Adam Keen - On Yoga & the Quest for Meaning - Native Yoga Toddcast

Episode Transcript
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Todd McLaughlin (00:33):
Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy
you are here. My goal with thischannel is to bring
inspirational speakers to themic in the field of yoga,
massage bodywork and beyond,follow us native yoga, and check
us out at nativeyogacenter.com.
All right, let's begin

Adam Keen (00:57):
Fine, lovely to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast,thank you for listening. Today,
I have the pleasure and theprivilege of bringing Adam Keen
on to the podcast, I reallyrecommend that you go to his
website, keenonyoga.com. He hasa podcast himself called Keen On

(01:18):
Yoga. Also a YouTube channel andInstagram. So you can find him
on multiple channels. I gain alot of inspiration from Adam's
work. I read every single postthat he writes on Instagram,
he's really prolific and givesyou plenty of content. He writes

(01:40):
about really deep, thoughtfuland engaging Ideas. I've really
learned a lot from the mediathat he puts out. I reached out
to him and he was graciousenough to join me here on the
podcast. And for that, I'mreally thankful. That is what is

(02:02):
really incredible about the yogacommunity. Our ability to be
open to share with each other.
To not be nervous aboutinteracting and communicating
with someone that we don't knowfrom the "Man in the Moon or the
Woman in the Moon." That'ssomething that I find an

(02:23):
incredible amount of inspirationfrom personally, in my own yoga
practice. I do want to mentionthat Adam is going to be holding
a yoga conference, where he'llhave Eddie Stern, and some other
well known yoga and ashtangayoga teachers and practitioners

(02:44):
on this channel, speaking aboutreally important issues like
mental health, and eating anddiet, and just all these things
that we are facing in our ownexperience of our practice and
how to navigate and what is ahealthy and conducive way to

(03:06):
continue to practice and sharewith others. So again, I'm so
thankful you are here and foryour support. And I hope you
enjoy this episode as much as Idid. This is a true honor and
pleasure. All right, let's goahead and get started. I'm so

(03:27):
happy to have Adam Kean heretoday. Adam, how are you?
It's really always a pleasure tobe the guest rather than the
interviewee. And I've alwayssaid to people that try is

(03:48):
actually easier to be a guestthan it is to be an interviewee
to be the interviewer I find soyeah, you know, people say this
or that about oh, you know, themy interviewing style, I always
say, well, I'll set you up withthe podcast next time you ever
go. Because it's really noteasy, you know, to get that to
get that balance, right. AndI've done over 100 on the Keen

(04:11):
on Yoga podcast. Yeah, maybe 150interviews now, and I'm still
still working at it.

Oh, definitely.
Well, on that note, you haveyour own podcast Keen On Yoga.
I'm curious, who are yourinspirations if you are to
listen to another interview? Orwho have you gained a lot of
inspiration and theirinterviewing style?

Unknown (04:39):
Yeah. It's a good question. Really. I like it,
guys. He put me on the spot. Imean, I only listened to the
older ones. I mean, obviously,you know, we've got a shout out
to Peg Mulqueen at Ashtanga YogaDispatch. She has been out there
for several years now, soachievers, really the four
runner in this. So a lot of youknow a lot of inspiration from

(05:02):
from peg obviously, a lot ofrespect to peg for doing and you
know, starting what she did soearly and getting it out there
with all those teachers soearly. So I listened to that
over the years from when shestarted. You know, I listened to
harmony and Russell's podcast Ifind Russell hilarious. You know
Russell's a very funny guy and afriend and I've had him on the

(05:26):
podcast, I find it very funny.
Yeah, I know, bits and bobs.
Really, you know, I looked atstuff, you know, a different
interviews on YouTube. I mean,you know, Russell Brand is not
bad. Sometimes. he irritates me.
He has some Yeah, some quirksthat are reasonable. Yeah. Is
that right?

That is all right. Good answer. I was just
curious. Sometimes I'll, I thinkif I want to learn something
here, let me let me listen tosome of the greats. And so I was
curious if there's some peoplethat that inspire you. I hear
you that. Yeah.

Unknown (05:56):
Yeah. I mean, the thing is with I mean, I don't want to
derail this to talk aboutpodcasts, and the kind of ins
and outs of being aninterviewer, you know, but um,
it is really hard thing. And younever know how hard it is until
you actually do it, you know,because you want to try and get
out of the way. And thedifficulty is, if you've got
something to say, like me, youended up getting too much in the
way you know, and so people Iadmire are able to ask the

(06:19):
questions and somehow get out ofthe way enough that because when
you come in tune into someone Iknow as well as anyone else, you
don't want to hear theinterviewer. You want to hear
the guest. Nevertheless, I tendto still speak too much in the
podcast, and I always beratemyself for this afterwards, I
just wish I'd shut up more, youknow. And so I suppose the
people I respect the people thathave managed to kind of corral

(06:40):
interview and conduct it in sucha manner that you don't they,
they've guided it, but they'relike a great waiter, you know,
seamlessly at the table. They'renever willing at the table, and
you don't want them there. Butthey're always on hand when you
need them. I mean, you're anEnglish one people probably
don't know, maybe do Do youknow, Jonathan Ross? I don't.
He's a famous. Yeah, he's afamous English interviewer.

(07:02):
He's, he's been around manyyears, and he's quite good in
terms of giving people space.
And these are on the BBC was ontelevision. Nice. Nice. Yeah. So
yeah, that's cool. You go, oh,

I appreciate that. And then, um, when did you
start practicing yoga?

Unknown (07:17):
Yeah, straight into that one. When did I start
practicing it in 1999, I think Istarted I was at university. And
I've told this story many times,but I'll tell him, the the
obvious backdrop of how Istarted is that I was depressed,
I was studying philosophy, asmost students of philosophy are.

(07:38):
Probably, I don't know, whatcomes first the chicken, you
know, like, whether thepropensity is there with a
philosophy does it but what endsup you know, often then in the,
you know, in how do you call it,they call it a counselor, or
the, the area where the, youknow, the therapy area of the
university. So I was in therapy.
And then the teacher said, thetherapist said, Well, you know,

(08:00):
you and everyone else inphilosophy is here as well. So,
I find that kind of funny, but Ialso found that kind of
concerning that, you know, thepeople that come into
philosophy, obviously, or, like,Thor's the people that were had
questions about life, you know,and we're using the vehicle of
lucid thinking, you know,rational thinking, to work those
out, and it didn't work out. Andthat was shocked me. Because,

(08:21):
you know, as an 18 year old, Iwas 18, when I went to uni, you
know, I thought it would workout, I really thought that you
could think your way out of yourproblems in life, you know. And
what I realized is that youcouldn't do that. And so, so I
started, you know, I thought Iwas going to be tai chi, and
that conflicted with a night atuni, which is a good drinking
night that I didn't do the taichi. And there was a yoga class

(08:42):
and different night, there was,you know, it was a free night,
you know, non drinking. So Ithought I'd gone on to that, but
there's something in maybe Iintuitively thought there's
something in the body, right? Ifit can't be done through the
mind, it must be something inthe energy of the body, that's
throwing up these negativethought patterns that I'm
suffering from, you know, thatcould maybe be changed, like a,
you know, rewiring a, you know,electrical thing or, you know,

(09:07):
there's, you know,reconditioning a car engine or
something, there's somethingwrong with the engine, you know,
you know, that's making thesethoughts happen, rather than the
other way around, thinking, youknow, like, if you could think
more clearly, you know, thenthen everything would be okay.
So, so yeah, I stumbled intoyoga classes. Most people do. It
was a hatha yoga class. It wasslow, but it was challenging at

(09:27):
the time, I was not really ingood shapers. You know, as
you're not when you're, youknow, that that period of time
when you're kind of late teensand early, you generally kind of
suddenly fall off the bandwagon.
You know, you know, when you'rea bit younger, I was into
football, I was into martialarts, certain age, you kind of
you just let it go. I think whenwomen get involved early, we're

