(39:37):
And so I think what we learnfrom it is again, is that God's
will is continuously at work,and it's in the Scripture I
think I forget I don't know ifit's in the Psalms, somewhere in
the Old Testament and I can'tremember right now because I'm
getting brain fog.
Somewhere in the Old Testamentand I can't remember right now
(39:58):
because I'm getting brain fog.
My word will not come back tome until it's fulfilled its
purpose, right?
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Or is it one of the Isaiah prophecies?
Maybe it is Isaiah.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
I think it might be Isaiah.
And so, like, my word will notcome back to me until it's
fulfilled its purpose.
Like, god's word is God's wordand God's word is effective.
It might take time because weget in the way or the brokenness
of the world gets in the way,but god's word is effective and
it's going to accomplish whatit's meant to accomplish.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Yeah, what even in our own?
Speaker 1 (40:28):
and even in our own lives I mean even in our own
lives it's going to accomplishwhat it's meant to accomplish.
It just might take a long timebecause, yeah, I keep making
stupid mistakes.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
It might even take your whole life, but I guess
what a great adventure, rightwhen?
Speaker 1 (40:46):
you when you see it that way it is.
It is, it's, it is theadventure that the Holy Spirit
leads you on.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yeah, Well, cool, Thanks for uh.
Thanks for helping me kind ofweed my garden here and seeing
what comes from this, Iappreciate it.
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
This was an unexpected topic, but okay, it's
good.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Well, everybody else, thanks for joining us and we
will see you next time.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
God bless.
Thank you, god bless.
Welcome to our podcast friends.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you like our podcast andwant to support us, please
subscribe or follow us, andplease don't forget to click the
notification bell so you willbe notified when new episodes
release.
Thank you and God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me and myfriend the friar Father Stephen
Sanchez, a disc house Carmelitepriest.
Good afternoon, father.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Good wet afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Oh, my goodness, it's a very rainy day today, all day
Since three in the morningtoday, all day Since three in
the morning.
Yeah, I've been up since fiveand it was raining, so we're
washing away.
The rain is just kind ofcoincidental to something we're
(00:58):
going to talk about here, justpure chance.
But before we get started,you've been busy.
Yes Are you doing okay, yeah,you getting the rest you need.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
No, but you know what can you do.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
What can you do?
What can you do when your lifeis so full and hectic and you
can't seem to catch a break?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Trusting God and keep going.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, let's talk about that, I guess.
So I saw this video once upon atime, no idea when I saw it.
To be honest, it was by BishopBarron and his video.
I guess I can put a link.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Maybe I can put a link yeah, you can do it in the
video.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
It's called Hearing the Voice of God and super
paraphrasing, from what I canremember is it had to do with
Jonah and he was saying that thestorm.
He was talking about the storm,right, because Jonah God says
(02:07):
hey, jonah, go preach to the.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Ninevites.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, and Jonah's like, nah, I'm out.
So he gets on a boat and goesin the complete opposite
direction, right, yeah.
And so then there's this big oldstorm no-transcript.
(02:46):
So like God sends the storm andthe storm, it symbolizes
Jonah's inability to escapeGod's will.
It's kind of what he wasgetting after, because Jonah's
(03:09):
obvious he's not following whatGod commanded him to do.
Right, he said go do this, hesaid no.
So thus the storm is theconsequence, the inability to
escape God, and he was kind ofplaying with a bunch of other
things.
I think, like the storm couldbe sinfulness or right, not
(03:32):
Sinfulness, as in not doingGod's will.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
I guess Resisting yeah, resisting yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
And so I thought it was really interesting and I was
contemplating this video andwhat Bishop Barron was exploring
, and there were some thingsthat some of the things I was
considering.
Some of us, like Jonah, we veryclearly hear God's voice in our
(04:06):
lives, so to speak.
We very clearly understand whatit is that God wants us to do
and, like Jonah, we just run.
I don't want to do this thing,I want to do it my way, right.
But some of us also, westruggle to hear God's voice
(04:37):
because we can't see past thestorm, whatever the storm might
be in our lives hardships,things, right, I don't know my
situation, my job, my family, mywhatever.
It's almost like we'redistracted, I guess, is how I
could say it a different way.
