August 30, 2024 • 55 mins
In this episode, Father Stephen and John discuss the centrality of Christ in the Church and its mission as a sacrament of God's love. Drawing insights from Sacrosanctum Concilium and theologians like St. Cyprian, they explore how the Church, as the new Eve born from Christ's side, aims to unify believers.
They also tackle the complexities of getting involved in church communities, especially for introverts. The conversation sheds light on the challenges and rewards of community engagement, referencing the ecclesiology and pneumatology from the Second Vatican Council's documents like Lumen Gentium. Finally, they wrap up with a thoughtful discussion on navigating forgiveness and self-protection within faith communities, offering insights on personal growth, communal faith, and the journey toward unity and understanding.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to our podcast friends.
Thank you so much for listening.
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Thank you and God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me and myfriend, the Friar Father Stephen
Sanchez, a Discalced CarmelitePriest.
Good morning, father.
Good morning, uh-oh, hold on, Imay have done that wrong.
I think Bertha's here again.
Oh no, she heard me.
That cat's so funny.
If I turn and look at her,she'll just sit there and look
(00:49):
at me Like if she's across theroom.
But if I blow her a kiss shestarts meowing.
I don't know if she likes it ornot, but she's like meow.
And then she'll come likeattack me with a laugh.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I told you to stop doing that yeah.
So what were?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
you doing out in Emory again.
You had, it was a teaching, no,you were doing mass.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
No, it was a teaching , it was a conference.
Okay, and the priest there inEmory and St John the Evangelist
Catholic Church out in Emory,which is out in the middle, yeah
, I was going to say Of pastures, right, just all pastures.
It's a very rural church, smallchurch, and the church was
(01:34):
basically destroyed a couple ofyears ago by a tornado and so
they're trying to rebuild thesanctuary, and so they have all
their services in their I don'tknow what you call that building
activities building ormultipurpose building or
whatever.
Anyway, so the Knights ofColumbus were sponsoring a men's
retreat.
And so the pastor there, fatherMichael Ledesma, used to be one
(01:57):
of my directees when he was atHoly Trinity Seminary, and so
then he reached out to me andasked me if I would be willing
to give a conference to thisretreat of men.
And it's entitled EucharisticWarriors, so basically it's
about entering deeper into themystery of the Eucharist and
(02:18):
exploring that.
So it was sponsored by theKnights of Columbus and so there
was three speakers.
I was the first speaker and soI drove out there to give the
conference, and so it's about anhour and a half a little bit
more than that from Dallas.
So I drove out there early inthe morning to get there by a
little bit before 8 to be thereand make sure I found my way
(02:42):
there and got there to the rightplace and didn't get lost in
the middle of a lake orsomething.
And so I went out there.
And so when I looked it up onGoogle the day before, like okay
, let me look it up on Google,right?
So I looked it up on GoogleMaps and all it shows is this
destroyed building right, it'safter the tornado.
Everything is torn down andscattered and there's everything
(03:03):
.
I'm like, so is this going tobe outside, I better take a lot
of water with me or something orother.
But anyway, and so obviouslyGoogle Maps hasn't updated their
maps of the photo of the place,and so I gave a talk on Necrist
, so that's what that was, and Icame back and heard confessions
(03:27):
afterwards and then there wasabout 30 men and then came back,
got back to Dallas, I got about130.
Then I had to get ready for theparish masses, parish
confessions.
I had the vigil mass last nightand then had the mass this
morning at nine.
So trying to get all that done,trying to all get together, was
(03:49):
a little, a little Hectic.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yes, Anyway, that's what I was doing in Emory.
Yeah, yeah, I just looked it upon Apple Maps and it doesn't
look too destroyed on this one.
Okay, but it's a little town,it's 1,200 people yeah, tiny,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
So that's where I was .
Speaker 2 (04:17):
If you had to pick between a gigantic place like
Dallas or a little bitty out inthe middle of nowhere, what
would you pick?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Well, I don't know, I'd be hard-pressed right,
because I like where we are here, because basically they leave
us alone.
Nobody knows where we're at.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
It's very hidden.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
So I like it here.
The problem with a smallcommunity is that everybody
knows everybody's business rightit's like that would be
difficult right um.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
But anyway, I don't know, I don't know yeah, there's
, because even I think withsmall places, small towns, like
where the castle is out of MaryLake yeah, it's in a little
small town kind of thing.
You know it's just south ofLittle Rock but something about
(05:13):
that feels even more secluded,like you think of the European
monastery on top of somemountain peak or something like
that.
That's kind of what Mary Lakehas that feeling to it because
it's so secluded, and so I think, yeah, you all have a nice
location in Dallas because youhave access to anything that you
(05:35):
might need Medical food,whatever Libraries, things like
that that you wouldn't have in asmall town.
So I think, yeah, I would haveto pick either something very
secluded like Mary Lake orsomething in a place like Dallas
.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
The in-between I think is rough, yeah, because
nobody knows really where we'reat in Dallas.
I mean, like how do you knowy'all were here Like yes, thank
you, yep.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Well, and it's so funny that there might be
something that we should talkabout one of these days, because
you, um, just when you're here,carmelites it doesn't feel like
you're in dallas.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
It just really doesn't yeah, because it's it's
separated.
We have a nice piece ofproperty here, uh, and it's kind
of visually secluded fromeverything else.
And so it doesn't really feellike you're in Dallas when
you're here.
You forget that you're inDallas.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, unless you see the skyline.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Oh, you got a visitor .
Speaker 2 (06:36):
True, oh, you should.
Oh, yeah, that's Bertha, she'llbe back, she'll be back.
But, yeah, yeah, so, likecarmelites are kind of funny
creatures too, because you'refriars but you're contemplative
and so you have to.
Well, I guess it depends on onthe necessity, like the need of
your, your house, right, youeither are very self-sufficient
(06:58):
because you've got some kind ofenterprise that keeps you guys
sustained, or you have to go out, right, but you have to balance
that with the quiet solitude.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yes, the contemplative aspect.
Yes, exactly.
So the thing is we are friarswho live in monasteries, not
friars who live in friaries, andwe're not monks who live in
monasteries, we're friars wholive in monasteries.
So that's part of the weirdnessof it is that we still hold on
to our monastic roots from theEast, where we started, so
(07:29):
interesting.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
It's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Tertium quid.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
All right, well, we are back on Lumen Gentium Intro
Right Well, chapter one, I think, the last thing.
Yeah, we got through on LumenGentium intro, right Well
chapter one, I think the lastthing we were on chapter one.
Yeah, so we're going to starttalking today about the primacy
of Christ and I still am just,it's just so silly to me that
(08:00):
we're having to do all this sowe can talk about something else
.
Well, it's silly in a good way,like it tickles my mind,
because so many people askquestions and they want the
one-line response.
They want this is the thingthat answers my question.
Right, and with our faith,that's not possible.
It's so insufficient to justsay, well, here's the answer,
(08:23):
because if you're really beingthoughtful and you really want
to know the answer, thenwhatever you're given, you have
to go.
Well, what does that mean?
Right, right, right.
Okay, so we've talked about thechurch and now?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
We talked about the Holy Spirit.
This is still chapter one ofthe Mystery of the Church.
Yes, and we talked about howthe Holy Spirit dwells in the
church.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
right, yes, and how the.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Holy Spirit sustains the communion within the church.
So we talked also about therenewal of ecclesiology, sort of
like the study of church orcommunity, or, uh, basilia, uh,
so all that, those are allthings, and I mentioned briefly
the, the influence of JohannOtto Moeller's uh understanding
(09:18):
of uh church right and how he isa great influence right.
He's from the school of theuniversity of Tübingen in.
Germany.
So then we're moving on to thenext section, or the next part
of chapter one is the primacy ofChrist.
The church, or the conciliarfathers needed to reemphasize
(09:44):
this.
The church or the conciliarfathers needed to reemphasize
this to declare probably to makesure that people don't
misunderstand Catholics right,but the primacy of Christ in the
church.
In fact, it's interesting.
I just thought of this right nowand I was preaching at St
(10:12):
Anne's several years ago.
There was a one of themusicians, uh, was not a
catholic and was there with theministry of music playing, and
so I was preaching and aftermass, went up and to thank the
musicians, as I usually do so,to go thank the musicians and
stuff, and so they introduced meto this young man who was not a
Catholic, right, and so I saidoh, welcome, how did you think
(10:33):
of our service and what faithtradition do you come from?
He said I have never been to aservice where people talk so
much about Jesus.
This is refreshing.
Yes, this is what it's about.
It's about Jesus.
So, anyway, the primacy ofChrist.
So, as we look at the documents,or as the document is
(11:00):
developing in this chapter oneagain, the primary idea or the
concept that is trying to betaught, catechized, is that
Christ is the primary sacrament.
So what does that mean?
So we know that the sacramentis a visible sign of an
invisible reality.
And so then, if this is true,then Jesus, who is the visible
sign of the invisible reality,is the primary sacrament, just
(11:22):
as he is the gospel, right.
So Jesus reveals himself as thesource of redeeming grace, but
also he reveals himself to beGod, the Father's love.
That's who Jesus is, theincarnation of this love.
To the extent that the church is, in Christ, a reflection of
(11:44):
that same light continues toshine forth for all humanity.
And again, connecting this tothe indwelling of the Holy
Spirit and how the Holy Spiritcalls us together in unity and
stuff so this is part of thatsame truth is that we, as church
, are called to be thereflection of the light of
(12:05):
Christ to all of humanity, sothat when the church imitates
the self-emptying love of Christ, she, the church, becomes a
sacrament of that same love.
The church, the community ofbelievers, is called to be an
instrument of this saving lovein the world.
