June 16, 2025 • 59 mins
Father Stephen and John dive deep into Chapter 8 of Lumen Gentium, exploring Mary's unique role in salvation history and addressing common misconceptions about Catholic Marian devotion.
• Mary's maternal role toward humanity doesn't diminish Christ's unique mediation but shows its power
• All Mary's influence originates from divine pleasure, not necessity, and depends entirely on Christ
• Mary is intimately united with the Church as both an exemplar and mother in the order of grace
• The Council distinguishes between veneration of Mary and worship of God
• True Marian devotion leads to imitating her virtues rather than mere emotional attachment
• Mary's Assumption serves as a sign of hope pointing to Christ's victory for all Christians
• The document expresses hope for unity with separated brethren in honoring the Mother of God
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
I'm Ada Lee and you're listening to my Friend's
Friar.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Good morning John, Good morning Father.
It's been a long time, I know.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I keep laughing because it's I'm thinking it's
like trying to have aconversation.
I keep laughing because I'mthinking it's like trying to
have a conversation.
It's almost like when peoplewould have conversations via
written letter, handwrittenletter, back and forth.
That's what this is like we'repicking up something that we
last talked about like two,three months ago, kind of thing.
(00:41):
At this point, yeah, LikeFebruary, was it?
February yeah, it wasValentine's Day is when we
released the last one, so it wasjust before Valentine's Day
when we talked Goodness Well,welcome to the podcast and
thanks for joining me and myfriend, the friar, father
Stephen Sanchez, discalcedCarmelite Priesthood.
(01:03):
We don't know where we areanymore.
We actually do.
It's like 30 minutes now tryingto figure out where we were in
this conversation, so we'repretty sure we know where we're
picking back up.
Yes, yeah, and thank you foryour prayers and everybody who's
(01:23):
listening.
Thank you all for the prayersfor mom and everything, and I
think her beautiful or herbeautiful, her she's beautiful.
Her funeral it was beautiful.
It was really neat to.
It was the mass was at theparish where I grew up, and St
(01:46):
Paul down in Corpus Christi,texas, and or St Paul the
apostle, and it's the sameparish where my dad's funeral
mass was, and so it's.
It was just a really beautifulmoment to get to kind of
goodness, I guess 20 years or soafter since my dad passed away
for for my mom and so, uh, yeah,24 years, and so just to kind
(02:08):
of close that loop, and you knowshe's in the uh, arms of Jesus
and she gets to pray.
Have hope, get to that.
She's with dad again and, um,all everything is good and
glorious up in heaven and it'sjust.
It was a beautiful experience.
So I think the she opened ourlast two episodes because that
(02:31):
was something she really wantedto do.
She wanted to get better so shecould be on the podcast.
So I think I'm going to.
I think I said I was going tolet her open all these for Mary,
so I'll probably let her do theopening for this one too.
It's kind of like a hurrah.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
And now she has a better understanding of Mary
than any of us.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, she's probably going up there just shaking her
head like, oh you boys, You'reclose, but All right.
The Blessed Virgin and theChurch.
This is point five of LumenGentium, chapter eight.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
We had begun speaking on the role of the Blessed
Virgin Mary in the economy ofsalvation, and the document
gives us five points.
And the first point was on theOld Testament prophecies.
The second point was on the NewTestament and Mary's obedience.
Then the third point was Mary'sreceptive faith.
(03:33):
And the fourth point was Mary'sconnection to Christ brings her
to be intimately connected withthe church.
And then the fifth point thechurch sees herself in Mary's
assumption, that assumptionbeing the effect of redemption.
So we begin then Roman numeralthree in Lumen Gentium, chapter
(03:55):
eight, the Blessed Virgin andthe church.
So number 60 of Lumen Gentium,number 60 of Lumen Gentium.
I'm watching John walk on theceiling here, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Sorry, Rosie wanted out of the room because she was
sleeping in her little dog bed,so I go let her out.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Okay.
So number 60.
There is but one mediator, aswe know from the words of the
Apostle, for there is one Godand one mediator of God in men,
the man, Christ Jesus, who gavehimself as redemption for all.
(04:38):
The maternal duty of Marytoward men in no wise obscures
or diminishes this uniquemediation of Christ, but rather
shows his power.
I just want to pause there, andthat's because a lot of times
we have people who againseparated brethren, who speak
(05:04):
about there's only one Redeemer,one Savior, yes, and we're like
, yes, there is, we're 1,000% inagreement with that right.
So Mary's role is within thatmediatorship of Christ, right?
So anyway, we'll talk aboutthat in a minute.
(05:28):
Continuing on number 60, for allthe salvific influence of the
Blessed Virgin on men originatesnot from some inner necessity
but from a divine pleasure.
This means that Christ haschosen Mary to be part of this
(05:49):
economy, right?
Not he is the only mediator,but somehow it is Christ's
pleasure that he incorporatesmembers of the church, Mary
being a member of the church inthat same design plan of
redemption.
So we'll talk about that alittle bit further on.
It flows forth from thesuperabundance of the merits of
(06:16):
Christ, rests on his mediation,depends entirely on it and draws
all its power from it, dependsentirely on it and draws all its
power from it.
In no way does it impede, butrather does it foster the
immediate union of the faithfulwith Christ.
Okay here, so because somehow inGod's plan, in the way, Christ
(06:38):
is the head and Christ is thesource.
He is the only truth, he is theonly mediator, he is the only
Savior and in honoring hismother that gave him his sacred
humanity, that brings him intohuman history and is part of
this whole divine plan ofredemption, then Mary, as part
(07:05):
of the church, as a member ofthe church, as a believer, as
the first redeemed, then makingher part of this is a way in
which the faithful, us, thechurch, there's an immediate
union of the faithful withChrist.
So in Mary's close work withChrist, that is a sign and a
(07:35):
symbol of what all of us aschurch should be and looks
forward to in that union withChrist.
It's almost like a propheticsign of where we are going as
church, of what we're meant tobe as church we're meant to be.
(07:55):
These co-operators, these, asPaul would say, the ambassadors
of this kingdom, ambassadors ofChrist, were meant to work very
closely together and in Mary, wehave already in reality not our
(08:16):
reality, but in the futurereality of the church.
As we work towards thatcelestial truth, that celestial
truth, the faithful are alreadyworking in close union,
proximity with Christ in thisdesign of redemption.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, and I love talking about Mary with you
because, as a Carmelite, I'mtalking about Mary with you,
because, as a Carmelite, youhave a little extra love for
Mary, kind of thing.
Yeah, but your Mariology iswell-formed as a Carmelite as
well.
Right, because everything isbased on Jesus and not, as I
(09:03):
would probably wager, a lot ofCatholics around the world.
It's not well formed in us, andso there's a tendency towards I
don't want to say abuse, butwe're going about it the wrong
way, kind of thing.
Yeah, this is a lack ofcatechesis.
Yeah, this is a lack ofcatechesis.
Yeah, and so to me I love thisbecause all of it makes sense.
(09:33):
If it gives God joy that youand I sit around and talk about
godly things, right, and eitherwe ourselves and or someone else
benefits from those kinds ofconversations.
If that gives him joy, like howmuch more joy would it give?
And that as, as you said, likethe first saved kind of thing,
(10:11):
how he chose her and saved her,how much more, I guess, joy
would her perfect obedience givehim?
Well, and I don't know, maybe mybroken obedience gives him just
as much joy, you know, becausehe's like oh, he's trying, you
know.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Bless his heart.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, yeah, I do think it's.
I think catechesis on Mary issomething that we're all, when I
say we, like the laity of theworld, are probably missing a
lot of.
So I don't know, I like it.
This all makes sense, to me atleast.
(10:53):
Probably because I talked toyou, but carry on, good sir,
okay.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So then that was number 60.
Now we go to 61, number 61 ofLumen Gentium, chapter 8,.
Predestined from eternity bythat decree of divine providence
which determined theincarnation of the Word to be
the Mother of God, the BlessedVirgin was on this earth the
Virgin Mother of the Redeemerand above all others and, in a
(11:23):
singular way, the generousassociate and humble handmaid of
the Lord.
She conceived, brought forthand nourished Christ.
She presented him to the Fatherin the temple and was united
with him by compassion as hedied on the cross.
In this singular way, shecooperated by her obedience,
(11:46):
faith, hope and burning charityin the work of the Savior, in
giving back supernatural life tosouls.
Wherefore she is our mother inthe order of grace.
Okay, so, okay.
So there's a lot of realities,superimposed layers and
(12:12):
realities that we have to beaware of and remind ourselves of
.
So Mary is the first of theredeemed.
Mary is our sister becauseshe's a creature right, but here
the council father says but youhave to remember that because
she gave our humanity to theWord and by giving birth to the
(12:37):
Word, true God and true man,then that in the order of grace,
then she is also our motherbecause she is the mother of
Christ, who is the source of allgrace, the source of all
redemption.
So it's important that we notseparate Mary from Christ and
(12:57):
his unique and only mediatorshipunique and only mediatorship,
right.
And sometimes because of a lackof catechesis, because people
sometimes speak out of emotioninstead of out of understanding,
(13:17):
sometimes that's where we canget caught up and we give our
separated brethren conniptions.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
And rightly so.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
And rightly so Because sometimes we within
Catholic, within the Catholicworld, there is Catholic
language and we understand thelanguage.
But when you speak to somebodyoutside of the Catholic world
using Catholic language, youconfuse them because they don't
understand what it is thatyou're referring to or what your
reference points are Right.
(13:50):
So that's why it's importantthat we always make that
distinction.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah, but it's like.
It's like translating languageson the fly too, right.
So it's because you have allthis theological language like
you're saying.
So you're like, how do I saythis in layman's terms?
And then, especially if it'ssomething you're excited, it's
so easy to misspeak.
That's really.
