November 15, 2025 • 65 mins
What if obedience in marriage isn’t about control, but about love that aims at the common good? We dig into the heart of a Catholic marriage through the living model of Christ and the Church—where respect means honoring dignity, headship means spiritual responsibility, and submission looks like strength poured out in service. The conversation gets real about how cultural baggage and family patterns confuse these ideas, and how grace in the sacrament empowers two people to move from me-versus-you into an honest, shared pursuit of holiness.
We unpack the daily work of mercy and justice—holding space for wounds without letting them harden into excuses. You’ll hear practical ways to communicate without escalating, to pause when emotions surge, and to replace accusation with clarity and care. We also talk about intimacy as the courage to be seen and received, how fear of rejection sabotages closeness, and why small habits—journaling, gratitude, daily examen, and simple prayer—retrain the heart to love well.
If trust has been damaged, we point to the shoreline scene of Christ and Peter: no shaming, just a sober question and an invitation to start again. That same grace can rebuild a home, brick by honest brick. We close with reflection prompts you can take to prayer: what you’re thankful for, where you hope to grow, and which hard topics deserve a gentle, patient return.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs hope, and leave a review so more couples can find tools for covenant love. Your voice helps others choose healing over transaction and communion over keeping score.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to the My Friend the Friar podcast, and
thanks for listening.
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Thanks again and God bless.
SPEAKER_02 (00:27):
Wait, did you hit record?
Yes, peace be with you.
And with your spirit.
I don't know what's going on.
Okay.
I hate technology.
I don't I don't understand.
Why?
Um, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me and myfriend the Friar Father, Steven
(00:48):
Sanchez, a discalist, Carmelite,priest.
Good evening, Father.
Good evening.
I feel like when we do this inthe morning, I'm pretty sleepy
still sometimes.
And I need coffee.
And I'm feeling pretty sleepynow.
(01:09):
Because it's later at the end ofthe day.
And then nothing is working theway it's supposed to work.
Um golly.
That's a snazzy shirt you goton, though.
SPEAKER_00 (01:25):
See, I thought I was gonna go out to the some
warehouse and then we're gonnaall meet.
Oh, yeah.
And do a podcast and drink beerand do shots and solve the
problems of the world.
SPEAKER_02 (01:41):
I wish we were uh gonna do or solve problems of
the world.
Um my buddy Anthony, um, he justhad a him and his wife just had
another baby.
They they are they have anotherbaby girl, and um she was born
yesterday morning.
SPEAKER_00 (01:58):
So no sleep for a few months.
SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
Yeah, yeah.
So all all of all of the plansof of getting a bunch of dudes
together to talk about stuffjust kind of out the window for
a minute.
We'll figure it out.
A few months, a few months.
Yeah.
I feel like I've been reallybusy.
SPEAKER_00 (02:21):
Um I think I'm in.
I'm in.
SPEAKER_02 (02:25):
Yeah.
Since we last talked, it's it'slots been going on.
Um but God is good.
And so speaking of God, speakingof that guy, uh last time we
were talking about respect andobedience, and I rightfully or
(02:49):
wrongfully, um, I merged thosetwo concepts together.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (02:54):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (02:55):
Um and it may it at least in my wee little brain, it
makes sense to kind of put themtogether.
Um and so today I wanted to uhwe want to take our previous
conversation about respect andobedience and try to um put it
(03:16):
into the context of specificallymarriage.
Um when I was I guess when I wasthinking about all these kinds
of things, I thought aboutmarriage specifically because
it's one of those I love I lovebeing married.
Um there's something about itthat it's so complicated, isn't
(03:38):
it?
Uh well, like you would know.
Uh yeah.
Father, I need you to tell mewhy my wife needs to be
respectful and obedient to me.
No.
Um, no, it's it's such acomplicated respect and
obedience is complicated, andmarriage is complicated, but I
love it.
(03:58):
And I love how it again, it'slike one of those things where
it doesn't quite mean what theworld always thinks respect and
obedience are supposed to looklike.
Um, at least in the context oflike Christian marriage, like it
there's nuance.
I like the nuance of it.
Um so anyway, so we often thinkwe think about obedience in
(04:19):
religious life, um, but likewhat does it mean when two
people they vow to become oneflesh?
Right?
Is obedience about domination,you know, one person over the
other, or is it instead aboutlike a mutual surrender to one
another?
(04:39):
Or somewhere in between?
What do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
So uh okay.
I don't know if um people aregonna respond to this or not.
Uh like m from a healthyunderstanding of what respect
and obedience means, you wouldput it in the context of
(05:04):
marriage.
And so we have to start thenwith a healthy understanding of
what marriage is supposed to be,right?
Yeah, yeah.
And so uh you can go back andlisten to our podcast on the
sacrament of service on marriageif you want to get a little bit
more into that.
Um I think the first thing thatwe have to do is again, in
(05:27):
marriage, the ideal or theexample that is held up to be
imitated or uh the analogy thatit that is held up is that
between Christ and the church.
So in the Christian marriage,well, in cra Catholic marriage,
I shouldn't say Christianmarriage, because for some
(05:49):
Christians it's not a sacrament.
So in Catholic marriage, it is asacrament, and thereby in the
marriage itself, there is thepresence of Christ and his
spirit that makes available tothe couple grace to be able to
(06:11):
live this new state because it'sno longer me and you, it is now
us in a larger community offaith and the impact that the
marriage has on the faith.
Okay, there's a lot of stuffthat we can get into, but we
don't have time to do that.
So again, so now going back toobedience and respect within a
(06:35):
Catholic sacramental marriage,now you go to the fact that the
analogy that is made is just asChrist surrendered himself unto
death for his spouse, for hisbride, us, the church, then we,
the church, are called to alsoto respond to that gift of self,
(07:01):
the outpouring of the self, thenwe, the spouse, are called to
give ourselves to Christ in thatsame outpouring.
Okay, that's the analogy.
That's that is the example,that's the ideal, that is what
we're striving for.
Now, when we come down to thetwo individuals, right, then
(07:24):
respect and obedience is goingto be tempered by their own
familial formation, personaljourneys, uh, cultures, um,
ethnicities, all these differentthings that are that are part of
the understanding of marriage,and how that comes into then
(07:46):
this informs their understandingof the sacrament that they're
engaging in, right?
The the the engagement of thesacrament of marriage, because
it is a continual sacrament thatis present in the world through
the marriage.
Okay.
Um, the misunderstanding ofobedience and the
(08:10):
misunderstanding of respect is alot.
And again, I was gonna say, myexperience is if it's a good
marriage, I really I just seethe a good marriage and I see
the relationship, right?
But when everybody comes to talkto father about the marriage,
they don't come to talk tofather about my marriage is so
(08:31):
wonderful and I'm so black.
They don't come tall as that.
They don't know, no, they cometo talk to us about all the
problems and the obstacles, theimpediments, and da-da-da-da.
So yeah, it's it's um that'spart of what you know I hear,
right?
Um, the obedience, it can be ifthe person is if the person is
(08:56):
not mature, then theirunderstanding of obedience is
you do what I say.
And that's not what this isabout.
That is not the obedience ofmarriage.
There has to be a continualdialogue, there has to be a
continual, it's a partnership,right?
And so, in the partnership, theobedience is what makes us a
(09:20):
better couple, what makes us abetter representation of this
love of Christ for his churchand the church for Christ.
How do we do that?
And so, of course, it's going toinvolve how we steward finances,
how we steward the children thatGod blesses us with, how we
steward our own relationship andgrowth, how we steward our
(09:42):
spirituality.
All those things then come intothis relationship because love
should be life-giving.
Love should be something that isorganic and dynamic in the
relationship, which means bothindividuals are challenging each
other to a deeper relationshipwith the Lord, a deeper
(10:04):
understanding of the self and agrowth of the self so that they
grow together in that marriage.
So do you think the would youwell?
SPEAKER_02 (10:18):
And it's it's funny too, because it's like you can
only really talk about thingswith broad brush strokes and and
everything, every situation isso unique.
So this is very unique, maybenot as applicable in in
application as like I'm thinkingin my head, but I'm trying to
think, what is the root of likeyou're saying that whenever
(10:39):
people come talk to you, it'salways a problem, right?
So the pro the root of thoseproblems, do you think it comes
from a misunderstanding of theoutpouring of Jesus that we're
called to imitate in marriage?
Do you think that's where itstarts?
Or do you think it startsinstead from like what you're
saying, the cultural, familialkind of things that we carry,
(11:02):
our baggage that we carry withus?
SPEAKER_00 (11:04):
Because the the grace is continuously available,
it's not it's not measured out,it it is a grace that is there
for us.
It is a matter of whether we arecapable of receiving the grace,
understanding the grace, andmaking the grace, um, actuating
the grace in our lives.
(11:25):
Um and it's always then aproblem in the individual's
understanding of relationship,what a relationship is, how a
relationship should be.
And of course, then that meansthe person's own understanding
(11:49):
of marriage.
Because we all come to uhunderstand what relationship
what relationships are about bythe way that we have experienced
them either in our formativeyears in our family, in our uh
family of origin, or we'venoticed we we culturally,
ethnically, we uh get exposed towhat we believe marriage should
(12:13):
be.
Right?
Um, for example, nowadays, umwhenever you see any type of
film or a TV series orsomething, uh of the marriage,
uh in the 50s, it was what thewife stayed home, the husband
(12:37):
went to work, yeah.
Leave it to beaver kind ofstuff.
Yeah, in a suit and a and a uhor whatever, right?
And then later on it became moreblue collar, but it's usually a
white collar per situation.
Mom was home in a a very prettyskirt and pearls and a very
pretty lace apron and wouldvacuum and would cook and always
(12:58):
had always made up and the hairdone.
And okay, and that was sort oflike the image that was given.
Like that's what's supposed tobe.
And he had little problems, yourlittle moral resolutions at the
end of the program or at the endof the movie and stuff, but um
how real was that?
(13:20):
I don't know.
I think a lot of people sufferedtrying to copy the copy the
ideal that was presented to himthat was not real.
SPEAKER_02 (13:32):
Yeah, and I guess what's what's funny is now if
you were to uh look at today,then it's kind of the reverse.
Marriage is this like sham andnobody is really married.
You know what I mean?
It's like uh this mutualagreement, but everybody just
kind of does whatever they wantto do anyway, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (13:54):
But I think part of it too, I think is, and I think
that's again, that is the thecultural um I guess a religious.
I really haven't seen any goodmovies that have a good uh
religious marriage, right?
Or where religion or faith ispart of the marriage.
(14:17):
I mean, in fact, when it is,it's sometimes it's a problem.
Religion is the problem.
Yeah.
And so it's not that.
I mean, it's a matter of again,uh, but you know, a good healthy
marriage is not it's not gonnasell.
I mean, it's not you can you'renot gonna make a movie.
I mean, a lot of people are notgonna get a movie to go see
that.
SPEAKER_02 (14:36):
Um, I think part of it, I guess, is so you think it
starts with the cultural part?
That's where the themisunderstanding probably
starts, is from our familiarfamilial and cultural baggage.
SPEAKER_00 (14:49):
Right, right, right, and it's getting past that and
trying to get past and I thinkpart of the the growth or the
life-giving aspect of themarriage is that Christ offers
them the grace to be able tolive this, but to be able to
live this commitment oftransparency and intimacy for
(15:15):
the other, towards the other,and that both seek the other's
growth and um development andmaturity.
SPEAKER_02 (15:28):
Yeah, and and in a s not just in a worldly personal
sense, but also in a spiritualsense, yeah, right?
SPEAKER_00 (15:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Because for us, uh yeah, Ishould say that.
See, it's my Catholic world.
I just assume everybodyunderstands that we're talking.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, the ultimate good is, youknow, to be with the Lord.
