September 11, 2025 • 29 mins
Join us for a heartfelt conversation with Dr. Deborah Palmer, a nurse practitioner, educator, and wellness advocate. In this episode, Dr. Palmer shares her inspiring journey of overcoming personal challenges, including becoming a mother at just 14, while pursuing her dream of nursing. She emphasizes the importance of being true to oneself and keeping things simple, drawing on the wisdom of her mother and mentors who shaped her path. As we dive into her memoir, "Between Wounded and Well," she discusses the significance of acknowledging our wounds and the healing process involved in personal growth. We also explore the evolving landscape of nursing and the vital role nurses play in advocating for patient care in today's healthcare system, reminding us all that hope and connection are essential for true wellness.
Dr. Deborah Palmer joins us for a heartfelt discussion about her journey from a young mother to a respected nurse practitioner and author. In this episode, we dive into her memoir 'Between Wounded and Well,' where she shares profound lessons learned during her challenging path in the nursing profession. Dr. Palmer emphasizes the importance of authenticity, encouraging listeners to be true to themselves and embrace simplicity in their lives. Her experiences highlight the mentors who shaped her career, such as her grandmother and influential nurses, who instilled in her a deep sense of empathy and leadership. We explore the challenges she faced while raising a family and pursuing her nursing degree, showcasing the resilience and determination that fueled her dreams. Dr. Palmer's insights into the nature of healing, especially in light of the COVID-19 pandemic, prompt a reflection on the emotional and spiritual dimensions of wellness, extending beyond the physical aspects of healthcare. This episode is not just a narrative of personal triumph but also a powerful reminder of the importance of community support and the human connection in the healing process.
Takeaways:
- Dr. Deborah Palmer emphasizes the importance of being true to oneself, illustrating how embracing our authentic selves leads to personal growth and fulfillment.
- In her journey to becoming a nurse practitioner, Dr. Palmer faced numerous challenges, including unexpected pregnancies and financial struggles, which taught her the value of asking for help.
- Deborah's memoir, 'Between Wounded and Well', explores the concept of healing as a process that requires both giving and receiving support from others.
- The podcast highlights how the COVID-19 pandemic has intensified mental health challenges among healthcare professionals, urging a collective call to action for healing and support within the community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
My guest today is Dr. DeborahPalmer. She is a nurse practitioner,
educator and wellnesspromoter. She is author of Between
Wounded and well Lessons inHealing, a memoir about a 14 year
old mother with a dream ofbecoming a nurse. We welcome Deborah
to the podcast. Well, Dr.Palmer, welcome to the podcast. How
you doing today?
(00:22):
I'm doing great, thank you.
It's good to have you on. SoI'm going to ask you my favorite
question to get you off to agood start. What's the best piece
of advice you ever received?
You know, I've had a lot ofgood advice, but the two pieces that
really stick it to my mind arethe ones that were the hardest to
embrace. And the first one wasjust be who you are. Just be yourself.
(00:45):
Be true to who you are andyour values and your beliefs. And
the second one, my dearmother, who liked to keep everything
as simple as could be, wouldalways say, just keep it simple.
Debbie, why do you have tocomplicate everything?
Right?
Yeah, I think I used tooverthink too many things and that
just caused what they callanalysis paralysis.
(01:06):
Of course. Yeah, we can, wecan get into our own head and never
let ourselves really kind ofbreathe a little bit.
So, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm curious, as you thinkabout your journey in life, who were
some people who served as amentor for you or an inspiration
to. Here's your chance, kindof give them a thank you for playing
such an important role in your life?
(01:27):
Well, dear Grandma up inheaven, she just was the model of
kindness. Why not want to usethat as a mentor? So I would say,
first of all, my grandmother.But the other one comes to mind is
all the nurses in my life,particularly my first two head nurses,
who really help me understandempathy, leadership and a work ethic.
(01:52):
And my last mentor that was anurse, Dr. Roberta Haley. I wrote
about her in my book. She wasmy first mentor as a nurse practitioner
and she volunteered in theorthodontist office. When she found
out I was going to go to NPschool, she handed me my car, her
card, and said, if you everneed a mentor, let me know. Not only
(02:14):
did she mentor me as a nursepractitioner, she mentored me in
the art of relationshipbuilding. Never once did she leave
me to go to lunch on my own.She always included me or a staff
meeting or a social event forwork friends. And that was the beginning
of a lifelong friendship thatis woven throughout my story.
(02:35):
Oh, that's so neat. You know,you need those people in your life
who kind of take you undertheir wing and kind of Help you along
the way, because then you canpass that down to another generation
of nurses.
Absolutely.
That's great. So, Dr. Palmer,your story begins with you becoming
a mom at 14 and dreaming ofbecoming a nurse. Can you take us
back to that time and kind ofshare what kept your dream alive
(02:58):
with all the challenges youmight have faced?
You know, the only thing I canthink of is a quote that I just read
recently, and it was somethinglike this. Your calling is your calling,
if it keeps calling you. Andfrom a very young age, I just felt
(03:18):
called, or another way tophrase it, I just had this desire
in my heart, and I've come toidentify that as desires from my
creator to go into that field.I also had wonderful people who were
modeling compassionate nursingcare to me. That probably inspired
me as well.
I love that. Yeah, it's kindof like we, as a pastor, we always
(03:40):
have that same thing. There'sthat calling that gets you to go
to the seminary, but you don'tknow if it's really verified until
you actually get that firstchurch that you're at.
Nice analogy, right?
And I always tell people, makesure the calling is not just bad
pizza, but it actually is God calling.
Well, it's funny you've saidthat, because my first day as a nursing
(04:01):
student, I was only 17 yearsold when I entered nursing school.