(12:29):
So, yes, christ is the primarysacrament, but we, as the body
of Christ, as the bride ofChrist, having the spirit of the
risen Lord dwelling in us anduniting us to Christ, then we
are called to be this sacramentfor the world, and so that's one
of the questions that has to becontinuously re-asked is are we
(12:57):
being a sacrament of love forthe world right?
So, that's something that wealways need to sort of ask
ourselves and convict ourselvesof.
And so, in SacrosanctumConcilium, on the Reformer, the
Liturgy, on the ConstitutionalLiturgy of the Church, number
five in Sacrosanctum Conciliustells us that, for it was from
(13:21):
the sight of Christ, as he sleptthe sleep of death upon the
cross, that there came forth thewondrous sacrament of the whole
church.
Okay, so this is then the imageof Christ as the new Adam, the
(13:43):
bride of Christ, the new Adam,the bride of Christ, so the
church being the new Eve.
And this is where it getslayers and layers of confusing
images, right?
So the church, then, is the newEve that is born from the sight
of Christ.
But just as Christ is the newAdam and the church is the new
Eve, christ is the new Adam andthe church is the new Eve.
(14:04):
Now, the new Eve is also thebride of Christ, just as Eve was
the bride of Adam.
And so this is where thatimagery goes, and we talked
about typology once, right?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
So this is kind of the idea of typology again.
Yeah, and at the end of ourlast episode, moeller, is it
Moeller?
Is that how you say his name,or?
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Moeller yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Moeller.
Moeller was saying how he wasconsidering that the church is
the continuation of theincarnation.
Yes and so.
Yeah, it is interesting all thelayers, because you have to ask
yourself as an individual, butthen the church has to ask
itself as the whole organism.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
And we have to respond individually and as a
community.
Correct, and that's just soeasy.
So not a problem at all.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
So I have a quote from Gilarditz in his book on
the Second Vatican Council.
So this is a quote from hisbook.
For this reason St Cyprian, thethird century bishop of
Carthage, could refer to thechurch as the sacrament of unity
(15:19):
and as sacrament of salvation.
The expression sacrament ofunity is taken up first in the
dogmatic constitution on thechurch, or Lumen Gentium, in
Numbers 9, number 48, and Number59.
Those are those paragraphnumbers.
Also in the pastoralconstitution on the church in
(15:40):
the modern world, or Gaudium etSpes, in Paragraph Number 45,
and in the decree on the Churchin the Modern World, or Gaudium
et Spes, in paragraph number 45,and in the Decree on the
Church's Missionary Activity, inparagraph 1.
So the unity is not just theunity between all those of us
still in spatio-temporal reality, but includes those who have
(16:04):
preceded us, marked with thesign of faith this whole idea of
communion of saints.
So this unity, is not just usgoing to church together, or all
the diocese of the worldtogether, but all of us, those
of us in what we call the church, militant with the church
triumphant, with the saintsright and the church suffering
(16:24):
the souls in purgatory.
So then, the action of theliturgy is understood as the
work of the whole body of ChristAgain going back to the whole
idea of the primacy of Christand the liturgy cannot be
privatized.
(16:44):
In other words, we should notthink of the liturgy as
something that I am doing or mycommunity is doing or I'm doing
in this church or in this smallchapel, whatever.
We always have to think of itas the celebration of the entire
church Okay, the entire church,okay.
(17:05):
So even if I would celebrate aMass by myself, which I
sometimes do, because sometimesI find myself- alone and I want
to celebrate Mass.
I might be celebrating Massalone, but it's not really alone
.
I'm celebrating the liturgy ofthe Church, With the Church
triumphant as well.
Yes, we should always think ofit that way, right?
So then, when we live in accordwith the saving grace of God,
(17:34):
our relationships aretransformed, we are reconciled
not only to God but also to oneanother, and are enabled to live
in greater harmony with theworld around us Excuse me, the
world around us.
So, since the church is inChrist like a sacrament, or as a
sign and an instrument both ofa very closely knit union with
(17:55):
God and the unity of the wholehuman race, the council fathers
remind us of our baptismal callto be living examples of the
unity God desires for the entirehuman family.
That's the prayer that wealways pray at the Eucharist.
There's always that that we maybe one that we be united in the
(18:16):
Holy Spirit, that the HolySpirit make us one.
There's always a continuousprayer for unity right?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yeah, can I ask a question real quick, of course.
So the question is what advicewould you give to somebody who's
struggling to live out theirfaith in an interpersonal way?
(18:45):
Because you know, just likereligious, there's different
religious groups, attractdifferent types of people
because we're all so unique.
So there's some people that areintroverted, there are some
people that are very social,there are some people that are
right.
But regardless of how you are,you have to live out your faith
(19:09):
interpersonally right.
Even the hermit, to some degreeit's interpersonal.
Still, he's still a member ofthe church community.
So when somebody who is maybethey're doing a lot of studying,
they really feel like they'vegot a lot of growth going on,
maybe they're doing a lot ofstudying, they really feel like
they've got a lot of growthgoing on, but they struggle to
(19:33):
engage with the church Like whatadvice would you give to
someone like that?
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Well, that would be a very okay.
I can give a very broad answerto that hypothetical situation,
but then it would depend againon the individual.
What are the yeah, what is theroot cause in the individual?
now seeing a very broad stroke,I would say um, what is the
cause of the difficulty?
Is it expectation?
(19:58):
What are your expectations?
What is it that you'reexpecting?
Is that expectation reasonable,right?
Um, have you truly attempted toenter into dialogue or into a
community, or engage with thecommunity that you find yourself
(20:20):
worshiping?
With right, and depending whereyou're at in the church,
there's different sometimesevery mass.
Us Catholics, we're very likeall human beings.
We're creatures of habit, solike we go to the same mass all
the time, usually right.
So, for example, at St Anne's,which is a humongous parish, you
know, there's people that go tothe 10 o'clock mass that have
(20:40):
absolutely no idea of the peoplewho go to the vigil mass they
go to the 4 o'clock mass they goto, and sometimes it's been
funny that we're all together,we're in a group of people and
like, oh yeah, I go to St Anne's.
Oh yeah, what mass do you go to?
I go to the 10 o'clock mass.
I go to St Anne's.
I go to the 4 o'clock mass.
Oh yeah, I've should look intobeing a lector.
(21:11):
Maybe I should look into beingan usher.
Maybe I should look into someof the ministries there.
Maybe I should look into arethere classes that are being
offered?
Do I want to commit to maybegoing to an rcia class, even
though I may not need it?
It's always good to educateourselves.
There's different ways, right?
So it's a matter of what.
What is the expectation andwhat?
(21:32):
What is it that that you aredoing to engage with that
community, right?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
yeah, yeah.
So, like for for myself, I knowthat I like, I don't become
energized when I'm around otherpeople.
For me, being around lots ofother people makes me very tired
.
Yeah me too.
You know what I mean.
Yeah me too, so there's apersonal cost associated with
(22:01):
engaging with all those otherpeople and so, you know, I would
hope people realize that theyone, they'd realize the
importance they still need tosomehow connect.
But it doesn't have to be inthe middle of the chaos of a
mass right.
You don't have to go be alector or go be an usher or
(22:22):
something, when being around allthese people is exhausting,
like you were saying.
Maybe it's I'm going to golearn or maybe I can go
volunteer on the weekend or on aweekday or something like that
and clean or something like that.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, or you know, or go to adoration.
If they have adoration you know, join an adoration team or
something where you know youdon't have to expend yourself
socially if you don't want to anadoration team or something
where you know you don't have toexpend yourself socially if you
don't want to.
But I think part of it too, then, is to have the courage to go
to or call the office or findsomebody like, okay, is there
(22:57):
like a welcoming ministry heresomewhere?
You know there's newparishioners or I'm interested,
you know, so I'm a visitor here,and so do they have like a
little social thing afterwards.
Or you know there must besomething right.
And so part of it too is Ithink part of it too is are we
expecting the church to read mymind and my needs when it can't?
Right, it's a functioningorganism, right, and so as I try
(23:21):
to assimilate myself into thisfunctioning organism, and so as
I try to assimilate myself intothis functioning organism, I
have to be able to express andcommit to my initiating that
interchange right, or that newrelationship with that community
(23:41):
.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah, yeah, and sorry not to get us sidetracked on
that, it's just I was thinkingabout it because if the church
is a sign of Jesus, right, if weare his body.
He didn't come just to go, sitall by himself and do nothing
with other people.
He came to interact with otherpeople.
So we must find a way to engagewith others with our faith.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Right, right, and I think it's more difficult for
introverts because we find itvery difficult and challenging
to even want to engage, right,so that's hard, yeah, okay.
So getting back to the primacyof Christ, right, and this whole
(24:24):
idea of the primacy of Christ,right, and this whole idea of
the primacy of Christ, and thiswhole new ecclesiology, or the
emphasis on ecclesiology, andpneumatology and the Holy Spirit
, all these new things that theCouncil was rediscovering, the
primacy of Christ, or thisrediscovered understanding of
the primacy of Christ, attemptedto make itself known at the
(24:46):
first Vatican Council, but thebishops were uncomfortable with
the vagueness of the concept andinstead turned to the
Bellarmine, st Bellarmine,cardinal Bellarmine, his image
of the perfect society, and sothe church as perfect society.
(25:06):
And it wasn't until 1943, withPope.
Pius XII very important pope,the Pope Pius XII's encyclical
Mystici Corporis, or themystical body of Christ, right
that a more incarnationalecclesiology would be introduced
into the Church teaching.
So this would be furtherexpanded upon during the Second
(25:30):
Vatican Council.
We see this incarnationalapproach in the first paragraph
of number 8 of this document.