Uh the ultimate good is to, youknow, whatever you whatever word
you use to express thatsituation, whether it's heaven
(15:54):
or glory or whatever it mightbe, and the beatific vision,
that is to be that the marriageis meant to help each person in
the marriage to reach that finalconsummation and fullness of the
self, which can only be found inGod, right?
SPEAKER_02 (16:11):
Yeah.
So would you say like thatChristian obedience when we
apply it?
Well, so then so then what doyou what what do you think
obedience and respect really askof us when you apply it but to
to two spouses?
SPEAKER_00 (16:30):
The obedience and the respect, I think, the way I
see it, the way I understand it,is that the obedience and the
respect is to the common good,that is, to the common good of
the of the couple.
What is it's not what I want andwhat it's not what I want versus
what you want.
It's not I win and you lose.
(16:50):
It's we both have wants, we bothhave needs, we both have
desires, we're both wounded, wewere both, you know, in need of
redemption, sanation, uh, andcompletion.
How do we obey and respect thecall to that?
And in that call to growth andprogress in the relationship and
(17:14):
in the relationship with Christ.
Do we help each other, affirmeach other, and even challenge
each other with respect?
Challenge each other to thatgrowth, to look at the areas in
our lives, the shadow, uh, thesin, whatever you want to call
(17:34):
it, uh, to challenge ourselvesto not allow that to be a
shackle or an impediment to ourintimacy, our transparency, our
desire to love each other and tobe with each other and to be you
(17:54):
know each other's best friend,right?
And to desire growth anddevelopment.
But I think that's where the thethe respect and obedience.
I think sometimes what happensthey can become caught in the
ego, and it's about respectingme and obeying me.
Like, well, okay.
There should be some thereshould be some respect, uh,
mutual respect because of thedignity of the persons.
(18:16):
Now, obedience, what do you meanby that?
By obedience, do you mean likeI'm gonna be your mom or your
dad and you can do what I say?
Or yeah, or or is the obediencelike, no, the obedience is to to
listen to and to and to yield tothe call of growth and maturity.
I mean, we should obey that.
SPEAKER_02 (18:34):
And that that makes me think of uh the last time we
were talking about Saint TeresaVabila, how she was talking, or
she said, and I forget the exactquote, something about how
obedience is the quickest way toperfection or something like
that, right?
And it's but it's not obedienceto the person per se, it's
obedience to Christ first.
Yes, and in obedience to Christand imitating that outpouring,
(18:58):
yeah, right, that's where we getthat maturity, that's where we
get that growth.
And so also with like thatoutpouring, right, that we're
called to imitate, not just toour each other's brother and
sister in Christ, but is sp inthis context specifically in
marriage, part of Jesus' loveand his outpouring is mercy and
justice, right?
(19:19):
So, like where does where doesmercy and justice like meet up
in marriage in this obedience inthis respect?
SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
You're gonna get me to so much trouble.
Um because I'm gonna say I'mgonna say stuff and they're not
gonna want to hear what I haveto say, right?
SPEAKER_02 (19:39):
Uh no, this is good.
This is exactly everybody tunedin just to hear what you had to
say.
This is gonna be perfect.
SPEAKER_00 (19:47):
So the idea of mercy, okay, so all the virtues
come into this relationship.
So, in how mercy comes in intothe relationship to be merciful.
Um we can we can do a word studyand go back to the original
(20:07):
meaning of of what mercy is andhow that was translated from the
Hebrew to the Greek to the Latinand how we understand it now,
but we don't have time for that.
Um when we say mercy, it's notnecessarily the biblical
understanding of what mercy is.
When we say mercy, we understandwe usually want to convey the
(20:29):
idea of patience with someone,uh to be able to um not hold a
grudge, to be forgiving of them,right?
That's usually what we mean byby mercy.
And I would say in arelationship of marriage, part
(20:51):
of the balance of a goodrelationship is that I need to
be able to understand andempathize with my partner's
point of view, with my partner'swounds, with my partner's
history.
(21:11):
And part of the mercy is I thepatience and the virtue is that
I can't demand that they bewhere I want them to be.
The mercy is that I have to bepatient and gently challenge
when they're open to it.
Again, go back to virtue, andask them to grow and ask them to
(21:34):
develop, and if they're capableof receiving that right, and the
mercy is I need to just as Iwant my partner to be merciful
to me and to be kind to me, andto understand my wounds,
understand my difficulty inmaturing and in growing in that
relationship.
(21:54):
Because it is, it's the gift ofself to the other, which is
always going to be verydifficult because there's a lot
of things that get involved interms of fear of rejection and
you know, a lot of very uhnormal instinctual uh visceral
reactions to that.
Um but the mercy and the justiceis this the mercy is that I have
(22:17):
to be patient and kind with aperson because of their wounds,
and just because I they're justbecause they're not my wounds
doesn't mean that I don'trespect that, that I I have to
be empathetic to their wound, totheir difficulty.
The justice part is even thoughI respect their difficulty or
(22:43):
their wound or their umchallenge uh or the impediment,
the justice is, but that doesn'tmean I give them an out.
I mean the justice part is Godis still calling us, calling
you, calling me to wholeness, tosanation, to fullness, right?
(23:05):
And if there's amisunderstanding between us,
then you have to be careful asto not be judgmental and
condemning.
But the mercy and the justice isokay, I love you, but there is
still this area of growth thathas to happen in our
relationship if our relationshipis going to continue to grow and
develop, right?
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
Yeah, and gosh, that just sounds hard.
Yes, like it is very, very hard.
Right, because it's this what iswhat's right is right, and I'm
called to the same rightnessthat you're called to.
So, and and in the mercy, I'mcalled to the same mercy, but my
mercy is not dependent on yourmercy, correct.
(23:47):
And my justice is not dependenton your justice, right?
So it's so I don't have theability to say, well, I will
start treating you with respector whatever when you start
treating me with respect, right?
I don't get that.
No, it's not and that's that'snot what it's about.
SPEAKER_00 (24:06):
Yeah, and that's because then that's tit for tat.
And if it's tit for tat, thenyou're no longer in a marriage.
You're no longer in a covenant,you're you're in a you're in a
transactional relationship.
You you you've turned yourcovenant, your marriage
sacrament into a trantransaction.
SPEAKER_02 (24:24):
Yeah.
There's um, so I know like a lotof people now thinking about
this, going back to like theword obedience, obey, or in the
Bible, I love like you know,Paul says, submit to your
husbands, right?
And all that.
And people get scared of thatkind of language, they don't
like that kind of language.
There's this verse um in or Iguess verses whatever, 1 Peter
(24:47):
chapter 3.
And I love it.
I like this one even more, Ithink, than Paul's in
Corinthians.
Um, but it says, likewise, youwives, be submissive to your
husbands, so that some husbands,though they do not obey the
word, may be won without a wordby the behavior of their wives,
(25:12):
when they see irreverent andchaste behavior.
And I just I love that becauseit's kind of going to what we're
talking about, this mercy andthis justice.
Like, don't go nagging yourhusband until he finally starts
doing what Jesus wants him todo.
SPEAKER_00 (25:26):
You know, like it's interesting too that you you
brought this this this scriptureup because in that situation,
okay, what situation is headdressing?
So he as he's as Peter isaddressing this community or
this concern, right?
So obviously the wife is abeliever, the wife belongs to
the community, and the husbandis not.
(25:46):
Yep.
And so by your by yourChrist-like example, that is a
way of evangelizing him withoutnecessarily hitting him over the
head with a Bible, but that isthe way you evangelize is by
your conduct, by the way thatyou treat him.
(26:08):
And that is the word.
The word uh the the word is theexample that you're giving of
your Christ life, right?
SPEAKER_02 (26:19):
Yeah.
The the thing that's interestingto me to me in this too is that
he's telling them to besubmissive, and there's that
word people don't like nowadays,right?
But again, the marriage is thisour our understanding of
marriage is this outpouring ofJesus, right?
(26:41):
Uh, this imitation of theoutpouring of Jesus.
And what does Jesus do?
He in in a sense, he submits tothe apostles, he washes their
feet, right?
Like he makes himself lower andtells them, like, if you're you
you don't understand right whatI'm doing, but you will, right?
If you're not willing to bethis, then you can't follow me,
(27:04):
right?
SPEAKER_00 (27:04):
Right, and I think part of it too is you know the
within Catholic spirituality,the husband is should be
analogous to or should be ashadow of or an image of,
whichever word you want to use,of Christ.
And so he should be the head uhhe should be the spiritual head
(27:27):
of the household.
Uh, again, not not not a not aNazi Catholic, uh but as a
spiritual head of the householdto actually be empathetic and
care for the spiritual growthand well-being of everyone in
the family doesn't mean thatagain, you obey me because I'm
(27:49):
your dad.
Like, no, that's not what it'sabout.
It's about are you leading thehousehold?
So here, so since the husband isnot, the husband is not a
spiritual head, he says, besubmissive.
Yes, this is difficult, yes, youhave to be submissive to him.
(28:09):
But by submitting to him, hesees your virtue, and by your
virtuous life, he will come tounderstand.
And when he comes to faith, thenhe will take the role as
spiritual head as Christ in themodel and image of Christ.
And so, yeah, you have to becareful about some of this
stuff.
It's contextualized, you have tocontextualize it and understand
(28:31):
who is he talking to, why is hesaying this, and what is the
reason for this.
SPEAKER_02 (28:36):
And what's so good about it though, too, is uh, and
not just about this, but theBible period, um, is the
timelessness of it.
How many, how many quote unquoteCatholic w marriages are out
there where the man is not thethe spiritual leader of the
family?
Right, and so so and and thenhow many marriages are out there
(29:00):
where the the husband doesn'tbelieve at all?
Or the wife doesn't believe, butthe husband does, right?
Like this is applicable to ourtime, yes, period.
And so that's what's sointeresting to me about so it's
like, yeah, you have tounderstand the context, but then
you have to understandtheologically that what mercy
and what justice and whatobedience and what submission
is.
Like, what are we actually beingcalled to do in this moment in
(29:24):
this marriage so that we canactually live it out?
So like I can see thenobedience, it becomes like an
act of love.
Yes.
It's not about whose power likea power hierarchy, like you're
saying.
Yes.
It's an act of love.
SPEAKER_00 (29:45):
And one of the things, for example, one of the
scripture verses that I alwaysused to sort of like I again.
My my psychology education kindof All of a sudden the the flag,
right?
There's a flag, like uh whenChrist says, um what is it?
(30:11):
If you love me, you'll obey me,or something like that.
You something like right, and Iand it always there's I still
have a visceral reactionwhenever I read that because
there's like oh that's not youknow that's not healthy, that's
not a healthy relationship,right?
So like that's my first reactionto it.
But what he means is in obeyingChrist, what does it mean to
(30:34):
obey Christ?
If Christ then is as true Godand true man as the example uh
exemplar of that marriagebetween God and man, and the
fullness of man is found in hismarriage to God, to obey Christ
is what is to actually listen toand respond to that greater
(30:59):
design that I am called to.
Um most creatures don't goagainst their nature.
We're the only creature thatgoes against our nature, or what
uh you know what we're meant tobe, right?
A dog is not gonna go againstits dogness, a cat is not gonna
go against its catness, but mancan go against his humanity, his
(31:24):
humaneness.
And so the obedience is listento and and respond to that which
you are called to be, and theobedience to Christ.
It's not just like, okay, youknow, take up your cross, like
and be nice, and you know, youknow, be yeah, yeah, all those
virtues and stuff, but those areall those are all accidentals or
(31:47):
secondaries to the real the realcaller, the real um being, and
that is to to be like Christ, tobe perfect in that charity, to
be perfect in that obedience, tobe perfect in that um
life-giving way of being thatgives life to others and is
(32:11):
concerned for the life of othersto to give others life.
SPEAKER_02 (32:15):
Yeah, it makes me think too of um that makes
sense.