And back then, everybody worewhite. And I walked into the cafeteria
to a sea of white uniforms,white caps. I almost fainted. And
then that first time, havingto take care of a wound and suck
the pus out of it, I almostfainted. So I questioned it for a
(04:23):
few moments where that was inthe right calling.
Right.
But I kept going.
I love that. What were some ofthe biggest obstacles you faced on
your path to becoming a nursepractitioner, and how did you overcome
those?
So as a nurse practitionerstudent, I would say that was the
first set of obstacles. It'salways money, finances. And then
(04:44):
I was married, and I had ateenager, and then I had an unexpected
pregnancy. In the middle of mytraining, my husband and I were both
told we'd never be able tohave children, so I welcomed it with
joy. But in the middle of mytraining, it was a bit of an obstacle.
And I was scheduled to undergofacial reconstructive surgery. My
whole upper jaw was realigned,broken and realigned. So I kind of
(05:10):
interfered with gettingthrough the school. So to overcome
all those things, I would saythe first thing I had to do was ask
for help. I needed financialassistance as a student. I needed
everybody to Step up at home.We needed to share duties at home
because work life balance gotreally tough. So working that out
with my husband and myteenager, asking neighbors and friends
(05:34):
for help, we started co oping.I had a colleague who was also a
nursing student and we bothhad babies. So we kind of shared
a little bit of that for ashort period of time. So asking for
help and really being honestwith myself what my limitations were,
I had to swallow my pride anddecide to graduate a little later
(05:56):
than planned. I had to delaythat gratification for gratitude
for graduation and cut back mywork hours. And I had this profound
sense of gratitude of havingthis baby when we were told we would
never have children together.So I decided no more working on Sundays,
not at all. Even thoughweekends were my only time to work
(06:17):
as a student with clinicalhours during the week. So giving
up my work hours, honoring theSabbath, it really did help. And
I prayed a lot. I prayedexpectantly and it helped.
I love it. So let's talk aboutyour book.
Yes.
Between it and.
Well, my new titles I have tochoose from are behind me. Yes. What
(06:41):
would you like to know?
So tell us about what led youto write this book.
I recognized a pattern inmyself called codependency. And I
discovered a lot of people inthe caring professions, social work,
clergy, nurses, also have theexperience of codependency, where
(07:05):
we care for others to thepoint of not caring well for ourselves.
So that was one reason. Butalso this post Covid time is when
I first summarized 40 years ofmy journals to start writing. I recognize
that that time in our historyamplified what was already happening.
(07:26):
And that was an epidemic ofmental health challenges. And that
just watching on TV what wasgoing on in the hospitals and the
nurses just kind of triggeredmy own experience as an ICU nurse
in the HIV wards. And so Ijust had this empathy for nurses
and this recognition that ourcountry needs to heal. There is a
(07:47):
tremendous problem withaddiction and depression and suicide.
And I knew those firsthand inmy own family background. So those
were some of the triggers thatprompted me to write it.
So tell us about your title.I'm sure as I was writing my book
titles were the hardest thingto kind of come up with. What does
(08:08):
that title mean to you?
Sure, between is a key word.You see, everybody's wounded. It's
a given at one point in timeor another. I believe it's as universal
as the weather. And weather isimportant. It's not good or bad,
but it's necessary. And Ithink that's true. Of our wounds.
(08:29):
So we all start with some kindof woundedness at some point in time.
But if we expect, getting wellis something you can measure, you
can't. It's the process, thecycle in between. The time you feel
wounded and you experience thefeeling better, the improvements.
It's a. Between that cyclingof a consistent giving and taking,
(08:55):
sharing and receiving,acknowledging when you need to take
on or. Or be taken. It mightbe gifts, talents, skills from another
person, kind words, a pat onthe back, but it's a daily thing,
and it never happens alone.It's always in relationship. So that's.
(09:16):
And it's a gift. The gift iswhen we give and we receive, and
it's always reciprocal. Sothat's kind of the essence behind
my title.
I know when you do a bookthat's so much about yourself, there
are always difficult parts towrite. What did you find to be the
most difficult part of yourbook to write or revisit as you kind
(09:37):
of put together this memoir.
To be truthful? Every bit ofit. Yeah, every bit of it was hard.
And I shed a lot of tears. Andthrough that process, I learned a
lot about myself. And when youlearn about yourself, when you examine
(09:59):
yourself deeply, youunderstand what gave purpose in your
life, what was meaningful inyour life. And so it was healing
me as I was writing it, whichkept inspiring me to keep writing
it. And I realized that it'san important process, that constant
(10:21):
reflection. And we get toobusy in our lives sometimes to take
time out to reflect on that.Now, I'm not sure if I answered that
fully.
No, you did, because I thinkthat's very helpful, because I think
when you really think aboutany book, about ourselves, we have
to, first of all, go deep intoreflection about what emotions was
I feeling? And you may relivesome of those emotions. And you're
(10:44):
right, it gives us a chance toheal, forgive that particular phase
of our life that maybe wenever. We never really addressed,
we just kind of tried to moveon from. Because oftentimes when
we're in the middle ofsomething, we just want to get beyond
it, and we just don't want todeal with. We just want to get beyond
it and feel better.
And one thing that helped meget beyond it was the aha moment
(11:05):
when I said to myself, thisbook isn't about me. This book is
about everybody in my life, onmy journey that contributed to who
I am and how I became who Iam. So it was actually a tribute
to everyone whose skills,talents, kind words, embraces, prayers
(11:27):
that I Received and that Ihelped back in some way or another.
