Traversing Continents and Cultures: A Dialogue on Resilience, Societal Challenges and Mental Health | Ft. Anne Sureshkumar Ep. 038 - My Thick Accent

Episode Transcript
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Gurasis (00:00):
Hi, this is Gurasis Singh and you're listening to My
Thick Accent podcast.
In a world where socioeconomicdisparities and gender biases

(00:22):
persist, I love talking toindividuals who serve as a
beacon of hope, tirelesslyworking to dismantle barriers
and empower marginalizedcommunities, and my guest today
is one such person.
She's a registered socialworker with a background in
public health and counseling.
Her areas of expertise includeanti-racism work, mental health,

(00:42):
domestic violence,intersectionality and identity
development.
She has presented at variousconferences and workshops, both
nationally and internationally,on topics such as cross-cultural
counseling, social norms,reconstruction and mental health
for racialized clients.
Recognized for her outstandingcontributions, she has been

(01:03):
nominated for the prestigious ElBota Inspirational Awards for
the, validating her dedicationand impact.
With an unwavering belief inthe transformative power of
education, she continues toeducate emerging therapists and
develop course material onmental health.
Join us as we uncover herjourney, her unwavering
dedication to creating positivechange and the valuable insight

(01:25):
she brings to the realm ofmental health and culturally
inclusive practices.
Please welcome Anne SureshKumar.

Anne (01:35):
Hi Gurasis, Thank you for having me and thank you for the
beautiful introduction.
It's a pleasure to be with youtoday.

Gurasis (01:42):
Of course, pleasure is all mine.
Very happy to have you on thepodcast, Anne, very excited for
this conversation.
So my first question to you iswhich I asked some of my guests
that what is that one habit youhave adopted that has changed
your life?

Anne (01:55):
Thank you for that question.
It's very thought-provoking.
Well, for me I would sayGurasis is over time.
I think what I've adopted, andI continue to try to practice
and be better at, is settingboundaries and when I say
boundaries it could be emotionaland physical boundaries with
myself, with people, places, andI think it's really served me

(02:18):
and it's only getting betterwith time.

Gurasis (02:21):
No, definitely very interesting.
That's something which we allshould learn to create that
boundaries, because sometimesthat's not instilled in us
growing up in a South Asianhousehold.
But I think I have built that alittle bit over time.
I think I'm still getting onthe track to build more and more
, but definitely I think we allcan learn from that.
Okay, so, Anne, you have livedacross continents.

(02:45):
You told me you're just fromIndia, but after my research I
got to know you also lived inZambia and Nigeria.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour formative years and the
experience of living in thesecountries, and tell us all about
that.

Anne (03:01):
Absolutely, Gurasis.
I was actually born in Zambiabecause my parents were used to
work there.
So back in the day I want tosay maybe early 70s or late 60s,
I don't exactly know but my dadleft India to work abroad as a
teacher.
So he was a high school teacher, so he just went to Ethiopia

(03:22):
and then, when he was in Zambia,he came back to India and did
the normal thing that we do.
He came and married my mom andtook her back and then they had
my brother and they had me.
So that's why I was born inZambia and then, when I was
around five years old, we movedto Nigeria and I was there till
I was 10.
I must say my life in bothZambia and Nigeria was really

(03:46):
positive.
So when I say positive, I don'tthink we really felt out of
place the culture, the people wejust felt right.
I don't remember growing upfeeling I'm brown or I'm
different or any of that, right.
So as a child I think I havereally positive memories and I
did come from a very positivehousehold as well.

(04:08):
So life was overall verypositive and beautiful.
However, when I was 10, my dadpassed and that's when we had to
go to India, and my momactually comes from a town
called Kudukote, but at thattime she chose to live in
Chennai, and that's how Chennaibecame our home.
Because for the purpose ofeducation, because back in the

(04:31):
day we didn't have Englishmedium schools in the towns so
she chose to stay in Chennai andcontinue to educate my brother
and myself.
And, yeah, so that's how it wasTill I came to Canada 10 years
ago.

Gurasis (04:48):
So okay, so tell me that that just living across you
know geographies kind ofimpacted your initial days a
little bit in any way.

Anne (05:00):
Yeah, I think Kuras is because, for example, when, as I
told you, until I was 10, I wasin Zambia, nigeria, and we did
visit India for vacation, buteverything that I knew about
India was based on what my dadtold me and me and my dad had a
beautiful relationship.
So India was this land that Istill feel like I had this
romantic relationship with,because you would tell me all

(05:22):
these stories about India andall these things.
So then I think all that got methinking very early on in life
about people, culture, why we dowhat we do.
I think, as, even as a child, Iwas always curious to noticing
the differences and questioningwhy.
So I think, yeah, all thoseexperiences got me thinking very

(05:42):
early on in life.

Gurasis (05:45):
Give us like an example of something, the first thing
that came to your mind.
Maybe as a tiny child or ateenager, you were like why this
?
If you remember anything, I?

Anne (05:55):
do.
Actually, I remember coming toIndia, as I said, I was around
10, maybe 11ish, 12ish and Iremember like so, as I said, I
came from a beautiful householdand a lot of respect to my
parents, a lot.
And it was very interesting tome to notice that when we
started our lives in Chennai, mymom being a young widow she was

(06:16):
only around 35 at that time shewas kind of secluded from
certain things, like if therewas something, especially, my
mom was not invited.
That, like, really got methinking and I think it kind of
fueled this little bit of angerin me as a child and I think I
started questioning those thingsvery early on and I guess that

(06:37):
explains my career path.
But yeah, I always started asmuch as I loved our culture and
everything.
I am a great fan of my cultureand the way we live our lives
but at the same time, right,nothing is perfect and I think I
started questioning thesethings very early on.

Gurasis (06:54):
Okay, and is there any a certain tradition or a culture
from from India, or justsomething that you picked from
Zambia or Nigeria that you stilluse in your life here in Canada
?

Anne (07:09):
That's a good question.
Yeah, I think.
My life in Zambia, Nigeria andIndia.
I think it's that sense ofcollectiveness.
Right, Because as human beingswe were not wired we are not
wired to live in isolation.
Right.
Yet being core dependent iswrong, but we need to recognize
that we are interdependent.
We all need each other at somany different levels.

(07:32):
Yeah, Right, I think when werecognize that it brings this
whole sense of awareness andhumbleness, and then that in
itself will inspire and help youwork on the different levels of
relationships in your life too,so that you have like a
holistic life with positivemental.

