August 16, 2024 • 47 mins
In this episode, John and Fr. Stephen delve into the historical context of Vatican II.
Take a walk through history with us as we revisit the abrupt end of the First Vatican Council in 1870 and the unresolved issues it left behind. Fast forward to 1958, when Pope John XXIII initiated the Second Vatican Council with a focus on inclusivity and transparency. We explore how his vision aimed at addressing the Church's challenges and how the preparatory work set the stage for a significant shift towards openness and communal participation within the Church.
Understanding the Second Vatican Council's teachings isn't straightforward, and we tackle the complexities head-on. From the diverse sources and necessary compromises to the broader context of the council's entirety, we provide insights into interpreting these teachings.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to our podcast friends.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you like our podcast andwant to support us, please
subscribe or follow us, andplease don't forget to click the
notification bell so you willbe notified when new episodes
release.
Thank you and God bless TacoCasa.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
So good, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me.
My friend the friar, he's back.
He's back Father StephenSanchez, a discalced Carmelite
priest.
Good afternoon, good evening,good evening.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yes, it is evening, You've been gone for so long.
Yes, been doing a lot oftraveling.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
How many states have you been to?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
this year alone One, two.
Well, of course, arkansas, thenNorth Carolina and Georgia.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
And then I'm going to Boston next week.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And Texas.
That's what four?
Texas, yeah, and you've beensick 17 times.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, that COVID kind of got me, really, knocked me
on my behind.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, so there's that .
And now the spores.
Yes, you don't look like azombie.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yet See, that's externally.
It hasn't broken through yetit's still gestating.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Oh, my goodness, I've missed you so much, man.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Um, we have talked about all sorts of things
without you, and now yes, I'mwaiting for the um Holy sees
approval that I begin theinquisition for you and Mark.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
We'll have that talk later.
All the the heresies aboutaliens and stuff, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
We'll get back to that.
We'll come back to that.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Okay, Well, before you righteously smite me how
about you teacheth me aboutlumingentium?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, lumumen Gentium , when we first talked about
this, we had said that I wantedto talk on chapter 8, which has
to do with the Blessed VirginMary and the Church and Mary as
the icon of the church right andthe importance of a
Christological Mariology, or anunderstanding of Mary within the
(02:49):
scope of the church as thepeople of God.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, when was that?
That was a while.
I mean everything, because Ihaven't talked to you in so long
.
It was a while back, it was awhile.
It was one of those things thatwe actually said, hey, we
should talk about that, weshould, yes, and we remembered.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
To talk about this, right?
So then I began working on that, and then, as I was working on
that, I go like ah, it's allcontextual, I need to
contextualize this, so I shouldprobably do an introduction to
Lumen Gentium.
So I said, okay, so, but I justcan't do an introduction.
I should probably do a littlebit on chapter one, a little bit
on chapter four, a little biton chapter five, so I can
actually get to chapter eight.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So yeah, well, and you have to understand it in
historical context as well.
Yes, the context of it all,because you just yeah yeah, yeah
, but I'm really excited becausethe um, like I always, I get to
cheat right like.
I've read the show notes, Iknow what, I know what we're
going to talk about, but thesedocuments are amazing.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
They are.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I don't know.
Well, I would have to say Ihave a feeling that people who
are all on the bandwagon of, oh,Vatican II was heretical
nonsense and all that kind ofstuff, right the end of the
church, blah, blah, blah I don'tknow if they've read the
documents.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Most likely not.
Most people have not, so we'renot going to cover them all.
That would be nice, though wecould probably do a deep dive
into the Vatican documents, butanyway.
So I want to do thisintroduction to Lumen Gentium,
which is the dogmaticconstitution on the church which
(04:31):
was promulgated by Pope Paul VIon November 21st 1964.
But before we dive into theintro to this document, lumen
Gentium, first I want to sort oflay out the logic of the
conciliar fathers and the mannerin which we should understand
(04:53):
and approach these documents.
Now I'll start off by sayingthat these are very, very broad
strokes, a very general way ofapproaching the documents.
But it's helpful to have thissort of 30,000-foot kind of like
overview and look at this.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
So of all this, there are 16 documents that were
published.
So at the center of all thesedocuments, at the center of this
thing, we have two primarydocuments, and it has to do with
the core belief that God hasrevealed himself to us.
And so if God has revealedhimself to us, then that this
(05:39):
revelation that God manifestshimself, he manifests himself to
us for our salvation, ourredemption or our restoration,
whichever word you want to useto communicate that inner
yearning for a communicationwith or connection with the
(06:00):
supernatural, for our completion, a revelation that is for God's
revelation, that is for ourcompletion, a revelation that is
for God's revelation, that isfor our benefit, but also that
revelation is an essential partof God himself, that is the
revelatory aspect of his being.
So it's important that we knowthis.
We've talked about this beforein, I think, the episodes on
(06:22):
relationships.
Yeah Well, and this shows up inthe cate the episodes on
relationships.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, well, and this shows up in the catechism too.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
That's very essential , that this is part of our core
belief, in that God is notsomeone who says I'm going to
show myself and then not showmyself.
I'm going to reveal myself andnot reveal myself.
Part of God's essence is thisrevelatory aspect of his nature.
Right, and so then for us, then, as we look at this and we
(06:54):
examine this revelation, thatrevelation that God makes for
our well-being, for oursalvation, redemption,
restoration, the fact that Godreveals himself, this revelation
then expects a response from us, who he has revealed himself to
(07:15):
, right?
So, getting back to the30,000-foot overview of this, so
we have two foundational ideashere.
One is God's revelation.
Two is our response to thatrevelation.
For us, as believers, we seethat the response to God's
(07:38):
revelation is liturgy.
So after the fall, we see it inthe sacrifices of Cain and that
of Abel and the many iterationsafterwards, most famously the
sacrifice of Abram and thesmoking pot between these
(08:02):
animals that were cut in halfand stuff.
So I mean, this is all of thisis a response to God's
manifestation, right?
So there is liturgy.
So then you have the two coredocuments are De Verbum, which
is God's word, or the dogmaticconstitution on divine
revelation.
(08:22):
So revelation and then theresponse to that revelation we
call sacrosanctum concilium, orconstitution on the sacred
liturgy.
So, god's revelation, deiVerbum, our response,
sacrosanctum concilium.
And since God's revelationeventually makes us a people, a
(08:46):
community of belief, then thereis a development of a communal
response to this revelation, acommunal liturgy which we
celebrate as the Eucharist, anddifferent liturgical
celebrations that we have withinthe church, right that we have
within the church, right?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, would you liturgy, I guess I don't know
definitions simile kind of thing.
Would you just call it like theprocess, like the act of
something?
Right, because we have theliturgy the word liturgy of the
Eucharist?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Well, if we go back to one of the previous episodes,
we talked a little bit aboutliturgy and that liturgy,
originally the Greek word, waspublic service.
Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right.
(09:39):
Liturgia, was he paid for?
an apotheater or he paid for theconstruction of some patron or
patroness of something right,and that was for the public
service.
And later on we, as a communityof belief, then we took up that
(09:59):
idea of liturgy that this issort of again for the public
good, for the public service,this is the way that we respond
to God'sgy, that this is sort ofagain for the public good, for
the public service, this is theway that we respond to God's
revelation.
And this is where that wordliturgy now refers to that
religious act, this religiousresponse to God's revelation.
(10:22):
Okay, for our well-being, right?
Yeah.
So then, with the fact that weare a community of belief, okay,
we believe and we belong to thechurch, we also face the fact
that not everyone in the worldbelieves and therefore not
everyone belongs to thiscommunity.
(10:42):
So you have then De VerbumRevelation, sacrosanctum
Concilium.
Liturgy, which is the response,and the response that we make
to God, makes us a church.
And so that leads us to thenext two core documents Lumen
Gentium, which is the dogmaticconstitution on the church, that
(11:06):
is, the church defines itself.
So the lumen gentium is the waythe church, or the conciliar
fathers, verbalize and express.
This is how we understandourselves to be as church, as a
community of faith.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
So then that's lumen gentium, or the light to the
nations right, and then the nextcore document is Gaudium et
Spes, joy and hope, so it's thepastoral constitution on the
church in the modern world.
So okay, so you have revelation, you have a response, which is
liturgy.
(11:42):
The response to the revelationmakes us church, and then we, as
a church, we find ourselves ina world that doesn't believe.
