February 14, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode, Father Stephen brings his profound insights into how aligning our struggles with Christ's can be a transformative experience, offering both psychological relief and spiritual growth. Together, we explore the idea that suffering, while difficult, can be a path to deeper faith and redemption.
We also look to Mary, the ultimate example of steadfast faith and unwavering commitment, as a source of inspiration. Delving into the pivotal events of her life, such as the Nativity and the Presentation in the Temple, we reflect on her openness to God's plan despite the mysteries and challenges she faced. Through her story, we learn about the power of embracing those on the margins and maintaining faith amidst uncertainty. Mary's journey is a testament to the enduring strength found in faith and love, setting a path for us all to follow in times of adversity.
As we wrap up this heartfelt conversation, we celebrate Mary's enduring connection to the Church and her role in our spiritual lives. We reflect on her prayerful presence and intercession for the Church, especially during critical moments like before Pentecost. This episode culminates with a discussion on the significance of Mary's assumption, underscoring her as a symbol of redemption and divine love.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
I'm Aida Lee and you're listening to my Friend
the Friar.
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me and myfriend the Friar, Father Stephen
Sanchez, a Discalced CarmelitePriest.
Good morning, Father, Goodmorning.
Are y'all avoiding germs likethe flu and stuff, Because I
(00:27):
hear it's going around?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
It is everywhere and unfortunately those of us in
ministry don't have that luxuryof avoiding it.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yeah, those of us with children don't either.
So Sophia came home yesterday.
She's like I don't feel good,and then all night long she's
been hacking in coffins.
So I'm just like unclean.
Go to your room, stay away fromme, don't touch me.
I can't afford to be sick.
Yeah, no joke.
So then, before we get startedand try and wrap up our
(01:03):
education, we're not going towrap up today.
You don't think so?
No, okay, well, as we movetoward the conclusion of Lumen
Gentium, Chapter 8, Article 8,are we calling it?
Chapter 8.
I didn't want to say something.
(01:24):
I didn't want to say somethingAgain.
Well, sorry, I want to saysomething about an interaction I
had with my mom.
I thought it was really I don'tknow.
I thought it was something forme to consider and maybe it's
something for you and anyone wholistens to consider.
And I asked her you know, hey,is this okay if I talk with
(01:45):
Father Stephen about it?
And she's like yeah that's fine.
So I went down.
Her birthday was the other day.
She just turned 70 just acouple weeks ago, or a couple
days ago yeah, this is the 18thof January, so just a little bit
ago and I was down theresitting with her and
chit-chatting and, um, I alwayscarry my rosary in my pocket and
(02:09):
I was telling her the other dayI was looking at the crucifix
uh, part of the rosary and I wasthinking about how christ uses
the things that take place inour life to draw us near to Him
and I was reflecting on that andI was reflecting on what it
(02:35):
must have been like to be at thefoot of the cross to see Him.
You know, unable to move andall that kind of stuff, and in
pain.
And you know unable to move andall that kind of stuff and in
pain and you know everything.
And for some reason it made methink of my mom, because she has
difficulty moving and her bodyhurts and all that kind of stuff
.
(02:55):
And I thought I've been readingabout some of the martyrs and
the early Christians and stuffand how they, they like, longed
for martyrdom.
Right, they, if they would evenwrite like I would.
I hope I get to suffer and dielike Christ.
And so all those kinds ofthoughts kind of connected in my
(03:18):
head and I thought to myself,you know, I, I, I imagine how
frustrating it is, you know, formy mom, like for me, if I could
move all of a sudden.
I would be pretty frustrated,right.
But how beautiful to be able insome way to suffer alongside
(03:38):
Jesus and to experience part ofwhat he must have experienced on
the cross.
Experience part of what he musthave experienced on the cross.
And so it was just a really kindof interesting kind of
contemplation and um, and weended up at my mom and I, at the
, at the end of just kind ofhanging out and talking, I told
(03:58):
her I was going to get her acrucifix for her wall, um, for,
uh, for her bedroom.
So when she's, you know,sitting there, laying there and
kind of in the silence of of herown mind kind of thing, that
she'd be able to reflect on ittoo.
And she said she'd like that.
So, anyway, just a thought,like I said, I wanted to share
with you and see, kind of, maybeit's helpful for you, maybe
(04:19):
it's helpful for someone elseout there who's going through
some hard times.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I think there is document that the church put out
on suffering and the idea ofsharing suffering with others or
, as we say, uniting it to thecross with others, or as we say
(04:45):
uniting it to the cross.
part of that on thepsychological side is to get us
out of our own self.
So part of the healthy side thepsychological side is that it
helps me to remove my attentionupon myself.
I'm not locked up in the bubbleof myself.
I'm not locked up in the bubbleof myself.
(05:07):
And then by turning it aroundand uniting it to the suffering
of Christ and making ittherefore redemptive, is that
this suffering, whatever itmight be, whether it's your mom
(05:29):
dealing with her situation rightnow, struggling the idea of my
body, is not answering to mywill that struggle, kind of
right.
You can't talk, you can't move,these things.
It's very frustrating, right?
So part of that, then, is thatI offer it up for all those who
you know, whatever, whatever theoffering is for, therefore,
(05:56):
what it makes it, it'sredemptive in that it makes, by
joining it to the suffering ofChrist, by no-transcript,
because he was true God, trueman.
So, part of the spiritual side,without getting deep into
(06:18):
another two-hour discussion onsuffering, yeah, I think it's
very helpful, but I think it's amatter of learning to move away
from our self-preoccupation andjoining it to the suffering of
Christ.
And we talk about suffering forChrist, but that happens not
necessarily with the idea of Iwant to suffer.
(06:42):
It is a matter of I accept thesuffering that comes to me,
right, and joining it to Christ.
Even though there are saintsthat talk about I want to suffer
, but that's the language thatwe use, but the reality is other
than that.
In the, for example, the examplethat I've used before is, as I
(07:04):
stand outside of a family and Ilook at the family and the
suffering that I see is havingto go to work, having to provide
for the children that areungrateful, having to change
diapers, having to feed them,having to send them to school
and getting up and doing allthis stuff for them.
From the outside it looks as ifit's suffering, but within that
(07:30):
particular reality that I amnot a part of, it is not
suffering.
It is a gesture of love, and sothat is the difference.
The difference is we talk aboutsuffering, but the person that
is in love with Christ doesn'tsee it as suffering.
The person that is in love withChrist sees it as a gesture of
love for Christ and for thechurch that Christ loves.
(07:51):
So it's a matter of perspective, and so I always tell people
suffering for the sake ofsuffering is pathological, and
God does not want that.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
God does not want that.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
It's a matter of where are you in your
relationship with the lord right, and so this, then, is the
understanding that we shouldhave uh.
That is why, for example, um, ifyou remember uh in chirp, the
gospel, that we have uh for theevening before and sat on
(08:23):
Saturday the gospel of theinstitution right, and we have
Jesus washing the feet and wherewe have Peter unable to accept
the fact that Jesus is doingsomething so humiliating?
Because Peter sees it outsideof the relationship.
Jesus is in the relationshipand he doesn't see it as
(08:45):
humiliating.
He sees it as a gesture ofintimacy and love.
Same thing here with thesuffering.
It is a matter of where are youin your relationship with
Christ, the deeper you are inthat relationship with Christ.
Suffering is not suffering.
Suffering is a gesture of lovethat you make towards Christ and
also towards his church, whomhe loves, and therefore you love
(09:06):
towards Christ and also towardshis church, whom he loves, and
therefore you love becauseChrist loves.