Yeah, no, it does.
It does.
And it makes me think of howGod's law isn't it God's law is
designed to give you thefullness of life, yes, not to
like keep you from doingsomething dumb necessarily.
(32:36):
It's like, no, if you do this,you will have life in its
fullness, right?
And so that's why Jesus says,like when when the the one guy
says, What's the greatestcommandment?
He says to love the Lord withall your heart, mind, and
strength, right?
Um it's you yeah, I love God,but if you don't obey God, then
(32:56):
it's like what you're getting atis you're not internalizing and
understanding and responding toit.
Yeah, so that's yeah, that's howit's all resonating with me.
So that's really interesting.
Um it's really interesting.
So, okay, so we talk a lot aboutwe talk a lot, period.
But we talk a lot about how youknow we're always need in need
(33:18):
of healing, right?
Um, we're constantly beinghealed, we're constantly in need
of healing.
Um how do we honor our spousewhile also honoring our own like
boundaries and healing?
Because like we just got donesaying we we bring our own
(33:38):
baggage into this, our ownwounds, our own whatever, right?
So, like, because sometimes thehealing that we're that we are
in need of are from our past,something we brought into the
relationship, and sometimes it'sfrom things we inflict on
ourselves, right?
Um, or things our spousesinflict on us, right?
Right.
So we're all wounded people, allrelationships are messy.
(34:02):
Um we've probably hurt ourspouses, right?
We've caused wounds to ourspouses and they've hurt us.
Yes.
So it's like I think we shouldbe willing to spend some time on
this part, right?
What you know, some of thewounds we inflict on each other
aren't comparatively like thatbig of a deal.
But I think a lot of the timesthat we the wounds that we can
(34:27):
purposefully or are oraccidentally inflict on our
spouses and and to other justanyone in general, like in
relationship, becauserelationship is messy.
Sometimes these wounds arereally deep and traumatic,
right?
So how do we I don't know, howdo we navigate that fact?
Because I don't want to be likethe kind of person, stop
(34:51):
demanding things of me.
I need healing.
You know what I mean?
Like I need to do that.
Oh no, no, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_00 (34:55):
You can't you can't stop the process, right?
Because then you're never gonnado anything because you, you
know, you're never gonna be,it's all a process.
It's it's it's a continualgrowth.
And that's part of it.
Part of it is it's a continualgrowth and it's a continual work
for each individual, andespecially in a marriage, it's
continual work for both persons.
And so I think part of thematurity that is required, or
(35:24):
the growth that is required toactually grow in marriage, or
for the marriage to grow, umthere has to be an ability to
actually speak to one another asto what it is that you're
experiencing and learning how tospeak to each other without
being accusatory, without beingjudging, without being
(35:46):
condemning, and saying, okay,like okay, this is so um if I
say something or do somethingthat is hurtful unintentionally,
right, I un unintentionallytrigger you, and you are hurt by
(36:12):
what I say or by what I do ordon't say or don't do, and then
your reaction is to becomedefensive or to be um offensive,
right?
You go on the off you attack.
SPEAKER_02 (36:29):
Yeah, some people kind of jab back make that
space.
SPEAKER_00 (36:32):
Right, you attack and go, okay, now that already,
okay, that's already you'realready talking about escalating
the situation, right?
Instead of the person that'slike, okay, I need to walk away
and think about this and comeback and go, like, you know,
this thing that you said or thatyou didn't say, or this thing
(36:53):
that you did or didn't do, Ifelt whatever.
Right.
And the other person goes like,I didn't know, I'm sorry, I
wasn't even paying attentionthat I said, or did I that was
not at all my intention, and soto clear the air, right?
(37:13):
But I think for a lot of people,it's the inability or the
unwillingness to enter into thatspace of transparency and and
and vulnerability, right?
And that's that's where thegrowth is, and that's where the
respect and the boundaries are.
Because, for example, if someoneis like, you know, um, I for me,
(37:40):
personally, me, Steven, um, mylove language is a is very
tactile.
I'm like, I'm from a verytactile family, and so some
people get weirded out by it.
Uh but that's whatever.
Uh and so we're I'm verytactile, but also for me quality
(38:02):
time one-on-one time, that thatis very is again, is it the way
that I show that I love somebodyis by spending time with you
one-on-one.
That's for me, right?
And for other people, right?
It might be acts of service.
For example, I have a very closefriend of mine who I love very
dearly.
Um, and his love language isacts of service.
(38:23):
So he's always doing stuff forme.
And and you know, he's alwaysdoing stuff for me, and always
doing stuff for me.
And I and I try to respond,okay, like, okay, so he's not
very tactile, so he doesn't liketo be touched.
So I respect that, right?
We do spend time together, butum, I try to I try to do
something for him.
Like, okay, so if your languageis to do acts of service, let me
(38:46):
try to do acts of service foryou, and just absolutely
refuses, just does not allowwhen not allowing me to do
anything.
And I get very confused, right?
And so, so part of it is okay.
So, here we go back to thisboundary stuff, right?
This boundary uh and healing.
And so I think part of it isrespect that wherever he is, and
(39:09):
say, okay, um, you know, I carefor you.
And so with words, I you know, Icare for you, very important to
me, da-da-da.
And so I think in arelationship, that relationship
that we have, I think can beawkward in that you want to
respect their boundaries, youwant to respect where they're
(39:30):
at, but at the same time, you'regoing like, but you have to help
me.
And he's not, he's does notspeak about his feelings.
He that he he's a kind ofclassic dude, classic Mexican
dude.
Uh yeah, so right.
So, like, like, okay, so I havea hard time trying to understand
(39:52):
where we're at.
And again, and the reason Ibring this up is like it's very
much like in any relationship,especially in a marriage where
you're committed, some peoplecannot or do not know how to,
they haven't learned how to nametheir emotions and what they're
feeling.
(40:12):
And it's it's a very uh scarything for them because they
don't know what they're feelingbecause they were never educated
as to that.
And when you try to have aconversation with somebody and
you're trying to share whereyou're at and what you're
feeling, and your desires, andthe desire for intimacy and
transparency, and the spiritualgrowth and the growth together
(40:36):
in this uh life-givingrelationship, if they don't have
that capacity, then again, foryou, you have to be careful
about not demanding.
You have to be again honoringgoes back to the mercy, the
mercy, right?
And there's some healing thathas to be there.
And so, are you are both of youwilling to work that?
Are you willing to help thisother person start feel safe
(41:00):
enough to start trying to namethings and define things and to
help them?
That again, that's part of thehealing that has to happen as
well.
So each each individual isunique, but when you have two
unique individuals trying tocome together in a relationship
of marriage, of intimacy andtransparency, there's a lot of
(41:22):
variables that come into playthere.
And there's a sometimes there'sblack boxes in that, like, I
have absolutely no idea wherethe hell this is coming from,
but this is the way I'm feeling,and I don't know why I'm feeling
that way, and so, or why I feel,you know, and one of the big
things that sometimes I find inindividuals uh is there is uh a
(41:44):
tendency to sabotage themselves,to sabotage their relationships
or to sabotage their life,right?
They just they don't believethat they're lovable, they don't
believe that these are deservedjoy or love or happiness or
relationship or or the idea likeeverything is going too well.
So I'm gonna I'm going to screwit up because I would rather
(42:05):
screw it up than have it happento me, you know, well
unexpectedly.
This way I I I'm in control.
I'm in control of thedestruction.
Like, okay, that's prettyscrewed up, but yeah, we'll need
to do that.
SPEAKER_02 (42:20):
You see the logic, yeah.
So so what's what's interestingis you're talking about all this
um and how big of uh roleintimacy um it is like and w we
might can do a whole episodejust on intimacy because it's
it's part of this is we havethis innate desire, we want to
(42:43):
be known, we want to be seen, wewant to be received, yeah,
right.
And um equally in in and that ispart of our healing to become
known, to become received,right?
But we don't know how to receiveeither.
SPEAKER_00 (43:00):
And we're exactly and we don't know and we're
afraid, afraid, and we're afraidof making it known that I want
to be seen and I want to bereceived because we're we're
afraid of rejection.
SPEAKER_02 (43:13):
Yeah, and well, because imagine if if I if I'm
feeling a certain way and I goto my wife and I say, Hey, I'm
feeling this way, and she doesnot respond well, right?
I'm I don't ever want to tellher whatever again, you know,
because like that blew up in myface, and so then that just
everything cascades downhill.
Yep.
Right?
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (43:33):
Um yeah, so and that's where the obedience to
the call of development has tocome in.
Like I need to keep at thisbecause this is what God is
asking of us.
SPEAKER_02 (43:46):
So what so this this call to mutual submission and
like what's something thatpeople can do that can train
their heart to train their mindto be more Christ-like, to be
more merciful, to be morepatient, to to uh to share
(44:12):
themselves without fear ofrejection, to receive the other
person without rejecting them onaccident, right?
Like, what are maybe some ofthese things that we can do?
SPEAKER_00 (44:24):
First, it'd be a matter of becoming aware of
those fears, right?
Becoming aware of those woundsthat we all have, because we're
all we all suffer from the fall.
So the consequences of originalsin affect us all.
Um and I would say that becomingaware of it, and secondly, I
(44:48):
would say bring it to prayer.
Just come to the Lord in quietprayer and just say, I'm aware
of this, this is a fear I have.
And if you're afraid of beingtransparent, then you're gonna
have a hard time see evenpraying about it because you
don't want God to know about it,even though He knows.
But it's a matter of reallyactually facing it and naming it
(45:08):
so that it's not that um, asJung would say, that the power
of the shadow, the unspoken partof those things that we're
afraid of and those things thatthat we don't want to face.
Um, I would say you spend time.
Yeah, because one of the thingsthat John of the Cross talks
about is yeah, he sayseventually in the spiritual
(45:30):
life, it is a matter ofstanding, standing naked before
God.
And by that he means completelyand totally transparent, aware
of all my deficiencies and of mygifts.
To stand naked before God is tobe me and to be unafraid and to
know that I'm loved and thateverything about me, those
(45:51):
things that I worry about, mydefects, my limitations, they do
not affect his love for me.
And that is very freeing.
And then that helps me toactually understand, and this is
maybe maybe this is part of thethe psyche of the modern man.
They tend to fall into the trapof equating brokenness,
(46:15):
woundedness, sinfulness,failures as definitive of who
they are.
And that's the lie.
That's the lie of the enemy.
My failures do not define me, mysin does not define me, my
addictions, my obsessions do notdefine me.
What defines me is that JesusChrist suffered and died for me
(46:35):
because God the Father loves meand I am his beloved child.
That is what defines me.
SPEAKER_02 (46:41):
So is there something that something we can
do?
Um like you know the the wholephrase like fake it till you
make it, right?
Like, or or exercise, like doyou just go keep doing the thing
until it kind of becomes secondnature?
SPEAKER_00 (46:57):
Is there something it becomes real?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:59):
Yeah.
So can is there something we cando that can help us to uh either
in prayer or or toward ourspouse that can help us fight
against the lies or to learn toreceive the other person?
Um not necessarily withoutnecessarily like going to
counseling.
(47:20):
I think counseling is great.
It is.
Um but I think having a good,open, healthy relationship with
your spouse or your best friendor whatever, those are equally
as helpful because you there'ssomeone who is receiving you.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (47:33):
And I think it goes back to the whole idea of the
the healthier, the healthier youget, the healthier your
relationships get, the healthieryour social circles get, the
health everything just startsgetting better and better the
healthier you get.
And I think one of the things isto I would say probably the
(47:54):
easiest thing would be justjournal.
Just journal everything, justget it all out on paper, you
know, just vomit it all out onpaper and and just keep doing
it's very cathartic to do that.
I don't I don't journal.
I can't, I don't have thediscipline because I do it all
in my head of being theintrovert that I am.