It is one of the scariestthings about doing a podcast too
is like if you were going tosit down and write a book, you
(14:15):
could take as long as you needto make sure that what you're
saying is correct, but whenyou're just chatting with
someone like you mess up all thetime.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Oh yeah, you know, and we've done it, that's
recorded.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And then if it's recorded, thensomebody's like oh, look what
the Catholics say.
You know, and it's like sorry,man, I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yeah, oops, we're just talking about the faith.
So let me go on to number 62.
So let me go on to number 62.
Yep, and this is 60, 61, 62.
So that's the sort of outliningMary's role in the church and
(15:09):
how we're trying to get to theplace where the assumption we
speak about the assumptionMary's body and soul assumed
into heaven, and how that is theeffect of redemption and how
that, basically, is a promise ofour own resurrected body.
Right, so that's what we'regoing to get to.
So then, number 62 of chapter 8.
The maternity of Mary, in theorder of grace, began with the
consent which she gave in faithat the Annunciation and which
(15:33):
she sustained without waveringbeneath the cross, and lasts
until the eternal fulfillment ofall the elect.
So I kind of kind of pausethere, okay, so one of the
things, the um, we have to againmultiple realities, many things
(15:59):
are going on at once.
So, Mary, still now, and untilall the elect are gathered at
the last day, right thefulfillment.
She continues then to cooperatewith Christ in his work of
(16:20):
redemption in the world, right,and up until the moment that all
of the elect are gathered,right.
So this is her.
And so why is this true?
It makes sense because ifsomeone is redeemed, and is
truly redeemed using a Calvinand Hobbes word, transmogrified,
(16:42):
truly transmogrified in Christ,then your desire is not about
yourself.
Your desire becomesother-centered, as Christ was
other-centered, and so Mary'sother-centeredness is about our
redemption.
She's concerned for ourredemption, those of us that are
still on the journey right,yeah.
(17:05):
And so—.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
And wouldn't this be true for you and I?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
when we pass away.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yes, right, we would—in our beatific vision, we
would be not concerned aboutourselves.
We'd be praying for everyoneelse, everybody else.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
That's it, because we want everyone—the will of the
Father is that all be saved, andso that is the will that drives
this continual missionary kindof desire.
So continuing on in number 62.
Taken up to heaven, she did notlay aside this salvific duty
(17:39):
but, by her constantintercession, continued to bring
us the gifts of eternalsalvation.
By her maternal charity, shecares for the brethren of her
son who still journey on earth,surrounded by dangers and
cultics, until they are led intothe happiness of their true
home.
(17:59):
Therefore, the Blessed Virginis invoked by the Church under
the titles of Advocate,auxiliatrix, adjuxtrix and
Mediatrix.
This, however, is to be sounderstood that it neither takes
away from nor adds anything tothe dignity and efficaciousness
(18:21):
of Christ, the one mediator,mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, okay,
okay.
So when you ask somebody topray for you, right?
You're not asking them to takethe place of Jesus.
You're not asking them to takethe place of Jesus, you're
(18:46):
asking them to mediate as well.
That with all the otherbelievers, you ask God's mercy
or God's mediation in whateversituation we find ourselves.
When you ask for help, again tocome before God and plead
before the throne, so anadvocate as well, right.
(19:07):
So all those things we can sayof the believers on our journey,
right, but that does not in anyway take away the
efficaciousness and the onlymediatorship of Jesus Christ,
right.
So the same thing with Mary.
(19:27):
Yeah, okay, continuing on tonumber 62.
I think this is important, forno creature could ever be
counted as equal with theincarnate word and redeemer.
That is a very importantstatement that I wish Catholics
would remember.
(19:48):
Just as the priesthood ofChrist is shared in various ways
by the ministers and by thefaithful, and as the one
goodness of God is reallycommunicated in different ways
to his creatures, so also theunique mediation of the Redeemer
(20:08):
does not exclude, but rathergives rise to a manifold
cooperation which is but asharing in this one source.
The Church does not hesitate toprofess this subordinate role
of Mary.
It knows it through unfailingexperience of it and commends it
to the hearts of the faithfulso that, encouraged by this
(20:32):
maternal help, they may the moreintimately adhere to the
mediator and redeemer.
Yeah, those last two sentencesare probably sentences a lot of
(20:54):
non-Catholic Christians havenever heard spoken by the
Catholic Church.
This is assumed that you knowthis.
It's assumed that you're awareof this.
It's assumed that you've beencatechized in this.
And what happens is when itgets translated into popular
piety.
The popular piety then can bemisleading to those who are not
(21:20):
of the culture within theCatholic culture, and even
within the Catholic culturethey're not educated.
Then again there's amisunderstanding of exactly what
is what's going on right.
For example, we have the manyimages of Mary.
Right you have Our Lady ofGuadalupe, our Lady of Lourdes,
our Lady of Fatima.
We have Our Lady of PromptSucker.
We have Our Lady of PerpetualHelp.
(21:42):
Okay, like, isn't it all thesame person?
Yes, it is the same person, butthese are different facets or
different ways of experiencingMary's sisterly maternity right.
And also you can say it is alsoa reflection of Christ's care
(22:08):
for us, or even God, theFather's care for us through
this creature right.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, yeah, and even like it makes me think with
ourselves too.
We're all multifaceted, right.
I'm a son, I'm a husband, I'm abrother, I'm a father, right?
So there's all these differentaspects, and I can care for you
in a brotherly way.
I can care for you in afatherly way, right?
And so why would it be anydifferent again with Mary, right
(22:36):
?
If every one of theseencounters with her, like every
one of these encounters with her, should point to, like you're
saying, an aspect of thefather's love that we get to
just experience through thatencounter with her?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Right, and it's the same thing with you.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, but I don't know why it is that people get
emotional when we talk aboutstuff like that.
When we talk about the role ofMary, right, whether it's a
separated brethren or Catholicsor even those that are closer to
Catholic tradition, sometimesit becomes more of an emotional
reaction instead of reallyactually sitting down and
thinking about it, thinking itout theologically, right?
(23:22):
So what is it that we're saying, right?
So yeah, and even you know,I've heard many priests say
stuff like oh my God, pleasedon't.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I remember the story about was it some retreat or
something you gave and you saidthat the, the prayer should be
made in such a way, and then thepriest came in and or maybe
even a bishop or something camein and said it like the wrong
way.
Right after yes, yeah, yes, yesuh oh, womp, womp exactly like,
(23:57):
okay, okay so anyway, yeah, butwords, words are hard, right,
and again, wait, that's.
We have to be charitable withone another to oh yeah, but I
think again it goes back.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
try to understand.
It goes back to the whole ideaof many times there's an
emotional element to this.
All right, and of course, yeah,especially for us.
You're like you know, you'regonna start dissing my mom, like
, of course I'm going to bow upon you, like what, say that
again, yeah, and so that's whathappens, right, and so it's like
(24:34):
okay, but you don't have aproper understanding and
sometimes, again, as I said,sometimes it's our own fault for
not catechizing our own peopleand helping them to understand
exactly the role of Mary in thechurch.
But, anyway, the council fathersare trying really hard here.
So that's why I wanted to getto, that's why we started this,
(24:58):
to talk about Mary, aboutchapter 8.
But then we decided to do moreto be able to understand the
context to be able to understandchapter eight of lumigensium
yeah, and it's like, um, haveyou ever seen shrek?
Uh, the movie, the first onewith like a thousand, yeah, yeah
, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
So the only thing I can really remember about it is
when the donkey is like, orshrek is saying there's layers
like an onion and you peel backthe layers and there's more and
more layers, right, and thedonkeys, what does he say?
He's like not everybody likesonions, or whatever.
How about parfaits?
So this is our, our marionparfait.
There you go is what all thisis about okay, so continuing on,
(25:40):
so, okay.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
So the first three articles of this section number
60, 61, 62, point out thesingular uniqueness of Christ as
the only mediator Again, onlymediator but also helps us to
see Mary's relationship toChrist's unique role as mediator
(26:04):
and how this role couldproperly be understood as
mediatrix, again, right, howMary uniquely enjoys a
particular relationship with therest of the faithful and with
Christ, the head.
Because of her uniqueness, sheis creature, but also she is the
(26:29):
one through whom the Word tookon our humanity.
And because of her ImmaculateConception, because she was
redeemed first, and because ofher Immaculate Conception, then,
her ability to respond fully toGod is unique to creation.
(26:53):
Okay, so that's important tounderstand.
Okay, so continuing on then, interms of Mary as Mediatrix.
The grace that a redeemedperson receives from Christ
becomes in him, in turn, asource of salvation for his
fellows.
(27:14):
Now, this is eminently andarchetypically true of Mary, so
that she, who originallyreceived into herself the source
of all life, is thereby aspiritual mother to all other
members of the church.
Okay, that's a quote from therole of the Blessed Virgin
(27:35):
Semmelroth the author.
Okay, so.
So there's two elements ofMary's mediation.
One, the historical, objective,existential connection with
Christ and his work ofredemption, and two, mary from
her place, outside of space andtime now, since her assumption
(28:04):
continues with a mother's loveto care for and intercede for
those on the road to redemption.
Okay, and going back to thisidea of mediatrix, this is
applicable to Mary in a veryunique way and we could also, we
could say in a concentrated way, just as it could be said of
you and I you are a mediatorbecause you are part of the
church and in your life and inyour acts of virtue and in your
(28:28):
striving for holiness, it is forthe church and so, in a way,
you are cooperating withChrist's singular mediatorship.
So you, in a way, are aco-mediator, right.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah, and like then it's saying is it 2 Peter?
We're a priestly people.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Right, exactly, and so this is something that needs
to be understood to the role ofMary, her priestly function.
Right, because this is part ofwho Christ is.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
And so again.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Hopefully this is laying some sort of
understanding.
We're probably nerding out here.
People are falling asleep.
Get to the point, dude.
This is the point.
So now we get to articles 63,64, and 65.