So number 8 of Lumen Gentiumsays Ablumen Gentium says Christ
(25:52):
, the one mediator, establishedand continually sustains here on
earth his holy church, thecommunity of faith, hope and
charity, as an entity withvisible delineation through
which he communicated truth andgrace to all, delineation
through which he communicatedtruth and grace to all.
But the society structured withhierarchical organs that'll be
(26:12):
the next chapter and themystical body of Christ are not
to be considered as tworealities.
Nor are the visible assemblyand the spiritual community, nor
the earthly church and thechurch enriched with heavenly
things.
Rather, they form one complexreality which coalesces from a
(26:38):
divine and human element.
For this reason, by no weakanalogy, it is compared to the
mystery of the incarnate word,as the assumed nature,
inseparably united to him,serves the divine word as a
living organ of salvation.
So in a similar way does thevisible social structure of the
(27:00):
church serve the spirit ofChrist, who vivifies it in the
sacred humanity of Jesus Christ.
The human aspect of Jesus ofNazareth serves the word that
became incarnate.
(27:20):
So we, the church, serve Christand the Holy Spirit and this
whole idea of being thesacrament of unity and sacrament
of salvation.
So this complexity, right, andit's important that we always
remember the complexity of ourreality and not just think of
ourselves as Church as just thehierarchical aspect, right, just
(27:44):
the structure of bishops or thebishops around which the church
militant is built up around,right.
So this is important.
So this goes back to theprimacy of Christ and the
reality of Christ and thereforethe reality of the Holy Spirit
and the spiritual reality thatis very present, right, but at
(28:08):
times that we don't think aboutor consider.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, I loved this when I read it in the notes,
because it's the same degree ofcomplexity as is God fully, or
is Jesus fully God or fully manor is he both?
And it's one of those beautifulCatholic both ends right, and
so the church is the same way,and so, and, and, as we were
saying one of the other previousepisodes, if you just if you
(28:37):
don't, if you don't get theunderstanding right, then you
can't even talk about it as anorganizational group.
Correctly, right, you have tounderstand the complexity.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Yes, and so again.
And that goes back to the wholeidea of why we have to do all
this, because I want to talkabout Chapter 8.
There's only one church and Iwouldn't give her up for
anything.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
You'd be bored if you were in anything else, anything
else?
Speaker 1 (29:10):
true, exactly, okay, so then I'm looking at our time,
okay.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Oh, we're good, we're good.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
The reality of the church is compared, by way of
analogy, to the incarnation ofthe word, using that whole idea
of the two natures.
Right?
Not that the church is anincarnation of the word in the
true sense, as seen in thesacred humanity of Christ?
Okay so, okay so, but that justas in Christ you have the two
(29:45):
natures united, so too in thechurch you have two aspects of
the church which are inseparable, much like the understanding of
our being that is a compositeof body and soul, right?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
So this is what it is it's so.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
We are the incarnation, the continuing
incarnation, but I am not jesuschrist, but what they mean is I.
There is that spiritual aspectof me as bride of christ and
therefore united to christ, andthere is that aspect that we are
this we are called to be thethe continued presence of christ
in the world, right by the waythat we live out our faith and
interact with one another.
(30:30):
Excuse me Going back again toLumen Gentium and this chapter
on the mystery of the church.
The first schema or the firstrough draft presented to the
conciliar fathers in 1962 metwith severe criticism because of
(30:50):
its first consideration of thechurch's institutional people of
God, or in Lumen Gentium, then,the first draft said like it
defines itself as a hierarchy,as bishops and bishops is the
hierarchy and this is, you know,the true successors of the
(31:13):
apostles, which is in a laterchapter.
And so that's why they decidedthen that they don't want that
approach.
They don't want a juridicaldefinition to begin this
constitution.
So the conciliar fathers wanteda more biblical and patristic
understanding of the church,presented in an ecclesiology
(31:33):
that was more catechized, moreeducated and more informed.
And this goes back to the wholeidea of.
It's not that this is new, it'sthat this is rediscovered.
We're going back to a patristicand biblical understanding of
what church is.
So it's not that it's new, it'sa rediscovery of the original
(31:58):
understanding of church from thepatristics and biblical
standpoint, and biblicalstandpoint.
So then a second rough draft,or a second schema was presented
in the fall of 1963, theMystery of the Church, in which
figured most prominently theidea of church as sacrament, but
(32:22):
not to be understood as asacramental reality in the same
sense as the understanding ofthe seven sacraments, right, but
as a sign, as a symbol of aninvisible reality, right.
The church, then, is a universalsacrament of salvation on more
than one level of understanding.
It is called to live the unityin itself that God desires for
(32:46):
all of humanity to enjoy.
And this is always thechallenge, then, right?
The challenge is are we livingthis unity?
And that's why there's alwaysthis prayer in the Eucharist.
It's always a prayer of thechurch, continually in all of
our liturgical celebrations.
It's a prayer of unity, right?
So we need to work on our unityso that we be able to give a
(33:08):
greater witness to the world.
Right?
That's something that we alwayshave to be challenged in.
So, then, that in the dailylife of the Christian community
member—, the member, eachindividual is reminded to be an
example of unity to which allshould aspire Respecting the
dignity of all, stepping outsideof selfishness and becoming
(33:32):
aware of and tending to theneeds of those around us,
providing for the poor, for themarginalized and the vulnerable
to work towards the just andequitable sharing of the earth's
resources, challengingsituations of injustice and
violence so as to come topeaceful resolutions.
(33:54):
All these are signs of unitythat we should be living in,
that we should be attempting tobring about in the world that we
live in.
That's how we influence theworld and that is how we prepare
the world to receive the gospel.
This is sort of the preparationof society for the reception of
(34:15):
the gospel is by trying to workon all these different aspects
of unity, all these differentaspects of unity.
Lumen Gentium, number eight,says Just as Christ carried out
the work of redemption inpoverty and oppression, so the
church is called to follow thesame path if it is to
communicate the fruits ofsalvation to humanity.
(34:40):
I think this is something thatat times we fail to examine
ourselves in a person, to getisolated from the rest of the
(35:05):
community, because they go downa rabbit hole and they find
themselves in a bubble, and thenanything that is outside the
bubble they're not willing toconsider.
And then what happens is thenyou have the nuns in Spain, the
poor clerics in Spain, declaringthemselves separate from the
church, and like, how does thathappen?
Yeah, you get caught in thatecho chamber, right, exactly.
And so that's something that wealways have to be aware of.
(35:28):
I always have to be willing toconsider something uncomfortable
.
I always have to be willing toconsider someone else's opinion,
whether I think it's wrong, orI think they're crazy, or
whatever.
I have to be willing to look atit and try to reason through it
and see is there somethingthere?
(35:48):
Is this an ordinary means ofGod's revelation to me?
Is he speaking to me throughthis person, through this
situation?
Right, and can I do that?
And it's unfortunate that today, most people, when it comes to
I don't want to say religion,because it's not religion most
(36:08):
people today, when it comes totheir popular piety, their
response is always emotional.
It's not reasonable.
They're not willing to consideranything outside of what they
are comfortable with, anythingoutside of what they are
(36:28):
comfortable with right, which tome, I think is is is strange,
because conversion is veryuncomfortable and so if you're
not, willing to.
If you're not willing, to beuncomfortable, then my question
is so you're not willing toenter into your conversion, and
so you're willing to stagnateand stay where you're at?
Speaker 2 (36:40):
so yeah, and this is really interesting too, this
last sentence quote that you had, where Jesus carries out the
works of redemption in povertyand oppression.
How, what you're saying?
How we have to eachindividually be comfortable with
(37:03):
taking action as well, right?
Right, because there's I thinkit's very often misconstrued
that the way to take care of thepoor and the oppressed is with,
like socialism.
Right, and that's not it.
It's not it Because I'm calledin my poverty and in my wealth
(37:27):
to act right.
So the the widow who puts inher last two pennies in the
donation box, right, or um, thethe landowner who pays the
people who work the least thesame as the people who work the
most.
Right, we're called into that.
We have to respond individually.
We can't just say everybodygets everything and it's all the
(37:50):
same.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
No, no, it's not, because then there's no personal
conversion in that Correctcorrect.
So, and I don't want to openthis can of worms, but okay.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
We can write it down and talk about it later.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
So that's where we have to make the distinction
between equality and equity,right, yeah, that's something
that like.
Okay, so I'm going to giveeverybody, every family here.
I'm going to give every familythree loaves of bread.
Okay, fine, that's great.
So if the family is just acouple, three loaves of bread is
(38:30):
more than enough for the week.
But if the family is a familyof six, three loaves of bread
okay, it might get me toWednesday.
Yeah so yeah, so you know whatare the needs right, what are
the needs, the individual needsthat I need to be able to
consider and meet right yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Tangent over.
Yeah, we'll just keep going.
It's a very Carmelite thing.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Right, our Holy Mother was very much like that,
going off on tangents, but okay,I'll blame Teresa on that one.
So I'm going to stop talkingabout chapter one.
There's a lot more chapter one,so please be curious and go
pick up the document and startreading it.
So we're going to skip overchapter two on the people of God
(39:17):
, and chapter three, thehierarchical structure, not
because they're not important,but because we have to decide if
we really want to go into anddo a deep dive into documents or
not.
So we'll have to talk aboutthat later.
But I can say very briefly thatchapter two speaks to the fact
that God calls us as a people.
(39:37):
So chapter two opens with thefollowing quote this is number 9
.
This is the opening of Chapter 2.
At all times and in every race,god has given welcome to
whosoever fears him and doeswhat is right.
God, however, does not make menholy and save them merely as
(40:01):
individuals without bond or linkbetween one another.
Rather has it pleased him tobring men together as one people
, a people which acknowledgeshim in truth and serves him in
holiness.
So then this chapter goes on todouble up the truth that, as
the Holy Spirit dwells in thechurch, it is the Holy Spirit
(40:23):
that gathers and unites this newmessianic people.
