September 6, 2024 • 57 mins
In this episode, we dive deep into the critical role of the laity within the Church, inspired by Lumen Gentium. We discuss how both men and women are essential to the Church's mission, working alongside clergy and religious members. Our discussion touches on the importance of collaboration, mutual respect for different vocations, and the dangers of clericalism. With the backdrop of today’s internet-driven world of strong opinions, we emphasize the need for diverse perspectives and a mature approach to faith and life.
This episode also brings to light the powerful mission of laypeople to sanctify the world through their everyday lives. We explore the concept of duty and obligation, and how the roles of priest, prophet, and king can manifest in lay vocations. Father Stephen underscores the laity's duty to live out gospel values authentically, influencing family life, civil society, and professional environments. We wrap up with a reflection on the universal call to holiness and the shared privilege of faith among all believers, making this a deeply inspiring and thought-provoking discussion.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to our podcast friends.
Thank you so much for listening.
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release.
Thank you and God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me.
I'm my friend, the Friar FatherStephen Sanchez, a Discalced
Carmelite Priest.
Good evening, father.
You're not allowed to laughanymore.
Good evening.
I was smiling very widely,there is no laughter in church.
Did you ever get in trouble forlaughing when you were a kid,
(00:48):
or getting mom pinchy orsomething?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So yeah, you're there fighting or teasing your
siblings, and then all of asudden comes the pinch.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
What have you been up to today?
Today, it's been that long of aday you already don't remember.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
It's been a long day Been doing a lot of preparing
documents, stuff Because I'mleaving for Boston tomorrow.
Well, actually I'm leavingearly Wednesday morning for
Boston for the Congress, sotrying to get a lot of stuff
done, a lot of paperwork done, alot of bank work done.
(01:31):
Thank God I had a 10 o'clockcancellation that gave me time
to do more stuff.
I was over at the parish thismorning trying to get stuff done
there and then I had to go downto the parish in the afternoon
at two.
Go send my life away.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Um, yeah, I didn't know you got elected to go to
congress or congress.
Is it congress or senate?
Which one did you get electedto?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
congress.
So that's the secular orderthey order Each territory will
have what they call a Congress,which is a calling forth of all
the communities in the territory, and they usually invite
members of the other provincesfor the secular order attend.
And since I am still, más omenos, the provincial delegate
(02:35):
to the secular order in ourterritory, this was something
that I put on my calendar monthsago.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
And so now trying to sync calendars and da-da-da-da,
and so yeah, today's been long.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
So, when you get there, we're going to adjourn
after the first 15 minutes.
Okay, we're going to need toelect bishops intelligently
Intelligently, people that weknow To be able to represent us.
There you go.
Three years later, we're goingto come out with three, or with
lots of documents.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, Something like that I wish.
Now we already got an agendastarting from when I get there.
I'm going to get in thereWednesday afternoon.
We already have an agenda forour meeting, for our council,
wednesday evening, then Thursdaymorning, then Thursday
afternoon is when the rest ofthe Congress members meet.
(03:28):
All the council members meetThursday morning from the three
provinces and the threedifferent councils of the three
different provinces and havewhat they call an IPC
Interprovincial Council meeting.
So we've got so much to do.
They, they want.
They offered us an excursiontrip or something else on on
(03:55):
either Friday or something.
I was like, no like.
By then my introverted selfwill be way over overtaxed, so
stay in my room and read.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Man, that's a.
I'm tired just thinking aboutit.
I'm not even going and I'mtired from it.
Oh, my word, it's going to besomething else.
Would you rather not to not totry and paint that in a negative
light, but would you rather bein a situation such as the
(04:34):
Congress, where you have to besocial and extra well, you know,
not necessarily extroverted yougot to interact with people,
right?
Or would you rather be?
Would you rather teach like amiddle school CCD class?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Oh, I would rather go to the Congress.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Children, I love them .
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I'm glad you do.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Somebody's got to.
No, that's why betty's mysuperhero, because I don't know
how she does it all day.
She's got a lot of kids fromvenezuela this year, with
everything going on so yeah yeahyeah, no, wow, that must be
really tough.
Yeah, I was watching this videoand I don't know how true this
is, but I thought it wasinteresting and so I'm going to
(05:32):
try and put you on the spot,because I tried to put myself on
the spot.
I failed miserably when it cameto this.
But this guy was talking aboutkind of you seeing yeah, I know
you like watching movies.
So you see in the movies likemilitary movies where the guy
runs up and he's like drop andgive me 20 or whatever, right,
and he's got to do the 20pushups.
(05:53):
So what the guy was saying inthe video was that's supposed to
be an on-the-spot test of yourfitness, right?
Are you fit to be doing thisthing?
Are you fit to continue?
Right, because I guess it couldbe a punishment at some time
too.
Are you fit to continue?
Right, because I guess it couldbe a punishment at some time
too.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
But it's like if you can't even do the 20 push-ups,
why the heck?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
are you here, dude?
Right?
So what the video was gettingat is in whatever this thing is
that you are invested in, couldyou, in a way that's relevant to
that thing, can you drop andgive 20?
So I was thinking about us andI was like, okay, well, if
(06:30):
somebody asked me how to cookmeat, like something about
cooking meat, because I lovecooking the meat, so can you
give me 20 things about cookinggood meat?
And I was like, oh, I couldthink of a couple.
But then I said, well, couldyou think of 20 things about
(06:51):
like the Catholic faith, or yourfaith, or Christianity, or
having a good relationship withGod or something?
And for some reason it was somuch harder.
And so now I'm just wondering,like you're kind of a
professional, you know you'vebeen doing this for a little bit
could you do like three?
Speaker 1 (07:12):
thank you for not calling me old, but okay uh
whatever you're younger than Iam, so could you.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
It's age is a mindset right so I think, in.
I think in that case you areyounger than I am.
But could you do like threespiritual push-ups, right, Like
if somebody said like give methree things.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, probably.
It depends on what the questionis.
It depends what they're askingand one, how catechized they are
.
I mean, do I have to start atzero or do I have to start, you
know, like, are we talking firstgrade, eighth grade, are we
talking university level,post-grad?
I mean, what are we talking?
It depends on um, on wherethey're at and what the question
(07:54):
is.
Right, yeah, yeah, I think I'menough, if at least not
proficient enough and able toverbalize it.
I probably have enoughresources that I can send them
to.
Yeah, so, yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, I've been giving conferences for decades
now.
So See, maybe that's why Istruggled, because I couldn't.
I couldn't frame the questionin my own mind Right, like give
me 20 pushups of of what, likewho, yeah, or yeah, or yeah,
cooking like meat.
That's very specific.
But well, I think so because Ithink?
Speaker 1 (08:27):
I think maybe yes.
For example, like, okay, areyou talking about smoking?
Are you talking about roasting?
Are you talking about baking?
Are you talking about beef?
Are you talking about lamb?
Are you talking about pork?
You're talking about chicken,what are you talking about?
And so, yeah, and so all those,all those, what ifs?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
yeah, well, and all those what ifs, I guess,
transferred to spiritualpush-ups, right, like, like
you're saying, who am I talkingto?
Am I talking to a kid?
Am I talking to somebody who'smarried, somebody's single,
somebody's 90, right, who knows?
Bertha just showed up.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Hi, bertha she heard us talking about food yeah,
basically, um, okay enough withour rambling.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Um, I wonder if that this can segue anyway into the
laity, which is the chapterwe're discussing you try no I
don't think so, you don't thinkso, you don't think that, you
don't think so, you don't thinkthat the laity has to be able to
engage with their faith.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Well, they should be able to give some sort of
description as to what theirvocation is.
I mean, you would think right?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
What is?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
their vocation, and that's why we're doing this to
give them the ability to dothose 20, right.
Give them some sort of arsenal.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, give them some spiritual muscle.
There you go.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Amen Amen.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
All right.
Well, so we left off with howimportant, how integral.
Integral, that's a hard word.
Let me just say a chapter.
We finished talking about theprimacy of Christ.
There you go In the church andso now the next component is the
(10:20):
laity.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Right is the laity Right.
So we've gone from chapter 2,which was an emphasis on the
primacy of Christ, and weskipped chapter 3, which we said
was on the hierarchicalstructure and the episcopate
right.
Not that that's not importantit is.
(10:41):
But for the context of where wewant to go towards chapter 8,
on Our Lady and the Church, Iwanted to just skip over that
and jump into chapter 4, theLaity, which in Lumen Gentium,
are numbers 30 through 38.
So let me read number 30, whichis the opening paragraph for
(11:05):
the chapter for On the Laity.
So number 30 says Having setforth the functions of the
hierarchy, which was chapter 3,the sacred council gladly turns
its attention to the state ofthose faithful called the laity.
Everything that has been saidabove concerning the people of
(11:27):
God chapter 2, is intended forthe laity, religious and clergy
alike, which is chapter 4, andthen the chapter on religious
and the chapter on clergy.
But there are certain thingswhich pertain in a special way
to the laity, both men and women, by reason of their condition
(11:48):
and mission.
Due to the specialcircumstances of our time, the
foundations of this doctrinemust be more thoroughly examined
, for their pastors know howmuch the laity contribute to the
welfare of the entire church.
They also know that they werenot ordained by Christ to take
(12:12):
upon themselves alone the entiresalvific mission of the church
toward the world.
In other words, and let mepause right there, in other
words, this is sort of a way inwhich the church, very subtly,
is addressing the idea ofclericalism, that the priest has
to do everything, or the priestwants to do everything, or the
priest wants to be in charge ofeverything.