I I do all my processing in myhead, in my heart.
(48:16):
Yeah.
Um, so I don't do that.
But a lot of people find it veryhelpful to be able to actually
get it out, get it out, just toget it out.
And so sometimes even if you ifyou're somebody that tends to
have to talk it out, then yeah,go talk it out with a friend or
just talk it out by yourself outwith God in the chapel or out in
(48:36):
the out in the woods and justtalk it out.
Just get comfortable with whoyou are and where you are, and
and know that God desires yourwell-being and your fullness and
your wholeness, and that hewants your healing.
I mean, that's his desire.
That's the whole ministry ofJesus on history of his earthly
(48:58):
ministry, is healing.
I mean, he wants us to be whole.
SPEAKER_02 (49:02):
Is it is it helpful to do something like I don't
know, set up a like a uh whereyou I'm gonna tell my wife
something and she doesn't needto respond.
All she goes is like, okay, Ilove you.
And that's it, like that's theend, right?
So it's like learning to justreceive the thing without
(49:24):
engaging it, right?
Or you know what I mean?
Is there things like that thatyou've because I'm I'm thinking
if I go talk to God, God's justgonna receive it.
He's not gonna, I hope, he's notgonna smite me on the spot.
But you know what I mean?
Like it so are there things thatwe can do to help us in that
maturity of receiving the otherperson and helping them to feel
(49:48):
safe in whatever it is they'retrying to do.
SPEAKER_00 (49:52):
As you said, this is messy.
Relationships are messy, and ittakes practice, practice,
practice, practice at you know,uh not giving up and just keep
practice and okay, and sothere's a misunderstanding,
there's a misconception, I wastotally wrong.
So, okay, let's let's pick up uhand let's try again.
(50:17):
And so I think part of it isgiving yourself permission,
again, giving yourselfpermission to make mistakes and
allowing the other person in therelationship to make mistakes.
You know, everybody's learning.
This is not something you justyou just fall into.
It it is a learning experienceand it's an experience of
growth.
And and and in all healing,there's always going to be pain
(50:39):
because healing is painful.
And so being able to accompanyeach other and to be patient
with each other in that healingprocess.
SPEAKER_02 (50:46):
Yeah.
Something that I that I've umbeen doing for I guess as long
as I can remember now in mymarriage is whenever there's
something that's frustrating me,I go talk to God about it first.
Yes, it's always good to be.
Yeah.
And then the then before I well,and every day, literally every
(51:10):
day, um, because I do like anexamination of conscience or con
Conscience, yes.
Conscience.
Yeah, a little um it's late.
Uh every yeah, every day kind ofthing.
Um, but I make it a point to tryto uh or I've made it a point,
so I do this every day to take auh a disposition of gratitude.
And so I try to find somethingthat I'm grateful for in that
(51:35):
day from my wife or my daughter,right?
Kind of thing.
So something that did it couldbe something as simple as like a
food thing that they gave me orsomething like that.
Like anything.
SPEAKER_00 (51:45):
I think a an important tool or technique or
word of caution is do not, donot, do not engage in discussion
if you are feeling emotional.
Because nothing gets acrossother than the emotion.
(52:08):
And so if you're feeling angryor hurt or whatever, wait until
that is passed.
And if it takes a while, thenwait until it's passed.
Because if you start speakingand then you start speaking from
your emotion, nothing is gonnaget done.
Nothing is if in fact it you therelationship may go backwards,
(52:28):
uh, step take take steps backbecause no matter what you're
doing, the other person does nothear anything that you're
saying.
All that is registering to themis your emotion, and that is not
helpful.
SPEAKER_02 (52:43):
Yeah.
So what so let's say one personin the relationship is more
mature or or or more healthythan the other, right?
How do they well, how does inthat situation, or maybe either
maybe you're the more healthy,maybe you're the least healthy.
How do you how do you avoidweaponizing things that are
(53:07):
good, like that you you're in abetter place, or scripture, like
how do you avoid weaponizingthings like that, or you know
what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00 (53:18):
When you're working with the with your spouse the
idea of weaponizing is already avery negative sign.
You should not, if you'retempted to weaponize, to feel
that you're better, or to feellike, aha, yeah, I'm going to
(53:38):
win.
That is that's wrong.
That that's a bad attitude, andthere needs to be uh an attitude
check on that.
Like, why would you feel whywould you be tempted to feel
that you're superior or thatyou're winning or you're going
to win or that you're better?
Like, no, those are those arethose are not helpful or good or
(54:05):
positive.
SPEAKER_02 (54:07):
Uh so probably just a sign that you need to like
you're saying, check somethingabout yourself.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (54:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (54:14):
Yeah.
What about like when whenbecause a lot of us have
relationships um that have likeI was saying at the beginning,
we have these wounds that we'veinflicted on one another, kind
of thing, and we're trying toheal.
But how how and I know this is avery careful thing, like like
right, there's always thiscaution here, but how do we
(54:37):
practice this mutual respect,obedience, mercy, justice with
our spouse when that trust inthe relationship has been
damaged?
SPEAKER_00 (54:49):
Oh, that is very hard.
SPEAKER_02 (54:51):
Um because just because just because our they've
betrayed our trust or hurt ortrust or whatever, it doesn't
mean again, it's not thistransactional thing.
I don't now have the right to godo whatever.
SPEAKER_00 (55:03):
No, no, but I think again, it goes back to the
unique history and perspectiveof the individual in terms of
being able to forgive and ableto start again or to rebuild
trust, right?
Um when it comes to trust, trustis something that you give
someone, it is a gift that yougive someone.
(55:26):
If they break that trust or ifthey wound that trust, it's not
something that they do notautomatically have a right to it
again.
They have to prove themselves tobe trustworthy.
They have to prove themselvesthat they're they are capable of
maintaining and keeping thetroth or the truth or the trust.
(55:50):
Um, and again, it has to do withhow sensitive the other person
is, how wounded the other personis, how sensitive or wounded is
the person that that wounded oror broke or wounded the trust.
I mean, there's a lot of thingsthat have to go on there.
Uh, and it's a matter of, again,it should not be a zero-sum
(56:13):
game.
It's not a matter of, okay, youlose, I win.
No, it has nothing to do withthat.
It's like, okay, so why do Ihave this thing about trust?
And why am I acting or reactingthis way?
It's a matter of, you know,really do some deep diving, and
there's probably some room forhealing there as well.
(56:35):
Um and the respect, again, goingback to respect again, so the
respect of that sensitivesensitive area, that wound,
right?
And so I would take a uni itwould be, I can't I don't want
to say there's a generalapproach to it, because it
(56:59):
really depends on the twoindividuals and their
understanding of trust and whatthey expect and what their
expectations are.
Um, and again, their history andtheir history of relationships
um and fears and traumas andstuff like that, right?
SPEAKER_02 (57:17):
Well, in in in a Catholic sense, in marriage, and
part of why learning to rebuildthat trust and and maybe how
obedience and and God's gracecan be a part of rebuilding that
brokenness in marriage is we wedon't for us uh marriage is it's
forever, right?
Like it's till death do us part.
SPEAKER_00 (57:38):
It's not forever, it's till death.
SPEAKER_02 (57:40):
No, sorry, sorry, yeah, till till death do us
part.
So we're not Mormons.
Um yeah.
So we um I would say we don'tget a we don't get a at a we
don't get to just give up andwalk away.
SPEAKER_00 (57:53):
No.
I've I think one of the I thinkkey elements to look at would be
Christ's um reconciliation withPeter after the resurrection.
Right.
So after be after Peter betrayedhim and denied him three times.
And you know, and Christ is inthis dialogue, a very intimate
(58:17):
setting.
It's yeah, it's you know, dark,they're sitting by a camp.
They sit around the fire.
Yeah.
Uh he's just fed them uh againanother sign of intimacy and
communion.
And then they're in they're inthe dialogue of like, okay, do
you love me?
Right.
(58:37):
And so like, damn.
Why did you have to go there?
So yeah, and there's a sign, anduh, there's there's an out
there, there's something thereyou can look at and go like,
okay.
There it's respectful.
See, Christ was not accusatory,he did not accuse him, he did
(58:58):
not bring in and throw it in hisface.
Like, do you love me?
And do you and basically saying,Do you understand what love is?
And are you willing to grow inwhat that means, right?
And that understanding.
So yeah, it's possible.
Um but again, you know, PeterPeter did not have a right to
demand Jesus to trust himbecause he had wounded that
(59:20):
trust.
But it was Christ who basicallyoffers him again that
relationship of intimacy, butasks him, Do you understand what
this means?
SPEAKER_02 (59:30):
Yeah, for for myself, it's always been helpful
to reflect on um, you know, I amthe I am an image bearer of God,
so is my wife.
Right?
I am broken, so is my wife.
God has been infinitely patientpatient with me, right?
And uh in going to Corinthiansnow, like she's she's uh I'm
(59:56):
supposed to be obedient.
The way like Christ is, right?
To death.
Right.
So it's almost that scandalizinglove that it is like so
shocking.
Like, what are you doing?
Why do you still love me?
Right.
Right.
And and so trying to take thatapproach has always been helpful
(01:00:22):
when it comes to healing.
Right.
I think and and and allowingGod's grace to to enter into
those wounded places.
You know.
It's good.
I told you I love I love beingmarried.
I love uh I love my wife and myfamily.
I think it's the it's been uhlike the truest sense of the
(01:00:44):
word, it is awesome to bemarried, but it's hard.
So um okay, how about some uhreflection kind of questions?
Like what are what are somethings that we can all just kind
of take to prayer or ponder ifwe're if we're married.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:04):
I would say in in any relationship, especially
marriage, in any relationship.
What are those things in therelationship that you're most
thankful for?
What are those things in therelationship that you wish could
be better?
What are those things in therelationship that you find
(01:01:27):
difficult?
And really just personally justthink about those and ask
yourself, so why do I really amI happy about this?
Why does this make me joyful?
What is it about this that makesme joyful, right?
And to find the root cause ofthat, where that's connected to
(01:01:49):
and why it makes you feelwhatever it is that makes you
feel, right?
And to be able to share that andto be able to um thank God and
thank your partner for that.
And then when it comes to theother things, the areas of
growth, I think that's where wewould go to next is the the
(01:02:09):
being able to come together inwithout being accusatory or or
condemning.
These are some areas of someareas of growth that I would
like us to see if we canapproach or we can even just
talk about it first without evenhaving any action items, right?
(01:02:31):
But just to even talk about howthis makes us feel or perceive
or to understand therelationship, how this how this
colors the relationship that Ihave, right?
And then finally, you know,those difficult areas.
Um and I put it last because Ithink if you establish
(01:02:53):
appreciation first, and if inappreciation you ask for growth,
and the growth is appreciatedbecause it's coming from a place
of love, then you can talk aboutthe difficult difficult things
later uh because it's you'vealready established this um
healthy appreciation, right?
(01:03:14):
And the desire for growth andthe difficult areas.
Okay.
Uh, and then again, being ableto examine ourselves why they're
difficult.
What is it, my is it anexpectation that I have?
Is it a is it a an impossibleexpectation?
Where did those metrics comefrom?
There's a lot of you know thingsthat they can get involved in,
but I think it's just startingwith really being thankful and
(01:03:39):
appreciative of the good and thejoy and the blessing that is
present.
And I think if you start fromthere, everything else kind of
grows from from that.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03:50):
Yeah.
I I think it's it's also helpfulto um pay a little bit of
attention in in the the log inyour own eye before you s start
looking at the spec in yourspouses.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04:03):
Yes, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (01:04:05):
Yeah.
Well, before we wrap it up, um,I do want to remind everybody
that you Carmelites have figuredout, you friars have figured out
a way for people to make somedonations online.
Yes.
