June 16, 2025 • 62 mins
From global brands to grassroots startups, Kerry has carved out a dynamic career as a marketing strategist and founder of GAP., all while navigating life with late-diagnosed ADHD and Autism. In this episode, Kerry shares her journey of embracing neurodivergence, building a values-led business, and redefining success on her own terms.
Expect raw honesty, strategic gold, and plenty of laughs as we talk anxiety, unconventional pathways, and what it really takes to thrive as a neurodivergent entrepreneur in a high-performance world.
🎧 Listen to other episodes via Neurodivergent Mates → https://neurodiversityacademy.com/neu...
🎤 Podcast Questions:
Let’s start at the beginning – can you tell us about your career journey and how GAP. came to be?
What was it like receiving a late diagnosis of ADHD and ASD? How did that change how you saw your past experiences?
How has being neurodivergent shaped the way you approach strategy, creativity, and marketing?
You’ve worked with some major players like GE, Vodafone, and Plico — how did those environments support or challenge your neurodivergent brain?
You talk openly about anxiety and academic setbacks. How have those experiences influenced your leadership style?
What advice do you have for neurodivergent young people or aspiring entrepreneurs who feel like they don’t fit the traditional mould?
You call yourself a “growth junkie” — what does growth look like to you now, both personally and professionally?
Finally, if you could give one piece of advice to your younger self, what would it be?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates.
All right, welcome.
(00:25):
How is everyone today?
Um welcome to another episodeof neurodivergent mates.
I'm your host, will wheeler,and today I'm joined with my
special guest, carrie milne, totalk about becoming an audi hd
marketing expert.
Carrie, what's going on, myfriend?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
hello, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I'm very excited no problem, sorry, did I see that
you're a little bit nervous tomeet me and stuff?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I thought I saw on like your linkedin, you're like
I'm a little bit nervous to meetyou yeah, because I, I, um,
I've done a few podcasts but um,none quite as kind of um
serious, and um, well, I sayserious in that you're really
good at this and so yeah, I waslike oh my god.
But no, I think, probably lessnervous, because at least if I
(01:15):
go off on some tangent, you'llbe like oh yeah, that's expected
yeah, totally, totally, totally, don't be nervous or anything.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Honestly, like, um, and I think, like like, for
those of you who don't know, weactually sort of get on to the
podcast 15 minutes before itactually starts.
So it actually is a really goodway to just speak to the people
, calm their nerves, all of that.
By the time we're ready to sortof get in.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
It's like we've been talking for like forever, type
of thing if that makes sense,that's a good way to do it, for
sure.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yeah, totally, totally.
But look what we'll do beforewe do get started.
I'll just do a little bit ofhousekeeping all of that.
So if this is your first timelistening to us, please
subscribe, like and follow toall of our social media pages.
You can check us out on TikTok,facebook, instagram X, twitch,
(02:11):
youtube and LinkedIn and please,wherever you check out any of
your podcasts, please, on anyplatform, please subscribe,
follow us, do whatever you needto do to help us with the
algorithm to get us out there,and so forth.
Now please check out the workwe're doing with Neurodiversity
Academy.
You can check us out atneurodiversityacademycom.
Got heaps of really cool stuffon there coming up.
(02:33):
Got some really cool articles,some blogs that are coming out.
Gee, what else we got.
So many things I just keeplosing track of, but there will
be a lot more stuff coming outshortly, so please check out
that stuff there.
Now look tonight or today orwhatever it's still sort of
today in wherever you are overin WA, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Kerry, it is a little bit yeah, 4.30.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah yeah, and for our American listeners, right,
because we do have people fromall over the world listening
right.
So you know, or even peoplefrom the UK, australia has like
three time zones, just to get alittle bit of an idea of how big
Australia is.
So it's still like four.
(03:21):
And it was funny when I firstreached out to Kerry, I said to
her I said, look, look, do youwant to do this a little bit
later, because I know I'll onlybe 4 30 in the afternoon,
correct?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
yeah, that's it.
But uh, as we said, we'resaying before um, this is a
great time for me because I'mlike having my second kind of
energy burst, so yeah, totally,totally awesome, awesome,
awesome.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
But look, before we do move on, just a little bit of
a warning.
We like to do this and we maynot have any, um, real
hard-hitting stuff in the in theinterview today, but better to
um be prepared.
So a little bit of a warningsome uh discussions may be
triggering.
If you need help, please reachout to a loved one or call
emergency services.
We are not doctors.
This is a space for sharingexperiences and strategies.
(04:07):
Now, for anyone who might belistening to us live at the
moment, please feel free toshoot through any questions or
even just interact with us asmuch as you'd like.
Um, so just put it into thecomments on whatever platform
you're watching us on at themoment, and if it's a good
question, uh, we'll put it up onthe site.
(04:28):
If it's a I know, a bit of ashit question, we'll probably
not put it up, yeah, but um, weshould be able to go with that
there so questions only yeah,yeah, yeah, totally, totally,
totally.
So, carrie, so you, you ready torock and roll, my friend, let's
do it.
You're born ready, right?
All right, okay, cool, let'sstart with the beginning.
(04:50):
So can you tell us a bit sorry?
Can you tell us about yourcareer journey and how Gap came
to be?
So Gap is your business, am Icorrect?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
That's it.
Yeah, so Gap is my businessthat I started about seven years
ago.
How that came to be is a veryit was a total mistake.
If I think back to school, Ihad no idea what I wanted to be
when I grew up because I justwas so stressed about actually,
(05:25):
you know, getting past thegraduation of school.
I think the most visual memoryI have of what I wanted to be
when I grew up was JohnFarnham's Backup Singer.
I was 100%.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah, I was 100%.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, I had those moves, man.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Like the Johnny.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Farnham, yeah, but apart from that, I just knew
that I wasn't very smart, or atleast that's what I thought.
So the only things that I everreally aspired to be were things
that I had seen people in mylife you know like teachers or
you know pilots or whatever, andthat, yeah, it was kind of no
(06:13):
real drive to do anything inparticular, although I knew that
I needed to be successful.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
So what was school like for you?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
out of curiosity, Awful, it was a complete yeah.
I have no nice memories ofschool because I knew from a
very young age that I was, youknow, I was dumb, I couldn't
read properly, I couldn'tremember things that we learnt
(06:44):
in class.
I was dumb, I couldn't.
I couldn't read properly, Icouldn't remember things that we
learnt in class.
I was extremely compliant andso I wasn't loud, so much as
naughty, but I would participatein, you know, discussions and
whatnot and be quite whatnot andbe quite um.
You know my, mine was thereport card that said um, kerry
(07:07):
is a fantastic um student tohave in class, but she needs to
try harder for tests and exams.
Well, I was never going to beable to pass a test or an exam,
um, but my undiagnosed adhd andautism and dyslexia was, you
know, completely a mystery atthat stage.
(07:28):
And in the 80s and 90s girlsdidn't get ADHD.
Really by didn't get it.
I mean we didn't get, certainlydidn't get.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Like, identified as being that.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
No, identified as being that.
No, um, I was.
I think I got diagnosed asdyslexic in year nine, which
over here is I would have been13, um, and uh, the the kind of,
yes, she's got severe dyslexia,um, which even that we didn't
really know what it meant, um,but it was sort of you need to
(08:07):
study harder, um, and so my mumwould get you know, my mum would
get the the report card thatsays Kerry just needs to apply
herself more.
And my poor mum said the exactsame thing mum would be like
well, you need to apply yourselfmore mom knew, because mom had
got me a maths tutor, she'd gotme an english tutor.
(08:28):
She knew that on weekends Iwould study, I would do my
assignments and all that sort ofthing.
Like I was such a good, goodkid because I didn't want to let
anybody down, um, the peoplepleaser, uh.
But then when she'd get thisreport card, she's just like
something's wrong and and toanswer your question, the really
long way around, that was justa massive driver of anxiety for
(08:53):
me.
I had severe anxiety fromprobably the age of nine or ten,
um, and I just spent my entiretime at school thinking why
can't I be like everybody else?
Why am I so?
Speaker 1 (09:11):
dumb, why can't I just get this?
Why do I?
You know, you know, I rememberI used to like hit my head like
why can't you get this?
Because I don't know about you,but I would get like I would
have to stay in at lunchtime andjust sit there, looking at a
piece of paper, thinking I haveno idea what this means mine
would start from the moment, orit start on a Sunday night.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I would just get like all kinds of anxious um.
