Darnell "Moe" Washington ~ Finding Peace and Purpose Through Yoga in Prison

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Darnell "Moe" Washington is a passionate advocate for yoga and meditation as transformative tools for personal development and community healing. Once deeply involved in gang activities in South Central Los Angeles, Moe turned his life around during a 26-year prison sentence, discovering yoga and meditation's power to foster restorative justice and personal healing. He is now the founder of the African American Community Healing organization, through which he facilitates yoga and meditation sessions to help others transcend their past and develop healthier lives.

Visit Moe on his website: https://www.africanamericanch.org/

Key Takeaways:

• Yoga and meditation have been critical in Moe Washington's journey, offering tools for personal and community healing.
• Restorative justice provides a path toward understanding and healing by bringing together victims, offenders, and community members.
• Moe’s African American Community Healing organization offers free access to yoga and meditation to foster positive social change.
• Belief and support from individuals and the community are vital in transforming past life experiences into positive futures.

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Episode Transcript

(00:33):
Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast,so happy you are here. My goal
with this channel is to bringinspirational speakers to the
mic in the field of yoga,massage, body work and beyond.
Follow us at @nativeyoga andcheck us out at
nativeyogacenter.com. All right,let's begin.

(00:57):
Todd, welcome to Native YogaToddcast my name is Todd
McLaughlin, and today I bring toyou Darnell "Moe" Washington.
Moe has a story that's going tochange your mind. It's going to

(01:18):
open your mind, and I think it'sgoing to replace any doubt that
you have with love andcompassion. His story is
inspirational, powerful, and itis a example that all of us have
the ability to change, torehabilitate and to serve our

(01:39):
community in a way that ishealthy and productive. Visit
him on his website,africanamericanch.org which
stands for African AmericanCommunity Healing. And also take
a look at prisonyoga.org as thetopic of this conversation is
punitive justice versusrestorative justice, and the

(02:02):
role yoga and meditation canplay in the process of
restorative justice, I'm honoredthat Moe trusts me with to hear
his story and to share hisstory. Please go to his website
and make a donation. It'll helphis community in Los Angeles
have access to yoga and histeaching, and I just think that

(02:28):
when you hear his story, you'regoing to be as inspired as I am.
And so with that being said,also, if you know somebody who
is looking for a guest speaker.
Moe does do guest speaking andmotivational speaking. So if you
can help him spread his message,if you can share this podcast

(02:50):
with as many people that youknow, care about and love,
ultimately, with the intentionof helping Moe and to help build
this program that he is puttingtogether, and again, just so
happy to be here. And let's getstarted. Today. I have the
opportunity to bring to Darnell"Moe" Washington, and I'm really

(03:12):
honored to have thisopportunity. Moe, I've been
looking forward to thisconversation for quite a while.
Thank you so much for joining metoday.
Thank you very much for havingme.
You know, I learned about yourstory, which I find extremely
inspirational, from a friend,Robert Sturman, and he

(03:35):
introduced us. And thank you somuch, Robert for making the
introduction. And I've beenthinking a lot last few days
before now, like, how, where canI start? And so I think I'd like
to start Moe with, why? What doyou feel like yoga and
meditation has done for you inyour life? How has it helped

(03:57):
you?
Well, in different forms. I knowyoga, from the beginning, made
me deal with my masculinity, youknow, because of my perception
of yoga and people who did yoga.
So that was one thing. Throughmy meditation is helped me slow
down and sit. And I find thatexcuse me, I finally not going

(04:18):
to resolve things much betterafter sitting and meditating. So
that's been, like, very, veryhelpful to me.
Yes, amazing, MO. And you know,on that note, can you fill me in
on some of details about yourstory, and if we start back

(04:41):
around about your when you're inhigh school, can you talk a
little bit about the events thatled to you spending time in
prison?
Well, I was in high school. Igraduated from high school, was
in my first year of college. Andcame home and my 15 year old

(05:03):
cousin was shot point blank inthe forehead with a shotgun. I
couldn't really stay focusedanymore in my classroom, you
know, just seeing that imageimplanted in my head and through
the anger and the grief, I choseto drop out of college and
started gang banging, and it'sthe same time crack cocaine was

(05:23):
coming in our community in theearly 80s, like 8384 and it just
snowballed into me gang banging,and that led me to ended up
shooting and killing one of myhomeboys who I'll set up when
our other homeboys to getkilled, and I made the decision
to shoot him as well.
Wow. And this is all in in LosAngeles, correct?

(05:50):
Yeah. This is all in SouthCentral Los Angeles.
Oh, man. And, and so were youarrested at the scene, or was it
a time from the actual event towhen you were incarcerated?
No, I was arrested about a yearlater. I was arrested, then let

(06:11):
go, but then arrested rearrested again about a year
later, wow.
And what was your sentence?
35 to life.
Yeah. Where did you start yoursentence? At
Corcoran State Prison.
And can you tell me a little bitabout what that was like when

(06:37):
you first entered in and whereyou're at mentally, and the
realization of of what sittingin a cell was like for you.
Well, this wasn't my first timein prison. I had been to prison
prior in 1988 as well, but thistime coming, the whole system

(06:57):
was different. And just lookingat everything that was going on
in the yard, you know, and atthe time, he's still being a
gang member, I was like, I'mjust done with this. And, you
know, a thought came to my headis that, how can I be in prison
influencing another man's son tolive a Negative lifestyle in
prison, but getting on the phoneand wanting the best for my

(07:17):
sons? So at that point, I madethe decision that I'm just going
to turn my life around and usemy leadership in a positive way.
Wow, at what point were youintroduced to yoga and
meditation while you'reincarcerated?
I came to prison in 1998 I wasintroduced into it and 2012 I