Um and so the the link is downin the show notes, and um, you
can do one-time donations, youcan do monthly donations.
(01:04:28):
Um so if you uh peripherally,please would consider supporting
them financially.
And if you're unable to, it'sabsolutely fine.
Uh, please support them withyour prayers.
Yes, that's most important.
Start with prayer first, always.
Yes.
All right, Father.
Thank you for this.
I love you.
Love you.
Um, have a good night.
Thanks.
Yeah, and uh for everyone whojoined us, thanks for joining
(01:04:51):
us, and we will see you nexttime.
God bless.
Thank you.
God bless you.
Welcome to the My Friend the Friar podcast, and
thanks for listening.
If you like My Friend the Friarand want to support us, please
consider subscribing orfollowing us if you haven't
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of new episodes when theyrelease.
Thanks again and God bless.
SPEAKER_02 (00:27):
Wait, did you hit record?
Yes, peace be with you.
And with your spirit.
I don't know what's going on.
Okay.
I hate technology.
I don't I don't understand.
Why?
Um, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me and myfriend the Friar Father, Steven
(00:48):
Sanchez, a discalist, Carmelite,priest.
Good evening, Father.
Good evening.
I feel like when we do this inthe morning, I'm pretty sleepy
still sometimes.
And I need coffee.
And I'm feeling pretty sleepynow.
(01:09):
Because it's later at the end ofthe day.
And then nothing is working theway it's supposed to work.
Um golly.
That's a snazzy shirt you goton, though.
SPEAKER_00 (01:25):
See, I thought I was gonna go out to the some
warehouse and then we're gonnaall meet.
Oh, yeah.
And do a podcast and drink beerand do shots and solve the
problems of the world.
SPEAKER_02 (01:41):
I wish we were uh gonna do or solve problems of
the world.
Um my buddy Anthony, um, he justhad a him and his wife just had
another baby.
They they are they have anotherbaby girl, and um she was born
yesterday morning.
SPEAKER_00 (01:58):
So no sleep for a few months.
SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
Yeah, yeah.
So all all of all of the plansof of getting a bunch of dudes
together to talk about stuffjust kind of out the window for
a minute.
We'll figure it out.
A few months, a few months.
Yeah.
I feel like I've been reallybusy.
SPEAKER_00 (02:21):
Um I think I'm in.
I'm in.
SPEAKER_02 (02:25):
Yeah.
Since we last talked, it's it'slots been going on.
Um but God is good.
And so speaking of God, speakingof that guy, uh last time we
were talking about respect andobedience, and I rightfully or
(02:49):
wrongfully, um, I merged thosetwo concepts together.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (02:54):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (02:55):
Um and it may it at least in my wee little brain, it
makes sense to kind of put themtogether.
Um and so today I wanted to uhwe want to take our previous
conversation about respect andobedience and try to um put it
(03:16):
into the context of specificallymarriage.
Um when I was I guess when I wasthinking about all these kinds
of things, I thought aboutmarriage specifically because
it's one of those I love I lovebeing married.
Um there's something about itthat it's so complicated, isn't
(03:38):
it?
Uh well, like you would know.
Uh yeah.
Father, I need you to tell mewhy my wife needs to be
respectful and obedient to me.
No.
Um, no, it's it's such acomplicated respect and
obedience is complicated, andmarriage is complicated, but I
love it.
(03:58):
And I love how it again, it'slike one of those things where
it doesn't quite mean what theworld always thinks respect and
obedience are supposed to looklike.
Um, at least in the context oflike Christian marriage, like it
there's nuance.
I like the nuance of it.
Um so anyway, so we often thinkwe think about obedience in
(04:19):
religious life, um, but likewhat does it mean when two
people they vow to become oneflesh?
Right?
Is obedience about domination,you know, one person over the
other, or is it instead aboutlike a mutual surrender to one
another?
(04:39):
Or somewhere in between?
What do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
So uh okay.
I don't know if um people aregonna respond to this or not.
Uh like m from a healthyunderstanding of what respect
and obedience means, you wouldput it in the context of
(05:04):
marriage.
And so we have to start thenwith a healthy understanding of
what marriage is supposed to be,right?
Yeah, yeah.
And so uh you can go back andlisten to our podcast on the
sacrament of service on marriageif you want to get a little bit
more into that.
Um I think the first thing thatwe have to do is again, in
(05:27):
marriage, the ideal or theexample that is held up to be
imitated or uh the analogy thatit that is held up is that
between Christ and the church.
So in the Christian marriage,well, in cra Catholic marriage,
I shouldn't say Christianmarriage, because for some
(05:49):
Christians it's not a sacrament.
So in Catholic marriage, it is asacrament, and thereby in the
marriage itself, there is thepresence of Christ and his
spirit that makes available tothe couple grace to be able to
(06:11):
live this new state because it'sno longer me and you, it is now
us in a larger community offaith and the impact that the
marriage has on the faith.
Okay, there's a lot of stuffthat we can get into, but we
don't have time to do that.
So again, so now going back toobedience and respect within a
(06:35):
Catholic sacramental marriage,now you go to the fact that the
analogy that is made is just asChrist surrendered himself unto
death for his spouse, for hisbride, us, the church, then we,
the church, are called to alsoto respond to that gift of self,
(07:01):
the outpouring of the self, thenwe, the spouse, are called to
give ourselves to Christ in thatsame outpouring.
Okay, that's the analogy.
That's that is the example,that's the ideal, that is what
we're striving for.
Now, when we come down to thetwo individuals, right, then
(07:24):
respect and obedience is goingto be tempered by their own
familial formation, personaljourneys, uh, cultures, um,
ethnicities, all these differentthings that are that are part of
the understanding of marriage,and how that comes into then
(07:46):
this informs their understandingof the sacrament that they're
engaging in, right?
The the the engagement of thesacrament of marriage, because
it is a continual sacrament thatis present in the world through
the marriage.
Okay.
Um, the misunderstanding ofobedience and the
(08:10):
misunderstanding of respect is alot.
And again, I was gonna say, myexperience is if it's a good
marriage, I really I just seethe a good marriage and I see
the relationship, right?
But when everybody comes to talkto father about the marriage,
they don't come to talk tofather about my marriage is so
(08:31):
wonderful and I'm so black.
They don't come tall as that.
They don't know, no, they cometo talk to us about all the
problems and the obstacles, theimpediments, and da-da-da-da.
So yeah, it's it's um that'spart of what you know I hear,
right?
Um, the obedience, it can be ifthe person is if the person is
(08:56):
not mature, then theirunderstanding of obedience is
you do what I say.
And that's not what this isabout.
That is not the obedience ofmarriage.
There has to be a continualdialogue, there has to be a
continual, it's a partnership,right?
And so, in the partnership, theobedience is what makes us a
(09:20):
better couple, what makes us abetter representation of this
love of Christ for his churchand the church for Christ.
How do we do that?
And so, of course, it's going toinvolve how we steward finances,
how we steward the children thatGod blesses us with, how we
steward our own relationship andgrowth, how we steward our
(09:42):
spirituality.
All those things then come intothis relationship because love
should be life-giving.
Love should be something that isorganic and dynamic in the
relationship, which means bothindividuals are challenging each
other to a deeper relationshipwith the Lord, a deeper
(10:04):
understanding of the self and agrowth of the self so that they
grow together in that marriage.
So do you think the would youwell?
SPEAKER_02 (10:18):
And it's it's funny too, because it's like you can
only really talk about thingswith broad brush strokes and and
everything, every situation isso unique.
So this is very unique, maybenot as applicable in in
application as like I'm thinkingin my head, but I'm trying to
think, what is the root of likeyou're saying that whenever
(10:39):
people come talk to you, it'salways a problem, right?
So the pro the root of thoseproblems, do you think it comes
from a misunderstanding of theoutpouring of Jesus that we're
called to imitate in marriage?
Do you think that's where itstarts?
Or do you think it startsinstead from like what you're
saying, the cultural, familialkind of things that we carry,
(11:02):
our baggage that we carry withus?
SPEAKER_00 (11:04):
Because the the grace is continuously available,
it's not it's not measured out,it it is a grace that is there
for us.
It is a matter of whether we arecapable of receiving the grace,
understanding the grace, andmaking the grace, um, actuating
the grace in our lives.
(11:25):
Um and it's always then aproblem in the individual's
understanding of relationship,what a relationship is, how a
relationship should be.
And of course, then that meansthe person's own understanding
(11:49):
of marriage.
Because we all come to uhunderstand what relationship
what relationships are about bythe way that we have experienced
them either in our formativeyears in our family, in our uh
family of origin, or we'venoticed we we culturally,
ethnically, we uh get exposed towhat we believe marriage should
(12:13):
be.
Right?
Um, for example, nowadays, umwhenever you see any type of
film or a TV series orsomething, uh of the marriage,
uh in the 50s, it was what thewife stayed home, the husband
(12:37):
went to work, yeah.
Leave it to beaver kind ofstuff.
Yeah, in a suit and a and a uhor whatever, right?
And then later on it became moreblue collar, but it's usually a
white collar per situation.
Mom was home in a a very prettyskirt and pearls and a very
pretty lace apron and wouldvacuum and would cook and always
(12:58):
had always made up and the hairdone.
And okay, and that was sort oflike the image that was given.
Like that's what's supposed tobe.
And he had little problems, yourlittle moral resolutions at the
end of the program or at the endof the movie and stuff, but um
how real was that?
(13:20):
I don't know.
I think a lot of people sufferedtrying to copy the copy the
ideal that was presented to himthat was not real.
SPEAKER_02 (13:32):
Yeah, and I guess what's what's funny is now if
you were to uh look at today,then it's kind of the reverse.
Marriage is this like sham andnobody is really married.
You know what I mean?
It's like uh this mutualagreement, but everybody just
kind of does whatever they wantto do anyway, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (13:54):
But I think part of it too, I think is, and I think
that's again, that is the thecultural um I guess a religious.
I really haven't seen any goodmovies that have a good uh
religious marriage, right?
Or where religion or faith ispart of the marriage.
(14:17):
I mean, in fact, when it is,it's sometimes it's a problem.
Religion is the problem.
Yeah.
And so it's not that.
I mean, it's a matter of again,uh, but you know, a good healthy
marriage is not it's not gonnasell.
I mean, it's not you can you'renot gonna make a movie.
I mean, a lot of people are notgonna get a movie to go see
that.
SPEAKER_02 (14:36):
Um, I think part of it, I guess, is so you think it
starts with the cultural part?
That's where the themisunderstanding probably
starts, is from our familiarfamilial and cultural baggage.
SPEAKER_00 (14:49):
Right, right, right, and it's getting past that and
trying to get past and I thinkpart of the the growth or the
life-giving aspect of themarriage is that Christ offers
them the grace to be able tolive this, but to be able to
live this commitment oftransparency and intimacy for
(15:15):
the other, towards the other,and that both seek the other's
growth and um development andmaturity.
SPEAKER_02 (15:28):
Yeah, and and in a s not just in a worldly personal
sense, but also in a spiritualsense, yeah, right?
SPEAKER_00 (15:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Because for us, uh yeah, Ishould say that.
See, it's my Catholic world.
I just assume everybodyunderstands that we're talking.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, the ultimate good is, youknow, to be with the Lord.
Uh the ultimate good is to, youknow, whatever you whatever word
you use to express thatsituation, whether it's heaven
(15:54):
or glory or whatever it mightbe, and the beatific vision,
that is to be that the marriageis meant to help each person in
the marriage to reach that finalconsummation and fullness of the
self, which can only be found inGod, right?
SPEAKER_02 (16:11):
Yeah.
So would you say like thatChristian obedience when we
apply it?
Well, so then so then what doyou what what do you think
obedience and respect really askof us when you apply it but to
to two spouses?