(09:47):
not really not that it's theirfault, but they come on the
scene and then that encouragesbad behavior on your part and
more drinking and reducing thenmaybe, you know, maybe you
should do so. So that was mylife at that time. Outside
philosophy, and I was not ingood shape. And I found it
incredibly challenging the evenhappier class, I remember doing
Bo Dhanurasana. And finding thatwas very, very painful. Same

(10:11):
with past few months and Arsenalforward fold also incredibly
credibly, almost unbearablypainful. Yes. So I wasn't
flexible, and I wasn't flexibleat all. It just kind of struck
me that this after the firstclass was something that I had
to do, just for my own mentalhealth, it felt like it was
definitely the right thing todo, in terms of responsible

(10:33):
thing to do, even for myself andfor to take care of myself, you
know, because at that time, Iwas also prescribed
antidepressants, I was on them,you know, and I'm not gonna say
anything about medication, youknow, there's a whole lot of
debate out there aboutmedication. So I felt though
that I didn't want to be on itforever, I felt that, you know,
it wasn't something I wanted, ormaybe I felt I could maybe do

(10:55):
without them. But I couldn'tmaybe just come off it just like
that. So that was a reallyanother really fundamental
reason to get to their yogaclass and try and do something
for myself, rather than justjust, you know, go to the
therapy and get theprescription. And, you know,
then it felt ratherdisempowered. I felt like it was
I was able to, I felt like I wasout of control. And the yoga,

(11:16):
yoga made me think, basically,on a basic fundamental level
that I was doing something I'mback in control, taking control
of the situation, you know, butthen on my plan to, uh, to get
into Ashtanga Yoga or, or becomegood at it in inverted commas,
you know, the asanas, that kindof happened, just because I had
to be dedicated for the mentalhealth reasons to be quite

(11:36):
honest with you. Yeah, I did itevery day, from 15 minutes a
day, and expanded to 30 minutesa day. And then I expanded it a
bit longer. And then, after acouple of years that it was
generally at that time, youknow, this is the late 90s. So
there was a, you know, there's,it was kind of what was called
with a British wheel of yoga,which was the generally the
domain of like, a certain middleaged lady, you know, at this

(11:58):
time, you know, not notnecessarily the case now, but at
the time, it was, like an olderlady who was made the mainstay
of these classes, and theybasically kicked me out in the
end, and it's not really foryou, young guy, I was 1920 as a
bit feisty, you know, like, Iwas pushing, you know, then I've
got to be quite into the assetsas well. And they've got, you

(12:19):
know, like, reasonablyaccomplished at them. And they
just said, you know, like, youshould try something else a bit
more challenging, you know, sothey didn't kick me out, like

in any court or something like they thought you
should get into football or

Unknown (12:31):
a different type of yoga, okay. But at this time,
they still knew like, what youknow, what other types of yoga
are out there? You know, therewas like Vinyasa or anything
like that, you know, it was onlylike you had two choices. Hatha
Yoga, this is entry one, youknow, yeah, the younger yoga the
pedantic one, you know, peoplethat were hatha yoga students,
but like a bit of pendant lightto be there like to be specific.

(12:53):
And you know, then what took itmore seriously, maybe, I don't
know. And then you had theAshtanga people who were seen
really as the outcasts. So Ithink they recommended me yoga
Yanga yoga, more in line withthe happy yoga now Ashtanga was
seen as at that time even it hadthat kind of rappers are this is
not really yoga. It's too muchjumping around to athletics.
Yes, I kind of got into that,you know, because someone kind

(13:16):
of latched on my girlfriend atthe time because she was doing
it a bit, you know, when I wasdoing Yanga yoga. And I really
believed in yoga yoga, but Istarted to get annoyed about
getting all the props andsetting them up and it took so
long. It was a breath wet, butit was the breathing in there.
You know people say oh, you knowa certain point they teach you
the breathing and you have to bemore advanced June but anyway, I
got you know, a little bit I waslooking also outside that box as

(13:39):
well. And she went to theAshtanga class and then she goes
come along one night and I wasno I love it. I don't want to do
the jumping I'm doing younger,like it's slow you know you stay
in the postures for a long time.
And you know, I don't believethat's yoga and then I went to
it and I just there's a funnystory because I didn't do any of
the vinyasas when I refused tojump back or jump through I
would just hold the posture so

right off the bat you're pretty rebellious.
Like right yeah.

Unknown (14:07):
Yeah, I don't like it and myself, you know, but I've
always been kind of stubbornminded. So yes, I know what I'm
doing is a bit too much likethat. I know what I'm doing I
don't like this jumping. There'snot really Yoga. But you know,
you know what I mean? I also Ican also think again that I
think that's my saving grace andafter a week or so, she was

(14:27):
going again she stopped becauseI backside her but she was going
again whilst he was going I saidI have another go at it because
you know it kind of piques my insomething piqued my interest in
IT. I think because at the time,the guys looked there, they
looked like they were reallyquite athletic. And I thought,
well, if you want to learnsomething physical, you want to
learn it from the people thatlook really well toned and

(14:49):
physical. Like they know whatthey're doing with their body
and the younger people not somuch. You know. These guys are
quite impressive. There's a 1920year old guy to see another guy
toned in do handstands and stufflike that lift themselves up
into a handstand. I would quitefirst of all, I was dismissive
like, oh, you know, it's notreally yoga and then it piques

(15:09):
my interest. And I. So I wentback. And after a few weeks, I
was quite hooked to be honest.
Yeah, yeah, I already had tosell practice everyday. So it
just was changed. I just changedone thing for the other. You
know, it was Kathy yoga, andthen you just got, I just
changed it to ash Tanglin. Youknow,

that's, that's cool. Adam, one thing that that
made me think of is recently Ihad somebody come in for a
class, and I said, She, It was aslower, gentler class. And she's
like, Oh, that was a little bit.
You know, I wish I was a littlebit faster. And I said, Oh,
well, you know, we offerAshtanga classes led classes.
She was oh, no, no, that's stillthat's still holding the poses

(15:46):
for too long. And it always kindof, yeah, yeah. And it cracks me
up that sometimes I'll hearpeople say, like a strongest to
slow. And I'm like, Well, what,right?

Unknown (15:58):
Well, how fast can you be?

I think there's a little bit of a trend in the
vinyasa world, at least aroundhere. I don't know if it's
elsewhere, but where you don'thold anything for longer than an
inhaler. And exhale. And I don'tthink it's actually I don't
think there's an emphasis onactually coordinating the
inhaler, the exhale with them,but I think it's just boom,
boom, boom, this one that oneand yeah,

Unknown (16:21):
it cracked. You're right. That precedent has been
set by vinyasa. Yeah.