And then every morning, fromwhen we would leave home to the
when mum would drop us at thebus stop, which was, like you
know, eight minutes or somethingdrive, I would just be crying
(09:54):
every single morning.
And I think I say to my mumfrequently you poor thing, I
knew that you had to then go andwork, you know, and like you're
dropping this kid off that'sbeen crying, and she said, oh,
it was heartbreaking.
And she said but what was worsewas when you thought that you
were trying to hide.
When you got a bit older, youthought that you were trying to
(10:15):
hide the fact that you werecrying because you didn't want
to upset me, and I was like, oh,I remember that.
So, yeah, I like school washard.
And then the fact that I thinkI was good at sport, though,
which I've heard you talk about.
How you know, sport was a thingfor you and, thank goodness.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Totally.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, I didn't.
As I got older, I didn't haveto worry about who was I going
to eat my lunch with.
Did I have to eat lunch in thetoilets?
Because I could go and findsome like there would be
something on at lunchtime thatwas sport related.
And then I found myselfcoaching younger kids.
So coaching younger kids innetball or basketball or
(10:59):
volleyball, swimming, whateverit might be and I think that is
where I started to enjoy schoolmore, because there was
something that was giving me abit of Can I?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
A bit of drive and all of that.
Can I just say that this is abig thing that I sort of picked
up with sport when I was younger.
Now, actually, I used to playvolleyball not long ago.
I just can't find a goodvolleyball place to play down
here in Sydney, but that's awhole other story.
But the thing that I found,especially with sport when I was
(11:36):
like a teen, or you know, inprimary school and a teenager,
all of that was it was sort ofweird because in school like
like what I mean in school, likemaths and English and subjects
like that I was reallystruggling.
I felt really, really dumb, allof those types of things.
But then when I'd get on ontothe sports field, I was
(11:58):
unstoppable and I didn't feeldumb.
Then, do you know what I mean?
And in my head I would oftenthink to myself I don't know.
It was a weird feeling becauseI'm like, I don't feel dumb.
I especially when I would belike scoring like heaps of
points or hitting home runs orwhatever that was, and like
(12:19):
running rigs around other people.
And it was a weird feelingbecause it's like you're made to
feel dumb, but here it's likeI'm not, it's like I'm the smart
person.
Yeah, well, you were 100% makessense.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
And I think, um, you know, when you and I've chatted
before, it's like, uh, I was, Ibecame a coach of younger kids
and then I was fairly good atsort of netball and volleyball
and that meant that I went on to, you know, represent the state
and, you know, on my weekendclub I was a captain, and so
(13:03):
there's these sort of leadershipthreads that were coming
through that I'd never reallyrealized until, uh, later in
life.
Um, and so when you say youfelt like you were unbeatable or
you felt like you were thesmart one, you were because you
were connecting dots, that thepeople that were sitting next to
you in maths who were literallyprobably connecting dots, but
(13:26):
you know, formulas and stuff orwhatever english um, they
couldn't do what you could doand yeah and that is because you
know you would have had likethat.
Um, you know what sport were youplaying?
Oh, gee, uh afl I would playbaseball you know yeah well, I I
(13:56):
was.
I'm not very tall, but I hadthis reputation, um, for being a
very, very good defender, and Inow know that that's because I
could like micro body language.
I could read when someone wasabout to like throw it in a
particular, throw the netball ina particular way and I'd
(14:17):
intercept it um, fascinating,like on reflection.
But yeah, so, um, I ended up,uh, going through um getting the
lowest score of anybody in myyear in Western Australia to get
into university.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Um, how'd that make you feel uh, I just was relieved
.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Actually, I had nothing, nothing other than
being relieved.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Um well, that you got the lowest score that I got in,
oh, that you got even with it.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Oh, okay, okay, because I was going to get into
university, oh yeah, because Igot the lowest op you can get oh
right, well, there you go Imean so like that was.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
And then the weirdest thing was I didn't tell anyone,
but everyone knew.
I was like how the hell doeseveryone know I've got the
lowest score.
You know what?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
So that was a hard thing to take as well.
That's tough, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I have no idea.
I don't know if certain peoplein the school let people know
and then it's gotten out.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
I have no idea, but that knocked me for a long time.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
That's nasty, yeah, but you know what.
You know what's funny?
I actually found my certificateand it says OP25000000 for all
of my like classes, all of that,and I think once, like the
business takes off, and all ofthat, I'm going to get that
(15:45):
framed and put on the wall.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Do you know what I mean?
It's the best feeling.
I came across mine last year, myhigh school reports, and there
was this one teacher inparticular that just had like,
was not interested in me.
I think in her mind I was a badreflection of her.
Um, like everybody else in, itwas chemistry and physics as
(16:12):
well.
I think I don't even know how Igot into the class, but um, she
was.
She would have my mum on thephone or down at the school,
like once every couple of weeks,just saying Kerry needs to like
, she needs to keep up, and mumwould be, she's got a tutor.
I know that she's doing thework and this teacher just had
no interest, no empathy, nolevel of kind of you know.
(16:37):
Is there a different way thatwe could, you know, do this?
But that was the entire schoolsystem and I think to a degree
probably is still you know yeahthere's the box, and if you
don't fit into it, neatly, we'lljust shove you in there and you
can figure it out while you'rethere.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
I think as well that, like from what I've picked up
or what I picked up after school, that there was some good
teachers where I went right, butthe ones who I had problems
with, they just didn't want todeal.
You know, they just wanted todeal with the easy kids, right,
I was more work for them, right.
So, rather than you know it.
(17:18):
So it was more work for them.
So they're like oh, but this isa pain in the ass, you know,
and that's what I noticed a lotof the time.
But the teachers who took theextra time with me and helped me
to grow and develop, itprobably was easier for them in
the long run because once theygot me to a certain point, I was
probably a really good student.
(17:38):
Yeah, and that's what peopledon't realise.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, and I think you know I've got, obviously I've
got um nephews and friends withum kids that are school age and
whatnot and and there's adefinite um sort of scale on, uh
, a, the level of understandingthat teachers have and, b, the
(18:01):
level of understanding thatschools have and therefore what
their approach to you know,different kinds of learning and
kids in their class.
Yeah, there was none of that inmy day but it was a very, very
long time ago.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, totally, when I think back, that's like 25, 26
years ago or so Let me just sayit out loud yeah.
Yeah, totally, totally, totally, totally, totally.
For me, anyway, oh shit, okay,fair enough, but hey, let's move
on.
So some really awesome stuffthere, but you know what was it
like and we'll play better.
(18:37):
Click onto the thing here sowhat was it like receiving a
late diagnosis for adhd and asd?
Um, how did that change?
How you saw the part, your pastexperience?
Now I know for myself.
I was diagnosed with ADHD onlygee, I think five years ago now.
Or dyslexia was like the bigthing back in, like when I was a
(18:59):
kid but, yeah, had no ideauntil like five years ago.
What was that like to you?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
um it was.
Firstly, it was this massive umrevelation and like someone had
handed me the manual that I'dnever been given for my life and
I'd actually just been tryingto use the manual that you know
every neurotypical had beenhanded and I couldn't work out
(19:28):
why it wasn't working because Iwas trying so damn hard all the
time.
Um, so, from that perspective,it was so um liberating in a way
, because I was just like, oh myGod, it's not me, I'm not dumb,
I'm not hard work, you know,I'm not.
(19:50):
All of the things insert kindof like naughty person, annoying
person here.
So I think I have.
I'm only on year, I think thisis the third year and I'm going
to be 50 in a couple of months.
I was 40.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Oh, happy birthday.
Oh yeah, Are you having a bigparty?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I'm not having a big party, but I'm going to go.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Come to Sydney.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Run away from a big party.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I'm going to Singapore, oh Singapore, big
party.
I'm going to Singapore, ohSingapore.
Yeah, that'll be all right.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
I'm going to do the Grand Prix over there.
Oh wow, that would be unreal.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
I would love to.
It looks like it not, but it ispretty humid over there who do
you?
Go for in the F1?
.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
I'm massive, massive Oscar and Lando.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
They're doing well, aren't they?
Speaker 2 (20:48):
You can't get past Max.
He's just such a unique fella.
I love it.
And I find myself looking atthese guys thinking, yep, you're
definitely like.
You know, you've got someneurodivergence in you for sure.
Like just you know that wholelike super, super hyper focus.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
I don't know if it's if it's true or not, but like
with lando norris, like yeahlike I'm connected with his
father on linkedin and hisfather is dyslexic wow yeah,
yeah, yeah.