So then now, who are we in aworld that doesn't believe?
How are we to live in the world, or what is our place in the
world?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
right, yeah, so it's like relationship to God,
relationship to the world.
Relationship to God defines whowe are and then relationship to
the world.
Well, relationship to Goddefines who we are and then
relationship to the world.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yes, so those are the four core documents and
everything sort of comes fromthat, right?
Yeah, so, as the conciliarfathers lead us through, de
Verbum, the Revelation, then theliturgy, sacrosancto Concilium,
then Lumen Gentium, definitionof the church, how we see
(12:29):
ourselves, define ourselves,then how we relate to the world.
So that's Gaudium et Spes.
Okay, so all of these, the coreelement, the core teaching, is
that all of this is for ourunderstanding, because our
vocation is to be holy, as ourHeavenly Father is holy.
So all of these constitutions,all of these documents really
(12:53):
are supposed to help us tounderstand that our vocation are
called to holiness.
So that's what the teaching isabout.
The purpose of Christianity isto imitate the perfect charity
of Christ.
Right?
That we be other Christs.
Okay, so, okay, so again, thisis the 30,000-foot view View
(13:20):
yeah, so from these fourdocuments, de verbum,
sacrosanctum conciliumlumigensium gaudium mispes, from
these four documents, all ofthe rest of the documents
naturally fall into threecategories.
Now it's important that peopleunderstand that all of these
(13:40):
documents are meant to be readin the context of all the other
documents.
You are not to take onedocument and extract it from the
rest.
You're supposed to understandand read that document in the
light of everything else thathas been published.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
I wonder if people that make all the arguments and
stuff against Vatican II, ifthat's also something that they
do, they're cherry picking, andwhen you try and take something
that they do, they'recherry-picking and when you try
and take something out ofcontext.
It's easy to make it.
It's proof, texting right.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
You can find anything you want to prove your point or
to argue, whatever right.
So it's all contextual.
Okay.
So now, from these fourdocuments we have, the other
documents fall into threecategories.
One, the people of God, thechurch, those who believe, and
then the documents having to dowith the people of God are the
documents on bishops, on priests, on the laity and on religious.
(14:36):
And then the next category isthe mission of the people of God
.
So the documents under thiscategory are the documents on
the training of priests, thedocuments on education, the
documents on socialcommunication and the documents
on missionary activity.
Then the third category, thepeople of God in relation with
(15:01):
those outside of the faith.
So these documents are onreligious liberty, on ecumenism,
on our relationship with theEastern Rites in union with Rome
, on our relationship withnon-Christian churches and
religions.
So those are the three generalcategories then.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Right, yeah, okay, bertha is joining us.
Come here, bertha, come here.
She's so talkative I don't knowif you can hear her on the mic.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
No, I can't, I can't hear her she's good, okay, so
that's the 30,000-foot overviewof that right.
As I said before, very broadbrushstrokes.
And again I have to emphasize,all the documents should be read
(15:57):
in the context of all the otherdocuments.
So there's a lot of reading todo, a lot of studying to do.
People are still studying,Books are still being published
on these documents.
So now a little bit ofbackground on the Second Vatican
Council.
So the first Ecumenical Councilof the Vatican, or Vatican I,
(16:22):
was convened by Pope Pius IX onJune 29, 1868, because of the
rising threat of the Kingdom ofItaly's encroachment upon the
papal states.
Way back then there was a lotof territory of Italy that
belonged under the pope as a, asa state, right, yeah, as a
(16:49):
state and for for context, whenwas the uh, the french
revolution?
oh, my goodness that was it'sthe 1870.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Well, because it was kind of long along, it was way
before it.
Yeah, because 1870?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Well, because it was kind of long.
It was way before, yeah,because 1870, we have the
Franco-Prussian War, and so thiswas already after Napoleon had
taken power.
So those are already thedifferent civil wars in France
too.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So this is a the reason I bring it up.
This is a serious time in thechurch Like there are a lot of
things all around the worldgoing on.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah, and the church is A lot of revolution, right.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah, getting kind of beat up.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
And so the reason Pope Pius called it was because
of the threat of the Italianstates against the papal states,
states against the papal states.
And what happened was napoleonthe third, and this is in 1870.
(17:53):
Napoleon the third hadstationed french troops in rome
to protect the pope from theitalians.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
So it's kind of funny yeah, it is so.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
The council ended in 1870 because of the
Franco-Prussian War.
Because of that war, napoleonhad to pull out all his French
troops that he had stationed inRome for the Pope's protection.
So he needed them to fight hiswar.
And as soon as Napoleon IIIpulled the french troops out,
(18:24):
the italian national army seizedthe papal states, they seized
rome, and so the council ended.
They couldn't, they couldn't,they couldn't continue because
of the threat of their lives, uh, and their well-being, right.
So that's why they, theystopped, that's why vatican one
was never really officiallyended.
(18:46):
So the issues that the councilwere able to address before the
ending were those of the rolesof the papacy and the
infallibility of the petrineoffice and the condemnation of
the errors found in many of themodern philosophical trends
rationalism, communism,materialism, secularism.
These were the things that wereon the agenda for them, as
(19:11):
conciliar fathers, to addressand because of the abrupt
closing, many of these pastoralissues that were on the agenda
were left undressed.
They did define papalinfallibility and the role of
the papacy, and this is wherethe old Catholics split from the
church, because they could notaccept papacy, this teaching
(19:35):
right of papal infallibility,and so that's where we begin to
have some schism.
Some people start leavingbecause, again, they weren't
able to work it out, theyweren't able to have the council
to discuss all of these things,and so, as it's left abruptly,
there is this reaction to thatit's okay, that was in 1870.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
So 88 years later, yeah, 88 years and two world
wars later.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yes, on October 28th 1958, angelo Cardinal Roncalli,
who was the Patriarch of Venice,was elected Pope and he took
the name of John XXIII and hesucceeded the saintly but very
severe Pope Pius XII.
(20:24):
Yeah, but praise God, becauseof Pope Pius XII's encyclical
Divino Afflanti Spirituencyclical Divino Afflante
Spiritu.
He encouraged a lot of biblicalstudies or before you couldn't
do it without permission, and sohe really opened up this whole
(20:45):
idea of biblical studies.
That actually began theliturgical movements and the
liturgical reform, becausepeople were actually going back
to the original manuscripts andstudying the original
manuscripts and there's a lot ofbiblical studies that were now
being undertaken mm-hmm okay, soanyway.
So Roncalli is elected Pope, andhe was elected.
(21:09):
He was an older man and so theyfigured he would not last long,
so they he was known as acaretaker Pope.
Like we didn't, they couldn'tfigure out who they wanted to
elect pope, so they elected himas like an interim right.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, he's a safe bet .
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yeah, he's a safe bet , he won't be around much longer
anyway.
So three months after he'selected, on January 25th 1959,
on the Feast of the Conversionof St Paul, pope John XXIII met
with a small group of cardinalsat the Basilica of St Paul,
outside the Walls, duringVespers, at the conclusion of
(21:47):
the Week of Prayer for ChristianUnity.
And at this Vespers, thisPrayer for Unity, to end the
week of prayer for unity,christian unity, he announced
three central points of hispontificate One, the convocation
of a diocesan synod that word,that synod for the diocese of
(22:10):
Rome.
Two, the reform of the Code ofCanon Law of 1917.
Two, the reform of the Code ofCanon Law of 1917.
And three, the convocation ofan ecumenical council.
So basically, what had not beencarried out 88 years before,
now he's taking it upon himselfto.
We're going to come back andwe're going to address those
(22:31):
issues, okay going to addressthose issues.
Okay, so the council wassummoned by the apostolic
constitution, umani Salutis, onDecember 25th 1961.
And it took two years to makeall the preparations.
So the number of courtattendees, once it was convoked,
(22:55):
once the Second Vatican Councilwas official, the core number
of attendees was 987 bishops.
Later, sessions varied from2,100 to 2,300 bishops.
Also attending were 17 orthodoxchurches and protestant
(23:17):
denominations sent as observers.
Three dozen representatives ofother christian communities
attended the opening session andthat number of christian
communities attended grew to ahundred by the end of the fourth
session.
So people were coming.
They couldn't vote, but theycould come and see the process.
(23:38):
And so, basically, this is howthings, this is how the church
works, this is how we work.
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Why do you think so many?
I don't want to say outsiders,but you know what I mean.