And it is a gesture of love forthe community outside of myself
.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
So oh, and you know it's kind of an interesting,
it's a good contemplation, Ithink, when it comes now to
segue back into our topic, mary,because you know we love at
best dimly right because of oursin Right, and you know, and how
(09:37):
great is her love because it'snot encumbered by that sin,
because it's not encumbered bythat sin, and equally, like, how
great must her suffering havebeen to like watch her son be
crucified and all that kind ofstuff, and so, and I think where
we left off last time was kindof this comparison between how
(10:00):
Eve it was like Eve's obediencewas undone by Mary's obedience.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Right, so excellent segue.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
So, speaking again, speaking of the image that you
brought up of Mary at the footof the cross, right Again this
whole idea of faith and Mary asthe archetype of what it is to
(10:33):
be a disciple, a faithfuldisciple.
And so let's go to Articles 57and 58 of archetype, of the
pilgrim church's journey offaith.
Now, archetype we're nottalking about a psychological
(10:54):
archetype, we're not talkingabout Jungian archetype here.
By archetype we mean model andexample, right, this is the
model and example.
For example, in the Lord of theRings, gandalf is the archetype
of the wisdom figure.
Gandalf is the sage.
(11:14):
Gandalf is the wisdom figure,so he is the archetype, he is
the model and example of what itis to be wise.
Aragorn is the archetype ofhealthy masculinity, right, the
healthy king, right, the.
So there, what we mean byarchetype is the model and
example, right?
(11:35):
So the council fathers aresaying that Mary is the model
and example of what it is to bea faithful pilgrim.
Excuse me so, in Article 57,the Council Fathers say this is
from the Magentium.
This union of the mother withthe son in the work of salvation
(11:58):
is made manifest from the timeof Christ's virginal conception
up to his death.
It is shown first of all, whenMary, arising in haste to go to
visit Elizabeth, is greeted byher as blessed because of her
(12:20):
belief in the promise ofsalvation and between Mary and
the Word made flesh.
And the work of salvation isthat as soon as Mary conceives
the Word first, they say in herheart and in her womb what is
the first thing that she does?
She ministers.
(12:41):
The first thing she does is togo and help, go and take care of
her older cousin who is, uh,pregnant and in her sixth month.
I think is what the scripturesays.
So it is, and again, it's not amatter of people don't
understand or don't appreciatethe difficulty of that ministry,
because it's not a matter ofyou.
(13:03):
You know, getting on 35 andgoing up north for an hour or so
, it is, you know.
We don't know if she walkedbecause it's not.
You know, having or did theyhave enough money to hire a
donkey, or because you couldn'tafford a mule or a horse because
the horse was for warriors andmules were warriors too.
(13:26):
So a donkey, could you afford?
A donkey on you?
know, the money that joseph hadfrom being a carpenter and so,
and then it would take days, andin the heat, and so do you
travel, and so there's banditsand there's all.
This was a very, very difficultundertaking that most of the
time we just pass over.
(13:47):
We don't think about thedifficulty and the act of faith
that Mary knew it was adangerous thing, mary knew it
was going to be a very difficultthing, and yet she's moved by
the word to go and attend to hercousin, to her cousin.
Okay, so this then is part ofthat the union between the
(14:08):
mother and the son in the workof salvation, in this what we
call the visitation.
So continuing on with number 57.
This promise of salvation andthe precursor, john the Baptist,
leaped with joy in the womb ofhis mother.
This union is manifest also atthe birth of our Lord, who did
not diminish his mother'svirginal integrity but
(14:28):
sanctified it.
When the mother of God joyfullyshowed her firstborn son to the
shepherds and magi, when shepresented him to the Lord in the
temple, making the offering ofthe poor, she heard Simeon
foretelling at the same timethat her son would be a sign of
contradiction and that a swordwould pierce the mother's soul
(14:49):
that out of many hearts,thoughts might be revealed when
the child Jesus was lost andthey had sought him, sorrowing.
His parents found him in thetemple taking up the things that
were his father's business, andthey did not understand the
word of their son.
His mother, indeed, kept thesethings to be pondered over in
her heart.
So these are all examples ofwhat it is to be a pilgrim,
(15:17):
disciple in faith.
So the idea of Mary giving birth, the idea of, all of a sudden,
why are the shepherds here?
The shepherds were themarginalized of the society and
the magi were non-believers ornon-Israel, they didn't belong
to the covenant, and so for themto come and for her to like
(15:40):
okay, I don't know what this isabout.
I trust in God's plan.
This is part of God, god's planunfolding.
So I need to be able to enterinto that and embrace that.
And then, at the presentationthat we're celebrating tomorrow,
so in the face of thepresentation, when the Lord is
(16:01):
brought into the temple andfulfilling the law Mary and
Joseph were faithful abiders ofthe law and then to hear Simeon
and Anna talk about the baby andthey're like what, what Anna
talk?
about the baby and they're likewhat, what?
And then this, you know, oracleof Simeon.
You know foretelling her sorrow.
(16:23):
So all of these are moments offaith, and so it could have been
otherwise.
And, as you said before too, Ihave absolutely no idea what
it's like to be immaculatelyconceived.
I'm not even going to try toguess, but what would our
(16:44):
reaction be in those situationsif somebody tells me something
like this about my child, or youknow, like, okay, loony dude,
he's one of those church peoplewho never leaves the church and
he's just crazy.
Um, so there's a lot ofdifferent things that are being
presented here by the councilfathers in term of mary's
journey of faith yeah, and soyou know what, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
one of my, one of my favorite things about the
christmas narrative, um, is thethe shepherds.
Because when it was just randomone year at christmas, like the
light bulb finally turned on inmy head and I was like not just
that the shepherds weremarginalized, but like what do
shepherds protect?
Well, they protect the sheepand their lambs, and Jesus is
(17:29):
the Lamb of God.
So of course God would sendshepherds to protect him, kind
of thing.
And I was just like what youknow, mind him kind of thing.
And I was just like what youknow, mind blown kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
So did you get up in the middle of mass and go I got
it, I got it yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
I almost wanted to.
I was like what, oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
God moments.
Yeah, so, continuing on innumber 58 of the chapter 8, and
again, this is again the wholeidea of Mary's journey of faith
In the public life of Jesus,mary makes significant
appearances.
This is so even at the verybeginning.
(18:12):
When the marriage feast of Canamoved with pity, she brought
about, by her intercession, thebeginning miracles of Jesus, the
Messiah.
In the course of her son'spreaching, she received the
words whereby, in extolling akingdom beyond the calculations
and bonds of flesh and blood, hedeclared blessed those who
heard and kept the word of God,as she was faithfully doing.
(18:36):
After this manner, the BlessedVirgin advanced in her
pilgrimage of faith andfaithfully preserved in her
union with her Son onto thecross, where she stood in
keeping with the divine plan,grieving exceedingly with her
only begotten Son, unitingherself with a maternal heart
with his sacrifice and lovinglyconsenting to the immolation of
(18:59):
this victim, which she herselfhad brought forth.
Finally, she was given by thesame Christ Jesus, dying on the
cross as a mother to hisdisciple, with these words Woman
, behold thy son, woman, beholdthy son.
Okay, so the whole idea of Maryas the model and exemplar of
(19:27):
what it is to be a faithfuldisciple as we journey through
space and time as a pilgrimchurch.
So we have here in number 58,the first thing that is brought
up is the wedding at Cana.
And when Jesus says, woman,what is this to you?
And I, I mean.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, my time is not coming.
My time is not coming whatRight?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And Mary's response is do whatever he tells you.
She had faith right.
She had faith in this son andshe had faith in this situation
right.
And so there's a lot of thingsgoing on here.
In this sign.
We're talking about John'sgospel, so John doesn't use the
(20:06):
word miracle, he uses the wordsign.
So the sign here is about one.
We talked about the wedding cupin in the jewish uh, marriage
ceremony, right, yeah, the wholeidea of wine.
Wine is joyful, wine is part ofthe wedding banquet.
(20:27):
Uh, wine for then also is beingpresented to us as eucharist.
It it is.
It is the blood, right, and itis this new wine.