(07:43):
was transferred to San QuentinState Prison, and they was
having a health fair, and theyhad all these different, you
know, things about health, andsomeone saying, Hey, Mom, won't
you come try yoga? Because theyknew I was, I would try
anything. And I went, and it waslike, Alright. I'm like, Okay,
it's alright. And then one of myfriends, or one of my group, red
fry, he decided to invite me towhere I can practice on a

(08:08):
regular basis in class, and ittook off from there.
What type of realizations didyou start to have as you went
into the world of meditation andlooking within,
well, well, through meditation,I realized I had a lot of
different issues that wasn'twasn't addressed, and I needed

(08:32):
to address them. So, you know,just being able to just sit
sometimes and not even speak,you know, just sit and just sit
with what's going on, and then Ican come back and make the right
decisions. And that helped me alot. And I joined the Buddhist
group as well. And so I wasgoing every Sunday to the
Buddhist group. I love topractice, you know, you know the

(08:54):
Four Noble Truth, that'sbasically what I stay focused
on. And in that it has helpedme, like my life, grow immensely
in a much more common, commonway, common way, I would say,
understanding that, you know,we're all interconnected, you
know, and understanding that,and understanding that people
have different life experiences,so their view of life and my

(09:18):
view of life is going to bedifferent, and I can sit with
that and understand that and notbe, you know, judgmental of them
because of the way they up theirupbringing was. But I, my main
thing is, like what I learnedfrom this, that we all have a
commonality, so go to thosecommonalities first, and then
maybe we can work our way out todeal with other issues that

(09:39):
keeps us far apart.
You have a website that isAfrican American ch.org which is
for African American communityhealing, and you're able to
facilitate yoga and meditationnow that you are out of prison.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat. Like for you to facilitate

(10:02):
this within your community.
Well, you know, nonprofit Irolled out in everything,
everything I did, I did while Iwas in prison and, you know,
believing it was going to happenwhen I came home, me and James
always talked about him comingto my community and running a
class, and Robert Sterman, whointroduced me to you, was one of

(10:24):
the cameramans who came into SanQuentin, and we said, we will
hook up when we get out. BecauseI was from LA, he was from Santa
Monica. And so I came home, hewas taking, come take pictures
of the people in the community.
And I'm telling my friends aboutit, and community members about
it. And they were, like, reallyinterested in in it. So invited
James down, and we did aworkshop, and we did a yoga

(10:46):
workshop, and then communitymembers was, like, really
excited about it, and a lot ofthem was asking me, you know,
how much it would cost? And Iwas telling them, it's not going
to cost you anything. You know,I'm doing this through my
nonprofit imma, start runningthis program in our park, in the
gym, and then you have freeaccess to it. If you would like
to donate to the program. That'scool. But I want you to be able

(11:09):
to have full access to thispractice, which I've been
practicing, without you havingworried about, you know, taking
money from your food or anythinglike that. Oh man,
that's amazing mode that you'vebeen able to make this sort of
turnaround. You know, one thingI would love to ask more

(11:31):
questions about is, likepunitive justice versus
restorative justice, and howyoga meditation plays into this.
But before we even go a littledeeper in there. I'm curious,
because I have never been aroundgang related activity. Can you
talk a little bit about what itwas like being in that world?

(11:54):
Well, it's like, you know,people from the outside looking
in think that it's all violence,but it's really like family, you
know, like my uncle is one ofthe ones who started our game
way back in 1963 and we theyused to go to Griffith Park, and
I would be a kid and see allthese people gathering together,
you know, there's a lot ofthings going on in the 60s, and

(12:16):
then, like, even when I startedgang banging, you know, we had a
lot of picnics. We had a lot ofparties, you know, barbecue, we
did things to come together, butthen there was violence. When
someone got hurt, there wasretaliation. And through that
retaliation, it just, it's likea repeated cycle, you know,
like, say, like my cousin beingkilled, and then someone else

(12:37):
getting killed, and then goingto seek revenge. It was like a
repeated cycle that was goingon. And it just reverted all the
way back to when my cousin gotkilled, seeing someone else, you
know, and just all of thesepeople, young men, that was
getting killed, where no one wasover 21 years old. So just
imagining our community having abeautiful community, and then

(12:58):
next, you know, boom, people aregetting shot, and there's drugs,
you know, you didn't have timeto adjust to this thing, so you
just went along with it.
Yeah, that makes sense. What?
What gang were you in? Mo, Iwas in the Bloods. Got it. Our
neighborhood is called Van s, sowe was called Van s gangster,
and we were Bloods. How?

(13:20):
What is the origins of the Cripsand the Bloods in relation to
how did there become such aintense rivalry between these
two gangs?
Well, I think through like time,I think that, like the 70s and
stuff, they might fought more,but in the 80s, when they
brought crack cocaine into ourcommunities, we started having
more money, being that you wouldever have more money, you were

(13:41):
able to buy more guns. And thenguys we used to grow up with
that used to come to our parkthat stayed across the state,
across the tracks, you know,once my cousin got killed, it
was like, you know, they notcoming back over here, no more.
And it just snowballed into onething, one person getting
killed, another person gettingkilled. And it just became a
cycle of violence. Understood.