I am too maybe egotistical, I'mtoo wrapped up in my experience
(04:59):
and how this feels and whatthis is like, and so I can't see
past that to understand thatGod has a will and a desire for
me in my life.
And I guess the last thing thatit could be or that people might
experience with some of us, youknow, we just miss God's voice,
(05:19):
like we never heard God tobegin with, for some reason or
another, right God might besaying Father Stephen, I want
you to go do this, but you'rejust, I don't know.
You're not paying attention, Iguess, or you're unwilling to
pay attention, perhaps.
So the question I guess that Iremember him kind of posing to,
(05:42):
is if, instead, you don't resistthe voice of God.
What happens in our lives?
And I just, you know, I wasjust sitting with it and
thinking about it and I think Iwas in my backyard and our
little backyard is a total mess,like it's a nightmare right now
(06:05):
.
It is overgrown, there's weedseverywhere, the fence is falling
down.
I know, I know, but it kind ofbrought rise to this metaphor,
to kind of answer it in my mindwhat happens if you, if you
(06:27):
resist the voice of God?
And so I like to, I like togarden or farm is is like when I
was a little kid I wanted to bea farmer.
Right, I like growing stuff, Ilike the smell of dirt, I like
planting things and seeing themgrow and and all that.
It could very well be.
If I'm really honest, I mightlike the thought of it more than
(06:50):
I like actually doing it.
I don't know, maybe when I wasyounger I liked it a lot more
than I do now, because my backis always hurting.
It's like it's hard work, youknow digging and pulling weeds
and all that stuff.
So I'm just old now, so maybe Ilike the thought of it more
(07:11):
than I actually like doing it.
But the thing that I wascontemplating in response to
what happens when we resistGod's voice, god's will, what
happens if we don't resist God'svoice, god's will?
I'm looking at this littleflower bed we have in our
backyard and, like I said, it'sa nightmare.
(07:31):
There's like a dandeliongrowing that's almost as tall as
I am at this point and the kindof metaphor here is I know from
my gardening experience thatnature doesn't like bare soil.
If you were to pull all thegrass, pull the weeds, pull the
(07:52):
whatever and just leave baresoil like nature does not like
it, it will grow.
Whatever in the world it canget to grow, whether you like it
or not.
Right To cover it up, right?
So you get all these weeds andstuff, if you.
(08:14):
So I'm thinking about thisgarden and I'm thinking about
how it might symbolize our lives.
And if we this is kind of whatI came up with if we plant
things in the garden but wedon't care for it properly, it's
going to die.
(08:34):
Right?
If I try to force things togrow in the garden that aren't
right for the conditions,they're going to die.
If we don't cultivate thegarden at all and we just leave
(08:58):
it bare, god's going to allowanything to grow in the garden,
anything to grow in the garden.
But if we cooperate with God andwe plant what's right for the
conditions and we take propercare of the things we plant,
(09:19):
then the garden flourishes inthis little metaphor, right?
So I guess, like the weedscould be a parallel for the
storm, right?
That inescapability of God'swill.
He's going to do with thegarden as he pleases and you
know he'll allow whatever hewants to happen to happen.
And I can, you know.
(09:46):
It made me stop and wonder ifthe garden's full of weeds.
If your life is full of weeds,kind of like the storm, right,
does it show your life is fullof sin?
Or because God doesn't make sinin your life, right?
He's not.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
No, he doesn't.
No, he doesn't create sin, no.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It's not.
Yeah, god does not make sin,but he allows things.
So maybe the weedy garden is itlike a?
Does it show a lack of effortor a lack of cooperation?
Or what does it show when ourlives are full of difficulties
(10:37):
or whatever?
So I don't know.
Like I was, I kept thinkingabout it because, like you know,
some some gardens well like forfor me it's.
I guess something that I I thinkof is is I know that
(10:59):
expectations are are prettychallenging for me.
I heard somebody say onceexpectations are like
preconceived prejudices, right,like if you're going to go to
Six Flags or something, anamusement park, and you're like
this is gonna be the best dayever, and you get there and it's
(11:19):
not the best day ever.
Was the trip worthwhile?
Did you still have a good time,or is it ruined because you had
these expectations of somethingthat didn't come to be Right,
something less than yourexpectations.