(12:33):
And so here we're having the,the council fathers say that
they know that they were notordained by christ to do it all
by themselves, and so that theyneed the participation, then, of
the laity.
So then, continuing on, heyBertha, on the contrary, they
(12:53):
understand that it is theirnoble duty, the pastors, the
bishops and the clergy, toshepherd the faithful and to
recognize their ministries andcharisms, so so that all,
according to their proper rules,may cooperate in this common
undertaking with one mind, forwe must all practice the truth
(13:16):
in love and so grow up in allthings in him who is head Christ
, all things in him who is headChrist, for from him the whole
body being closely joined andknit together through every
joint of the system, accordingto the functioning and due
measure of each single partderives its increase to the
(13:38):
building up of itself.
In love, Okay, in love, okay.
So just a little unpacking ofthis, not too much but just
unpacking of this here.
the council fathers are sort ofrecalling Paul's image of the
body, like they're differentmembers, right, and each member
(14:01):
of the body has its thing to do.
(14:34):
And so the hand does one thing,the foot does another thing, and
so here this is a way in whichthe council fathers are trying
to remind the clergy, thereligious and the laity that we
each overstep our role.
Right, because sometimes youget some personalities that get
over, they're overly charged oroverly controlling.
Right, and so they want to takeon the role of Jesus.
Right, they want to be theSavior, the Messiah, complex.
Right, and so what happens isthat becomes a countersign of
actually what we're supposed tobe doing.
(14:55):
Right, to work together.
So part of the whole idea of thedignity of the human person,
the dignity of everyone that isbaptized, is, again, we all
receive a mission through thegrace of baptism, and so what is
our mission?
So we have to be careful thatwe recognize and respect the
role that each one of us iscalled to, and there is
(15:17):
obviously some interdependenceand there is some cooperation or
collaboration, but each one hasits own, each vocation has its
own role in the body, and sosometimes there's confusion in
the body because people within aparticular role are trying to
(15:39):
or are bleeding over into otherroles that are not theirs.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Okay, does that make sense?
Yeah, no, it does, and it makesme think a lot kind of I
wouldn't, I wouldn't call usinfluential or anything right
it's thinking about people onthe internet.
Yeah, there's a lot of peoplewho have very, very strong
(16:05):
opinions and oh yeah, and use aplatform for that yeah, and and
we really want to just encouragepeople to think and consider
and educate themselves right andone another.
Excuse me, so it just it waskind of making me think about
that, but it also made me wonderabout that the health of the
(16:28):
church when people so so likethis is saying the laity has a
role, the priest has a role,right, the priest even if you're
thinking kind of Old Testament,like the priest is the person
who takes care of the temple andhe's the one who administers
(16:50):
the rituals and he's the one whoprotects the scripture and all
that kind of thing.
But all the people outside ofthe temple are the ones who are
doing way more acting, but it'sdisordered when they're
listening to each other morethan they're listening to the
priest, right, or or whateverright?
And so I'm just kind ofthinking about that kind of
(17:10):
thing too.
Where, where do people gettheir information from?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
yeah, and, like I said, like we talked about the
previous episode, is that do Ihave the maturity spiritual,
emotional, psychological do Ihave the maturity necessary to
be able to consider an opposingview right?
(17:36):
Somebody disagrees with me andwhat's very disappointing is, a
lot of times what happens isthere are certain religious
people.
By religious I mean notreligious like consecrated
religious, I just mean peoplethat are pious right or devoted
(17:57):
to their faith.
What happens is they only seekout those that agree with them.
They have their bubble right,and so part of being in the
bubble is that only we're rightand everybody else is wrong,
right, and so then you're noteven willing to consider the
(18:20):
fact that you might be skewedright.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And so, which is fine .
So like, for example, if whenyou draw a graph and you start
two lines, and you start, let'ssay, there's a, there's a three
degree difference between oneline and the other line.
Well, when you're only, whenyou only draw one inch or three
inches of those two lines, it'snot very much, but if you keep
(18:44):
moving and drawing those linesout to 10, 15, 15 feet, there's
a huge difference.
Yeah, and that's what happens,for example, like the episode
the other day when I brought upthe port clears in Spain that
have decided that they don'tbelong to the church anymore and
da-da-da-da-da-da.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
I go like wow.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
So way back there, somewhere they began to be
skewed and this is where theyfind themselves.
They find themselves in aschism from the church and they
believe themselves to be thetrue church, the true believers,
the only ones, and I go like.
That is so sad, it's very sad,but it's something that can
(19:28):
happen to anybody and that's whyit's very important to be
objective, to seek to educateyourself, even if it's
uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, I think this also speaks to something we were
speaking previously about too,and how it's.
It can't be like a personalfaith or religion whatever, like
you have to be in relationshipwith one another, because if, as
a matter of fact, I would, Imight argue that the more
(20:01):
relationships you have, the lessopportunity you have for that
sounding for that echo chamberto develop around you.
Yes, and you might be moreprone to realize that you're a
few degrees off before you're 15feet down the road, right,
right.
Yeah, it also makes me think,and maybe we'll get to it or
(20:26):
maybe we'll just need to talkabout it in another episode but
the importance of obedience.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
I don't think our culture understands obedience
well, no, they don't, they don'tvalue it, and it comes from
again.
It comes from a very I don'twant to say an honest place and
I don't want to say we come byit honestly.
Again, it comes from a very Idon't want to say an honest
place and I don't want to say wecome by it honestly.
But in the United States,because of the culture of
(20:58):
independence, right, and becauseit is a culture of sort of
democracy, I think we have areally difficult time
understanding the value ofobedience, right, because it's
for everybody else but me, right, yeah, and so it is hard, and
so I think part of it too issometimes, when I see something
(21:19):
on YouTube and sometimes it's ofa religious nature sometimes I
go like oh, my word Reallysometimes I go like, oh, my word
, right, really it might besomebody that is very pious,
(21:39):
somebody that is appealing to aparticular brand of Christianity
or Catholicism, right.
And so it just makes me very sadto go like, wow, is that really
Wow, really.
So anyway, this is part of whatthis is sort of like the
caution that is seen in number30 years.
The church is trying toemphasize that there are proper
roles, and so we need to knowwhat our role is.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
And again the fact that I am not the pope, I am not
the archbishop, I am not youknow whatever.
And so, okay, you're the onethat has to stand before God and
my only thing is okay, I haveto listen to you and okay, so I
will obey you, even if it'sdifficult or I don't understand
it or I think it's crazy.
Okay, so I have to trust in thegrace of obedience, right.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, I think Padre Pio is a good example of some of
the things he went through andhe was obedient and he's like
you're the boss.
Yeah.
You know, and it worked outbecause God has a plan in all
this?
Crazy.
So anyway, I'll let you getback to it.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Okay, no, thank you for that.
Yeah, that's something thatHumanity, humanity.
So, um, here I'm going to takea line from as we get to the
laity right and start digginginto the chapter and laity.
So what I'm going to do here isI'm going to take a line from
(22:59):
chapter two on the people of god.
That kind of, I believe,summarizes to a degree the
essential point of that chapter,chapter two on the people of
God, and that I'm taking thisfrom number 10.
Therefore, all the disciples ofChrist, persevering in prayer
and praising God, should presentthemselves as a living
(23:24):
sacrifice, holy and pleasing toGod Everywhere on earth.
They must bear witness to Christand give an answer to those who
seek an account of that hope ofeternal life which is in them.
Okay now, the reason I broughtthis out is because our faith is
(23:49):
not just about going to church,going to Mass, receiving
communion, receiving thesacraments that we celebrate is
(24:14):
that I present myself to God,the Father, with the bread and
the wine to be consecrated andto be offered, that I become a
living sacrifice, a livingvehicle for God's grace in the
world.
And a lot of people are missingthat.
They're getting stuck on thedevotional, pious aspect and
then not really askingthemselves the hard question
where am I in my conversion?
Am I giving witness?
(24:35):
Am I truly being a livingsacrifice that is holy and
pleasing to God?
And that's very important,because sometimes we get stuck
in the affect, we get stuck inthe sentimentality of things and
we can get stuck in the pietyof things.
Again, piety is a good thing,true piety is a good thing, it's
(24:57):
a virtue.
But sometimes what can happenis you get caught in the
emotional thing, you get caughtin the self-consolation, in the
look at me, I'm being good kindof thing, and you forget the
sacrifice aspect of it, that Godis asking of me to practice
heroic virtue in some situationsthat I find uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, I think in our culture too, we get caught up in
the performative aspect ofeverything.
Yes, Like the productive, did Iproduce this thing.
Because, that's the only way Ihave value you know.
So did I check the boxes?
Did I pray my rosary today?
Yes, Did I go to mass today?
Yes, Did I go to confessiononce a year, or whatever?
(25:45):
The minimum is right?
Did I check all the boxesinstead of, like you're saying,
reflecting back on where Iactually am?
Because I think where you are.
I mean, wouldn't you ratherhave a whole room full of guys
that are really really bad atliving out their faith but
really really want to?
Yes, Than a bunch of guys thatdo it perfectly but it's just
(26:09):
dead?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, it's performance, right, performative
, exactly.
Yeah, no, I agree, I agree.
I'd rather talk to somebodywho's down in the dirt and
rolled up their sleeves andcovered in blood, sweat and
tears Okay, we can talk rightInstead of somebody that's
worried about scrupulosity andperformance and all this other
(26:33):
stuff, which is a very difficultplace to be.
But they need to get past thatand really look at you.
Know what is the conversionthat God is calling me to?
Right, and can I allow myselfto be convicted by the Holy
Spirit, would you say?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
the best way to get to that is prayer?