Gurasis (07:48):
Yeah, so I really believe in the collectiveness of
human beings and it's veryinteresting you talked about
interdependency, because I thinkall my life it was about coming
to Canada and in the initialyears, like I have to be
independent, I have to beindependent.
But that's what I understoodeventually that basically what's

(08:09):
necessary to survive and growand to be successful is to be
interdependent.
That really helped me and Ithink I'm continuing to learn
that thing and trying toimplement that in my life.

Anne (08:22):
Exactly, yeah, being interdependent, right, that's
the most healthiest thing, and Ithink it's about that balance.
As you said, right Gracessometimes.
I think right, an ideal culturewould be a culture that we can
make between the collective andthe individual and create a new
one where there is independence,we do respect the individual,
but there's also a balance inthe fact that an individual

(08:43):
cannot live in isolation.

Gurasis (08:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think we, as immigrantswho have come from that culture
and living in this new culture,we are the ones who are going to
create something in the middlethat's going to benefit the
future generations.
Yeah, absolutely.
And tell me, is this somethingthat people don't know about
Chennai, that you would like toshare, or even something about

(09:07):
Zambia or Nigeria that somethingdon't know about?

Anne (09:11):
Okay, going back to Zambia and Nigeria, I want to say,
like when I came to Canada,something that I noticed that
really broke my heart is, likethese stereotypes about the way
we talk about Africa, first ofall Africa.
They refer to Africa like acountry without right, like the
stereotype that Africa is onebig country.
No, there's so much diversityand so many countries within the

(09:32):
African continent and they havetheir own unique cultures and
all those things.
And when I noticed people, theAfrican people that I saw here,
I noticed that, as I said, I'malways noticing human behavior
and trying to understand.
I felt that most of the Africanpeople here have a little bit

(09:54):
of their walls up and that wasvery different from what I
experienced growing up, becausethey're very welcoming, very
loving, and then, if you thinkabout it, it's because they've
been hurt and gone through somuch because of racism and
oppression.
And then I started leaning inand reaching out to them and
today I have so many friends ofAfrican descent.

(10:17):
It's the environment that welive here.
So I would say, in terms ofpeople from the African
continent, they're very lovingand welcoming.
They have so much to live Interms of our Indian culture.
Chennai, I want to say Chennaiis a beautiful city.
It has one of the mostbeautiful beaches.

(10:38):
Yes, we do have a conservativeculture.
It's getting better.
Yeah, and people in Chennaialso are very kind and loving.
Yeah, and I'm proud to say thatI'm from Chennai.
Like it's a city I do love andI think I always will.

Gurasis (10:55):
Absolutely, it's beautiful.
I do know a few people fromChennai, and obviously I.
The funny thing is I never metthem in India because I got the
opportunity to visit South ofIndia.
I literally met them in Canadaand they are amazing.
They're, like you know, my oneof few.
Of my closest friends, I wouldsay, are from the south and

(11:16):
obviously I think listeners whomight be non-indians or even
somebody from North India mightnot be aware that the language
majorly, majorly spoken inChennai is Tamil, right, exactly
.

Anne (11:27):
Yeah, yeah, and I say I'm a Tamil speaker.

Gurasis (11:36):
So tell us about your career choice, a little bit
about your education that youdid in.
India.

Anne (11:42):
Yeah, sure, so.
So you know, the honest groupclasses is Growing up like after
we came to India, like my momdid our best for us, right, but
you did different reasons.
I don't think now, when I lookat the current generation, I
don't know when it was agenerational thing, there wasn't

(12:02):
much focus on.
Rather, I want to say supporton what I should be doing, right
.
So I, and when I look back, Ithink it was God's plan that the
way things have rolled out so.
So basically what I'm trying tosay great.
Well, my highest mark was ineconomics.
I was like, okay, I'll do BAeconomics, that I always wanted
to do BA English literature andbecome a journalist.

(12:24):
But at that time there's not somuch encouragement Because it
was like that's not, it's gonnabe a hard career for a girl.
But then I did my BA economicsand I did not like it at all.
It's like I don't know why I'mdoing this and then, but I
Somehow powered through it andthen in my final year I realized
that there was this degreecalled masters in social work

(12:46):
and I got some.
This is, I was very innocentand I but that time says, oh,
this is about helping people, sookay.
And then I enrolled myself inthat and I did my MSW and that
that was the two best years ofmy life in terms of Education.
I did it at Stella MarisCollege, university of Madras.
They really take the juice outof you, but it was such an

(13:09):
empowering experience.
And Then after that, as you know, traditionally by the time I
was in my early 20s, there wasthis pressure.
Now, when I look back, I don'teven know why I fed into it, but
that time I was this Beautifuldaughter wanting to do the best
for my mom and never wanting tobe like a burden on her, so I

(13:29):
agreed to get married.
And then I did get married veryearly on in life and then I had
my son and after that and I wasa pretty much a housewife.
But I realized that I Mean, Ilove being a housewife and
taking care of in-laws and myson and all those things, but it
was still something that was Ineed to do something and at that
time I was not really permittedto work.

(13:51):
So then I was like but at leastyou know, I want to keep
learning.
So then I went on to do my Mfill and guidance in counseling
and it was again a hugechallenge because not much
support From family, but Ipowered through that.
It was at that time.
It was not because I wanted tobecome so-and-so or we take up a

(14:12):
career.
The career doors really closed.
It was more like I enjoyed theprocess of learning and I want
to keep learning.
So I finished that and Iimmediately again enrolled into
my PhD and that I chose to do itin woman studies and I was
really enjoying it as my son wasgrowing up, like it was, we
were learning together.
It was a piece go learnkindergarten and that kind of

(14:36):
thing.
And then it was time to havethe second baby as per family's
request.
I think you understand rightthe cultural aspect.
Yeah, of course then I waspregnant with my daughter and at
that time it just became a bittoo hard see, without family
support towards your education,having to take care of two kids,

(14:56):
and then there's no motivationas to why I'm studying so much.
Then I looked at my daughterwhen she was born and I thought,
well as again, as someone withthis mental health background, I
knew that, right, a child needsyour attention and me not
having support and strugglingwould not be helpful.
So I just came up.