I always thought it was kind of
interesting to because to me,your Stanga was always like a
really dynamic, challenging,like intense work. Like you
said, the Iyengar style thatwe're kind of saying, well,
that's not really yoga, becauseit's too fast. So to have
someone come and say, like, Oh,it's just too slow. I just
wonder how fast could it get?
You know, like,

Unknown (16:44):
move, doesn't it? You know, like, that was the fastest
one. And then yeah, it's movedon. I mean, yeah, like, then we
extrapolate to the future. Imean, you know, what's gonna
happen? I mean, it's like, youhave to take some kind of
amphetamine before you go. Tomake, you know, to up the ante
in the in vinyasa. Now, I did aVinyasa class once because I was

(17:05):
I kind of just for a bit of funto be quite honest. There was a
studio and they wereauditioning, and I've never done
a yoga audition ever. And

auditioned to teach or did

Unknown (17:16):
she okay to teach?
Exactly, yeah, yeah. And theyhad this audition, but the thing
was, you had to do everyone'sclasses like, so there's like 20
teachers that are Roman, and Ididn't need to do this class for
them. And I never really doneclasses for other students, I
just found the maestro practiceon my own led classes. But at a
certain point, you know, like,you know, I've done it for a
long time, my curiosity ispiqued about other things, you

(17:38):
know, like, just generally othermodes of teaching and teaching
in other studios. I didn't knowlike, some people close down.
And for me, it was the opposite.
At a certain point, I kind ofspread out again, you know,
after kind of tunneling in on mysore and how to do my so I went
the other way, for reasons thatwe can discuss anyway. And I
found myself in this audition,and you had to do everyone's

(17:59):
class. So there was vinyasateachers there, there was
teachers doing other thingsthere. And everyone got a five
minute slot. And so I did aVinyasa class one, so a few of
them. In fact, when the teachertaught, there's like five or six
teachers teaching their fiveminute vinyasa class, it was
insane. It was it was utterlyinsane. I mean, I know people
love the style. But I found itwas like a potential car crash

(18:20):
you're going through, there's nolike, I was flailing around with
wild things and turning over andthis and that. And before you
can try and look at the teacher,there's a new posture that's
there, and you're trying to getthe last one. And there's a new
one going on. It's madness. Imean, actually, we say in
English pissing myself oflaughter, you know, because it
was hilarious. But yeah, I mean,it's, you know, in terms of any

(18:44):
kind of potential alien idea ofyoga, for the sake of stability
or concentration? No, itprobably, probably is at that,
you know, I imagine if you getquite good at the thing, perhaps
it flows and more embodied stateof, of being in your body very
dynamically in your body, butdoesn't have much to do with the
the original kind of auspices ofyoga really, as far as I can

(19:06):
see,

I hear ya, I hear it. Can you tell me Adam,
what your experience withpracticing in Mysore is?

Unknown (19:12):
Yeah, no, I loved it.
And, you know, not a bad word tosay but it really and teachers
used to say to me, the oldteachers, oh, you should,
shouldn't go because it's notthe same as when we went, you
know, we went and there's twopeople in the room and now
you're gonna go to go club.
There's like 4050 And you know,Toby Joyce's old and he won't
help you. And, you know, and Iwent anyway, even though these
teachers are respected, youknow, Teresa, my wife and I ran

(19:35):
purple Valley yoga for for anumber of years in India. So we
had all these all teacherspassing through them so I can
pick their brains, you know, soit's kind of quite well up on
different teachers, perspectiveson Mysore and now you know, a
lot of them would say, it's notthe same you know, like, why,
why go now, you know, and, andit did, and I always recommend
people to go now even when it'schanged again, and it's this

(19:56):
huge hanger, I still say go youhave

Oh, Adam, one second. Adam, one second. I

Unknown (20:07):
was there, which you never really get the quite the
feel even if you're doing but,you know, when we used to do
batavi Joyce on tour or youknow, shroud used to come and do
these tours to London wasn't thesame, you know, and as soon as
you get to India, somethingdifferent happens there. And I'm
not really you know, I try notto veer away from hocus pocus
or, or things I can't explain.
But there is something a bitdifferent about that about it

(20:28):
there. And, and so I'm pleased Iwent. But you know, I think
there's a time and place Iwouldn't you know, the same. I
feel I don't need to go forever.
And if asked whether I'd go backnow I'd say I won't rule it out.
But I've no plans to go backcurrent.

Yeah, yeah, I hear it and you're in Bali. Now.
Can you tell me what yourexperiences living in Indonesia?
Do you love it?

Unknown (20:54):
Oh, it's alright. It's, it's, it makes a change. I like
being warm. And I can never Idon't like being cold. So I like
it on that, on that front, thatyou're always warm. Even though
we're living that we always asilly thing to enjoy about our
country. But you know, and theculture is nice. You know, it's
very soft. Balinese culture isvery, very gentle and very, very

(21:18):
sweet. Yeah, I mean, do I loveit? I know, it's, it doesn't
touch you in the same way thatIndia always touch touch me to
be honest, you know, going backto that point. And when you
arrive in India, there's acertain context around your
practice and the context aroundthe yoga. And something in it,
you know, which so many peoplefind just grabs them
straightaway. And although Ienjoy it here, and I'm very

(21:41):
privileged to be able to be hereand work from here, it's, you
know, doesn't grab me it doesn'ttouch me in the same way that
India with digital. Yeah.

Nice. Nice. How long did you spend in Goa?

Unknown (21:55):
We were there for a cup of my wife ran it for three
years, I joined for a couple ofyears I was that's where I met,
I was cook, I cook in London,and I supported my yoga through
cooking. So nice as I was abudding teacher. And that time,
you know, in the early 2000s, itwasn't like that the career of a
yoga teacher was kind of clearcut, it was like, Well, you

(22:17):
might make some money out of it.
But it wasn't really like youcould support yourself. So most
of us had other jobs, you know,and I taught myself how to cook
basically, I was never going tobe a philosopher, you know, it
was got disillusioned withacademia. Yeah. So I quit it,
you know, after three years ofmy degree, and I pay myself
basically from pot wash from,you know, washing dishes to

(22:38):
running kitchens, you know, justout of an interest in food
really nice. I've not really hadmuch of a background in food
when I was growing up. So assoon as I kind of got a bit
older and could go out and cookfor myself and experience
different things, I was quiteintrigued about all different
foods and how to cook them, youknow, like I left home really
not being a No, I didn't reallyknow how to boil an egg or

(23:01):
anything. So So you know, likethe possibility of like,
learning how to feed yourselfwas first of all fundamental.
And I started cooking forfriends at university and stuff.
And then somebody wasinterested, I was interested,
you know, and then developed itand developed it. And so when I
left, that was the thing Ithought, Yeah, sort of fancy
doing going to the kitchens andworking. It seemed honest, it
seems practical in a way thatphilosophy wasn't, it seemed

(23:24):
like a nice thing to do to cookfor other people. And it's
flexible, you know, you haddifferent hours. And you know,
it was dynamic, and you had akind of gang in the kitchen. I
liked that, you know, the kindof vibe and the excitement?
Yeah, I mean, it lends itself ina way with Ashtanga Yoga, you
know, that kind of exciting andyou know, and yes, dynamic.
Physical, very physical. Yes.

(23:51):
You know, when you're whenyou're in your early 20s, you
know, I could practice for acouple hours and go in the
kitchen and cook for 10 hours,you know, but at a certain
point, I started to see thatthat I would maybe transition
out of that because you didn'thave any energy going on in the
long term. I didn't have theenergy for both. But anyways,
long story short, I did that inLondon. And then I decided I'd
try and transition to do otherthings I want to go to Mysore

(24:13):
was a bit scared of India. So Ithought if I gotta go first and
do cooking on this yoga retreat,yeah, there as in the position
of the cook for a while. It'd belike a soft landing in India, I
find my feet to be like that,you know. So that's, that's what
I did. But I never really gotpast that because I met my wife.
And then we started running ittogether for a couple of years.