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Oh, definitely, it's presenting yourself.
And again, see, now we gothrough this Give me 20.
So it depends what is prayer?
If prayer is just rote, theneventually the Holy Spirit will
break through.
But to actually sit in silenceand to just reflect on and think
(27:14):
about Christ, his sacredhumanity, what this means, the
Christ event, and what it meansto me and what he's invited me
into, yeah, that's going tohappen.
The conversion will happen thatway.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah, and we've got some great episodes on prayer
and relationship for people togo check out if they haven't
heard them.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yes, yes, please do so anyway, getting back to this
idea, then, trying to recap alittle bit of the previous
chapters as we talk about laity,so this whole idea of, through
baptism, that we each one of usthat is baptized shares in the
(27:54):
different, what's known, whatthey call the Munera, the Munera
of Christ priest, prophet andking.
Right so the Munera comes fromthe Latin, which has to do with
duty and obligation.
Right from the Latin, which hasto do with duty and obligation.
Right so the duty, obligation,responsibility of Jesus as
priest, prophet and king.
(28:14):
And because we're baptized intoJesus Christ, we also share in
those duties and obligations ofpriest, prophet and king,
according, then, to our state inlife, according to our vocation
.
So you have that, throughbaptism, in addition to the
baptismal call or the baptismalduty of priest, prophet and king
, each individual withincommunity lives out this sharing
(28:41):
in a different way, accordingto their state of life or
vocation.
The clergy are differentbecause of ordination.
The religious are differentbecause of their public vows or
promises to live by theevangelical councils of poverty,
chastity and obedience.
So, then, that whichdistinguishes the laity from the
(29:02):
clergy and the consecratedreligious is the very nature of
the secular character of theirlife, as is explicated in
Numbers 31 and 35 of thedocument and we'll talk about 31
in just a minute.
The principal characteristic ofthe laity is they're living in
(29:26):
the midst of the world that isin need of renewal, and that
that very secularity of thelaity, through the life, work
and mission of the laity, ismore and more brought into
harmony with the teachings ofChrist.
Okay, we'll come back to thatin just a minute.
(29:48):
Let me read number 31.
But the laity, by their vocation, seek the kingdom of God by
engaging in temporal affairs andby ordering them according to
the plan of God.
They live in the world, that is, in each and in all of the
(30:10):
secular professions andoccupations.
They live in the ordinarycircumstances of family and
social life from which the veryweb of their existence is woven.
They are called there by Godthat, by exercising their proper
function in the world and ledby the Spirit of the Gospel,
(30:32):
they may work for thesanctification of the world from
within, as a leaven.
In this way, they may makeChrist known to others,
especially by the testimony of alife resplendent in faith, hope
and charity.
Therefore, since they aretightly bound up in all types of
(30:55):
temporal affairs.
It is their special task toorder and to throw light upon
these affairs in such a way thatthey may come into being and
then continually increase,according to Christ.
Okay, so then, part of themission, then, of the secular or
(31:21):
the laity, the lay person, theLaos, the people of God,
no-transcript, to be a livingsacrifice where they find
(31:43):
themselves, that they bring totheir situation gospel values.
It doesn't mean that you imposeyourself on others.
It means, by the way that youlive your life, you are being an
example and therefore you arepreparing the society, the world
(32:05):
, to receive the gospel when itis time, or when God decides
it's time for them, or invitesthem into the gospel, right Into
faith.
And so I think this is veryimportant, because sometimes
what can happen is being the dosociety, society.
A lot of people want to go outon mission, go out and preach,
(32:30):
go convert the Baptist or theBuddhists or whatever, right,
which, okay, fine, there's aplace for that.
But in your workplace, at theTarget at the, at the Target, at
the Walmart, at the Costco, atthe Whole Foods?
(32:51):
Wherever you find yourself, areyou conducting yourself in a
way that would manifest that youare a believer, a disciple?
Do you respect the dignity ofthose people around you?
Are you another Christ that iscapable of being considerate and
(33:16):
compassionate and understanding?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I saw this thing this one time, and what you're
saying makes me think of this,and I can't remember where I
heard it or saw it.
So I apologize, but could yoube put on trial for being
Christian without having eversaid that you're Christian?
Speaker 1 (33:32):
There you are.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
So you never actually said it, but could you be put
on trial and convicted of beingChristian from just the way you
live your life?
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Right, yeah, the way you interact with others, the
way you live your life.
Right, yeah, the way youinteract with others.
And so there's something tothink about, because I think
this is a much harder thing todo than to stand on a street
corner and preach about theheretics, and that they need to
learn how to pray all themysteries of the rosary, I mean.
(34:03):
And the rosary is wonderful andgreat, and the stations of the
cross are wonderful and great,and they make sense to us who
believe and use them withdevotion, but sometimes what
happens is the laity, or notjust the laity, throughout the
whole church, people getconfused as to what their proper
function and role is.
(34:23):
So, as a and this is what Ifind very disturbing at times is
sometimes, when I see clergy orreligious or people who put on
the robe of religious authority,instead of teaching, instead of
catechizing, they areexpounding their point of view,
(34:49):
their political, religiouspreference, right, instead of
catechizing, right?
So okay, let me jump down tonumber 32.
So okay, let me, let me jumpdown to number 32.
(35:09):
If, therefore, in the church,everyone does not proceed by the
same path and others, in otherwords, we all have different
vocations.
If, therefore, in the church.
Everyone does not proceed bythe same path.
Nevertheless, all are called tosanctity.
So here already we havesomething that's going to bring
us into the next chapter theuniversal call of sanctity.
Right, all are called tosanctity and have received an
(35:54):
equal privilege of faith throughthe justice of God.
And here is something that Iwant to share from this right
All share a true equality withregard to the dignity and to the
activity common to all thefaithful anger, the condemnation
(36:22):
, sometimes even the vileness ofpeople in a religious role,
condemning and judging and, youknow, basically casting others
into the deepest parts of hell.
Right, and I go like, really Doyou?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
really have to do this?
Can't you just teach?
Don't judge, don't condemn.
People are smart enough to drawconclusions.
Why can't you just teach?
Speaker 1 (37:03):
So you're not a fan of the fire and brimstone
homilies.
No, I mean, you have toproclaim the truth of that there
is a hell and that there is theconsequence of my choice.
But I believe the more youtreat people as adults, the more
they're going to mature.
You just lay it out for them.
Okay, these are theconsequences, this is the choice
(37:24):
.
Okay, and going back to the OldTestament, I set before you
life and death you choose.
I ask you to choose life, and ifyou want to choose death, okay,
that's between you and God welland right.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Jesus talks more about hell than anyone else, I
think in the entire.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Bible yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
And I agree.
I think if you are acting in away that is deserving of
people's trust, then as youspeak the truth, as you speak
the truth, then the Holy Spiritis going to be way more
(38:08):
convicting than you could everbe anyway, even on your best day
.
Yes, yes.
So just let—and that's kind ofwhat we're talking about.
Everybody has a role.
Let—you're not Jesus, let Jesusbe Jesus.
Let God do the godly things,and you do your thing, you know.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
But it's also not an excuse to not act or not speak
the truth either.
No, I agree, I mean, but Ithink part of it is this I think
the culture of anger that wehave in the United States and
probably in the world, is peopletap into that.
And again, if you're looking toget a larger following, right,
especially if you're on socialmedia and it's about you know
(38:55):
how many followers do I haveyeah, it's easy to get into the
righteous anger thing and, youknow, into that bubble of
righteous anger andda-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
Yeah, there is a market forthat and there is those people
(39:15):
that that is what they'recultivating and that's who
they're appealing to and that iswho they do appeal to, right.
Yeah, and that's okay, that'stheir thing, right, but that's
not healthy.
Yeah, it's not a healthy thing100%.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
So you know, my wife's a teacher and I used to
be a teacher and you get a bunchof teachers together and the
easiest way to get them to startinteracting is to complain
somehow about the educationsystem and go am I right?
You know, and now everybody's.
But it's not healthy becausenone of them are teachers,
because of the things that theyhate.
And so instead, put your energyinto the wonderful things that
(39:52):
happen, because you're devotingyourself to helping these kids.
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
And again, that's what.
That's why catechesis is soimportant, that's why education
is so important, that's whybeing objective is so important,
that's why it's willing to lookat difficult and hard questions
is so important, because youknow, as the Lord himself says
in the Gospels, you know if yousay hello only to those who say
hello to you, or you love onlythose who love you, so you care.
(40:21):
Anyway, sorry for the rant.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
No, I'm not sorry for the rant, you're just doing
them push-ups today.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Okay, so number 33 of Lumen Gentium, the lay
apostolate is a participation inthe salvific mission of the
church itself and I have thatunderlined because that is very
(40:55):
important by the lay persondoing what they can at the job
site, in the family, at home, atthe Costco, at the Sam's,
whatever, by trying to live adignified life and being
respectful and kind andconsiderate and polite to others
.
That that is already aparticipation in the salvific
(41:18):
mission of the church and that'simportant.
You make a difference by theway that you interact with
others.
You make a difference with yourattitude and the way you
(41:38):
consider others or don'tconsider others.
Okay, so that's just the firstsentence from number 33.
So, through their baptism andconfirmation, all are
commissioned to that apostolateby the Lord himself.
We are all missionaries.
Moreover, by the sacraments,especially Holy Eucharist, the
(42:01):
charity toward God and man,which is the soul of the
apostolate, is communicated andnourished.
Okay, let me go back to that.
What is the soul of theapostolate?
For anyone in the church?