I love that. Do you seeyourself as kind of a wellness promoter?
Kind of talk about how do youdefine healing as a nurse? I'm sure
we think of healing as let'sjust get the body together, but there's,
there's so much more tohealing than just healing the physical.
(11:48):
So maybe talk about yourperspective of healing.
Yeah, my perspectivedefinitely changed from that 17 year
old student nurse. I evolvedin my understanding. Initially it
was all about measurements,blood pressures, lab tests, the physical
side of who we are. And then Iembrace. Oh, with more training,
(12:10):
there's a whole emotionalwellness. But beyond that, I recognize
for me wellness and healing isreally all about acknowledging what
we don't have control of andletting go of it and acknowledging
when we need something to helpus get through whatever the struggle
(12:31):
is and to ask for it. Lettinggo and receiving that which gives
you a sense of healing.
Yeah, that's very touching.You mentioned something I want to
kind of visit back because Iremember thinking about the health
industry and healing and Covidand how it impacted so profoundly
(12:54):
our society. As someone whowas going through that time, what
was it like for nurses,especially during the whole Covid
era?
I felt our country was beingmanipulated and I was angry. Now
I try to stay positive. Iwasn't planning to share this, but
(13:17):
as a scientist with a PhD inresearch, I have always used science
to back health care decisions.And I saw a lot of misinformation
being sent around and peoplemaking decisions based primarily
on emotion. Now, emotion isimportant, but I came from a research
(13:39):
background, so it was, it wasa big struggle for me to see information
manipulated and hidden. Andthen I saw some divisions in my own
profession. Yeah, I saw my ownnursing colleagues, I won't say turn
on each other, but not beunited in our approach. Now since
(14:01):
then, the American Nursingassociation has made a huge effort
and successfully so, to bringtogether the minds of nurses to unite
in what we believe abouthealth and healing and following
science to promote health care.
One thing I always appreciateabout nurses, even so, more than
doctors. It's not a slam ondoctors, but. But nurses seem to
(14:25):
be the ones who really are thefront end of the caring and listening
to the patient's part. Howhave you, in your work as a nurse
really kind of refined thatability to hear and communicate what
the patient is going throughto the doctor.
Oh, to the doctor. They don'talways want to hear it.
(14:47):
Right.
I've struggled with this as anICU nurse. I heard the Nurse. I heard
the family say he never wantedto be kept alive on machines. And
I would have to go to thedoctor or the team of residents and
advocate for my patients,bring in the clergy. That was one
of the more difficult times ofdoing that. Another time that comes
(15:09):
to mind is when the doctorwanted the patient to show up for
a visit in the clinic, whichwas seven. It's about a two and a
half hour bus ride to getthere with a long leg cast and crutches.
And I said, Surely Dr. C, youdon't have to see him. Can't I see
him much closer to where helives? Let's book him with me at
(15:31):
another clinic and I'll bringthe X rays to you. Back in the day
when we couldn't send himelectronically. Oh, what do you mean?
He has a two hour bus ride. Hedoesn't drive. He's got a long leg
cast on and he didn't drive tobegin with. So just bringing it,
the humanity into the story sometimes.
Yeah, that, that's soimportant. I remember a couple of
(15:53):
times working with doctors andthey, they don't, they didn't listen.
They only have a certainamount of time with patients and
so they come in with theirpre, pre prescribed solutions and
never listen. And I remembertalking to one doctor just recently.
I'm like, you want to upmedication? For what reason? Well,
you need to meet the doubleit. I'm like, but have you even seen
(16:15):
any result that would afforddoubling something? So I appreciate
the fact that you have. Nursesare sometimes an advocate between
the patient and doctor andthat very tenuous relationship that
you have with the medical profession.
As a nurse practitioner, wepractice under our own license. We
(16:38):
are an advocate of the patientfirst. Unlike our colleague physician
assistants who practice underthe license of an md I feel they're
an extension of the md. Idon't view myself as an extension
of an md As a matter of fact,my first job interview was an argument
(16:58):
with the person interviewingme. What's the difference between
a nurse practitioner and aphysician assistant? And I tried
to explain it and I went homeand I said, I didn't get the job.
All we did was argue about therole between the two of us. Well,
I did get the job and 10 yearslater I asked him, do you remember
that conversation? Of course Ido. Debbie, you're working with 18
(17:20):
orthopedic surgeons. I had tobe sure you could stand your ground.
Oh, it was an intentionallysetup to see how I would handle your
confrontations, which kind ofgoes back to your Previous question
How would I handle somethingwith a physician if we don't always
agree?
Right. How. How would. As youlook at the landscape of nursing
(17:43):
today and the healthcareprofession, what do you see that
is changing in. In that areathat you maybe from when you started
years ago?
Well, there's two hugechanges, and that's just in our demographics.
For the first time ever on theplanet Earth, we probably have seven
generations existing. And inthis country, we are the most diverse
(18:06):
we have ever been. And fromthe perspective of a nurse, it forces
us to examine what thesedifferences mean, to get into the
mindset of what matters to ourpatients so that we can personalize
patient care. Each generationhas different preferences for something
as simple as how they want tobe addressed. So understanding the
(18:29):
differences and setting asideyour own beliefs about what you think
the golden rule is, whichwould be better best for them. And
employ the platinum rule thatasks what would you like? What matters
to you? And embrace that,honor it and respect it, regardless
of what your own beliefs are.
I'm curious if you were tryingto define the difference between
(18:51):
how you would define wellnessand how wellness is defined traditionally
in medicine. Is there adifference or is there a disconnect?
Because I think as a patientwe feel like maybe nurse practitioners
get it differently than maybedoctors do. When you talk about wellness,
am I missing the mark on that?