So you're prejudiced againstanything that could be because
you're expecting something veryparticular, and I can't remember
(11:43):
where I got that from, butthat's always stuck with me.
And so then I think about thegarden.
We might have an expectation ofwhat the garden should be, what
our lives should be, and thatcould probably be problematic
(12:03):
because there's a bunch ofdifferent types of gardens,
right.
There's like rock gardens andcactus gardens and vegetable
gardens and whatever right,there's a bunch of different
types of gardens, right.
There's like rock gardens andcactus gardens and vegetable
gardens and whatever right,there's a bunch of different
types of gardens.
And so if you have anexpectation of something and
maybe you're not open to whatcould be right, and maybe that's
like we're not open to what Godwills for us because we're
(12:25):
looking for something veryspecific, it could stop us from
cooperating with God to worktowards, I don't know,
cultivating this garden.
So, anyway, all of that, all ofthat, all of that Thinking about
the storms and thinking aboutthe gardens and stuff, about the
storms and thinking about thegardens and stuff, kind of to
(12:47):
you, I want to know, like, whathappens?
What do you do when your lifeis I don't want to necessarily
say it's not going according toplan, but some people just have
really rough lives right Allthroughout the world.
(13:09):
There's all sorts of crazysituations out there and so,
like what, if somebody isstruggling because they're
trying to cooperate with God andit's there's no garden, it is
nothing, but weeds their entirelife, right?
And maybe this kind of goes tomartyrs, which is why I was
(13:29):
thinking about you.
Like, how do you well, becauseyou love the martyrs, right?
So like, how do you Like, howdo you well, because you love
the martyrs, right?
So like, how do you?
What would you say to somebodywho's just like Father, like my
life?
I don't know how to say it.
It sucks Like I can't.
Nothing ever goes right.
I try to cooperate with God, Itry and listen to God, I try and
do what he wants, but it's likeall he wants is for me to
(13:51):
suffer or struggle or whatever.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
What do you say to that?
Well, you've laid out many,many, many, many ideas in this
short section here.
One, getting back to BishopBarron's I haven't seen the
YouTube video that you've posted, so I'll have to do that
(14:21):
afterwards yeah, one is that youknow, again, the idea of storms
, right?
So, again, there's lots ofthings going on here.
So, taking that, you know,analyzing or trying to find, you
know, is the storm an allegoryfor something and what is the
(14:43):
allegory?
And so Bishop Barron isproposing, then, that the
allegory may be pointing to thefact that there is a storm
because I am resisting God'swill or I'm avoiding God's will,
right?
Is that a point?
Yeah, that is his presentation.
Well, I don't know From whatyou tell me.
(15:04):
Then, that is the presentation,right, that storms arise when
we resist.
I can agree with that to apoint again.
So, again, I don't know whathe's analyzing.
I don't know what his point isbecause I haven't seen the
YouTube.
But looking at that allegory ofJonah and Jonah's resisting
(15:29):
God's will, running away fromhis vocation, running away from
what God has asked of him, andthat because of this there is a
storm that happens and he windsup getting cast overboard, he
says I'm the cause for this.
And so then the sailors all gettogether and they throw him
overboard and they askforgiveness from the deities
(15:52):
because they're not Israelites,but they ask the gods
forgiveness as they throw themoverboard because they want to
save themselves.
So, anyway, okay, the storm canrepresent not just difficulties
(16:14):
because I'm resisting God'swill.
The storm could be a vehicleworking towards God's will being
accomplished, because Jonahdoes wind up going to Nineveh
and he does wind up preaching tothe Ninevites in spite of
(16:34):
himself.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, I think he says something about that too, where
it's like his correctivemeasure as well.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Right.
So it is his way of it's God'sway, or the sacred author's way
of proposing that God's will,god's word, god's desire is
going to be accomplished.
Then the next question is,again is a matter of do I run
(17:11):
away from God's will?
Because I'm afraid so, jonah.
The reason Jonah ran away fromGod's will because I'm afraid.
I'm afraid so Jonah.
The reason Jonah ran away fromGod's will is because Jonah did
not want the Ninevites to beforgiven.
That's why he didn't want to gopreach.
He wanted the Ninevites to bedestroyed.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Doesn't he get all grumpy too at the end?
Because?
Speaker 1 (17:30):
they repent like real quick.