(24:35):
We did go to Mysore. And we hopeshe came to go or we hosted in
there as well. And, you know, itwas a really special time and
experience

are there.
That's amazing. I had to gobefore it's pretty amazing
there. Did you so your firstintro to India was going up and
then you start exploring thatother part? Yeah, gotcha. Can
you give me a little bit of yourtake your take on like us
Sometimes I hear people say thatgo was the liberated state of
India that you know, thing morethings can fly and go than other

(25:05):
parts in terms of, you know,you'll walk down to the beach
and people will be in bikinisand doing the Western thing, and
you'll have maybe some Indianshanging out, gawking, you know,
like, what's going on here. And,yeah, can you give me your

Unknown (25:21):
more like that? It's like, Well, I think there's a
little bit of kind of vibe aboutgo with the end
of my last year. Yep. Sorry.
Yeah, sorry.
Yeah, I was gonna say, I thinkwith Indian communities, I think
that go there. I think there isa bit of a vibe of what goes on
in Ghana stays in Ghana, youknow, there's a little bit of,

(25:41):
you know, you can Las Vegas.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. You cankind of chill out of it, you
know, and it's not back home,where there's, the community
might be a bit more stringent.
And, you know, and obviously,there's all these Westerners
that have, you know, kind ofposthumously, I don't know what
the scene is less question now.
But obviously, in the 60s 70s,there was a huge hippie vibe
down in Goa. So, you know,there's still of that, that kind

(26:02):
of vibe, which is there. Yeah,maybe the place lends itself to
it, the kind of geography thatthe, you know, the kind of vibe
there. Yes, it's a lovely state,very different to Mysore,
obviously, a lot more fun,because you've got the beach and
you know, you can kind of goaround in the kind of palm
groves and the motorbike, andyou know, nice, so you're kind
of stuck in a town. Really?

(26:23):
Yeah, not not so fun, you know,kind of biding your time until
the next next morning where yougo practice again. So, you know,
in terms of, yeah, enjoyment,obviously, goal is way more fun.
And that's, yeah, but in termsof the yoga, I mean, obviously,
myself, yeah, there's a placethat I, you know, got fond of,
because we went there for formany years, that was in the end

(26:45):
what so many of us, you know,and people still do, obviously,
you know, you plan your year ora month around mice, or, you
know, you go, you do yourteaching, and then you take your
three months, and you go to mystore, and you get your kind of
teeth, you know, you get taughtand you get the top up, and then
you go back and teach and youknow, we did that for for a
number of years, you know, nice,nice until Yeah, I suddenly kind
of gets in the way and somethingchanges. Life. Yeah,

good point I saw yesterday, your, your posts
on Instagram are amazing. You doan incredible job, Adam, I look
forward to them. I don't knowhow you've gotten so good at
around. You're a great writer.
So clearly, you're taking a lotof time to compose these posts.
So first off, I don't see howyou have enough time to do what

(27:32):
you're doing in terms of howlong it would take me to try to
do it, you're doing so good jobthere. I think the subjects that
you're touching upon, areincredibly important. And you
always get me to think so yourphilosophy your love, for for
philosophy definitely comesthrough. So I feel like I
learned something every time. Ireally enjoy the fact that you

(27:55):
really cut in on the issues thatare not spoken about a lot, or
maybe are uncomfortable to speakabout or challenging to talk
about. Just yesterday, I sawthat you wrote sometimes we
mistake the finger for the moonand astanga. And I'm curious if
you can elaborate on what yourthinking around that or what you

(28:20):
mean by that.

Unknown (28:24):
Yeah, I mean, let's first say that, I think more
than anything, I mean, I stillhave the same wish for the
Socratic wish, let's say fortruth. Right. Like, you know,
Socrates was that was aquestion. He was an inquiry. He
was encouraging. You know, hewasn't saying he got anything,
but he was just encouragingother people to think out of the
box, you know, the young peopleof Athens, going around asking

(28:45):
difficult questions, I thinkjust encouraging them to follow
that their thinking through andsee if it worked for them or
not, you know, and see if itmade sense. And, you know, when
followed through or not. So ifyou follow through the asanas,
you know, it's like, well, whereare these details going to get
you the specific details gonnaget, you know, or if we follow
through the way that we stretchor we, you know, if you've
fallen through the way ofpulling out of yourself, for
example, if you follow that tothe nth degree, the rip your

(29:07):
shoulder out of your joints, isthat what? So is that
extrapolating out of that, isthat the idea that in progress
means more and more stretchingout of yourself? Until what
until you end up with a ligamentissue or a tendinitis because
you've overstretched? Right?
Right? So, you know, it's just,I guess, I have the same
frustration, as you know, like,kind of someone who loves

(29:27):
philosophy, would it justwanting us all to think together
and just be honest withourselves, you know, for the
sake of everyone else, you know,really because, because
dishonesty as we can see, likenot, it's not necessarily
mentor, it's not necessarily onpurpose, but it creates so many
difficult circumstances forpeople, right. So, we find, you
know, the teachers coming backfrom Mysore and they've had this

(29:50):
great experience but maybethey're not followed it through
enough and and kind ofcontextualize what it means for
the everyday person you know,And there's always details in
Mysore, which mean that you,you're on program, you know, you
belong to the club, you know,you point your toe here, you
know, a provisioner can ask, andI dare, dare you jump back
without looking up inhaling andexhaling, you know what I mean?

(30:11):
Like, you know, right, like,there's certain points, you
know, like, you know them thatyou have to do those ways. And
that shows that, you know, thescore in terms of the Mysore
tradition. Now, you know, that,you know, that's not the
ultimate method of yoga, theultimate method of yoga isn't
stylistically about whether youdo one thing or another, it's it
goes deeper than that, and thosedetails end up just, they end up

(30:31):
being taken just as one more wayto just belong, you know, and I
think we obviously have a fearof not belonging, and we have a
fear of going on our own andexploring on our own without the
backing up of, of an institutionor, you know, right. That's the
ultimate thing is the courage tostand alone and look alone,
rather than just one moreattempt to subscribing to the

(30:54):
status quo, right. Because, youknow, when I've done it, you
know, I was super, and I cansay, all this, because I did it,
you know, I went there. And I,without meaning to, to be quite
honest with you, but I wasalways a bit rogue, as you
identify from the, you know, Iwas always going to those
teachers who are a little bitmore put hands down here, do
that there, you know, but it'sactually my wife, who's more on

(31:14):
program, she'd got thisrelationship with SRAP, through
hosting him at Pebble Valley. Imet him in a more intimate
scenario, when he was teaching asmall group at Pebble Valley, we
struck up a, you know, apersonal relationship at that
time, because he was there forweeks, you know, without all the
students around him. And so Igot into this kind of Mysore
etiquette, you know, and thenyou go to Mysore, and all your

(31:36):
peers are there and you know,like, you know, then everyone's
kind of like, well, you know,you're doing pretty good there,
you know, is that ego comes in,you know, and yeah, so I, you
know, went down that rabbit holewith the details and with the
small details and taking thosedetails for ashtanga yoga but,
but we look really are what itis. It's, it's the same as the
tantric Hatha Yoga originallyyou find in data Tres, yoga,

(31:58):
shastra, whether you've got, youknow, Mahamudra Maha VEDA Maha
Bandha, you know, you've gotbreath, posture, and looking
place, you know, it's sorry,yeah, done this right. bunda
posture and distinct. So it'sthe same, you know, and those
are, that's the fundamentalengine of what you're doing is
the asset. And sometimes thesmall details that can help you

(32:20):
come from the outside in, but Ithink all too often those small
details are taken for the methoditself. But that, you know, and
then just as a way of belongingto that Ashtanga club, you know,
with what is encouraging, is ita subjective experience of
oneself in an embodied sense, ina more whole sense in a more
pleasurable sense than what wehad? You know, the bottom line,

(32:44):
you know, and, yeah,

do Do you still feel like you're in the club?

Unknown (32:54):
Well, I suppose, probably, if you ask Jirachi
probably say no, about I haven'tbeen kicked out. Yeah. So you
know, it's like, you know, Idon't seek to be honest, I don't
you know, as much as I writeabout it, I write about because
I haven't seen much of adiscrepancy to be honest between
now and like, I finally found ametaphor the other day, you say
I spend time in a post, and Ido, but I would do anyway,

(33:15):
because I was always frustratedphilosopher ever since I kind of
quit philosophy for cooking. Youknow, I was always still
thinking and questioning, youknow, and that was me from a
kid, you know, my mom used tosay, oh, so we have some quiet
time me now, you know, because Ialways ask the question, she
always say, I used to ask why.
Everything was why, you know,they're still what I'm doing
now. Yeah, just asking why. AndI don't have the conclusions.