SPEAKER_00 (16:30):
The obedience and the respect, I think, the way I
see it, the way I understand it,is that the obedience and the
respect is to the common good,that is, to the common good of
the of the couple.
What is it's not what I want andwhat it's not what I want versus
what you want.
It's not I win and you lose.
(16:50):
It's we both have wants, we bothhave needs, we both have
desires, we're both wounded, wewere both, you know, in need of
redemption, sanation, uh, andcompletion.
How do we obey and respect thecall to that?
And in that call to growth andprogress in the relationship and
(17:14):
in the relationship with Christ.
Do we help each other, affirmeach other, and even challenge
each other with respect?
Challenge each other to thatgrowth, to look at the areas in
our lives, the shadow, uh, thesin, whatever you want to call
(17:34):
it, uh, to challenge ourselvesto not allow that to be a
shackle or an impediment to ourintimacy, our transparency, our
desire to love each other and tobe with each other and to be you
(17:54):
know each other's best friend,right?
And to desire growth anddevelopment.
But I think that's where the thethe respect and obedience.
I think sometimes what happensthey can become caught in the
ego, and it's about respectingme and obeying me.
Like, well, okay.
There should be some thereshould be some respect, uh,
mutual respect because of thedignity of the persons.
(18:16):
Now, obedience, what do you meanby that?
By obedience, do you mean likeI'm gonna be your mom or your
dad and you can do what I say?
Or yeah, or or is the obediencelike, no, the obedience is to to
listen to and to and to yield tothe call of growth and maturity.
I mean, we should obey that.
SPEAKER_02 (18:34):
And that that makes me think of uh the last time we
were talking about Saint TeresaVabila, how she was talking, or
she said, and I forget the exactquote, something about how
obedience is the quickest way toperfection or something like
that, right?
And it's but it's not obedienceto the person per se, it's
obedience to Christ first.
Yes, and in obedience to Christand imitating that outpouring,
(18:58):
yeah, right, that's where we getthat maturity, that's where we
get that growth.
And so also with like thatoutpouring, right, that we're
called to imitate, not just toour each other's brother and
sister in Christ, but is sp inthis context specifically in
marriage, part of Jesus' loveand his outpouring is mercy and
justice, right?
(19:19):
So, like where does where doesmercy and justice like meet up
in marriage in this obedience inthis respect?
SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
You're gonna get me to so much trouble.
Um because I'm gonna say I'mgonna say stuff and they're not
gonna want to hear what I haveto say, right?
SPEAKER_02 (19:39):
Uh no, this is good.
This is exactly everybody tunedin just to hear what you had to
say.
This is gonna be perfect.
SPEAKER_00 (19:47):
So the idea of mercy, okay, so all the virtues
come into this relationship.
So, in how mercy comes in intothe relationship to be merciful.
Um we can we can do a word studyand go back to the original
(20:07):
meaning of of what mercy is andhow that was translated from the
Hebrew to the Greek to the Latinand how we understand it now,
but we don't have time for that.
Um when we say mercy, it's notnecessarily the biblical
understanding of what mercy is.
When we say mercy, we understandwe usually want to convey the
(20:29):
idea of patience with someone,uh to be able to um not hold a
grudge, to be forgiving of them,right?
That's usually what we mean byby mercy.
And I would say in arelationship of marriage, part
(20:51):
of the balance of a goodrelationship is that I need to
be able to understand andempathize with my partner's
point of view, with my partner'swounds, with my partner's
history.
(21:11):
And part of the mercy is I thepatience and the virtue is that
I can't demand that they bewhere I want them to be.
The mercy is that I have to bepatient and gently challenge
when they're open to it.
Again, go back to virtue, andask them to grow and ask them to
(21:34):
develop, and if they're capableof receiving that right, and the
mercy is I need to just as Iwant my partner to be merciful
to me and to be kind to me, andto understand my wounds,
understand my difficulty inmaturing and in growing in that
relationship.
(21:54):
Because it is, it's the gift ofself to the other, which is
always going to be verydifficult because there's a lot
of things that get involved interms of fear of rejection and
you know, a lot of very uhnormal instinctual uh visceral
reactions to that.
Um but the mercy and the justiceis this the mercy is that I have
(22:17):
to be patient and kind with aperson because of their wounds,
and just because I they're justbecause they're not my wounds
doesn't mean that I don'trespect that, that I I have to
be empathetic to their wound, totheir difficulty.
The justice part is even thoughI respect their difficulty or
(22:43):
their wound or their umchallenge uh or the impediment,
the justice is, but that doesn'tmean I give them an out.
I mean the justice part is Godis still calling us, calling
you, calling me to wholeness, tosanation, to fullness, right?
(23:05):
And if there's amisunderstanding between us,
then you have to be careful asto not be judgmental and
condemning.
But the mercy and the justice isokay, I love you, but there is
still this area of growth thathas to happen in our
relationship if our relationshipis going to continue to grow and
develop, right?
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
Yeah, and gosh, that just sounds hard.
Yes, like it is very, very hard.
Right, because it's this what iswhat's right is right, and I'm
called to the same rightnessthat you're called to.
So, and and in the mercy, I'mcalled to the same mercy, but my
mercy is not dependent on yourmercy, correct.
(23:47):
And my justice is not dependenton your justice, right?
So it's so I don't have theability to say, well, I will
start treating you with respector whatever when you start
treating me with respect, right?
I don't get that.
No, it's not and that's that'snot what it's about.
SPEAKER_00 (24:06):
Yeah, and that's because then that's tit for tat.
And if it's tit for tat, thenyou're no longer in a marriage.
You're no longer in a covenant,you're you're in a you're in a
transactional relationship.
You you you've turned yourcovenant, your marriage
sacrament into a trantransaction.
SPEAKER_02 (24:24):
Yeah.
There's um, so I know like a lotof people now thinking about
this, going back to like theword obedience, obey, or in the
Bible, I love like you know,Paul says, submit to your
husbands, right?
And all that.
And people get scared of thatkind of language, they don't
like that kind of language.
There's this verse um in or Iguess verses whatever, 1 Peter
(24:47):
chapter 3.
And I love it.
I like this one even more, Ithink, than Paul's in
Corinthians.
Um, but it says, likewise, youwives, be submissive to your
husbands, so that some husbands,though they do not obey the
word, may be won without a wordby the behavior of their wives,
(25:12):
when they see irreverent andchaste behavior.
And I just I love that becauseit's kind of going to what we're
talking about, this mercy andthis justice.
Like, don't go nagging yourhusband until he finally starts
doing what Jesus wants him todo.
SPEAKER_00 (25:26):
You know, like it's interesting too that you you
brought this this this scriptureup because in that situation,
okay, what situation is headdressing?
So he as he's as Peter isaddressing this community or
this concern, right?
So obviously the wife is abeliever, the wife belongs to
the community, and the husbandis not.
(25:46):
Yep.
And so by your by yourChrist-like example, that is a
way of evangelizing him withoutnecessarily hitting him over the
head with a Bible, but that isthe way you evangelize is by
your conduct, by the way thatyou treat him.
(26:08):
And that is the word.
The word uh the the word is theexample that you're giving of
your Christ life, right?
SPEAKER_02 (26:19):
Yeah.
The the thing that's interestingto me to me in this too is that
he's telling them to besubmissive, and there's that
word people don't like nowadays,right?
But again, the marriage is thisour our understanding of
marriage is this outpouring ofJesus, right?
(26:41):
Uh, this imitation of theoutpouring of Jesus.
And what does Jesus do?
He in in a sense, he submits tothe apostles, he washes their
feet, right?
Like he makes himself lower andtells them, like, if you're you
you don't understand right whatI'm doing, but you will, right?
If you're not willing to bethis, then you can't follow me,
(27:04):
right?
SPEAKER_00 (27:04):
Right, and I think part of it too is you know the
within Catholic spirituality,the husband is should be
analogous to or should be ashadow of or an image of,
whichever word you want to use,of Christ.
And so he should be the head uhhe should be the spiritual head
(27:27):
of the household.
Uh, again, not not not a not aNazi Catholic, uh but as a
spiritual head of the householdto actually be empathetic and
care for the spiritual growthand well-being of everyone in
the family doesn't mean thatagain, you obey me because I'm
(27:49):
your dad.
Like, no, that's not what it'sabout.
It's about are you leading thehousehold?
So here, so since the husband isnot, the husband is not a
spiritual head, he says, besubmissive.
Yes, this is difficult, yes, youhave to be submissive to him.
(28:09):
But by submitting to him, hesees your virtue, and by your
virtuous life, he will come tounderstand.
And when he comes to faith, thenhe will take the role as
spiritual head as Christ in themodel and image of Christ.
And so, yeah, you have to becareful about some of this
stuff.
It's contextualized, you have tocontextualize it and understand
(28:31):
who is he talking to, why is hesaying this, and what is the
reason for this.
SPEAKER_02 (28:36):
And what's so good about it though, too, is uh, and
not just about this, but theBible period, um, is the
timelessness of it.
How many, how many quote unquoteCatholic w marriages are out
there where the man is not thethe spiritual leader of the
family?
Right, and so so and and thenhow many marriages are out there
(29:00):
where the the husband doesn'tbelieve at all?
Or the wife doesn't believe, butthe husband does, right?
Like this is applicable to ourtime, yes, period.
And so that's what's sointeresting to me about so it's
like, yeah, you have tounderstand the context, but then
you have to understandtheologically that what mercy
and what justice and whatobedience and what submission
is.
Like, what are we actually beingcalled to do in this moment in
(29:24):
this marriage so that we canactually live it out?
So like I can see thenobedience, it becomes like an
act of love.
Yes.
It's not about whose power likea power hierarchy, like you're
saying.
Yes.
It's an act of love.
SPEAKER_00 (29:45):
And one of the things, for example, one of the
scripture verses that I alwaysused to sort of like I again.
My my psychology education kindof All of a sudden the the flag,
right?
There's a flag, like uh whenChrist says, um what is it?
(30:11):
If you love me, you'll obey me,or something like that.
You something like right, and Iand it always there's I still
have a visceral reactionwhenever I read that because
there's like oh that's not youknow that's not healthy, that's
not a healthy relationship,right?
So like that's my first reactionto it.
But what he means is in obeyingChrist, what does it mean to
(30:34):
obey Christ?
If Christ then is as true Godand true man as the example uh
exemplar of that marriagebetween God and man, and the
fullness of man is found in hismarriage to God, to obey Christ
is what is to actually listen toand respond to that greater
(30:59):
design that I am called to.
Um most creatures don't goagainst their nature.
We're the only creature thatgoes against our nature, or what
uh you know what we're meant tobe, right?
A dog is not gonna go againstits dogness, a cat is not gonna
go against its catness, but mancan go against his humanity, his
(31:24):
humaneness.
And so the obedience is listento and and respond to that which
you are called to be, and theobedience to Christ.
It's not just like, okay, youknow, take up your cross, like
and be nice, and you know, youknow, be yeah, yeah, all those
virtues and stuff, but those areall those are all accidentals or
(31:47):
secondaries to the real the realcaller, the real um being, and
that is to to be like Christ, tobe perfect in that charity, to
be perfect in that obedience, tobe perfect in that um
life-giving way of being thatgives life to others and is
(32:11):
concerned for the life of othersto to give others life.
SPEAKER_02 (32:15):
Yeah, it makes me think too of um that makes
sense.
Yeah, no, it does.
It does.
And it makes me think of howGod's law isn't it God's law is
designed to give you thefullness of life, yes, not to
like keep you from doingsomething dumb necessarily.
(32:36):
It's like, no, if you do this,you will have life in its
fullness, right?
And so that's why Jesus says,like when when the the one guy
says, What's the greatestcommandment?
He says to love the Lord withall your heart, mind, and
strength, right?
Um it's you yeah, I love God,but if you don't obey God, then
(32:56):
it's like what you're getting atis you're not internalizing and
understanding and responding toit.