(15:17):
I finished 80% of my researchat that time, but I chose to
give it up and just focus onboth my kids and, honestly,
classes.
I do not regret that I don'thave my PhD, but I call my
daughter my PhD, so I did mylife.
Yeah, so that was how thingsrent in terms of education you

(15:38):
know any, you.

Gurasis (15:39):
You touched upon some various points and there were
two cultural Noms which I thinkI would like to talk about and
highlight, because things arechanging and I Want somebody who
is listening to it should notbuy into those which are not
relevant in today's generation,which might be valid maybe 10
years ago or 20 years ago.
The first thing you said isdefinitely, you know, you were

(16:01):
not permitted to work Initially.
Right, that was the first thingyou said.
And the second thing wasobviously, as put, the
Requirement from the family.
You wanted to have the firstchild and the second child, but
I wanted to also.
Yes, it was.
You said there's the bestseasons of your life and you
enjoyed and you had a great timein there and that was part of
her journey and you are what youare because of that experience

(16:22):
you have had.
Definitely, but tell me, ifsomebody who is listening and
why should they, especiallywomen, for example?
They are not, you know, whyshould they not buy into these
societal norms?
Tell us about that.

Anne (16:37):
Why shouldn't they?
Okay, absolutely so, likethat's a really deep question.
So if we look at India, I wouldeven say, with my own
experience, like every time I goback to, in the last 10 years,
these been massive change, asyou said, in terms of women's
empowerment, for men's education, all these things right, yeah.
But why shouldn't you buy intoit?

(16:58):
Because we lived and wecontinue to live in a
patriarchal society, right.
So society has been set upRight to benefit the man.
And don't get me wrong, I stillsee that even here in the
western world, in South, I'msorry, north America, right.
So I think all the differencesare patriarchy has been

(17:21):
dismantled a little bit more inthe western world, whereas other
collective societies we cancontinue to dismantle it, right.
And then I exactly, my story isnot a one-size-fits-all.
My story does not represent allIndian women.
I want to make that right evenif I look at my life, the
difference between my but likemy maternal home and my marital

(17:46):
home is a huge difference.
It's a different because it'sreligion.
It's different because I comefrom.
I was born into a family whereI'm a third generation learner,
right, so my grandparents, mygrandfather, was a judge and
they were all these doctors andlawyers.
So the family background isdifferent.
But whereas I was married into afamily which was business

(18:06):
oriented, where education wasn'tkey, there was more patriarchy,
there was this belief thatstrong men don't allow women to
work.
Right, and now, even withinthat family, things have changed
with the generation of my son.
Right, all they're all thesegirls, my, the nieces and the
family who are now engineers andwho work, and and also Today's

(18:27):
day and time, if you want tohave a family, it just makes
sense that two people work,unless you're a million.
Yeah, a lot of these thingshave changed, right.
And Again, going back to yourquestion, why should women not
buy into it?
Because at the end of the day,man or woman, we're all human
and I think we all have ourpurpose in this life and I think

(18:47):
no one should let anything getin the way of your purpose in
life.
If you have a calling, ifthere's something that's always
pushing you to do something,listen to it.
I'm not saying, be a rebel, berebellious and cut ties with
your family Not in that way butalways pay attention to what is
your inner self telling you.
And I think I said earlier andI did not have much support or

(19:10):
anything, but there's somethingthat has always kept leading me
and I've always followed that.
I've never left, allowed Allthese things that were pulling
me down to take a full controlof my life.

Gurasis (19:23):
Hmm, yeah, no, but I think at the same time I just
want to mention that if that issomething that works for an
individual, please feel free todo that.
You don't, like you said, youdon't have to rebel all the time
.
Or it really opposed thecertain Decisions that are being
made for you sometimes and theymight be good for you, you
never know we just have likekind of gauge whether is it

(19:45):
something that's comingnaturally to you, is that
something you really want to do,or is it something which is
like an external force which isasking you to do?
That's how I see it, absolutely.

Anne (19:55):
Absolutely, and you know, the universe will put all these
people in your life who will bethose, or sources of
encouragement when you feel like, okay, this is okay, I'm just
gonna be this.
But then there'll be thesepeople who remind you, like, do
you remember when you're in,like for me, it's my best friend
.
She has always been thereencouraging me and saying you

(20:17):
know you actually have morepotential, you know you can
really do this.

Gurasis (20:25):
So let's just pivot towards your journey to Canada.
Tell me how did you decide tocome to Canada and how was the
process for you like?

Anne (20:33):
Again, coming to Canada was not my choice.
It was the choice of mychildren's father.
He chose, I think he made thedecision 2009, 2010, that he
wants to come to Canada and Ijust followed through With that
without again, ignorance isbliss I have.

(20:54):
All that I thought was like Iwas told it'll be a better
future for the kids.
Obviously, as a very dedicatedmother, I thought, okay, it, it
would be.
And all that.
Sometimes, after coming hereand here, facing hardships, I
thought I used to ask myself,what were you thinking?
But anyways, all that I thoughtat that point is like I had
traveled to Europe with my dadand after marriage, as well as a

(21:17):
tourist right, and and that wasEurope.
That was Like this beautiful,you know, like location, people
are amazing, it'll be nice andthat's all I thought about.
But, long story short, it tookus three years to emigrate to
Canada.
I was the main A pick pointthrough the skilled worker

(21:37):
program, I, and then finally, wegot here in 2013, september,
and yeah, it was a big shock forme.
I think I'm a very resilientperson and I'm pretty good at
adapting to change, but whatreally was very hard is I was
not told in immigration that allyour experience and all your

(22:00):
education will be consideredpretty much null and that you
would have to start from scratch.
I wish they had told us thatand being more direct.
So I came and the first year,first month, I started applying
for all these counseling jobs.
So I had started working.
So things for me back homechanged after a point because my

(22:20):
family wanted to immigrate here.
Then I was asked for work and Ihad started working.
So I had and I had built somepretty good experience in India
before I got here, but I thoughtI'd qualify as a counselor here
and that did not happen.
So after a month, again a fewpeople that we got to know that
just entered the workforce.
So then my first job was at A&Wand I do not regret that

(22:46):
Grasses, because it was a veryhumbling experience and it gave
me an exposure to the life offoreign temporary workers a lot
of people from the Philippinesand their lives and all those
things.
Anyways, then from there, Iworked two or three months and I
became a companion at asenior's home, and again that

(23:08):
job again.
If they paid me what I get paidas a counselor, I would do that
job because I received so muchlove.
All the seniors would just lookforward to me every day, and it
was so emotionally fulfilling.
And it was very sad, though, tosee most of the seniors' lives
where their families very rarelyvisit them they're not like

(23:29):
even a weekly visit.
So it felt very fulfilling forme to be there for them and
support them, and the love wasjust like.
I'm not gonna explain.
But then, from there again, Ikept applying for jobs.
By that time I had lowered thebar very low for me.
I was just applying for aclerical job, but I didn't even
get that, and then people saidyou need some kind of Canadian

(23:51):
education.
So then I went into doing theDiplomaf, Human Services, and
again I didn't have to do that,because most of my lecturers
were like why are you doing thiswhen you have a master's?
But that's where I learned theprocess to get fully registered,
because I came here with noconnections, no guidance,
nothing, right.
So some very kind professors.