(19:11):
Well, physicians are trainedto manage diseases. They base their
care on a medical model.They're trying to fix something.
They're trying to makesomething better. Nurses have traditionally
based their care on a wellnessmodel to promote wellness by preventing
(19:31):
disease. And then I practiceon both. I'm trained both in the
art of nursing and the scienceof medicine. So I try to bridge both
to manage chronic diseases, orI did when I was in practice, as
well as manage a person'swellness. So my visits would include,
have you kept up with yourpreventative medicine? Have you had
(19:55):
your mammogram? When's thelast time you had your hemoglobin
A1C check for your diabetes?As a nurse practitioner, that would
be included in an orthopedicvisit? Not necessarily so if you're
seeing just the surgeon.However, I have to give credit to
one of my former employees.Employers Kaiser Permanente has made
(20:15):
a huge effort to includeprevention care in all of their patient
visits. However, time doesn'talways allow it, and NPs generally
will fit it in a little easierthan a physician will.
I love it. So tell us aboutmore about your book. When is it
coming out? And when can. Howcan People find it, buy it.
(20:39):
It's due out the last week ofSeptember, and I hope to have it
on Amazon, a print version andan ebook version. And the Spanish
translation just gotcompleted. I'm reviewing that with
somebody who can read Spanishright now, and I hope to have that
up by the end of the year. Andalso, if you want to just keep track
on my website,www.debrapalmer.com, i will have
(21:04):
updates on my website for howyou can pre order it.
That's so exciting. And what'snext for you? Is there another book
in the works or is this thelast one?
No. In my heart, after writingthis book, I realized my Native American
ancestry meant a lot to me. Somy next book will be historical fiction
(21:28):
based on Lakota and Ojibwe,Native American ancestors in my family
lineage.
Oh, that's so neat. We don'thave enough books about that to kind
of pour into that.
And it bridges also the furtrading profession, the voyagers,
because they were. Many ofthem were married to French fur traders
(21:52):
in the 1600s and 1700s.
So what one lesson do you hopereaders get from your book?
Never give up hope. Hope iswhat anchors all of our purposes.
And without hope, you don'thave a meaning, a reason to get up
(22:13):
the next day. And it's whatkeeps us going.
I love it. If you werespeaking to someone who was about
to enter your field and juststarting out today, what advice do
you have for them?
Well, it kind of goes back towhat I said earlier about really
understanding your patientstoday and employing that platinum
(22:37):
rule more so than the goldenrule. But aside from that, I would
say really take the time.Invest in understanding who you are,
what you believe, and whatyour values are, what drives you,
and where do you get yourstrength from. If you're not feeling
well and strong, it's hard tobe that person your patient needs
(22:59):
you to be.
Yeah, the caregiver needs totake care of the caregiver.
Yeah. Yeah.
So in season six of thepodcast, we have something new. We
have the guest gets to pick asurprise question you did not get
ahead of time. So pick anumber between one and four for your
surprise question.
Three.
Three. All right. Oh. Sowhat's something that most people
(23:24):
would never guess about?
Well, I traveled to Guatemalathree times and ran a medical mission.
Wow. And how was that?
It was the first time, it wasconfusing. I wasn't the leader. The
(23:46):
second time, I took charge andI recruited the team and I loved
it. I got a lot of doctors andnurses from where I was working at
the time and throughout theUnited Methodist Church, which was
helping to support thisprogram. And what I learned is happiness
does not depend on wealth andthings. Because these clients that
(24:09):
I saw very by our standards,poor, impoverished, walked miles
in bare feet, dragging sixkids behind them to come to a clinic
to see us. And while theywaited patiently for their turn,
they joyfully played withtheir children and laughed and hugged
and it was a sight to behold.And I was so glad I was able to bring
(24:32):
my teenage children one ofthem each time I went. And that is
just that happiness issomething we make from inside of
us. It's not something thatcomes from outside of us.
Yeah, that's so true. Anddoing something for somebody else
is so rewarding when you canactually pour your pour into someone
else's life besides your own.
(24:53):
Yeah, that too.
So I love to ask my guest thisother question. What do you want
your legacy to be?
I want my legacy to be that Iwas an encourager of people to grow
in their health and well beingas well as their spiritual well being
and that I modeled behaviorsthat helped and I provided support
(25:17):
when I was able to. That is myhope and dream as a legacy.
And that's very commendablebecause that is such a powerful legacy
to leave behind. People saythat about you as you're no longer
with us.
Well, I had people do that for me.
Yeah.
And you mentioned earlier howimportant it is to give back or pay
it forward, so to speak. Yeah, yeah.
(25:39):
So, Deborah, I'm curious,where can people find your book when
it comes out and how can itconnect with you best on social media?
So I am revamping Facebook andI'm just learning how to use that.
But you can go to my website,www.deborahpalmer.com and I will
have it online. Amazon, KD,Kindle Direct, and I'm hoping for
(26:04):
bookstores. I'm going to haveit distributed through ingramsparks
as well. Keep asking for itstarting the end of September and
your local bookstore will bemore likely to order it.
There you go. I know. I'mdoing that myself now with my own
book. So we're trying to getinto people's hands.
It's a process.
It is. No one knows writing isjust one piece of it now. Promoting
(26:26):
it's the other, other bighurdle you have to do.
Are you self publishing, Kevin?
No, I didn't. It's actuallypublished through a WIPF press and
so it's out on Amazon andBarnes and Noble. So yeah, it's out
of several that helps a lot.
But I've been told evenpublishers expect you to do a lot
(26:47):
of the marketing on your own.