I don't know if lando is, sothat's you know, but I know from
talking with his father.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
I know he's dyslexic and he's quite open with that,
so there could be a possibility.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Yeah, I look at some of those guys because they're
like oh, I wasn't a good studentat school and I'm like oh yeah,
interesting, so you went intorace car driving.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, you weren't really hyper-focused on
something that you werepassionate about.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Totally, totally, totally.
Oh, that should be prettyawesome.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
The other thing that happened when I was diagnosed
was I am quite ashamed, I think,to say that I really didn't
have a level of awareness orunderstanding about ADHD before
I was diagnosed.
Only that I knew that it was a,you know, I knew that it was a
(22:13):
challenging thing to have askids and my cousins, my cousins'
cousins, you know, but theywere all boys that had it, and
so it was just like naughty boys.
I had no concept of things likerejection, sensitivity,
dysphoria, time, blindness.
(22:33):
I never knew that was a thing.
You know, all of these thingslike that drive a level of
anxiety, like executive function, impulsivity.
I just I had no concept of anyof that.
So when I started to learn aboutit, I just it was all of these
oh my God moments, oh, is thatright?
(22:55):
And so there's a level ofsadness, I think as well, like
grief that came with therealisation that I had spent
most of my life just trying tofit in and be compliant and
successful and never really feltlike myself, like never really
(23:16):
knew who I was, because I alwaysfelt like I was trying to mark
like you know, I'd markedsomeone as being a role model,
who I needed to be like and it'slike be like that person.
And so, you know, enter theworld of masking and mirroring,
where we're really good at.
You know, there's that memethat says, oh my god, I feel
like I've known you forever.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
It's like, yes, that's because I'm completely
mirroring and like masking andmirroring your personality do
you know, what I sort of foundlike when I look back before I
was diagnosed is that I wouldput myself in certain situations
where it wasn't really good forme.
(23:57):
So let's say, um, all myfriends were going out to a
nightclub or a pub or whateverlike that.
I'd get there and I'd be like,oh my god, like sensory overload
, I need to start drinking justto try and calm down right.
And then I'd be like blackoutdrunk, like you know, everywhere
(24:17):
, um, and I used to think why doI get like this?
No one else does you know.
Now I look at it, I'm like, ohmy god, I was using that as a
coping mechanism to deal withthat type of.
But now if someone goes, heyWill, do you want to go into
this noisy pub or what I'm like?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
take me the fuck away from there you know what I mean
but like I think that's theliberating part, and um, I was
having this actual exactconversation with somebody
yesterday about someone said oh,um, are you like you would have
taken drugs when you were, youknow, in your 20s and 30s?
And I was like, yeah, likeeverybody did and they're like
(25:00):
well, hang on.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Well, because I thought everyone did the same.
Yeah, true.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Well, but the point was I said, oh, but I have been
drinking since I was a teenager,and exactly what you were
saying was that I knew that if Iwas going to a place where
there were going to be a load ofpeople, the only way that I
(25:24):
could a feel like I wanted to bethere and b not get completely
overwhelmed by all of the thingsum was to start drinking like
two hours beforehand.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
so I was only right by the time you got in there and
then you're like and it wasalmost like all right, this is
going to help me to be able tointeract with people and things
like that.
I'm not going to be able to doit otherwise exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
And now if someone says, like you know, I talk
about it online a lot, but it'sthe whole sort of yeah, come to
a networking event with us.
It's like absolutely not.
I would rather stick a pin inmy eye thank you.
Because by the time I've walkedin, I can hear the lights
buzzing, I can smell the carpetthat's just been cleaned, I can
(26:17):
like hear 45 individualconversations.
I can hear like someonerustling a plastic bag.
That's like getting cups out of, like it's like no that's
interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
That is interesting because for me I love networking
events, but I do like to havelike not get wasted at a
networking event because it'snot really doesn't look really
good, but having a few drinksjust to calm the nerves a little
bit, because and plus, I don'tlike going to a networking event
if I don't know certain peoplethere, because at least if I
(26:53):
know certain people I can belike oh hey, there's carrie, hey
, what's going on blah blah, hey, hey, what's going on?
Hey, blah, blah, blah, blahblah.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Hey, hey, what's going on, hey, blah, blah, blah,
blah.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
And then build off from there type of thing.
Yeah, that's interesting fromyour perspective because you've
got like different sensories.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
That are in there, yeah, and I can't concentrate.
I actually really do lovegetting to know people and I
love hearing people's story, butin that kind of environment I
can't concentrate.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
I do know what you mean about hearing all the
different conversations and it'slike you have to go.
What did you say, man?
Right, you know what I mean,but yeah, no, that's interesting
.
That's interesting, hey, so outof curiosity.
So hang on.
What do we have?
Okay, so, moving on from thatone, how has being
(27:46):
neurodivergent shaped the wayyou approach strategy,
creativity and marketing?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Well, I think if you'd have asked me this
question without theneurodivergent piece a few years
ago, like, why am I so good atit, I would purely have thought
that it was because, um, I wasso well I was, I'm always really
well prepared, like, I willalways do the research, I'll
(28:13):
always, you know, look for thethreads in their insight, I'll
I'll go into the, the data, andso all of that is true.
But the neurodivergent aspectof that is what makes me able to
do that, which is, you know,pattern recognition, hyper focus
, the idea that, like, I used tothink that the word creativity
(28:35):
meant like artistic, likedrawing, but this concept that
creativity is actually justabout problem solving in a way
that is different.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Totally, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Like it's a new way of solving the problem right,
and the reason I can do that isbecause I have this amazing
ability to see parts of aproblem that are connected in
some way that no one else wouldreally make sense of, and from
(29:10):
that it's definitely it gives mean edge because I can do it
really quickly If someone comesto me and says oh, we've got, we
need to send some emails, we'relike low on leads.
Try saying that fast Low onleads, Um, and I'd go.
I'm okay, Cool, what?
(29:32):
Um?
Ask a few clarifying questionsLike what do you, um, what are
you saying in your sales andwhat have you got out in the
market already?
And what becomes very apparentis they don't need marketing or
email to start with.
They need to clarify what it isthat they're like, what problem
they're solving.
So I think the neurodivergentaspects of what I do is just it
(29:59):
allows me to remember what I'veseen before and apply it to
different businesses anddifferent scenarios, and it also
allows me to be super, superempathetic, which is what
marketing needs to be right.
You need to be thinking aboutsolving a problem in the shoes
of your audience, and so nothingsays empathy like a
(30:25):
neurodivergent empath.
So we're very good atidentifying exactly what is the
insight here.
And then how can you put thatinto some kind of strategy that
says you Will are uniquelyqualified or uniquely positioned
to solve a problem for thatclient?
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah, no, awesome.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
The sales aspect.
I think you know I nearlyfailed school, but then I
realised I was really good atselling when I started to sell
shoes and it's like how, how didI know how to do that?
Because I was reading again.
I was like reading people,listening to what they were
saying.
Oh, I really like chalk heelswith a you know leather upper
(31:11):
and a whatever, whatever forwinter.
And I realised that if I couldgive them three versions of
something that met theircriteria, they would feel so
like.
They just feel so validated andvalued and often buy two pairs
(31:33):
instead of one, and that wasjust the best thing ever.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
I think that's so interesting because, like you
know, you and I think it's notmy perception, but you often
hear what people's perception of, say, an autistic person, um,
is right, um, and putting theminto a situation where they have
to sell shoes, that can't bedone, type of thing, um, and I
(31:59):
just think it's so.
Um, you couldn't.
What's the word I'm looking for?
You can't judge a book by itscover, type of thing.
Uh, type, if I'm pretty surethat was what I'm looking for,
because like everyone has their.
Every neurodivergent personbrings their own unique
strengths and weaknesses, ofcourse, but it's interesting how
(32:23):
it all can flow into each other.
Now the reason why I share that.
I was speaking to a mother of aneurodivergent child, say, a
few months ago now, and she'stalking about how her son will
never get a proper job, he'llnever be out, all he'll ever do
is just pack boxes in awarehouse.
All of this and I'm thinking,geez man, this kid hasn't got it
(32:47):
.
You know, his mom's not reallybehind him, but then she's
talking about how he's brilliantat what do you call it debating
?
Brilliant at debating, he'slike head of the debating club
and all of this.
I'm like what?
That is like an incredibleskill to have negotiation.
(33:08):
Totally, totally.
That could make you millions ofdollars and like this is the
thing.
I think like, yeah, why can'twhat?