Yeah, he gets upset about that.
So, anyway, there is that biasthere that's been presented as
part of the lesson, but I thinksometimes, hearing God's voice,
this is the part of thediscernment.
(17:51):
Then that has to enter into thelife of the person, right?
Then that has to enter into thelife of the person, right, is
it God's voice?
that I hear, or am I mistaken Iswhat I believe to be God's
voice, actually God's voice.
And then how do I enter intothat discernment to find that it
is truly God's voice?
And then, what is God's will inthis right?
What is it that God is askingof me?
(18:18):
So, part of the what I want toavoid is the idea of associating
storm or difficulty with sin,because that's not true.
We live in a broken world,which is a call, you know,
because of Adam and Eve, becauseof the fall.
We do live in a broken world,but because I have a difficult
life doesn't mean that my lifeis sinful.
(18:40):
Or if I have an easy lifedoesn't mean that my life is
blessed.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, that's kind of a very Old Testament Jewish kind
of concept, right, like if youhadn't sinned, then this would
not have happened to you, youwouldn't be blind or lame or
whatever.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Right, right, yeah.
So they even ask Jesus.
Is it this man's fault or hisparents' fault that he was born
blind or whatever right.
So we don't want to think of itthat way.
But what does happen andsometimes I have run across this
(19:22):
is that some people have a hardtime with their life, whatever
suffering it is, and again it'sI don't know, I can't speak
about it because everybody,everyone's experience of pain
and suffering is different fromeveryone else's, so I can't
speak to that, to that.
But I have run acrossindividuals who believe that
their life should be easierbecause they believe, or their
life should be easier becausethey pray, or their life should
(19:43):
be easier because they go tochurch, right, and I don't know
where that comes from.
I don't know where that ideacomes from.
I've never run across.
I mean that's not scriptural.
I mean I don't know where thatcomes from, that idea Cultural
somewhere, I'm sure it's fromsome culture, but the idea that,
(20:04):
like I said before, we need toavoid the concept or the
understanding that a difficultyequals punishment or consequence
.
Sometimes it is and sometimesit's not.
Sometimes it's just thebrokenness of the world, and
sometimes it's because I've madea wrong decision or I've made a
poor judgment, or I haven'tbeen able to discern very well,
(20:27):
and not out of malice, but I'vemade a mistake and I suffer the
consequences of that.
So there's that to take intoconsideration, right, and the
idea that, again going back tothis idea of the storm in Jonah,
(20:47):
it is corrective and in Jonahit is a way in which God, or the
author, the sacred author, istrying to communicate to us that
eventually God's will isbrought to completion.
Now I have to be careful whenwe take that allegory and try to
(21:08):
apply it to our lives.
We have to be very carefulabout that as well, because
there's a lot of differentvariables that come into play.
One am I a believer?
Two, what is my relationshipwith God?
Three, do I pray?
Do I have a real interior life?
Am I capable of consideringthese things right?
(21:29):
And, as I said before, justbecause our life is difficult
doesn't necessarily mean thatwe're separated from God.
For example, the whole idea ofLazarus and the rich man.
So Lazarus is the one that goesto rest in the bosom of Abraham
, which is our equivalent toheaven.
Right, but he was rich and hehad nothing to eat and he was
(21:55):
was living in the streets andthe dogs were licking him.
But he winds up being justifiedor saved or redeemed.
And the rich man who hadeverything and dressed in purple
and everything, he winds upbeing in Gehenna or hell, okay,
so again.
So those are things.
(22:15):
Gehenna or hell, Okay, so again.
So those are things.
We have to be really careful,you know, about how we state
things or understand things.
It is very complicated becausethere's so many multiple
variables in each person's lives, right?
So it's kind of hard to have ahard and fast rule of
interpretation, right, have ahard and fast rule of
(22:41):
interpretation, right.
And when it comes to thequestion of hearing God's voice,
okay, again, many variables.
So you have the scriptures, youhave the life, an example of
Jesus Christ, and that is God'svoice.
Do I need to have anextraordinary phenomenon or
locution?
No Reason, using reason andusing the revelation that has
(23:06):
been handed on to us, thatshould be enough to guide my
life.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
How should being a contemplative man, right, how
should people approachcontemplating all these things?