Why do you think so many wereinvited?
But you know what I mean.
Why do you think?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
so many were invited.
Well, I think part of it, too,was instead of the closed door
mentality which you know.
What does that do?
Makes you suspicious?
What are they hiding?
And so this was like no, thisis kind of, we would say, a
transparency right in today'slanguage.
So the Pope wanted there to begreater transparency for people
(24:19):
to see exactly how christ'schurch functions.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Yeah, I used to work with somebody who would say in
the absence of information,people will use their
imagination to fill in all theblanks exactly people will make
up.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
So if you give them the information, then they know
the facts.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
So in getting ready for the council, then before it
opens, john XXIII had handedover the responsibility for
planning the planning of thecouncil to the Roman Curia was
what was called a preparatory Ialways want to say preparatory
(24:59):
and that's wrong preparatorycommission.
In preparation, preparatorycommission drafted documents or
they're called schemas, likerough drafts and worked to
ensure that the council kept thestatus quo.
In other words, the preparatorycommission did not want any
changes.
So the rules for the contractwith the council were not well
(25:19):
developed and the Curia decidedthat it would be held in Latin,
without the use of translators.
So because of this walled-offmentality, many bishops and
theologians feared that thecouncil was doomed Like okay,
you're setting us up for failure.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah, now I don't want to skip too far ahead or
anything, but it was Pope John,or?
Wait, who was it?
Pope John, the 23rd, 12th?
No, who's the 12th Pius?
The 12th that called it Piusthe 12th.
So he called it.
So we've transitioned into anew pope.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
He called it Pius XII .
So he called it.
So we've transitioned into anew pope.
No, no, no, no.
John XXIII convoked the SecondVatican Council.
He dies, and then we elect PopePaul VI.
So during the Second VaticanCouncil, there's a transition
from John XXIII to.
Paul VI.
Now the first Vatican Council,the first Vatican Council that
(26:21):
was convoked by Pius IX, the onethat was ended abruptly.
So they had to officially closethat council at the meeting of
the Second Vatican Council andbegin the Second Council.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Okay, but it was Pius XII who starts this whole
process in 58.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Pius XII with his encyclical Divino Afflanti
Spiritu, which was the openingof biblical studies, and it's
because of that, all of a suddenthere's this huge excitement
about Scripture and going backto the sources and there's this
huge movement in Germany and inFrance and basically the
(27:04):
liturgical reform actually beganin Germany and France in the
40s.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
So did he die shortly after.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
He died in no, he died in 58.
And Devon of Flanti Spirit wasin 43.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
But these are some of the contributing streams that
brings the Council together, theSecond Vatican Council together
.
Yeah, so then, on October 11th1962, 92 years after the sudden
ending of the First VaticanCouncil, john XXIII convoked the
(27:44):
Second Vatican Council with theopening speech Gaudet Mater
Ecclesia.
Mother Church rejoices in theconvocation of this new
ecumenical council.
Okay, okay.
So remember, the PreparatoryCommission wanted everything in
Latin.
They didn't want any changes,and so the first order of
(28:06):
business on the first day of thecouncil was to elect 16 bishops
to serve, with eight appointedmembers on the 10 conciliar
commissions, a total of 240members.
This is a lot of prep work.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah Well.
So now looking back at thenotes too, so when Pope John
XXIII, when all the people wereinvited and there's 987 bishops
and all that, that's not evenVatican II.
Yet it's the beginning.
Yeah, so it's like they'restill just getting started.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah, this is the very beginning.
We're all coming together.
They're trying to get thedrafts together.
What are we going to talk about?
Right?
And so the first order ofbusiness then on the first day
is to elect 16 bishops, right?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yeah no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
The commission on the apostolate of the laity.
This was very well thought out.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I mean this was encompassing right.
There were some of the bishopswho wanted those who served on
the Preparatory Commission to besimply re-elected, those that
had already been appointed byPope John XXIII.
Then the senior French cardinalAkhil Lainart addressed all of
(29:59):
the council and he said that thebishops could not intelligently
vote for strangers.
He asked that the vote bepostponed to allow all the
bishops a chance to draw uptheir own lists.
So German Cardinal JosephFrings seconded that proposal
and the vote for the electionwas postponed until they got all
(30:23):
these things worked out.
So the first meeting of thecouncil adjourned after only 15
minutes.
I can't vote for somebody Idon't know.
So the majority of the bishopsarranged for recess and met in
five different language groups,with each group proposing a
slate of their own candidates.
This resulted in a moreideological and geographic
(30:46):
representation of the church.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
That's the work of the Spirit, right there.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, you know.
What's so cool about all thisto me is like have you ever
tried to get a group of peopleto get anything accomplished?
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Oh yes, I've said on many committees yeah, it's
insane, it's a pain.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Yeah, it doesn't matter if they're a bunch of
kindergartners or a bunch of40-year-olds.
It's almost impossible to getanything done, and this shows
that our church is a worldwidechurch.
Yes, and so you've got thelanguage groups where it's like,
okay, what's the closestlanguage that I speak, the best
that I can go buddy up in.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
And it was amazing that again, immediately in the
first day, within the first fewminutes, like no, no, that's not
going to work, so let's do itthis way.
And obviously it was the HolySpirit inspiring these people
and moving these people so thatthere is a greater
representation of the church onthe commissions, right, yeah?
(31:41):
So then the first session ofthe Second Vatican Council
adjourned on December 8, 1962,and work began for the session
slated for 1963.
The preparations were haltedupon the death of Pope John
XXIII on June 3rd 1963, becausean ecumenical council is
(32:06):
dissolved automatically upon thedeath of the pope who convened
the council.
So the idea was okay, we'redone, the pope's dead.
So Cardinal Montini, theArchbishop of Milan, was elected
on June 21st 1963, and he tookthe name of Paul VI and
(32:26):
immediately announced thecontinuation of the council.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Yeah, can you imagine if everyone's like oh yeah,
womp womp, we tried.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Again.
So another beautiful thing,another work of the Holy Spirit.
Many of the bishops used thisas an opportunity for their own
ongoing formation and education.
They were able to attendevening lectures given by the
(33:02):
world's leading scholars.
They called them Peretti'stheological expert or advisor,
and there were several hundredPeretti at the council that were
teaching, catechizing,educating which is the latest
research?
Right, the latest research onall these different various
topics, because now they couldright Latest research on all
these different, various topics,because now they could right,
(33:26):
and according to languages,different languages.
So yeah, it was wonderful.
So they were going to be inRome for several months a year
from 1962 to 1965, for a totalof four sessions.
So another contributing factorto the council's success was
that the bishops were seated byseniority and therefore they
(33:47):
found themselves sitting withbishops from different countries
, which contributed to thebroadening of the horizons as
they began to see the differentcultural and language
differences and as they got toknow each other and explain to
each other the church thatthey're coming from and the
reality of the church that theywere coming from.
That really helped a lot intothe broadening of the
(34:10):
understanding of the church asuniversal right.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, yeah, because bishops in Africa deal with
completely different problemsthan bishops from California.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Correct, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, bishops from
California, Correct, yeah, yeah,yeah, there was a minority of
bishops, and they're everywhere.
You'll always find them in anygroup.
There was a minority of bishopswho were resistant to any type
of ecclesial reform.
Edward Skillebeck, in his bookthe Real Achievement of Vatican
(34:39):
II, states during the finalweeks of the third session, it
became doubtful even whether theunofficially planned
promulgation of fiveconstitutions and decrees would
take place at all.
Some of the commissions indeedhad to reckon with anything
between three and five,000 Modior amendments.
(35:05):
So when you present aconstitution, you present a
charter, you present there's adocument.
So then what happens is peoplewill send in amendment, like an
amendment to the document, tothe commission that's in charge
of it.
So what Skilabek is saying isthat some of these commissions
were receiving 3,000 to 5,000amendments.
(35:26):
Like that's impossible toprocess all that.
So they were being bogged downby all these.
You know, and who knows, itmight have been like well, you
need to put a comma here andthis should be a semicolon, and
you know all that stuff that canhappen when you're trying to to
publish a document that'swritten by a, a committee yeah,
yeah yes, don't want to do thatanymore but it's it's amazing
(35:53):
that it it worked.