Why aren't people looking at, Ithink, what's happening?
Especially if we're going backto school and thinking about
stuff like that people lookingat what we're getting on paper
rather than looking at the lifeskills and going, damn man, you
(33:29):
should actually look at this.
Have you thought about maybedoing this, because this would
flow in really well with yourdebating stuff for sure, and I
think it's it is.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
I get really sort of um frustrated when I hear
conversations like that and thatthey're still happening to that
degree today, and I know thatthey are.
But I think you, you knowthere's so many layers to that
and you know, peel back the uhyou what the parents want the
(34:01):
child to be, sort of thing, andthat's a whole level of thinking
and expertise I don't have,albeit I've got lots of opinions
.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Yeah, can I say on that right, it probably comes
from the school itself because,know, when I was in school,
right, um, my parents were toldfrom the school will's never
going to be able to do this,he's never going to be able to
do that.
Now, everything that I was toldI'd never achieve, I'm probably
(34:34):
achieving that plus more.
Now.
Do you know what mean?
Speaker 2 (34:38):
I know exactly what you mean.
Yeah, mum says that in year 12I got glandular fever and I was
off school for 10 weeks orsomething.
I was really sick and it waslike the school were like, oh,
this is maybe a good idea, agood opportunity to tell her mum
(34:58):
that she needs to repeat.
And mum said you know, I knewwhat your thoughts on that would
be, as in my thoughts.
And she said I just said tothem oh, I'll mention it to
Kerry and if she wants to dothat, then I think she'll find a
way to you know catch up.
I think she'll find a way toyou know catch up.
(35:24):
But in a world where you knowyour parents really do rely on
the school to be experts how canyou, how can we expect you know
, how can we expect parents tonot believe what the school is
saying?
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah, no, you're dead
right.
You're dead right.
I think that, like, um, that'swhat I've picked up, you know,
from you know, seeing what myexperience was like and then how
I've turned out and everything,and it's sort of like and in a
way, like that parent sharingthat about, um, her son.
(35:54):
You know she's not wrong, right, but like she sort of is.
But like what I'm sort ofgetting at is that's what she's
been told do you?
know what I mean and I know withneurodiversity academy.
This is why we're doing and I'mdoing a bit of a plug here um
our webinar events, all of thatto try and help parents to go
hey, this is what's happened tous.
(36:16):
These are some other pathwaysyou can take if you've got these
issues happening and so forththere.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
I'm glad you did the plug because I was about to,
because the very first, I thinkthe very first kind of fangirl
message I sent to you was I sentto you was yeah, was you know a
(36:48):
message that had maybe Alexfrom the ADHD chatty?
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the guy from the UK right
.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yes, yes, guy from the uh, the uk, right, yes, yes,
and he was talking about um.
He was actually talking about,uh, how neurodivergent kids in
schools is actually.
It's actually just traumabuilding.
That's.
All that's happening is we'rejust building trauma for kids
for all the reasons that you andI sit here today to say, oh, I
(37:19):
was told I was dumb, I was nevergoing to amount to anything,
and you know, our parents didthe best that they could by sort
of helping us manoeuvre throughthat.
But the very first thing that Isaid to you ever, I think, was
I just wanted to say thank youfor what you're working on,
because you're changing thelives of kids who are going to
(37:43):
find out that there there's analternative being smart school
smart is not what defines yourfuture, and I well, you've got
life smart and you got schoolsmart.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
I'd prefer to be life smart, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
That's way more valuable for sure, and you know
I I look at people that I wentto school with and they didn't.
I have not, absolutely, youknow, no um negative thoughts
towards them themselves, but Ijust look at you know you were,
you were very much comparedagainst the person that you sat
next to right, and I've gone onto do incredible things,
(38:24):
different things, a lot of itbecause I was trying to prove,
you know, that I was smart and Icould be successful.
But I've worked all around theworld.
I've built businesses, I'vebuilt brands, I've been part of
global teams.
I've done so many amazingthings.
It doesn't sound like someonewho was dumb in high school.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
And I think that might flow in well to the next
question here.
Actually, now you've workedwith some major players, so GE,
vodafone and.
Pilco.
How did those environmentssupport or challenge your
neurodivergent brain?
So you've sort of shared alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yes, how was?
Speaker 1 (39:02):
that for you.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
I think probably, except for GE.
Yeah, I mean maybe GE andVodafone, but for a lot of that
time I and I really was justmasking, I was trying to
(39:24):
continually be sure that Iwasn't going to get found out.
Don't let them find out thatyou're dumb but I was really
good at what I did, right.
So one of the reasons I wasreally good and this is probably
more relevant to your previousquestion, but my brain works
almost in components, and sowhat that means is that I can
(39:48):
build frameworks and likesystems, and that's how I can
see the.
The, the dots that have beenconnected before is because I
it's the pattern aspect of itand so I became quite senior,
quite young, because I was ableto do things and learn things
quickly, um, and then when I gotinto some of those big um
(40:10):
businesses that you've got there, uh, the, the sort of what I
was able to learn wasunbelievable.
It was on a global scale, butthe I guess the trade-off from
that was I was in offices.
I was, I would be in early andleave late, because for the
(40:32):
entire time that everybody elsewas in the office, I would get
nothing done.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
I'd just be out of my body.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Yeah, um, and I think , um meetings, you know.
I mean, I worked in banking fora really long time and never
banking and insurance never havethere been more meetings in one
industry than in thoseindustries, like you know.
I'd go for weeks just havingback to
(40:59):
back-back-to-back-to-backmeetings and then I'd be
completely overwhelmed and stayup till you know 2 am or
whatever to get the work donethat I should have been getting
done when I was sitting at mydesk for an hour.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Yeah, yeah, crazy, crazy.
You said you were overseas fora while.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
yeah, yeah, so I was in the UK and then in.
I've worked all over.
I worked in um Italy, in the UKand um I was in Melbourne for
six years.
So, um, yeah, I have done theuh escape from Perth and um back
again.
But yeah, I think what thatallowed me to do though all of
(41:43):
those things allowed me to dowas what I do now, really,
really well, because I can takethe, the kind of principles that
I learned around efficiency andproductivity and marketing
strategy and research andinsights and that sort of thing,
and apply them to eitherstartup businesses or scaling
(42:07):
businesses, but only in a waythat translates for them, you
know, only in a way that'snecessary um for that particular
phase of their business.
So we're not putting in massivetech stacks or anything, but we
might actually remove somewaste by, you know, putting in a
(42:28):
um, a better process for a um,an inquiry, new sales inquiry,
for example yeah, no, cool.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Sounds like you're um all over and definitely heaps
of awesome skills that you wouldhave been able to build to to
be what you are now.
But, like you were talkingabout before, you talk openly
about anxiety and academicsetbacks.
How have those experienced yourinfo?
Sorry, how have thoseexperiences influenced your
(42:58):
leadership style?
Because I can tell you formyself, I'm very empathetic
towards a lot of people nowbecause it's like man, I can see
this person struggling.
Why are they struggling?
What can I do to help, ratherthan like, hey, pick your shit
up, man, what the hell's goingon, you know?
Speaker 2 (43:17):
um for sure, like I talk about anxiety and also sort
of you know anything related toneurodivergence or anything
that's you know what do theycall it A comorbidity?
So OCD or depression, whateverit might be and I talk about it
because I can.
(43:38):
Now I went for a very long time, um, where I didn't feel like I
could talk about it, becausethat was just.
That would be a kink in myarmor right, that that whole
narrative that I had about beingdumb.
Imagine then if I started totalk about the fact that I
struggled with anxiety or youknow anything else that you know
(44:00):
.
In my mind that would have beenlike, oh yeah, they'd be like I
told you.
So I knew there was somethingwrong with her.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Um, so how long did it take you to, how long did it
take you to be comfortable withbeing open, out of curiosity?
Speaker 2 (44:13):
I think I started talking about mental health when
I left corporate, so that wouldbe seven years ago um, and the
ADHD aspect ADHD and autismprobably took me a year.
I didn't tell anybody for sixmonths after I was diagnosed
because I never expected I wasgoing to get diagnosed.
(44:35):
So I had like that kind ofimmediate shame and then the
immediate like the grief forthat poor kid that was crying
every day.
I had like that kind ofimmediate shame and then the
immediate like the grief forthat poor kid that was crying
every day, you know, on the wayto school, like that poor child
that thought she was dumb andwas worried about people not
(44:55):
liking her and worried aboutletting her parents down and
worried, worried, worried.