It's a very beautiful chapteragain, but we don't have time to
.
If we want to do 638 episodeson the council, I'll be willing
to do it, but we have to decideon that.
So then, chapter three.
(40:43):
The title of chapter three isHierarchical Structure in
Episcopate, and so this is fromnumber 18, the opening number
for chapter 3.
For the nurturing and constantgrowth of the people of God,
this messianic people that theHoly Spirit dwells in right.
For the nurturing and constantgrowth of the people of God,
this messianic people that theHoly Spirit dwells in right.
(41:04):
For the nurturing and constantgrowth of the people of God,
christ the Lord instituted inhis church a variety of
ministries which work for thegood of the whole body.
For those ministers who areendowed with sacred power, serve
their brethren, so that all whoare of the people of God and
(41:25):
therefore enjoy a true Christiandignity, working toward a
common goal freely and in anorderly way, may arrive at
salvation.
Okay, so then, this chapter is adeclaration of our belief that
the bishops are the successorsof the apostles.
Who, together with the Petrineoffice, the vicar of Christ and
(41:47):
who is the visible head and signof unity of the whole church,
govern this house of this newmessianic people in which the
Holy Spirit dwells right.
So that's chapter three.
So again, please be curiousenough to pick up the document,
start reading okay, so should westop here or should we go on?
Speaker 2 (42:13):
I know I keep I keep wondering, like okay because the
lady is the next chapter andit's so good.
Um, I think I can be patient, Ithink I can be patient, I think
I can be patient what would you?
Speaker 1 (42:29):
this is going to be a whole other, maybe 30-40
minutes.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
I know.
So what would you again withthe church?
I don't know just how would youencourage people who are
listening to this to reallyreflect and consider their role
(42:55):
as the church If I was going todo a spiritual direction
exercise of what am I doing?
Well, where can I grow, youknow?
Like how?
How might you?
Speaker 1 (43:08):
I would say, the first thing, people, the first
thing that has to happen,especially in, I would say, the
west uh, in the united states,and in in the west, and
especially depending what partof the united states you find
yourselves in right, is to askyourself how do I really think
(43:28):
of my Christianity, or myCatholicity, right?
Do I think of it in terms of me?
Is it something that I do,right, or is it something my
family does?
And so can I understand that Ibelong to a greater reality?
Again, going back to the wholeidea of that complex reality,
(43:48):
right, do I understand that Ibelong to a greater reality than
myself and my family, right?
Well, yesterday, okay.
Yesterday in this video that theKnights of Columbus showed
before I began my talk yesterdayin Emory Texas.
It was very beautiful.
(44:09):
This image really struck me.
It was like, okay, so in theEucharist we receive the body,
blood, soul and divinity ofJesus Christ under the
appearance of bread and wine.
And so what the commentator wassaying like we receive the
(44:30):
blood of Christ.
We are, in a very existentialway, blood brothers.
And that just struck me.
I go like, wow, okay, so canyou consider the fact that you
(45:03):
are united by blood, throughblood, to the rest of the
believing community?
What does that say to you?
What does that mean to you?
There is this again as bloodbrothers.
there is this commitment, thereis this willingness to suffer
for the other, almost this valoragain, virtue in its original
meaning.
This virtue that is required ofme in my relationship, this
blood relationship, with theother members, and how do I
(45:34):
process that in my understandingas a believer, as a member.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Yeah, there's two things that's really interesting
.
It kind of made me think ofwhen somebody is like an organ
recipient.
Donor, yeah, right, like, ohyeah, your kidney saved my life,
right, so you feel this instantconnection with that person,
even though you probably don'tknow who they are, right, right,
so it kind of made me think ofthat.
(45:58):
It also made me think of thesetwo other thoughts.
It also made me think of thesetwo other thoughts.
These documents so far speak sostrongly and so well against
this very pervasive concept herein the United States of I'm
spiritual but not religious.
(46:19):
Yes, it drives me crazy.
I know.
I really want to talk tosomeone.
I want to be crazy.
(46:42):
How do I, how do I respond?
How do I relate to somebody whohas hurt me?
Because, like we, we, we alwayssay, yeah, everybody's family,
everybody's got that.
You know family drama.
And so then the people in yourparish and the people in the
(47:05):
parishes in your area, and thebishop and the whoever, how am I
called as a member of thissacramental sign, the church?
How am I called to respond?
As Jesus would.
But how do I also navigate that?
Because I think everyone feelslike they should be able to
(47:31):
protect themselves.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
So it's like, how do Ireconcile those two things?
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Well, I think there has to be a distinction right.
Again, it depends to the matterand degree of the hurt that was
received, and so one we arecalled to forgive.
That is something that wecontinuously have to be
convicted of.
I need to forgive right and Ineed to let go of that hurt.
I need to erase that debt thatI believe is owed to me,
(47:59):
whatever right.
That's part of the whole ideaof forgiveness, and the other
aspect of that forgiveness is amatter of okay is this is this a
relationship that iscontinuously hurtful, right?
And if it's a continuouslyhurtful relationship, a relation
(48:20):
, a relationship that bringscontinuous hurt, then I need to
learn how to extract myself fromthat situation.
It doesn't mean that you'recondemning them or judging them
to the last circle of hell inDante's Inferno, but it does
(48:40):
mean I need to maintain peaceand, again, a lot of it has to
do with where you are as anindividual.
If you're strong enoughpsychologically, spiritually,
emotionally, if you're strongenough to not allow this to
trigger you, then fine, you canstill maneuver that relationship
(49:02):
, whether it's in a family orwhether it's at work or wherever
it might be, and if you'restrong enough, then it doesn't
have to trigger you, it doesn'thave to cause you pain.
But what happens is you don'tallow yourself to get caught in
that game again.
You don't allow yourself to getcaught in whatever it is that's
going on in the other person.
And so, again, as I get to theend point of my life and all of
(49:30):
the relationships that I've everrun across in my entire life
maybe as a young man I mighthave believed that there was
people that were malicious.
At this point in my life, Ireally don't think about people
as being malicious.
I think about people as beingbroken or being wounded and this
(49:51):
is how they have survived.
This is how they survive.
This is them being broken, and,okay, I get hurt by it and so
it's a matter of me being ableto forgive and to allow them to
be where they are in theirjourney and continue their
journey in their own mysteriousjourney of redemption, whatever
(50:11):
that may be, whatever that maylead them.
But I have to be willing tocontinue my own journey, my own
journey of forgiveness andacceptance and growth right and
hopefully, through the grace ofthe Holy Spirit, to learn to
make better choices, to allowthe Holy Spirit to enlighten me
(50:33):
and to deepen my conversion.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
Yeah, because all of this, this whole episode about
the church, is focused on theprimacy of Christ, right, yeah,
and so we also have to reconcilethat one.
We are not perfect the wayJesus was perfect.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
No.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
So, whereas it may have, theoretically it could
have been God's will that Judascame back to Jesus and asked for
forgiveness, right, and then hewould have been the greatest
apostle ever, you know, becausewe know Jesus would have
accepted him.
Yeah, yeah, but we're not JesusRight, right.
(51:14):
So we don't have so one, wedon't have that perfect
cooperation with God's will.
But two, that also isn'tnecessarily like perfect.
Forgiveness may not be what Godwants for us, because we're
living out what God wants for usin our life, and so one of the
things is I always tell peoplewhen we talk about brokenness,
(51:35):
like people.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
so why do you think we start every single Eucharist
with?
I confess to Almighty God andto you my brothers and sisters,
does that not make sense to you?
Do you not understand whatwe're saying?
We're all broken, we're allwounded.
It's this motley crew oflimping, bleeding people
journeying across the desert tothe heavenly Jerusalem, and so
(52:01):
yeah in this motley group ofpeople you've got people like
this should be this way.
No, it's not that way.
No, no, no, you should bewalking this way, no, like, okay
.
So again going back to thewhole idea that the proof that
this is Christ's church is thefact that we're still alive
2,000 years after.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
Yeah, I think the only thing that we can for sure
say is that we are called togrow in virtue.
Yes, and if everybody wasgrowing in virtue at the same
rate, then everything would beperfect.
But it's not right.
So I have to understand thatwhere I am is very different
(52:40):
than where you are and where theguy at work who drives me nuts
or whatever it is you know.
So I'm called to respond withthose virtues of patience and
love and charity and all thosekinds of things you know.
But I think we have to also.
I think if we learn to giveourselves those things, to treat
(53:04):
ourselves with patience and allthat, to learn to start seeing
ourselves the way Jesus sees us,it makes it easier to see your
neighbor that way.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
Pete Right, and I think that's where that
temptation comes and it might bea very pious, religious way of
trying to avoid the problem ofcommunities.
Like you know, I'm spiritualbut not religious, like, in
other words, like I don't wantto be bothered by other human
beings Like, well, no, that'snot the way it works.
I remember once, severaldecades ago, I was at a grocery
(53:40):
store checking out or somethingor other.
I forget what store it was, butyou know where they have those
magazine racks, right there bythe checkout right.
So it was the Time magazine orPeople magazine or whatever
magazine it was, and the titlewas Does Christianity Need a
Church?
And I just looked at it and Igo like what I mean then you
(54:05):
have absolutely no idea what thehell Christianity is.
Why does that?
Is a?
That is an asinine question.
I can picture your face, yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:13):
You see just standing there blinking at it.
I was going like God help us,yeah, okay so.
Yeah, it's so funny.
It's so funny.
Well, father, well, father,again, thank you for this.
I know, I know you're gonna betraveling, so before we record
our next episode yeah, so I hope, I hope, a couple things for
(54:36):
you.
I hope you travel safe.
I hope you don't get sick again.