We're almost well I shouldn'tsay we're almost done.
(29:23):
We've got a ways to go yet we'llget there, though we'll get
there so in Numbers 63 to 65,mary is presented as the
archetype of the church, orthink of it as a prophetic image
, or think of it as an iconright of the church and as an
(29:48):
anti-type of the first Eve.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
So we have.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Eve.
Then you have the type right,which is okay.
You have the mother of humanityright, and so this is where a
lot of the early church fathersstarted comparing Mary and Eve.
So Mary is the new Eve.
Eve failed in her disobedience,Mary conquers through her
obedience.
And there's a lot of thesecommentators.
(30:13):
The early church fathers beganlooking at this and it's called
typology, but that's for anotherpodcast.
Okay, so the church is born ofthe side of the crucified Savior
, as Eve was taken from the sideof Adam.
That's one of the typologies.
The type is that Jesus on thecross is like the Adam, the new
(30:39):
Adam, and the new Adam sleeps indeath and in the sleep of death
.
When the soldier pierces theside of Jesus, the church comes
forth the flowing of the bloodand the water, which is the
signs and symbols of theEucharist and baptism.
So blood and water flows out.
(31:01):
So blood and water flows out.
So this is the church beingborn from the side of the Adam,
the new Adam that is asleep onthe cross of the church.
(31:24):
She represents the church.
So we can say that Mary, then,is also born from the side of
Jesus, even though she gavebirth to Jesus, right?
That's where all thesedifferent layers start coming
together.
Yeah, parfait, yeah.
So we'll get to this in aminute.
So Article 63, which we'll readin just a second, presents Mary
(31:46):
as the archetype, then Number64 presents the Church as an
antitype of Eve, and thenArticle 65 examines the
embodiment of the antitype inthe gathering of the members of
the Church, us.
So now 63.
By reason of the gift and roleof divine maternity, by which
(32:14):
she is united with her son, theRedeemer, and with his singular
graces and functions, theBlessed Virgin is also
intimately united with theChurch.
As St Ambrose taught, theMother of God is a type of the
Church in the order of faith,charity and perfect union with
Christ.
For in the mystery of theChurch, which is itself rightly
(32:37):
called Mother and Virgin, theBlessed Virgin stands out in
eminent and singular fashion asexemplar both of virgin and
mother.
Okay, so church is calledvirgin and mother, why?
Because, as people are baptized, the church is mothering these
(32:59):
people, right?
And she's called virgin becauseit is a virgin birth in the
spiritual realm, right?
So when someone is baptized atthe baptismal font, the church
is giving birth to a new member,and she is a virgin in giving
forth this spiritual child,right?
So that's where some of this isgoing by her belief and
(33:23):
obedience.
Not knowing man butovershadowed by the Holy Spirit
as the new eve, she broughtforth on earth the very Son of
the Father, showing an undefiledfaith not in the word of the
ancient serpent but in that ofGod's messenger.
The Son whom she brought forthis he whom God placed as the
(33:45):
firstborn among many brethren,namely the faithful, in whose
birth and education shecooperates with a maternal love.
Okay, so now 64 as the antitypeof Eve.
Excuse me allergies, excuse me,excuse me Allergies.
The church, indeed,contemplating her hidden
(34:20):
sanctity, imitating her charityand faithfully fulfilling the
Father's will, by receiving theword of God in faith, becomes
herself a mother.
The Church, by her preaching,she brings forth to a new and
immortal life the sons who areborn to her in baptism,
conceived by the Holy Spirit andborn of God.
She herself is a virgin whokeeps the faith given to her by
her spouse, whole and entire.
Imitating the mother of herLord and by the power of the
(34:44):
Holy Spirit, she keeps, withvirginal purity and entire faith
, a firm hope and a sincerecharity.
Now, one of the layers ofunderstanding of faith virginity
, excuse me.
And in the Western world wetend to connect virginity to
(35:05):
genitality right and to whethersomeone's had sexual intercourse
or not.
One of the layers of virginityis not about sexual purity, it
is about fidelity, thefaithfulness right.
It is about fidelity, thefaithfulness right.
So here the church is sayingher virginal, or her commitment
(35:29):
in faith, her fidelity to herLord is what makes her virginal.
And it is through this virginalcommitment, fidelity to the
Lord, it is in this fidelity tothe Lord that she gives birth to
(35:50):
her children conceived by theHoly Spirit.
Okay, does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Yeah, that's interesting.
I've never heard or thought ofit like that.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Okay, but like that?
Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Okay, and also for us as contemplatives.
Part of the reason forvirginity is to be able to enter
into contemplation, which isreally interesting.
It's about, it goes back to thefidelity to the word, right,
and so that's what the vow ofchastity is about fidelity to
(36:21):
the word.
It's not about just celibacyand genitality, him in that
faithful, priestly, ministerial,prophetic stance.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Yeah, it's really interesting because it kind of
makes me think of how manypeople a little tangent here,
but I think this is reallysomething worth considering is a
lot of people basically, likefornication is rampant around
the world.
Right, it's part of our humanbrokenness, and so you have
(37:17):
people who are not married, whoengage in sexual behaviors and
what that does, and they mayeven have the intention of being
married someday.
Right, oh, I love you, I loveyou, like, let's get married,
whatever.
But it obscures a lot of things.
You get lost in this behavior,in this behavior, and if you
(37:49):
weren't doing X, y or Z, youmight have a more clear frame of
mind to be able to go oh, thisis not really that good of a
relationship, or we're not goingin the right direction, like in
holiness for one another kindof thing, right, because we're
just distracted, right, and sojust thinking not impure, as in
like you were saying, it's moreabout that fidelity and in that
fidelity is a certain kind ofpurity.
(38:09):
Where there's less clutter, Ican focus better, right, no,
it's interesting.
Okay, it's interesting Okayokay, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Okay, so then we get to article 65, which is again
examines the embodiment of theantitype in the gathering of the
members of the church in us.
Okay, so, number 65.
But while in the most holyvirgin, the Church has already
reached that perfection wherebyshe is without spot or wrinkle.
(38:44):
Okay, we need to come back tothat.
The followers of Christ stillstrive to increase in holiness
by conquering sin.
Okay, so let me go back to thefirst sentence.
Let me go back to the firstsentence.
While in the Most Holy Virgin,the Church has already reached
(39:05):
that perfection.
Okay, the Church claims that we, the Council Fathers, continue
to preach this, and this goesback a long ways that the Church
(39:25):
is indefectibly holy.
Why?
Because it is founded uponJesus Christ, who is
indefectibly holy, right In Maryas the first of the redeemed
right, the first creature rightthat is enjoying this, and Mary
as the icon or as the propheticsign or symbol of the redeemed,
(39:47):
that there is already thisperfection that Mary is enjoying
as a member of the church andthereby we share in that to some
degree, but Mary already issharing this.
So this goes back to the wholetension of the already and the
not yet.
Like already, christ hasalready conquered, yes, but it's
(40:09):
not been definitively revealedyet, right until the Lord comes
in glory, right?
So this is part of that wholetheological idea, right?
So I just wanted to get thatclear.
And so continue on with number65.
And so they, the church, turntheir eyes to Mary, who shines
(40:32):
forth to the whole community ofthe elect us as the model of
virtues we were just talkingabout virtues Piously meditating
on her and contemplating her inthe light of the Word, made man
the Church, us with reverence,enters more intimately into the
great mystery of the Incarnationand becomes more and more like
(40:53):
her spouse, right?
So more and more to what we'recalled to be, to be that
virginal fidelity, commitment tothe Word.
For Mary who, since her entryinto salvation history, unites
in herself and re-echoes thegreatest teachings of the faith,
(41:15):
as she is proclaimed andvenerated, calls the faithful us
to her son and his sacrificeand to the love of the Father,
seeking after the glory ofChrist.
The church becomes more likeher exalted type, mary, as this
type, and continually progressesin faith, hope and charity,
(41:41):
seeking and doing the will ofGod in all things.
That's us, right.
We want to be more like Mary,that perfect response to God's
word.
Hence the Church, us in herapostolic work, also justly
looks to her.
Mary, who conceived of the HolySpirit, brought forth Christ,
who was born of the Virgin, thatthrough the Church, he Christ
(42:05):
may be born and may increase inthe hearts of the faithful.
Also, the Virgin in her ownlife lived an example of that
maternal love by which itbehooves that all should be
animated who cooperate in theapostolic mission of the church
for the regeneration of man.
So again, going back to thiswhole idea of fidelity,
(42:27):
contemplation, virginity, right,so as we are called to meditate
, reflect and pray with the Word, whether it's the written Word
or if it's the living Word whichthe written word is based upon
that within ourselves, then webring forth, we give birth to
(42:47):
Christ in us, conversion,whatever you want to call it
right, giving ourselves to theLord.
Then that we ourselves thenbecome more like Mary in
bringing forth Christ into theworld in ourselves, just as Mary
brought Christ into the worldin human flesh.
(43:07):
Right.
So, that's kind of sort of thoseimages and icons and signs and
symbols of what's going on there.
That's what we're called to beas the embodiment of that
antitype.
Okay, shall we go on.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Let's do it, let's finish.
Do you have time?
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Probably another 15 minutes maybe.
Let's see.
Let's see what we can do, okay.
Roman numeral four of chaptereight the cult of the blessed
virgin in the church.
Now, when we say cult, yeah, wedon't mean brainwashed zombies
(44:02):
right.
By cult we mean veneration,right.
It goes from the Latin wordcultus, which is about the
veneration right, so it's reallya better way to say this would
be the veneration of the BlessedVirgin in the church.
So, number 66, there's aspecial veneration respect given
(44:25):
to Mary within the church andit's based upon her exaltation
by God's election and grace toparticipate in Jesus Christ's
role as Redeemer.
So why do we venerate Mary?
We venerate Mary because Godchose her.
And if God chose her, thenthere must be something about
(44:45):
Mary that I need to look at andexamine and ask myself about.