And so, as the ablutions, allthe water that is used for all
the ceremonial cleansing, isdone away with and replaced with
wine, is replaced with thesacraments.
(20:47):
This is the way we wouldunderstand it Then that there's
something here, there is a faithstance here, that Mary is not
just Mary, but Mary is also, atthis moment, an image and model
of the church, the believingcommunity, right?
So there's a lot going on inthis sign that the council
(21:10):
fathers are bringing up, right.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
And then it goes to— and anybody who hadn't listened
to that episode, it's called theLink Between the Jewish
Marriage Customs and the LastSupper Great episode On our
podcast.
Yeah, yeah, and oh, and there'sactually—there's two of them,
because then the other one isexploring the symbolism of wine
and marriage in Jewish andCatholic traditions.
So yeah, there's a lot going on.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, so yeah there's a lot going on, yeah, and so
then the next thing is whereMary doesn't say anything, that
this is the part that they bring, where they say your mother's
looking for you, and Jesus sayswho are my mother, my brothers?
And so then this whole idea offidelity, what is it to be
faithful to Christ?
(21:55):
To be faithful to Christ is tobelong to his body, to belong to
his family, and so one of thethings that we have to deal with
as believers is that, manytimes, our blood family is not
part of the faith family, and soone of the things that we have
to deal with, then, is the ideathat I have to understand that
(22:17):
my faith family is my family.
This is who I by blood.
I now belong to this new group,and it's difficult because we
have natural bonds.
Obviously, we have natural bondswith our blood family, but my
real blood family, the realblood family, is now the
community of faith that I belongto, and Mary is seen as this
(22:39):
model and image of this faithfuldisciple, then the last thing
that they bring in this numberis the one that you, the example
that you brought up earlier, isMary at the foot of the cross,
(23:03):
and the faith stance is thatMary, even though she sees this,
this is the consequence, right,we see her son enduring the
passion, we see her son beingrejected.
We see her son being spat upon.
We see her son being condemnedto a very shameful death for a
Jew, on being condemned to avery shameful death for a Jew,
not just to be crucified becauseto be hung on a tree is to be
lost we would say perdition tobe damned.
(23:25):
Right To be in a situationwhere the Jewish faithful would
see that this is a damning thingthis person is damned because
they're being hung on a tree butalso a very shameful death
because they were crucifiednaked.
And again, I've always broughtthis up in other situations
where I say, to this day, westill can't deal with the shame
(23:47):
because to this day, we stillhave Jesus on a cross with a
loincloth, because we reallycannot deal with the idea of a
naked Jesus, because it's notand it has nothing to do with
being prudish, it has to do withshame, it's the vulnerability.
The person is completelyexposed, and so this is again
(24:08):
another situation.
And then for Jesus to tell hismom this is your son.
You know the beloved discipleright, this is your son.
And for Mary then to take thatto believe that this whole idea
of this faith is that all thesedifferent things are being torn
(24:28):
apart.
Our world is being torn apart.
For those of us that don't havethe luxury to be immaculate,
what is it like for animmaculate heart to suffer this?
It must be something beyond mycapacity to understand or our
(24:53):
capacity to understand.
But also there's thisImmaculate Heart that is willing
to say I still believe.
I know that God is faithful,even though this doesn't make
sense, even though this does not.
I cannot wrap my head aroundthis.
I don't know how, but I knowthat God is faithful.
(25:13):
I don't know how this is goingto turn out, but all I do know
is that God is faithful, andthat is in the stance of the
faithful disciple that Maryrepresents for us.
And there's this idea of whatdoes faith encompass?
Right, and it is encompassingthis ability.
(25:38):
One of the things I tell peopleis that you genuinely, genuinely
, have to believe that God is myloving Father and that, as my
loving Father, he holds me inthe palm of His hand.
And as he holds me in the palmof His hand, I have to trust and
(25:59):
believe that, whatever happensin my life, whatever occurs in
my life, for good or ill, ispart of God's design and part of
God's will for me to grow in myown sanctity, in my own
redemption, my own journey.
And I have to believe this that, yes, we live in a broken world
.
It's not a world that Godwanted us to live in.
He wanted us to live in Eden.
But this is the world thatwe're living in.
And so I have to believe that,in spite of the brokenness of
(26:21):
the world, in spite of mysuffering for the consequences
of my own decisions or otherpeople's decisions, that somehow
God, who is the God of history,will bring it all to completion
, and it is for the health andwell-being of each one of us.
I have to believe that, or elselife would be unbearable.
And that is the faith stance,that is Mary's stance, the
(26:43):
stance that we have.
Our devotion to Mary is notjust about praying the rosary.
Our devotion to Mary isimitating the model of faith
that she has exemplified for us.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, and it's funny too.
This morning's mass readingsfrom Hebrews.
Paul says faith is therealization of what is hoped for
and evidence of things not seen.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yes, yeah, those are great readings this week and
next week for Hebrews.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
So okay then I think, before we go on to Article 59,
we have been talking about threedifferent.
We've been talking about thefive steps, the three different
steps ahead.
Let me recap that right.
So there are five differentsteps of Mary's role in the
salvation of history.
One was the Old Testamentprophecies, which was Article 55
(27:46):
.
Two was the New Testament,mary's obedience, which is
Articles 56 and 57, which wejust finished.
The next point is point three,mary's receptive faith, which is
I'm sorry, okay, I haven't hadenough coffee yet Step two.
You're going to have to editthis.
(28:08):
Step two New Testament, mary'sobedience, article 56.
Mary's receptive faith, whichis step three, which is articles
57, 58,.
And now we go to step four, orpoint four Mary's connection to
Christ brings her to beintimately connected with the
(28:28):
church, and this is article 59.
And then the fifth point thechurch sees herself in Mary's
assumption.
That's part three of chaptereight.
So we'll go to that next, butfirst we have this point Mary's
connection to Christ brings herto be intimately connected with
(28:49):
the church.
Article 59 is Mary at prayerwith the apostles in preparation
for Pentecost, 59.
But since it has pleased Godnot to manifest solemnly the
mystery of the salvation of thehuman race before he would pour
forth the Spirit promised byChrist.
(29:11):
We see the apostles, before theday of Pentecost, persevering
with one mind in prayer with thewomen and Mary, the mother of
Jesus, and with his brethren,and Mary, by her prayers,
imploring the gift of the Spiritwho had already overshadowed
her in the Annunciation.
Finally, the Immaculate Virgin,preserved free from all guilt
(29:36):
of original sin, on thecompletion of her earthly
sojourn, was taken up body andsoul into heavenly glory and
exalted by the Lord as Queen ofthe Universe, that she might be
the more fully conformed to herSon, the Lord of Lords and the
conqueror of sin and death.
Okay, again, the Council Fatherspack a lot into this one
(29:59):
paragraph, this one number,number 59.
This whole idea of perseveringwith one mind in prayer with the
women and marry, the mother ofJesus, and with his brethren.
Okay, remembering that beforePentecost, brethren.
(30:20):
Okay, remembering that beforePentecost, the community is
being persecuted.
They're afraid they're going tobe dragged out and be crucified
, they're hiding, they don'tknow what to do.
Then they have the experienceof, on the road to Emmaus,
there's the experience of theresurrection, and then they're
told to go and wait for him.
And so they go and they'repraying and they're excited Now
(30:41):
that they're excited, but theystill don't understand what's
going on.
So they're in this crossroadsof faith, of trying to
understand what they'veexperienced with the crucifixion
and now the experience of therisen Lord, and now they're all
coming together and praying andwaiting for this coming of the
Lord, whatever that might be.
(31:02):
And so here we have, then, mary,then, as a symbolic of not just
, again, not just Mary themother of Jesus, but Mary as
model and image of faithfuldisciple praying for and
imploring God to manifest Hiswill right, what is your will
for us?
(31:23):
And so what is the will?