I hope the weather is not ahundred million degrees outside,
but I hope it's not cold too,because I know you don't like to
be cold.
I hate the cold.
All right, well, father, thanks, and everyone who joined us.
Thank you for listening.
Thank you, please share Yep,and we will see everybody next
(54:57):
time.
God bless.
God bless.
Welcome to our podcast friends.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you like our podcast andwant to support us, please
subscribe or follow us, andplease don't forget to click the
notification bell so you willbe notified when new episodes
release.
Thank you and God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me and myfriend, the Friar Father Stephen
Sanchez, a Discalced CarmelitePriest.
Good morning, father.
Good morning, uh-oh, hold on, Imay have done that wrong.
I think Bertha's here again.
Oh no, she heard me.
That cat's so funny.
If I turn and look at her,she'll just sit there and look
(00:49):
at me Like if she's across theroom.
But if I blow her a kiss shestarts meowing.
I don't know if she likes it ornot, but she's like meow.
And then she'll come likeattack me with a laugh.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I told you to stop doing that yeah.
So what were?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
you doing out in Emory again.
You had, it was a teaching, no,you were doing mass.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
No, it was a teaching , it was a conference.
Okay, and the priest there inEmory and St John the Evangelist
Catholic Church out in Emory,which is out in the middle, yeah
, I was going to say Of pastures, right, just all pastures.
It's a very rural church, smallchurch, and the church was
(01:34):
basically destroyed a couple ofyears ago by a tornado and so
they're trying to rebuild thesanctuary, and so they have all
their services in their I don'tknow what you call that building
activities building ormultipurpose building or
whatever.
Anyway, so the Knights ofColumbus were sponsoring a men's
retreat.
And so the pastor there, fatherMichael Ledesma, used to be one
(01:57):
of my directees when he was atHoly Trinity Seminary, and so
then he reached out to me andasked me if I would be willing
to give a conference to thisretreat of men.
And it's entitled EucharisticWarriors, so basically it's
about entering deeper into themystery of the Eucharist and
(02:18):
exploring that.
So it was sponsored by theKnights of Columbus and so there
was three speakers.
I was the first speaker and soI drove out there to give the
conference, and so it's about anhour and a half a little bit
more than that from Dallas.
So I drove out there early inthe morning to get there by a
little bit before 8 to be thereand make sure I found my way
(02:42):
there and got there to the rightplace and didn't get lost in
the middle of a lake orsomething.
And so I went out there.
And so when I looked it up onGoogle the day before, like okay
, let me look it up on Google,right?
So I looked it up on GoogleMaps and all it shows is this
destroyed building right, it'safter the tornado.
Everything is torn down andscattered and there's everything
(03:03):
.
I'm like, so is this going tobe outside, I better take a lot
of water with me or something orother.
But anyway, and so obviouslyGoogle Maps hasn't updated their
maps of the photo of the place,and so I gave a talk on Necrist
, so that's what that was, and Icame back and heard confessions
(03:27):
afterwards and then there wasabout 30 men and then came back,
got back to Dallas, I got about130.
Then I had to get ready for theparish masses, parish
confessions.
I had the vigil mass last nightand then had the mass this
morning at nine.
So trying to get all that done,trying to all get together, was
(03:49):
a little, a little Hectic.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yes, Anyway, that's what I was doing in Emory.
Yeah, yeah, I just looked it upon Apple Maps and it doesn't
look too destroyed on this one.
Okay, but it's a little town,it's 1,200 people yeah, tiny,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
So that's where I was .
Speaker 2 (04:17):
If you had to pick between a gigantic place like
Dallas or a little bitty out inthe middle of nowhere, what
would you pick?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Well, I don't know, I'd be hard-pressed right,
because I like where we are here, because basically they leave
us alone.
Nobody knows where we're at.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
It's very hidden.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
So I like it here.
The problem with a smallcommunity is that everybody
knows everybody's business rightit's like that would be
difficult right um.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
But anyway, I don't know, I don't know yeah, there's
, because even I think withsmall places, small towns, like
where the castle is out of MaryLake yeah, it's in a little
small town kind of thing.
You know it's just south ofLittle Rock but something about
(05:13):
that feels even more secluded,like you think of the European
monastery on top of somemountain peak or something like
that.
That's kind of what Mary Lakehas that feeling to it because
it's so secluded, and so I think, yeah, you all have a nice
location in Dallas because youhave access to anything that you
(05:35):
might need Medical food,whatever Libraries, things like
that that you wouldn't have in asmall town.
So I think, yeah, I would haveto pick either something very
secluded like Mary Lake orsomething in a place like Dallas
.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
The in-between I think is rough, yeah, because
nobody knows really where we'reat in Dallas.
I mean, like how do you knowy'all were here Like yes, thank
you, yep.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Well, and it's so funny that there might be
something that we should talkabout one of these days, because
you, um, just when you're here,carmelites it doesn't feel like
you're in dallas.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
It just really doesn't yeah, because it's it's
separated.
We have a nice piece ofproperty here, uh, and it's kind
of visually secluded fromeverything else.
And so it doesn't really feellike you're in Dallas when
you're here.
You forget that you're inDallas.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, unless you see the skyline.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Oh, you got a visitor .
Speaker 2 (06:36):
True, oh, you should.
Oh, yeah, that's Bertha, she'llbe back, she'll be back.
But, yeah, yeah, so, likecarmelites are kind of funny
creatures too, because you'refriars but you're contemplative
and so you have to.
Well, I guess it depends on onthe necessity, like the need of
your, your house, right, youeither are very self-sufficient
(06:58):
because you've got some kind ofenterprise that keeps you guys
sustained, or you have to go out, right, but you have to balance
that with the quiet solitude.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yes, the contemplative aspect.
Yes, exactly.
So the thing is we are friarswho live in monasteries, not
friars who live in friaries, andwe're not monks who live in
monasteries, we're friars wholive in monasteries.
So that's part of the weirdnessof it is that we still hold on
to our monastic roots from theEast, where we started, so
(07:29):
interesting.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
It's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Tertium quid.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
All right, well, we are back on Lumen Gentium Intro
Right Well, chapter one, I think, the last thing.
Yeah, we got through on LumenGentium intro, right Well
chapter one, I think the lastthing we were on chapter one.
Yeah, so we're going to starttalking today about the primacy
of Christ and I still am just,it's just so silly to me that
(08:00):
we're having to do all this sowe can talk about something else
.
Well, it's silly in a good way,like it tickles my mind,
because so many people askquestions and they want the
one-line response.
They want this is the thingthat answers my question.
Right, and with our faith,that's not possible.
It's so insufficient to justsay, well, here's the answer,
(08:23):
because if you're really beingthoughtful and you really want
to know the answer, thenwhatever you're given, you have
to go.
Well, what does that mean?
Right, right, right.
Okay, so we've talked about thechurch and now?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
We talked about the Holy Spirit.
This is still chapter one ofthe Mystery of the Church.
Yes, and we talked about howthe Holy Spirit dwells in the
church.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
right, yes, and how the.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Holy Spirit sustains the communion within the church.
So we talked also about therenewal of ecclesiology, sort of
like the study of church orcommunity, or, uh, basilia, uh,
so all that, those are allthings, and I mentioned briefly
the, the influence of JohannOtto Moeller's uh understanding
(09:18):
of uh church right and how he isa great influence right.
He's from the school of theuniversity of Tübingen in.
Germany.
So then we're moving on to thenext section, or the next part
of chapter one is the primacy ofChrist.
The church, or the conciliarfathers needed to reemphasize
(09:44):
this.
The church or the conciliarfathers needed to reemphasize
this to declare probably to makesure that people don't
misunderstand Catholics right,but the primacy of Christ in the
church.
In fact, it's interesting.
I just thought of this right nowand I was preaching at St
(10:12):
Anne's several years ago.
There was a one of themusicians, uh, was not a
catholic and was there with theministry of music playing, and
so I was preaching and aftermass, went up and to thank the
musicians, as I usually do so,to go thank the musicians and
stuff, and so they introduced meto this young man who was not a
Catholic, right, and so I saidoh, welcome, how did you think
(10:33):
of our service and what faithtradition do you come from?
He said I have never been to aservice where people talk so
much about Jesus.
This is refreshing.
Yes, this is what it's about.
It's about Jesus.
So, anyway, the primacy ofChrist.
So, as we look at the documents,or as the document is
(11:00):
developing in this chapter oneagain, the primary idea or the
concept that is trying to betaught, catechized, is that
Christ is the primary sacrament.
So what does that mean?
So we know that the sacramentis a visible sign of an
invisible reality.
And so then, if this is true,then Jesus, who is the visible
sign of the invisible reality,is the primary sacrament, just
(11:22):
as he is the gospel, right.
So Jesus reveals himself as thesource of redeeming grace, but
also he reveals himself to beGod, the Father's love.
That's who Jesus is, theincarnation of this love.
To the extent that the church is, in Christ, a reflection of
(11:44):
that same light continues toshine forth for all humanity.
And again, connecting this tothe indwelling of the Holy
Spirit and how the Holy Spiritcalls us together in unity and
stuff so this is part of thatsame truth is that we, as church
, are called to be thereflection of the light of
(12:05):
Christ to all of humanity, sothat when the church imitates
the self-emptying love of Christ, she, the church, becomes a
sacrament of that same love.
The church, the community ofbelievers, is called to be an
instrument of this saving lovein the world.
(12:29):
So, yes, christ is the primarysacrament, but we, as the body
of Christ, as the bride ofChrist, having the spirit of the
risen Lord dwelling in us anduniting us to Christ, then we
are called to be this sacramentfor the world, and so that's one
of the questions that has to becontinuously re-asked is are we
(12:57):
being a sacrament of love forthe world right?