Because God has chosen Mary tobe the mother of his son, to
give him flesh, to come into theworld to redeem us, right?
So it's really about veneratingGod's election of this vehicle,
(45:11):
right?
That's where this is based.
So, number 66.
Placed by the grace of God asGod's mother, meaning Jesus
Christ next to her son, andexalted above all angels and men
, mary intervened in themysteries of Christ and is
(45:31):
justly honored by a special cultveneration in the church.
Clearly, from earliest times,the Blessed Virgin is honored
under the title of Mother of God, under whose protection the
faithful took refuge in alltheir dangers and necessities.
Hence, after the Synod ofEphesus, the cult of the people
(45:55):
of God toward Mary wonderfullyincreased in veneration and love
, in invocation and imitation.
According to her own propheticwords, all generations shall
call me blessed, because he thatis mighty has done great things
to me.
This cult, as it always existed, although it is altogether
singular, differs essentiallyfrom the cult of adoration which
(46:19):
is offered to the incarnateword, differs essentially from
the cult of adoration which isoffered to the incarnate Word as
well as to the Father and theHoly Spirit.
So they're trying to point outthe difference between worship,
which is the cult of adoration,worship and veneration.
(46:40):
So we venerate Mary, we veneratesaints, but we worship God.
The various forms of pietytoward the mother of God which
the church, within the limits ofsound and orthodox doctrine,
according to the conditions oftime and place and the nature
and ingenuity of the faithful,has approved, bring it about
that, while the mother ishonored, the son, through whom
all things have their being andin whom it has pleased the
(47:02):
father that all fullness shoulddwell, is rightly known, loved
and glorified, and that all hiscommands are observed.
In other words, the purpose ofveneration of Mary is to attract
people to a more Christian life, a more Christian life, seeing
(47:27):
in Mary the vehicle that isobedient, the vehicle that God
has chosen, and herparticipation in Christ's
ministry earthly ministry.
That should attract us also,then, to Christ's ministry
itself, in other words,imitating that ministry of
Christ himself in the virtuouslife that he exemplified for us
(47:52):
right.
So going back a little bit tothe whole idea of honoring Mary
under the title of Mother of God, honoring Mary under the title
of Mother of God.
The Council of Ephesus was notabout Mary, even though a lot of
Catholics think it is.
The Council of Ephesus was notabout Mary.
The Council of Ephesus wasabout who Christ was.
(48:13):
Was Jesus true God and true man?
And so the whole idea of theChristophokos and Theotokos
right.
Is Mary the Christ-bearer or isMary the God-bearer?
And so the whole argument waslike you shouldn't separate
Jesus from his Godhood becausehe is true God and true man.
(48:34):
So if Jesus is true God andtrue man, then you can say, in a
way, that Mary is the mother ofGod.
She's not the mother of God,the father of God, the Holy
Spirit, but she gave humanity tothe son, and so therefore, who
is true God, true man?
Therefore, we can say that Maryis mother of God.
(48:57):
So that's where that comes from.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Excuse me.
So then we get to number 67,and here's where the council
fathers encourage a truedevotion to the Blessed Virgin
and an avoidance of extremes.
Okay, true devotion, avoidanceof extremes.
Okay, number 67.
(49:27):
This most holy synoddeliberately teaches this
Catholic doctrine and at thesame time admonishes all the
sons and daughters of the churchthat the cult, especially the
liturgical cult, of the BlessedVirgin, be generously fostered
(49:47):
and the practices and exercisesof piety recommended by the
Magisterium, the Rosary right ofthe Church toward her in the
course of centuries, be made ofgreat moment and those decrees
which have been given in theearly days regarding the cult of
images of Christ, the BlessedVirgin and the saints be
religiously observed.
(50:08):
But it exhorts theologians andpreachers of the divine word to
abstain zealously both from allgross exaggerations as well as
from petty narrow-mindedness inconsidering the singular dignity
of the Mother of God.
Following the study of SacredScripture, the Holy Fathers, the
(50:35):
Doctors and Liturgy of theChurch, and under the guidance
of the Church's Magisterium, letthem rightly illustrate the
duties and privileges of theChurch and, under the guidance
of the Church's magisterium, letthem rightly illustrate the
duties and privileges of theBlessed Virgin, which always
look to Christ, the source ofall truth, sanctity and piety.
Let them assiduously keep awayfrom whatever, either by word or
(50:56):
deed, could lead separatedbrethren or any other into error
regarding the true doctrine ofthe church.
Let the faithful remember,moreover, that true devotion
consists neither in sterile ortransitory affection, nor in a
certain vain credulity, butproceeds from true faith by
(51:19):
which we are led to know theexcellence of the mother of God
and we are moved to filial lovetoward our mother and to the
imitation of her virtues.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Yeah, that's another one of those couple lines right
there towards the end.
It's like I guess none of ushave heard that before, you know
, because it's like won't, won't, we missed that one.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
And this is what I'm always preaching about,
especially as a Marian orderLike, okay, we have a devotion
to Our Lady of Mount Carmel, yes, but it's not about a devotion
to Our Lady of Mount Carmel.
A true devotion to Our Lady ofMount Carmel is to imitate the
virtues that that represents,and for Carmelites that would be
(52:04):
the virtue of prayer, right,contemplative prayer that's
under the title of Our Lady ofMount Carmel.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
So anyway, yes, yeah, I love it.
Keep away from whatever, eitherby word or deed, could lead
separated brethren or any otherinto error regarding the true
doctrine of the church.
It's like I'm going to make at-shirt that says that, because
it's like everybody needs tojust be reminded.
I think yes, very gently, yes.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, Okay, almost there.
Roman numeral five Mary, thesign of created hope and solace
to the wandering people of God.
So this is then number 68 and69, which is the last part.
(52:51):
So non-Catholic Christians takeoffense at this article for two
reasons it seems to confirm atriumphalism of which they
accuse the Church, and two, thatthey have replaced Christ as
the sure sign with Mary, that wereplaced Christ with Mary.
(53:12):
So that's why non-CatholicChristians take offense at these
two articles.
But again, if they don'tunderstand Catholic language,
catholic theology, the Catholicambience, it's easy to
misunderstand what people aretalking about.
So again, context.
So, like I said earlier, if youwant to understand the Second
Vatican Council documents, youneed to read them all.
(53:32):
They're supposed to be read inthe context of everything else.
So anyway, our response then tothese offenses of non-Catholic
Christians is that ourcontemplation of Mary assumed
into heaven reminds us that ourearthly existence is provisional
(53:53):
and it's not triumphant of theCatholic Church in the world.
It is about reminding ourselvesthat Christ is victorious and
that Mary is the sign of thisvictory of Christ for humanity.
Two Mary is the sure sign of theresult of answering the bridal
(54:17):
call that is ours as Christ'sbride so 68 says.
The bridal call that is ours asChrist's bride so 68 says, in
the interim between now and thesecond, coming as the mother of
Jesus, glorified in body andsoul in heaven, is the image and
beginning of the church as itis to be perfected in the world
(54:44):
to come.
So too does she shine forth onearth until the day.
That is part of that sign,right, she is a prophetic sign.
(55:08):
It is not as the triumph of thechurch, it's the triumph of
Christ.
That is what we're pointing to,right.
It's in the last number, thelast, article 69.
The pain of the reality of theseparated brethren and a prayer
for unity.
(55:30):
It gives great joy and comfortto this holy and general synod
that even among the separatedbrethren there are some who give
due honor to the mother of ourLord and Savior, especially
among the Orientals, meaning theEastern churches, who, with
devout mind and fervent impulse,give honor to the mother of God
(55:55):
, ever virgin.
The entire body of the faithfulpours forth instant
supplications to the Mother ofGod and Mother of Men.
That she, who aided thebeginnings of the Church by her
prayers in the Cynical, may now,exalted as she is.
Above all, the angels andsaints intercede before her Son
(56:17):
in the fellowship of all thesaints, until all families of
people, whether they are honoredwith the title of Christian or
whether they still do not knowthe Savior, may be happily
gathered together in peace andharmony into one people of God,
for the glory of the most holyand undivided Trinity.
Each and all these items whichare set forth in this dogmatic
(56:40):
constitution have met with theapproval of the council fathers
and we, by the apostolic powergiven us by Christ, together
with the venerable fathers inthe Holy Spirit, approve, decree
and establish it, and commandthat what has thus been decided
in the council be promulgatedfor the glory of God Given in
(57:02):
Rome at St Peter's on November21st 1964.
Fini.
Speaker 1 (57:11):
The end man.
God is good.
Yes, all the time.
Yeah, I'm glad that we've takenthe time to do this.
(57:40):
Regardless of how much timeit's taken us to do this, I
wonder if maybe someday I'mgoing to do all of our
multi-parters like this, I'mgoing to do like a super cut and
just mush them all togetherinto one giant episode so people
don't have to go searching forthem and stuff like that.
But yeah, this is so good.
And I think you know, like wekeep saying there's a lot of or
we've said in the past, there'sa lot of I don't know, try not
(58:03):
to be too broad brushstroke-ybut a lot of haters of Vatican
II out there who probablyhaven't read the whole thing in
context.
No of course not.
Speaker 2 (58:12):
They just hear what other people tell them and they
don't go to the source.
Speaker 1 (58:16):
Yeah, but every time we sit down and talk about it,
just like this, it's beautifuland I think there's just so much
to sit and reflect on andthere's a lot you could probably
learn from these, looking atVatican II and going all the way
back to some early synod orcouncil and seeing how they are
related and things like that.
(58:37):
But, yeah, this has been sogood.
And, father, thank you forhumoring me in my request once
upon a time to say you know whatwe should talk about?
We should talk about chaptereight.
Yeah, okay, well, we've.
Uh, I know we're about time andyou've got a lot to do today,
(59:00):
yes, so again, thank you, andeverybody who's been so patient
with us and who have beenjoining us.