(24:12):
I learned the process and thenI got provisionally registered
with the Alberta College ofSocial Workers and, thank God
too, both my masters were orsorry said that it's good enough
as one MSW here, but I stillhad to write the licensing exam
and get the 1,200 hours ofclinical practice, which I did.

(24:35):
Yeah, so four years, so by 2017, is when I got a break.
Till then, I was doingdifferent jobs, but slowly.
I entered the field of mentalhealth, but I was still very
much under-employed, but Iworked at different shelters, I
worked in addiction, worked insolely mental health
organizations, and 2017 is whenI joined an organization to be a

(24:57):
counselor.
Yeah, and then yeah, so it'sbeen a hard journey, but
initially I was a bit a bitranced up at that.
In last, Again, I went back tothinking why is this happening?
What can we do differently?
How can I help other people notface these kinds of problems?
What are the gaps here?
So yeah, that's been thejourney so far.

Gurasis (25:20):
Yeah, ania, we will talk definitely more about your
work experience here and how youjoined the further workforce.
Finally, you got into yourindustry.
But I want to circle back onthe point where you landed for
the first time in 2013.
Tell us about your first day.
What were your initialimpressions or what were your
initial emotions?

Anne (25:39):
Oh okay.
So the first day was prettygood, actually, because we had,
from the airport, we came tothis house that we were renting
and they happened to beTamilians as well, the owners.
So the lady of the house shehad made an Indian lunch for us.
So we came to the house that wehad rented where there was

(25:59):
lunch for us, right, homemadeIndian foods.
That was really good.
And then there was this Arya,there was this other family who
was a friend of a friend, whohelped us actually get this
house.
So those people, like I callthem Anna, anu as an elder,
brother and sister-in-law, sothey were just like even hearing
Tamil.
And then that day they took usto.

(26:19):
They took me and the kids tothe Indian store and the grocery
store and get all theessentials, and she had pillows
and blankets for us and theywere a huge support and I'm
always so grateful to themthroughout.
I would say that, even thatwhole one year of transitioning,
and that's so important forevery family, because you, all

(26:41):
of a sudden, you're excited andyou're finally here, but then
there's also this vacuum and theshock and fear and isolation.
All these things also do kickin right, and we didn't have any
other family here, or no one.
So we were blessed to havethese two families help us and
guide us.

Gurasis (27:00):
Yeah, I think it's always, I think wonderful to
have some sort of similaritywhen you come to a new country
and getting and I think food issomething which definitely is a
great factor when you have yourfood here.
I think that serves the purpose.
It's like that, tell me.
But you did talk about it tookyou like five years to finally

(27:22):
get a job.
Sometime in 2017, you got yourfirst job, but before that, you
worked at A&W when you appliedeverywhere, and I think we
should also highlight the factthat, if you were discussing
earlier in our earlierconversation that, when you
mentioned that immigration doestell you that Canada needs
social workers, but it takes youlonger than expected when you
come to Canada.

(27:43):
So, but there must be momentsanywhere you must have felt
frustrated, just like many of us, including myself, or there'd
be situations like you said youfelt isolated and you felt like
do I really belong here?
How did you cope up with thosesort of feelings?
What did you do with that?

Anne (28:03):
Yeah, I think what I did was, as I said, my best friend,
she also a little bit of work.
My best friend, we did our MSWtogether.
Today she's the vice presidentof Fidelity Bangalore branch.
Very smart woman, so yeah, soshe has always.
So I, though she was an Indian,she's always been different
countries, different cities,kind of a friendship.

(28:25):
I always had her, not that Iwas talking to her every day,
but when I felt really stressed.
I think that's something we allneed to do, irrespective of the
situation at least one supportperson who you know you can just
call and just let it out, cry,be vulnerable, and then that
person just packs you up andthey like go, and then you know
you feel better.
So I definitely did that.

(28:46):
Apart from that, I neverstopped being curious because I
think and I got my motivationfrom being a mother right,
because my children did have acertain lifestyle in India, not
that we were extremely wealthyor anything, but I would say I
wanna say maybe middle up, amiddle class.
So for me it was like I want mychildren to have a good life

(29:06):
and they must be a way throughthis.
So what I did is I challengedmyself.
I said, okay, candice, I don'thave Canadian work experience,
so I'm gonna get as muchexperience as I can.
There were times when I wasdoing three jobs, all in the
field of mental health,different areas, right.
So I worked very hard and I wasalways curious.

(29:26):
I was always humble, gurasas,like when I say humble, I was
always like what are the thingsthat I don't know, that I need
to know?
How can I make myself better tofit into the system?
What do I need to learn better?
Right, yes, mental health, yes,but mental health is different
in India.
It's different here, as in theframe of reference, the
perspective, how the systemworks.

(29:47):
So I just worked very hard.
I think I worked too hard and Iyeah, yeah and yes, but it was
okay.
It was okay.
So, and then going back to yourquestion, what did I do?
I always had the support of myfriend.
I was open and honest with mychildren about this path and

(30:07):
journey.
I never one thing that I neverdid and I will never do in my
life, gurasas, is project myfrustration on anyone else.
I will be vulnerable and shareit with people.
The times where I've cried infront of my kids and be like I
don't know how we're gonna makeit here.
I don't know what I'm doingright.
I've been vulnerable with them,but I've never come and yelled

(30:28):
at them for something that I'mstruggling with.
So that in itself has reallyled to even more strengthening
my relationship with my children, and I think you lead by
example right.
So I've showed my children thatyou can be strong, you can work
hard, but you can also bevulnerable and you can cry, and
that's okay.