So, that's something that wealways need to sort of ask
ourselves and convict ourselvesof.
And so, in SacrosanctumConcilium, on the Reformer, the
Liturgy, on the ConstitutionalLiturgy of the Church, number
five in Sacrosanctum Conciliustells us that, for it was from
(13:21):
the sight of Christ, as he sleptthe sleep of death upon the
cross, that there came forth thewondrous sacrament of the whole
church.
Okay, so this is then the imageof Christ as the new Adam, the
(13:43):
bride of Christ, the new Adam,the bride of Christ, so the
church being the new Eve.
And this is where it getslayers and layers of confusing
images, right?
So the church, then, is the newEve that is born from the sight
of Christ.
But just as Christ is the newAdam and the church is the new
Eve, christ is the new Adam andthe church is the new Eve.
(14:04):
Now, the new Eve is also thebride of Christ, just as Eve was
the bride of Adam.
And so this is where thatimagery goes, and we talked
about typology once, right?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
So this is kind of the idea of typology again.
Yeah, and at the end of ourlast episode, moeller, is it
Moeller?
Is that how you say his name,or?
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Moeller yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Moeller.
Moeller was saying how he wasconsidering that the church is
the continuation of theincarnation.
Yes and so.
Yeah, it is interesting all thelayers, because you have to ask
yourself as an individual, butthen the church has to ask
itself as the whole organism.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
And we have to respond individually and as a
community.
Correct, and that's just soeasy.
So not a problem at all.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
So I have a quote from Gilarditz in his book on
the Second Vatican Council.
So this is a quote from hisbook.
For this reason St Cyprian, thethird century bishop of
Carthage, could refer to thechurch as the sacrament of unity
(15:19):
and as sacrament of salvation.
The expression sacrament ofunity is taken up first in the
dogmatic constitution on thechurch, or Lumen Gentium, in
Numbers 9, number 48, and Number59.
Those are those paragraphnumbers.
Also in the pastoralconstitution on the church in
(15:40):
the modern world, or Gaudium etSpes, in Paragraph Number 45,
and in the decree on the Churchin the Modern World, or Gaudium
et Spes, in paragraph number 45,and in the Decree on the
Church's Missionary Activity, inparagraph 1.
So the unity is not just theunity between all those of us
still in spatio-temporal reality, but includes those who have
(16:04):
preceded us, marked with thesign of faith this whole idea of
communion of saints.
So this unity, is not just usgoing to church together, or all
the diocese of the worldtogether, but all of us, those
of us in what we call the church, militant with the church
triumphant, with the saintsright and the church suffering
(16:24):
the souls in purgatory.
So then, the action of theliturgy is understood as the
work of the whole body of ChristAgain going back to the whole
idea of the primacy of Christand the liturgy cannot be
privatized.
(16:44):
In other words, we should notthink of the liturgy as
something that I am doing or mycommunity is doing or I'm doing
in this church or in this smallchapel, whatever.
We always have to think of itas the celebration of the entire
church Okay, the entire church,okay.
(17:05):
So even if I would celebrate aMass by myself, which I
sometimes do, because sometimesI find myself- alone and I want
to celebrate Mass.
I might be celebrating Massalone, but it's not really alone
.
I'm celebrating the liturgy ofthe Church, With the Church
triumphant as well.
Yes, we should always think ofit that way, right?
So then, when we live in accordwith the saving grace of God,
(17:34):
our relationships aretransformed, we are reconciled
not only to God but also to oneanother, and are enabled to live
in greater harmony with theworld around us Excuse me, the
world around us.
So, since the church is inChrist like a sacrament, or as a
sign and an instrument both ofa very closely knit union with
(17:55):
God and the unity of the wholehuman race, the council fathers
remind us of our baptismal callto be living examples of the
unity God desires for the entirehuman family.
That's the prayer that wealways pray at the Eucharist.
There's always that that we maybe one that we be united in the
(18:16):
Holy Spirit, that the HolySpirit make us one.
There's always a continuousprayer for unity right?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yeah, can I ask a question real quick, of course.
So the question is what advicewould you give to somebody who's
struggling to live out theirfaith in an interpersonal way?
(18:45):
Because you know, just likereligious, there's different
religious groups, attractdifferent types of people
because we're all so unique.
So there's some people that areintroverted, there are some
people that are very social,there are some people that are
right.
But regardless of how you are,you have to live out your faith
(19:09):
interpersonally right.
Even the hermit, to some degreeit's interpersonal.
Still, he's still a member ofthe church community.
So when somebody who is maybethey're doing a lot of studying,
they really feel like they'vegot a lot of growth going on,
maybe they're doing a lot ofstudying, they really feel like
they've got a lot of growthgoing on, but they struggle to
(19:33):
engage with the church Like whatadvice would you give to
someone like that?
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Well, that would be a very okay.
I can give a very broad answerto that hypothetical situation,
but then it would depend againon the individual.
What are the yeah, what is theroot cause in the individual?
now seeing a very broad stroke,I would say um, what is the
cause of the difficulty?
Is it expectation?
(19:58):
What are your expectations?
What is it that you'reexpecting?
Is that expectation reasonable,right?
Um, have you truly attempted toenter into dialogue or into a
community, or engage with thecommunity that you find yourself
(20:20):
worshiping?
With right, and depending whereyou're at in the church,
there's different sometimesevery mass.
Us Catholics, we're very likeall human beings.
We're creatures of habit, solike we go to the same mass all
the time, usually right.
So, for example, at St Anne's,which is a humongous parish, you
know, there's people that go tothe 10 o'clock mass that have
(20:40):
absolutely no idea of the peoplewho go to the vigil mass they
go to the 4 o'clock mass they goto, and sometimes it's been
funny that we're all together,we're in a group of people and
like, oh yeah, I go to St Anne's.
Oh yeah, what mass do you go to?
I go to the 10 o'clock mass.
I go to St Anne's.
I go to the 4 o'clock mass.
Oh yeah, I've should look intobeing a lector.
(21:11):
Maybe I should look into beingan usher.
Maybe I should look into someof the ministries there.
Maybe I should look into arethere classes that are being
offered?
Do I want to commit to maybegoing to an rcia class, even
though I may not need it?
It's always good to educateourselves.
There's different ways, right?
So it's a matter of what.
What is the expectation andwhat?
(21:32):
What is it that that you aredoing to engage with that
community, right?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
yeah, yeah.
So, like for for myself, I knowthat I like, I don't become
energized when I'm around otherpeople.
For me, being around lots ofother people makes me very tired
.
Yeah me too.
You know what I mean.
Yeah me too, so there's apersonal cost associated with
(22:01):
engaging with all those otherpeople and so, you know, I would
hope people realize that theyone, they'd realize the
importance they still need tosomehow connect.
But it doesn't have to be inthe middle of the chaos of a
mass right.
You don't have to go be alector or go be an usher or
(22:22):
something, when being around allthese people is exhausting,
like you were saying.
Maybe it's I'm going to golearn or maybe I can go
volunteer on the weekend or on aweekday or something like that
and clean or something like that.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, or you know, or go to adoration.
If they have adoration you know, join an adoration team or
something where you know youdon't have to expend yourself
socially if you don't want to anadoration team or something
where you know you don't have toexpend yourself socially if you
don't want to.
But I think part of it too, then, is to have the courage to go
to or call the office or findsomebody like, okay, is there
(22:57):
like a welcoming ministry heresomewhere?
You know there's newparishioners or I'm interested,
you know, so I'm a visitor here,and so do they have like a
little social thing afterwards.
Or you know there must besomething right.
And so part of it too is Ithink part of it too is are we
expecting the church to read mymind and my needs when it can't?
Right, it's a functioningorganism, right, and so as I try
(23:21):
to assimilate myself into thisfunctioning organism, and so as
I try to assimilate myself intothis functioning organism, I
have to be able to express andcommit to my initiating that
interchange right, or that newrelationship with that community
(23:41):
.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah, yeah, and sorry not to get us sidetracked on
that, it's just I was thinkingabout it because if the church
is a sign of Jesus, right, if weare his body.
He didn't come just to go, sitall by himself and do nothing
with other people.
He came to interact with otherpeople.
So we must find a way to engagewith others with our faith.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Right, right, and I think it's more difficult for
introverts because we find itvery difficult and challenging
to even want to engage, right,so that's hard, yeah, okay.
So getting back to the primacyof Christ, right, and this whole
(24:24):
idea of the primacy of Christ,right, and this whole idea of
the primacy of Christ, and thiswhole new ecclesiology, or the
emphasis on ecclesiology, andpneumatology and the Holy Spirit
, all these new things that theCouncil was rediscovering, the
primacy of Christ, or thisrediscovered understanding of
the primacy of Christ, attemptedto make itself known at the
(24:46):
first Vatican Council, but thebishops were uncomfortable with
the vagueness of the concept andinstead turned to the
Bellarmine, st Bellarmine,cardinal Bellarmine, his image
of the perfect society, and sothe church as perfect society.
(25:06):
And it wasn't until 1943, withPope.
Pius XII very important pope,the Pope Pius XII's encyclical
Mystici Corporis, or themystical body of Christ, right
that a more incarnationalecclesiology would be introduced
into the Church teaching.
So this would be furtherexpanded upon during the Second
(25:30):
Vatican Council.
We see this incarnationalapproach in the first paragraph
of number 8 of this document.
So number 8 of Lumen Gentiumsays Ablumen Gentium says Christ
(25:52):
, the one mediator, establishedand continually sustains here on
earth his holy church, thecommunity of faith, hope and
charity, as an entity withvisible delineation through
which he communicated truth andgrace to all, delineation
through which he communicatedtruth and grace to all.
But the society structured withhierarchical organs that'll be
(26:12):
the next chapter and themystical body of Christ are not
to be considered as tworealities.