(33:38):
But I just want us all as muchas possible, to ask the
questions for ourselves. BecauseI think in that manner, is how
we get to be more open, moresharing, and more and more
caring people. They're kind ofopening up the questions and
tolerating, as I found outrecently trying to tolerate and,
and be respectful to each other.

(34:00):
And, you know, just, yeah, justjust allow other people's
opinions were like, kind ofjumping, jumping on closing down
discourse, because I thinkthat's a dangerous thing as
well, you know, yeah. So comingback to the original point,
sorry, I see myself as nothaving a really any problem with
the, the Mysore traditionalaspects of it. And what I'm

(34:22):
saying now, I mean, it's alanguage the metaphor I was I
was meaning to mention is thatyou've got a language you know,
the language right, and then ata certain point, you know, when
to break the language, but firstof all for most people, yeah, I
mean, getting them up to speedwith the grammar is more
sensible than just getting theminto recite to you random,
random phrases, and then notthey don't know what's behind

(34:43):
the phrase, right? You know,like, they might know how to
order a coffee, you know, theydon't know the verb by want and
how to say you want to he wantsto we want you know, like blah,
blah, blah, right. So, thestructure is good, you know,
know the structure, learn thelanguage, learn the conventions,
and then know how to use it ornot and how you want to use it
and when you want to use You'renot even going to Mysore I'm not
going to start busting out arethe things that things that

(35:03):
aren't my sort of start right. iMy main teacher was Mark Darby
in the end structurallyspeaking, you know, in terms of
practical acid instruction,Darby is for me, you cynical,
none of instruction, he'swonderful. And forever grateful
for for his instruction, herecommends holding the foot, you
hold the foot and you pullacross, right? I really think
that's very, very useful as aninstructor, would I do it in my

(35:26):
story? The rubber strap? No, Iwouldn't do that. Because, I
mean, he's class, I'm doing itthe way that with the wrist and
the way that everyone's doingit. I mean, when I'm outside the
class, then I use that languagein a different way, just like in
the old fashioned sense, youknow, not now, because
everything's so casual thesedays, but used to go into a
bank, you know, you need to gointo the bank, and you're, you
have a certain language, and ifwe speak, you know, respectful

(35:49):
respectfully to the bankmanager, or the cashier, you
know, what I mean? Because youare, in a sense, where you've
got to be respectful, right, youknow, and then when you're out
in the street, you change yourlanguage, and you know, like,
accordingly, yes, the same, Ithink without, without there
being any contradiction.

Yeah. Do you when you're working with a new
student? I'm gathering, you'reworking with the structure of
primary series? Are you tryingto convey the institution with
this questioning aspect? At thesame time? Are you trying to
build a balance of

Unknown (36:22):
a coup? That's a great question. Yes, I'm always trying
to empower the students, right.
And that's what I felt was solacking in some of the teachers
who, as much as I love them, andmany of the old teachers that I
worked with, I felt that therewasn't enough empowerment of the
student necessarily, you know,and it was big for me, I always
felt like what we ultimatelywant is to the student to come

(36:45):
into their own power and decidefor themselves, right, I mean,
the courage to stand alone, theidea of cavallier I like a lot,
you know, because that is it inlife, you know, we always want
to shelter behind other people'sinstructions, and, you know, you
told me what to do. And for acertain while, you know, that's
not a bad idea, you know, um,there's got to be some hierarchy
of knowledge somewhere, youknow, to learn anything, but,

(37:06):
but at a certain point, thatalso becomes redundant. And one
wants to encourage the studentto go off and take some
autonomy, and face the fear anddoubt, and uncertainty of doing
that, you know, for them,because a lot of that comes in,
you know, and questioning, thencome visit, it's easy to go to
my store, right? You will getyou go to my store, you learn
the sequence in a way that istaught there, and you go back

(37:27):
and you practice it. Job done,you know, easy, no questions, no
questions. That's not reallyyoga. I mean, yoga is grappling
with these difficult questionsthat you know, about life, you
know, like, and I think theasthma practice should somehow
if it's going to be used, youknow, in a deeper way than just
a sloppy, weird gymnastics,there has to somewhat mirror or,

(37:49):
or prompt or prod, this kind ofquestioning for us, you know,
yes. So yeah, I mean, it's agreat question. And, yes, I
can't not be me, you know, and Ithink that was a real change
that was happening before thepandemic, and it came around
more during this this time,which I think was quite pivotal
for a lot of people in one wayor the other, you know, I came

(38:13):
more into just thinking, fuckit, you know, I'm sorry, I'm
just going to be myself. Acertain point, you know, like,
you can't be you know, like,It's too tiring to be a mini
clone of Sharan, you know,walking around in the skirt
towel. And, you know, like,counting in the Indian accent,
you know, like, which I again, Ikind of did that, you know,
because I was afraid, you know,because, because I wasn't
confident in my own teachings,you know, and I didn't want

(38:36):
anyone to point me out or, youknow, anyone that has impostor
syndrome, whatever job you do,you know, yeah, it was fulfill
your lacking, you know, and at acertain point, I just thought,
you know, what, I'm gonna be me.
And I'm gonna relate honestly,to the person in front of me as
me in terms of just wanting toshow them how they could use it
for themselves in their life,and encouraging support their
process. And that's the end ofthe story. You know, there's

(38:59):
some people it's relevant toteach them the classic ways,
especially if they're saying,I'm gonna go to Mysore, and I'm
gonna want to do this, and I'm,you know, I'm teaching already
and I'm maybe wanting to teachAshtanga Yoga, but maybe they're
not, you know, right. I'm gonnago to Mysore blah, blah, blah.
So you go, Okay, right, like,what teach you the nuts and
bolts of how to do the silverservice, right. Like, for other
people, they say relevant, thesilver service, right, they're

(39:21):
coming, you know, they're maybethey want to do 40 minutes a
day. And you know, and betterthis a bit of that, you know,
and teaching them that will justput them off or, or be
irrelevant or be inappropriatefor their daily life and what
they need, you know,

yes, yes. Great answer, you know, and one thing
that you inspire me with is thatyou are extremely, it seems to
be very honest about personalissues. Yeah. And that's not
easy. Well, to speak from my ownexperience. Like I feel like I
grapple with that in terms ofhow much to talk about and Where

(40:00):
to hold some sort of privacy?
How do you how do you navigatethat? Like, do you have any
exercises that you do before youwrite, say, a post? Like,

Unknown (40:10):
it should do? I should do? Do you know what I do? out
there? You know, I mean, like, Idid that the start, you know,
what I really found is that, nowI write something, right, this
is what I do, like I write,like, I've got, like, 10
different things I'm writing,you know, like, and I'll go
back, and I go back, and I goback on each one, you know, over

(40:31):
a period of days, you know,like, and they're all coming to
fruition, you know, becausethey're only, like, a few
paragraphs or whatever, eachtime, you know, but I do go back
and keep going over thoseparagraphs and taking things
out, I think, just, you know,yeah, not relevant or, or, you
know, might be, incidentally, ifI can catch them, you know,
like, I didn't want to putanyone's back up, you know, and

(40:52):
I want everyone else, you know,like, you want, you know, you
want people kind of, you know,like, on your side listening,
rather than, you know, beingbeing triggered and going away.
That's the last thing I want.
You know, like, as far as I wasso unhappy with a recent post I
wrote that got people's backsup, you know, that really wasn't
my intent. And I still thinkit's a relevant question. I
just, which one is that?