It is the charity towards Godand man, love of God and love of
(42:21):
neighbor.
That is essential.
Okay, now the laity are calledin a special way to make the
church present and operative inthose places and circumstances
where only through them can itbecome the salt of the earth.
Thus, every layman, in virtueof the very gifts bestowed upon
him, is at the same time awitness and a living instrument
(42:44):
of the mission of the church.
So, then, the special vocationof the laity lays in Christ's
call to them to make the churchpresent and fruitful in those
places and circumstances whereit is only through them that she
(43:06):
, the church, can become thesalt of the earth.
It's not the job of the priest,it's not the job of the
religious.
We have our place within thecommunity of faith, and it is
our job to catechize, teach,help, guide, give example to the
(43:28):
laity, so that the laity can goout into the world and fulfill
their mission, their call.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yeah, something that's always been interesting
to me about that is, therelationship between the laity
and the clergy is where do youthink our bishops come from?
Where do you think our priestscome from?
Right from the lady exactlyyeah, if we don't have a healthy
, thriving catechized laity,then what do you think our
(43:59):
future priests and bishops andall that?
Speaker 1 (44:01):
are just all vocations period.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
So continuing on then .
So the this is a quote fromEphesians they conduct
themselves as children of thepromise and thus, strong in
faith and in hope, they make themost of the present and then,
quoting Romans, and withpatience await the glory that is
(44:31):
to come.
Let them not then hide in thedepths of their hearts, but even
in the program of their secularlife.
Let them express by a continualconversion and by wrestling
against the world rulers of thisdarkness, against the spiritual
forces of wickedness.
That's from Lumen Gentium,number 35.
(44:54):
So they're saying it's difficult, yes, it's difficult, you're
wrestling with the world,against the world, to try to be
this light, this salt, to livethis faith, hope and love, to
live this glory of God, which islove of God and love of
(45:15):
neighbor.
Yes, it is hard, yes, it isdifficult, but the church offers
you the sacraments as a way tostrengthen yourself for this
mission.
So when you don't strengthenyourself, when you don't feed
yourself, then this missionbecomes very, very difficult and
at times that's why some peopleget tired, that's why some
(45:38):
people walk away, away.
It's because they're not reallytaking care of themselves and
the needs that they have to livethis consecration, this mission
, right.
So I have a quote here fromJordan Allman, who is a
(46:00):
religious, he's a Dominican, areligious spiritual writer.
He's a religious.
He's a Dominican, a religiousspiritual writer.
So a lay person in the churchis a baptized Christian who is
deputed like deputized, who isdeputed to renew the temporal
and secular order according toChristian principles.
It's okay, let me stop there.
(46:22):
Principles, it's okay, let mestop there.
So then, what Jordan Almond issaying is you have been
deputized to renew the world.
That is your.
You have been deputized to thataccording to Christian
principles.
You are to renew the worldaccording to Christian
principles.
So how is your deputation goingthen?
(46:43):
Right, what am I doing for thator towards that?
It is especially incumbent onthe laity to renew family life
and civil society, as well asthe various secular professions.
Can you imagine what wouldhappen to Wall Street if they
(47:05):
started living according to thegospel, or Madison Avenue or the
advertisers if they would startliving according to the gospel
values?
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Yeah, can you imagine how all of the voting processes
at all the different stages ofgovernment, local, city, state,
county, whatever, right, it'd beamazing.
(47:41):
But we talked about that onceupon a time too.
What did you say?
Because I didn't know what itwas.
I hadn't heard about it Makinga Christian state, or something
like that oh Christiannationalism.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I guess slippery slope,father, you got to be careful.
Be careful what you ask for.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
That is very different from this.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
That is very different from this.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
That is very different from this.
Okay, so in Numbers 34 and 35,there's an exhortation to the
laity to enter into theirmission with zeal and courage.
So if you're interested I hopeyou are interested go and read
Numbers 34 and 35 of LumenGentium.
So let me jump to 36.
And 35, so let me jump to 36.
(48:29):
The faithful, therefore, mustlearn the deepest meaning and
the value of all creation, allcreation.
The faithful, therefore, mustlearn the deepest meaning and
the value of all creation, aswell as its role, creation's
role in the harmonious praise ofGod.
They must assist each other tolive holier lives, even in their
(48:53):
daily occupations.
In this way, the world may bepermeated by the Spirit of
Christ and it may moreeffectively fulfill its purpose
in justice, charity and peace.
The laity have the principalrole in the overall fulfillment
of this duty.
Therefore, by their competencein secular training and by their
(49:15):
activity elevated from withinby the grace of Christ, let them
vigorously contribute theireffort so that created goods may
be perfected by human labor,technical skill and civic
culture for the benefit of all,according to the design of the
Creator and the light of HisWord.
Moreover, let the Lady also, bytheir combined efforts, remedy
(49:38):
the customs and conditions ofthe world.
Conditions of the world if theyare an inducement to sin, so
that they all may be conformedto the norms of justice and may
favor the practice of virtuerather than hinder it.
So if we see that there is somesort of cultural value that is
an inducement to sin, we arethen called to remedy that
(50:03):
situation.
Okay, okay, we're almosttowards the end of chapter.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Yeah, we kept getting off some tangents.
Sorry guys.
I think we can finish this oneup, though.
Sorry people.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Okay.
So Article 37 speaks of that aperson's right to help in this
mission and formation for thismission, yet also, in humble
obedience, to accept thedecisions of those who have a
greater role in the guidance ofthe Church.
Their pastors are reminded torespect and help the layperson
feel empowered to engage intheir proper apostolate.
(50:44):
That's number 37.
So now let me jump to 38.
Each individual layman muststand before the world as a
witness to the resurrection andthe life of the Lord Jesus and a
symbol of the living God.
All the laity as a community,and each one according to his
ability, must nourish the worldwith spiritual fruits.
(51:07):
They must diffuse in the worldthat spirit which animates the
poor, the meek, the peacemakerswhom the Lord in the gospel
proclaimed as blessed.
In a word, I love that.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
The St John Chrysostom guy, like he's got
some interesting thoughts.
Yes, he does interestingthoughts.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
Yes, he does so.
Now let me take this quote fromthe decree on the apostolate of
the laity Apostolicumactuositatem.
This is number two, on theapostolate of the laity.
In the church, there isdiversity of ministry but unity
(52:04):
of mission To the Apostles andtheir successors.
Christ has entrusted the officeof teaching, sanctifying and
governing in his name and by hispower.
But the laity are made to sharein the priestly prophetic and
kingly office of Christ.
In the priestly prophetic andkingly office of Christ, they
have therefore, in the churchand in the world, their own
(52:26):
assignment in the mission of thewhole people of God, the
characteristic of the lay statebeing a life led in the midst of
the world and of secularaffairs.
Laymen are called by God tomake of their apostolate through
the vigor of their Christianspirit Again, 11 in the world.
(52:49):
Okay, so Pope Paul VI expandedthe role and functions of the
laity with what is called therepression of the minor orders.
Right, so you used to have theminor minor orders which were
reserved for seminarians.
Right to be ordained, you hadporter, you had all these
(53:10):
different minor orders right,according to the steps up
towards priesthood.
So, with the repression of theminor orders, and redefined them
as ministries, not onlyreserved for the candidates for
the sacrament of orders, butalso for the ministries of the
laity.
Permanent lector and acolyteare still reserved for
(53:32):
candidates to sacred orders, butthe laity can serve as lectors
and acolytes on a temporarybasis.
Okay, now, I have a quote herefrom Jacques Leclerc, who was a
Belgian Roman Catholictheologian and priest.
The laity, formed to the divinelife of the Church, have to
(53:55):
transform the world, and theywill transform it if they are
genuinely Christian.
One of the fundamentaltragedies of Christianity as it
has developed in history is thatthe laity have not carried out
their task.
And perhaps this tragedy simplyfollows from another equally
(54:21):
fundamental, namely that theclergy have not fulfilled theirs
.
The clergy were to form thelaity and they have not done so
to a sufficient degree.
Then, for the lack of properlyformed laymen.
They have tried to take theplace of the laity and have done
so badly.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
That's exactly what we were talking about earlier
with influencers and stuff.
Yeah, and it's funny because Ihad forgotten about this when we
were saying that at thebeginning.
This is exactly what happened.
This guy was in the late 18,.
Well, he was born in the late1800s.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:57):
Yeah, oh, like that alone is, I think, something for
everybody to take to prayer.
Have they been well-formed?
And if well, I guess the firstthing is to ask the Holy Spirit
(55:18):
to help you to see right, To bevery honest and genuine with
your evaluation of yourself andyour situation right.
Have I been well catechized?
Have I been well formed?
If not, how do I do that andhow do I support those who are
supposed to be so?
It's not.
Let me go tell you, father, howyou can better catechize
(55:40):
everybody.
It's how do I support you indoing what your mission is Right
?
And then, of course, that'sgoing to make that feedback loop
where we're going to get betterpriests and bishops because we
have a better laity, and allthat yes.
(56:04):
So there, so there man, there'sa, there's a lot in this, in
this uh, chapter, to to thinkabout.
I understand now why you I'msure, um, what was it?
Chapters two and three, withthe ones that we skipped?
Yeah, um, I'm sure they'rethere.
I know they're full of goodstuff that probably make this
(56:26):
even more impactful andinsightful and everything.
But I can see why you wanted tospend the time on this one that
you did, because this is goingto impact our next.
This is this informs, this setsthe stage for the next episode,
the universal call to holiness.
Yes, and all of these conceptsare going to help us properly
(56:50):
place and will properlyunderstand Mary's place.