Because what I hear from you,and obviously appropriately, is
(23:34):
caution, caution, caution,patience, prayer, caution, right
, like, don't start justassuming things, Don't think you
know exactly what it is that'sgoing on.
So how should somebody evendare to approach these kinds of
concepts or wanting tounderstand what God wants for
them or their vocation, and allthat Right, what God wants for
them or their vocation, and allthat Right?
Speaker 1 (23:56):
So I think, going back to one of the things that
you mentioned earlier then wasabout the expectation.
Is my expectation based onreason and something that is
executable in my life, right?
So you were using the idea ofthe garden, were using the idea
(24:16):
of the garden.
So, yeah, I want to have agarden of cactus and a desert
garden, but I'm living in Hawaii, okay, so everything's going to
drown and everything's going torot right.
(24:47):
Or I want to have a tropicalgarden, but I'm living in the
desert.
Well, that's not going to work.
It's a matter of you know whatis your expectation.
Is your expectation reasonableand is my expectation informed
by tradition and teaching of thechurch?
I think that has a lot to dowith keeping to the right track,
right, or understanding whatour journey is, as our journey
(25:10):
unfolds.
And part of it, too, is thatsometimes it's a matter of we
are not aware of something, orwe're not aware of our own
journey or our own prejudicesand biases, until you know we're
one smack, smack up againstthem, or they smack us on the
side of the head and you're likeoh, I didn't even consider that
(25:34):
, that was not even part of thehorizon.
That's a lot I need torecalibrate.
That's part of it too.
Again, as I said, it's verycomplicated In terms of being
able to do this.
Going back to the idea ofcontemplation, contemplation is
(25:54):
a capacity for introspection andbeing objective about the self.
So is there a level ofobjectivity of myself?
Is there a?
Do I take time to wonder aboutthings?
(26:17):
Do I take time to wonder aboutthings?
Do I take time to ponder thingsout, to consider the
consequences of things.
Is there an ability to pause?
Because what happens is a lotof times, and this happens a lot
in the spiritual life.
The spiritual life, yeah peopletake, the people take, you know,
(26:38):
take the ball and run and runand like, wait a minute, that's
the wrong direction, that's notwhat the plan was, that's not
what god asked.
So people presume that theyknow what the logical next step
is, and that's not necessarilytrue.
So this whole idea, then, of ofhearing and part of it is again
is it informed?
(26:59):
Is it understandable?
Is it part of the tradition?
Am I willing to consider thingsoutside of my particular way of
thinking things?
Am I willing to be objectiveabout my own stance?
Am I willing to be educated?
Am I willing to be educatedRight?
Am I willing to be formed?
And that's the most importantthing is, am I, am I educable?
(27:19):
Am I, am I capable of receivinginformation and using it to
adjust and correct my ownjourney or my own
decision-making?
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Yeah, so that that makes me think about excuse me.
So that makes me think aboutexcuse me.
You and many religious orders,maybe even all religious orders
I'm not sure you have vows ofpoverty, right so you're other
than you know.
(27:52):
Jesus, he loves the poor kindof thing.
Right, that they hold thisspecial place in the kingdom.
But there are, I know there arereligious orders where they
take on extra hardships, right,so that how does taking on
(28:15):
hardships, how does acceptingthe cross, help us to grow or to
cooperate with God?
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Okay, there can be aberrations of that, there can
be pathological aberrations ofthat which are not healthy, and
not what?
the church intends.
But the healthy understandingof that, the healthy root of
that, is the consideration ofthe fact that all things come to
(28:54):
an end, right, the glory ofthis world is passing, as Paul
says, that there is a temporalorder, and then there's the
spiritual order that is eternal,and so part of the hardship is
it is a way in which the personcontinuously reminds themselves
that this is, one, it is abroken world, and two, it's in
(29:19):
need of redemption, and three,that it's going to come to an
end.
We talked about the four lastthings not too long ago, and so
part of the hardship is that itkeeps the person aware, or
should keep the, I should say itshould keep the person aware of
the temporality of things andhow all things come to an end,
(29:41):
right, and that's part of thatgrowth in detachment, so that
I'm not continuously driven bythe pleasure principle, right,
and so I become a master of mypassions or my pleasures, and
(30:02):
they don't master me.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, that reminds me .