The will is that the Holy Spiritcomes down upon them and
inflames them and blesses them,and they have the gift of
tongues and they go forth topreach the good news of this
reconciliation that is wroughtin Jesus, the Lamb right.
And so here we have, then, thisidea of Mary, who is the mother
(31:47):
of Jesus, but also a model andimage of the Church.
Then, for us, then, what is sheexemplifying?
She's exemplifying for us thisidea of interceding for the
Church, praying for the Church,praying for the coming of the
Spirit.
Are we following that model andexample of Mary that prays for
the well-being of the Church,the greater Church, the
(32:09):
community of faith, as thecommunity finds itself right,
and are we capable of doing itin that same spirit and
dedication that Mary shows as isexemplified in the Gospels that
we're told?
And here again I think it's forus to look at do we intercede
(32:34):
for the entirety of the churchand do we intercede for God's
will, or do we have a particularthing that we want and we try?
to convince God of that thingthat we want.
Again, different approaches,right.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yeah, yeah, it's easy for us to get caught up in
ourselves, right, yeah, yeah,it's easy for us to get caught
up in ourselves, right?
This is kind of what we weretalking about earlier.
Yeah, yeah, but in all aspectsof life, it's easy for us to
shrink our world down to just us, or just our family, or just
our job, or just our whatever.
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
And the difficult part is and this is true of all
spirituality well, christianspirituality about the rest of
the world, uh, is to get beyondour self-interest.
Can I find a way to not be soworried about my self?
Right?
Can I understand that I belongto a people, that my identity is
(33:37):
not just me, but my identity isbelonging to this people who
has been now sealed with theblood of the lamb right, this
greater community that I belongto?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
yeah, okay, well, and that's like sin.
When you sin like you don'tjust hurt yourself, you hurt the
church yes, right.
Right, yes, which is part, Iguess why the public nature of
confession.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yes, right, the communal yeah, their communal,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so then they end thisparagraph with referring to the
assumption, without necessarilysaying the assumption about
what's taking up body and soulinto heavenly glory.
(34:19):
So this is, then, part ofMary's model and image, exemplar
of the faithful disciple, butalso as model and image of
believing church.
All of us are called to sharein that Trinitarian life of
(34:45):
Father, son and Spirit.
That's what we're called to.
And so Mary, as immaculate,then conceived without sin, as
the tabernacle of the covenantand the incarnation of the
covenant, right as that, wewould say, physical temple where
(35:07):
the Word was conceived, right,the consequences of all this,
the God's choice, her beingimmaculately conceived, all this
, and then in Mary, what we haveis in the assumption.
We have the promise of our ownassumption, because in the creed
we proclaim and believe that inthe resurrection of the body
(35:28):
right, we as Catholics believethat our body is a part of who
we are.
We don't leave it behind.
It will be transformed, it willbe conformed to the image of
Christ's transformed andglorified body.
We don't know what that is, butwe know, we believe that and we
proclaim that.
And so in Mary you have, thenshe is the first of us.
(35:53):
She is the first of our kind ashuman persons.
Not that Jesus is not a humanperson, but Jesus is true God
and true man.
We have in Jesus that uniquemarriage between God and man.
But Mary as redeemed, jesus isthe redeemer.
Mary is the first of theredeemed that enjoys that
(36:15):
promise that we all have.
We all have that promise If weare faithful disciples in
according to the mercy and loveof God, the Father.
The desire is that we share inthat, and so Mary represents
that church.
Mary represents that communityof faith we would talk about in
old Catholic language, we wouldtalk about the church triumphant
(36:37):
, all the saints that are withthe Lord now, all the saints
that are in glory with Mary.
That she represents thiscommunity and it is a community
that we're all called to.
So it's a matter of us, then,as pilgrims and looking at Mary,
see that the consequence of myfidelity, the consequence of my
(37:00):
being other-centered as Christis, and to be other-centered as
Mary was, other-centered in theimage and likeness of Christ,
her Son, that the consequence ofthat is to live and to share in
the Trinitarian life in thefullness of my being.
So Mary is fully who she is,who God meant her to be, as she
(37:24):
enjoys the Trinitarian communionin that experience of love that
exists between Father, son andSpirit.
And that is what we're allcalled to.
We're all called to that.
That is what we are destinedfor, that is for us.
When Catholics talk aboutpredestination, that's what they
mean.
We mean for us, predestinationmeans that God has desired for
(37:45):
all of us to share in thatTrinitarian life.
It doesn't necessarily refer tothose that are marked for
salvation, those that are markedfor damnation.
Predestination for us is Godhas predestined us all to share
in the Trinitarian life.
Now, whether we want to go ornot, that's up to us, right.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah, and it's like you can't even contemplate what
that must be like either.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
No, it's all speculation, because we don't
know.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
I heard somebody talking um.
I think it was like on pintswith aquinas, but I don't know
if he was quoting someone else.
But he was saying how it's like, um, it's like if you were an
infant in the womb and likeyou're wondering what it must be
like after you're born likeyou'd have no idea.
You couldn't even imagine whatit's like outside of the womb,
um, and how similar it must belike after you're born.
Like you'd have no idea.
(38:37):
You couldn't even imagine whatit's like outside of the womb
and how similar it must be whenwe die.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Yeah, yeah, and so part of this whole idea of Mary
being queen, right, and it's notbecause she, it's not like she
entered a contest and like, okay, so I won the queen of universe
contest?
Speaker 1 (38:54):
No yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
It is because Jesus is Lord of Lords.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
His communion with us , his love for us is so deep and
so transformative and unitiveis that we share in his kingship
.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah, yeah, it's like the queen mother is like the
king might, and probably thenthe wife of a previous king.
So here it would not be thequeen mother, here would be the
queen, she would be the queen inthe fact that we, as church,
are both bride.
We are bride, we're called tobe bride of Christ, the church
(39:54):
is the bride of Christ, and soMary is the first of the bride
of Christ, which is really weirdfor us to talk about, since
Mary is his mom.
But it's not the bride in thatkind of way.
It is the only way that we canspeak of union in a way that is
(40:16):
sort of comprehensible for us.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Yeah, it's one of those things where there's so
many layers to the symbolismthat it's like….
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Yeah, the only image and this is the Old Testament
image, the Old Testament imageof marriage.
It's not that it's marriage,but it's the only thing that we
can.
It's the only reference pointthat we have, and this reference
point is is like trying toequate um, a, very, a, very
(40:47):
smart, smart, uh, I was going tosay mammal, whatever with
Einstein.
So it's radically different,but it's the only thing that we
have is intelligence orintellect, right?
And so here, the only thing wehave is this idea of marriage,
(41:12):
which is what, which is completeand total gift of self to
another, right, yeah, it's union, right, right.
So it's really about union.
It's not about marriage, it'sabout union and gift of self to
others.
So here then, mary's queenshipis the queenship of the church,
the queenship of the Bride ofChrist.
Christ, not because it is amerit that they have earned, but
(41:40):
it is a gift that the kinggives to the bride.
The union is so deep that theythemselves become, you would say
, regal.
They share in the regal natureof Christ because of the depth
of union.
I know it's a very difficultconcept to talk about.
We're talking all aboutspeculative theology and trying
(42:01):
to talk about, you know, thingsthat are difficult to talk about
, but that's where the Councilof Fathers went, and so that's
where we have to try to get inthere and try to dive in there
and find the richness of theseimages that they have used.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Yeah Well, and they started at the very beginning of
chapter eight.
They're like we're not tryingto lay everything out there and
define everything, right, thatall of this is for the benefit
of the church, right?
And so these are things tocontemplate, like what does it
mean?
Because, you know, as men, weeven perceive marriage as one
way, versus like my wife wouldthink of it.
Mean because, right, you know,as men, we even perceive
marriage as one way, versus likemy wife would think of it
(42:39):
differently, right, becauseshe's a woman, so she has a
different kind of experience andintellect towards those kind of
concepts and so it's justsomething to pray with and
something to really spend timein contemplation.