They do. I just had to do aone page presser and now I'm trying
to get on other podcastsmyself to talk about the book.
So, yes, check out NationalPublicity Summit.
Yes, that's where we met. Good place.
Yes, it is.
So, as we wrap up this greatconversation, what would you want
(27:09):
to leave with the audience askind of a takeaway from our conversation
today?
Be courageous. Don't let feardrive you. I have embraced every
interview, every invitation. Igot into podcast interviews so far.
You're my third one. And Ithink if I had let my fear guide
(27:32):
me, I wouldn't be doing this.And I have enjoyed it way more than
I ever thought I would. Sotake risks. Be courageous. Don't
let fear be the driving forcein your life.
Well, you were an amazingguest and thank you for coming on
and sharing with us your heartand your story. And may your book
be a rousing success thatinspires other people to wellness
(27:52):
and not just physical, butmental and spiritual as well.
You success with your book aswell. You're a great host. Thank
you for having me.
Well, thank you do Deborah.Have a blessed day.
As soon as I get my Facebookthing figured out, I will post this
on my other.
Great. We'll appreciate that.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you.
Have a great day.
(28:13):
You too.
My guest today is Dr. DeborahPalmer. She is a nurse practitioner,
educator and wellnesspromoter. She is author of Between
Wounded and well Lessons inHealing, a memoir about a 14 year
old mother with a dream ofbecoming a nurse. We welcome Deborah
to the podcast. Well, Dr.Palmer, welcome to the podcast. How
you doing today?
(00:22):
I'm doing great, thank you.
It's good to have you on. SoI'm going to ask you my favorite
question to get you off to agood start. What's the best piece
of advice you ever received?
You know, I've had a lot ofgood advice, but the two pieces that
really stick it to my mind arethe ones that were the hardest to
embrace. And the first one wasjust be who you are. Just be yourself.
(00:45):
Be true to who you are andyour values and your beliefs. And
the second one, my dearmother, who liked to keep everything
as simple as could be, wouldalways say, just keep it simple.
Debbie, why do you have tocomplicate everything?
Right?
Yeah, I think I used tooverthink too many things and that
just caused what they callanalysis paralysis.
(01:06):
Of course. Yeah, we can, wecan get into our own head and never
let ourselves really kind ofbreathe a little bit.
So, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm curious, as you thinkabout your journey in life, who were
some people who served as amentor for you or an inspiration
to. Here's your chance, kindof give them a thank you for playing
such an important role in your life?
(01:27):
Well, dear Grandma up inheaven, she just was the model of
kindness. Why not want to usethat as a mentor? So I would say,
first of all, my grandmother.But the other one comes to mind is
all the nurses in my life,particularly my first two head nurses,
who really help me understandempathy, leadership and a work ethic.
(01:52):
And my last mentor that was anurse, Dr. Roberta Haley. I wrote
about her in my book. She wasmy first mentor as a nurse practitioner
and she volunteered in theorthodontist office. When she found
out I was going to go to NPschool, she handed me my car, her
card, and said, if you everneed a mentor, let me know. Not only
(02:14):
did she mentor me as a nursepractitioner, she mentored me in
the art of relationshipbuilding. Never once did she leave
me to go to lunch on my own.She always included me or a staff
meeting or a social event forwork friends. And that was the beginning
of a lifelong friendship thatis woven throughout my story.
(02:35):
Oh, that's so neat. You know,you need those people in your life
who kind of take you undertheir wing and kind of Help you along
the way, because then you canpass that down to another generation
of nurses.
Absolutely.
That's great. So, Dr. Palmer,your story begins with you becoming
a mom at 14 and dreaming ofbecoming a nurse. Can you take us
back to that time and kind ofshare what kept your dream alive
(02:58):
with all the challenges youmight have faced?
You know, the only thing I canthink of is a quote that I just read
recently, and it was somethinglike this. Your calling is your calling,
if it keeps calling you. Andfrom a very young age, I just felt
(03:18):
called, or another way tophrase it, I just had this desire
in my heart, and I've come toidentify that as desires from my
creator to go into that field.I also had wonderful people who were
modeling compassionate nursingcare to me. That probably inspired
me as well.
I love that. Yeah, it's kindof like we, as a pastor, we always
(03:40):
have that same thing. There'sthat calling that gets you to go
to the seminary, but you don'tknow if it's really verified until
you actually get that firstchurch that you're at.
Nice analogy, right?
And I always tell people, makesure the calling is not just bad
pizza, but it actually is God calling.
Well, it's funny you've saidthat, because my first day as a nursing
(04:01):
student, I was only 17 yearsold when I entered nursing school.
And back then, everybody worewhite. And I walked into the cafeteria
to a sea of white uniforms,white caps. I almost fainted. And
then that first time, havingto take care of a wound and suck
the pus out of it, I almostfainted. So I questioned it for a
(04:23):
few moments where that was inthe right calling.
Right.
But I kept going.
I love that. What were some ofthe biggest obstacles you faced on
your path to becoming a nursepractitioner, and how did you overcome
those?
So as a nurse practitionerstudent, I would say that was the
first set of obstacles. It'salways money, finances. And then
(04:44):
I was married, and I had ateenager, and then I had an unexpected
pregnancy. In the middle of mytraining, my husband and I were both
told we'd never be able tohave children, so I welcomed it with
joy. But in the middle of mytraining, it was a bit of an obstacle.