Well, yeah, it makes me thinkone thing real quick.
It's like it doesn't mean likehardships being something that
are helpful or whatever.
It doesn't mean okay, go drivenails through your hands, so you
are more appreciative likedon't go hurt yourself, right?
Speaker 1 (30:22):
yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
um, but then what?
That?
What you had just said, beingmaster over the things it?
What did you said somethingonce about if you're truly free,
then it doesn't matter yoursituation or circumstance, right
, you could be in prison, but ifyou're truly free.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Yeah, nobody can take your dignity.
Yeah, so if you're truly freeright, it doesn't matter where
you find yourself, whetheryou're in prison or not, or
whether you're enslaved or not.
If you're truly free interiorly, then you carry yourself with
dignity and the spirit cannot beenslaved.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Can you, is it possible to fully be free
outside of Jesus, or is it justlike a shade of that true
freedom?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
As a believer, I would have to say that the only
real, true freedom is found inChrist right, because he is the
son of the Father and his desirefor us is that we enter into
the liberty or the freedom ofthe sons of God.
So there's a freedom that comeswith that.
Outside of that, I don't know,there can be philosophical
(31:47):
approaches that lead you to somesort of freedom.
For example, in the philosophyof Buddhism, the whole idea of
freedom is that basically, youknow, the world is a lie, the
world is an illusion, temporalreality is an illusion, and
basically for the Buddhist tofree themselves from the cycle
(32:11):
of reincarnation, that's freedom.
Freedom is to come.
I'm not sure exactly if thatmeans annihilation or not, that
I cease to exist, but I thinkthat's what it means, because
for the Buddhists, they believein reincarnation, and so you're
freed from the reincarnationsonce you reach enlightenment,
(32:31):
and that's the freedom you want,to free yourself from the
material world.
But I don't know if that meansthe person ceases to exist,
because then that would befreedom.
So anyway, I mean there'sdifferent ways of approaching it
.
For us it'd be that the freedomthat we're speaking of is to be
fully humanely, human inrelationship with the divine,
(32:55):
because that is what we werecreated for.
The freedom is the relationshipwith the divine, because that
is what we were created for.
The freedom is the relationshipwith the divine, because that
was the original plan, that Godintended for us is to live in
communion, or that relationshipwith the divine.
So that is the freedom.
The freedom is to be who Godhas asked me to be.
(33:17):
Okay, so if I'm yeah, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
So it's like to be Christ-like, to be made in God's
image, to be His Son, to bewhat I was intended to be, not
something else.
Okay, so, as it starts to rainagain, over here at least.
So now you know, I'm, I'm me, Ican be anybody I'm.
(33:46):
I'm sitting in my backyard, I'mcontemplating the storms in my
life, I'm contemplating my weedygarden, like what should be the
appropriate way for me toreflect and to take my time with
these kinds of thoughts Versuswhat would be the, as you were
(34:07):
saying, people get, they takethe ball and run with it, they
get all hasty.
Like what would you advise forsome, because not every?
I'm lucky, one of my bestfriends is a priest, right, so I
can go talk to you and I canget that spiritual direction.
Not everybody has someone likethat in their lives, so how
should people try to approach it?
I?
Speaker 1 (34:27):
think the healthy approach is for us, as believers
, to pray for enlightenment andnot give up on that
enlightenment, not give up onthat petition or that seeking to
be better informed.
Again, it's a journey and it'sa process and we're becoming.
(34:50):
We're in this journey ofbecoming who God is desiring us
to be, this journey of becomingwho God is desiring us to be,
and there's hiccups along theroad and you fall flat on your
face along the road.
The important thing is you doget up and keep going.
But I think essentially it goesback to this idea of being
educable.
(35:11):
Am I open to learning?
Open to learning?
Do I seek enlightenment or do Iseek information to help me be
a better person?
Do I seek information to helpme make better choices?
Looking at your metaphor, I'mlooking at my garden and it's
(35:35):
full of weeds.
I'm going God, why is my gardenfull of weeds?
And it's sort of like.
And God goes like, because youhaven't tended to it, because
you haven't weeded it, becauseyou haven't prepared it, because
you didn't till it right orwhatever right.
And there is that work that isnecessary in our part.
(35:57):
Right, the whole part of youknow.