Yeah, so that's yeah, that's howit's all resonating with me.
So that's really interesting.
Um it's really interesting.
So, okay, so we talk a lot aboutwe talk a lot, period.
But we talk a lot about how youknow we're always need in need
(33:18):
of healing, right?
Um, we're constantly beinghealed, we're constantly in need
of healing.
Um how do we honor our spousewhile also honoring our own like
boundaries and healing?
Because like we just got donesaying we we bring our own
(33:38):
baggage into this, our ownwounds, our own whatever, right?
So, like, because sometimes thehealing that we're that we are
in need of are from our past,something we brought into the
relationship, and sometimes it'sfrom things we inflict on
ourselves, right?
Um, or things our spousesinflict on us, right?
Right.
So we're all wounded people, allrelationships are messy.
(34:02):
Um we've probably hurt ourspouses, right?
We've caused wounds to ourspouses and they've hurt us.
Yes.
So it's like I think we shouldbe willing to spend some time on
this part, right?
What you know, some of thewounds we inflict on each other
aren't comparatively like thatbig of a deal.
But I think a lot of the timesthat we the wounds that we can
(34:27):
purposefully or are oraccidentally inflict on our
spouses and and to other justanyone in general, like in
relationship, becauserelationship is messy.
Sometimes these wounds arereally deep and traumatic,
right?
So how do we I don't know, howdo we navigate that fact?
Because I don't want to be likethe kind of person, stop
(34:51):
demanding things of me.
I need healing.
You know what I mean?
Like I need to do that.
Oh no, no, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_00 (34:55):
You can't you can't stop the process, right?
Because then you're never gonnado anything because you, you
know, you're never gonna be,it's all a process.
It's it's it's a continualgrowth.
And that's part of it.
Part of it is it's a continualgrowth and it's a continual work
for each individual, andespecially in a marriage, it's
continual work for both persons.
And so I think part of thematurity that is required, or
(35:24):
the growth that is required toactually grow in marriage, or
for the marriage to grow, umthere has to be an ability to
actually speak to one another asto what it is that you're
experiencing and learning how tospeak to each other without
being accusatory, without beingjudging, without being
(35:46):
condemning, and saying, okay,like okay, this is so um if I
say something or do somethingthat is hurtful unintentionally,
right, I un unintentionallytrigger you, and you are hurt by
(36:12):
what I say or by what I do ordon't say or don't do, and then
your reaction is to becomedefensive or to be um offensive,
right?
You go on the off you attack.
SPEAKER_02 (36:29):
Yeah, some people kind of jab back make that
space.
SPEAKER_00 (36:32):
Right, you attack and go, okay, now that already,
okay, that's already you'realready talking about escalating
the situation, right?
Instead of the person that'slike, okay, I need to walk away
and think about this and comeback and go, like, you know,
this thing that you said or thatyou didn't say, or this thing
(36:53):
that you did or didn't do, Ifelt whatever.
Right.
And the other person goes like,I didn't know, I'm sorry, I
wasn't even paying attentionthat I said, or did I that was
not at all my intention, and soto clear the air, right?
(37:13):
But I think for a lot of people,it's the inability or the
unwillingness to enter into thatspace of transparency and and
and vulnerability, right?
And that's that's where thegrowth is, and that's where the
respect and the boundaries are.
Because, for example, if someoneis like, you know, um, I for me,
(37:40):
personally, me, Steven, um, mylove language is a is very
tactile.
I'm like, I'm from a verytactile family, and so some
people get weirded out by it.
Uh but that's whatever.
Uh and so we're I'm verytactile, but also for me quality
(38:02):
time one-on-one time, that thatis very is again, is it the way
that I show that I love somebodyis by spending time with you
one-on-one.
That's for me, right?
And for other people, right?
It might be acts of service.
For example, I have a very closefriend of mine who I love very
dearly.
Um, and his love language isacts of service.
(38:23):
So he's always doing stuff forme.
And and you know, he's alwaysdoing stuff for me, and always
doing stuff for me.
And I and I try to respond,okay, like, okay, so he's not
very tactile, so he doesn't liketo be touched.
So I respect that, right?
We do spend time together, butum, I try to I try to do
something for him.
Like, okay, so if your languageis to do acts of service, let me
(38:46):
try to do acts of service foryou, and just absolutely
refuses, just does not allowwhen not allowing me to do
anything.
And I get very confused, right?
And so, so part of it is okay.
So, here we go back to thisboundary stuff, right?
This boundary uh and healing.
And so I think part of it isrespect that wherever he is, and
(39:09):
say, okay, um, you know, I carefor you.
And so with words, I you know, Icare for you, very important to
me, da-da-da.
And so I think in arelationship, that relationship
that we have, I think can beawkward in that you want to
respect their boundaries, youwant to respect where they're
(39:30):
at, but at the same time, you'regoing like, but you have to help
me.
And he's not, he's does notspeak about his feelings.
He that he he's a kind ofclassic dude, classic Mexican
dude.
Uh yeah, so right.
So, like, like, okay, so I havea hard time trying to understand
(39:52):
where we're at.
And again, and the reason Ibring this up is like it's very
much like in any relationship,especially in a marriage where
you're committed, some peoplecannot or do not know how to,
they haven't learned how to nametheir emotions and what they're
feeling.
(40:12):
And it's it's a very uh scarything for them because they
don't know what they're feelingbecause they were never educated
as to that.
And when you try to have aconversation with somebody and
you're trying to share whereyou're at and what you're
feeling, and your desires, andthe desire for intimacy and
transparency, and the spiritualgrowth and the growth together
(40:36):
in this uh life-givingrelationship, if they don't have
that capacity, then again, foryou, you have to be careful
about not demanding.
You have to be again honoringgoes back to the mercy, the
mercy, right?
And there's some healing thathas to be there.
And so, are you are both of youwilling to work that?
Are you willing to help thisother person start feel safe
(41:00):
enough to start trying to namethings and define things and to
help them?
That again, that's part of thehealing that has to happen as
well.
So each each individual isunique, but when you have two
unique individuals trying tocome together in a relationship
of marriage, of intimacy andtransparency, there's a lot of
(41:22):
variables that come into playthere.
And there's a sometimes there'sblack boxes in that, like, I
have absolutely no idea wherethe hell this is coming from,
but this is the way I'm feeling,and I don't know why I'm feeling
that way, and so, or why I feel,you know, and one of the big
things that sometimes I find inindividuals uh is there is uh a
(41:44):
tendency to sabotage themselves,to sabotage their relationships
or to sabotage their life,right?
They just they don't believethat they're lovable, they don't
believe that these are deservedjoy or love or happiness or
relationship or or the idea likeeverything is going too well.
So I'm gonna I'm going to screwit up because I would rather
(42:05):
screw it up than have it happento me, you know, well
unexpectedly.
This way I I I'm in control.
I'm in control of thedestruction.
Like, okay, that's prettyscrewed up, but yeah, we'll need
to do that.
SPEAKER_02 (42:20):
You see the logic, yeah.
So so what's what's interestingis you're talking about all this
um and how big of uh roleintimacy um it is like and w we
might can do a whole episodejust on intimacy because it's
it's part of this is we havethis innate desire, we want to
(42:43):
be known, we want to be seen, wewant to be received, yeah,
right.
And um equally in in and that ispart of our healing to become
known, to become received,right?
But we don't know how to receiveeither.
SPEAKER_00 (43:00):
And we're exactly and we don't know and we're
afraid, afraid, and we're afraidof making it known that I want
to be seen and I want to bereceived because we're we're
afraid of rejection.
SPEAKER_02 (43:13):
Yeah, and well, because imagine if if I if I'm
feeling a certain way and I goto my wife and I say, Hey, I'm
feeling this way, and she doesnot respond well, right?
I'm I don't ever want to tellher whatever again, you know,
because like that blew up in myface, and so then that just
everything cascades downhill.
Yep.
Right?
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (43:33):
Um yeah, so and that's where the obedience to
the call of development has tocome in.
Like I need to keep at thisbecause this is what God is
asking of us.
SPEAKER_02 (43:46):
So what so this this call to mutual submission and
like what's something thatpeople can do that can train
their heart to train their mindto be more Christ-like, to be
more merciful, to be morepatient, to to uh to share
(44:12):
themselves without fear ofrejection, to receive the other
person without rejecting them onaccident, right?
Like, what are maybe some ofthese things that we can do?
SPEAKER_00 (44:24):
First, it'd be a matter of becoming aware of
those fears, right?
Becoming aware of those woundsthat we all have, because we're
all we all suffer from the fall.
So the consequences of originalsin affect us all.
Um and I would say that becomingaware of it, and secondly, I
(44:48):
would say bring it to prayer.
Just come to the Lord in quietprayer and just say, I'm aware
of this, this is a fear I have.
And if you're afraid of beingtransparent, then you're gonna
have a hard time see evenpraying about it because you
don't want God to know about it,even though He knows.
But it's a matter of reallyactually facing it and naming it
(45:08):
so that it's not that um, asJung would say, that the power
of the shadow, the unspoken partof those things that we're
afraid of and those things thatthat we don't want to face.
Um, I would say you spend time.
Yeah, because one of the thingsthat John of the Cross talks
about is yeah, he sayseventually in the spiritual
(45:30):
life, it is a matter ofstanding, standing naked before
God.
And by that he means completelyand totally transparent, aware
of all my deficiencies and of mygifts.
To stand naked before God is tobe me and to be unafraid and to
know that I'm loved and thateverything about me, those
(45:51):
things that I worry about, mydefects, my limitations, they do
not affect his love for me.
And that is very freeing.
And then that helps me toactually understand, and this is
maybe maybe this is part of thethe psyche of the modern man.
They tend to fall into the trapof equating brokenness,
(46:15):
woundedness, sinfulness,failures as definitive of who
they are.
And that's the lie.
That's the lie of the enemy.
My failures do not define me, mysin does not define me, my
addictions, my obsessions do notdefine me.
What defines me is that JesusChrist suffered and died for me
(46:35):
because God the Father loves meand I am his beloved child.
That is what defines me.
SPEAKER_02 (46:41):
So is there something that something we can
do?
Um like you know the the wholephrase like fake it till you
make it, right?
Like, or or exercise, like doyou just go keep doing the thing
until it kind of becomes secondnature?
SPEAKER_00 (46:57):
Is there something it becomes real?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:59):
Yeah.
So can is there something we cando that can help us to uh either
in prayer or or toward ourspouse that can help us fight
against the lies or to learn toreceive the other person?
Um not necessarily withoutnecessarily like going to
counseling.
(47:20):
I think counseling is great.
It is.
Um but I think having a good,open, healthy relationship with
your spouse or your best friendor whatever, those are equally
as helpful because you there'ssomeone who is receiving you.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (47:33):
And I think it goes back to the whole idea of the
the healthier, the healthier youget, the healthier your
relationships get, the healthieryour social circles get, the
health everything just startsgetting better and better the
healthier you get.
And I think one of the things isto I would say probably the
(47:54):
easiest thing would be justjournal.
Just journal everything, justget it all out on paper, you
know, just vomit it all out onpaper and and just keep doing
it's very cathartic to do that.
I don't I don't journal.
I can't, I don't have thediscipline because I do it all
in my head of being theintrovert that I am.
I I do all my processing in myhead, in my heart.
(48:16):
Yeah.
Um, so I don't do that.
But a lot of people find it veryhelpful to be able to actually
get it out, get it out, just toget it out.
And so sometimes even if you ifyou're somebody that tends to
have to talk it out, then yeah,go talk it out with a friend or
just talk it out by yourself outwith God in the chapel or out in
(48:36):
the out in the woods and justtalk it out.
Just get comfortable with whoyou are and where you are, and
and know that God desires yourwell-being and your fullness and
your wholeness, and that hewants your healing.