Which, which one was oh

Unknown (41:14):
my god, we want to go Oh, is about this Harvey Joyce
and sexuality stuff, you know,though, you know, it's always
gonna be a hot button. And maybeI got overconfident to think
that I could navigate it. But,you know, I got caught out, you
know, and I wasn't the skillfulof my writing as I could have
been, you know, when peoplepointed that out, you know, and
I take it on the chin and saythat, you know, things could

(41:35):
have been said that in a moreskillful manner, you know, but
the topic is still of interestto me, you know? And, and where
does the line story coming fromkind of rambling? Where does the
line get drawn? I mean, I goaround, and I look at the host
again, and again, I'm not takingout any personal content, I
think the only thing I would befrightened of people doing is
pointing out me, is inauthentic,that we're not as I've revealed

(42:00):
too much, or it's too personal.
There's no line there. To behonest. I'll say, I feel
empowered, perhaps I should behonestly want to have come to
the point with my yoga practice,where it's kind of just how far
can I just be utterly immediateto life, utterly transparent to
life, and another and anotherperson. And the more unhappy I

(42:21):
got, what I realized is the moreI was hiding behind teacher, my
teacher, leanness, my practicemy role and position, and
cutting back on back and back.
And then at a certain point, itall crumbled. And I wanted to
take those layers down and justcome so I was raped by the

(42:42):
person, and right by lifeitself. And good answer, as far
as I can. Yeah. And that's asfar as I can kind of get to, in
terms of a search for truthreally is like, how close can I
be just to utterly real andutterly nothing to hide? You
know? And more close, I get tothat, the more I kind of feel

(43:03):
that maybe that is a yeah, thatthere's something. There is
something in that.

Yeah, that's great advice. I love that. Thank
you. And when you mentionedearlier about the process of if
you think it all the waythrough, and if you're
practicing Asana, and you mademention that, you know, your, if
I take my body, my shoulder sofar that if I'm going to go all
the way through eventually it'sgoing to

Unknown (43:28):
separate or something's Yeah, exactly.

And in terms of, say, the philosophical
practice, and you kind of madementioned already, too, that,
you know, if I overthinksomething, and I keep
overthinking it, that maybe thatis the equivalent of not
necessarily the body snapping,but the mind snapping. Have you

(43:52):
have you had any close callswith mine snapping.

Unknown (44:02):
I think, also, to be honest, before the yoga, before
I started a more embodiedpractice that is stunning. I
mean, intense character, maybeyou can recognize that. So when
I got into philosophy, by thetime I got to university, I'd
read all the everything, all thebasic philosophy texts are out
there, you know, some modernphilosophy stuff, you know, that

(44:25):
I hadn't read, you know, there'sso much modern stuff out there,
but all the essential works ofphilosophy. You know, it's kind
of from the ancient Greeks toyou know, the existentialist,
you know, British empiricists.
I've done all the work, youknow, and yes, I think my mind
was close to snapping at thatpoint. And that's how really, I
felt frightened at that point.
And that's why I got into yogabecause of this anxiety welling

(44:47):
up that I just felt likesomething could snap in the
mind. You already did that, youknow, and then the end. The
funny thing is that then at theend, it came full circle it kind
of interestingly, I thinkbecause at some point I I think
the intensity of yoga reached acrescendo as well. And I think
that can also be encouraged by acertain methodology of practice

(45:08):
where, you know, you reach theAdvanced Series and you're doing
even without reaching advanced,even second series, there's lots
of leg behind the head, it doessomething weird, the energy of
the spine, you know, we put theleg behind the head isn't, you
know, I'm not gonna say it'sgonna raise Kundalini, it might
or might not, you know, butthere's something intense in the
nervous system, when you put theleg behind the head, you know,

(45:29):
and you're doing that day in dayout, especially in my sort of
being, you know, and having, youknow, that energy there, you
know, and I got up to a levelwhere I was the advanced B
series in my sort of, you know,so, you know, I don't know, I
think I said in another post, Ibelieve, batavi, Joyce said, you
know, this yoga can be crazymaking, you know, and they can
be, I think, withoutcontextualization, without a

(45:51):
context within which to frameMassena, and just going on ASP.
Net, ASP and ASP. Net andpushing and pushing. Yes, not
just me, but many people, itsent you a bit, it sends you a
bit crazy. Because the energy ofthe body, you know, it's just
too much. So in the long term, Ikind of think that I'm rest
reticent to, to revise that,that degree of of fastener for

(46:15):
any period of time for people,because, you know, if you look
at the traditional take on it,you know, they never, the
Indians never really originallydid it to that intensity ever,
you know, maybe a couple ofdays, and then, you know, it's
like, oh, you know, holiday? Oh,you know, they are, oh, you
know, 30 years old, too old.
Now, you know, like, you know,it's only the Westerners that

(46:35):
got hold of it in a stupid way,just kind of made it some
things, you can do some spiritof competition, intensity, and
upping the ante and taking itliterally, whereas it was never
taken. So literally, you know,and we never had anything else
around that. Right. Like, if youlook at the are everyone even
now you go to India, in themorning, the puja, you know, all
the day festival, you know, youknow, holiday in their life, you

(46:57):
know, there's so much there, andthen so then it's just a small
part of the whole, yeah, wedon't have anything else. So,
you know, when people like me,you are in need of something in
need of meaning in life. And Iwanted to use it like that,
like, so I got my teeth into it.
Like, I've got my teeth intophilosophy. And, yeah, by the
time I was 3738, pushing so muchinto those advanced series, all

(47:22):
this time lag behind the heddle,you know, yeah, I felt like my
mental health was jeopardizedonce again, just as much as it
had been when I was just in myhead. Yeah, just in my body now,
you know, because then, then itwas like, oh, you know, don't
we, you know, like, nothingneeds to be done, there's this
mentality and nothing else needsto be done. Don't think about
it, just do the asna. You know,like, that's enough. You know,

(47:44):
like, don't ya inquire aboutanything else in life, right,
just go home. And, you know,it's too one track, and it's too
out of balance, you know, andit's too physically demanding, I
think, for the long term period.
It's like, I don't think it wasever expected by batavi. Joyce,
originally, that people wouldactually go home and do that
shit every day. Like, you know,I mean, like, you go and do it
in my soul for a little bit withhere, but I don't expecting

(48:08):
people to go home and practiceto that level, like, you know,
for the rest of us. Right. Yeah.
And, and the older teachersdidn't do that, either. You
know, I know, that they, youknow, like, there's this
conversation that was recountedto me, like, you know, by a
teacher sitting around thetable, and they're done. There's
a bunch of old teachers, and youknow, and one of them says, you

(48:28):
know, like, I hadn't been therefor a while. It was practicing
in a garage at all the timegoes, you probably just was
teaching it in the US. And theysaid, do you do that every day?
You know, and that, you know,most of them they should know,
you know? Well, yes. When he'shere, yes. You know, when in my
saw, yes. But, you know, like,for most people, more bounce
perspective when leaving Mysore,I think is appropriate. And to

(48:52):
that end, you know, circlingback with my recent post, a more
balanced structure of teachingthe normal, everyday person,
right, who isn't a high schoolstudent, you know, because
otherwise they're strangled getsa bad rap, you know, it's when
we're going back to the ultimatething with this method. And it's
great because it has thislinking of mind to breath and

(49:14):
it's so easy to follow. And it'sso easy to do because you don't
have to think about it and itdoes produce a real rapid a
rapid experience of somethingdifferent. Yeah, but I think it
can be taught to litigious Leeto literally that it's off
putting and it's such atravesty. It's such a shame when
so many people who could haveenjoyed it in such a manner have

(49:35):
been taught in such a rigidmanner in a literal manner where
they just been off put likebeing told crazy shit, you know,
I've been told Oh, you're toofat to do marry Charlson, or D
or you can't you know, if youcan't bind in either bad Padma,
you've got to stop and lie down.
You know, that'd be craziness.
Like stuff like that, or evencan't stand up for a backbend,

(49:55):
no second series when thosegraduated back bends of this
first part of Second Series. Soobviously helpful for your
harder, urban Dhanurasana. Andif people made the effort again,
it's about inquiry. You know, ifthey made the effort, they would
realize that though the otherDhanurasana originally came at
the end of the second series,intermediate series, no, it