Yes if anything, it just provesthat the holy spirit is very
present and alive in the churchof Christ, because this would be
impossible anywhere else or byany other body right?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah, and I've heard somebody say that the surest
proof of the church is for howlong it's been run by a bunch of
idiots who are trying to ruinit and it's still there.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
It's still there.
We've tried to kill it for2,000 years and we haven't been
able to do it.
Yeah, so, okay, lumen Gentium.
So Lumen Gentium was approvedand promulgated at the end of
the third session September,november of 1964, along with the
decree on ecumenism and thedecree on the Eastern churches.
(36:39):
So those were the threedocuments that were published
from the third session.
Now, why is it difficult tograsp the Council's teachings?
So there's three contributingfactors to this difficulty.
The first is that both Trentand Vatican I, the First Vatican
(37:06):
Council, were grounded in atheological scholasticism that
gave to each council a real, iflimited, conceptual unity.
They were all coming from thesame mentality.
By contrast, in the text of theSecond Vatican Council, we find
(37:29):
biblical references,alternating with historical
exposition, alternating withanalysis or analyses of
contemporary issues, citationsof previous councils Half of
them were from Trent and theFirst Vatican Council and
references to papal texts.
And half of the texts, half ofthe papal texts that were cited,
(37:51):
were texts of Pius XII, the onethat wrote Divino Flantis
Piditum.
Okay, so that's one of thereasons why it's difficult to
understand the Second VaticanCouncil and why it's so
different from the othercouncils.
Another difficulty is a lot ofcompromises were made to gain
(38:13):
more than two-thirds majority.
Now, this was something thatPaul VI pushed.
Paul VI pushed, he wanted agreater unity in the
publications, and so whathappens is usually in a
situation like this sometimessome things pass by simple
majority.
He wanted two-thirds majority,which means a lot more work had
(38:37):
to be done to please a lot morepeople, and so a lot of
compromises were made to be ableto get these things published,
the documents published.
And the third reason for thedifficulty in understanding the
Council's teaching is that andthis is what I said at the
beginning each document shouldbe read in the context of the
totality of the documents.
(39:00):
So if you really want tounderstand Lumen Gentium, you
have to go back and you read DeVerbum and Sacrosanctum
Concilium to be able tounderstand Lumen Gentium, to be
able to go forward and readGaudium et Spes, and so yeah,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Can I pick your brain a little bit, mm-hmm.
So what do you like?
I can imagine somebody sittinghere listening to this, maybe
especially if they'renon-Catholic and say something,
or and focus on the way that youchose to phrase it, that there
(39:41):
had to be compromises, mm-hmm,that there had to be compromises
and they had to get a majorityvote where you could argue with
Protestantism or non-CatholicChristian denominations within
that one denomination.
In theory, right, everything'sin theory.
You're not compromising becauseeveryone's on the same page,
(40:04):
right?
So why do you think, before Ieven ask, I can, even I can see
now pope francis is taking avery kind of similar approach,
like the openness and thelistening and the relationship
(40:24):
to the world, not just kind ofclosed in and like who are we to
us?
Speaker 1 (40:28):
but who are?
Speaker 2 (40:29):
we to the world.
So I can see all of that stuffstarting to develop over time
and I can see it influencing him.
So why is this significant?
Why is it important that thechurch, the bishops and
everybody compromised on some ofthese topics?
Or that like is it a bad thing?
No, two-thirds.
(40:49):
So if somebody, if something,only passed with 66%, is that a
bad thing?
No, that a third of the churchdidn't agree with it.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
No, no, I think it's part of and it's part of the
work of the Spirit too, likeokay, and it's part of the work
of the spirit too, like okay.
So as part of the whole idea of, I have to understand that this
is the work of the spirit andthe work of the spirit is
something beyond mycomprehension.
I have to be docile to thatright.
And so the compromise, I think,is not a bad thing.
I think the fact that you gettwo-thirds majority is
(41:17):
miraculous in itself.
But because what were thecompromises is miraculous in
itself.
But because what were thecompromises?
It's a matter of a lot of.
It had to do with expression,how it's written, how it's
expressed.
What is, is it a negativeexpression?
Is it a positive expression?
(41:39):
How is it being communicated?
For example, in Trent, whichwas a reform council as well, in
Trent, the first thing thechurch does is it defines itself
as a hierarchy.
It defines the hierarchy of thechurch.
That's the first thing it does,and it had to because it was
responding to the questioning ofthe hierarchy by the
(42:02):
Reformation or the ProtestantRevolution.
But that's not the point here,right?
And so now it's not a matter ofexpressing ourselves as
hierarchy, it's expressingourselves as the people of God,
which is a different.
It's the same truth, but it isa different way of manifesting
that truth.
Instead of pushing oremphasizing the hierarchy,
(42:28):
you're emphasizing the commoncall that we all have and share
through the gift of baptism,that we're all made a people of
God because of the revelation ofGod's Word to us.
So the compromise is not somuch compromises of value.
I think a lot of the compromiseshad to do with what we would
say today as a narrative.
What is the narrative?
(42:48):
How is it being presented?
Right?
So again, we still have them.
In the church today, we havepeople you know, the crotchety,
old, bitter person or bishop orcardinal or whatever who
absolutely refuses, you know, totake into consideration the
(43:08):
work of the Spirit and justrefuses to budge because they're
incapable of change orincapable of allowing the church
to move forward.
Not that they're all wrong Imean a lot of it has to do with
(43:33):
the lack of understanding oreducation or catechesis, or even
fear and insecurity.
Right, and so it's not thatthey're evil, it's just like
they're stuck in a place thatthey're really the idea of a
church that is dynamic andmoving and growing and still
essentially the same church thatChrist founded, and that's
where you have the difficulty Alot of people.
We've always done it this way.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Yeah, and that's the argument, that's always the
argument.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
We've always done it this way.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Yeah, well, and what's kind of funny to that
argument is regarding arguingwe've always done it this way
too.
We've always argued about itRight, and you've even expressed
certain things, and now it'sescaping me off the top of my
head, but I remember you talkingonce you're like yeah, I don't
like that this is expressed thisway, whatever in the world it
(44:24):
was, and so some of thecompromises I'm sure are like
that, like should we use thelanguage economy of salvation
Right, or should we usesomething?
Speaker 1 (44:33):
else.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Right, you know like what's more descriptive Right,
because you can say it like youwere saying, in the affirmative
Right or in the negative.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
But you Like you were saying in the affirmative or in
the negative, but you're stillcommunicating the same thing.
Yeah, for example, in theconsecration.
So we've done away with cup, wehad cup and we've gone back to
chalice.
Why?
There's no real good reasonother than that it's—the Latin
(45:01):
says chalice, and so we want to,and so we want to Latinize our
English, which is not a realreason for it.
But anyway, okay.
And then the Semitism to shedthis blood.
We had before for all, which isthe meaning of it.
But we went back to theSemitism which is for many, okay
.
So now you have to explain topeople well, for many is a
(45:22):
Semitism which is for many, okay.
So now you have to explain topeople well, for many is a
Semitism, that actually meansfor all.
So I go like okay, so whydidn't we just keep for all,
instead of now making it, yeah,it doesn't make sense?
Like, okay, this is what I haveto do and I do it and I don't
agree with it.
But okay, this is the choicethat they've made and the same
(45:43):
thing.
Like that.
I mean, it's a different way.
Again, the compromises at timesare not so much a compromise of
some theological essentialvalue as much as it is.
What is the narrative.
How is it being presented?
Speaker 2 (45:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Let me ask you this before wekeep going Is this a good place
to to maybe stop this episode?
Is there something else youwant to kind?
Speaker 1 (46:08):
of.
I think, yeah, we couldprobably stop here and then go
on, because the next thing wouldbe just really going over the
outline of the dogmaticconstitution, the different
chapters, and then start goinginto that.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Yeah man, I love this stuff, me too.
To that yeah man, I love thisstuff, me too.
And I've missed you.
Don't ever leave again or takeme with you, that'd be there you
go, there you go I can be your,uh, my chauffeur.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, well cool.
I'm super looking forward tothe rest of these because we've
(46:40):
you know, I would say weprobably have two days, two more
episodes worth.
Like, I love this stuff.
So thank you for this, thankyou for coming back, thank you
Everyone who joined us today.
Thank you for listening.
It really does mean a lot to usto know that somebody somewhere
out there is listening.
(47:01):
We appreciate it, so pleaseshare us with others.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Please share.
How many countries did you saywe were?