Right, right, right.
You know well, uh, what do yousay?
You want to wrap this one uphere before we move on to the
church the blessed virgin andthe church, which is the fifth
(43:03):
point.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
The church sees herself in Mary's assumption,
that assumption being the effectof redemption.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
So that'll be the next point we cover alright.
Well, father, thanks for this.
You're very welcome.
God bless yeah, everybody,thanks for joining us.
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Tell your mom we're praying for her.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
I will Bye Bye.
I'm Aida Lee and you're listening to my Friend
the Friar.
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me and myfriend the Friar, Father Stephen
Sanchez, a Discalced CarmelitePriest.
Good morning, Father, Goodmorning.
Are y'all avoiding germs likethe flu and stuff, Because I
(00:27):
hear it's going around?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
It is everywhere and unfortunately those of us in
ministry don't have that luxuryof avoiding it.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yeah, those of us with children don't either.
So Sophia came home yesterday.
She's like I don't feel good,and then all night long she's
been hacking in coffins.
So I'm just like unclean.
Go to your room, stay away fromme, don't touch me.
I can't afford to be sick.
Yeah, no joke.
So then, before we get startedand try and wrap up our
(01:03):
education, we're not going towrap up today.
You don't think so?
No, okay, well, as we movetoward the conclusion of Lumen
Gentium, Chapter 8, Article 8,are we calling it?
Chapter 8.
I didn't want to say something.
(01:24):
I didn't want to say somethingAgain.
Well, sorry, I want to saysomething about an interaction I
had with my mom.
I thought it was really I don'tknow.
I thought it was something forme to consider and maybe it's
something for you and anyone wholistens to consider.
And I asked her you know, hey,is this okay if I talk with
(01:45):
Father Stephen about it?
And she's like yeah that's fine.
So I went down.
Her birthday was the other day.
She just turned 70 just acouple weeks ago, or a couple
days ago yeah, this is the 18thof January, so just a little bit
ago and I was down theresitting with her and
chit-chatting and, um, I alwayscarry my rosary in my pocket and
(02:09):
I was telling her the other dayI was looking at the crucifix
uh, part of the rosary and I wasthinking about how christ uses
the things that take place inour life to draw us near to Him
and I was reflecting on that andI was reflecting on what it
(02:35):
must have been like to be at thefoot of the cross to see Him.
You know, unable to move andall that kind of stuff, and in
pain.
And you know unable to move andall that kind of stuff and in
pain and you know everything.
And for some reason it made methink of my mom, because she has
difficulty moving and her bodyhurts and all that kind of stuff
.
(02:55):
And I thought I've been readingabout some of the martyrs and
the early Christians and stuffand how they, they like, longed
for martyrdom.
Right, they, if they would evenwrite like I would.
I hope I get to suffer and dielike Christ.
And so all those kinds ofthoughts kind of connected in my
(03:18):
head and I thought to myself,you know, I, I, I imagine how
frustrating it is, you know, formy mom, like for me, if I could
move all of a sudden.
I would be pretty frustrated,right.
But how beautiful to be able insome way to suffer alongside
(03:38):
Jesus and to experience part ofwhat he must have experienced on
the cross.
Experience part of what he musthave experienced on the cross.
And so it was just a really kindof interesting kind of
contemplation and um, and weended up at my mom and I, at the
, at the end of just kind ofhanging out and talking, I told
(03:58):
her I was going to get her acrucifix for her wall, um, for,
uh, for her bedroom.
So when she's, you know,sitting there, laying there and
kind of in the silence of of herown mind kind of thing, that
she'd be able to reflect on ittoo.
And she said she'd like that.
So, anyway, just a thought,like I said, I wanted to share
with you and see, kind of, maybeit's helpful for you, maybe
(04:19):
it's helpful for someone elseout there who's going through
some hard times.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I think there is document that the church put out
on suffering and the idea ofsharing suffering with others or
, as we say, uniting it to thecross with others, or as we say
(04:45):
uniting it to the cross.
part of that on thepsychological side is to get us
out of our own self.
So part of the healthy side thepsychological side is that it
helps me to remove my attentionupon myself.
I'm not locked up in the bubbleof myself.
I'm not locked up in the bubbleof myself.
(05:07):
And then by turning it aroundand uniting it to the suffering
of Christ and making ittherefore redemptive, is that
this suffering, whatever itmight be, whether it's your mom
(05:29):
dealing with her situation rightnow, struggling the idea of my
body, is not answering to mywill that struggle, kind of
right.
You can't talk, you can't move,these things.
It's very frustrating, right?
So part of that, then, is thatI offer it up for all those who
you know, whatever, whatever theoffering is for, therefore,
(05:56):
what it makes it, it'sredemptive in that it makes, by
joining it to the suffering ofChrist, by no-transcript,
because he was true God, trueman.
So, part of the spiritual side,without getting deep into
(06:18):
another two-hour discussion onsuffering, yeah, I think it's
very helpful, but I think it's amatter of learning to move away
from our self-preoccupation andjoining it to the suffering of
Christ.
And we talk about suffering forChrist, but that happens not
necessarily with the idea of Iwant to suffer.
(06:42):
It is a matter of I accept thesuffering that comes to me,
right, and joining it to Christ.
Even though there are saintsthat talk about I want to suffer
, but that's the language thatwe use, but the reality is other
than that.
In the, for example, the examplethat I've used before is, as I
(07:04):
stand outside of a family and Ilook at the family and the
suffering that I see is havingto go to work, having to provide
for the children that areungrateful, having to change
diapers, having to feed them,having to send them to school
and getting up and doing allthis stuff for them.
From the outside it looks as ifit's suffering, but within that
(07:30):
particular reality that I amnot a part of, it is not
suffering.
It is a gesture of love, and sothat is the difference.
The difference is we talk aboutsuffering, but the person that
is in love with Christ doesn'tsee it as suffering.
The person that is in love withChrist sees it as a gesture of
love for Christ and for thechurch that Christ loves.
(07:51):
So it's a matter of perspective, and so I always tell people
suffering for the sake ofsuffering is pathological, and
God does not want that.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
God does not want that.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
It's a matter of where are you in your
relationship with the lord right, and so this, then, is the
understanding that we shouldhave uh.
That is why, for example, um, ifyou remember uh in chirp, the
gospel, that we have uh for theevening before and sat on
(08:23):
Saturday the gospel of theinstitution right, and we have
Jesus washing the feet and wherewe have Peter unable to accept
the fact that Jesus is doingsomething so humiliating?
Because Peter sees it outsideof the relationship.
Jesus is in the relationshipand he doesn't see it as
(08:45):
humiliating.
He sees it as a gesture ofintimacy and love.
Same thing here with thesuffering.
It is a matter of where are youin your relationship with
Christ, the deeper you are inthat relationship with Christ.
Suffering is not suffering.
Suffering is a gesture of lovethat you make towards Christ and
also towards his church, whomhe loves, and therefore you love
(09:06):
towards Christ and also towardshis church, whom he loves, and
therefore you love becauseChrist loves.
And it is a gesture of love forthe community outside of myself
.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
So oh, and you know it's kind of an interesting,
it's a good contemplation, Ithink, when it comes now to
segue back into our topic, mary,because you know we love at
best dimly right because of oursin Right, and you know, and how
(09:37):
great is her love because it'snot encumbered by that sin,
because it's not encumbered bythat sin, and equally, like, how
great must her suffering havebeen to like watch her son be
crucified and all that kind ofstuff, and so, and I think where
we left off last time was kindof this comparison between how
(10:00):
Eve it was like Eve's obediencewas undone by Mary's obedience.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Right, so excellent segue.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
So, speaking again, speaking of the image that you
brought up of Mary at the footof the cross, right Again this
whole idea of faith and Mary asthe archetype of what it is to
(10:33):
be a disciple, a faithfuldisciple.