Thank you for joining.
Speaker 2 (59:07):
Thank you very much and please subscribe, download,
subscribe, share with others.
Speaker 1 (59:13):
pray for us pray for one another.
Yeah, and we've got a bunch ofstuff coming up, so everybody
look forward to seeing seeingyou all next time.
God bless, hasta later, bye.
I'm Ada Lee and you're listening to my Friend's
Friar.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Good morning John, Good morning Father.
It's been a long time, I know.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I keep laughing because it's I'm thinking it's
like trying to have aconversation.
I keep laughing because I'mthinking it's like trying to
have a conversation.
It's almost like when peoplewould have conversations via
written letter, handwrittenletter, back and forth.
That's what this is like we'repicking up something that we
last talked about like two,three months ago, kind of thing.
(00:41):
At this point, yeah, LikeFebruary, was it?
February yeah, it wasValentine's Day is when we
released the last one, so it wasjust before Valentine's Day
when we talked Goodness Well,welcome to the podcast and
thanks for joining me and myfriend, the friar, father
Stephen Sanchez, discalcedCarmelite Priesthood.
(01:03):
We don't know where we areanymore.
We actually do.
It's like 30 minutes now tryingto figure out where we were in
this conversation, so we'repretty sure we know where we're
picking back up.
Yes, yeah, and thank you foryour prayers and everybody who's
(01:23):
listening.
Thank you all for the prayersfor mom and everything, and I
think her beautiful or herbeautiful, her she's beautiful.
Her funeral it was beautiful.
It was really neat to.
It was the mass was at theparish where I grew up, and St
(01:46):
Paul down in Corpus Christi,texas, and or St Paul the
apostle, and it's the sameparish where my dad's funeral
mass was, and so it's.
It was just a really beautifulmoment to get to kind of
goodness, I guess 20 years or soafter since my dad passed away
for for my mom and so, uh, yeah,24 years, and so just to kind
(02:08):
of close that loop, and you knowshe's in the uh, arms of Jesus
and she gets to pray.
Have hope, get to that.
She's with dad again and, um,all everything is good and
glorious up in heaven and it'sjust.
It was a beautiful experience.
So I think the she opened ourlast two episodes because that
(02:31):
was something she really wantedto do.
She wanted to get better so shecould be on the podcast.
So I think I'm going to.
I think I said I was going tolet her open all these for Mary,
so I'll probably let her do theopening for this one too.
It's kind of like a hurrah.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
And now she has a better understanding of Mary
than any of us.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, she's probably going up there just shaking her
head like, oh you boys, You'reclose, but All right.
The Blessed Virgin and theChurch.
This is point five of LumenGentium, chapter eight.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
We had begun speaking on the role of the Blessed
Virgin Mary in the economy ofsalvation, and the document
gives us five points.
And the first point was on theOld Testament prophecies.
The second point was on the NewTestament and Mary's obedience.
Then the third point was Mary'sreceptive faith.
(03:33):
And the fourth point was Mary'sconnection to Christ brings her
to be intimately connected withthe church.
And then the fifth point thechurch sees herself in Mary's
assumption, that assumptionbeing the effect of redemption.
So we begin then Roman numeralthree in Lumen Gentium, chapter
(03:55):
eight, the Blessed Virgin andthe church.
So number 60 of Lumen Gentium,number 60 of Lumen Gentium.
I'm watching John walk on theceiling here, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Sorry, Rosie wanted out of the room because she was
sleeping in her little dog bed,so I go let her out.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Okay.
So number 60.
There is but one mediator, aswe know from the words of the
Apostle, for there is one Godand one mediator of God in men,
the man, Christ Jesus, who gavehimself as redemption for all.
(04:38):
The maternal duty of Marytoward men in no wise obscures
or diminishes this uniquemediation of Christ, but rather
shows his power.
I just want to pause there, andthat's because a lot of times
we have people who againseparated brethren, who speak
(05:04):
about there's only one Redeemer,one Savior, yes, and we're like
, yes, there is, we're 1,000% inagreement with that right.
So Mary's role is within thatmediatorship of Christ, right?
So anyway, we'll talk aboutthat in a minute.
(05:28):
Continuing on number 60, for allthe salvific influence of the
Blessed Virgin on men originatesnot from some inner necessity
but from a divine pleasure.
This means that Christ haschosen Mary to be part of this
(05:49):
economy, right?
Not he is the only mediator,but somehow it is Christ's
pleasure that he incorporatesmembers of the church, Mary
being a member of the church inthat same design plan of
redemption.
So we'll talk about that alittle bit further on.
It flows forth from thesuperabundance of the merits of
(06:16):
Christ, rests on his mediation,depends entirely on it and draws
all its power from it, dependsentirely on it and draws all its
power from it.
In no way does it impede, butrather does it foster the
immediate union of the faithfulwith Christ.
Okay here, so because somehow inGod's plan, in the way, Christ
(06:38):
is the head and Christ is thesource.
He is the only truth, he is theonly mediator, he is the only
Savior and in honoring hismother that gave him his sacred
humanity, that brings him intohuman history and is part of
this whole divine plan ofredemption, then Mary, as part
(07:05):
of the church, as a member ofthe church, as a believer, as
the first redeemed, then makingher part of this is a way in
which the faithful, us, thechurch, there's an immediate
union of the faithful withChrist.
So in Mary's close work withChrist, that is a sign and a
(07:35):
symbol of what all of us aschurch should be and looks
forward to in that union withChrist.
It's almost like a propheticsign of where we are going as
church, of what we're meant tobe as church we're meant to be.
(07:55):
These co-operators, these, asPaul would say, the ambassadors
of this kingdom, ambassadors ofChrist, were meant to work very
closely together and in Mary, wehave already in reality not our
(08:16):
reality, but in the futurereality of the church.
As we work towards thatcelestial truth, that celestial
truth, the faithful are alreadyworking in close union,
proximity with Christ in thisdesign of redemption.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, and I love talking about Mary with you
because, as a Carmelite, I'mtalking about Mary with you,
because, as a Carmelite, youhave a little extra love for
Mary, kind of thing.
Yeah, but your Mariology iswell-formed as a Carmelite as
well.
Right, because everything isbased on Jesus and not, as I
(09:03):
would probably wager, a lot ofCatholics around the world.
It's not well formed in us, andso there's a tendency towards I
don't want to say abuse, butwe're going about it the wrong
way, kind of thing.
Yeah, this is a lack ofcatechesis.
Yeah, this is a lack ofcatechesis.
Yeah, and so to me I love thisbecause all of it makes sense.
(09:33):
If it gives God joy that youand I sit around and talk about
godly things, right, and eitherwe ourselves and or someone else
benefits from those kinds ofconversations.
If that gives him joy, like howmuch more joy would it give?
And that as, as you said, likethe first saved kind of thing,
(10:11):
how he chose her and saved her,how much more, I guess, joy
would her perfect obedience givehim?
Well, and I don't know, maybe mybroken obedience gives him just
as much joy, you know, becausehe's like oh, he's trying, you
know.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Bless his heart.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, yeah, I do think it's.
I think catechesis on Mary issomething that we're all, when I
say we, like the laity of theworld, are probably missing a
lot of.
So I don't know, I like it.
This all makes sense, to me atleast.
(10:53):
Probably because I talked toyou, but carry on, good sir,
okay.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So then that was number 60.
Now we go to 61, number 61 ofLumen Gentium, chapter 8,.
Predestined from eternity bythat decree of divine providence
which determined theincarnation of the Word to be
the Mother of God, the BlessedVirgin was on this earth the
Virgin Mother of the Redeemerand above all others and, in a
(11:23):
singular way, the generousassociate and humble handmaid of
the Lord.
She conceived, brought forthand nourished Christ.
She presented him to the Fatherin the temple and was united
with him by compassion as hedied on the cross.
In this singular way, shecooperated by her obedience,
(11:46):
faith, hope and burning charityin the work of the Savior, in
giving back supernatural life tosouls.
Wherefore she is our mother inthe order of grace.
Okay, so, okay.
So there's a lot of realities,superimposed layers and
(12:12):
realities that we have to beaware of and remind ourselves of
.
So Mary is the first of theredeemed.
Mary is our sister becauseshe's a creature right, but here
the council father says but youhave to remember that because
she gave our humanity to theWord and by giving birth to the
(12:37):
Word, true God and true man,then that in the order of grace,
then she is also our motherbecause she is the mother of
Christ, who is the source of allgrace, the source of all
redemption.
So it's important that we notseparate Mary from Christ and
(12:57):
his unique and only mediatorshipunique and only mediatorship,
right.
And sometimes because of a lackof catechesis, because people
sometimes speak out of emotioninstead of out of understanding,
(13:17):
sometimes that's where we canget caught up and we give our
separated brethren conniptions.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
And rightly so.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
And rightly so Because sometimes we within
Catholic, within the Catholicworld, there is Catholic
language and we understand thelanguage.
But when you speak to somebodyoutside of the Catholic world
using Catholic language, youconfuse them because they don't
understand what it is thatyou're referring to or what your
reference points are Right.
(13:50):
So that's why it's importantthat we always make that
distinction.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah, but it's like.
It's like translating languageson the fly too, right.
So it's because you have allthis theological language like
you're saying.
So you're like, how do I saythis in layman's terms?
And then, especially if it'ssomething you're excited, it's
so easy to misspeak.
That's really.
It is one of the scariestthings about doing a podcast too
is like if you were going tosit down and write a book, you
(14:15):
could take as long as you needto make sure that what you're
saying is correct, but whenyou're just chatting with
someone like you mess up all thetime.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Oh yeah, you know, and we've done it, that's
recorded.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And then if it's recorded, thensomebody's like oh, look what
the Catholics say.
You know, and it's like sorry,man, I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yeah, oops, we're just talking about the faith.
So let me go on to number 62.