Inspiration and enlightenment isthat we're capable of being
self-corrective.
So we make better choices, wemake better decisions, we learn
from our mistakes, we grow fromthat and make us, hopefully,
better persons and more capableof loving as Christ desires us
(36:18):
to love, with that unconditionallove.
So I mean that's the purpose ofit.
The purpose of it is not justto have a beautiful garden or
something that is aestheticallypleasing, or to have a life that
is not encumbered by problemsor crises or storms.
Right, it's a matter ofunderstanding that I'm not alone
(36:42):
in this journey.
And so how do I take time toenter into this relationship
with the Lord, reflect upon therichness and complexity of my
life and be able to makedecisions Again, they're not
(37:02):
always going to be perfect andthey're not always going to be
right but make decisions towardsa better life, and by that I
mean a more humane, human life.
It doesn't necessarily mean noproblems, but what I mean by a
(37:26):
better life is a life that ismore an imitation of the example
that's set before us, beforeChrist and the saints.
Right that idea.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, I like that you continue to reinforce the
thought that we are, that thereare corrective measures along
the way.
Right, because I can see a lotof people, especially maybe I'm
young, and is God calling me tomarriage, is he calling me to
the priesthood, is he calling meto single life, like, what does
(37:52):
he want?
And I kind of get stuck in thatanalysis.
Paralysis right, I'm afraid toact and make mistakes, but we
shouldn't be afraid no becausegod's going to be with us, yeah,
yeah, so, for example, you know.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
so jonas is like uh, god says I want you to go preach
to the ninevites.
And then johnny goes like no, Idon't want to preach the
ninevites because I know you'remerciful and forgiving and
patient and I don't want you togo preach to the Ninevites.
And then Jody goes like no, Idon't want to preach to the
Ninevites because I know you'remerciful and forgiving and
patient and I don't want you tobe merciful, forgiving and
patient to them.
So no, a hard pass.
And then God goes like no, Iwant you to do this.
So then there's the correctivemeasure of the storm plus the
(38:34):
corrective measure of the whale,and then he finds himself at
the shores of Nineveh.
And this is the thing is evenresisting and grumpy and being
the whiny thing that he is.
He goes ahead and he does it,and God's will is fulfilled.
(38:55):
Nineveh is Because he goesahead and he does it, and God's
will is fulfilled.
Nineveh is saved from its ownsin.
They convert, they put asidetheir sinfulness and even though
Jonah is hacked, about it he'sjust absolutely apoplectic about
it, like see, that's why Ididn't want to come and preach
(39:16):
to them, because I knew you'dforgive them.
And he's just having the bitchfest with God.
And then God very beautifullysays but they don't know their
right hand from their left Imean, they're children, they
don't know, and his mercy istowards that ignorance, right.
(39:37):
And so I think what we learnfrom it is again, is that God's
will is continuously at work,and it's in the Scripture I
think I forget I don't know ifit's in the Psalms, somewhere in
the Old Testament and I can'tremember right now because I'm
getting brain fog.
Somewhere in the Old Testamentand I can't remember right now
(39:58):
because I'm getting brain fog.
My word will not come back tome until it's fulfilled its
purpose, right?
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Or is it one of the Isaiah prophecies?
Maybe it is Isaiah.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
I think it might be Isaiah.
And so, like, my word will notcome back to me until it's
fulfilled its purpose.
Like, god's word is God's wordand God's word is effective.
It might take time because weget in the way or the brokenness
of the world gets in the way,but god's word is effective and
it's going to accomplish whatit's meant to accomplish.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Yeah, what even in our own?
Speaker 1 (40:28):
and even in our own lives I mean even in our own
lives it's going to accomplishwhat it's meant to accomplish.
It just might take a long timebecause, yeah, I keep making
stupid mistakes.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
It might even take your whole life, but I guess
what a great adventure, rightwhen?
Speaker 1 (40:46):
you when you see it that way it is.
It is, it's, it is theadventure that the Holy Spirit
leads you on.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yeah, Well, cool, Thanks for uh.
Thanks for helping me kind ofweed my garden here and seeing
what comes from this, Iappreciate it.
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
This was an unexpected topic, but okay, it's
good.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Well, everybody else, thanks for joining us and we
will see you next time.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
God bless.
Thank you, god bless.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.