Speaker 1 (56:54):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (56:58):
Oh, it's good stuff.
It's good stuff.
Speaker 1 (57:00):
I love my faith, me too.
Speaker 2 (57:04):
Well, this one's long , so we'll keep goodbyes short.
Father, I hope you have a safetrip.
I hope you get back safely.
Thanks for this, everybody,thanks for joining us.
We'll see you next time, bye,bye.
Welcome to our podcast friends.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you like our podcast andwant to support us, please
subscribe or follow us, andplease don't forget to click the
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release.
Thank you and God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me.
I'm my friend, the Friar FatherStephen Sanchez, a Discalced
Carmelite Priest.
Good evening, father.
You're not allowed to laughanymore.
Good evening.
I was smiling very widely,there is no laughter in church.
Did you ever get in trouble forlaughing when you were a kid,
(00:48):
or getting mom pinchy orsomething?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So yeah, you're there fighting or teasing your
siblings, and then all of asudden comes the pinch.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
What have you been up to today?
Today, it's been that long of aday you already don't remember.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
It's been a long day Been doing a lot of preparing
documents, stuff Because I'mleaving for Boston tomorrow.
Well, actually I'm leavingearly Wednesday morning for
Boston for the Congress, sotrying to get a lot of stuff
done, a lot of paperwork done, alot of bank work done.
(01:31):
Thank God I had a 10 o'clockcancellation that gave me time
to do more stuff.
I was over at the parish thismorning trying to get stuff done
there and then I had to go downto the parish in the afternoon
at two.
Go send my life away.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Um, yeah, I didn't know you got elected to go to
congress or congress.
Is it congress or senate?
Which one did you get electedto?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
congress.
So that's the secular orderthey order Each territory will
have what they call a Congress,which is a calling forth of all
the communities in the territory, and they usually invite
members of the other provincesfor the secular order attend.
And since I am still, más omenos, the provincial delegate
(02:35):
to the secular order in ourterritory, this was something
that I put on my calendar monthsago.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
And so now trying to sync calendars and da-da-da-da,
and so yeah, today's been long.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
So, when you get there, we're going to adjourn
after the first 15 minutes.
Okay, we're going to need toelect bishops intelligently
Intelligently, people that weknow To be able to represent us.
There you go.
Three years later, we're goingto come out with three, or with
lots of documents.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, Something like that I wish.
Now we already got an agendastarting from when I get there.
I'm going to get in thereWednesday afternoon.
We already have an agenda forour meeting, for our council,
wednesday evening, then Thursdaymorning, then Thursday
afternoon is when the rest ofthe Congress members meet.
(03:28):
All the council members meetThursday morning from the three
provinces and the threedifferent councils of the three
different provinces and havewhat they call an IPC
Interprovincial Council meeting.
So we've got so much to do.
They, they want.
They offered us an excursiontrip or something else on on
(03:55):
either Friday or something.
I was like, no like.
By then my introverted selfwill be way over overtaxed, so
stay in my room and read.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Man, that's a.
I'm tired just thinking aboutit.
I'm not even going and I'mtired from it.
Oh, my word, it's going to besomething else.
Would you rather not to not totry and paint that in a negative
light, but would you rather bein a situation such as the
(04:34):
Congress, where you have to besocial and extra well, you know,
not necessarily extroverted yougot to interact with people,
right?
Or would you rather be?
Would you rather teach like amiddle school CCD class?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Oh, I would rather go to the Congress.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Children, I love them .
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I'm glad you do.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Somebody's got to.
No, that's why betty's mysuperhero, because I don't know
how she does it all day.
She's got a lot of kids fromvenezuela this year, with
everything going on so yeah yeahyeah, no, wow, that must be
really tough.
Yeah, I was watching this videoand I don't know how true this
is, but I thought it wasinteresting and so I'm going to
(05:32):
try and put you on the spot,because I tried to put myself on
the spot.
I failed miserably when it cameto this.
But this guy was talking aboutkind of you seeing yeah, I know
you like watching movies.
So you see in the movies likemilitary movies where the guy
runs up and he's like drop andgive me 20 or whatever, right,
and he's got to do the 20pushups.
(05:53):
So what the guy was saying inthe video was that's supposed to
be an on-the-spot test of yourfitness, right?
Are you fit to be doing thisthing?
Are you fit to continue?
Right, because I guess it couldbe a punishment at some time
too.
Are you fit to continue?
Right, because I guess it couldbe a punishment at some time
too.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
But it's like if you can't even do the 20 push-ups,
why the heck?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
are you here, dude?
Right?
So what the video was gettingat is in whatever this thing is
that you are invested in, couldyou, in a way that's relevant to
that thing, can you drop andgive 20?
So I was thinking about us andI was like, okay, well, if
(06:30):
somebody asked me how to cookmeat, like something about
cooking meat, because I lovecooking the meat, so can you
give me 20 things about cookinggood meat?
And I was like, oh, I couldthink of a couple.
But then I said, well, couldyou think of 20 things about
(06:51):
like the Catholic faith, or yourfaith, or Christianity, or
having a good relationship withGod or something?
And for some reason it was somuch harder.
And so now I'm just wondering,like you're kind of a
professional, you know you'vebeen doing this for a little bit
could you do like three?
Speaker 1 (07:12):
thank you for not calling me old, but okay uh
whatever you're younger than Iam, so could you.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
It's age is a mindset right so I think, in.
I think in that case you areyounger than I am.
But could you do like threespiritual push-ups, right, Like
if somebody said like give methree things.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, probably.
It depends on what the questionis.
It depends what they're askingand one, how catechized they are
.
I mean, do I have to start atzero or do I have to start, you
know, like, are we talking firstgrade, eighth grade, are we
talking university level,post-grad?
I mean, what are we talking?
It depends on um, on wherethey're at and what the question
(07:54):
is.
Right, yeah, yeah, I think I'menough, if at least not
proficient enough and able toverbalize it.
I probably have enoughresources that I can send them
to.
Yeah, so, yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, I've been giving conferences for decades
now.
So See, maybe that's why Istruggled, because I couldn't.
I couldn't frame the questionin my own mind Right, like give
me 20 pushups of of what, likewho, yeah, or yeah, or yeah,
cooking like meat.
That's very specific.
But well, I think so because Ithink?
Speaker 1 (08:27):
I think maybe yes.
For example, like, okay, areyou talking about smoking?
Are you talking about roasting?
Are you talking about baking?
Are you talking about beef?
Are you talking about lamb?
Are you talking about pork?
You're talking about chicken,what are you talking about?
And so, yeah, and so all those,all those, what ifs?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
yeah, well, and all those what ifs, I guess,
transferred to spiritualpush-ups, right, like, like
you're saying, who am I talkingto?
Am I talking to a kid?
Am I talking to somebody who'smarried, somebody's single,
somebody's 90, right, who knows?
Bertha just showed up.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Hi, bertha she heard us talking about food yeah,
basically, um, okay enough withour rambling.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Um, I wonder if that this can segue anyway into the
laity, which is the chapterwe're discussing you try no I
don't think so, you don't thinkso, you don't think that, you
don't think so, you don't thinkthat the laity has to be able to
engage with their faith.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Well, they should be able to give some sort of
description as to what theirvocation is.
I mean, you would think right?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
What is?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
their vocation, and that's why we're doing this to
give them the ability to dothose 20, right.
Give them some sort of arsenal.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, give them some spiritual muscle.
There you go.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Amen Amen.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
All right.
Well, so we left off with howimportant, how integral.
Integral, that's a hard word.
Let me just say a chapter.
We finished talking about theprimacy of Christ.
There you go In the church andso now the next component is the
(10:20):
laity.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Right is the laity Right.
So we've gone from chapter 2,which was an emphasis on the
primacy of Christ, and weskipped chapter 3, which we said
was on the hierarchicalstructure and the episcopate
right.
Not that that's not importantit is.
(10:41):
But for the context of where wewant to go towards chapter 8,
on Our Lady and the Church, Iwanted to just skip over that
and jump into chapter 4, theLaity, which in Lumen Gentium,
are numbers 30 through 38.
So let me read number 30, whichis the opening paragraph for
(11:05):
the chapter for On the Laity.
So number 30 says Having setforth the functions of the
hierarchy, which was chapter 3,the sacred council gladly turns
its attention to the state ofthose faithful called the laity.
Everything that has been saidabove concerning the people of
(11:27):
God chapter 2, is intended forthe laity, religious and clergy
alike, which is chapter 4, andthen the chapter on religious
and the chapter on clergy.
But there are certain thingswhich pertain in a special way
to the laity, both men and women, by reason of their condition
(11:48):
and mission.
Due to the specialcircumstances of our time, the
foundations of this doctrinemust be more thoroughly examined
, for their pastors know howmuch the laity contribute to the
welfare of the entire church.
They also know that they werenot ordained by Christ to take
(12:12):
upon themselves alone the entiresalvific mission of the church
toward the world.
In other words, and let mepause right there, in other
words, this is sort of a way inwhich the church, very subtly,
is addressing the idea ofclericalism, that the priest has
to do everything, or the priestwants to do everything, or the
priest wants to be in charge ofeverything.
(12:33):
And so here we're having the,the council fathers say that
they know that they were notordained by christ to do it all
by themselves, and so that theyneed the participation, then, of
the laity.