I heard you the other day.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Oh yes, 47.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
47 countries 47.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
And I would say, especially on that note, with
sharing, pray for everyone,because some of these countries
are places where I don't thinkChristians are very safe.
Right, correct so yeah, it'spretty cool, the internet.
Yeah, all right, father, I'llsee you next time.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Good night, god bless All right.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
God bless, bye, bye.
Welcome to our podcast friends.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you like our podcast andwant to support us, please
subscribe or follow us, andplease don't forget to click the
notification bell so you willbe notified when new episodes
release.
Thank you and God bless TacoCasa.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
So good, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining me.
My friend the friar, he's back.
He's back Father StephenSanchez, a discalced Carmelite
priest.
Good afternoon, good evening,good evening.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yes, it is evening, You've been gone for so long.
Yes, been doing a lot oftraveling.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
How many states have you been to?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
this year alone One, two.
Well, of course, arkansas, thenNorth Carolina and Georgia.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
And then I'm going to Boston next week.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And Texas.
That's what four?
Texas, yeah, and you've beensick 17 times.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, that COVID kind of got me, really, knocked me
on my behind.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, so there's that .
And now the spores.
Yes, you don't look like azombie.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yet See, that's externally.
It hasn't broken through yetit's still gestating.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Oh, my goodness, I've missed you so much, man.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Um, we have talked about all sorts of things
without you, and now yes, I'mwaiting for the um Holy sees
approval that I begin theinquisition for you and Mark.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
We'll have that talk later.
All the the heresies aboutaliens and stuff, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
We'll get back to that.
We'll come back to that.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Okay, Well, before you righteously smite me how
about you teacheth me aboutlumingentium?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, lumumen Gentium , when we first talked about
this, we had said that I wantedto talk on chapter 8, which has
to do with the Blessed VirginMary and the Church and Mary as
the icon of the church right andthe importance of a
Christological Mariology, or anunderstanding of Mary within the
(02:49):
scope of the church as thepeople of God.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, when was that?
That was a while.
I mean everything, because Ihaven't talked to you in so long
.
It was a while back, it was awhile.
It was one of those things thatwe actually said, hey, we
should talk about that, weshould, yes, and we remembered.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
To talk about this, right?
So then I began working on that, and then, as I was working on
that, I go like ah, it's allcontextual, I need to
contextualize this, so I shouldprobably do an introduction to
Lumen Gentium.
So I said, okay, so, but I justcan't do an introduction.
I should probably do a littlebit on chapter one, a little bit
on chapter four, a little biton chapter five, so I can
actually get to chapter eight.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So yeah, well, and you have to understand it in
historical context as well.
Yes, the context of it all,because you just yeah yeah, yeah
, but I'm really excited becausethe um, like I always, I get to
cheat right like.
I've read the show notes, Iknow what, I know what we're
going to talk about, but thesedocuments are amazing.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
They are.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I don't know.
Well, I would have to say Ihave a feeling that people who
are all on the bandwagon of, oh,Vatican II was heretical
nonsense and all that kind ofstuff, right the end of the
church, blah, blah, blah I don'tknow if they've read the
documents.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Most likely not.
Most people have not, so we'renot going to cover them all.
That would be nice, though wecould probably do a deep dive
into the Vatican documents, butanyway.
So I want to do thisintroduction to Lumen Gentium,
which is the dogmaticconstitution on the church which
(04:31):
was promulgated by Pope Paul VIon November 21st 1964.
But before we dive into theintro to this document, lumen
Gentium, first I want to sort oflay out the logic of the
conciliar fathers and the mannerin which we should understand
(04:53):
and approach these documents.
Now I'll start off by sayingthat these are very, very broad
strokes, a very general way ofapproaching the documents.
But it's helpful to have thissort of 30,000-foot kind of like
overview and look at this.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
So of all this, there are 16 documents that were
published.
So at the center of all thesedocuments, at the center of this
thing, we have two primarydocuments, and it has to do with
the core belief that God hasrevealed himself to us.
And so if God has revealedhimself to us, then that this
(05:39):
revelation that God manifestshimself, he manifests himself to
us for our salvation, ourredemption or our restoration,
whichever word you want to useto communicate that inner
yearning for a communicationwith or connection with the
(06:00):
supernatural, for our completion, a revelation that is for God's
revelation, that is for ourcompletion, a revelation that is
for God's revelation, that isfor our benefit, but also that
revelation is an essential partof God himself, that is the
revelatory aspect of his being.
So it's important that we knowthis.
We've talked about this beforein, I think, the episodes on
(06:22):
relationships.
Yeah Well, and this shows up inthe cate the episodes on
relationships.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, well, and this shows up in the catechism too.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
That's very essential , that this is part of our core
belief, in that God is notsomeone who says I'm going to
show myself and then not showmyself.
I'm going to reveal myself andnot reveal myself.
Part of God's essence is thisrevelatory aspect of his nature.
Right, and so then for us, then, as we look at this and we
(06:54):
examine this revelation, thatrevelation that God makes for
our well-being, for oursalvation, redemption,
restoration, the fact that Godreveals himself, this revelation
then expects a response from us, who he has revealed himself to
(07:15):
, right?
So, getting back to the30,000-foot overview of this, so
we have two foundational ideashere.
One is God's revelation.
Two is our response to thatrevelation.
For us, as believers, we seethat the response to God's
(07:38):
revelation is liturgy.
So after the fall, we see it inthe sacrifices of Cain and that
of Abel and the many iterationsafterwards, most famously the
sacrifice of Abram and thesmoking pot between these
(08:02):
animals that were cut in halfand stuff.
So I mean, this is all of thisis a response to God's
manifestation, right?
So there is liturgy.
So then you have the two coredocuments are De Verbum, which
is God's word, or the dogmaticconstitution on divine
revelation.
(08:22):
So revelation and then theresponse to that revelation we
call sacrosanctum concilium, orconstitution on the sacred
liturgy.
So, god's revelation, deiVerbum, our response,
sacrosanctum concilium.
And since God's revelationeventually makes us a people, a
(08:46):
community of belief, then thereis a development of a communal
response to this revelation, acommunal liturgy which we
celebrate as the Eucharist, anddifferent liturgical
celebrations that we have withinthe church, right that we have
within the church, right?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, would you liturgy, I guess I don't know
definitions simile kind of thing.
Would you just call it like theprocess, like the act of
something?
Right, because we have theliturgy the word liturgy of the
Eucharist?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Well, if we go back to one of the previous episodes,
we talked a little bit aboutliturgy and that liturgy,
originally the Greek word, waspublic service.
Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right.
(09:39):
Liturgia, was he paid for?
an apotheater or he paid for theconstruction of some patron or
patroness of something right,and that was for the public
service.
And later on we, as a communityof belief, then we took up that
(09:59):
idea of liturgy that this issort of again for the public
good, for the public service,this is the way that we respond
to God'sgy, that this is sort ofagain for the public good, for
the public service, this is theway that we respond to God's
revelation.
And this is where that wordliturgy now refers to that
religious act, this religiousresponse to God's revelation.
(10:22):
Okay, for our well-being, right?
Yeah.
So then, with the fact that weare a community of belief, okay,
we believe and we belong to thechurch, we also face the fact
that not everyone in the worldbelieves and therefore not
everyone belongs to thiscommunity.
(10:42):
So you have then De VerbumRevelation, sacrosanctum
Concilium.
Liturgy, which is the response,and the response that we make
to God, makes us a church.
And so that leads us to thenext two core documents Lumen
Gentium, which is the dogmaticconstitution on the church, that
(11:06):
is, the church defines itself.
So the lumen gentium is the waythe church, or the conciliar
fathers, verbalize and express.
This is how we understandourselves to be as church, as a
community of faith.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
So then that's lumen gentium, or the light to the
nations right, and then the nextcore document is Gaudium et
Spes, joy and hope, so it's thepastoral constitution on the
church in the modern world.
So okay, so you have revelation, you have a response, which is
liturgy.
(11:42):
The response to the revelationmakes us church, and then we, as
a church, we find ourselves ina world that doesn't believe.
So then now, who are we in aworld that doesn't believe?
How are we to live in the world, or what is our place in the
world?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
right, yeah, so it's like relationship to God,
relationship to the world.
Relationship to God defines whowe are and then relationship to
the world.
Well, relationship to Goddefines who we are and then
relationship to the world.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yes, so those are the four core documents and
everything sort of comes fromthat, right?