(30:48):
That's human life.

Gurasis (30:50):
Yeah, that's a beautiful Lani.
I think they're lucky to have amother like you, then, because
I think again, I think it goesback to our parents, because
they are the product of theirown time and they were asked not
to show their vulnerabilitiesbecause their parents never
showed them that sort of I meanto the point where saying to our

(31:12):
child that I love you right,it's not something that commonly
said by our parents to us.
So that's amazing that you aredoing that with your children,
and I'm sure that it's gonnainstill such emotions in him for
which he or she or yourchildren won't be hesitant to
express them.

(31:32):
They will be open to expressthose emotions, to the
relationships they will build inthe coming years of their life,
right.

Anne (31:39):
That's my hope as well right, yeah, absolutely.

Gurasis (31:43):
And you talked about you work too hard.
Well, the hard work hasdefinitely paid off doing this
incredible work, and definitelyI think it has paid off for sure
.
Another thing we werediscussing that like one thing
which kept me sane throughout myfive years was understanding
that why people do what they do.

(32:04):
And when you said the samething you know in our earlier
conversation and it connectedwith me that, oh my God, yes,
exactly how I perceive someone'sbehavior for my own sanity,
because you don't know what theperson's internal conversation
is happening and they might putit out there to somebody else.
You definitely, I'm sure, talkto a lot of people, a lot of

(32:27):
conversations you have withpeople, and they open up to you.
Tell us that.
What can I want you to justemphasize on this and teach us,
or tell us my listeners and giveme an example, if you have that
, how can we learn from thisthat there's a reason why people
do what they do?

Anne (32:45):
Absolutely.
That's a really insightfulquestion.
So why do people do what theydo?
I would link it back toemotional intelligence.
So a person with IQ is veryimportant, for sure, but then
what we need and I think it's soimportant in today's day and
time emotional intelligence andvery simple words.
It's self-awareness of yourselfand how your body and like, how

(33:09):
your mind and what is yourframe of reference.
Why do you think what you think?
Why do you make the conclusionsyou make?
Whatever that looks like andwhat is that of the other person
.
So if I'm going to look at you,Gurasis, even in our
interaction here, and I'mconsistently judging you based
on my frame of reference, I'mnot really going to build a

(33:31):
relationship with you.
That's positive.

Gurasis (33:34):
Yeah.

Anne (33:34):
Right.
So I think that's reallyimportant for our own survival.
It's not about sometimes peoplethink it's about being nice, or
it's about being healthy, andespecially in a country like
India where there's so muchdiversity like you're Desi, I'm
Desi, you're Indian, I'm Indian,but we have so many differences
.
Right, absolutely, yeah.

(33:56):
So for us to have healthypersonal, family working
relationships, I think it's veryimportant to sit back Again.
Your question reminds me of so.
In counseling, I love to workwith immigrant families and the
different generations within afamily.
So, even within a family, theparents immigrated here as
adults, the kids grew up here.

(34:18):
Now, even between that family,now, there's not only
generational differences butthere's also this cultural kind
of a difference, right?
So helping the childrenunderstand the frame of
reference of the parents and theparents understand the frame of
reference of the children andhelp them have healthy
expectations healthy andreasonable expectations of each

(34:38):
other will lead to meaningfulrelationships.
It's really sad when you seethat not happening and then
parents feeling disappointed intheir children, children feeling
disappointed in their parentsand, you know, really leading to
unhealthy relationships andoften break up of the family
system.
Yeah, so I would say that's whyit's really important.
Whoever you are, whatever you doalways remember remembering

(35:01):
right.
This is what I think, based onwho I am, my own lived
experience, my culture, mygender, all these things, and
for the other person it could besomething entirely different.
And there's no right or wrong.
There's no one good way ofliving a life.
There could be 10 million goodways of living a good life, as
far as we're not on the other.

Gurasis (35:21):
Yeah, and I think it happens in terms of
understanding our parentsthinking as well, right, like,
for example, if they areimplying a certain habit or like
a certain tradition to us.
Again, we, as the youngergeneration, we will try to rebel
, like if I talk aboutpatriarchy, like you know, all
my life I was thought oh the men, don't cry, be a man, it's the

(35:44):
task of the week.
You know, all this wasinstilled in me growing up.
Do I really have to blame myparents for all my life?
No, I don't have to.
I can't do that.
Like I told before, they are theproduct of their own time and
they're doing it because theywere taught that and try to pass
on the same thing.
But I think when I startedlearning, living on my own, I
understood that, hey, being ableto show emotions is not that

(36:08):
you're weak, you're actuallystronger you, and it's OK to
feel emotions, whether it'shappy, sad, angry, creative,
whatever it is.
These are just emotions andthey are OK to express and feel.
In fact, they only better yourrelationships.
But, at the same time, if theyears where I have I have felt a
little, you know, lessvulnerable to show my emotions,

(36:30):
I can't blame my parents.
We have to move on to that.

Anne (36:34):
It builds empathy for each other.
Yes, exactly yeah.

Gurasis (36:40):
And and, and you know you also told me earlier that in
2017, when you got to a jobwith Calgary Counseling Center
and you were working as atherapist coach there and you
were working and researching onthe honor based projects which
is where you talked about thehonor based violence and and
sometimes you are studying thatpeople aren't aware of it or

(37:01):
even if they know something ishappening, they don't know where
to go.
So I would like you to pleaseeducate my listeners about what
is the honor based violence andwhat is the next steps of
something, of any of thesethings, is happening with them.

Anne (37:15):
Absolutely, and so on.
A base violence, in very simplewords, is where it's a
situation where the honor of afamily or the honor of a man is
is supposedly carried in thebody of a woman and the decision
she makes Right.
So in Canada we have immigrantsand refugees coming from all
over the world.

(37:35):
Now, many of those, thecultures that people are coming
from, still believe in thatRight now and when.
And then you let's say a familywhere the honor is very much
rigid in that way.
Now that family, let's say theycome here as mom and dad and
they have a little girl.