And I was scheduled to undergofacial reconstructive surgery. My
whole upper jaw was realigned,broken and realigned. So I kind of
(05:10):
interfered with gettingthrough the school. So to overcome
all those things, I would saythe first thing I had to do was ask
for help. I needed financialassistance as a student. I needed
everybody to Step up at home.We needed to share duties at home
because work life balance gotreally tough. So working that out
with my husband and myteenager, asking neighbors and friends
(05:34):
for help, we started co oping.I had a colleague who was also a
nursing student and we bothhad babies. So we kind of shared
a little bit of that for ashort period of time. So asking for
help and really being honestwith myself what my limitations were,
I had to swallow my pride anddecide to graduate a little later
(05:56):
than planned. I had to delaythat gratification for gratitude
for graduation and cut back mywork hours. And I had this profound
sense of gratitude of havingthis baby when we were told we would
never have children together.So I decided no more working on Sundays,
not at all. Even thoughweekends were my only time to work
(06:17):
as a student with clinicalhours during the week. So giving
up my work hours, honoring theSabbath, it really did help. And
I prayed a lot. I prayedexpectantly and it helped.
I love it. So let's talk aboutyour book.
Yes.
Between it and.
Well, my new titles I have tochoose from are behind me. Yes. What
(06:41):
would you like to know?
So tell us about what led youto write this book.
I recognized a pattern inmyself called codependency. And I
discovered a lot of people inthe caring professions, social work,
clergy, nurses, also have theexperience of codependency, where
(07:05):
we care for others to thepoint of not caring well for ourselves.
So that was one reason. Butalso this post Covid time is when
I first summarized 40 years ofmy journals to start writing. I recognize
that that time in our historyamplified what was already happening.
(07:26):
And that was an epidemic ofmental health challenges. And that
just watching on TV what wasgoing on in the hospitals and the
nurses just kind of triggeredmy own experience as an ICU nurse
in the HIV wards. And so Ijust had this empathy for nurses
and this recognition that ourcountry needs to heal. There is a
(07:47):
tremendous problem withaddiction and depression and suicide.
And I knew those firsthand inmy own family background. So those
were some of the triggers thatprompted me to write it.
So tell us about your title.I'm sure as I was writing my book
titles were the hardest thingto kind of come up with. What does
(08:08):
that title mean to you?
Sure, between is a key word.You see, everybody's wounded. It's
a given at one point in timeor another. I believe it's as universal
as the weather. And weather isimportant. It's not good or bad,
but it's necessary. And Ithink that's true. Of our wounds.
(08:29):
So we all start with some kindof woundedness at some point in time.
But if we expect, getting wellis something you can measure, you
can't. It's the process, thecycle in between. The time you feel
wounded and you experience thefeeling better, the improvements.
It's a. Between that cyclingof a consistent giving and taking,
(08:55):
sharing and receiving,acknowledging when you need to take
on or. Or be taken. It mightbe gifts, talents, skills from another
person, kind words, a pat onthe back, but it's a daily thing,
and it never happens alone.It's always in relationship. So that's.
(09:16):
And it's a gift. The gift iswhen we give and we receive, and
it's always reciprocal. Sothat's kind of the essence behind
my title.
I know when you do a bookthat's so much about yourself, there
are always difficult parts towrite. What did you find to be the
most difficult part of yourbook to write or revisit as you kind
(09:37):
of put together this memoir.
To be truthful? Every bit ofit. Yeah, every bit of it was hard.
And I shed a lot of tears. Andthrough that process, I learned a
lot about myself. And when youlearn about yourself, when you examine
(09:59):
yourself deeply, youunderstand what gave purpose in your
life, what was meaningful inyour life. And so it was healing
me as I was writing it, whichkept inspiring me to keep writing
it. And I realized that it'san important process, that constant
(10:21):
reflection. And we get toobusy in our lives sometimes to take
time out to reflect on that.Now, I'm not sure if I answered that
fully.
No, you did, because I thinkthat's very helpful, because I think
when you really think aboutany book, about ourselves, we have
to, first of all, go deep intoreflection about what emotions was
I feeling? And you may relivesome of those emotions. And you're
(10:44):
right, it gives us a chance toheal, forgive that particular phase
of our life that maybe wenever. We never really addressed,
we just kind of tried to moveon from. Because oftentimes when
we're in the middle ofsomething, we just want to get beyond
it, and we just don't want todeal with. We just want to get beyond
it and feel better.
And one thing that helped meget beyond it was the aha moment
(11:05):
when I said to myself, thisbook isn't about me. This book is
about everybody in my life, onmy journey that contributed to who
I am and how I became who Iam. So it was actually a tribute
to everyone whose skills,talents, kind words, embraces, prayers
(11:27):
that I Received and that Ihelped back in some way or another.
I love that. Do you seeyourself as kind of a wellness promoter?
Kind of talk about how do youdefine healing as a nurse? I'm sure
we think of healing as let'sjust get the body together, but there's,
there's so much more tohealing than just healing the physical.
(11:48):
So maybe talk about yourperspective of healing.
Yeah, my perspectivedefinitely changed from that 17 year
old student nurse. I evolvedin my understanding. Initially it
was all about measurements,blood pressures, lab tests, the physical
side of who we are. And then Iembrace. Oh, with more training,
(12:10):
there's a whole emotionalwellness. But beyond that, I recognize
for me wellness and healing isreally all about acknowledging what
we don't have control of andletting go of it and acknowledging
when we need something to helpus get through whatever the struggle
(12:31):
is and to ask for it. Lettinggo and receiving that which gives
you a sense of healing.
Yeah, that's very touching.You mentioned something I want to
kind of visit back because Iremember thinking about the health
industry and healing and Covidand how it impacted so profoundly
(12:54):
our society. As someone whowas going through that time, what
was it like for nurses,especially during the whole Covid
era?