And so let's go to Articles 57and 58 of archetype, of the
pilgrim church's journey offaith.
Now, archetype we're nottalking about a psychological
(10:54):
archetype, we're not talkingabout Jungian archetype here.
By archetype we mean model andexample, right, this is the
model and example.
For example, in the Lord of theRings, gandalf is the archetype
of the wisdom figure.
Gandalf is the sage.
(11:14):
Gandalf is the wisdom figure,so he is the archetype, he is
the model and example of what itis to be wise.
Aragorn is the archetype ofhealthy masculinity, right, the
healthy king, right, the.
So there, what we mean byarchetype is the model and
example, right?
(11:35):
So the council fathers aresaying that Mary is the model
and example of what it is to bea faithful pilgrim.
Excuse me so, in Article 57,the Council Fathers say this is
from the Magentium.
This union of the mother withthe son in the work of salvation
(11:58):
is made manifest from the timeof Christ's virginal conception
up to his death.
It is shown first of all, whenMary, arising in haste to go to
visit Elizabeth, is greeted byher as blessed because of her
(12:20):
belief in the promise ofsalvation and between Mary and
the Word made flesh.
And the work of salvation isthat as soon as Mary conceives
the Word first, they say in herheart and in her womb what is
the first thing that she does?
She ministers.
(12:41):
The first thing she does is togo and help, go and take care of
her older cousin who is, uh,pregnant and in her sixth month.
I think is what the scripturesays.
So it is, and again, it's not amatter of people don't
understand or don't appreciatethe difficulty of that ministry,
because it's not a matter ofyou.
(13:03):
You know, getting on 35 andgoing up north for an hour or so
, it is, you know.
We don't know if she walkedbecause it's not.
You know, having or did theyhave enough money to hire a
donkey, or because you couldn'tafford a mule or a horse because
the horse was for warriors andmules were warriors too.
(13:26):
So a donkey, could you afford?
A donkey on you?
know, the money that joseph hadfrom being a carpenter and so,
and then it would take days, andin the heat, and so do you
travel, and so there's banditsand there's all.
This was a very, very difficultundertaking that most of the
time we just pass over.
(13:47):
We don't think about thedifficulty and the act of faith
that Mary knew it was adangerous thing, mary knew it
was going to be a very difficultthing, and yet she's moved by
the word to go and attend to hercousin, to her cousin.
Okay, so this then is part ofthat the union between the
(14:08):
mother and the son in the workof salvation, in this what we
call the visitation.
So continuing on with number 57.
This promise of salvation andthe precursor, john the Baptist,
leaped with joy in the womb ofhis mother.
This union is manifest also atthe birth of our Lord, who did
not diminish his mother'svirginal integrity but
(14:28):
sanctified it.
When the mother of God joyfullyshowed her firstborn son to the
shepherds and magi, when shepresented him to the Lord in the
temple, making the offering ofthe poor, she heard Simeon
foretelling at the same timethat her son would be a sign of
contradiction and that a swordwould pierce the mother's soul
(14:49):
that out of many hearts,thoughts might be revealed when
the child Jesus was lost andthey had sought him, sorrowing.
His parents found him in thetemple taking up the things that
were his father's business, andthey did not understand the
word of their son.
His mother, indeed, kept thesethings to be pondered over in
her heart.
So these are all examples ofwhat it is to be a pilgrim,
(15:17):
disciple in faith.
So the idea of Mary giving birth, the idea of, all of a sudden,
why are the shepherds here?
The shepherds were themarginalized of the society and
the magi were non-believers ornon-Israel, they didn't belong
to the covenant, and so for themto come and for her to like
(15:40):
okay, I don't know what this isabout.
I trust in God's plan.
This is part of God, god's planunfolding.
So I need to be able to enterinto that and embrace that.
And then, at the presentationthat we're celebrating tomorrow,
so in the face of thepresentation, when the Lord is
(16:01):
brought into the temple andfulfilling the law Mary and
Joseph were faithful abiders ofthe law and then to hear Simeon
and Anna talk about the baby andthey're like what, what Anna
talk?
about the baby and they're likewhat, what?
And then this, you know, oracleof Simeon.
You know foretelling her sorrow.
(16:23):
So all of these are moments offaith, and so it could have been
otherwise.
And, as you said before too, Ihave absolutely no idea what
it's like to be immaculatelyconceived.
I'm not even going to try toguess, but what would our
(16:44):
reaction be in those situationsif somebody tells me something
like this about my child, or youknow, like, okay, loony dude,
he's one of those church peoplewho never leaves the church and
he's just crazy.
Um, so there's a lot ofdifferent things that are being
presented here by the councilfathers in term of mary's
journey of faith yeah, and soyou know what, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
one of my, one of my favorite things about the
christmas narrative, um, is thethe shepherds.
Because when it was just randomone year at christmas, like the
light bulb finally turned on inmy head and I was like not just
that the shepherds weremarginalized, but like what do
shepherds protect?
Well, they protect the sheepand their lambs, and Jesus is
(17:29):
the Lamb of God.
So of course God would sendshepherds to protect him, kind
of thing.
And I was just like what youknow, mind him kind of thing.
And I was just like what youknow, mind blown kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
So did you get up in the middle of mass and go I got
it, I got it yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
I almost wanted to.
I was like what, oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
God moments.
Yeah, so, continuing on innumber 58 of the chapter 8, and
again, this is again the wholeidea of Mary's journey of faith
In the public life of Jesus,mary makes significant
appearances.
This is so even at the verybeginning.
(18:12):
When the marriage feast of Canamoved with pity, she brought
about, by her intercession, thebeginning miracles of Jesus, the
Messiah.
In the course of her son'spreaching, she received the
words whereby, in extolling akingdom beyond the calculations
and bonds of flesh and blood, hedeclared blessed those who
heard and kept the word of God,as she was faithfully doing.
(18:36):
After this manner, the BlessedVirgin advanced in her
pilgrimage of faith andfaithfully preserved in her
union with her Son onto thecross, where she stood in
keeping with the divine plan,grieving exceedingly with her
only begotten Son, unitingherself with a maternal heart
with his sacrifice and lovinglyconsenting to the immolation of
(18:59):
this victim, which she herselfhad brought forth.
Finally, she was given by thesame Christ Jesus, dying on the
cross as a mother to hisdisciple, with these words Woman
, behold thy son, woman, beholdthy son.
Okay, so the whole idea of Maryas the model and exemplar of
(19:27):
what it is to be a faithfuldisciple as we journey through
space and time as a pilgrimchurch.
So we have here in number 58,the first thing that is brought
up is the wedding at Cana.
And when Jesus says, woman,what is this to you?
And I, I mean.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, my time is not coming.
My time is not coming whatRight?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And Mary's response is do whatever he tells you.
She had faith right.
She had faith in this son andshe had faith in this situation
right.
And so there's a lot of thingsgoing on here.
In this sign.
We're talking about John'sgospel, so John doesn't use the
(20:06):
word miracle, he uses the wordsign.
So the sign here is about one.
We talked about the wedding cupin in the jewish uh, marriage
ceremony, right, yeah, the wholeidea of wine.
Wine is joyful, wine is part ofthe wedding banquet.
(20:27):
Uh, wine for then also is beingpresented to us as eucharist.
It it is.
It is the blood, right, and itis this new wine.
And so, as the ablutions, allthe water that is used for all
the ceremonial cleansing, isdone away with and replaced with
wine, is replaced with thesacraments.
(20:47):
This is the way we wouldunderstand it Then that there's
something here, there is a faithstance here, that Mary is not
just Mary, but Mary is also, atthis moment, an image and model
of the church, the believingcommunity, right?
So there's a lot going on inthis sign that the council
(21:10):
fathers are bringing up, right.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
And then it goes to— and anybody who hadn't listened
to that episode, it's called theLink Between the Jewish
Marriage Customs and the LastSupper Great episode On our
podcast.