And actually there was nothingwrong with her.
She was different.
There's a huge level of I thinkyeah, like a sort of grieving
process that I went through, andthen anger, you know, I think I
(45:17):
always say I want all of mytherapy money back.
I want my divorce money back.
I want my you know all of the Iback.
I want my divorce money back.
I want my you know all of the Iwant my business relationships
paid for yeah, yeah, yeah yeah,there was actually something
here that no, no one suggested.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Um yeah, so yeah but it's actually interesting
because, like I think, somepeople approach it a lot
differently to others.
Like when I got diagnosed withmy ADHD, I was already in the
neurodiversity space doing whatI'm doing, right.
So it was sort of like, yeah,all right, cool.
(45:55):
Another thing to tick off but Ithink that's what a lot of
people don't realize is that youknow, and I haven't met a a
person who had been speaking toon social media for a while, and
we met up for coffee the otherday and she's like, oh, I'm this
and that and um, you know, shejust said she's not comfortable
being open with it yet.
And you know what that's.
(46:16):
That's cool.
You know, I think everyoneapproaches things in their own
way and when they're comfortable, um, to want to share it, maybe
they never want to share it.
That's cool as well.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
I do feel like I have a responsibility to talk about
it and I think that every time Ido share something that's, you
know, I don't know quitepersonal or whatever, or maybe
even like just that little bitmore taboo-ish than the usual
(46:50):
not the usual, I'm not beingdismissive, but you know, I
think mental health, in terms ofanxiety and depression, we're
probably getting used to seeinga little bit of that now.
But you know, when I um postedabout um adhd paralysis last
week, um, I just you know thewhole concept that we want to do
(47:11):
the task but we can't likewe're literally paralyzed, um,
and that gets we can think aboutit in here.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
We're like, yeah, man , it feels good.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
I really want to wash my hair.
I know that I'll like itafterwards.
I desperately want to wash it,can I know?
But I had like four peoplemessage me after that saying I
can't tell you how much it meansto me that you, you know, you
talk about the real stuff.
It's not just the high level,it's like what this actually
(47:42):
means and you and so every timeI do that and I get that
feedback it's probably, you know, like you, but on a lower
degree, but it's like you knowthat you, you know you have to
keep doing it, but you have to,I have to keep talking about it,
because there are so manypeople that are quiet and can't
talk about it, not comfortabledon't know how, whatever, yeah
(48:05):
the thing that I and I've sharedthis on the podcast before is
that, especially when I feltlike when I first was like going
out there and promotingneurodiversity, all of that type
of stuff neurodiversity wasstill only very, very like not
spoken about, like tiktok wasn'tbig, all you didn't have like
(48:28):
all of these like uh influencesthat we have now all
Speaker 1 (48:32):
of that type of stuff .
So I'd be going in to um, uh,dni events and being going on
this and that and the looks I'dget from people, it was like it
was like crushing right and likeI think the thing that really
helped me was like okay well,I'm not actually doing this and
(48:56):
this is what sort of drove me tocontinually do what I'm doing.
I'm not doing this for me.
I'm doing it for the people I'mrepresenting Absolutely.
You know what I mean.
So that's where I'm like I'vegot to be open about this and
now I'm starting to see likeit's honestly like the amount of
(49:16):
change I've seen within thisindustry.
I don't know if you call it anindustry, but a community or
whatever you want to call itright in industries, you can
probably say it's skyrocketingcompared to what
Speaker 2 (49:32):
it used to be which is good, and you know like
people laugh at the wholeconcept of TikTok, but I can
tell you that I was in therapyfor 30 years easily 30 years.
I have learned more about my.
I did all of the therapies.
I did the DBT, the CBT, thething whatever.
(49:54):
I did the schemers, I did them.
I learned more about myself.
I have learnt more about myselfin two and a half years on
TikTok than I did that entiretime, because what I have come
to understand is that I'm notweird.
I am weird, but I'm weird likea billion other people.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Weird in a good way.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
That validation is like I don't have to try and fit
in anymore, like and and when,the whole thing around.
Um, you know, I'd wear a whitejumper or a new shirt, a new
clean shirt or whatever, and I'dalways spill my black coffee on
it and I'd get completelymocked.
You know, in one of my um oldworkplaces they'd be like, oh,
(50:41):
how long before she spills hercoffee and it's like ha-ha.
And then, you know, you comeacross the TikTok video and it's
like, yeah, we have spatialawareness issues.
We can't, we don't actuallyrealise how far or close things
are.
And just even and I haven'tgone back and said, oh, by the
way, that was my brain, butit's- like oh, by the way, that
(51:06):
was my brain.
Oh, that's pretty okay, wellthat's amazing that other people
do that all the time, yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
So yeah, it was actually interesting when I was
growing up because, like mybrother's, neurodivergent as
well, but him and I werecompletely different, like I'm
pretty sure he's like dyspraxicand like he'd be all over the
place and all of this.
I'd be like ah you idiot andyou know.
But like um, now I look at it,I'm like, ah, that's what that
(51:32):
is, or you know what I mean?
I can notice, because we'rejust completely different yeah,
it's fascinating, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (51:39):
And even just like girls versus boys, you know the
internalising that girls woulddo to.
You know that was completelystruggling, but you didn't want
to say, hey, I'm strugglingbecause you just had to be good,
(52:01):
like, just do the thing, likejust well, just it's actually
interesting when I speak to alot of my um, uh, female
neurodivergent friends and umtalk to.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
It's really interesting that neurodivergent
people were very open aboutanything, like some of the
conversations that um if I wasto have with like at a normal
workplace or something.
I'd probably be ousted, youknow stuff like that.
But it's been interesting whenspeaking to especially females
on certain topics as well andgoing oh, as a male, this is
(52:39):
when some of them have been likeoh yeah, like, this is how I
feel and I'm like oh my God, Iwould never have picked, that
you know.
But yeah it is quite interesting, but I don't think of it as
like weird.
I think to myself, shit, I'mweird.
But then I speak to these samepeople.
I'm like, oh shit, we're justthe same.
Speaker 2 (53:04):
Yeah, I'm like like I'm just I'm having a phase of
leaning into the whole weirdthing.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
I don't know why I maybe I've picked up on other
people talking about it's normal, really.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
Yeah, it's just like you know, it's always been there
, the.
The classic for me in terms ofwhat you were just talking about
, um, is when people say oh mygod, you're such like, you're
such an extrovert, kerry.
I would always get put intothose when you do those tests in
corporate leadership things andit would be like, oh, you're an
(53:31):
extrovert and you're anextrovert.
It's like I couldn't be more ofan introvert, if you like.
Honestly, if you paid me amillion bucks, I couldn't be an
extrovert.
However, what I am brilliant atis pretending that I am and
that's a coping mechanism.
It's a like, it's a ummirroring mechanism, and it's
(53:53):
the thing that makes you thinkthat I'm an extrovert and that I
really have got my shittogether and I know what I'm
talking about.
And the the thing that I havethat is not untrue is that I'm
super direct, and that's the youwere talking before about the
sales and the autism thing.
(54:15):
One of the reasons that peoplewith autism do really really
well in sales is because theycan't fake it.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
So the people who they'redealing with are probably like,
oh man, this person's prettyopen yep, they can't lie, they
can't like, they can't sellsomething that they don't
believe in.
Um so yeah, it's actuallyinteresting.
It's so interesting, but, um,look, we are getting close to
the end, but I did want to goover this one here.
What advice do you have forneurodivergent people or
(54:44):
aspiring entrepreneurs who feellike they don't fit in the
traditional mould?
And that's pretty funny howwe're just talking about that.
It's flowing really well today,what's?
Speaker 2 (54:53):
going on.
Oh, good, good, yeah, it alwaysflows really well.
What am I saying?
I was about to say it's becauseit's you right, Like you make
people very comfortable.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
Team effort.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
Yeah, look, this is.
You know, if I was going to gooff on a tangent, this would
definitely be one of them.
The big piece of advice foryoung people is just realise
that you don't have to be likesomebody else, like if you are
struggling, you're not broken.
You don't have to be likesomebody else, like if you are
(55:24):
struggling, you're not broken.
You don't have a glitch in thesystem.
You don't have a bug in yourkind of um, in your sort of dna
um.
But continue to be curious andjust work out what it is that
you love.
Like I wouldn't have been ableto tell you what I loved when I
(55:46):
was 17, except for sport andprobably drinking and dancing,
right.
But on reflection, what Iprobably realised that I loved
was solving problems.
I loved making things.