I felt our country was beingmanipulated and I was angry. Now
I try to stay positive. Iwasn't planning to share this, but
(13:17):
as a scientist with a PhD inresearch, I have always used science
to back health care decisions.And I saw a lot of misinformation
being sent around and peoplemaking decisions based primarily
on emotion. Now, emotion isimportant, but I came from a research
(13:39):
background, so it was, it wasa big struggle for me to see information
manipulated and hidden. Andthen I saw some divisions in my own
profession. Yeah, I saw my ownnursing colleagues, I won't say turn
on each other, but not beunited in our approach. Now since
(14:01):
then, the American Nursingassociation has made a huge effort
and successfully so, to bringtogether the minds of nurses to unite
in what we believe abouthealth and healing and following
science to promote health care.
One thing I always appreciateabout nurses, even so, more than
doctors. It's not a slam ondoctors, but. But nurses seem to
(14:25):
be the ones who really are thefront end of the caring and listening
to the patient's part. Howhave you, in your work as a nurse
really kind of refined thatability to hear and communicate what
the patient is going throughto the doctor.
Oh, to the doctor. They don'talways want to hear it.
(14:47):
Right.
I've struggled with this as anICU nurse. I heard the Nurse. I heard
the family say he never wantedto be kept alive on machines. And
I would have to go to thedoctor or the team of residents and
advocate for my patients,bring in the clergy. That was one
of the more difficult times ofdoing that. Another time that comes
(15:09):
to mind is when the doctorwanted the patient to show up for
a visit in the clinic, whichwas seven. It's about a two and a
half hour bus ride to getthere with a long leg cast and crutches.
And I said, Surely Dr. C, youdon't have to see him. Can't I see
him much closer to where helives? Let's book him with me at
(15:31):
another clinic and I'll bringthe X rays to you. Back in the day
when we couldn't send himelectronically. Oh, what do you mean?
He has a two hour bus ride. Hedoesn't drive. He's got a long leg
cast on and he didn't drive tobegin with. So just bringing it,
the humanity into the story sometimes.
Yeah, that, that's soimportant. I remember a couple of
(15:53):
times working with doctors andthey, they don't, they didn't listen.
They only have a certainamount of time with patients and
so they come in with theirpre, pre prescribed solutions and
never listen. And I remembertalking to one doctor just recently.
I'm like, you want to upmedication? For what reason? Well,
you need to meet the doubleit. I'm like, but have you even seen
(16:15):
any result that would afforddoubling something? So I appreciate
the fact that you have. Nursesare sometimes an advocate between
the patient and doctor andthat very tenuous relationship that
you have with the medical profession.
As a nurse practitioner, wepractice under our own license. We
(16:38):
are an advocate of the patientfirst. Unlike our colleague physician
assistants who practice underthe license of an md I feel they're
an extension of the md. Idon't view myself as an extension
of an md As a matter of fact,my first job interview was an argument
(16:58):
with the person interviewingme. What's the difference between
a nurse practitioner and aphysician assistant? And I tried
to explain it and I went homeand I said, I didn't get the job.
All we did was argue about therole between the two of us. Well,
I did get the job and 10 yearslater I asked him, do you remember
that conversation? Of course Ido. Debbie, you're working with 18
(17:20):
orthopedic surgeons. I had tobe sure you could stand your ground.
Oh, it was an intentionallysetup to see how I would handle your
confrontations, which kind ofgoes back to your Previous question
How would I handle somethingwith a physician if we don't always
agree?
Right. How. How would. As youlook at the landscape of nursing
(17:43):
today and the healthcareprofession, what do you see that
is changing in. In that areathat you maybe from when you started
years ago?
Well, there's two hugechanges, and that's just in our demographics.
For the first time ever on theplanet Earth, we probably have seven
generations existing. And inthis country, we are the most diverse
(18:06):
we have ever been. And fromthe perspective of a nurse, it forces
us to examine what thesedifferences mean, to get into the
mindset of what matters to ourpatients so that we can personalize
patient care. Each generationhas different preferences for something
as simple as how they want tobe addressed. So understanding the
(18:29):
differences and setting asideyour own beliefs about what you think
the golden rule is, whichwould be better best for them. And
employ the platinum rule thatasks what would you like? What matters
to you? And embrace that,honor it and respect it, regardless
of what your own beliefs are.
I'm curious if you were tryingto define the difference between
(18:51):
how you would define wellnessand how wellness is defined traditionally
in medicine. Is there adifference or is there a disconnect?
Because I think as a patientwe feel like maybe nurse practitioners
get it differently than maybedoctors do. When you talk about wellness,
am I missing the mark on that?
(19:11):
Well, physicians are trainedto manage diseases. They base their
care on a medical model.They're trying to fix something.
They're trying to makesomething better. Nurses have traditionally
based their care on a wellnessmodel to promote wellness by preventing
(19:31):
disease. And then I practiceon both. I'm trained both in the
art of nursing and the scienceof medicine. So I try to bridge both
to manage chronic diseases, orI did when I was in practice, as
well as manage a person'swellness. So my visits would include,
have you kept up with yourpreventative medicine? Have you had
(19:55):
your mammogram? When's thelast time you had your hemoglobin
A1C check for your diabetes?As a nurse practitioner, that would
be included in an orthopedicvisit? Not necessarily so if you're
seeing just the surgeon.However, I have to give credit to
one of my former employees.Employers Kaiser Permanente has made
(20:15):
a huge effort to includeprevention care in all of their patient
visits. However, time doesn'talways allow it, and NPs generally
will fit it in a little easierthan a physician will.
I love it. So tell us aboutmore about your book. When is it
coming out? And when can. Howcan People find it, buy it.