(37:55):
Ok, now that little girl goesup here.
Now that little girl, by timeshe's maybe 16, 17,.
She is right, she's very muchCanadian.
She might have her own familyvalues as well.
But, for example, something assimple as she may think that
dressing a certain ways OK toher, yeah, in her eyes it's
respectful, whereas in theparents eyes it could be

(38:17):
something like very disgraceful.
Right, it can be crossing, likeyou know, a huge boundary for
them and maybe she may startdating people like so many
different things.
Or she may think that it's inher life.
It can be OK to hang out withher friends, maybe even at nine
or 10 o'clock.
So all these things can causeconflict, and they do, and

(38:38):
unfortunately, that's why it'svery important to work with
immigrant families and theparents.
Parents then engage in waysthat they, in aggressive ways,
to control the child and it goessometimes to the to the extent
of forced marriage and all thesethings.
But we need to know that thesethings are not done in the open.
So, gurasas, you may be my bestfriend If I believe that again,

(39:00):
it goes back to this concept ofvirginity and relating it with
honor.
Like if I am so worried that Ido have a 19 year old daughter,
let's say I am so worried thatshe is going to lose her
virginity and I don't trust her,it may lead me to contact
someone back home and take herback home and get her married,
like if that's my frame ofreference, right?

(39:22):
So I'm not saying everyone isdoing this.
It's like domestic violence,right?
Everyone is not in domesticviolence, right, but it does
happen.
So I'm very mindful when I talkabout these things because then
again, mainstream people tendto think that, oh, all
immigrants, all refugees, allpeople from collective societies
.
So that's not the case.
No, not at all.
Right, but then some peopledefinitely do this.

(39:42):
Female gentle mutilation ishappening.
People who believe in that as aright of passage are doing it.
They are either doing it underthe table or they're taking back
girls back home and doing itwhen they think it should be
done.
Forced marriage is happening.
Yeah, all these differentthings are happening.
We did have a few on-killingsin Canada as well, but not of

(40:06):
recent, yeah.
So when these things happen sothat was my role during the two
years working with CalgaryPolice, working with children
services, working with theschool world, working with
different immigrant servingorganizations to create
awareness and say, hey, hello,this is happening.
I'm not here against anyculture or religion, but this is

(40:27):
mostly about our girls,children.
And it does happen to men andboys when they either when they
disagree for an arrangedmarriage, so then it becomes a
forced marriage.
That's the difference.
And marriage can start as anarranged marriage, but then when
there's a proposal, it can endup being a forced marriage.
Or when a boy or man isidentified with a different

(40:50):
sexual orientation other thanheterosexual, so then it occurs
then as well.
We have a lot of immigrant andrefugee men leaving some of
these countries because of thesexual orientation coming to
Canada as a safe place.
Yeah, so it's happening atdifferent levels.
But, however, the sad thingpart is I worked on this project

(41:13):
for two years and then we lostfunding.
We reached a stage where westarted creating awareness.
I had started to see clients,but then we lost funding Again.
It's not being prioritizedenough.
So, to answer your question,what resources do we have?
Actually, we do not have anyresources here in Calgary.
I think there's a little bitmore work being done in Ontario

(41:33):
because the immigrant diasporais more bigger there, right In
Calgary.
We still have a long way to goin Alberta.
So right now I would say ifsomething happens, so I do
whatever I can do, like wheneverpossible, I still go to Calgary
Police and give them athree-hour training when they
are willing to give me the timenot even three hours, they give

(41:55):
me 90 minutes.
So I talk about on-base violenceevery opportunity.
Though it's not my role, Istill try my best to create
awareness.
So I would say, if you're inthat kind of a situation where
you fear right, you're in asituation where your parents can
do something beyond your willor force you into a marriage,
call 911, talk to someone.

(42:16):
But I would say please explainto the service provider whether
it's a cop, whether it's ateacher, whether it's a social
worker, that these are certainthings you should not do.
Like, don't call me in front ofmy parents, because sometimes
mainstream folks, serviceproviders, they mean well but
they don't understand theseverity of the situation and
they can end up doing somethingthat's unhelpful.
Right, but I would say talk toa friend, talk to maybe another

(42:40):
parent who can support you ifyou're in such a situation.
These definitely ways that wecan find a way out of it,
because imagine a child who'sjust 14 or 16 getting married
against their will.
A child is not emotionally orphysically ready for a marriage.

Gurasis (42:58):
Yeah, yeah.

Anne (43:00):
So these things are happening, kuras, in my two
years, I realized that it'sreally hard-picking.
It's just again swept under therug and there's so much
violence around it.

Gurasis (43:13):
Well, it's terrible that it's happening, but I want
you to tell us that, if any ofour listeners I hope not- if any
of our listeners or any oftheir acquaintances is in a
similar situation.
What can they do to help theirfriend or themselves in that

(43:34):
particular situation?
When they come across suchsituations, what can they do
then, Without calling 911,without seeking that help?
Because even having thatcourage to pick up the phone,
and to pick up from the point ofthat happening and to the point
of picking up the phone if it'spoint A to B, that journey from

(43:55):
A to B is also difficult.
So what can one do to go to thepoint to B?
What can one do there?

Anne (44:01):
Here's the thing, kuras it can be very hard for a person
because this is their family.
It's not like someone externalis doing this to you.
This is your parents, who maybeyou're such a disgrace.
How can you do this?
So in those moments, I want theperson to remind themselves
that you are not the problem andit's unfortunate that your own

(44:24):
family and people you love aresaying this to you.
But, as you said, that it is alack of awareness.
It's a misplaced sense of honorwhich you are not responsible
for.
You are a human life.
You have a right to makinghealthy decisions and a healthy
life.
So, because many people getcaught in this and may even

(44:47):
agree to a forced marriage orthese kinds of things, or to be
shipped back home or whateverthe situation may be, so remind
yourself that you're not theproblem and that there is help
out there and life.
Yes, this is really hard in adark place to be in, but if you
can somehow get through this,there is help, right.

(45:08):
Yes, for example, in Alberta,we don't have a one place or one
organization, but then when youdo reach out in some way, they
will make connections, and Ithink I want to say around seven
or eight years back, there wasthis girl from a very
conservative family who wastaken on a flight for a forced

(45:31):
marriage and then it just tooksomeone from her community to
call 911, connected with animmigrant serving organization
and then people in her communityand they all got together,
collaborated and were able totake this young child off the
plane.
And today she's doing so well.
She's nearly finished heruniversity, she has her own

(45:52):
apartment and now she's buildingher relationships with her
family.
Because who are you?
Guras is without your family?
Right, but sometimes that samefamily may be making a wrong
decision on your behalf and youdon't have to go by it.