I loved seeing someone's facewhen you give them a solution to
(56:13):
a problem that they haven'tbeen able to figure out
themselves.
So that's like don't try andfit into the system or the mould
, because the mould is bullshitSorry.
Speaker 1 (56:26):
No, no, no, it's all right.
Can I just say something onthat?
A big thing that I've found isdefinitely trying to find your.
Is it your crowd?
Is that like trying?
Speaker 2 (56:37):
to find your own Tribe.
Speaker 1 (56:39):
Yeah, yeah yeah, tribe, tribe, tribe.
Yeah, because, like, thebiggest thing I've found was,
for a very long time, you know,I used to wear suits, have a
shaved head, clean shaven, allof that, and I was trying to be
someone.
I wasn't, so I was attractingthe wrong audience and I was
finding it really difficult toconnect with these people, like,
(57:02):
like you were saying before,like being extroverted and
people probably thinking, oh,this guy's really extroverted
here.
I just couldn't do it right.
And then, over the pandemic, Iwas like stuff, this, I'm gonna
grow my hair out long because Ilike having longer hair.
Um, I want, like you know, bitof a beard.
I just want to dress casually soI feel comfortable you know all
(57:25):
of that, and then that's wheneverything started to change,
started to attract the rightpeople and that's where, like
especially NeurodiversityAcademy really started to take
off.
Speaker 2 (57:37):
And I think that that is like, that is a, that is the
root core, that is the stem tohappiness.
Right, and by that I mean whatyou've just described, that
revelation like realising thatyou're not attracting the right
people.
It's always something that youonly realise afterwards, that
(58:02):
you only realise afterwards, andso when I say the thing you
know, like realise that you'renot broken or that you don't
have to try and be like somebodythat's sitting next to you or
that, like is seen to be like asuper legend, I think that you
don't realise that until later.
Like you can't actually say, oh, that's what she meant, but the
(58:25):
and the whole, just be yourself.
It's the same thing.
It's like what the fuck doesthat?
I mean?
What does that mean?
Right, like what the hell does.
Be yourself, I don't know who Iam.
Like.
I'm trying to be like Johnny,because Johnny seems to be
getting like all the promotions,but the sooner you can sort of
go, okay.
Well, I really like this.
I really like the feeling ofhelping people, or I really like
(58:49):
the feeling of building things,as opposed to trying to put
like an actual title or a nameon something.
I think that that is the thingthat helps you get closer to
understanding yourself andtherefore understanding the
right people to be around andletting go of all the people
pleasing bullshit and the fearof being a failure.
That just just comes withhaving brains like we have
(59:12):
totally, totally couldn't agreemore, there couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (59:16):
But um, look, we're pretty much at the end here.
So, finally, if you could giveone piece of advice to your
younger self, what would it be?
Speaker 2 (59:26):
Back yourself, back yourself.
Like every single time I'vethought oh, that almost seems
like blah.
Or I wonder if that's oh, no,no, it wouldn't be, because how
would I know?
Some other hero has come throughand said oh, it's this, it's
like I knew it was that so yeah,just back yourself and, like,
(59:50):
once you've figured out a way toback yourself, find a voice
that you're comfortable with.
It doesn't have to be a shouty,you know, um, kind of a fake
extrovert one like mine.
Um, but borrow someone else'sif you have to until you find
your own.
But back yourself because wehave this amazing ability to
(01:00:14):
read situations, read people,connect dots, and it is a
wonderful, wonderful thing thingfrom a business perspective,
but also from just knowing howyou want to, you know, make your
way through life, and it can bevery, very powerful.
Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
You legend, Kerry.
Thank you so much for coming ontoday.
Did you enjoy yourself?
I loved it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
I'm like let's keep going.
Pretty cool right.
Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
Yeah, we could go.
We could go, but I don't knowhow our guests would probably
might need to go now, becausesometimes we have people
listening from overseas who areon the train to work and stuff
like that.
So they could be at work by now.
But, carrie, look, thank you somuch for coming on.
If people want to connect withyou, where can they find you
(01:01:05):
linkedin.
Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
I'm there, you.
You can't miss me um theannoying couple of days.
Yeah, um or uh.
Yeah, gap um website, uh,website.
Yeah, I'm around carrie mill umwherever wherever.
Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Hang on.
We've got someone, I think, hascome through with a question.
Before we leave, how does onefind their identity so they can
begin attracting the rightpeople?
I'd love to answer that, butwe're actually a bit pushed for
time.
But, elizabeth, thank you somuch for sharing that, but maybe
kerry can go on and answer thatafterwards type of thing.
(01:01:46):
Carrie, thank you so much forbeing on today, it's been a
pleasure, no problem, you're arock star, right and for all of
our listeners as well.
If you haven't already done so,please subscribe, like and
follow to all of our socialmedia platforms.
My name's Will Wheeler.
This is NeuroDivergent mates.
Till next time.
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates.
All right, welcome.
(00:25):
How is everyone today?
Um welcome to another episodeof neurodivergent mates.
I'm your host, will wheeler,and today I'm joined with my
special guest, carrie milne, totalk about becoming an audi hd
marketing expert.
Carrie, what's going on, myfriend?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
hello, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I'm very excited no problem, sorry, did I see that
you're a little bit nervous tomeet me and stuff?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I thought I saw on like your linkedin, you're like
I'm a little bit nervous to meetyou yeah, because I, I, um,
I've done a few podcasts but um,none quite as kind of um
serious, and um, well, I sayserious in that you're really
good at this and so yeah, I waslike oh my god.
But no, I think, probably lessnervous, because at least if I
(01:15):
go off on some tangent, you'llbe like oh yeah, that's expected
yeah, totally, totally, totally, don't be nervous or anything.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Honestly, like, um, and I think, like like, for
those of you who don't know, weactually sort of get on to the
podcast 15 minutes before itactually starts.
So it actually is a really goodway to just speak to the people
, calm their nerves, all of that.
By the time we're ready to sortof get in.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
It's like we've been talking for like forever, type
of thing if that makes sense,that's a good way to do it, for
sure.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yeah, totally, totally.
But look what we'll do beforewe do get started.
I'll just do a little bit ofhousekeeping all of that.
So if this is your first timelistening to us, please
subscribe, like and follow toall of our social media pages.
You can check us out on TikTok,facebook, instagram X, twitch,
(02:11):
youtube and LinkedIn and please,wherever you check out any of
your podcasts, please, on anyplatform, please subscribe,
follow us, do whatever you needto do to help us with the
algorithm to get us out there,and so forth.
Now please check out the workwe're doing with Neurodiversity
Academy.
You can check us out atneurodiversityacademycom.
Got heaps of really cool stuffon there coming up.
(02:33):
Got some really cool articles,some blogs that are coming out.
Gee, what else we got.
So many things I just keeplosing track of, but there will
be a lot more stuff coming outshortly, so please check out
that stuff there.
Now look tonight or today orwhatever it's still sort of
today in wherever you are overin WA, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Kerry, it is a little bit yeah, 4.30.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah yeah, and for our American listeners, right,
because we do have people fromall over the world listening
right.
So you know, or even peoplefrom the UK, australia has like
three time zones, just to get alittle bit of an idea of how big
Australia is.
So it's still like four.
(03:21):
And it was funny when I firstreached out to Kerry, I said to
her I said, look, look, do youwant to do this a little bit
later, because I know I'll onlybe 4 30 in the afternoon,
correct?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
yeah, that's it.
But uh, as we said, we'resaying before um, this is a
great time for me because I'mlike having my second kind of
energy burst, so yeah, totally,totally awesome, awesome,
awesome.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
But look, before we do move on, just a little bit of
a warning.
We like to do this and we maynot have any, um, real
hard-hitting stuff in the in theinterview today, but better to
um be prepared.
So a little bit of a warningsome uh discussions may be
triggering.
If you need help, please reachout to a loved one or call
emergency services.
We are not doctors.
This is a space for sharingexperiences and strategies.
(04:07):
Now, for anyone who might belistening to us live at the
moment, please feel free toshoot through any questions or
even just interact with us asmuch as you'd like.
Um, so just put it into thecomments on whatever platform
you're watching us on at themoment, and if it's a good
question, uh, we'll put it up onthe site.
(04:28):
If it's a I know, a bit of ashit question, we'll probably
not put it up, yeah, but um, weshould be able to go with that
there so questions only yeah,yeah, yeah, totally, totally,
totally.
So, carrie, so you, you ready torock and roll, my friend, let's
do it.