(20:39):
It's due out the last week ofSeptember, and I hope to have it
on Amazon, a print version andan ebook version. And the Spanish
translation just gotcompleted. I'm reviewing that with
somebody who can read Spanishright now, and I hope to have that
up by the end of the year. Andalso, if you want to just keep track
on my website,www.debrapalmer.com, i will have
(21:04):
updates on my website for howyou can pre order it.
That's so exciting. And what'snext for you? Is there another book
in the works or is this thelast one?
No. In my heart, after writingthis book, I realized my Native American
ancestry meant a lot to me. Somy next book will be historical fiction
(21:28):
based on Lakota and Ojibwe,Native American ancestors in my family
lineage.
Oh, that's so neat. We don'thave enough books about that to kind
of pour into that.
And it bridges also the furtrading profession, the voyagers,
because they were. Many ofthem were married to French fur traders
(21:52):
in the 1600s and 1700s.
So what one lesson do you hopereaders get from your book?
Never give up hope. Hope iswhat anchors all of our purposes.
And without hope, you don'thave a meaning, a reason to get up
(22:13):
the next day. And it's whatkeeps us going.
I love it. If you werespeaking to someone who was about
to enter your field and juststarting out today, what advice do
you have for them?
Well, it kind of goes back towhat I said earlier about really
understanding your patientstoday and employing that platinum
(22:37):
rule more so than the goldenrule. But aside from that, I would
say really take the time.Invest in understanding who you are,
what you believe, and whatyour values are, what drives you,
and where do you get yourstrength from. If you're not feeling
well and strong, it's hard tobe that person your patient needs
(22:59):
you to be.
Yeah, the caregiver needs totake care of the caregiver.
Yeah. Yeah.
So in season six of thepodcast, we have something new. We
have the guest gets to pick asurprise question you did not get
ahead of time. So pick anumber between one and four for your
surprise question.
Three.
Three. All right. Oh. Sowhat's something that most people
(23:24):
would never guess about?
Well, I traveled to Guatemalathree times and ran a medical mission.
Wow. And how was that?
It was the first time, it wasconfusing. I wasn't the leader. The
(23:46):
second time, I took charge andI recruited the team and I loved
it. I got a lot of doctors andnurses from where I was working at
the time and throughout theUnited Methodist Church, which was
helping to support thisprogram. And what I learned is happiness
does not depend on wealth andthings. Because these clients that
(24:09):
I saw very by our standards,poor, impoverished, walked miles
in bare feet, dragging sixkids behind them to come to a clinic
to see us. And while theywaited patiently for their turn,
they joyfully played withtheir children and laughed and hugged
and it was a sight to behold.And I was so glad I was able to bring
(24:32):
my teenage children one ofthem each time I went. And that is
just that happiness issomething we make from inside of
us. It's not something thatcomes from outside of us.
Yeah, that's so true. Anddoing something for somebody else
is so rewarding when you canactually pour your pour into someone
else's life besides your own.
(24:53):
Yeah, that too.
So I love to ask my guest thisother question. What do you want
your legacy to be?
I want my legacy to be that Iwas an encourager of people to grow
in their health and well beingas well as their spiritual well being
and that I modeled behaviorsthat helped and I provided support
(25:17):
when I was able to. That is myhope and dream as a legacy.
And that's very commendablebecause that is such a powerful legacy
to leave behind. People saythat about you as you're no longer
with us.
Well, I had people do that for me.
Yeah.
And you mentioned earlier howimportant it is to give back or pay
it forward, so to speak. Yeah, yeah.
(25:39):
So, Deborah, I'm curious,where can people find your book when
it comes out and how can itconnect with you best on social media?
So I am revamping Facebook andI'm just learning how to use that.
But you can go to my website,www.deborahpalmer.com and I will
have it online. Amazon, KD,Kindle Direct, and I'm hoping for
(26:04):
bookstores. I'm going to haveit distributed through ingramsparks
as well. Keep asking for itstarting the end of September and
your local bookstore will bemore likely to order it.
There you go. I know. I'mdoing that myself now with my own
book. So we're trying to getinto people's hands.
It's a process.
It is. No one knows writing isjust one piece of it now. Promoting
(26:26):
it's the other, other bighurdle you have to do.
Are you self publishing, Kevin?
No, I didn't. It's actuallypublished through a WIPF press and
so it's out on Amazon andBarnes and Noble. So yeah, it's out
of several that helps a lot.
But I've been told evenpublishers expect you to do a lot
(26:47):
of the marketing on your own.
They do. I just had to do aone page presser and now I'm trying
to get on other podcastsmyself to talk about the book.
So, yes, check out NationalPublicity Summit.
Yes, that's where we met. Good place.
Yes, it is.
So, as we wrap up this greatconversation, what would you want
(27:09):
to leave with the audience askind of a takeaway from our conversation
today?
Be courageous. Don't let feardrive you. I have embraced every
interview, every invitation. Igot into podcast interviews so far.
You're my third one. And Ithink if I had let my fear guide
(27:32):
me, I wouldn't be doing this.And I have enjoyed it way more than
I ever thought I would. Sotake risks. Be courageous. Don't
let fear be the driving forcein your life.
Well, you were an amazingguest and thank you for coming on
and sharing with us your heartand your story. And may your book
be a rousing success thatinspires other people to wellness
(27:52):
and not just physical, butmental and spiritual as well.
You success with your book aswell. You're a great host. Thank
you for having me.
Well, thank you do Deborah.Have a blessed day.
As soon as I get my Facebookthing figured out, I will post this
on my other.
Great. We'll appreciate that.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you.
Have a great day.
(28:13):
You too.
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