(50:15):
never was there at the end ofprimary. Yeah, yeah. This is a
more recent interview. So whatis tradition in the first place?
Again, I don't come withanswers, you know, and, but I
just want everyone to askoneself questions. And I think
the more you ask yourselfquestion, the great place to be,
is to be uncertain. Because thatmakes you humble. When you're
uncertain, right? You're humble.
And the best thing that happenedto me was this 3738 years old

(50:37):
period, when I got to that stageand the number of personal
circumstances came to fruitionwere suddenly this certainty
about, you know, almost kind ofcult cult like certainty about
Shanga being the great whitesavior, and you're at being kind
of godlike, really. And I hadit, you know, there's, like, the
best of them. There kind of camecrumbling down, you know, and I

(50:59):
had all these doubts anduncertainty, and I became a
human again, and became highlyrelatable. I became interested
in relating to someone. And thatbecame a more humble again. So
how old

are you? How old? Are you now? How

Unknown (51:14):
am I lose track, you know, as you get over 40? It's
like, you don't want to countanymore. I think I'm 43. When I
posted recently, my mom told meI was I was a year younger than
I thought I was happy to hearthat, you know, but no, I think
I actually am 43 now.

So then 3743, six years ago, six

Unknown (51:34):
years? The last?

What was the what do you think? What do you
think the catalyst was for thecrumbling the breaking down of
the wall? What was the Yeah,

Unknown (51:45):
because it was really a special time. And it was like, I
think for anyone listening,I think it's a good point to say
that what you think is the worstthing in the world. If you stick
with it cannot often be the bestthing that ever happened to you,
you know, I mean, so I thoughtthe worst thing the world, I'd
be pushing a, you know, more andmore nickel with shoulder in the

(52:07):
end shoulder completely went,couldn't do anything, you know,
in practice, perform throughinjury and modify, blah, blah,
this time, couldn't do anythingshoulder, so messed up, just
from almost one day to the nextcould not practice at all,
something seriously wrong withit, you know, never got an MRI,
Never, not really interested inthat, you know, not interested

(52:27):
in surgery, just you know, like,okay, can't practice, right,
just can't do anything, youknow, and then even coming back
to it can't do the same as Icould, catastrophic, but
somebody's based their life and,you know, your ability, as sad
as it was their ability and, youknow, in essence, so there was
that, we'd also started abusiness, a flailing Business,

(52:47):
Health would shock me, my wife,that was, you know, not, it
didn't go well. And we had toclose it. And we, you know, it
was a sad thing, we lost a bunchof money, and it was
heartbreaking. And then all andthen my wife got breast cancer,
you know, and so it's one thingto the next, the next my, my
grandmother, who I was steelybond with, she ended up kind of

(53:07):
going kind of senile, and we hadto put her in the home. And, you
know, there's all these thingsat the same time, and they
produced a meltdown, really sumit up. And I'd laugh now, but it
was it was a terrible situationand a very dark time. And if for
some reason I managed to turn itaround, not by by me, I think

(53:30):
but by grace of God or whateversomething was, you know,
happened that it was turned tothe goods, you know, I could
have gone and cried about it,you know, and all these things
and wallowed in it. And maybe Idid that for a while. And at the
end of that, I thought, well,what am I going to do with this?
Because something in meremembered why I started yoga in

(53:51):
the first place, which has to dowith not to do with what I could
do in the Asperger's. That kindof rabbit hole came later it was
to do with inquiry again, and todo with connecting to something
in myself and to do with thequestion of the other really,
like, what is this other personin the world? Right? Like, you
know, like, I remember I used togo see, you heard of Ramana

(54:11):
Maharishi, sorry, not Ramana youobviously heard of him. Ramesh
Bowser car. You heard of him? Ihave not? No, he was an advisor
guy from Mumbai, that andAdvaita guru has died a few
years ago, right? And used to dosatsangs in his in his flat, and
we went to see him. And Iremember him saying, you know,
the problem is that me I'm happywhen I'm at home having a coffee

(54:33):
or my own washing numbers. Butwhen I step out of my door, the
problem is other people. Right?
That's when I start to getirritated. And that's the
problem. Right? So how do youdeal with other people? This is
the way you're phrasing thatreally stuck with me. That's the
truth. Right? Like, you know, wealways think the problem isn't
us. But when we come intocontact with other people, then

(54:54):
the mess starts to happen. Youknow, like we start to doubt
ourselves and we start to getfrustrated with the other So it
was like, Well, that was thequestion as well as like, well,
what is this? Practice? Yes. Andteaching? Yes. In relation to
the question of the other, whathow do they relate to my life?
You know, and what is it that Igot to do? What is the meaning

(55:16):
of my life in relation to them?
You know, is it just, you know,is it just it is this, I mean,
the most basic level is, is it,you know, like, just teach this
yoga and like, you know, like,it's, they pay me and, you know,
like, right, like, you know,like, you know, like, what was
was my interest in them? Youknow, like, what am I doing?
What am I? What do I want forthem? You know, yeah, what I
like to contextualize this, soit's really meaningful for them,

(55:36):
right? So they, you know, theyjust get to put their leg behind
the head for a few years, likeme, and then have to let it go,
because they got, they got oldor they got injured or whatever,
the sooner or later, you know,it's like, you know, it doesn't
go on forever, right. So what,that's like the yoga philosophy,
right? Like, Krishna is notsaying, like, you know, like,
Oh, you do this now. And it'llbe good for a few years, you

(55:57):
know, you know, like, you'll getfamous, you know, kill all those
people in battle. You know, he'sasking for a serious solution, a
permanent solution. What is thepermanent solution?

Oh, man, that I hear. Yeah, I love I love
everything. You're saying. Thisis epic. I, I was I was driving
home yesterday and listening toa Neil Young song. And he had a
line that said, the same thingthat can keep you alive can kill
you in the end. And so as I wasdriving, I was like, Well, wait
a minute, but yoga, can yogakill me? And I was like, Well, I

(56:33):
feel like it keeps me alive.
Like, I feel like I put certainamount of emphasis on it that
this is gonna this is like, theeverything. And I associated
that with the leg behind thehead. Catching your heels the
Yeah. And it started to feellike it's killing me. You know,
like, so it's interesting. Idon't think yoga is gonna kill

(56:55):
me in the end. I think it'sgonna keep Yeah. Feed me. I
know. You're gonna be alive.
Yeah.

Unknown (57:04):
Yeah, yeah, clearly, well, you've traversed? Yeah,
sorry, is thatI started because of my
situation. With Theresa, mywife, and the general medicine.
And I started trying to researchother things, you know, like,
what's his, you know, like, thatled me down the rabbit hole of
homeopathy. So I trained it onand people are gonna hate this,

(57:24):
oh, he's talking about all thisstuff. And now he's telling me
is that only bad? Well, it makesthe, you know, I have some I
have time for it. Now havingtrained in it, you know, like, I
believe all of it, you know, Ihave doubts with it as well. But
you know, there's some stuff tobe said about it. And one thing
they often say is that it's allabout the dose degree of the
dose, like, what is the, andthey have this thing where they

(57:45):
say the poison is the medicineand the medicine is the poison,
like, so it's all about thedose. And the same with Ashtanga
for a while, that dose needed tobe a certain level, right? You
know, and that kept me pulled mefrom what I consider reasonable
mental health challenges in myearly 20s, you know, like I was,
you know, I felt like, I waslosing my mind, you know, and
so, for the sake of everyone,for the sake of myself, you

(58:08):
know, really, it kept me sane,and it kept me from drinking
myself into oblivion, which waswhat was happening, otherwise
self medicating with, withalcohol and with medication, you
know, and so it was wonderful,and it forever grateful. But
that point, that point, thatmedicine, which was, you know,
was so valuable, that I feltalmost felt it was a duty to
dedicate my life to sharing it,you know, because it has saved