(14:05):
Mo, I cannot imagine what it islike to be in prison like I
can't, I can't imagine it. Canyou fill me in a little bit
about what, what is that like, Imean, I I've always heard like
San Quentin being one of thehardest prisons in the country

(14:27):
in terms of dangerous anddifficult. But then upon our pre
podcast conversation, you kindof educated me that, if that's a
lot is a lot has changed. Canyou, can you tell me what it's
like being in prison? I mean,well, I just can't even fathom
it.
Well, I think, you know,starting off just, you know,

(14:47):
just being locked up and beingtold what to do, how to do it,
and then you have violence goingon, where people on someone for
drug debts, and somebody'sgetting stabbed or turns into a
big riot. It, and those thingslike that. And then, you know,
at the same time, you practicerestorative justice, and people

(15:08):
didn't know it, and I didn'tknow it at the time, you know,
because it could be a riot. Andthen people come together,
negotiate, resolve thesituation. We go back to, you
know, a normal program with oneanother. But you know, it's a
lot of different things. Youknow, different ethnic groups
has their own politics, youknow, per se, and that creates a

(15:29):
lot of problems as well. But youcan also, you know, negotiate a
lot and communicate with peoplea lot as well. And so, like the
whole prison system has changed,it's way less violence. Even at
all prisons you still have, likestabbings, you know, but a lot
of it's like in house, basicallygang members stabbing their own

(15:51):
gang members there, it's not asmany as riots and things like
that anymore.
Wow, when you decided to useyour prison sentence as a
rehabilitation opportunity. Wasgetting out of the gang
something that you had to thinkreally long and hard about. And

(16:12):
is that extremely difficult, orwhat was the process for you to
like to make that step?
Well, you know, different ethnicgroups have different gang
policies. Like AfricanAmericans, we can just say, Man,
I'm cool. You know, I'm not withthis no more. You know, they
can. They can involve religion,different things. We don't

(16:34):
pressure nobody into beinganything. You know, I had a lot
of respect when I came intoprison, like my reputation from
the streets. And even though,like, I wouldn't, I walk, I
couldn't say I completely walkedaway. I just prayed on it like,
you know, let me use myleadership in a positive way. So
I still hung around my homeboys.
You know, we worked outtogether, we did positive we did
things together, but I alwayswanted to be that voice of

(16:57):
reason. So if you had someoneolder influencing the youngster
to do something negative, Iwould pull the youngster to the
side and give them anotheroption to do something positive.
You know, if someone's trying todo something positive,
somebody's talking negativeabout them, you know, I would
talk to them about like, youknow, they doing the right
thing. You know, look at us inprison right now. So it, you

(17:17):
know, some people just didn'tlike it. But, you know, with my
violent past and people knew howI once was, you know, I gained a
lot of respect through that andjust influencing these guys in a
positive way.
Amazing. Can you talk a littlebit about the importance of

(17:37):
believing people feeling belief?
I had the opportunity to listento an amazing TED talk that you
gave, and I'll include that linkin the description so people can
check and check that out aswell. But I showed both my wife
and son, and we were all intears after listening to it. In
terms of inspiration, I'mcurious if you'd be willing to

(17:57):
talk a little bit about howimportant being believed in or
also sharing belief in someoneis in this sort of recovery,
recovery from prison,yeah, or recovery from I suppose
you know, integration back intosociety, and having the feeling

(18:21):
that, how are people going toreceive me?
Yeah, I think, like, for me,like a lot of people say, Mo,
you did a 26 year prisonsentence, and I, and I always
like, hey, no, I was on a 26year retreat. You know, in
dealing with healing,accountability, responsibility,

(18:42):
you know, mindfulness, you know,just getting everything in line.
So coming back home and theperson I was when I came home is
like society accepted me. Myfriend accepted me. People
listen to my story, and theyaccept me. So it wasn't a
problem because I was cominghome and giving people a version

(19:04):
of transformation. You know, Iwas a good kid, never missed
school, accomplished all ofthese things while I was in high
school, and then a tragedyhappened, and from that trauma
and shame and guilt not beingthere for my cousin when that
happened, it's made me goviolence. I never, you know, we
didn't have counseling or any ofthose things that we have
nowadays for children when theygo through things. And so after

(19:27):
going to prison and doing thatretreat for those 26 years, and
you know, being able to dealwith all of my issues, I was
able to transform my life backagain to who I truly am and to
live that life to the fullest.
So people, I give people thatexample of my life to where, you
know, we should not judge peoplebecause we don't know their life
experiences, and just let themknow, like you have bad life

(19:49):
experiences as well. But there'sa healing path that we can take,
and we can do it together, oryou can do it on your own, but
you know, no one has. Stay inthat stagnant place.
Yeah, yeah, amazing. I with whenI looked and studied the prison
yoga.org website, I noticed thatthey listed like punitive

(20:14):
justice into like fourcategories of like retribution,
deference, incapacitation andretributive justice, can you and
I guess retribution, punishmentis imposed as a form of
vengeance for the wrongdoing inrelation to restorative justice.
How does restorative justicefolk redirect this idea of the

(20:42):
method of rehabilitation justthrough being kind of locked up,
how does the restorative justicekind of approach that
differently?
Well, I was while in SanQuentin, I was going to have
facilitators restorative justiceand what it does, which is
really so important, it brings,like the victim or slash

(21:06):
survivor, the offender and thecommunity member all together.
And that's one of the thingsthat attracted me to restore, to
just bring the communitymembers. And because a lot of
times, the community membersdon't have a voice, you know,
the person gets convicted, justsits off the prison. The victim
doesn't really get a lot ofquestions answered. To know that

(21:27):
maybe the crime that wascommitted against him wasn't
personal, it could be from aperson's upbringing, not that it
justifies it, but to hearsomeone's story, which led him
to where they was able to commita crime, it gives people a
better view of things, and thencommunity members being able to
have a voice, you know, andabout what's going on. And you

(21:48):
know, it doesn't mean that youdon't go to jail. You don't but
the thing is that restorativejustice tries to bring healing,
and I think it tries to bringmore of an understanding of why
this happened, and how can wedeal with this situation,
because I believe that, yes, wehave a lot of people in prison,
but our whole society has aresponsibility to that. It's a

(22:10):
lot of things that lead peopleto prison, and people think it's
only an individual act, but it'sus as a society, like, for say,
for instance, in my communityafter I graduated, you know, our
community was flooded crackcocaine. There was defunding,
the education, social programs,all of these things which left
people with nothing to do. Sowhat happens? You bring drugs in