Yeah, so, as the conciliarfathers lead us through, de
Verbum, the Revelation, then theliturgy, sacrosancto Concilium,
then Lumen Gentium, definitionof the church, how we see
(12:29):
ourselves, define ourselves,then how we relate to the world.
So that's Gaudium et Spes.
Okay, so all of these, the coreelement, the core teaching, is
that all of this is for ourunderstanding, because our
vocation is to be holy, as ourHeavenly Father is holy.
So all of these constitutions,all of these documents really
(12:53):
are supposed to help us tounderstand that our vocation are
called to holiness.
So that's what the teaching isabout.
The purpose of Christianity isto imitate the perfect charity
of Christ.
Right?
That we be other Christs.
Okay, so, okay, so again, thisis the 30,000-foot view View
(13:20):
yeah, so from these fourdocuments, de verbum,
sacrosanctum conciliumlumigensium gaudium mispes, from
these four documents, all ofthe rest of the documents
naturally fall into threecategories.
Now it's important that peopleunderstand that all of these
(13:40):
documents are meant to be readin the context of all the other
documents.
You are not to take onedocument and extract it from the
rest.
You're supposed to understandand read that document in the
light of everything else thathas been published.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
I wonder if people that make all the arguments and
stuff against Vatican II, ifthat's also something that they
do, they're cherry picking, andwhen you try and take something
that they do, they'recherry-picking and when you try
and take something out ofcontext.
It's easy to make it.
It's proof, texting right.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
You can find anything you want to prove your point or
to argue, whatever right.
So it's all contextual.
Okay.
So now, from these fourdocuments we have, the other
documents fall into threecategories.
One, the people of God, thechurch, those who believe, and
then the documents having to dowith the people of God are the
documents on bishops, on priests, on the laity and on religious.
(14:36):
And then the next category isthe mission of the people of God
.
So the documents under thiscategory are the documents on
the training of priests, thedocuments on education, the
documents on socialcommunication and the documents
on missionary activity.
Then the third category, thepeople of God in relation with
(15:01):
those outside of the faith.
So these documents are onreligious liberty, on ecumenism,
on our relationship with theEastern Rites in union with Rome
, on our relationship withnon-Christian churches and
religions.
So those are the three generalcategories then.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Right, yeah, okay, bertha is joining us.
Come here, bertha, come here.
She's so talkative I don't knowif you can hear her on the mic.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
No, I can't, I can't hear her she's good, okay, so
that's the 30,000-foot overviewof that right.
As I said before, very broadbrushstrokes.
And again I have to emphasize,all the documents should be read
(15:57):
in the context of all the otherdocuments.
So there's a lot of reading todo, a lot of studying to do.
People are still studying,Books are still being published
on these documents.
So now a little bit ofbackground on the Second Vatican
Council.
So the first Ecumenical Councilof the Vatican, or Vatican I,
(16:22):
was convened by Pope Pius IX onJune 29, 1868, because of the
rising threat of the Kingdom ofItaly's encroachment upon the
papal states.
Way back then there was a lotof territory of Italy that
belonged under the pope as a, asa state, right, yeah, as a
(16:49):
state and for for context, whenwas the uh, the french
revolution?
oh, my goodness that was it'sthe 1870.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Well, because it was kind of long along, it was way
before it.
Yeah, because 1870?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Well, because it was kind of long.
It was way before, yeah,because 1870, we have the
Franco-Prussian War, and so thiswas already after Napoleon had
taken power.
So those are already thedifferent civil wars in France
too.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So this is a the reason I bring it up.
This is a serious time in thechurch Like there are a lot of
things all around the worldgoing on.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah, and the church is A lot of revolution, right.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah, getting kind of beat up.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
And so the reason Pope Pius called it was because
of the threat of the Italianstates against the papal states,
states against the papal states.
And what happened was napoleonthe third, and this is in 1870.
(17:53):
Napoleon the third hadstationed french troops in rome
to protect the pope from theitalians.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
So it's kind of funny yeah, it is so.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
The council ended in 1870 because of the
Franco-Prussian War.
Because of that war, napoleonhad to pull out all his French
troops that he had stationed inRome for the Pope's protection.
So he needed them to fight hiswar.
And as soon as Napoleon IIIpulled the french troops out,
(18:24):
the italian national army seizedthe papal states, they seized
rome, and so the council ended.
They couldn't, they couldn't,they couldn't continue because
of the threat of their lives, uh, and their well-being, right.
So that's why they, theystopped, that's why vatican one
was never really officiallyended.
(18:46):
So the issues that the councilwere able to address before the
ending were those of the rolesof the papacy and the
infallibility of the petrineoffice and the condemnation of
the errors found in many of themodern philosophical trends
rationalism, communism,materialism, secularism.
These were the things that wereon the agenda for them, as
(19:11):
conciliar fathers, to addressand because of the abrupt
closing, many of these pastoralissues that were on the agenda
were left undressed.
They did define papalinfallibility and the role of
the papacy, and this is wherethe old Catholics split from the
church, because they could notaccept papacy, this teaching
(19:35):
right of papal infallibility,and so that's where we begin to
have some schism.
Some people start leavingbecause, again, they weren't
able to work it out, theyweren't able to have the council
to discuss all of these things,and so, as it's left abruptly,
there is this reaction to thatit's okay, that was in 1870.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
So 88 years later, yeah, 88 years and two world
wars later.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yes, on October 28th 1958, angelo Cardinal Roncalli,
who was the Patriarch of Venice,was elected Pope and he took
the name of John XXIII and hesucceeded the saintly but very
severe Pope Pius XII.
(20:24):
Yeah, but praise God, becauseof Pope Pius XII's encyclical
Divino Afflanti Spirituencyclical Divino Afflante
Spiritu.
He encouraged a lot of biblicalstudies or before you couldn't
do it without permission, and sohe really opened up this whole
(20:45):
idea of biblical studies.
That actually began theliturgical movements and the
liturgical reform, becausepeople were actually going back
to the original manuscripts andstudying the original
manuscripts and there's a lot ofbiblical studies that were now
being undertaken mm-hmm okay, soanyway.
So Roncalli is elected Pope, andhe was elected.
(21:09):
He was an older man and so theyfigured he would not last long,
so they he was known as acaretaker Pope.
Like we didn't, they couldn'tfigure out who they wanted to
elect pope, so they elected himas like an interim right.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, he's a safe bet .
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yeah, he's a safe bet , he won't be around much longer
anyway.
So three months after he'selected, on January 25th 1959,
on the Feast of the Conversionof St Paul, pope John XXIII met
with a small group of cardinalsat the Basilica of St Paul,
outside the Walls, duringVespers, at the conclusion of
(21:47):
the Week of Prayer for ChristianUnity.
And at this Vespers, thisPrayer for Unity, to end the
week of prayer for unity,christian unity, he announced
three central points of hispontificate One, the convocation
of a diocesan synod that word,that synod for the diocese of
(22:10):
Rome.
Two, the reform of the Code ofCanon Law of 1917.
Two, the reform of the Code ofCanon Law of 1917.
And three, the convocation ofan ecumenical council.
So basically, what had not beencarried out 88 years before,
now he's taking it upon himselfto.
We're going to come back andwe're going to address those
(22:31):
issues, okay going to addressthose issues.
Okay, so the council wassummoned by the apostolic
constitution, umani Salutis, onDecember 25th 1961.
And it took two years to makeall the preparations.
So the number of courtattendees, once it was convoked,
(22:55):
once the Second Vatican Councilwas official, the core number
of attendees was 987 bishops.
Later, sessions varied from2,100 to 2,300 bishops.
Also attending were 17 orthodoxchurches and protestant
(23:17):
denominations sent as observers.
Three dozen representatives ofother christian communities
attended the opening session andthat number of christian
communities attended grew to ahundred by the end of the fourth
session.
So people were coming.
They couldn't vote, but theycould come and see the process.
(23:38):
And so, basically, this is howthings, this is how the church
works, this is how we work.
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Why do you think so many?
I don't want to say outsiders,but you know what I mean.
Why do you think so many wereinvited?
But you know what I mean.
Why do you think?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
so many were invited.
Well, I think part of it, too,was instead of the closed door
mentality which you know.
What does that do?
Makes you suspicious?
What are they hiding?
And so this was like no, thisis kind of, we would say, a
transparency right in today'slanguage.