So then, continuing on, heyBertha, on the contrary, they
(12:53):
understand that it is theirnoble duty, the pastors, the
bishops and the clergy, toshepherd the faithful and to
recognize their ministries andcharisms, so so that all,
according to their proper rules,may cooperate in this common
undertaking with one mind, forwe must all practice the truth
(13:16):
in love and so grow up in allthings in him who is head Christ
, all things in him who is headChrist, for from him the whole
body being closely joined andknit together through every
joint of the system, accordingto the functioning and due
measure of each single partderives its increase to the
(13:38):
building up of itself.
In love, Okay, in love, okay.
So just a little unpacking ofthis, not too much but just
unpacking of this here.
the council fathers are sort ofrecalling Paul's image of the
body, like they're differentmembers, right, and each member
(14:01):
of the body has its thing to do.
(14:34):
And so the hand does one thing,the foot does another thing, and
so here this is a way in whichthe council fathers are trying
to remind the clergy, thereligious and the laity that we
each overstep our role.
Right, because sometimes youget some personalities that get
over, they're overly charged oroverly controlling.
Right, and so they want to takeon the role of Jesus.
Right, they want to be theSavior, the Messiah, complex.
Right, and so what happens isthat becomes a countersign of
actually what we're supposed tobe doing.
(14:55):
Right, to work together.
So part of the whole idea of thedignity of the human person,
the dignity of everyone that isbaptized, is, again, we all
receive a mission through thegrace of baptism, and so what is
our mission?
So we have to be careful thatwe recognize and respect the
role that each one of us iscalled to, and there is
(15:17):
obviously some interdependenceand there is some cooperation or
collaboration, but each one hasits own, each vocation has its
own role in the body, and sosometimes there's confusion in
the body because people within aparticular role are trying to
(15:39):
or are bleeding over into otherroles that are not theirs.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Okay, does that make sense?
Yeah, no, it does, and it makesme think a lot kind of I
wouldn't, I wouldn't call usinfluential or anything right
it's thinking about people onthe internet.
Yeah, there's a lot of peoplewho have very, very strong
(16:05):
opinions and oh yeah, and use aplatform for that yeah, and and
we really want to just encouragepeople to think and consider
and educate themselves right andone another.
Excuse me, so it just it waskind of making me think about
that, but it also made me wonderabout that the health of the
(16:28):
church when people so so likethis is saying the laity has a
role, the priest has a role,right, the priest even if you're
thinking kind of Old Testament,like the priest is the person
who takes care of the temple andhe's the one who administers
(16:50):
the rituals and he's the one whoprotects the scripture and all
that kind of thing.
But all the people outside ofthe temple are the ones who are
doing way more acting, but it'sdisordered when they're
listening to each other morethan they're listening to the
priest, right, or or whateverright?
And so I'm just kind ofthinking about that kind of
(17:10):
thing too.
Where, where do people gettheir information from?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
yeah, and, like I said, like we talked about the
previous episode, is that do Ihave the maturity spiritual,
emotional, psychological do Ihave the maturity necessary to
be able to consider an opposingview right?
(17:36):
Somebody disagrees with me andwhat's very disappointing is, a
lot of times what happens isthere are certain religious
people.
By religious I mean notreligious like consecrated
religious, I just mean peoplethat are pious right or devoted
(17:57):
to their faith.
What happens is they only seekout those that agree with them.
They have their bubble right,and so part of being in the
bubble is that only we're rightand everybody else is wrong,
right, and so then you're noteven willing to consider the
(18:20):
fact that you might be skewedright.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And so, which is fine .
So like, for example, if whenyou draw a graph and you start
two lines, and you start, let'ssay, there's a, there's a three
degree difference between oneline and the other line.
Well, when you're only, whenyou only draw one inch or three
inches of those two lines, it'snot very much, but if you keep
(18:44):
moving and drawing those linesout to 10, 15, 15 feet, there's
a huge difference.
Yeah, and that's what happens,for example, like the episode
the other day when I brought upthe port clears in Spain that
have decided that they don'tbelong to the church anymore and
da-da-da-da-da-da.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
I go like wow.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
So way back there, somewhere they began to be
skewed and this is where theyfind themselves.
They find themselves in aschism from the church and they
believe themselves to be thetrue church, the true believers,
the only ones, and I go like.
That is so sad, it's very sad,but it's something that can
(19:28):
happen to anybody and that's whyit's very important to be
objective, to seek to educateyourself, even if it's
uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, I think this also speaks to something we were
speaking previously about too,and how it's.
It can't be like a personalfaith or religion whatever, like
you have to be in relationshipwith one another, because if, as
a matter of fact, I would, Imight argue that the more
(20:01):
relationships you have, the lessopportunity you have for that
sounding for that echo chamberto develop around you.
Yes, and you might be moreprone to realize that you're a
few degrees off before you're 15feet down the road, right,
right.
Yeah, it also makes me think,and maybe we'll get to it or
(20:26):
maybe we'll just need to talkabout it in another episode but
the importance of obedience.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
I don't think our culture understands obedience
well, no, they don't, they don'tvalue it, and it comes from
again.
It comes from a very I don'twant to say an honest place and
I don't want to say we come byit honestly.
Again, it comes from a very Idon't want to say an honest
place and I don't want to say wecome by it honestly.
But in the United States,because of the culture of
(20:58):
independence, right, and becauseit is a culture of sort of
democracy, I think we have areally difficult time
understanding the value ofobedience, right, because it's
for everybody else but me, right, yeah, and so it is hard, and
so I think part of it too issometimes, when I see something
(21:19):
on YouTube and sometimes it's ofa religious nature sometimes I
go like oh, my word Reallysometimes I go like, oh, my word
, right, really it might besomebody that is very pious,
(21:39):
somebody that is appealing to aparticular brand of Christianity
or Catholicism, right.
And so it just makes me very sadto go like, wow, is that really
Wow, really.
So anyway, this is part of whatthis is sort of like the
caution that is seen in number30 years.
The church is trying toemphasize that there are proper
roles, and so we need to knowwhat our role is.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
And again the fact that I am not the pope, I am not
the archbishop, I am not youknow whatever.
And so, okay, you're the onethat has to stand before God and
my only thing is okay, I haveto listen to you and okay, so I
will obey you, even if it'sdifficult or I don't understand
it or I think it's crazy.
Okay, so I have to trust in thegrace of obedience, right.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, I think Padre Pio is a good example of some of
the things he went through andhe was obedient and he's like
you're the boss.
Yeah.
You know, and it worked outbecause God has a plan in all
this?
Crazy.
So anyway, I'll let you getback to it.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Okay, no, thank you for that.
Yeah, that's something thatHumanity, humanity.
So, um, here I'm going to takea line from as we get to the
laity right and start digginginto the chapter and laity.
So what I'm going to do here isI'm going to take a line from
(22:59):
chapter two on the people of god.
That kind of, I believe,summarizes to a degree the
essential point of that chapter,chapter two on the people of
God, and that I'm taking thisfrom number 10.
Therefore, all the disciples ofChrist, persevering in prayer
and praising God, should presentthemselves as a living
(23:24):
sacrifice, holy and pleasing toGod Everywhere on earth.
They must bear witness to Christand give an answer to those who
seek an account of that hope ofeternal life which is in them.
Okay now, the reason I broughtthis out is because our faith is
(23:49):
not just about going to church,going to Mass, receiving
communion, receiving thesacraments that we celebrate is
(24:14):
that I present myself to God,the Father, with the bread and
the wine to be consecrated andto be offered, that I become a
living sacrifice, a livingvehicle for God's grace in the
world.
And a lot of people are missingthat.
They're getting stuck on thedevotional, pious aspect and
then not really askingthemselves the hard question
where am I in my conversion?
Am I giving witness?
(24:35):
Am I truly being a livingsacrifice that is holy and
pleasing to God?
And that's very important,because sometimes we get stuck
in the affect, we get stuck inthe sentimentality of things and
we can get stuck in the pietyof things.
Again, piety is a good thing,true piety is a good thing, it's
(24:57):
a virtue.
But sometimes what can happenis you get caught in the
emotional thing, you get caughtin the self-consolation, in the
look at me, I'm being good kindof thing, and you forget the
sacrifice aspect of it, that Godis asking of me to practice
heroic virtue in some situationsthat I find uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, I think in our culture too, we get caught up in
the performative aspect ofeverything.
Yes, Like the productive, did Iproduce this thing.
Because, that's the only way Ihave value you know.
So did I check the boxes?
Did I pray my rosary today?
Yes, Did I go to mass today?
Yes, Did I go to confessiononce a year, or whatever?
(25:45):
The minimum is right?
Did I check all the boxesinstead of, like you're saying,
reflecting back on where Iactually am?
Because I think where you are.
I mean, wouldn't you ratherhave a whole room full of guys
that are really really bad atliving out their faith but
really really want to?
Yes, Than a bunch of guys thatdo it perfectly but it's just
(26:09):
dead?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, it's performance, right, performative
, exactly.
Yeah, no, I agree, I agree.
I'd rather talk to somebodywho's down in the dirt and
rolled up their sleeves andcovered in blood, sweat and
tears Okay, we can talk rightInstead of somebody that's
worried about scrupulosity andperformance and all this other
(26:33):
stuff, which is a very difficultplace to be.
But they need to get past thatand really look at you.
Know what is the conversionthat God is calling me to?
Right, and can I allow myselfto be convicted by the Holy
Spirit, would you say?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
the best way to get to that is prayer?
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Oh, definitely, it's presenting yourself.
And again, see, now we gothrough this Give me 20.
So it depends what is prayer?
If prayer is just rote, theneventually the Holy Spirit will
break through.
But to actually sit in silenceand to just reflect on and think
(27:14):
about Christ, his sacredhumanity, what this means, the
Christ event, and what it meansto me and what he's invited me
into, yeah, that's going tohappen.