(22:33):
the community? What is going tohappen? They knew what was going
to happen. And this is why Iended up the way it has, you
know, and you know, and withthat comes violence and gangs,
because people are uneducated,people are not getting healing,
and it just snowballs. Butrestorative justice tries to
bring that back and get people'sstory out. You know, when people

(22:56):
talk to me and heard about megoing to school, and it's not
They couldn't believe it,because a lot of time people
have images of especially blackmen that were just born out of
our mother's womb into games.
No, we go through trauma likeeveryone else, and we end up
making bad choices, and one ofthose choices was joining the
game.
Well, said, No, do. How did yourfamily react to your

(23:22):
imprisonment? Were theysupportive? Did you have some
members of your immediatefamily, your blood family, that
would come and visit you? Didyou have anybody turn their back
on you? What was the role thatyour family played in the
process of while you were inprison?
Well, my family was verysupportive of me. My mother
always came to visit me. Theyhad a program called Get on the

(23:44):
bus, and it was sponsoredthrough the Catholic Church. And
get on the bus program, theywould raise money, and then
Father's Day, they would bringyou would just sign up and give
them your family memberscontact, and they would bring
your kids on a nice, like,luxury bus to come visit you,
and they pay for all the food,pay for all the pictures and all

(24:07):
of those things. So my motherwould come up every year with
that, because she didn't have topay or anything like that. Yeah.
But she stayed, you know,visiting me. And I communicated
with my family members, youknow, on weekly basis, talking
them on the phone how I've beenchanging, and, you know, things
that they need to do with youknow how they need to change,
and what's helped me get my lifetogether while I'm in here. So

(24:29):
send them a lot of positiveMike, my crown was and
certificates, so they can seewhat I'm actually doing in
prison.
Nice. Yeah, how important wasthat, in relation to the other
inmates that you were with thatdid not have any familial
contact,well, just communicating with
them, not to give up, you know,but to stay focused on yourself.

(24:51):
Yeah, and we are family insidehere, so we're very supportive
of each other, you know, peoplehaving family members. Passing
away, and guys coming togetherand giving them condolence cards
and supportive of them. So wewere like a family inside as
well. So if you didn't havefamily on the outside
communicating, we was a youknow, we took care of each other

(25:12):
inside as well. Wow.
I i noticed that even in mylocal community here, that men
will look at yoga and say,that's, that's only for women,
or I don't think yoga justprobably isn't for me, because,

(25:33):
you know, I'm I'm tough, I'mstrong, and these sort of ideas,
and I would imagine that thatwould be so much more intense in
prison, like I would imagine,just like the masculinity
component of like, trying tolike show how tough somebody is,
that to bring yoga into thatenvironment would seem even
doubly challenging. Can you talka little bit about what your

(25:57):
first thought was upon seeing itand what was a turnaround moment
for you in relation to acceptingthat potentially you could get
benefit from practice?
Well, you know, just firstwalking into, like, tell people,
I always thought about yoga, andI thought about Richard Simmons,

(26:17):
the first guy that came to yourmind, yeah. I mean, just to be
honest, yeah. So that'sgetting into yoga is like, you
know, I was like, you know,hesitant, and I'm like, Okay,
I'm this guy. I work out realhard and this and that. And, you
know, James is a great James Foxof prison yoga. He's a great
instructor and talks you throughand let you know this is not

(26:38):
about, you know, muscles andeverything. It's about heart,
body and mind and being in theline with each other. And as he
started talking more about that,I started to realize that my
heart, body and mind was not inthe line. So that's why I was
going through so many, like, upsand downs and coming in there
with that masculinity. And Ilike to tell the story about we

(26:59):
were in there doing yoga oneday, and James had us in plank
position, and I'm looking atJames like, you know, this
skinny, older eye guy, and I'mout here working out. He's not
going to outdo me, and I'm inthis plank position, and he's
holding us, and he's just like,calmly talking, and I'm over
there fighting it because Ireally can't hold it, and then

(27:19):
I'm sweating, and next thing Icollapsed. And after collapsing,
you know, that day, I went backto my cell, and I sat and
meditated, and a lot of thingscame up. I'm like, you know,
this is masculinity. I'mprejudging this person because
he's older and this and that.

(27:44):
And I didn't just go back in thedownward dog like he would ask
us do if he got tired. And thenI came to the conclusion, this
is how I was in my regular life.
This is how I was when I wasgang banging. I was keep myself
in a position because I didn'twant to back down, till I ended
up just taking off fighting ordoing something, you know, act

(28:04):
of violence. And then it made methink, like, okay, just think
about it. Just backed up out ofit, just like with downward dog
and, you know, and catch mybreath and get everything in the
line, then I can come back intoposition. And it's the same way
when it comes to conflict, youknow, I didn't felt myself in a
conflict, but I'm so arousedthat I can't make a right

(28:26):
decision. So I would just backup out of it, and I would come
back later when I had a clearhead, you know, no thoughts, you
know, not like they've been notsay this, I said that. Just go
back into it with a clear head,and then have a conversation
with someone, and it worked outbetter. And I realized that came
up from that, from that yogasituation that I'd had, and they

(28:51):
made me realize, okay, thisstuff was really working once I
connected two together and that,you know, that was like, you
know, aha moment for me.
Yeah, that is a big one. That'samazing. Mo, that's so cool. You
know, in relation to restorativejustice, there's emphasis placed

(29:12):
on healing, accountability,reintegration, collaboration, on
the note of healing. Do you feellike you have achieved healing?
Yes, I believe that I wouldachieve healing, but it's an
ongoing process. You know, beingin gangs and just living in

(29:33):
South Central or so muchviolence. You know, I understand
like trauma, and I understandPTS, because a lot of things
still come up for me, but I'mable to sit with those things.
And I used to drink a lot, butnow I've chose not to drink. So
I've been sober for the last 27years. So in being sober, it

(29:54):
makes me realize how many thingsI was suppressing through
alcohol, because those. Thingsstill come up now, and I just go
sit with them, and just sit andmeditate and let it process, do
what's going on in my mind andin my heart, and just like, let
it go through and then I canjust talk to someone about it,

(30:16):
because it never it's not likeit's not never healing. It's not
an ending cycle. It's an ongoingcycle, so that that helps a lot.
And just being in prison for 26years, you know, understanding
the trauma I went through there,the mentality that's ingrained
in your head, you know, like itcould be triggering for me, for

(30:37):
someone to continue to like, toask me questions, you know,
quitting to question me, it'slike, that's a trigger for me,
because being in prison, they'realways like, where are you going
do this, do that, being toldwhat to do. So coming home and
someone doing that, it's like, Ifeel like, like triggering,
because it's like, I'm free now,so why are you questioning me?