Yeah, yeah, and oh, and there'sactually—there's two of them,
because then the other one isexploring the symbolism of wine
and marriage in Jewish andCatholic traditions.
So yeah, there's a lot going on.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, so yeah there's a lot going on, yeah, and so
then the next thing is whereMary doesn't say anything, that
this is the part that they bring, where they say your mother's
looking for you, and Jesus sayswho are my mother, my brothers?
And so then this whole idea offidelity, what is it to be
faithful to Christ?
(21:55):
To be faithful to Christ is tobelong to his body, to belong to
his family, and so one of thethings that we have to deal with
as believers is that, manytimes, our blood family is not
part of the faith family, and soone of the things that we have
to deal with, then, is the ideathat I have to understand that
(22:17):
my faith family is my family.
This is who I by blood.
I now belong to this new group,and it's difficult because we
have natural bonds.
Obviously, we have natural bondswith our blood family, but my
real blood family, the realblood family, is now the
community of faith that I belongto, and Mary is seen as this
(22:39):
model and image of this faithfuldisciple, then the last thing
that they bring in this numberis the one that you, the example
that you brought up earlier, isMary at the foot of the cross,
(23:03):
and the faith stance is thatMary, even though she sees this,
this is the consequence, right,we see her son enduring the
passion, we see her son beingrejected.
We see her son being spat upon.
We see her son being condemnedto a very shameful death for a
Jew, on being condemned to avery shameful death for a Jew,
not just to be crucified becauseto be hung on a tree is to be
lost we would say perdition tobe damned.
(23:25):
Right To be in a situationwhere the Jewish faithful would
see that this is a damning thingthis person is damned because
they're being hung on a tree butalso a very shameful death
because they were crucifiednaked.
And again, I've always broughtthis up in other situations
where I say, to this day, westill can't deal with the shame
(23:47):
because to this day, we stillhave Jesus on a cross with a
loincloth, because we reallycannot deal with the idea of a
naked Jesus, because it's notand it has nothing to do with
being prudish, it has to do withshame, it's the vulnerability.
The person is completelyexposed, and so this is again
(24:08):
another situation.
And then for Jesus to tell hismom this is your son.
You know the beloved discipleright, this is your son.
And for Mary then to take thatto believe that this whole idea
of this faith is that all thesedifferent things are being torn
(24:28):
apart.
Our world is being torn apart.
For those of us that don't havethe luxury to be immaculate,
what is it like for animmaculate heart to suffer this?
It must be something beyond mycapacity to understand or our
(24:53):
capacity to understand.
But also there's thisImmaculate Heart that is willing
to say I still believe.
I know that God is faithful,even though this doesn't make
sense, even though this does not.
I cannot wrap my head aroundthis.
I don't know how, but I knowthat God is faithful.
(25:13):
I don't know how this is goingto turn out, but all I do know
is that God is faithful, andthat is in the stance of the
faithful disciple that Maryrepresents for us.
And there's this idea of whatdoes faith encompass?
Right, and it is encompassingthis ability.
(25:38):
One of the things I tell peopleis that you genuinely, genuinely
, have to believe that God is myloving Father and that, as my
loving Father, he holds me inthe palm of His hand.
And as he holds me in the palmof His hand, I have to trust and
(25:59):
believe that, whatever happensin my life, whatever occurs in
my life, for good or ill, ispart of God's design and part of
God's will for me to grow in myown sanctity, in my own
redemption, my own journey.
And I have to believe this that, yes, we live in a broken world
.
It's not a world that Godwanted us to live in.
He wanted us to live in Eden.
But this is the world thatwe're living in.
And so I have to believe that,in spite of the brokenness of
(26:21):
the world, in spite of mysuffering for the consequences
of my own decisions or otherpeople's decisions, that somehow
God, who is the God of history,will bring it all to completion
, and it is for the health andwell-being of each one of us.
I have to believe that, or elselife would be unbearable.
And that is the faith stance,that is Mary's stance, the
(26:43):
stance that we have.
Our devotion to Mary is notjust about praying the rosary.
Our devotion to Mary isimitating the model of faith
that she has exemplified for us.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, and it's funny too.
This morning's mass readingsfrom Hebrews.
Paul says faith is therealization of what is hoped for
and evidence of things not seen.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yes, yeah, those are great readings this week and
next week for Hebrews.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
So okay then I think, before we go on to Article 59,
we have been talking about threedifferent.
We've been talking about thefive steps, the three different
steps ahead.
Let me recap that right.
So there are five differentsteps of Mary's role in the
salvation of history.
One was the Old Testamentprophecies, which was Article 55
(27:46):
.
Two was the New Testament,mary's obedience, which is
Articles 56 and 57, which wejust finished.
The next point is point three,mary's receptive faith, which is
I'm sorry, okay, I haven't hadenough coffee yet Step two.
You're going to have to editthis.
(28:08):
Step two New Testament, mary'sobedience, article 56.
Mary's receptive faith, whichis step three, which is articles
57, 58,.
And now we go to step four, orpoint four Mary's connection to
Christ brings her to beintimately connected with the
(28:28):
church, and this is article 59.
And then the fifth point thechurch sees herself in Mary's
assumption.
That's part three of chaptereight.
So we'll go to that next, butfirst we have this point Mary's
connection to Christ brings herto be intimately connected with
(28:49):
the church.
Article 59 is Mary at prayerwith the apostles in preparation
for Pentecost, 59.
But since it has pleased Godnot to manifest solemnly the
mystery of the salvation of thehuman race before he would pour
forth the Spirit promised byChrist.
(29:11):
We see the apostles, before theday of Pentecost, persevering
with one mind in prayer with thewomen and Mary, the mother of
Jesus, and with his brethren,and Mary, by her prayers,
imploring the gift of the Spiritwho had already overshadowed
her in the Annunciation.
Finally, the Immaculate Virgin,preserved free from all guilt
(29:36):
of original sin, on thecompletion of her earthly
sojourn, was taken up body andsoul into heavenly glory and
exalted by the Lord as Queen ofthe Universe, that she might be
the more fully conformed to herSon, the Lord of Lords and the
conqueror of sin and death.
Okay, again, the Council Fatherspack a lot into this one
(29:59):
paragraph, this one number,number 59.
This whole idea of perseveringwith one mind in prayer with the
women and marry, the mother ofJesus, and with his brethren.
Okay, remembering that beforePentecost, brethren.
(30:20):
Okay, remembering that beforePentecost, the community is
being persecuted.
They're afraid they're going tobe dragged out and be crucified
, they're hiding, they don'tknow what to do.
Then they have the experienceof, on the road to Emmaus,
there's the experience of theresurrection, and then they're
told to go and wait for him.
And so they go and they'repraying and they're excited Now
(30:41):
that they're excited, but theystill don't understand what's
going on.
So they're in this crossroadsof faith, of trying to
understand what they'veexperienced with the crucifixion
and now the experience of therisen Lord, and now they're all
coming together and praying andwaiting for this coming of the
Lord, whatever that might be.
(31:02):
And so here we have, then, mary,then, as a symbolic of not just
, again, not just Mary themother of Jesus, but Mary as
model and image of faithfuldisciple praying for and
imploring God to manifest Hiswill right, what is your will
for us?
(31:23):
And so what is the will?
The will is that the Holy Spiritcomes down upon them and
inflames them and blesses them,and they have the gift of
tongues and they go forth topreach the good news of this
reconciliation that is wroughtin Jesus, the Lamb right.
And so here we have, then, thisidea of Mary, who is the mother
(31:47):
of Jesus, but also a model andimage of the Church.
Then, for us, then, what is sheexemplifying?
She's exemplifying for us thisidea of interceding for the
Church, praying for the Church,praying for the coming of the
Spirit.