So let me go on to number 62.
Yep, and this is 60, 61, 62.
So that's the sort of outliningMary's role in the church and
(15:09):
how we're trying to get to theplace where the assumption we
speak about the assumptionMary's body and soul assumed
into heaven, and how that is theeffect of redemption and how
that, basically, is a promise ofour own resurrected body.
Right, so that's what we'regoing to get to.
So then, number 62 of chapter 8.
The maternity of Mary, in theorder of grace, began with the
consent which she gave in faithat the Annunciation and which
(15:33):
she sustained without waveringbeneath the cross, and lasts
until the eternal fulfillment ofall the elect.
So I kind of kind of pausethere, okay, so one of the
things, the um, we have to againmultiple realities, many things
(15:59):
are going on at once.
So, Mary, still now, and untilall the elect are gathered at
the last day, right thefulfillment.
She continues then to cooperatewith Christ in his work of
(16:20):
redemption in the world, right,and up until the moment that all
of the elect are gathered,right.
So this is her.
And so why is this true?
It makes sense because ifsomeone is redeemed, and is
truly redeemed using a Calvinand Hobbes word, transmogrified,
(16:42):
truly transmogrified in Christ,then your desire is not about
yourself.
Your desire becomesother-centered, as Christ was
other-centered, and so Mary'sother-centeredness is about our
redemption.
She's concerned for ourredemption, those of us that are
still on the journey right,yeah.
(17:05):
And so—.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
And wouldn't this be true for you and I?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
when we pass away.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yes, right, we would—in our beatific vision, we
would be not concerned aboutourselves.
We'd be praying for everyoneelse, everybody else.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
That's it, because we want everyone—the will of the
Father is that all be saved, andso that is the will that drives
this continual missionary kindof desire.
So continuing on in number 62.
Taken up to heaven, she did notlay aside this salvific duty
(17:39):
but, by her constantintercession, continued to bring
us the gifts of eternalsalvation.
By her maternal charity, shecares for the brethren of her
son who still journey on earth,surrounded by dangers and
cultics, until they are led intothe happiness of their true
home.
(17:59):
Therefore, the Blessed Virginis invoked by the Church under
the titles of Advocate,auxiliatrix, adjuxtrix and
Mediatrix.
This, however, is to be sounderstood that it neither takes
away from nor adds anything tothe dignity and efficaciousness
(18:21):
of Christ, the one mediator,mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, okay,
okay.
So when you ask somebody topray for you, right?
You're not asking them to takethe place of Jesus.
You're not asking them to takethe place of Jesus, you're
(18:46):
asking them to mediate as well.
That with all the otherbelievers, you ask God's mercy
or God's mediation in whateversituation we find ourselves.
When you ask for help, again tocome before God and plead
before the throne, so anadvocate as well, right.
(19:07):
So all those things we can sayof the believers on our journey,
right, but that does not in anyway take away the
efficaciousness and the onlymediatorship of Jesus Christ,
right.
So the same thing with Mary.
(19:27):
Yeah, okay, continuing on tonumber 62.
I think this is important, forno creature could ever be
counted as equal with theincarnate word and redeemer.
That is a very importantstatement that I wish Catholics
would remember.
(19:48):
Just as the priesthood ofChrist is shared in various ways
by the ministers and by thefaithful, and as the one
goodness of God is reallycommunicated in different ways
to his creatures, so also theunique mediation of the Redeemer
(20:08):
does not exclude, but rathergives rise to a manifold
cooperation which is but asharing in this one source.
The Church does not hesitate toprofess this subordinate role
of Mary.
It knows it through unfailingexperience of it and commends it
to the hearts of the faithfulso that, encouraged by this
(20:32):
maternal help, they may the moreintimately adhere to the
mediator and redeemer.
Yeah, those last two sentencesare probably sentences a lot of
(20:54):
non-Catholic Christians havenever heard spoken by the
Catholic Church.
This is assumed that you knowthis.
It's assumed that you're awareof this.
It's assumed that you've beencatechized in this.
And what happens is when itgets translated into popular
piety.
The popular piety then can bemisleading to those who are not
(21:20):
of the culture within theCatholic culture, and even
within the Catholic culturethey're not educated.
Then again there's amisunderstanding of exactly what
is what's going on right.
For example, we have the manyimages of Mary.
Right you have Our Lady ofGuadalupe, our Lady of Lourdes,
our Lady of Fatima.
We have Our Lady of PromptSucker.
We have Our Lady of PerpetualHelp.
(21:42):
Okay, like, isn't it all thesame person?
Yes, it is the same person, butthese are different facets or
different ways of experiencingMary's sisterly maternity right.
And also you can say it is alsoa reflection of Christ's care
(22:08):
for us, or even God, theFather's care for us through
this creature right.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, yeah, and even like it makes me think with
ourselves too.
We're all multifaceted, right.
I'm a son, I'm a husband, I'm abrother, I'm a father, right?
So there's all these differentaspects, and I can care for you
in a brotherly way.
I can care for you in afatherly way, right?
And so why would it be anydifferent again with Mary, right
(22:36):
?
If every one of theseencounters with her, like every
one of these encounters with her, should point to, like you're
saying, an aspect of thefather's love that we get to
just experience through thatencounter with her?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Right, and it's the same thing with you.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, but I don't know why it is that people get
emotional when we talk aboutstuff like that.
When we talk about the role ofMary, right, whether it's a
separated brethren or Catholicsor even those that are closer to
Catholic tradition, sometimesit becomes more of an emotional
reaction instead of reallyactually sitting down and
thinking about it, thinking itout theologically, right?
(23:22):
So what is it that we're saying, right?
So yeah, and even you know,I've heard many priests say
stuff like oh my God, pleasedon't.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I remember the story about was it some retreat or
something you gave and you saidthat the, the prayer should be
made in such a way, and then thepriest came in and or maybe
even a bishop or something camein and said it like the wrong
way.
Right after yes, yeah, yes, yesuh oh, womp, womp exactly like,
(23:57):
okay, okay so anyway, yeah, butwords, words are hard, right,
and again, wait, that's.
We have to be charitable withone another to oh yeah, but I
think again it goes back.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
try to understand.
It goes back to the whole ideaof many times there's an
emotional element to this.
All right, and of course, yeah,especially for us.
You're like you know, you'regonna start dissing my mom, like
, of course I'm going to bow upon you, like what, say that
again, yeah, and so that's whathappens, right, and so it's like
(24:34):
okay, but you don't have aproper understanding and
sometimes, again, as I said,sometimes it's our own fault for
not catechizing our own peopleand helping them to understand
exactly the role of Mary in thechurch.
But, anyway, the council fathersare trying really hard here.
So that's why I wanted to getto, that's why we started this,
(24:58):
to talk about Mary, aboutchapter 8.
But then we decided to do moreto be able to understand the
context to be able to understandchapter eight of lumigensium
yeah, and it's like, um, haveyou ever seen shrek?
Uh, the movie, the first onewith like a thousand, yeah, yeah
, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
So the only thing I can really remember about it is
when the donkey is like, orshrek is saying there's layers
like an onion and you peel backthe layers and there's more and
more layers, right, and thedonkeys, what does he say?
He's like not everybody likesonions, or whatever.
How about parfaits?
So this is our, our marionparfait.
There you go is what all thisis about okay, so continuing on,
(25:40):
so, okay.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
So the first three articles of this section number
60, 61, 62, point out thesingular uniqueness of Christ as
the only mediator Again, onlymediator but also helps us to
see Mary's relationship toChrist's unique role as mediator
(26:04):
and how this role couldproperly be understood as
mediatrix, again, right, howMary uniquely enjoys a
particular relationship with therest of the faithful and with
Christ, the head.
Because of her uniqueness, sheis creature, but also she is the
(26:29):
one through whom the Word tookon our humanity.
And because of her ImmaculateConception, because she was
redeemed first, and because ofher Immaculate Conception, then,
her ability to respond fully toGod is unique to creation.
(26:53):
Okay, so that's important tounderstand.
Okay, so continuing on then, interms of Mary as Mediatrix.
The grace that a redeemedperson receives from Christ
becomes in him, in turn, asource of salvation for his
fellows.
(27:14):
Now, this is eminently andarchetypically true of Mary, so
that she, who originallyreceived into herself the source
of all life, is thereby aspiritual mother to all other
members of the church.
Okay, that's a quote from therole of the Blessed Virgin
(27:35):
Semmelroth the author.
Okay, so.
So there's two elements ofMary's mediation.
One, the historical, objective,existential connection with
Christ and his work ofredemption, and two, mary from
her place, outside of space andtime now, since her assumption
(28:04):
continues with a mother's loveto care for and intercede for
those on the road to redemption.
Okay, and going back to thisidea of mediatrix, this is
applicable to Mary in a veryunique way and we could also, we
could say in a concentrated way, just as it could be said of
you and I you are a mediatorbecause you are part of the
church and in your life and inyour acts of virtue and in your
(28:28):
striving for holiness, it is forthe church and so, in a way,
you are cooperating withChrist's singular mediatorship.
So you, in a way, are aco-mediator, right.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah, and like then it's saying is it 2 Peter?
We're a priestly people.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Right, exactly, and so this is something that needs
to be understood to the role ofMary, her priestly function.
Right, because this is part ofwho Christ is.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
And so again.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Hopefully this is laying some sort of
understanding.
We're probably nerding out here.
People are falling asleep.
Get to the point, dude.
This is the point.
So now we get to articles 63,64, and 65.
We're almost well I shouldn'tsay we're almost done.
(29:23):
We've got a ways to go yet we'llget there, though we'll get
there so in Numbers 63 to 65,mary is presented as the
archetype of the church, orthink of it as a prophetic image
, or think of it as an iconright of the church and as an
(29:48):
anti-type of the first Eve.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
So we have.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Eve.
Then you have the type right,which is okay.