(30:58):
But I realized that came from mebeing in prison, and it's just
those little things that beingrained in you, like coming
home and saying, I gotta go to adental ducket. That's something
we say in prison out here, I goto a dental appointment, you
know. So those things are like,ingrained in your head, yeah,

(31:18):
you don't realize it till yousay it like, I'm going to
nothing, like I'm going to thewhen I was in the reentry room,
I said, I'm going to the dayroom. The day room is in prison
at home. I'm going to the livingroom. Yeah, so learning these
things and acknowledging whatyou really been through. And
because I could have came homeand been drinking and I could
have been this, like,suppressing all of those things,

(31:40):
oh,man, that's incredible. Mo, when
you do, you have moments at homenow where you have to force
yourself to get out and get outjust for a walk and fresh air
and or are you just feeling soenamored with the freedom of
being able to do whatever youwant in the moment. How does

(32:01):
that play out when you get outof prison?
Well, for me, I like my safespace was the beach Santa Monica
Beach. Hours to go there as akid, and so that's where I go. I
like to go to beach and just sitout there. You know, my thing

(32:22):
was, like, I can look at theocean and look how far it goes
back and wondering where it endsat, you know, and that's life
possibility. It's the same. Sojust being in that open space at
the beach, you know, like, notaround a bunch of buildings, and
then, like, just space, just tobe able to have space to just
move in. It's really helpful,because in prison, you always

(32:45):
have buildings, you have gates,so you know that you're you know
you're enclosed. So going to thebeach is so much this freeness,
or just going into hiking andjust hearing just sounds that
you've haven't heard for inyears, and understanding that
you free being in nature, it's,it's like, really a healing

(33:07):
place to go. Wow,oh my gosh. I can't, I can only
imagine. I, I had an opportunitymode to sit and do a 10 day
silent meditation retreat, andoftentimes I thought, Oh, this
could be a little bit like beingin prison, but obviously totally
different, because at anymoment, I could grab my keys and
I could go and so I'm curious inthe process of, like you said,

(33:30):
always having gates around youand walls and always that
feeling of being enclosed whenyou were When you would choose
to sit and practice meditation.
How did you deal with thosereally intense moments that of
feeling like I'm enclosed? Idon't know. I'm just so curious.

(33:51):
Like, I mean, I'm just what itwas like for you in that in your
head space to kind of workthrough all that.
Well, I think a lot of time,like, you can feel enclosed, you
know, like they say, you can bein prison, but prison doesn't
have to be in you. And throughmy practice of, you know,
Buddhism and meditation, I cameto the point where, you know,

(34:14):
that's where I came to thatpoint to where I'm saying, Okay,
this is a retreat for me. Sotherefore I'm not in prison, I'm
on a retreat, and I'm dealingwith all of my issues, and as
I'm dealing with all of myissues, other things are coming
up, but now I have a practice todeal with those things when they
come up, so that was making adifference. So it's easy, like

(34:36):
I'm in an intern, you know, likeyou in an internship, doing
something so I can have anissue, but I'm responding to it
different, you know, through myprayer and my meditation, I know
how to make the right choices,and then on my whole in my
thought process, I'm saying,okay, Imma. Need these
practices. So when I go home,you know, because I knew I was

(34:57):
going to get out of prison, soI. Was already preparing myself
to get out of prison by learningthese things through my
meditation practice and yogapractice and my faith in God. So
already knew that, and thencoming home and understanding
these things, I was able to useit when I came home when certain
things came up. Amazing.

(35:20):
Yeah, you know, I'm I'mguessing, but instead of
guessing, I'm sure you canplease fill me in. Did you grow
up with faith? Did you grow upin the around the church or in
the church?
Yes, yes. Like, she like grewour grandmother, and she would
take me to church like everySunday, you know, up until I was
like 12, to my mom. Let me makemy own decision. So I always

(35:42):
grew up around, you know, churchand gospel music and things like
that. So I always had thatinside of me, and then I had to
just revert back to that, yeah.
And one day, I was coming out ofchurch, and one of my friends
was at the Buddhist practice,because it's right next to it,
and he introduced me intoBuddhism. So when I came in,

(36:04):
they was like, Well, you knowmore Bucha means awakened one.
And I say, if you're aChristian, Jesus Christ can be
awakened one, and there is noconflict. So I'm like, Okay. And
then I was introduced to theFour Noble Truth. And I was
like, this makes a lot of sense,you know, like, okay, they're
suffering. There's a cause ofsuffering in the suffering. I'm

(36:27):
like, this is like, really, whatI really like. So I'm like,
okay, and I got more into it,you know, then the three poison,
then I look at society, youknow, greed, hate and delusion.
Like, you can't make this stuffup. I got more into it, and I
was able to view things indifferent ways now and

(36:48):
understand people, andunderstand what people are going
through, and then justunderstanding that we're all
connected. That was, like, mybiggest thing, we're all
connected. We all wanthappiness. We want all of these
things, but we're fightingagainst it. And you know, no
matter what your faith is orwhatever you practice, you know
one of the biggest the preceptsof commandments is to love. So

(37:10):
how is we? Everyone's practicingthese different faith or
spiritual practices, but there'sso much anger and hate, so
something is wrong here.
So interesting to think about,like you said, the Four Noble
Truths and and life, the firstone being, life is suffering.