Nor are the visible assemblyand the spiritual community, nor
the earthly church and thechurch enriched with heavenly
things.
Rather, they form one complexreality which coalesces from a
(26:38):
divine and human element.
For this reason, by no weakanalogy, it is compared to the
mystery of the incarnate word,as the assumed nature,
inseparably united to him,serves the divine word as a
living organ of salvation.
So in a similar way does thevisible social structure of the
(27:00):
church serve the spirit ofChrist, who vivifies it in the
sacred humanity of Jesus Christ.
The human aspect of Jesus ofNazareth serves the word that
became incarnate.
(27:20):
So we, the church, serve Christand the Holy Spirit and this
whole idea of being thesacrament of unity and sacrament
of salvation.
So this complexity, right, andit's important that we always
remember the complexity of ourreality and not just think of
ourselves as Church as just thehierarchical aspect, right, just
(27:44):
the structure of bishops or thebishops around which the church
militant is built up around,right.
So this is important.
So this goes back to theprimacy of Christ and the
reality of Christ and thereforethe reality of the Holy Spirit
and the spiritual reality thatis very present, right, but at
(28:08):
times that we don't think aboutor consider.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, I loved this when I read it in the notes,
because it's the same degree ofcomplexity as is God fully, or
is Jesus fully God or fully manor is he both?
And it's one of those beautifulCatholic both ends right, and
so the church is the same way,and so, and, and, as we were
saying one of the other previousepisodes, if you just if you
(28:37):
don't, if you don't get theunderstanding right, then you
can't even talk about it as anorganizational group.
Correctly, right, you have tounderstand the complexity.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Yes, and so again.
And that goes back to the wholeidea of why we have to do all
this, because I want to talkabout Chapter 8.
There's only one church and Iwouldn't give her up for
anything.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
You'd be bored if you were in anything else, anything
else?
Speaker 1 (29:10):
true, exactly, okay, so then I'm looking at our time,
okay.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Oh, we're good, we're good.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
The reality of the church is compared, by way of
analogy, to the incarnation ofthe word, using that whole idea
of the two natures.
Right?
Not that the church is anincarnation of the word in the
true sense, as seen in thesacred humanity of Christ?
Okay so, okay so, but that justas in Christ you have the two
(29:45):
natures united, so too in thechurch you have two aspects of
the church which are inseparable, much like the understanding of
our being that is a compositeof body and soul, right?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
So this is what it is it's so.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
We are the incarnation, the continuing
incarnation, but I am not jesuschrist, but what they mean is I.
There is that spiritual aspectof me as bride of christ and
therefore united to christ, andthere is that aspect that we are
this we are called to be thethe continued presence of christ
in the world, right by the waythat we live out our faith and
interact with one another.
(30:30):
Excuse me Going back again toLumen Gentium and this chapter
on the mystery of the church.
The first schema or the firstrough draft presented to the
conciliar fathers in 1962 metwith severe criticism because of
(30:50):
its first consideration of thechurch's institutional people of
God, or in Lumen Gentium, then,the first draft said like it
defines itself as a hierarchy,as bishops and bishops is the
hierarchy and this is, you know,the true successors of the
(31:13):
apostles, which is in a laterchapter.
And so that's why they decidedthen that they don't want that
approach.
They don't want a juridicaldefinition to begin this
constitution.
So the conciliar fathers wanteda more biblical and patristic
understanding of the church,presented in an ecclesiology
(31:33):
that was more catechized, moreeducated and more informed.
And this goes back to the wholeidea of.
It's not that this is new, it'sthat this is rediscovered.
We're going back to a patristicand biblical understanding of
what church is.
So it's not that it's new, it'sa rediscovery of the original
(31:58):
understanding of church from thepatristics and biblical
standpoint, and biblicalstandpoint.
So then a second rough draft,or a second schema was presented
in the fall of 1963, theMystery of the Church, in which
figured most prominently theidea of church as sacrament, but
(32:22):
not to be understood as asacramental reality in the same
sense as the understanding ofthe seven sacraments, right, but
as a sign, as a symbol of aninvisible reality, right.
The church, then, is a universalsacrament of salvation on more
than one level of understanding.
It is called to live the unityin itself that God desires for
(32:46):
all of humanity to enjoy.
And this is always thechallenge, then, right?
The challenge is are we livingthis unity?
And that's why there's alwaysthis prayer in the Eucharist.
It's always a prayer of thechurch, continually in all of
our liturgical celebrations.
It's a prayer of unity, right?
So we need to work on our unityso that we be able to give a
(33:08):
greater witness to the world.
Right?
That's something that we alwayshave to be challenged in.
So, then, that in the dailylife of the Christian community
member—, the member, eachindividual is reminded to be an
example of unity to which allshould aspire Respecting the
dignity of all, stepping outsideof selfishness and becoming
(33:32):
aware of and tending to theneeds of those around us,
providing for the poor, for themarginalized and the vulnerable
to work towards the just andequitable sharing of the earth's
resources, challengingsituations of injustice and
violence so as to come topeaceful resolutions.
(33:54):
All these are signs of unitythat we should be living in,
that we should be attempting tobring about in the world that we
live in.
That's how we influence theworld and that is how we prepare
the world to receive the gospel.
This is sort of the preparationof society for the reception of
(34:15):
the gospel is by trying to workon all these different aspects
of unity, all these differentaspects of unity.
Lumen Gentium, number eight,says Just as Christ carried out
the work of redemption inpoverty and oppression, so the
church is called to follow thesame path if it is to
communicate the fruits ofsalvation to humanity.
(34:40):
I think this is something thatat times we fail to examine
ourselves in a person, to getisolated from the rest of the
(35:05):
community, because they go downa rabbit hole and they find
themselves in a bubble, and thenanything that is outside the
bubble they're not willing toconsider.
And then what happens is thenyou have the nuns in Spain, the
poor clerics in Spain, declaringthemselves separate from the
church, and like, how does thathappen?
Yeah, you get caught in thatecho chamber, right, exactly.
And so that's something that wealways have to be aware of.
(35:28):
I always have to be willing toconsider something uncomfortable
.
I always have to be willing toconsider someone else's opinion,
whether I think it's wrong, orI think they're crazy, or
whatever.
I have to be willing to look atit and try to reason through it
and see is there somethingthere?
(35:48):
Is this an ordinary means ofGod's revelation to me?
Is he speaking to me throughthis person, through this
situation?
Right, and can I do that?
And it's unfortunate that today, most people, when it comes to
I don't want to say religion,because it's not religion most
(36:08):
people today, when it comes totheir popular piety, their
response is always emotional.
It's not reasonable.
They're not willing to consideranything outside of what they
are comfortable with, anythingoutside of what they are
(36:28):
comfortable with right, which tome, I think is is is strange,
because conversion is veryuncomfortable and so if you're
not, willing to.
If you're not willing, to beuncomfortable, then my question
is so you're not willing toenter into your conversion, and
so you're willing to stagnateand stay where you're at?
Speaker 2 (36:40):
so yeah, and this is really interesting too, this
last sentence quote that you had, where Jesus carries out the
works of redemption in povertyand oppression.
How, what you're saying?
How we have to eachindividually be comfortable with
(37:03):
taking action as well, right?
Right, because there's I thinkit's very often misconstrued
that the way to take care of thepoor and the oppressed is with,
like socialism.
Right, and that's not it.
It's not it Because I'm calledin my poverty and in my wealth
(37:27):
to act right.
So the the widow who puts inher last two pennies in the
donation box, right, or um, thethe landowner who pays the
people who work the least thesame as the people who work the
most.
Right, we're called into that.
We have to respond individually.
We can't just say everybodygets everything and it's all the
(37:50):
same.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
No, no, it's not, because then there's no personal
conversion in that Correctcorrect.
So, and I don't want to openthis can of worms, but okay.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
We can write it down and talk about it later.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
So that's where we have to make the distinction
between equality and equity,right, yeah, that's something
that like.
Okay, so I'm going to giveeverybody, every family here.
I'm going to give every familythree loaves of bread.
Okay, fine, that's great.
So if the family is just acouple, three loaves of bread is
(38:30):
more than enough for the week.
But if the family is a familyof six, three loaves of bread
okay, it might get me toWednesday.
Yeah so yeah, so you know whatare the needs right, what are
the needs, the individual needsthat I need to be able to
consider and meet right yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Tangent over.
Yeah, we'll just keep going.
It's a very Carmelite thing.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Right, our Holy Mother was very much like that,
going off on tangents, but okay,I'll blame Teresa on that one.
So I'm going to stop talkingabout chapter one.
There's a lot more chapter one,so please be curious and go
pick up the document and startreading it.
So we're going to skip overchapter two on the people of God
(39:17):
, and chapter three, thehierarchical structure, not
because they're not important,but because we have to decide if
we really want to go into anddo a deep dive into documents or
not.
So we'll have to talk aboutthat later.
But I can say very briefly thatchapter two speaks to the fact
that God calls us as a people.
(39:37):
So chapter two opens with thefollowing quote this is number 9
.
This is the opening of Chapter 2.
At all times and in every race,god has given welcome to
whosoever fears him and doeswhat is right.
God, however, does not make menholy and save them merely as
(40:01):
individuals without bond or linkbetween one another.
Rather has it pleased him tobring men together as one people
, a people which acknowledgeshim in truth and serves him in
holiness.
So then this chapter goes on todouble up the truth that, as
the Holy Spirit dwells in thechurch, it is the Holy Spirit
(40:23):
that gathers and unites this newmessianic people.
It's a very beautiful chapteragain, but we don't have time to
.
If we want to do 638 episodeson the council, I'll be willing
to do it, but we have to decideon that.
So then, chapter three.