You're born ready, right?
All right, okay, cool, let'sstart with the beginning.
(04:50):
So can you tell us a bit sorry?
Can you tell us about yourcareer journey and how Gap came
to be?
So Gap is your business, am Icorrect?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
That's it.
Yeah, so Gap is my businessthat I started about seven years
ago.
How that came to be is a veryit was a total mistake.
If I think back to school, Ihad no idea what I wanted to be
when I grew up because I justwas so stressed about actually,
(05:25):
you know, getting past thegraduation of school.
I think the most visual memoryI have of what I wanted to be
when I grew up was JohnFarnham's Backup Singer.
I was 100%.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah, I was 100%.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, I had those moves, man.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Like the Johnny.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Farnham, yeah, but apart from that, I just knew
that I wasn't very smart, or atleast that's what I thought.
So the only things that I everreally aspired to be were things
that I had seen people in mylife you know like teachers or
you know pilots or whatever, andthat, yeah, it was kind of no
(06:13):
real drive to do anything inparticular, although I knew that
I needed to be successful.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
So what was school like for you?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
out of curiosity, Awful, it was a complete yeah.
I have no nice memories ofschool because I knew from a
very young age that I was, youknow, I was dumb, I couldn't
read properly, I couldn'tremember things that we learnt
(06:44):
in class.
I was dumb, I couldn't.
I couldn't read properly, Icouldn't remember things that we
learnt in class.
I was extremely compliant andso I wasn't loud, so much as
naughty, but I would participatein, you know, discussions and
whatnot and be quite whatnot andbe quite um.
You know my, mine was thereport card that said um, kerry
(07:07):
is a fantastic um student tohave in class, but she needs to
try harder for tests and exams.
Well, I was never going to beable to pass a test or an exam,
um, but my undiagnosed adhd andautism and dyslexia was, you
know, completely a mystery atthat stage.
(07:28):
And in the 80s and 90s girlsdidn't get ADHD.
Really by didn't get it.
I mean we didn't get, certainlydidn't get.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Like, identified as being that.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
No, identified as being that.
No, um, I was.
I think I got diagnosed asdyslexic in year nine, which
over here is I would have been13, um, and uh, the the kind of,
yes, she's got severe dyslexia,um, which even that we didn't
really know what it meant, um,but it was sort of you need to
(08:07):
study harder, um, and so my mumwould get you know, my mum would
get the the report card thatsays Kerry just needs to apply
herself more.
And my poor mum said the exactsame thing mum would be like
well, you need to apply yourselfmore mom knew, because mom had
got me a maths tutor, she'd gotme an english tutor.
(08:28):
She knew that on weekends Iwould study, I would do my
assignments and all that sort ofthing.
Like I was such a good, goodkid because I didn't want to let
anybody down, um, the peoplepleaser, uh.
But then when she'd get thisreport card, she's just like
something's wrong and and toanswer your question, the really
long way around, that was justa massive driver of anxiety for
(08:53):
me.
I had severe anxiety fromprobably the age of nine or ten,
um, and I just spent my entiretime at school thinking why
can't I be like everybody else?
Why am I so?
Speaker 1 (09:11):
dumb, why can't I just get this?
Why do I?
You know, you know, I rememberI used to like hit my head like
why can't you get this?
Because I don't know about you,but I would get like I would
have to stay in at lunchtime andjust sit there, looking at a
piece of paper, thinking I haveno idea what this means mine
would start from the moment, orit start on a Sunday night.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I would just get like all kinds of anxious um.
And then every morning, fromwhen we would leave home to the
when mum would drop us at thebus stop, which was, like you
know, eight minutes or somethingdrive, I would just be crying
(09:54):
every single morning.
And I think I say to my mumfrequently you poor thing, I
knew that you had to then go andwork, you know, and like you're
dropping this kid off that'sbeen crying, and she said, oh,
it was heartbreaking.
And she said but what was worsewas when you thought that you
were trying to hide.
When you got a bit older, youthought that you were trying to
(10:15):
hide the fact that you werecrying because you didn't want
to upset me, and I was like, oh,I remember that.
So, yeah, I like school washard.
And then the fact that I thinkI was good at sport, though,
which I've heard you talk about.
How you know, sport was a thingfor you and, thank goodness.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Totally.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, I didn't.
As I got older, I didn't haveto worry about who was I going
to eat my lunch with.
Did I have to eat lunch in thetoilets?
Because I could go and findsome like there would be
something on at lunchtime thatwas sport related.
And then I found myselfcoaching younger kids.
So coaching younger kids innetball or basketball or
(10:59):
volleyball, swimming, whateverit might be and I think that is
where I started to enjoy schoolmore, because there was
something that was giving me abit of Can I?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
A bit of drive and all of that.
Can I just say that this is abig thing that I sort of picked
up with sport when I was younger.
Now, actually, I used to playvolleyball not long ago.
I just can't find a goodvolleyball place to play down
here in Sydney, but that's awhole other story.
But the thing that I found,especially with sport when I was
(11:36):
like a teen, or you know, inprimary school and a teenager,
all of that was it was sort ofweird because in school like
like what I mean in school, likemaths and English and subjects
like that I was reallystruggling.
I felt really, really dumb, allof those types of things.
But then when I'd get on ontothe sports field, I was
(11:58):
unstoppable and I didn't feeldumb.
Then, do you know what I mean?
And in my head I would oftenthink to myself I don't know.
It was a weird feeling becauseI'm like, I don't feel dumb.
I especially when I would belike scoring like heaps of
points or hitting home runs orwhatever that was, and like
(12:19):
running rigs around other people.
And it was a weird feelingbecause it's like you're made to
feel dumb, but here it's likeI'm not, it's like I'm the smart
person.
Yeah, well, you were 100% makessense.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
And I think, um, you know, when you and I've chatted
before, it's like, uh, I was, Ibecame a coach of younger kids
and then I was fairly good atsort of netball and volleyball
and that meant that I went on to, you know, represent the state
and, you know, on my weekendclub I was a captain, and so
(13:03):
there's these sort of leadershipthreads that were coming
through that I'd never reallyrealized until, uh, later in
life.
Um, and so when you say youfelt like you were unbeatable or
you felt like you were thesmart one, you were because you
were connecting dots, that thepeople that were sitting next to
you in maths who were literallyprobably connecting dots, but
(13:26):
you know, formulas and stuff orwhatever english um, they
couldn't do what you could doand yeah and that is because you
know you would have had likethat.
Um, you know what sport were youplaying?
Oh, gee, uh afl I would playbaseball you know yeah well, I I
(13:56):
was.
I'm not very tall, but I hadthis reputation, um, for being a
very, very good defender, and Inow know that that's because I
could like micro body language.
I could read when someone wasabout to like throw it in a
particular, throw the netball ina particular way and I'd
(14:17):
intercept it um, fascinating,like on reflection.
But yeah, so, um, I ended up,uh, going through um getting the
lowest score of anybody in myyear in Western Australia to get
into university.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Um, how'd that make you feel uh, I just was relieved
.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Actually, I had nothing, nothing other than
being relieved.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Um well, that you got the lowest score that I got in,
oh, that you got even with it.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Oh, okay, okay, because I was going to get into
university, oh yeah, because Igot the lowest op you can get oh
right, well, there you go Imean so like that was.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
And then the weirdest thing was I didn't tell anyone,
but everyone knew.
I was like how the hell doeseveryone know I've got the
lowest score.
You know what?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
So that was a hard thing to take as well.
That's tough, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I have no idea.
I don't know if certain peoplein the school let people know
and then it's gotten out.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
I have no idea, but that knocked me for a long time.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
That's nasty, yeah, but you know what.
You know what's funny?
I actually found my certificateand it says OP25000000 for all
of my like classes, all of that,and I think once, like the
business takes off, and all ofthat, I'm going to get that
(15:45):
framed and put on the wall.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Do you know what I mean?
It's the best feeling.
I came across mine last year, myhigh school reports, and there
was this one teacher inparticular that just had like,
was not interested in me.
I think in her mind I was a badreflection of her.
Um, like everybody else in, itwas chemistry and physics as
(16:12):
well.
I think I don't even know how Igot into the class, but um, she
was.
She would have my mum on thephone or down at the school,
like once every couple of weeks,just saying Kerry needs to like
, she needs to keep up, and mumwould be, she's got a tutor.
I know that she's doing thework and this teacher just had
no interest, no empathy, nolevel of kind of you know.
(16:37):
Is there a different way thatwe could, you know, do this?