(37:32):
And like how you related it tothat realization of, perhaps
while being in prison, and thenthis, that that, that
correlation of maybe all of usin life are on some level or
another, some form of prison, ifwe're being held down by our
thoughts or our feelings or ouremotions. And that is so

(37:53):
fascinating to hear. It fromyour perspective of having that
realization. Have you ever had acrisis of faith throughout the
26 years that you were inprison? Did you have a moment of
anger toward God or higher poweror society, or the events that

(38:15):
led you to bringing you there?
Did you did you have any momentslike that? Or do you feel like
you always within just had areally strong sense of purpose
and faith?
Well, I don't think I really gotto that point of just being
angry like that is one thing Iunderstand once you understand
accepting your responsibilityand being accountable. My

(38:39):
actions led me to prison. No oneelse's actions. I made, choices
that led me to where I was at.
So I can't blame that on God. Ican't blame it on my practice,
Buddhist practice, all these mychoices that I've made. And
while in prison, certain thingshappen, people passing away, but
understanding that I'll see himagain, and just having faith to

(39:02):
do the right thing still, I waslike, okay, things are going to
be alright, you know, becausethere's so much more you still
have to live for. In honoringthose who pass by me living my
life in a healthy and amanageable way is honoring them.
So I had to continue to stay onthat right track, because I knew

(39:24):
that people, if I've failed andstart going crazy in prison, how
that would hurt, you know, myfamily members as well. So
staying on that right track,and, you know, I had a young guy
to mentor. And he's like, youknow, some guys that you know we
didn't really get along. And hewas like, I'm surprised you
haven't did anything to one ofthem guys. I said doing

(39:47):
something one of them guys isnot going to resolve anything.
They're going to be who they'regoing to be. You know, my thing
is to stay focused on what I'mdoing. And I remember when I
came home and. We me and him washaving a conversation, and he
was like, you remember what Itold you? Like, what are you
talking about more? I said,Remember not said I wouldn't do
nothing to one of those guys.

(40:09):
You got to stay focused and dothe right thing. And he said,
Yeah. I said, look where I'm atnow. He said, Yeah, that makes a
lot of sense. So acting out inviolence does not resolve
situations, you can practice,restore the justice, have a
conversation with someone. Andeven if you guys still don't
have agreement with each other,it doesn't have to result into

(40:29):
violence. Like, okay, this iswhat this person is in his life,
and this is where I'm in mylife. We can agree to disagree
and we can just move forward.
Nice. That's amazing, though, inin relation because you were
kind of talking aboutaccountability there, in
relation to reintegration, canyou speak a little bit on what

(40:50):
it's like teaching yoga andmeditation in your community and
some of the transformation thatyou've witnessed and the folks
that have come in contact withyou?
Yeah, I think just like, youknow, people seeing me sitting
meditate at the park, that wasone thing. And then just like

(41:10):
coming out there with doingyoga, and people like seeing me
doing it by myself, you know, inour community, looking like,
Okay, who is this guy? Theyhaven't seen me. They don't know
me, and they're looking at me.
And then next thing you know,Robert Sterman is out there
taking pictures of him. We'redoing yoga, and people getting
more curious, you know, nowsomeone's walking up to me and
say, Hey, how can I join this?

(41:33):
What it's going to cost me? Andthen I'm telling it's not going
to cost you, nothing. You know,people started being more open
to it. And then when we had theworkshop, people got so into it
to where, like, a couple ofpeople said, since that day,
I've started by exercising. Andthen now people ask me, Well,
when we do it every Saturday,are we going to do this? And I'm
like, Well, hold on a second.
That was just an introduction,you know, I got to work on, you

(41:56):
know, paying for a permit forsix months, paying for
insurance. You know, then I wasworking now, know when I can run
it. So, like I told him, I said,Hey, I'm trying to do this
right, because if I do thiswrong, people can be
discouraged. So I want to makesure we have a right schedule. I
have all paperwork done, workingwith the park as well. And it's

(42:18):
like more and more people arecalling me and excited about
being involved in it, andespecially that, you know, they
don't have to worry about payingto do it, because I think a lot
of people in our community wouldlove to do yoga, but any place
that they go, it's going to costthem, and people cannot afford
it to be able to do it. Yeah,I hear you, are you? I know that

(42:41):
this is your nonprofit. So I'mcurious, have you rejoined into
the workforce as a as a way ofgenerating revenue, or are you
focused solely right now on theyour nonprofit organization? No,
it's half and have like, I workfor Parsec at the railroads, so

(43:03):
I'm working at the railroads andI'm working with my nonprofit at
the same time. Nice. So I'mdoing both because I can't not
take care of myself, and I don'twant to have to use the
nonprofit money to take care ofmyself. I want to put it into
the things I want to do, intothe community. So I'm raising,
you know, little money here andthere, and, you know, people are

(43:26):
donating. So it's slow, but it'slike, it's grassroots. You know,
this is something that's goingto be built with the community.
I'm getting a scholarshipthrough prison yoga project so I
can get certified me and mycousin, so when I'm not able to
do it, she can do it as well. Soit's a slow process, but people

(43:48):
are really excited about it,and, you know, and just me
talking about them, it's goingto be a three phase thing. It's
going to be yoga and teachingabout yoga and breathing,
because so often we get angry,the first thing we do is hold
our breath. And yoga teachesjust how to breathe, to let it
out. So I want to go from yogato meditation, teach them how to

(44:11):
meditate, sit what's going onwith them and their life, and
this and that. And then thethird process would be, uh,
running healing circles. So thatwhole now that I'm talking to
him about that, and a lot ofthem say, Yeah, we do, because
we can hold a lot of resentmentsand unforgiveness, and it's
killing us from the inside out.
So that three prone process,people are really excited about