You have the mother of humanityright, and so this is where a
lot of the early church fathersstarted comparing Mary and Eve.
So Mary is the new Eve.
Eve failed in her disobedience,Mary conquers through her
obedience.
And there's a lot of thesecommentators.
(30:13):
The early church fathers beganlooking at this and it's called
typology, but that's for anotherpodcast.
Okay, so the church is born ofthe side of the crucified Savior
, as Eve was taken from the sideof Adam.
That's one of the typologies.
The type is that Jesus on thecross is like the Adam, the new
(30:39):
Adam, and the new Adam sleeps indeath and in the sleep of death
.
When the soldier pierces theside of Jesus, the church comes
forth the flowing of the bloodand the water, which is the
signs and symbols of theEucharist and baptism.
So blood and water flows out.
(31:01):
So blood and water flows out.
So this is the church beingborn from the side of the Adam,
the new Adam that is asleep onthe cross of the church.
(31:24):
She represents the church.
So we can say that Mary, then,is also born from the side of
Jesus, even though she gavebirth to Jesus, right?
That's where all thesedifferent layers start coming
together.
Yeah, parfait, yeah.
So we'll get to this in aminute.
So Article 63, which we'll readin just a second, presents Mary
(31:46):
as the archetype, then Number64 presents the Church as an
antitype of Eve, and thenArticle 65 examines the
embodiment of the antitype inthe gathering of the members of
the Church, us.
So now 63.
By reason of the gift and roleof divine maternity, by which
(32:14):
she is united with her son, theRedeemer, and with his singular
graces and functions, theBlessed Virgin is also
intimately united with theChurch.
As St Ambrose taught, theMother of God is a type of the
Church in the order of faith,charity and perfect union with
Christ.
For in the mystery of theChurch, which is itself rightly
(32:37):
called Mother and Virgin, theBlessed Virgin stands out in
eminent and singular fashion asexemplar both of virgin and
mother.
Okay, so church is calledvirgin and mother, why?
Because, as people are baptized, the church is mothering these
(32:59):
people, right?
And she's called virgin becauseit is a virgin birth in the
spiritual realm, right?
So when someone is baptized atthe baptismal font, the church
is giving birth to a new member,and she is a virgin in giving
forth this spiritual child,right?
So that's where some of this isgoing by her belief and
(33:23):
obedience.
Not knowing man butovershadowed by the Holy Spirit
as the new eve, she broughtforth on earth the very Son of
the Father, showing an undefiledfaith not in the word of the
ancient serpent but in that ofGod's messenger.
The Son whom she brought forthis he whom God placed as the
(33:45):
firstborn among many brethren,namely the faithful, in whose
birth and education shecooperates with a maternal love.
Okay, so now 64 as the antitypeof Eve.
Excuse me allergies, excuse me,excuse me Allergies.
The church, indeed,contemplating her hidden
(34:20):
sanctity, imitating her charityand faithfully fulfilling the
Father's will, by receiving theword of God in faith, becomes
herself a mother.
The Church, by her preaching,she brings forth to a new and
immortal life the sons who areborn to her in baptism,
conceived by the Holy Spirit andborn of God.
She herself is a virgin whokeeps the faith given to her by
her spouse, whole and entire.
Imitating the mother of herLord and by the power of the
(34:44):
Holy Spirit, she keeps, withvirginal purity and entire faith
, a firm hope and a sincerecharity.
Now, one of the layers ofunderstanding of faith virginity
, excuse me.
And in the Western world wetend to connect virginity to
(35:05):
genitality right and to whethersomeone's had sexual intercourse
or not.
One of the layers of virginityis not about sexual purity, it
is about fidelity, thefaithfulness right.
It is about fidelity, thefaithfulness right.
So here the church is sayingher virginal, or her commitment
(35:29):
in faith, her fidelity to herLord is what makes her virginal.
And it is through this virginalcommitment, fidelity to the
Lord, it is in this fidelity tothe Lord that she gives birth to
(35:50):
her children conceived by theHoly Spirit.
Okay, does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Yeah, that's interesting.
I've never heard or thought ofit like that.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Okay, but like that?
Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Okay, and also for us as contemplatives.
Part of the reason forvirginity is to be able to enter
into contemplation, which isreally interesting.
It's about, it goes back to thefidelity to the word, right,
and so that's what the vow ofchastity is about fidelity to
(36:21):
the word.
It's not about just celibacyand genitality, him in that
faithful, priestly, ministerial,prophetic stance.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Yeah, it's really interesting because it kind of
makes me think of how manypeople a little tangent here,
but I think this is reallysomething worth considering is a
lot of people basically, likefornication is rampant around
the world.
Right, it's part of our humanbrokenness, and so you have
(37:17):
people who are not married, whoengage in sexual behaviors and
what that does, and they mayeven have the intention of being
married someday.
Right, oh, I love you, I loveyou, like, let's get married,
whatever.
But it obscures a lot of things.
You get lost in this behavior,in this behavior, and if you
(37:49):
weren't doing X, y or Z, youmight have a more clear frame of
mind to be able to go oh, thisis not really that good of a
relationship, or we're not goingin the right direction, like in
holiness for one another kindof thing, right, because we're
just distracted, right, and sojust thinking not impure, as in
like you were saying, it's moreabout that fidelity and in that
fidelity is a certain kind ofpurity.
(38:09):
Where there's less clutter, Ican focus better, right, no,
it's interesting.
Okay, it's interesting Okayokay, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Okay, so then we get to article 65, which is again
examines the embodiment of theantitype in the gathering of the
members of the church in us.
Okay, so, number 65.
But while in the most holyvirgin, the Church has already
reached that perfection wherebyshe is without spot or wrinkle.
(38:44):
Okay, we need to come back tothat.
The followers of Christ stillstrive to increase in holiness
by conquering sin.
Okay, so let me go back to thefirst sentence.
Let me go back to the firstsentence.
While in the Most Holy Virgin,the Church has already reached
(39:05):
that perfection.
Okay, the Church claims that we, the Council Fathers, continue
to preach this, and this goesback a long ways that the Church
(39:25):
is indefectibly holy.
Why?
Because it is founded uponJesus Christ, who is
indefectibly holy, right In Maryas the first of the redeemed
right, the first creature rightthat is enjoying this, and Mary
as the icon or as the propheticsign or symbol of the redeemed,
(39:47):
that there is already thisperfection that Mary is enjoying
as a member of the church andthereby we share in that to some
degree, but Mary already issharing this.
So this goes back to the wholetension of the already and the
not yet.
Like already, christ hasalready conquered, yes, but it's
(40:09):
not been definitively revealedyet, right until the Lord comes
in glory, right?
So this is part of that wholetheological idea, right?
So I just wanted to get thatclear.
And so continue on with number65.
And so they, the church, turntheir eyes to Mary, who shines
(40:32):
forth to the whole community ofthe elect us as the model of
virtues we were just talkingabout virtues Piously meditating
on her and contemplating her inthe light of the Word, made man
the Church, us with reverence,enters more intimately into the
great mystery of the Incarnationand becomes more and more like
(40:53):
her spouse, right?
So more and more to what we'recalled to be, to be that
virginal fidelity, commitment tothe Word.
For Mary who, since her entryinto salvation history, unites
in herself and re-echoes thegreatest teachings of the faith,
(41:15):
as she is proclaimed andvenerated, calls the faithful us
to her son and his sacrificeand to the love of the Father,
seeking after the glory ofChrist.
The church becomes more likeher exalted type, mary, as this
type, and continually progressesin faith, hope and charity,
(41:41):
seeking and doing the will ofGod in all things.
That's us, right.
We want to be more like Mary,that perfect response to God's
word.
Hence the Church, us in herapostolic work, also justly
looks to her.
Mary, who conceived of the HolySpirit, brought forth Christ,
who was born of the Virgin, thatthrough the Church, he Christ
(42:05):
may be born and may increase inthe hearts of the faithful.
Also, the Virgin in her ownlife lived an example of that
maternal love by which itbehooves that all should be
animated who cooperate in theapostolic mission of the church
for the regeneration of man.
So again, going back to thiswhole idea of fidelity,
(42:27):
contemplation, virginity, right,so as we are called to meditate
, reflect and pray with the Word, whether it's the written Word
or if it's the living Word whichthe written word is based upon
that within ourselves, then webring forth, we give birth to
(42:47):
Christ in us, conversion,whatever you want to call it
right, giving ourselves to theLord.
Then that we ourselves thenbecome more like Mary in
bringing forth Christ into theworld in ourselves, just as Mary
brought Christ into the worldin human flesh.
(43:07):
Right.
So, that's kind of sort of thoseimages and icons and signs and
symbols of what's going on there.
That's what we're called to beas the embodiment of that
antitype.
Okay, shall we go on.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Let's do it, let's finish.
Do you have time?
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Probably another 15 minutes maybe.
Let's see.
Let's see what we can do, okay.
Roman numeral four of chaptereight the cult of the blessed
virgin in the church.
Now, when we say cult, yeah, wedon't mean brainwashed zombies
(44:02):
right.
By cult we mean veneration,right.
It goes from the Latin wordcultus, which is about the
veneration right, so it's reallya better way to say this would
be the veneration of the BlessedVirgin in the church.
So, number 66, there's aspecial veneration respect given
(44:25):
to Mary within the church andit's based upon her exaltation
by God's election and grace toparticipate in Jesus Christ's
role as Redeemer.
So why do we venerate Mary?
We venerate Mary because Godchose her.
And if God chose her, thenthere must be something about
(44:45):
Mary that I need to look at andexamine and ask myself about.
Because God has chosen Mary tobe the mother of his son, to
give him flesh, to come into theworld to redeem us, right?
So it's really about veneratingGod's election of this vehicle,
(45:11):
right?
That's where this is based.
So, number 66.