So the Pope wanted there to begreater transparency for people
(24:19):
to see exactly how christ'schurch functions.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Yeah, I used to work with somebody who would say in
the absence of information,people will use their
imagination to fill in all theblanks exactly people will make
up.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
So if you give them the information, then they know
the facts.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
So in getting ready for the council, then before it
opens, john XXIII had handedover the responsibility for
planning the planning of thecouncil to the Roman Curia was
what was called a preparatory Ialways want to say preparatory
(24:59):
and that's wrong preparatorycommission.
In preparation, preparatorycommission drafted documents or
they're called schemas, likerough drafts and worked to
ensure that the council kept thestatus quo.
In other words, the preparatorycommission did not want any
changes.
So the rules for the contractwith the council were not well
(25:19):
developed and the Curia decidedthat it would be held in Latin,
without the use of translators.
So because of this walled-offmentality, many bishops and
theologians feared that thecouncil was doomed Like okay,
you're setting us up for failure.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah, now I don't want to skip too far ahead or
anything, but it was Pope John,or?
Wait, who was it?
Pope John, the 23rd, 12th?
No, who's the 12th Pius?
The 12th that called it Piusthe 12th.
So he called it.
So we've transitioned into anew pope.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
He called it Pius XII .
So he called it.
So we've transitioned into anew pope.
No, no, no, no.
John XXIII convoked the SecondVatican Council.
He dies, and then we elect PopePaul VI.
So during the Second VaticanCouncil, there's a transition
from John XXIII to.
Paul VI.
Now the first Vatican Council,the first Vatican Council that
(26:21):
was convoked by Pius IX, the onethat was ended abruptly.
So they had to officially closethat council at the meeting of
the Second Vatican Council andbegin the Second Council.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Okay, but it was Pius XII who starts this whole
process in 58.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Pius XII with his encyclical Divino Afflanti
Spiritu, which was the openingof biblical studies, and it's
because of that, all of a suddenthere's this huge excitement
about Scripture and going backto the sources and there's this
huge movement in Germany and inFrance and basically the
(27:04):
liturgical reform actually beganin Germany and France in the
40s.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
So did he die shortly after.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
He died in no, he died in 58.
And Devon of Flanti Spirit wasin 43.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
But these are some of the contributing streams that
brings the Council together, theSecond Vatican Council together
.
Yeah, so then, on October 11th1962, 92 years after the sudden
ending of the First VaticanCouncil, john XXIII convoked the
(27:44):
Second Vatican Council with theopening speech Gaudet Mater
Ecclesia.
Mother Church rejoices in theconvocation of this new
ecumenical council.
Okay, okay.
So remember, the PreparatoryCommission wanted everything in
Latin.
They didn't want any changes,and so the first order of
(28:06):
business on the first day of thecouncil was to elect 16 bishops
to serve, with eight appointedmembers on the 10 conciliar
commissions, a total of 240members.
This is a lot of prep work.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah Well.
So now looking back at thenotes too, so when Pope John
XXIII, when all the people wereinvited and there's 987 bishops
and all that, that's not evenVatican II.
Yet it's the beginning.
Yeah, so it's like they'restill just getting started.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah, this is the very beginning.
We're all coming together.
They're trying to get thedrafts together.
What are we going to talk about?
Right?
And so the first order ofbusiness then on the first day
is to elect 16 bishops, right?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yeah no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
The commission on the apostolate of the laity.
This was very well thought out.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I mean this was encompassing right.
There were some of the bishopswho wanted those who served on
the Preparatory Commission to besimply re-elected, those that
had already been appointed byPope John XXIII.
Then the senior French cardinalAkhil Lainart addressed all of
(29:59):
the council and he said that thebishops could not intelligently
vote for strangers.
He asked that the vote bepostponed to allow all the
bishops a chance to draw uptheir own lists.
So German Cardinal JosephFrings seconded that proposal
and the vote for the electionwas postponed until they got all
(30:23):
these things worked out.
So the first meeting of thecouncil adjourned after only 15
minutes.
I can't vote for somebody Idon't know.
So the majority of the bishopsarranged for recess and met in
five different language groups,with each group proposing a
slate of their own candidates.
This resulted in a moreideological and geographic
(30:46):
representation of the church.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
That's the work of the Spirit, right there.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, you know.
What's so cool about all thisto me is like have you ever
tried to get a group of peopleto get anything accomplished?
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Oh yes, I've said on many committees yeah, it's
insane, it's a pain.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Yeah, it doesn't matter if they're a bunch of
kindergartners or a bunch of40-year-olds.
It's almost impossible to getanything done, and this shows
that our church is a worldwidechurch.
Yes, and so you've got thelanguage groups where it's like,
okay, what's the closestlanguage that I speak, the best
that I can go buddy up in.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
And it was amazing that again, immediately in the
first day, within the first fewminutes, like no, no, that's not
going to work, so let's do itthis way.
And obviously it was the HolySpirit inspiring these people
and moving these people so thatthere is a greater
representation of the church onthe commissions, right, yeah?
(31:41):
So then the first session ofthe Second Vatican Council
adjourned on December 8, 1962,and work began for the session
slated for 1963.
The preparations were haltedupon the death of Pope John
XXIII on June 3rd 1963, becausean ecumenical council is
(32:06):
dissolved automatically upon thedeath of the pope who convened
the council.
So the idea was okay, we'redone, the pope's dead.
So Cardinal Montini, theArchbishop of Milan, was elected
on June 21st 1963, and he tookthe name of Paul VI and
(32:26):
immediately announced thecontinuation of the council.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Yeah, can you imagine if everyone's like oh yeah,
womp womp, we tried.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Again.
So another beautiful thing,another work of the Holy Spirit.
Many of the bishops used thisas an opportunity for their own
ongoing formation and education.
They were able to attendevening lectures given by the
(33:02):
world's leading scholars.
They called them Peretti'stheological expert or advisor,
and there were several hundredPeretti at the council that were
teaching, catechizing,educating which is the latest
research?
Right, the latest research onall these different various
topics, because now they couldright Latest research on all
these different, various topics,because now they could right,
(33:26):
and according to languages,different languages.
So yeah, it was wonderful.
So they were going to be inRome for several months a year
from 1962 to 1965, for a totalof four sessions.
So another contributing factorto the council's success was
that the bishops were seated byseniority and therefore they
(33:47):
found themselves sitting withbishops from different countries
, which contributed to thebroadening of the horizons as
they began to see the differentcultural and language
differences and as they got toknow each other and explain to
each other the church thatthey're coming from and the
reality of the church that theywere coming from.
That really helped a lot intothe broadening of the
(34:10):
understanding of the church asuniversal right.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, yeah, because bishops in Africa deal with
completely different problemsthan bishops from California.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Correct, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, bishops from
California, Correct, yeah, yeah,yeah, there was a minority of
bishops, and they're everywhere.
You'll always find them in anygroup.
There was a minority of bishopswho were resistant to any type
of ecclesial reform.
Edward Skillebeck, in his bookthe Real Achievement of Vatican
(34:39):
II, states during the finalweeks of the third session, it
became doubtful even whether theunofficially planned
promulgation of fiveconstitutions and decrees would
take place at all.
Some of the commissions indeedhad to reckon with anything
between three and five,000 Modior amendments.
(35:05):
So when you present aconstitution, you present a
charter, you present there's adocument.
So then what happens is peoplewill send in amendment, like an
amendment to the document, tothe commission that's in charge
of it.
So what Skilabek is saying isthat some of these commissions
were receiving 3,000 to 5,000amendments.
(35:26):
Like that's impossible toprocess all that.
So they were being bogged downby all these.
You know, and who knows, itmight have been like well, you
need to put a comma here andthis should be a semicolon, and
you know all that stuff that canhappen when you're trying to to
publish a document that'swritten by a, a committee yeah,
yeah yes, don't want to do thatanymore but it's it's amazing
(35:53):
that it it worked.
Yes if anything, it just provesthat the holy spirit is very
present and alive in the churchof Christ, because this would be
impossible anywhere else or byany other body right?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah, and I've heard somebody say that the surest
proof of the church is for howlong it's been run by a bunch of
idiots who are trying to ruinit and it's still there.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
It's still there.
We've tried to kill it for2,000 years and we haven't been
able to do it.
Yeah, so, okay, lumen Gentium.