(40:43):
The title of chapter three isHierarchical Structure in
Episcopate, and so this is fromnumber 18, the opening number
for chapter 3.
For the nurturing and constantgrowth of the people of God,
this messianic people that theHoly Spirit dwells in right.
For the nurturing and constantgrowth of the people of God,
this messianic people that theHoly Spirit dwells in right.
(41:04):
For the nurturing and constantgrowth of the people of God,
christ the Lord instituted inhis church a variety of
ministries which work for thegood of the whole body.
For those ministers who areendowed with sacred power, serve
their brethren, so that all whoare of the people of God and
(41:25):
therefore enjoy a true Christiandignity, working toward a
common goal freely and in anorderly way, may arrive at
salvation.
Okay, so then, this chapter is adeclaration of our belief that
the bishops are the successorsof the apostles.
Who, together with the Petrineoffice, the vicar of Christ and
(41:47):
who is the visible head and signof unity of the whole church,
govern this house of this newmessianic people in which the
Holy Spirit dwells right.
So that's chapter three.
So again, please be curiousenough to pick up the document,
start reading okay, so should westop here or should we go on?
Speaker 2 (42:13):
I know I keep I keep wondering, like okay because the
lady is the next chapter andit's so good.
Um, I think I can be patient, Ithink I can be patient, I think
I can be patient what would you?
Speaker 1 (42:29):
this is going to be a whole other, maybe 30-40
minutes.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
I know.
So what would you again withthe church?
I don't know just how would youencourage people who are
listening to this to reallyreflect and consider their role
(42:55):
as the church If I was going todo a spiritual direction
exercise of what am I doing?
Well, where can I grow, youknow?
Like how?
How might you?
Speaker 1 (43:08):
I would say, the first thing, people, the first
thing that has to happen,especially in, I would say, the
west uh, in the united states,and in in the west, and
especially depending what partof the united states you find
yourselves in right, is to askyourself how do I really think
(43:28):
of my Christianity, or myCatholicity, right?
Do I think of it in terms of me?
Is it something that I do,right, or is it something my
family does?
And so can I understand that Ibelong to a greater reality?
Again, going back to the wholeidea of that complex reality,
(43:48):
right, do I understand that Ibelong to a greater reality than
myself and my family, right?
Well, yesterday, okay.
Yesterday in this video that theKnights of Columbus showed
before I began my talk yesterdayin Emory Texas.
It was very beautiful.
(44:09):
This image really struck me.
It was like, okay, so in theEucharist we receive the body,
blood, soul and divinity ofJesus Christ under the
appearance of bread and wine.
And so what the commentator wassaying like we receive the
(44:30):
blood of Christ.
We are, in a very existentialway, blood brothers.
And that just struck me.
I go like, wow, okay, so canyou consider the fact that you
(45:03):
are united by blood, throughblood, to the rest of the
believing community?
What does that say to you?
What does that mean to you?
There is this again as bloodbrothers.
there is this commitment, thereis this willingness to suffer
for the other, almost this valoragain, virtue in its original
meaning.
This virtue that is required ofme in my relationship, this
blood relationship, with theother members, and how do I
(45:34):
process that in my understandingas a believer, as a member.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Yeah, there's two things that's really interesting
.
It kind of made me think ofwhen somebody is like an organ
recipient.
Donor, yeah, right, like, ohyeah, your kidney saved my life,
right, so you feel this instantconnection with that person,
even though you probably don'tknow who they are, right, right,
so it kind of made me think ofthat.
(45:58):
It also made me think of thesetwo other thoughts.
It also made me think of thesetwo other thoughts.
These documents so far speak sostrongly and so well against
this very pervasive concept herein the United States of I'm
spiritual but not religious.
(46:19):
Yes, it drives me crazy.
I know.
I really want to talk tosomeone.
I want to be crazy.
(46:42):
How do I, how do I respond?
How do I relate to somebody whohas hurt me?
Because, like we, we, we alwayssay, yeah, everybody's family,
everybody's got that.
You know family drama.
And so then the people in yourparish and the people in the
(47:05):
parishes in your area, and thebishop and the whoever, how am I
called as a member of thissacramental sign, the church?
How am I called to respond?
As Jesus would.
But how do I also navigate that?
Because I think everyone feelslike they should be able to
(47:31):
protect themselves.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
So it's like, how do Ireconcile those two things?
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Well, I think there has to be a distinction right.
Again, it depends to the matterand degree of the hurt that was
received, and so one we arecalled to forgive.
That is something that wecontinuously have to be
convicted of.
I need to forgive right and Ineed to let go of that hurt.
I need to erase that debt thatI believe is owed to me,
(47:59):
whatever right.
That's part of the whole ideaof forgiveness, and the other
aspect of that forgiveness is amatter of okay is this is this a
relationship that iscontinuously hurtful, right?
And if it's a continuouslyhurtful relationship, a relation
(48:20):
, a relationship that bringscontinuous hurt, then I need to
learn how to extract myself fromthat situation.
It doesn't mean that you'recondemning them or judging them
to the last circle of hell inDante's Inferno, but it does
(48:40):
mean I need to maintain peaceand, again, a lot of it has to
do with where you are as anindividual.
If you're strong enoughpsychologically, spiritually,
emotionally, if you're strongenough to not allow this to
trigger you, then fine, you canstill maneuver that relationship
(49:02):
, whether it's in a family orwhether it's at work or wherever
it might be, and if you'restrong enough, then it doesn't
have to trigger you, it doesn'thave to cause you pain.
But what happens is you don'tallow yourself to get caught in
that game again.
You don't allow yourself to getcaught in whatever it is that's
going on in the other person.
And so, again, as I get to theend point of my life and all of
(49:30):
the relationships that I've everrun across in my entire life
maybe as a young man I mighthave believed that there was
people that were malicious.
At this point in my life, Ireally don't think about people
as being malicious.
I think about people as beingbroken or being wounded and this
(49:51):
is how they have survived.
This is how they survive.
This is them being broken, and,okay, I get hurt by it and so
it's a matter of me being ableto forgive and to allow them to
be where they are in theirjourney and continue their
journey in their own mysteriousjourney of redemption, whatever
(50:11):
that may be, whatever that maylead them.
But I have to be willing tocontinue my own journey, my own
journey of forgiveness andacceptance and growth right and
hopefully, through the grace ofthe Holy Spirit, to learn to
make better choices, to allowthe Holy Spirit to enlighten me
(50:33):
and to deepen my conversion.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
Yeah, because all of this, this whole episode about
the church, is focused on theprimacy of Christ, right, yeah,
and so we also have to reconcilethat one.
We are not perfect the wayJesus was perfect.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
No.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
So, whereas it may have, theoretically it could
have been God's will that Judascame back to Jesus and asked for
forgiveness, right, and then hewould have been the greatest
apostle ever, you know, becausewe know Jesus would have
accepted him.
Yeah, yeah, but we're not JesusRight, right.
(51:14):
So we don't have so one, wedon't have that perfect
cooperation with God's will.
But two, that also isn'tnecessarily like perfect.
Forgiveness may not be what Godwants for us, because we're
living out what God wants for usin our life, and so one of the
things is I always tell peoplewhen we talk about brokenness,
(51:35):
like people.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
so why do you think we start every single Eucharist
with?
I confess to Almighty God andto you my brothers and sisters,
does that not make sense to you?
Do you not understand whatwe're saying?
We're all broken, we're allwounded.
It's this motley crew oflimping, bleeding people
journeying across the desert tothe heavenly Jerusalem, and so
(52:01):
yeah in this motley group ofpeople you've got people like
this should be this way.
No, it's not that way.
No, no, no, you should bewalking this way, no, like, okay
.
So again going back to thewhole idea that the proof that
this is Christ's church is thefact that we're still alive
2,000 years after.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
Yeah, I think the only thing that we can for sure
say is that we are called togrow in virtue.
Yes, and if everybody wasgrowing in virtue at the same
rate, then everything would beperfect.
But it's not right.
So I have to understand thatwhere I am is very different
(52:40):
than where you are and where theguy at work who drives me nuts
or whatever it is you know.
So I'm called to respond withthose virtues of patience and
love and charity and all thosekinds of things you know.
But I think we have to also.
I think if we learn to giveourselves those things, to treat
(53:04):
ourselves with patience and allthat, to learn to start seeing
ourselves the way Jesus sees us,it makes it easier to see your
neighbor that way.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
Pete Right, and I think that's where that
temptation comes and it might bea very pious, religious way of
trying to avoid the problem ofcommunities.
Like you know, I'm spiritualbut not religious, like, in
other words, like I don't wantto be bothered by other human
beings Like, well, no, that'snot the way it works.
I remember once, severaldecades ago, I was at a grocery
(53:40):
store checking out or somethingor other.
I forget what store it was, butyou know where they have those
magazine racks, right there bythe checkout right.
So it was the Time magazine orPeople magazine or whatever
magazine it was, and the titlewas Does Christianity Need a
Church?
And I just looked at it and Igo like what I mean then you
(54:05):
have absolutely no idea what thehell Christianity is.
Why does that?
Is a?
That is an asinine question.
I can picture your face, yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:13):
You see just standing there blinking at it.
I was going like God help us,yeah, okay so.
Yeah, it's so funny.
It's so funny.
Well, father, well, father,again, thank you for this.
I know, I know you're gonna betraveling, so before we record
our next episode yeah, so I hope, I hope, a couple things for
(54:36):
you.
I hope you travel safe.
I hope you don't get sick again.
I hope the weather is not ahundred million degrees outside,
but I hope it's not cold too,because I know you don't like to
be cold.
I hate the cold.
All right, well, father, thanks, and everyone who joined us.
Thank you for listening.
Thank you, please share Yep,and we will see everybody next
(54:57):
time.
God bless.
God bless.
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