Gurasis (46:07):
Yeah, Well, I'm happy for that girl and I hope anybody
who might be I hope not onceagain, but if anybody is I
really wish you more power toyou guys and please, please,
reach out for help if possible.
Please reach out.
Another thing, you know we werediscussing earlier again, which

(46:30):
was about you know how therewas a story I was sharing that
there's a difference between thepeople who are being an
immigrant.
There's a difference betweenpeople you can see who are
genuinely curious about you, or,in my case, the colors of my
turban and the people who arecompletely pulling me down right
for just being in this newcountry.
And you said that it's calledthe weathering effect, right?

(46:53):
So tell me, tell me a littlebit more about that.
Tell us, our listeners, alittle bit about that.
And what can one do to not fallinto that bit?

Anne (47:01):
Yeah, so the weathering effect is when you consistently
experience racism right, andit's often more subtle, right,
it's this consistent feelingthat you're an outsider and that
you have to adjust yourself,your identity, your words and
actions to fit in.
So all these things do have aneffect on your mental health and

(47:24):
your physical health as well,right, over time.
Right, there was even researchwhich tells us that Canada
brings in immigrants andrefugees with better physical
and mental health than theaverage Canadian and after a
period of seven years, if yousee their physical mental health
, it's lower than the averageCanadian.
Right, but again, right, thisis so subtle, it's systemic,

(47:46):
there's so many things to it,right.
So, again, what can you do?
No-transcript, that's again, Ithink, a very good question.
I think the first thing is toacknowledge what you're going
through, because many people see, I'm in a field where I am
exposed to this and all that,right, like, for example, when I
talk to my friends who are inthe IT field, who are engineers,

(48:08):
doctors, it's not part of theirpractice, it's not part of
their professional world, butthey go through the stress
without even knowing thatthey're going through it, right,
so you're feeling all thesethings, but you can't put a
finger in it, you can't name it.
The first part would be, Ithink, to get become aware, read
more about it, be more aware.
Not, don't get me wrong.
Sometimes people think, oh,that's being sensitive, you just

(48:30):
need to power through thesethings.
No, no, no, it's self-awareness.
So then you know what you'regoing through, so then you can
manage it better, right.
And sometimes it's also a matterof, when you're facing a
microaggression or someonesaying something unhelpful,
being able to, you know, saysomething back.
So then you feel empowered,which is consistently feeling
disempowered.
Yeah, exactly, right.

(48:51):
And then have your own supportsystems, have your safe spaces
where you can talk about thesethings, so that you are
validated, because often whathappens is right.
Your mental health goes reallydown when your experiences keep
getting decontextualized.
Hmm, like you tell me something.
I'm like are you sure, gorazes,really, aren't you being a bit
sensitive?

(49:12):
If I said that to you, howwould that feel?

Gurasis (49:15):
Not the best.

Anne (49:16):
Right.
So have you right.
So have your safe people, yoursafe spaces, safe groups where
you can have these conversationsat least right to debrief,
discuss it, put it intoperspective and then you can
keep moving on with life.
So I think all these thingshave to be parallel and everyone
can't be doing anti-racism work, but at least when you see

(49:36):
these things happening, don't bea bystander, speak up, right.
That speaking up does not againmove in rebellious.
It means, like gentlychallenging the person, like
even saying why would you saythat?
I was saying, like when yousaid that I don't think that was
very helpful, or what did youactually mean by saying that?
So we can gently challengepeople, but when it happens to

(49:58):
us, it happens to other people.

Gurasis (50:01):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's something I always, youknow, promote that it's okay to
really question their comment ortell them that why are you
saying the things you are saying?
To the point where the theme ofmy podcast once someone told me
, you know, four years ago onthe phone that oh my God, you
have such a thick Indian accent.

(50:22):
And my pushback that person was, sir, you also have a thick
Canadian accent.
And after that that guy didn'tsay anything, he hung up the
call, he just giggled a littleand he stopped talking to me.
And there was also a point.
You also told me that you knowit's okay to take a step back
when it's too much.
What did you mean by that?

Anne (50:43):
So, grasis, think of it from the perspective of trauma.
Like each individual, our lives, it's not same.
It's so unique, it's sodifferent and each person's
capacity to tolerate things canbe very different, based on
what's happened to them and whatcontinues to happen to them.
So we can never say, like youknow, that person is able to

(51:04):
take in more, or that person ismore resilient.
No, each right.
So that's why it goes back toemotional intelligence, being
self-aware of how much you cantake.
When it's too much for you, youjust need to step back, like
even for me.
I do do the anti-racism workand I am very passionate about
it, but at times when it getstoo much for me, just
consistently, it feels like I'mhitting my head against a brick

(51:26):
wall when I'm met with so mucharrogance, this cultural
intelligence, people's denial,there's only so much I can do as
one.
So being humble and being ableto recognize okay, I need a
break.
Now I'm not here.
I cannot change the whole world.
Yes, I can give my small part,but I want to do my small part
well.
And to do my small part well, Ineed to recognize when I need a

(51:49):
break, go back, g-stress,ground myself, heal a little bit
more and then get back there.

Gurasis (51:56):
Yeah, absolutely, and I also use this phrase that
sometimes it's okay to step backwhen you know the other person
has loose screws.
There is no way really battlingwith the person right For sure.

Anne (52:09):
for sure yeah.

Gurasis (52:14):
So, ani, before we get to the next segment, you know
this one thing you said, and Ilove that when people come and
talk to you, they say that I'mso thankful that you can
understand me, which is contraryto the experiences they have
had before.
Tell us a little bit about that.
What did you mean?

Anne (52:32):
Yeah, that is good, as is in terms, especially more with
therapy in the counseling room,when my client, who is either an
immigrant or second generationimmigrant or first generation
immigrant or a mixed race person, basically a person who is
non-white, right, and they maybe coming for infomerate

(52:54):
counseling to manage theiranxiety, different things, but
it's all.
Everything is linked.
In your life, nothing is astandalone thing.
Yeah, because there's so manyfactors, right.
So then it does.
But then what happens?
Often when people go in forcounseling, right, and they are
with the mainstream therapist,the client hesitates to open up
that part of their experience,often because of the fear of

(53:17):
offending the therapist, right?
So then with me, I am not goingto ignore that.
I'm definitely going to try toexplore that area and that piece
of their identity.
And then they are so thankfulthat thank you for understanding
this, like, I'm so happy thatwe can have this conversation,
which makes me really sadbecause when I have most of my
clients the majority obviouslyare Caucasian mainstream people

(53:41):
I explore all areas of theirlife.
I do not shy away because I'mbrown.
So if I can do that, I thinkall therapists should be able to
do that and not just the fieldof mental health.
I think, whether you're a pop,you're a teacher, right, you
need to push themselves and givewhatever service you're giving
your client or your customer, ithas to be full.