I mean, that's his desire.
That's the whole ministry ofJesus on history of his earthly
(48:58):
ministry, is healing.
I mean, he wants us to be whole.
SPEAKER_02 (49:02):
Is it is it helpful to do something like I don't
know, set up a like a uh whereyou I'm gonna tell my wife
something and she doesn't needto respond.
All she goes is like, okay, Ilove you.
And that's it, like that's theend, right?
So it's like learning to justreceive the thing without
(49:24):
engaging it, right?
Or you know what I mean?
Is there things like that thatyou've because I'm I'm thinking
if I go talk to God, God's justgonna receive it.
He's not gonna, I hope, he's notgonna smite me on the spot.
But you know what I mean?
Like it so are there things thatwe can do to help us in that
maturity of receiving the otherperson and helping them to feel
(49:48):
safe in whatever it is they'retrying to do.
SPEAKER_00 (49:52):
As you said, this is messy.
Relationships are messy, and ittakes practice, practice,
practice, practice at you know,uh not giving up and just keep
practice and okay, and sothere's a misunderstanding,
there's a misconception, I wastotally wrong.
So, okay, let's let's pick up uhand let's try again.
(50:17):
And so I think part of it isgiving yourself permission,
again, giving yourselfpermission to make mistakes and
allowing the other person in therelationship to make mistakes.
You know, everybody's learning.
This is not something you justyou just fall into.
It it is a learning experienceand it's an experience of
growth.
And and and in all healing,there's always going to be pain
(50:39):
because healing is painful.
And so being able to accompanyeach other and to be patient
with each other in that healingprocess.
SPEAKER_02 (50:46):
Yeah.
Something that I that I've umbeen doing for I guess as long
as I can remember now in mymarriage is whenever there's
something that's frustrating me,I go talk to God about it first.
Yes, it's always good to be.
Yeah.
And then the then before I well,and every day, literally every
(51:10):
day, um, because I do like anexamination of conscience or con
Conscience, yes.
Conscience.
Yeah, a little um it's late.
Uh every yeah, every day kind ofthing.
Um, but I make it a point to tryto uh or I've made it a point,
so I do this every day to take auh a disposition of gratitude.
And so I try to find somethingthat I'm grateful for in that
(51:35):
day from my wife or my daughter,right?
Kind of thing.
So something that did it couldbe something as simple as like a
food thing that they gave me orsomething like that.
Like anything.
SPEAKER_00 (51:45):
I think a an important tool or technique or
word of caution is do not, donot, do not engage in discussion
if you are feeling emotional.
Because nothing gets acrossother than the emotion.
(52:08):
And so if you're feeling angryor hurt or whatever, wait until
that is passed.
And if it takes a while, thenwait until it's passed.
Because if you start speakingand then you start speaking from
your emotion, nothing is gonnaget done.
Nothing is if in fact it you therelationship may go backwards,
(52:28):
uh, step take take steps backbecause no matter what you're
doing, the other person does nothear anything that you're
saying.
All that is registering to themis your emotion, and that is not
helpful.
SPEAKER_02 (52:43):
Yeah.
So what so let's say one personin the relationship is more
mature or or or more healthythan the other, right?
How do they well, how does inthat situation, or maybe either
maybe you're the more healthy,maybe you're the least healthy.
How do you how do you avoidweaponizing things that are
(53:07):
good, like that you you're in abetter place, or scripture, like
how do you avoid weaponizingthings like that, or you know
what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00 (53:18):
When you're working with the with your spouse the
idea of weaponizing is already avery negative sign.
You should not, if you'retempted to weaponize, to feel
that you're better, or to feellike, aha, yeah, I'm going to
(53:38):
win.
That is that's wrong.
That that's a bad attitude, andthere needs to be uh an attitude
check on that.
Like, why would you feel whywould you be tempted to feel
that you're superior or thatyou're winning or you're going
to win or that you're better?
Like, no, those are those arethose are not helpful or good or
(54:05):
positive.
SPEAKER_02 (54:07):
Uh so probably just a sign that you need to like
you're saying, check somethingabout yourself.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (54:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (54:14):
Yeah.
What about like when whenbecause a lot of us have
relationships um that have likeI was saying at the beginning,
we have these wounds that we'veinflicted on one another, kind
of thing, and we're trying toheal.
But how how and I know this is avery careful thing, like like
right, there's always thiscaution here, but how do we
(54:37):
practice this mutual respect,obedience, mercy, justice with
our spouse when that trust inthe relationship has been
damaged?
SPEAKER_00 (54:49):
Oh, that is very hard.
SPEAKER_02 (54:51):
Um because just because just because our they've
betrayed our trust or hurt ortrust or whatever, it doesn't
mean again, it's not thistransactional thing.
I don't now have the right to godo whatever.
SPEAKER_00 (55:03):
No, no, but I think again, it goes back to the
unique history and perspectiveof the individual in terms of
being able to forgive and ableto start again or to rebuild
trust, right?
Um when it comes to trust, trustis something that you give
someone, it is a gift that yougive someone.
(55:26):
If they break that trust or ifthey wound that trust, it's not
something that they do notautomatically have a right to it
again.
They have to prove themselves tobe trustworthy.
They have to prove themselvesthat they're they are capable of
maintaining and keeping thetroth or the truth or the trust.
(55:50):
Um, and again, it has to do withhow sensitive the other person
is, how wounded the other personis, how sensitive or wounded is
the person that that wounded oror broke or wounded the trust.
I mean, there's a lot of thingsthat have to go on there.
Uh, and it's a matter of, again,it should not be a zero-sum
(56:13):
game.
It's not a matter of, okay, youlose, I win.
No, it has nothing to do withthat.
It's like, okay, so why do Ihave this thing about trust?
And why am I acting or reactingthis way?
It's a matter of, you know,really do some deep diving, and
there's probably some room forhealing there as well.
(56:35):
Um and the respect, again, goingback to respect again, so the
respect of that sensitivesensitive area, that wound,
right?
And so I would take a uni itwould be, I can't I don't want
to say there's a generalapproach to it, because it
(56:59):
really depends on the twoindividuals and their
understanding of trust and whatthey expect and what their
expectations are.
Um, and again, their history andtheir history of relationships
um and fears and traumas andstuff like that, right?
SPEAKER_02 (57:17):
Well, in in in a Catholic sense, in marriage, and
part of why learning to rebuildthat trust and and maybe how
obedience and and God's gracecan be a part of rebuilding that
brokenness in marriage is we wedon't for us uh marriage is it's
forever, right?
Like it's till death do us part.
SPEAKER_00 (57:38):
It's not forever, it's till death.
SPEAKER_02 (57:40):
No, sorry, sorry, yeah, till till death do us
part.
So we're not Mormons.
Um yeah.
So we um I would say we don'tget a we don't get a at a we
don't get to just give up andwalk away.
SPEAKER_00 (57:53):
No.
I've I think one of the I thinkkey elements to look at would be
Christ's um reconciliation withPeter after the resurrection.
Right.
So after be after Peter betrayedhim and denied him three times.
And you know, and Christ is inthis dialogue, a very intimate
(58:17):
setting.
It's yeah, it's you know, dark,they're sitting by a camp.
They sit around the fire.
Yeah.
Uh he's just fed them uh againanother sign of intimacy and
communion.
And then they're in they're inthe dialogue of like, okay, do
you love me?
Right.
(58:37):
And so like, damn.
Why did you have to go there?
So yeah, and there's a sign, anduh, there's there's an out
there, there's something thereyou can look at and go like,
okay.
There it's respectful.
See, Christ was not accusatory,he did not accuse him, he did
(58:58):
not bring in and throw it in hisface.
Like, do you love me?
And do you and basically saying,Do you understand what love is?
And are you willing to grow inwhat that means, right?
And that understanding.
So yeah, it's possible.
Um but again, you know, PeterPeter did not have a right to
demand Jesus to trust himbecause he had wounded that
(59:20):
trust.
But it was Christ who basicallyoffers him again that
relationship of intimacy, butasks him, Do you understand what
this means?
SPEAKER_02 (59:30):
Yeah, for for myself, it's always been helpful
to reflect on um, you know, I amthe I am an image bearer of God,
so is my wife.
Right?
I am broken, so is my wife.
God has been infinitely patientpatient with me, right?
And uh in going to Corinthiansnow, like she's she's uh I'm
(59:56):
supposed to be obedient.
The way like Christ is, right?
To death.
Right.
So it's almost that scandalizinglove that it is like so
shocking.
Like, what are you doing?
Why do you still love me?
Right.
Right.
And and so trying to take thatapproach has always been helpful
(01:00:22):
when it comes to healing.
Right.
I think and and and allowingGod's grace to to enter into
those wounded places.
You know.
It's good.
I told you I love I love beingmarried.
I love uh I love my wife and myfamily.
I think it's the it's been uhlike the truest sense of the
(01:00:44):
word, it is awesome to bemarried, but it's hard.
So um okay, how about some uhreflection kind of questions?
Like what are what are somethings that we can all just kind
of take to prayer or ponder ifwe're if we're married.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:04):
I would say in in any relationship, especially
marriage, in any relationship.
What are those things in therelationship that you're most
thankful for?
What are those things in therelationship that you wish could
be better?
What are those things in therelationship that you find
(01:01:27):
difficult?
And really just personally justthink about those and ask
yourself, so why do I really amI happy about this?
Why does this make me joyful?
What is it about this that makesme joyful, right?
And to find the root cause ofthat, where that's connected to
(01:01:49):
and why it makes you feelwhatever it is that makes you
feel, right?
And to be able to share that andto be able to um thank God and
thank your partner for that.
And then when it comes to theother things, the areas of
growth, I think that's where wewould go to next is the the
(01:02:09):
being able to come together inwithout being accusatory or or
condemning.
These are some areas of someareas of growth that I would
like us to see if we canapproach or we can even just
talk about it first without evenhaving any action items, right?
(01:02:31):
But just to even talk about howthis makes us feel or perceive
or to understand therelationship, how this how this
colors the relationship that Ihave, right?
And then finally, you know,those difficult areas.
Um and I put it last because Ithink if you establish
(01:02:53):
appreciation first, and if inappreciation you ask for growth,
and the growth is appreciatedbecause it's coming from a place
of love, then you can talk aboutthe difficult difficult things
later uh because it's you'vealready established this um
healthy appreciation, right?
(01:03:14):
And the desire for growth andthe difficult areas.
Okay.
Uh, and then again, being ableto examine ourselves why they're
difficult.
What is it, my is it anexpectation that I have?
Is it a is it a an impossibleexpectation?
Where did those metrics comefrom?
There's a lot of you know thingsthat they can get involved in,
but I think it's just startingwith really being thankful and
(01:03:39):
appreciative of the good and thejoy and the blessing that is
present.
And I think if you start fromthere, everything else kind of
grows from from that.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03:50):
Yeah.
I I think it's it's also helpfulto um pay a little bit of
attention in in the the log inyour own eye before you s start
looking at the spec in yourspouses.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04:03):
Yes, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (01:04:05):
Yeah.
Well, before we wrap it up, um,I do want to remind everybody
that you Carmelites have figuredout, you friars have figured out
a way for people to make somedonations online.
Yes.
Um and so the the link is downin the show notes, and um, you
can do one-time donations, youcan do monthly donations.
(01:04:28):
Um so if you uh peripherally,please would consider supporting
them financially.
And if you're unable to, it'sabsolutely fine.
Uh, please support them withyour prayers.
Yes, that's most important.
Start with prayer first, always.
Yes.
All right, Father.
Thank you for this.
I love you.
Love you.
Um, have a good night.
Thanks.
Yeah, and uh for everyone whojoined us, thanks for joining
(01:04:51):
us, and we will see you nexttime.
God bless.
Thank you.
God bless you.
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