So Lumen Gentium was approvedand promulgated at the end of
the third session September,november of 1964, along with the
decree on ecumenism and thedecree on the Eastern churches.
(36:39):
So those were the threedocuments that were published
from the third session.
Now, why is it difficult tograsp the Council's teachings?
So there's three contributingfactors to this difficulty.
The first is that both Trentand Vatican I, the First Vatican
(37:06):
Council, were grounded in atheological scholasticism that
gave to each council a real, iflimited, conceptual unity.
They were all coming from thesame mentality.
By contrast, in the text of theSecond Vatican Council, we find
(37:29):
biblical references,alternating with historical
exposition, alternating withanalysis or analyses of
contemporary issues, citationsof previous councils Half of
them were from Trent and theFirst Vatican Council and
references to papal texts.
And half of the texts, half ofthe papal texts that were cited,
(37:51):
were texts of Pius XII, the onethat wrote Divino Flantis
Piditum.
Okay, so that's one of thereasons why it's difficult to
understand the Second VaticanCouncil and why it's so
different from the othercouncils.
Another difficulty is a lot ofcompromises were made to gain
(38:13):
more than two-thirds majority.
Now, this was something thatPaul VI pushed.
Paul VI pushed, he wanted agreater unity in the
publications, and so whathappens is usually in a
situation like this sometimessome things pass by simple
majority.
He wanted two-thirds majority,which means a lot more work had
(38:37):
to be done to please a lot morepeople, and so a lot of
compromises were made to be ableto get these things published,
the documents published.
And the third reason for thedifficulty in understanding the
Council's teaching is that andthis is what I said at the
beginning each document shouldbe read in the context of the
totality of the documents.
(39:00):
So if you really want tounderstand Lumen Gentium, you
have to go back and you read DeVerbum and Sacrosanctum
Concilium to be able tounderstand Lumen Gentium, to be
able to go forward and readGaudium et Spes, and so yeah,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Can I pick your brain a little bit, mm-hmm.
So what do you like?
I can imagine somebody sittinghere listening to this, maybe
especially if they'renon-Catholic and say something,
or and focus on the way that youchose to phrase it, that there
(39:41):
had to be compromises, mm-hmm,that there had to be compromises
and they had to get a majorityvote where you could argue with
Protestantism or non-CatholicChristian denominations within
that one denomination.
In theory, right, everything'sin theory.
You're not compromising becauseeveryone's on the same page,
(40:04):
right?
So why do you think, before Ieven ask, I can, even I can see
now pope francis is taking avery kind of similar approach,
like the openness and thelistening and the relationship
(40:24):
to the world, not just kind ofclosed in and like who are we to
us?
Speaker 1 (40:28):
but who are?
Speaker 2 (40:29):
we to the world.
So I can see all of that stuffstarting to develop over time
and I can see it influencing him.
So why is this significant?
Why is it important that thechurch, the bishops and
everybody compromised on some ofthese topics?
Or that like is it a bad thing?
No, two-thirds.
(40:49):
So if somebody, if something,only passed with 66%, is that a
bad thing?
No, that a third of the churchdidn't agree with it.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
No, no, I think it's part of and it's part of the
work of the Spirit too, likeokay, and it's part of the work
of the spirit too, like okay.
So as part of the whole idea of, I have to understand that this
is the work of the spirit andthe work of the spirit is
something beyond mycomprehension.
I have to be docile to thatright.
And so the compromise, I think,is not a bad thing.
I think the fact that you gettwo-thirds majority is
(41:17):
miraculous in itself.
But because what were thecompromises is miraculous in
itself.
But because what were thecompromises?
It's a matter of a lot of.
It had to do with expression,how it's written, how it's
expressed.
What is, is it a negativeexpression?
Is it a positive expression?
(41:39):
How is it being communicated?
For example, in Trent, whichwas a reform council as well, in
Trent, the first thing thechurch does is it defines itself
as a hierarchy.
It defines the hierarchy of thechurch.
That's the first thing it does,and it had to because it was
responding to the questioning ofthe hierarchy by the
(42:02):
Reformation or the ProtestantRevolution.
But that's not the point here,right?
And so now it's not a matter ofexpressing ourselves as
hierarchy, it's expressingourselves as the people of God,
which is a different.
It's the same truth, but it isa different way of manifesting
that truth.
Instead of pushing oremphasizing the hierarchy,
(42:28):
you're emphasizing the commoncall that we all have and share
through the gift of baptism,that we're all made a people of
God because of the revelation ofGod's Word to us.
So the compromise is not somuch compromises of value.
I think a lot of the compromiseshad to do with what we would
say today as a narrative.
What is the narrative?
(42:48):
How is it being presented?
Right?
So again, we still have them.
In the church today, we havepeople you know, the crotchety,
old, bitter person or bishop orcardinal or whatever who
absolutely refuses, you know, totake into consideration the
(43:08):
work of the Spirit and justrefuses to budge because they're
incapable of change orincapable of allowing the church
to move forward.
Not that they're all wrong Imean a lot of it has to do with
(43:33):
the lack of understanding oreducation or catechesis, or even
fear and insecurity.
Right, and so it's not thatthey're evil, it's just like
they're stuck in a place thatthey're really the idea of a
church that is dynamic andmoving and growing and still
essentially the same church thatChrist founded, and that's
where you have the difficulty Alot of people.
We've always done it this way.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Yeah, and that's the argument, that's always the
argument.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
We've always done it this way.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Yeah, well, and what's kind of funny to that
argument is regarding arguingwe've always done it this way
too.
We've always argued about itRight, and you've even expressed
certain things, and now it'sescaping me off the top of my
head, but I remember you talkingonce you're like yeah, I don't
like that this is expressed thisway, whatever in the world it
(44:24):
was, and so some of thecompromises I'm sure are like
that, like should we use thelanguage economy of salvation
Right, or should we usesomething?
Speaker 1 (44:33):
else.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Right, you know like what's more descriptive Right,
because you can say it like youwere saying, in the affirmative
Right or in the negative.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
But you Like you were saying in the affirmative or in
the negative, but you're stillcommunicating the same thing.
Yeah, for example, in theconsecration.
So we've done away with cup, wehad cup and we've gone back to
chalice.
Why?
There's no real good reasonother than that it's—the Latin
(45:01):
says chalice, and so we want to,and so we want to Latinize our
English, which is not a realreason for it.
But anyway, okay.
And then the Semitism to shedthis blood.
We had before for all, which isthe meaning of it.
But we went back to theSemitism which is for many, okay
.
So now you have to explain topeople well, for many is a
(45:22):
Semitism which is for many, okay.
So now you have to explain topeople well, for many is a
Semitism, that actually meansfor all.
So I go like okay, so whydidn't we just keep for all,
instead of now making it, yeah,it doesn't make sense?
Like, okay, this is what I haveto do and I do it and I don't
agree with it.
But okay, this is the choicethat they've made and the same
(45:43):
thing.
Like that.
I mean, it's a different way.
Again, the compromises at timesare not so much a compromise of
some theological essentialvalue as much as it is.
What is the narrative.
How is it being presented?
Speaker 2 (45:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Let me ask you this before wekeep going Is this a good place
to to maybe stop this episode?
Is there something else youwant to kind?
Speaker 1 (46:08):
of.
I think, yeah, we couldprobably stop here and then go
on, because the next thing wouldbe just really going over the
outline of the dogmaticconstitution, the different
chapters, and then start goinginto that.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Yeah man, I love this stuff, me too.
To that yeah man, I love thisstuff, me too.
And I've missed you.
Don't ever leave again or takeme with you, that'd be there you
go, there you go I can be your,uh, my chauffeur.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, well cool.
I'm super looking forward tothe rest of these because we've
(46:40):
you know, I would say weprobably have two days, two more
episodes worth.
Like, I love this stuff.
So thank you for this, thankyou for coming back, thank you
Everyone who joined us today.
Thank you for listening.
It really does mean a lot to usto know that somebody somewhere
out there is listening.
(47:01):
We appreciate it, so pleaseshare us with others.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Please share.
How many countries did you saywe were?
I heard you the other day.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Oh yes, 47.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
47 countries 47.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
And I would say, especially on that note, with
sharing, pray for everyone,because some of these countries
are places where I don't thinkChristians are very safe.
Right, correct so yeah, it'spretty cool, the internet.
Yeah, all right, father, I'llsee you next time.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Good night, god bless All right.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
God bless, bye, bye.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.