(58:30):
my life, probably literally, youknow, like, you know, you see on
the hinge down now, what do youimagine I own changed, you know,
I was with templates toGuinness, and you know, and
always medication, right? Yeah,the fully unhinged, so. But at
that point, you know, like, itprotected me too much like from
other people, and it became likea comfort blanket, you just do

(58:50):
your practice, and then youdon't have to do anything else
in the world. And you can justgo back and you know, you know,
spend all day just like lookingafter yourself, and then go off
and teach them, you know, itbecame the poison, you know, and
also the poison because at acertain point, like Chuck Milan
member saying to me, when I wasin my heyday, actually, a
certain point, you got to letthis go. And if you don't

(59:11):
contextualize it to somethingdeeper and broader than just
asking it, it's gonna be really,really painful for you. You
know? And it was, yeah, it wasand you see people now, I mean,
sorry, I'll let you go in.
That'd be like just like, you'vetalked to me about how painful
it is to when you've beenattached to doing all those
things. And I see people come tomy classes and there's such pain

(59:32):
but just such a taxing to stillget the leg behind the head
anyway, or still catching and wesee this in mice all the time.
People It's hideous backtrouble, still feel like because
if they don't catch them,they've not done their duty, or,
I don't know, it's a weird loopof mindset to get into and one
that I can't fully articulate,but I've been there, you know,
yeah.

(59:52):
Do you Yeah.

Do you think that's okay, do you think we can
still call the Sangha yoga andremove that

Unknown (01:00:00):
I'm not doing those things. Yeah. You can Yeah,
yeah. No, I there's nodiscrepancy or, or contradiction
in my mind. You know, ifsomeone's young, and they're
able, and they want to go toMysore, I'm not going to go, Oh,
don't don't do leg behind thehead. So you know, like, oh, it
might hurt. Yeah. Yeah, I'mgonna go with Yeah, totally,

(01:00:23):
like, get into it like I did I,you know, I put a hand standing
between every posture, like, youknow, like, and I would
encourage people who want to bedynamic to be dynamic, you know,
as long as it's not as long asthey're hurting themselves,
right. But on the other hand, Imean, like, once it comes a
point, when it's, you know,one's getting older ones
injured, or one simply not indoesn't want to be in the shape

(01:00:46):
that you need to be in to be. Soup there with practice, you
know, because it takes a certainlevel of conditioning, right,
like, you know, yes. And thenyou then you treat, you treat it
accordingly. There's a methodbehind the essence and like this
finger pointing to the moon, orlike, I'd say about the poison
the medicine, there's a methodbehind the essence is grasping
the method, which I call theinner stretch, you know, which

(01:01:08):
is the generally the the pullingtowards oneself, the use of the
shape to get the diaphragmaticbreathing, right to understand
the use of the diaphragm, whichI suggest is what the bundler is
looking for, is really theengagement of a full body
experience related todiaphragmatic breath, and the
holding of the body in a certainpostural shape. So you're not in

(01:01:31):
a bundle of abundance sake,there's, that's that's
ridiculous. Like, you know, likethat bundle has a reason it's
not, it can't be the cause. Andthe effect, you know, that the
bundle is the cause and effects,and its effect for me is
diaphragmatic breath, you know.
So, this is the method. This isthe deeper teaching, and whether
you pointed toe here, or can putyour leg behind your head or
catch your ankles, it'sirrelevant. And for most people,

(01:01:54):
leg by in their head andcatching ankles, is
inappropriate, you know? It'snot to say that it's not, it's,
then it's inappropriate foreveryone. Of course not. But
we've got to realize that whenTiger Joy was teaching this
method, originally, he wasteaching it to very young
people, you know, and then whenthe kids, you know, when the kid

(01:02:15):
I say the kids are, like, twomice are originally you know,
like this Swensons and thenDavid Williams and stuff, super
young, and I was young doing it,you know, I mean, like, you
know, because we deny age now,oh, it doesn't matter, you know,
like, we're not old tonight, youknow, like, we don't get old,
like, look at me when I'm 50 andI'm still doing this, like this
great. If that's the case, youknow, like some people are
proud, you know, Darby was thesame, you know, like neath about

(01:02:37):
like a freak of nature. But formost of us, right, as we get
older, like shit happens in thebody does age and there's being
honest and realistic and going,Well, I still love to do this
practice. But you know, if Ikeep putting my leg behind my
head, I'm gonna end up in awheelchair. I mean, yes, yes.
You know what I mean? It's justbeing like, sensible like that,
you know, and still, nothing haschanged. Nothing has changed

(01:02:59):
with the yoga has only gonedeeper for me, actually, having
taken out that the emphasis onthe having taken the emphasis
out on the, on the, let's say,the peak of the iceberg. Yeah,
now you can kind of go down andlook at the iceberg below,
because you're not focusinganymore on like, oh, just the
shiny Summit, which isdistracting because it's all
shiny and looks nice. But nowyou can look at you know, like

(01:03:22):
what's below it? Because nolonger distracted by that little
shiny peak.

Todd McLaughlin (01:03:28):
Oh, yes. Man, I want to be respectful of your
time. And I hope for you that'slistening over. You have to go
check out Adam, your podcasts.
You have YouTube channel?
Definitely follow Adam onInstagram. Um, is there anything

(01:03:48):
Adam? I know, it's, you know,to, to bring it into a close
here. Is there anything? I thinkwe've covered some great
subjects. And I just want tosay, Yeah, I do, I just think
and I really had a great time,this is really fun. For me. I'm
so excited. I've been lookingforward to this for a couple of
weeks now. So keep keep doingwhat you're doing. Because I

(01:04:10):
benefit a lot from reading yourposts. I apologize if I don't
get a chance to comment andevery time but I really do read
every one of them from from topto bottom, and you do an amazing
job. So I think you know, thatconversation can continue there.
But I'm Do you have anythingthat you'd like to finish with
or close with?

Unknown (01:04:31):
Oh, I think I've said a lot. But I just want to say if
anyone is sick of me, I'm reallysorry. I know, I'm out there a
lot, you know, and it's youknow, the big mouth. I mean, you
know, it's just for the sake of,of this kind of BMI born and
I've got about about you know,like using Yoga, you know, in
the deepest sense to be caredfor for all of us, you know. And
so, yeah, I also want to say,you know, on the other side, but

(01:04:52):
people like you that have gotanything out of it, you know and
say that to me, I mean, it justmeans so much to me, and I'm so
deeply touched in it. Yeah, youknow, yeah, really, you know, I
can't say enough how much itmakes my life worthwhile, you
know, basically. And, you know,and that means a lot to me. So
yeah, thanks for having me on.
And I'm sorry, if I talk toomuch, and, you know, really

(01:05:14):
appreciate it if, if anything Isay is meaningful or relevant to
anyone else. No, because I thinkall we've got, you know, all we
know, for sure, that we've gotin this life, you know, is to
share ourselves with each other,you know, and whatever that
means, you know, and keep tryingto expand out outwards, expand
outwards, in care into eachother, and an interest interest,

(01:05:34):
you know, and so I hope I'm inany small way, encouraging that
and if I am then I'm, I'm sograteful to be in the position
to be able to do that.

Thank you, Adam. Well, you're an
inspiration to me, man. I reallyappreciate it. Three, thank you.
Until Until next time,

Unknown (01:05:54):
yeah. Next time.

Native yoga Todd cast is produced by myself.
The theme music is dreamed up byBryce Allen. If you liked this
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And if you have ideas for futureguests or topics, please send us

(01:06:21):
your thoughts to info at Nativeyoga center. You can find us at
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Adam Keen - On Yoga & the Quest for Meaning

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Adam Keen - On Yoga & the Quest for Meaning