The conversion will happen thatway.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah, and we've got some great episodes on prayer
and relationship for people togo check out if they haven't
heard them.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yes, yes, please do so anyway, getting back to this
idea, then, trying to recap alittle bit of the previous
chapters as we talk about laity,so this whole idea of, through
baptism, that we each one of usthat is baptized shares in the
(27:54):
different, what's known, whatthey call the Munera, the Munera
of Christ priest, prophet andking.
Right so the Munera comes fromthe Latin, which has to do with
duty and obligation.
Right from the Latin, which hasto do with duty and obligation.
Right so the duty, obligation,responsibility of Jesus as
priest, prophet and king.
(28:14):
And because we're baptized intoJesus Christ, we also share in
those duties and obligations ofpriest, prophet and king,
according, then, to our state inlife, according to our vocation
.
So you have that, throughbaptism, in addition to the
baptismal call or the baptismalduty of priest, prophet and king
, each individual withincommunity lives out this sharing
(28:41):
in a different way, accordingto their state of life or
vocation.
The clergy are differentbecause of ordination.
The religious are differentbecause of their public vows or
promises to live by theevangelical councils of poverty,
chastity and obedience.
So, then, that whichdistinguishes the laity from the
(29:02):
clergy and the consecratedreligious is the very nature of
the secular character of theirlife, as is explicated in
Numbers 31 and 35 of thedocument and we'll talk about 31
in just a minute.
The principal characteristic ofthe laity is they're living in
(29:26):
the midst of the world that isin need of renewal, and that
that very secularity of thelaity, through the life, work
and mission of the laity, ismore and more brought into
harmony with the teachings ofChrist.
Okay, we'll come back to thatin just a minute.
(29:48):
Let me read number 31.
But the laity, by their vocation, seek the kingdom of God by
engaging in temporal affairs andby ordering them according to
the plan of God.
They live in the world, that is, in each and in all of the
(30:10):
secular professions andoccupations.
They live in the ordinarycircumstances of family and
social life from which the veryweb of their existence is woven.
They are called there by Godthat, by exercising their proper
function in the world and ledby the Spirit of the Gospel,
(30:32):
they may work for thesanctification of the world from
within, as a leaven.
In this way, they may makeChrist known to others,
especially by the testimony of alife resplendent in faith, hope
and charity.
Therefore, since they aretightly bound up in all types of
(30:55):
temporal affairs.
It is their special task toorder and to throw light upon
these affairs in such a way thatthey may come into being and
then continually increase,according to Christ.
Okay, so then, part of themission, then, of the secular or
(31:21):
the laity, the lay person, theLaos, the people of God,
no-transcript, to be a livingsacrifice where they find
(31:43):
themselves, that they bring totheir situation gospel values.
It doesn't mean that you imposeyourself on others.
It means, by the way that youlive your life, you are being an
example and therefore you arepreparing the society, the world
(32:05):
, to receive the gospel when itis time, or when God decides
it's time for them, or invitesthem into the gospel, right Into
faith.
And so I think this is veryimportant, because sometimes
what can happen is being the dosociety, society.
A lot of people want to go outon mission, go out and preach,
(32:30):
go convert the Baptist or theBuddhists or whatever, right,
which, okay, fine, there's aplace for that.
But in your workplace, at theTarget at the, at the Target, at
the Walmart, at the Costco, atthe Whole Foods?
(32:51):
Wherever you find yourself, areyou conducting yourself in a
way that would manifest that youare a believer, a disciple?
Do you respect the dignity ofthose people around you?
Are you another Christ that iscapable of being considerate and
(33:16):
compassionate and understanding?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I saw this thing this one time, and what you're
saying makes me think of this,and I can't remember where I
heard it or saw it.
So I apologize, but could yoube put on trial for being
Christian without having eversaid that you're Christian?
Speaker 1 (33:32):
There you are.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
So you never actually said it, but could you be put
on trial and convicted of beingChristian from just the way you
live your life?
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Right, yeah, the way you interact with others, the
way you live your life.
Right, yeah, the way youinteract with others.
And so there's something tothink about, because I think
this is a much harder thing todo than to stand on a street
corner and preach about theheretics, and that they need to
learn how to pray all themysteries of the rosary, I mean.
(34:03):
And the rosary is wonderful andgreat, and the stations of the
cross are wonderful and great,and they make sense to us who
believe and use them withdevotion, but sometimes what
happens is the laity, or notjust the laity, throughout the
whole church, people getconfused as to what their proper
function and role is.
(34:23):
So, as a and this is what Ifind very disturbing at times is
sometimes, when I see clergy orreligious or people who put on
the robe of religious authority,instead of teaching, instead of
catechizing, they areexpounding their point of view,
(34:49):
their political, religiouspreference, right, instead of
catechizing, right?
So okay, let me jump down tonumber 32.
So okay, let me, let me jumpdown to number 32.
(35:09):
If, therefore, in the church,everyone does not proceed by the
same path and others, in otherwords, we all have different
vocations.
If, therefore, in the church.
Everyone does not proceed bythe same path.
Nevertheless, all are called tosanctity.
So here already we havesomething that's going to bring
us into the next chapter theuniversal call of sanctity.
Right, all are called tosanctity and have received an
(35:54):
equal privilege of faith throughthe justice of God.
And here is something that Iwant to share from this right
All share a true equality withregard to the dignity and to the
activity common to all thefaithful anger, the condemnation
(36:22):
, sometimes even the vileness ofpeople in a religious role,
condemning and judging and, youknow, basically casting others
into the deepest parts of hell.
Right, and I go like, really Doyou?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
really have to do this?
Can't you just teach?
Don't judge, don't condemn.
People are smart enough to drawconclusions.
Why can't you just teach?
Speaker 1 (37:03):
So you're not a fan of the fire and brimstone
homilies.
No, I mean, you have toproclaim the truth of that there
is a hell and that there is theconsequence of my choice.
But I believe the more youtreat people as adults, the more
they're going to mature.
You just lay it out for them.
Okay, these are theconsequences, this is the choice
(37:24):
.
Okay, and going back to the OldTestament, I set before you
life and death you choose.
I ask you to choose life, and ifyou want to choose death, okay,
that's between you and God welland right.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Jesus talks more about hell than anyone else, I
think in the entire.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Bible yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
And I agree.
I think if you are acting in away that is deserving of
people's trust, then as youspeak the truth, as you speak
the truth, then the Holy Spiritis going to be way more
(38:08):
convicting than you could everbe anyway, even on your best day
.
Yes, yes.
So just let—and that's kind ofwhat we're talking about.
Everybody has a role.
Let—you're not Jesus, let Jesusbe Jesus.
Let God do the godly things,and you do your thing, you know.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
But it's also not an excuse to not act or not speak
the truth either.
No, I agree, I mean, but Ithink part of it is this I think
the culture of anger that wehave in the United States and
probably in the world, is peopletap into that.
And again, if you're looking toget a larger following, right,
especially if you're on socialmedia and it's about you know
(38:55):
how many followers do I haveyeah, it's easy to get into the
righteous anger thing and, youknow, into that bubble of
righteous anger andda-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
Yeah, there is a market forthat and there is those people
(39:15):
that that is what they'recultivating and that's who
they're appealing to and that iswho they do appeal to, right.
Yeah, and that's okay, that'stheir thing, right, but that's
not healthy.
Yeah, it's not a healthy thing100%.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
So you know, my wife's a teacher and I used to
be a teacher and you get a bunchof teachers together and the
easiest way to get them to startinteracting is to complain
somehow about the educationsystem and go am I right?
You know, and now everybody's.
But it's not healthy becausenone of them are teachers,
because of the things that theyhate.
And so instead, put your energyinto the wonderful things that
(39:52):
happen, because you're devotingyourself to helping these kids.
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
And again, that's what.
That's why catechesis is soimportant, that's why education
is so important, that's whybeing objective is so important,
that's why it's willing to lookat difficult and hard questions
is so important, because youknow, as the Lord himself says
in the Gospels, you know if yousay hello only to those who say
hello to you, or you love onlythose who love you, so you care.
(40:21):
Anyway, sorry for the rant.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
No, I'm not sorry for the rant, you're just doing
them push-ups today.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Okay, so number 33 of Lumen Gentium, the lay
apostolate is a participation inthe salvific mission of the
church itself and I have thatunderlined because that is very
(40:55):
important by the lay persondoing what they can at the job
site, in the family, at home, atthe Costco, at the Sam's,
whatever, by trying to live adignified life and being
respectful and kind andconsiderate and polite to others
.
That that is already aparticipation in the salvific
(41:18):
mission of the church and that'simportant.
You make a difference by theway that you interact with
others.
You make a difference with yourattitude and the way you
(41:38):
consider others or don'tconsider others.
Okay, so that's just the firstsentence from number 33.
So, through their baptism andconfirmation, all are
commissioned to that apostolateby the Lord himself.
We are all missionaries.
Moreover, by the sacraments,especially Holy Eucharist, the
(42:01):
charity toward God and man,which is the soul of the
apostolate, is communicated andnourished.
Okay, let me go back to that.
What is the soul of theapostolate?
For anyone in the church?
It is the charity towards Godand man, love of God and love of
(42:21):
neighbor.
That is essential.
Okay, now the laity are calledin a special way to make the
church present and operative inthose places and circumstances
where only through them can itbecome the salt of the earth.
Thus, every layman, in virtueof the very gifts bestowed upon
him, is at the same time awitness and a living instrument
(42:44):
of the mission of the church.