(44:32):
it nice. So just now working toget to that point.
Amazing. Have you had anycurrent gang members come to one
of your classes?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, wow, yeah. Afew of my friends of getting
involved in it and excited aboutdoing it. I mean, you know, when

(44:53):
you see someone change, thatused to be pretty well that was
really wild, and you see thecalmness and how they deal with
them. Now you want that, yeah,and like, I tell people, you
know, everything starts small,and then it grows. So the more
I'm able to offer it and havemore timing, I'm quite sure more
will come in, because I've beenhaving a lot of friends pass

(45:14):
away due to not taking care oftheir self, health wise. And so
this is one of the things I'mpushing. And, you know, being
able to get them to come out andget involved in it is a good
thing. And then everybody's upto it, it, because it's like,
who brings this to ourcommunity? Yeah, you know, and
be able to offer it, you know,without pay. So lot of people

(45:36):
are really, you know, interestedinto, into, oh, man,
you know, Mo, if I like, if Isit for in meditation, pose for
about like, say, 25 minutes orso, and I start having pain in
my back, in my knees, and I go,this is impossible. And then I
meet someone like you who hashad long term, you know,

(45:58):
practice with all this, I wouldmaybe be like, Wow, how can I
complain? You know, here I'mcomplaining, and I'm learning
from you, and you've beenthrough a really challenging and
very focused sort of experiencewith this. How do you navigate?
I mean, you are very relatable.
I feel like you're really easyto talk to. Do you have moments,
though, where people feel like,like, in awe of you, and you try

(46:24):
to bring it down more on ahumble mode, to encourage people
that they can do it too?
Yeah, because it's in all of us.
You know, calmness is in all ofus, but first we have to deal
with our issues. And that's themost important thing, is dealing
with it. But the most importantthing acknowledging that you
have these issues, and then youdon't want to deal with them,

(46:46):
you know? And just like when youwere speaking about being in
that position for a while, ittakes me back to James, and like
in the black community as well,African American community, I
think a lot of people arediscouraged about yoga because
they've heard bad stories aboutbad instructors. So yoga has
gotten a bad name an AfricanAmerican community, and that's
why I, like with James, healways taught us like a modified

(47:06):
position, you know, modify theposition to where it feels more
comfortable. And it's the samething with meditation. Everyone
is not able to sit Lotus. Youhave to switch up. So that's
like, in life, you know? That'sa life skill, like, Hey, I'm in
a discriminate I need to change,I need to modify this lifestyle

(47:28):
that I'm living to live a betterlifestyle. So it goes along with
meditation. It goes along withyoga. Great point,
amazing. Mo, what, as me, asmyself, as a yoga teacher, what
could or can I do to be a littlebetter about that? I feel like

(47:50):
you answered this questionalready being adaptable and
opening up opportunity forpeople to understand that they
can do something differently tomake it appropriate and
comfortable, and you had mademention that there is maybe a
bad stigma with, like, the superhigh power, fitness, fashion,
yoga industry. What advice wouldyou lend myself and or any other

(48:13):
yoga teacher out there that canhelp to kind of bridge this gap
between, like, what you said,where there's a negative
connotation around it,I think one, one thing I really
learned about a lot of thingsthat you know people want to
know you personally, and howyoga has helped you, you know so

(48:35):
like as an instructor, as youtelling them about different
positions and how this positionhelp you in a certain way, you
know. So you making it personal.
It's not like, I'm just tellingyou people tired of getting told
what to do. Tell me how you wentthrough something and how your
practice helped you, you know,created, you know. It's like,

(48:58):
you know, I, I love, uh, doingtwists, you know, and just
understanding, just just takinga bit inhale and then exhale as
you twist. How does that applyto you in life? You know what
I'm saying? How does likesomething going on, and you
taking a big head in hell andthen exhale, and just slowly

(49:20):
taking your time and dealingwith something or making a move
in this day and age whereeverything is so fast, we're
constantly moving fast, and likein yoga, we can talk about those
things as an instructor, to howyou can just take your time and
ease into the position, or easeout, or take that time and just

(49:40):
take a breath in, you know, andlet out a long exhale. When are
we doing that in our dailyactivities? We're not, we're
constantly moving. We're notholding, you know, we're holding
our breath, and we're not, youknow, being mindful what's going
on. And like you say, like wesay in yoga, like hard body of
mind, the. Average person areall three of those are scattered

(50:02):
in different places.
Yeah, great point. Yeah. Mo,what was your your last day in
prison, when you were next dayyou're going to be out, what did
that feel like? Were younervous? Were you overjoyed? Did
you have every emotion possible?
Did you feel calm? What? Whatwas that like on that last day?

(50:23):
I think I was, it was like acalmness, but then a bittersweet
because you live in a lot offriends that was in in prison
with You, and You know, theydepended on your friendship and
stuff like that, and so thatthat was one thing. But just
like, you know, it was acalmness just coming home into

(50:43):
this world. That's like after 26years, you know, you might have
did 26 years in the 70s and goton in the 80s. Nothing much
changed. 22 years from the 90sto come out in the 2000 it's a
whole nother world, technology,all of these things, everything
is moving forward. Fast. It's,it's like, it's totally

(51:05):
different. So it was like, a lotof Justin and understanding that
coming home and like an old guytold me long time ago, he's
like, Mo, use your eyes and earsa lot more than your mouth, and
you learn a lot and be morewise. So coming home with that
in mind, I knew I was cominghome, you know, I'm a father,

(51:25):
not to come home and tell peopleto do this, to this and that,
but to be observant ofeverything that's going on and
just watching things that'sgoing on. Yeah, crazy. And I
think that's really important,instead of just jumping right
into it? No, let me see what'sgoing on first. Oh,
man, and kudos for here we areusing technology. Was it