Are we following that model andexample of Mary that prays for
the well-being of the Church,the greater Church, the
(32:09):
community of faith, as thecommunity finds itself right,
and are we capable of doing itin that same spirit and
dedication that Mary shows as isexemplified in the Gospels that
we're told?
And here again I think it's forus to look at do we intercede
(32:34):
for the entirety of the churchand do we intercede for God's
will, or do we have a particularthing that we want and we try?
to convince God of that thingthat we want.
Again, different approaches,right.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yeah, yeah, it's easy for us to get caught up in
ourselves, right, yeah, yeah,it's easy for us to get caught
up in ourselves, right?
This is kind of what we weretalking about earlier.
Yeah, yeah, but in all aspectsof life, it's easy for us to
shrink our world down to just us, or just our family, or just
our job, or just our whatever.
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
And the difficult part is and this is true of all
spirituality well, christianspirituality about the rest of
the world, uh, is to get beyondour self-interest.
Can I find a way to not be soworried about my self?
Right?
Can I understand that I belongto a people, that my identity is
(33:37):
not just me, but my identity isbelonging to this people who
has been now sealed with theblood of the lamb right, this
greater community that I belongto?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
yeah, okay, well, and that's like sin.
When you sin like you don'tjust hurt yourself, you hurt the
church yes, right.
Right, yes, which is part, Iguess why the public nature of
confession.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yes, right, the communal yeah, their communal,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so then they end thisparagraph with referring to the
assumption, without necessarilysaying the assumption about
what's taking up body and soulinto heavenly glory.
(34:19):
So this is, then, part ofMary's model and image, exemplar
of the faithful disciple, butalso as model and image of
believing church.
All of us are called to sharein that Trinitarian life of
(34:45):
Father, son and Spirit.
That's what we're called to.
And so Mary, as immaculate,then conceived without sin, as
the tabernacle of the covenantand the incarnation of the
covenant, right as that, wewould say, physical temple where
(35:07):
the Word was conceived, right,the consequences of all this,
the God's choice, her beingimmaculately conceived, all this
, and then in Mary, what we haveis in the assumption.
We have the promise of our ownassumption, because in the creed
we proclaim and believe that inthe resurrection of the body
(35:28):
right, we as Catholics believethat our body is a part of who
we are.
We don't leave it behind.
It will be transformed, it willbe conformed to the image of
Christ's transformed andglorified body.
We don't know what that is, butwe know, we believe that and we
proclaim that.
And so in Mary you have, thenshe is the first of us.
(35:53):
She is the first of our kind ashuman persons.
Not that Jesus is not a humanperson, but Jesus is true God
and true man.
We have in Jesus that uniquemarriage between God and man.
But Mary as redeemed, jesus isthe redeemer.
Mary is the first of theredeemed that enjoys that
(36:15):
promise that we all have.
We all have that promise If weare faithful disciples in
according to the mercy and loveof God, the Father.
The desire is that we share inthat, and so Mary represents
that church.
Mary represents that communityof faith we would talk about in
old Catholic language, we wouldtalk about the church triumphant
(36:37):
, all the saints that are withthe Lord now, all the saints
that are in glory with Mary.
That she represents thiscommunity and it is a community
that we're all called to.
So it's a matter of us, then,as pilgrims and looking at Mary,
see that the consequence of myfidelity, the consequence of my
(37:00):
being other-centered as Christis, and to be other-centered as
Mary was, other-centered in theimage and likeness of Christ,
her Son, that the consequence ofthat is to live and to share in
the Trinitarian life in thefullness of my being.
So Mary is fully who she is,who God meant her to be, as she
(37:24):
enjoys the Trinitarian communionin that experience of love that
exists between Father, son andSpirit.
And that is what we're allcalled to.
We're all called to that.
That is what we are destinedfor, that is for us.
When Catholics talk aboutpredestination, that's what they
mean.
We mean for us, predestinationmeans that God has desired for
(37:45):
all of us to share in thatTrinitarian life.
It doesn't necessarily refer tothose that are marked for
salvation, those that are markedfor damnation.
Predestination for us is Godhas predestined us all to share
in the Trinitarian life.
Now, whether we want to go ornot, that's up to us, right.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah, and it's like you can't even contemplate what
that must be like either.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
No, it's all speculation, because we don't
know.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
I heard somebody talking um.
I think it was like on pintswith aquinas, but I don't know
if he was quoting someone else.
But he was saying how it's like, um, it's like if you were an
infant in the womb and likeyou're wondering what it must be
like after you're born likeyou'd have no idea.
You couldn't even imagine whatit's like outside of the womb,
um, and how similar it must belike after you're born.
Like you'd have no idea.
(38:37):
You couldn't even imagine whatit's like outside of the womb
and how similar it must be whenwe die.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Yeah, yeah, and so part of this whole idea of Mary
being queen, right, and it's notbecause she, it's not like she
entered a contest and like, okay, so I won the queen of universe
contest?
Speaker 1 (38:54):
No yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
It is because Jesus is Lord of Lords.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
His communion with us , his love for us is so deep and
so transformative and unitiveis that we share in his kingship
.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah, yeah, it's like the queen mother is like the
king might, and probably thenthe wife of a previous king.
So here it would not be thequeen mother, here would be the
queen, she would be the queen inthe fact that we, as church,
are both bride.
We are bride, we're called tobe bride of Christ, the church
(39:54):
is the bride of Christ, and soMary is the first of the bride
of Christ, which is really weirdfor us to talk about, since
Mary is his mom.
But it's not the bride in thatkind of way.
It is the only way that we canspeak of union in a way that is
(40:16):
sort of comprehensible for us.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Yeah, it's one of those things where there's so
many layers to the symbolismthat it's like….
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Yeah, the only image and this is the Old Testament
image, the Old Testament imageof marriage.
It's not that it's marriage,but it's the only thing that we
can.
It's the only reference pointthat we have, and this reference
point is is like trying toequate um, a, very, a, very
(40:47):
smart, smart, uh, I was going tosay mammal, whatever with
Einstein.
So it's radically different,but it's the only thing that we
have is intelligence orintellect, right?
And so here, the only thing wehave is this idea of marriage,
(41:12):
which is what, which is completeand total gift of self to
another, right, yeah, it's union, right, right.
So it's really about union.
It's not about marriage, it'sabout union and gift of self to
others.
So here then, mary's queenshipis the queenship of the church,
the queenship of the Bride ofChrist.
Christ, not because it is amerit that they have earned, but
(41:40):
it is a gift that the kinggives to the bride.
The union is so deep that theythemselves become, you would say
, regal.
They share in the regal natureof Christ because of the depth
of union.
I know it's a very difficultconcept to talk about.
We're talking all aboutspeculative theology and trying
(42:01):
to talk about, you know, thingsthat are difficult to talk about
, but that's where the Councilof Fathers went, and so that's
where we have to try to get inthere and try to dive in there
and find the richness of theseimages that they have used.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Yeah Well, and they started at the very beginning of
chapter eight.
They're like we're not tryingto lay everything out there and
define everything, right, thatall of this is for the benefit
of the church, right?
And so these are things tocontemplate, like what does it
mean?
Because, you know, as men, weeven perceive marriage as one
way, versus like my wife wouldthink of it.
Mean because, right, you know,as men, we even perceive
marriage as one way, versus likemy wife would think of it
(42:39):
differently, right, becauseshe's a woman, so she has a
different kind of experience andintellect towards those kind of
concepts and so it's justsomething to pray with and
something to really spend timein contemplation.
Right, right, right.
You know well, uh, what do yousay?
You want to wrap this one uphere before we move on to the
church the blessed virgin andthe church, which is the fifth
(43:03):
point.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
The church sees herself in Mary's assumption,
that assumption being the effectof redemption.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
So that'll be the next point we cover alright.
Well, father, thanks for this.
You're very welcome.
God bless yeah, everybody,thanks for joining us.
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Tell your mom we're praying for her.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
I will Bye Bye.
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