So, then, the special vocationof the laity lays in Christ's
call to them to make the churchpresent and fruitful in those
places and circumstances whereit is only through them that she
(43:06):
, the church, can become thesalt of the earth.
It's not the job of the priest,it's not the job of the
religious.
We have our place within thecommunity of faith, and it is
our job to catechize, teach,help, guide, give example to the
(43:28):
laity, so that the laity can goout into the world and fulfill
their mission, their call.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yeah, something that's always been interesting
to me about that is, therelationship between the laity
and the clergy is where do youthink our bishops come from?
Where do you think our priestscome from?
Right from the lady exactlyyeah, if we don't have a healthy
, thriving catechized laity,then what do you think our
(43:59):
future priests and bishops andall that?
Speaker 1 (44:01):
are just all vocations period.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
So continuing on then .
So the this is a quote fromEphesians they conduct
themselves as children of thepromise and thus, strong in
faith and in hope, they make themost of the present and then,
quoting Romans, and withpatience await the glory that is
(44:31):
to come.
Let them not then hide in thedepths of their hearts, but even
in the program of their secularlife.
Let them express by a continualconversion and by wrestling
against the world rulers of thisdarkness, against the spiritual
forces of wickedness.
That's from Lumen Gentium,number 35.
(44:54):
So they're saying it's difficult, yes, it's difficult, you're
wrestling with the world,against the world, to try to be
this light, this salt, to livethis faith, hope and love, to
live this glory of God, which islove of God and love of
(45:15):
neighbor.
Yes, it is hard, yes, it isdifficult, but the church offers
you the sacraments as a way tostrengthen yourself for this
mission.
So when you don't strengthenyourself, when you don't feed
yourself, then this missionbecomes very, very difficult and
at times that's why some peopleget tired, that's why some
(45:38):
people walk away, away.
It's because they're not reallytaking care of themselves and
the needs that they have to livethis consecration, this mission
, right.
So I have a quote here fromJordan Allman, who is a
(46:00):
religious, he's a Dominican, areligious spiritual writer.
He's a religious.
He's a Dominican, a religiousspiritual writer.
So a lay person in the churchis a baptized Christian who is
deputed like deputized, who isdeputed to renew the temporal
and secular order according toChristian principles.
It's okay, let me stop there.
(46:22):
Principles, it's okay, let mestop there.
So then, what Jordan Almond issaying is you have been
deputized to renew the world.
That is your.
You have been deputized to thataccording to Christian
principles.
You are to renew the worldaccording to Christian
principles.
So how is your deputation goingthen?
(46:43):
Right, what am I doing for thator towards that?
It is especially incumbent onthe laity to renew family life
and civil society, as well asthe various secular professions.
Can you imagine what wouldhappen to Wall Street if they
(47:05):
started living according to thegospel, or Madison Avenue or the
advertisers if they would startliving according to the gospel
values?
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Yeah, can you imagine how all of the voting processes
at all the different stages ofgovernment, local, city, state,
county, whatever, right, it'd beamazing.
(47:41):
But we talked about that onceupon a time too.
What did you say?
Because I didn't know what itwas.
I hadn't heard about it Makinga Christian state, or something
like that oh Christiannationalism.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I guess slippery slope,father, you got to be careful.
Be careful what you ask for.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
That is very different from this.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
That is very different from this.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
That is very different from this.
Okay, so in Numbers 34 and 35,there's an exhortation to the
laity to enter into theirmission with zeal and courage.
So if you're interested I hopeyou are interested go and read
Numbers 34 and 35 of LumenGentium.
So let me jump to 36.
And 35, so let me jump to 36.
(48:29):
The faithful, therefore, mustlearn the deepest meaning and
the value of all creation, allcreation.
The faithful, therefore, mustlearn the deepest meaning and
the value of all creation, aswell as its role, creation's
role in the harmonious praise ofGod.
They must assist each other tolive holier lives, even in their
(48:53):
daily occupations.
In this way, the world may bepermeated by the Spirit of
Christ and it may moreeffectively fulfill its purpose
in justice, charity and peace.
The laity have the principalrole in the overall fulfillment
of this duty.
Therefore, by their competencein secular training and by their
(49:15):
activity elevated from withinby the grace of Christ, let them
vigorously contribute theireffort so that created goods may
be perfected by human labor,technical skill and civic
culture for the benefit of all,according to the design of the
Creator and the light of HisWord.
Moreover, let the Lady also, bytheir combined efforts, remedy
(49:38):
the customs and conditions ofthe world.
Conditions of the world if theyare an inducement to sin, so
that they all may be conformedto the norms of justice and may
favor the practice of virtuerather than hinder it.
So if we see that there is somesort of cultural value that is
an inducement to sin, we arethen called to remedy that
(50:03):
situation.
Okay, okay, we're almosttowards the end of chapter.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Yeah, we kept getting off some tangents.
Sorry guys.
I think we can finish this oneup, though.
Sorry people.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Okay.
So Article 37 speaks of that aperson's right to help in this
mission and formation for thismission, yet also, in humble
obedience, to accept thedecisions of those who have a
greater role in the guidance ofthe Church.
Their pastors are reminded torespect and help the layperson
feel empowered to engage intheir proper apostolate.
(50:44):
That's number 37.
So now let me jump to 38.
Each individual layman muststand before the world as a
witness to the resurrection andthe life of the Lord Jesus and a
symbol of the living God.
All the laity as a community,and each one according to his
ability, must nourish the worldwith spiritual fruits.
(51:07):
They must diffuse in the worldthat spirit which animates the
poor, the meek, the peacemakerswhom the Lord in the gospel
proclaimed as blessed.
In a word, I love that.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
The St John Chrysostom guy, like he's got
some interesting thoughts.
Yes, he does interestingthoughts.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
Yes, he does so.
Now let me take this quote fromthe decree on the apostolate of
the laity Apostolicumactuositatem.
This is number two, on theapostolate of the laity.
In the church, there isdiversity of ministry but unity
(52:04):
of mission To the Apostles andtheir successors.
Christ has entrusted the officeof teaching, sanctifying and
governing in his name and by hispower.
But the laity are made to sharein the priestly prophetic and
kingly office of Christ.
In the priestly prophetic andkingly office of Christ, they
have therefore, in the churchand in the world, their own
(52:26):
assignment in the mission of thewhole people of God, the
characteristic of the lay statebeing a life led in the midst of
the world and of secularaffairs.
Laymen are called by God tomake of their apostolate through
the vigor of their Christianspirit Again, 11 in the world.
(52:49):
Okay, so Pope Paul VI expandedthe role and functions of the
laity with what is called therepression of the minor orders.
Right, so you used to have theminor minor orders which were
reserved for seminarians.
Right to be ordained, you hadporter, you had all these
(53:10):
different minor orders right,according to the steps up
towards priesthood.
So, with the repression of theminor orders, and redefined them
as ministries, not onlyreserved for the candidates for
the sacrament of orders, butalso for the ministries of the
laity.
Permanent lector and acolyteare still reserved for
(53:32):
candidates to sacred orders, butthe laity can serve as lectors
and acolytes on a temporarybasis.
Okay, now, I have a quote herefrom Jacques Leclerc, who was a
Belgian Roman Catholictheologian and priest.
The laity, formed to the divinelife of the Church, have to
(53:55):
transform the world, and theywill transform it if they are
genuinely Christian.
One of the fundamentaltragedies of Christianity as it
has developed in history is thatthe laity have not carried out
their task.
And perhaps this tragedy simplyfollows from another equally
(54:21):
fundamental, namely that theclergy have not fulfilled theirs
.
The clergy were to form thelaity and they have not done so
to a sufficient degree.
Then, for the lack of properlyformed laymen.
They have tried to take theplace of the laity and have done
so badly.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
That's exactly what we were talking about earlier
with influencers and stuff.
Yeah, and it's funny because Ihad forgotten about this when we
were saying that at thebeginning.
This is exactly what happened.
This guy was in the late 18,.
Well, he was born in the late1800s.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:57):
Yeah, oh, like that alone is, I think, something for
everybody to take to prayer.
Have they been well-formed?
And if well, I guess the firstthing is to ask the Holy Spirit
(55:18):
to help you to see right, To bevery honest and genuine with
your evaluation of yourself andyour situation right.
Have I been well catechized?
Have I been well formed?
If not, how do I do that andhow do I support those who are
supposed to be so?
It's not.
Let me go tell you, father, howyou can better catechize
(55:40):
everybody.
It's how do I support you indoing what your mission is Right
?
And then, of course, that'sgoing to make that feedback loop
where we're going to get betterpriests and bishops because we
have a better laity, and allthat yes.
(56:04):
So there, so there man, there'sa, there's a lot in this, in
this uh, chapter, to to thinkabout.
I understand now why you I'msure, um, what was it?
Chapters two and three, withthe ones that we skipped?
Yeah, um, I'm sure they'rethere.
I know they're full of goodstuff that probably make this
(56:26):
even more impactful andinsightful and everything.
But I can see why you wanted tospend the time on this one that
you did, because this is goingto impact our next.
This is this informs, this setsthe stage for the next episode,
the universal call to holiness.
Yes, and all of these conceptsare going to help us properly
(56:50):
place and will properlyunderstand Mary's place.
Speaker 1 (56:54):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (56:58):
Oh, it's good stuff.
It's good stuff.
Speaker 1 (57:00):
I love my faith, me too.
Speaker 2 (57:04):
Well, this one's long , so we'll keep goodbyes short.
Father, I hope you have a safetrip.
I hope you get back safely.
Thanks for this, everybody,thanks for joining us.
We'll see you next time, bye,bye.
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