(51:49):
difficult to make that jump intoemail, text, social media?
Websites are do you feel likeyou're keeping up and confident
and in this, like, reintegrationprocess,
I think, like, that was, like,my biggest like, I was really
getting frustrated and, like,somewhat like full anxiety,

(52:12):
because every time I, like mykids, someone trying to teach
someone, it's always a password,there's a username. And it was,
like, it was really frustrating.
And then, like, my practicekicked in to where, like, I had
to just sit like, Okay, well, ifyou want to be successful, you
have to learn these things soyou can't continue to get
frustrated with it, because thisis a big change. You know,

(52:34):
nothing's written down. You goto DMV, I had to get on the
computer. Everything was like,on a computer. So once I had
that conversation and sat withmyself, I was like, Okay, so
when I had to do something else,and the first thing I had to do
using anything, I just took adeep breath, and I went along
with it nice. And that's what Ihad to do to where it became

(52:55):
normal. And then I think what,what it also is that, most
importantly, the willingness toask for help and people will
help you. And I think that's oneof the things as well. Being in
prison, you don't really like toask for help, but now coming
home, you have to ask for helpto be able to do things, and
people are really been graciousenough to help me with all I

(53:16):
need to do. Oh, amazing.
Wow, that's so cool to hear. Iknow it's like the fourth part
of the restorative justice iscollaboration, and on the
website, it says involves allstakeholders in the justice
process, including survivors,the who caught those who caused
harm, and community members. Onthis level, I'm really grateful

(53:39):
to have this opportunity tocollaborate with you. How, how
can I and or anyone listening,help you? What can I do to help
you? Because I think yourmission is so inspiring and
really positive and powerful,and I want to help. And I'm

(54:01):
curious what, what could I andor anyone listening do to assist
and help you?
Well, of course, you know, ifanyone is willing to to donate,
you know, go to the website andthey can donate. That would that
would be a plus. Or even someonehas something to offer, like,
you know, I want to get to thepoint to what we're doing
meditation. So I'm looking toget cushions, our foods to be

(54:24):
able to sit on to, you know,have all of these things there
for them to be able to practiceprison yoga. Project had donated
me yoga mats and some blocks aswell. So, like I said, I wanted
to be a three phase. So I wantedto teach them how to sit and
meditate. So I've looked atlike, you know, get questions
for them to sit on as well. Andyou know, I appreciate you, you

(54:47):
know, even bringing me on yourshoulder to put my story out
there, you know. And you know,just from hearing me, I just one
way people can help me is tojust understand people have
different life experience. Is,and we as a human race cannot
continue to give up on peopleyou know and believe in
retribution is what's going toresolve our differences, because

(55:09):
we all know someone who's beenaffected by crime or has
committed crime or using drugs,you know, in all communities.
And I look at it like if werealize that we are really
connected to one another andstart helping one another, then
we can resolve some of theseissues. So any way that they
feel though they can help, youknow, donate to my nonprofit, or

(55:34):
they have cushions they wouldlike to donate, or even
instructors who will be willingto come have a workshop, you
know, I would love to invitethem, you know, like I tell
people, yes, my nonprofit iscalled African American
community healing, but we are acommunity of the diversity. And
I think diversity is what helpspeople heal as well. You know,

(55:57):
being around different people,really understanding them, it's
really crucial. So I inviteanyone who was willing to want
to come and sit and do yoga withus, or like want to come teach
us about meditation. You know,I'm willing to bring them, have
them come and then that, andthat's one way to be supportive

(56:19):
of each other, just like, I'myou brought me on your show. So,
you know, that's a way of beingsupportive.
Oh, man, I appreciate that. Whenis your next class?
Well, right now, like, we didthe workshop, and, like, during
the week, I work out at thepark, and I'd like run little
sessions like, like on thebasketball court with a few

(56:39):
people, but people waiting onme, I'm looking at maybe the end
of January, because I'm ready,trying to raise the funds for
the insurance and the permit andget the right time. And so I
want to get it done by the endof January, coming into
February, have it like once aweek in the morning time at that

(57:01):
park. And so our park is notopen in the morning, so I have
to pay for one of the park staffto be there for an hour. So just
getting all of those logisticstogether, and it's coming
together now and then we can beup and going. But I would like
know anyone who's willing togive their time. Yeah, you want

(57:21):
to teach a class or teach, youknow, yoga or some meditation.
I'm openamazing, though. I can't I can't
wait. Well, next time I come upto California, I can't wait to
come and take one of yourclasses and come see what you're
putting together. It soundsabsolutely amazing. Mo, I'm
incredibly inspired by yourmessage and your journey. Is

(57:44):
there anything else that youfeel like we could close with? I
have so many I still have somany questions, but I want to be
respectful of your time, andmaybe we could do this again in
the future. And I really, I justfeel honored to have this
opportunity, and thank you somuch for being open with your

(58:04):
story and for trusting me withyour story too. That means so
much to me. I feel reallyhonored. Is there anything else
that you would like to add? Mo,just as a you know, final words
of encouragement or motivationfor for maybe any and all of us.

(58:28):
Well, I guess it goes back to myTED talk, and us as human beings
believing in each other. Youknow, people make bad choices,
but we can still believe inthem, to help them to turn their
lives around. And I think if westart wanting to believe in
people more and give themresources that they need to help

(58:50):
them to get to those points,that's what we all can do. And
it'd be very beneficial, youknow, in this day and age where
so many people talk down onpeople because they make bad
mistakes and bad choices. But ifwe start believing in each other
as human beings, we can makethis a better place and realize
that we're all connected. Allthese different communities are

(59:12):
connected, and, you know,they're suffering in all of our
communities, and we can resolveit together. And that's that's
the most important thing,yes, yeah. Mo, thank you so
much. I really appreciate it.
I appreciate you having me.
Thank you.

(59:36):
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(59:58):
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