Placed by the grace of God asGod's mother, meaning Jesus
Christ next to her son, andexalted above all angels and men
, mary intervened in themysteries of Christ and is
(45:31):
justly honored by a special cultveneration in the church.
Clearly, from earliest times,the Blessed Virgin is honored
under the title of Mother of God, under whose protection the
faithful took refuge in alltheir dangers and necessities.
Hence, after the Synod ofEphesus, the cult of the people
(45:55):
of God toward Mary wonderfullyincreased in veneration and love
, in invocation and imitation.
According to her own propheticwords, all generations shall
call me blessed, because he thatis mighty has done great things
to me.
This cult, as it always existed, although it is altogether
singular, differs essentiallyfrom the cult of adoration which
(46:19):
is offered to the incarnateword, differs essentially from
the cult of adoration which isoffered to the incarnate Word as
well as to the Father and theHoly Spirit.
So they're trying to point outthe difference between worship,
which is the cult of adoration,worship and veneration.
(46:40):
So we venerate Mary, we veneratesaints, but we worship God.
The various forms of pietytoward the mother of God which
the church, within the limits ofsound and orthodox doctrine,
according to the conditions oftime and place and the nature
and ingenuity of the faithful,has approved, bring it about
that, while the mother ishonored, the son, through whom
all things have their being andin whom it has pleased the
(47:02):
father that all fullness shoulddwell, is rightly known, loved
and glorified, and that all hiscommands are observed.
In other words, the purpose ofveneration of Mary is to attract
people to a more Christian life, a more Christian life, seeing
(47:27):
in Mary the vehicle that isobedient, the vehicle that God
has chosen, and herparticipation in Christ's
ministry earthly ministry.
That should attract us also,then, to Christ's ministry
itself, in other words,imitating that ministry of
Christ himself in the virtuouslife that he exemplified for us
(47:52):
right.
So going back a little bit tothe whole idea of honoring Mary
under the title of Mother of God, honoring Mary under the title
of Mother of God.
The Council of Ephesus was notabout Mary, even though a lot of
Catholics think it is.
The Council of Ephesus was notabout Mary.
The Council of Ephesus wasabout who Christ was.
(48:13):
Was Jesus true God and true man?
And so the whole idea of theChristophokos and Theotokos
right.
Is Mary the Christ-bearer or isMary the God-bearer?
And so the whole argument waslike you shouldn't separate
Jesus from his Godhood becausehe is true God and true man.
(48:34):
So if Jesus is true God andtrue man, then you can say, in a
way, that Mary is the mother ofGod.
She's not the mother of God,the father of God, the Holy
Spirit, but she gave humanity tothe son, and so therefore, who
is true God, true man?
Therefore, we can say that Maryis mother of God.
(48:57):
So that's where that comes from.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Excuse me.
So then we get to number 67,and here's where the council
fathers encourage a truedevotion to the Blessed Virgin
and an avoidance of extremes.
Okay, true devotion, avoidanceof extremes.
Okay, number 67.
(49:27):
This most holy synoddeliberately teaches this
Catholic doctrine and at thesame time admonishes all the
sons and daughters of the churchthat the cult, especially the
liturgical cult, of the BlessedVirgin, be generously fostered
(49:47):
and the practices and exercisesof piety recommended by the
Magisterium, the Rosary right ofthe Church toward her in the
course of centuries, be made ofgreat moment and those decrees
which have been given in theearly days regarding the cult of
images of Christ, the BlessedVirgin and the saints be
religiously observed.
(50:08):
But it exhorts theologians andpreachers of the divine word to
abstain zealously both from allgross exaggerations as well as
from petty narrow-mindedness inconsidering the singular dignity
of the Mother of God.
Following the study of SacredScripture, the Holy Fathers, the
(50:35):
Doctors and Liturgy of theChurch, and under the guidance
of the Church's Magisterium, letthem rightly illustrate the
duties and privileges of theChurch and, under the guidance
of the Church's magisterium, letthem rightly illustrate the
duties and privileges of theBlessed Virgin, which always
look to Christ, the source ofall truth, sanctity and piety.
Let them assiduously keep awayfrom whatever, either by word or
(50:56):
deed, could lead separatedbrethren or any other into error
regarding the true doctrine ofthe church.
Let the faithful remember,moreover, that true devotion
consists neither in sterile ortransitory affection, nor in a
certain vain credulity, butproceeds from true faith by
(51:19):
which we are led to know theexcellence of the mother of God
and we are moved to filial lovetoward our mother and to the
imitation of her virtues.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Yeah, that's another one of those couple lines right
there towards the end.
It's like I guess none of ushave heard that before, you know
, because it's like won't, won't, we missed that one.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
And this is what I'm always preaching about,
especially as a Marian orderLike, okay, we have a devotion
to Our Lady of Mount Carmel, yes, but it's not about a devotion
to Our Lady of Mount Carmel.
A true devotion to Our Lady ofMount Carmel is to imitate the
virtues that that represents,and for Carmelites that would be
(52:04):
the virtue of prayer, right,contemplative prayer that's
under the title of Our Lady ofMount Carmel.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
So anyway, yes, yeah, I love it.
Keep away from whatever, eitherby word or deed, could lead
separated brethren or any otherinto error regarding the true
doctrine of the church.
It's like I'm going to make at-shirt that says that, because
it's like everybody needs tojust be reminded.
I think yes, very gently, yes.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, Okay, almost there.
Roman numeral five Mary, thesign of created hope and solace
to the wandering people of God.
So this is then number 68 and69, which is the last part.
(52:51):
So non-Catholic Christians takeoffense at this article for two
reasons it seems to confirm atriumphalism of which they
accuse the Church, and two, thatthey have replaced Christ as
the sure sign with Mary, that wereplaced Christ with Mary.
(53:12):
So that's why non-CatholicChristians take offense at these
two articles.
But again, if they don'tunderstand Catholic language,
catholic theology, the Catholicambience, it's easy to
misunderstand what people aretalking about.
So again, context.
So, like I said earlier, if youwant to understand the Second
Vatican Council documents, youneed to read them all.
(53:32):
They're supposed to be read inthe context of everything else.
So anyway, our response then tothese offenses of non-Catholic
Christians is that ourcontemplation of Mary assumed
into heaven reminds us that ourearthly existence is provisional
(53:53):
and it's not triumphant of theCatholic Church in the world.
It is about reminding ourselvesthat Christ is victorious and
that Mary is the sign of thisvictory of Christ for humanity.
Two Mary is the sure sign of theresult of answering the bridal
(54:17):
call that is ours as Christ'sbride so 68 says.
The bridal call that is ours asChrist's bride so 68 says, in
the interim between now and thesecond, coming as the mother of
Jesus, glorified in body andsoul in heaven, is the image and
beginning of the church as itis to be perfected in the world
(54:44):
to come.
So too does she shine forth onearth until the day.
That is part of that sign,right, she is a prophetic sign.
(55:08):
It is not as the triumph of thechurch, it's the triumph of
Christ.
That is what we're pointing to,right.
It's in the last number, thelast, article 69.
The pain of the reality of theseparated brethren and a prayer
for unity.
(55:30):
It gives great joy and comfortto this holy and general synod
that even among the separatedbrethren there are some who give
due honor to the mother of ourLord and Savior, especially
among the Orientals, meaning theEastern churches, who, with
devout mind and fervent impulse,give honor to the mother of God
(55:55):
, ever virgin.
The entire body of the faithfulpours forth instant
supplications to the Mother ofGod and Mother of Men.
That she, who aided thebeginnings of the Church by her
prayers in the Cynical, may now,exalted as she is.
Above all, the angels andsaints intercede before her Son
(56:17):
in the fellowship of all thesaints, until all families of
people, whether they are honoredwith the title of Christian or
whether they still do not knowthe Savior, may be happily
gathered together in peace andharmony into one people of God,
for the glory of the most holyand undivided Trinity.
Each and all these items whichare set forth in this dogmatic
(56:40):
constitution have met with theapproval of the council fathers
and we, by the apostolic powergiven us by Christ, together
with the venerable fathers inthe Holy Spirit, approve, decree
and establish it, and commandthat what has thus been decided
in the council be promulgatedfor the glory of God Given in
(57:02):
Rome at St Peter's on November21st 1964.
Fini.
Speaker 1 (57:11):
The end man.
God is good.
Yes, all the time.
Yeah, I'm glad that we've takenthe time to do this.
(57:40):
Regardless of how much timeit's taken us to do this, I
wonder if maybe someday I'mgoing to do all of our
multi-parters like this, I'mgoing to do like a super cut and
just mush them all togetherinto one giant episode so people
don't have to go searching forthem and stuff like that.
But yeah, this is so good.
And I think you know, like wekeep saying there's a lot of or
we've said in the past, there'sa lot of I don't know, try not
(58:03):
to be too broad brushstroke-ybut a lot of haters of Vatican
II out there who probablyhaven't read the whole thing in
context.
No of course not.
Speaker 2 (58:12):
They just hear what other people tell them and they
don't go to the source.
Speaker 1 (58:16):
Yeah, but every time we sit down and talk about it,
just like this, it's beautifuland I think there's just so much
to sit and reflect on andthere's a lot you could probably
learn from these, looking atVatican II and going all the way
back to some early synod orcouncil and seeing how they are
related and things like that.
(58:37):
But, yeah, this has been sogood.
And, father, thank you forhumoring me in my request once
upon a time to say you know whatwe should talk about?
We should talk about chaptereight.
Yeah, okay, well, we've.
Uh, I know we're about time andyou've got a lot to do today,
(59:00):
yes, so again, thank you, andeverybody who's been so patient
with us and who have beenjoining us.
Thank you for joining.
Speaker 2 (59:07):
Thank you very much and please subscribe, download,
subscribe, share with others.
Speaker 1 (59:13):
pray for us pray for one another.
Yeah, and we've got a bunch ofstuff coming up, so everybody
look forward to seeing seeingyou all next time.
God bless, hasta later, bye.
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