Gurasis (54:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
You said it so correctly thatan immigrant can only understand
an immigrant's pain points,especially in context to the
upbringing, where we know how anIndian society is, how South
Asian society is, and that's notthe norm here.

(54:24):
Things are different here andif we go to somebody or to go to
a therapist, for example,somebody who is a native, they
might not have the livedexperience.
What do you have as a brownperson?
Right?
So you would be the rightperson to go and talk to, rather

(54:45):
than a white person.
I'm not saying they will nothelp you.
Of course their job is to helppeople, but maybe coming to you
would be a better way to unfoldthe reasons, the things that
they are going through, right,yeah, okay, anna.
So now we're in the finalsegment of the podcast.

(55:07):
I call it Beneath the Accentbecause we are knowing each
other beneath the accent.
I'm going to ask a couple ofquestions.
You can answer them in one wordor a sentence, or house ever
you feel like the idea is justto know more about you.
So ready, sure.
So what advice would you giveto Annie, who is in the initial
months of landing in Canada?

(55:27):
Don't lose hope.
So much.

Anne (55:29):
Don't get so frustrated.
Have more faith in yourself andyour potential.

Gurasis (55:34):
So what's the best piece of advice someone ever
gave you?
That what you think matters Is,then, your worst advice someone
ever gave you.

Anne (55:43):
Yeah, and it's more from a cultural perspective, where
it's more this constantindoctrination that as a woman,
you always have to put yourselfsecond.
That's not being helpful, andI'll tell you why it's not.
I am a very dedicated motherand I love my family and all
those things, but in thisprocess you don't help women

(56:06):
take care of themselves.
We don't.
Sometimes we don't even knowwhat self care looks like, right
, and then, as life goes on, ifthat's not there, it doesn't
lead to positive things.
So being able to take care ofmyself and then take care of
everyone else is yeah, it's veryimportant.

Gurasis (56:22):
Is there anything you recently bought and you're not
regret?

Anne (56:26):
Not really, because I'm not a big shopper or anything to
be honest, I go to the storeearly when I need something
really badly, so no, no.

Gurasis (56:36):
Yeah, so what's the most expensive thing you own?

Anne (56:40):
I would say Indian gold jewelry.

Gurasis (56:44):
Okay, so what's the most expensive thing you would
like to own?

Anne (56:49):
I honestly don't think there's anything like that.
I'm actually a very simpleperson, yeah, so there's nothing
like that.

Gurasis (57:00):
So what's next on your bucket list?

Anne (57:03):
Next on my bucket list is to go on a really good vacation
with both my kids.

Gurasis (57:08):
Sunny, who is your go-to person when you feel stuck
?

Anne (57:12):
My amazing best friend, Maria, who lives in India, who's
just like God and she's myangel, oh wow, awesome.

Gurasis (57:23):
Are there any movies you like to watch over and over
again?

Anne (57:27):
Yeah, a little bit, but just that I can remember now is
the sound of music that I usedto watch with my dad.
It always brings up very goodmemories for me and there are a
lot of Indian movies that Iwould like to watch again, and I
do watch quite a bit movieswith my kids.

Gurasis (57:46):
If you could have one superpower?
I think you already have one,but if you could have another
superpower, what would it be?

Anne (57:54):
I would want the rest is, in all honesty, to be able to
know and judge when I am beingto measure my kindness.
So often I get stuck in thesesituations where people misjudge
my kindness to be my weaknessand then take advantage of me.

(58:15):
So I wish for me it's my base,it's who I am to always see the
best in people, and I think it'sa very good thing.
I know it's a good thing, butsometimes it does not help me.
So I wish I could be able to dothat Okay interesting.

Gurasis (58:35):
So describe Canada in one word.
What a sentence.

Anne (58:41):
Land of opportunity.
You just need to believe inyourself.
Yeah, yeah, it can be amazing.
You just need to create yourown narrative of what it is and
go for what you want, and youwill definitely get it.
Yeah, that's why I say it's aland of opportunity.

Gurasis (59:01):
And finally, if you could leave me with one piece of
advice, what would it be?

Anne (59:07):
Oh, my God, grasses, I want to first of all say thank
you for doing what you're doing.
Please continue to do what youdo.
I think this is you know.
I really respect and admire youbecause this is something very
creative that you're doing.
You're reaching out to peopleand sharing their stories and
it's very empowering, like.
I listened to a lot of yourpodcasts and I learned so much.

(59:30):
So, yeah, please keep doingwhat you're doing, but
definitely I hope you have agood self care plan for yourself
.
So take care of yourself,because I would love you to keep
doing this.
Yeah.

Gurasis (59:42):
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you so much for youradvice, for your kind words.
I really, really appreciatethat and, on that note, thank
you so much, annie, for being onthe podcast and adding value to
my listeners.
Thank you, it's a pleasure.

Anne (59:54):
Thank you so much.
It was so beautiful talking toyou, I felt so much at ease and
I could just be my own self.
So thank you for creating thatbeautiful environment.
Thank you.

Gurasis (01:00:03):
Thank you.
Thanks a lot, hey listener.
Thank you for making it to theend.
I highly highly appreciate youlistening to the podcast.
Subscribe to the podcast if youhaven't as yet, and please
share with your friends oranybody you think would like it.
And, like I always say, weencourage you to follow your
heart, but also ask.
On Instagram, the handle ismythicaxon.

(01:00:24):
You can also leave us a reviewor write to us at
helloatmythicaxoncom.
So stay tuned and let'scontinue knowing each other
beneath the accent.

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Traversing Continents and Cultures: A Dialogue on Resilience, Societal Challenges and Mental Health | Ft. Anne Sureshkumar Ep. 038

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Traversing Continents and Cultures: A Dialogue on Resilience, Societal Challenges and Mental Health | Ft. Anne Sureshkumar Ep. 038