But that was the entire schoolsystem and I think to a degree
probably is still you know yeahthere's the box, and if you
don't fit into it, neatly, we'lljust shove you in there and you
can figure it out while you'rethere.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
I think as well that, like from what I've picked up
or what I picked up after school, that there was some good
teachers where I went right, butthe ones who I had problems
with, they just didn't want todeal.
You know, they just wanted todeal with the easy kids, right,
I was more work for them, right.
So, rather than you know it.
(17:18):
So it was more work for them.
So they're like oh, but this isa pain in the ass, you know,
and that's what I noticed a lotof the time.
But the teachers who took theextra time with me and helped me
to grow and develop, itprobably was easier for them in
the long run because once theygot me to a certain point, I was
probably a really good student.
(17:38):
Yeah, and that's what peopledon't realise.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, and I think you know I've got, obviously I've
got um nephews and friends withum kids that are school age and
whatnot and and there's adefinite um sort of scale on, uh
, a, the level of understandingthat teachers have and, b, the
(18:01):
level of understanding thatschools have and therefore what
their approach to you know,different kinds of learning and
kids in their class.
Yeah, there was none of that inmy day but it was a very, very
long time ago.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, totally, when I think back, that's like 25, 26
years ago or so Let me just sayit out loud yeah.
Yeah, totally, totally, totally, totally, totally.
For me, anyway, oh shit, okay,fair enough, but hey, let's move
on.
So some really awesome stuffthere, but you know what was it
like and we'll play better.
(18:37):
Click onto the thing here sowhat was it like receiving a
late diagnosis for adhd and asd?
Um, how did that change?
How you saw the part, your pastexperience?
Now I know for myself.
I was diagnosed with ADHD onlygee, I think five years ago now.
Or dyslexia was like the bigthing back in, like when I was a
(18:59):
kid but, yeah, had no ideauntil like five years ago.
What was that like to you?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
um it was.
Firstly, it was this massive umrevelation and like someone had
handed me the manual that I'dnever been given for my life and
I'd actually just been tryingto use the manual that you know
every neurotypical had beenhanded and I couldn't work out
(19:28):
why it wasn't working because Iwas trying so damn hard all the
time.
Um, so, from that perspective,it was so um liberating in a way
, because I was just like, oh myGod, it's not me, I'm not dumb,
I'm not hard work, you know,I'm not.
(19:50):
All of the things insert kindof like naughty person, annoying
person here.
So I think I have.
I'm only on year, I think thisis the third year and I'm going
to be 50 in a couple of months.
I was 40.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Oh, happy birthday.
Oh yeah, Are you having a bigparty?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I'm not having a big party, but I'm going to go.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Come to Sydney.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Run away from a big party.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I'm going to Singapore, oh Singapore, big
party.
I'm going to Singapore, ohSingapore.
Yeah, that'll be all right.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
I'm going to do the Grand Prix over there.
Oh wow, that would be unreal.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
I would love to.
It looks like it not, but it ispretty humid over there who do
you?
Go for in the F1?
.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
I'm massive, massive Oscar and Lando.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
They're doing well, aren't they?
Speaker 2 (20:48):
You can't get past Max.
He's just such a unique fella.
I love it.
And I find myself looking atthese guys thinking, yep, you're
definitely like.
You know, you've got someneurodivergence in you for sure.
Like just you know that wholelike super, super hyper focus.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
I don't know if it's if it's true or not, but like
with lando norris, like yeahlike I'm connected with his
father on linkedin and hisfather is dyslexic wow yeah,
yeah, yeah.
I don't know if lando is, sothat's you know, but I know from
talking with his father.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
I know he's dyslexic and he's quite open with that,
so there could be a possibility.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Yeah, I look at some of those guys because they're
like oh, I wasn't a good studentat school and I'm like oh yeah,
interesting, so you went intorace car driving.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, you weren't really hyper-focused on
something that you werepassionate about.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Totally, totally, totally.
Oh, that should be prettyawesome.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
The other thing that happened when I was diagnosed
was I am quite ashamed, I think,to say that I really didn't
have a level of awareness orunderstanding about ADHD before
I was diagnosed.
Only that I knew that it was a,you know, I knew that it was a
(22:13):
challenging thing to have askids and my cousins, my cousins'
cousins, you know, but theywere all boys that had it, and
so it was just like naughty boys.
I had no concept of things likerejection, sensitivity,
dysphoria, time, blindness.
(22:33):
I never knew that was a thing.
You know, all of these thingslike that drive a level of
anxiety, like executive function, impulsivity.
I just I had no concept of anyof that.
So when I started to learn aboutit, I just it was all of these
oh my God moments, oh, is thatright?
(22:55):
And so there's a level ofsadness, I think as well, like
grief that came with therealisation that I had spent
most of my life just trying tofit in and be compliant and
successful and never really feltlike myself, like never really
(23:16):
knew who I was, because I alwaysfelt like I was trying to mark
like you know, I'd markedsomeone as being a role model,
who I needed to be like and it'slike be like that person.
And so, you know, enter theworld of masking and mirroring,
where we're really good at.
You know, there's that memethat says, oh my god, I feel
like I've known you forever.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
It's like, yes, that's because I'm completely
mirroring and like masking andmirroring your personality do
you know, what I sort of foundlike when I look back before I
was diagnosed is that I wouldput myself in certain situations
where it wasn't really good forme.
(23:57):
So let's say, um, all myfriends were going out to a
nightclub or a pub or whateverlike that.
I'd get there and I'd be like,oh my god, like sensory overload
, I need to start drinking justto try and calm down right.
And then I'd be like blackoutdrunk, like you know, everywhere
(24:17):
, um, and I used to think why doI get like this?
No one else does you know.
Now I look at it, I'm like, ohmy god, I was using that as a
coping mechanism to deal withthat type of.
But now if someone goes, heyWill, do you want to go into
this noisy pub or what I'm like?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
take me the fuck away from there you know what I mean
but like I think that's theliberating part, and um, I was
having this actual exactconversation with somebody
yesterday about someone said oh,um, are you like you would have
taken drugs when you were, youknow, in your 20s and 30s?
And I was like, yeah, likeeverybody did and they're like
(25:00):
well, hang on.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Well, because I thought everyone did the same.
Yeah, true.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Well, but the point was I said, oh, but I have been
drinking since I was a teenager,and exactly what you were
saying was that I knew that if Iwas going to a place where
there were going to be a load ofpeople, the only way that I
(25:24):
could a feel like I wanted to bethere and b not get completely
overwhelmed by all of the thingsum was to start drinking like
two hours beforehand.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
so I was only right by the time you got in there and
then you're like and it wasalmost like all right, this is
going to help me to be able tointeract with people and things
like that.
I'm not going to be able to doit otherwise exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
And now if someone says, like you know, I talk
about it online a lot, but it'sthe whole sort of yeah, come to
a networking event with us.
It's like absolutely not.
I would rather stick a pin inmy eye thank you.
Because by the time I've walkedin, I can hear the lights
buzzing, I can smell the carpetthat's just been cleaned, I can
(26:17):
like hear 45 individualconversations.
I can hear like someonerustling a plastic bag.
That's like getting cups out of, like it's like no that's
interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
That is interesting because for me I love networking
events, but I do like to havelike not get wasted at a
networking event because it'snot really doesn't look really
good, but having a few drinksjust to calm the nerves a little
bit, because and plus, I don'tlike going to a networking event
if I don't know certain peoplethere, because at least if I
(26:53):
know certain people I can belike oh hey, there's carrie, hey
, what's going on blah blah, hey, hey, what's going on?
Hey, blah, blah, blah, blahblah.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Hey, hey, what's going on, hey, blah, blah, blah,
blah.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
And then build off from there type of thing.
Yeah, that's interesting fromyour perspective because you've
got like different sensories.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
That are in there, yeah, and I can't concentrate.
I actually really do lovegetting to know people and I
love hearing people's story, butin that kind of environment I
can't concentrate.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
I do know what you mean about hearing all the
different conversations and it'slike you have to go.
What did you say, man?
Right, you know what I mean,but yeah, no, that's interesting
.
That's interesting, hey, so outof curiosity.
So hang on.
What do we have?
Okay, so, moving on from thatone, how has being
(27:46):
neurodivergent shaped the wayyou approach strategy,
creativity and marketing?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Well, I think if you'd have asked me this
question without theneurodivergent piece a few years
ago, like, why am I so good atit, I would purely have thought
that it was because, um, I wasso well I was, I'm always really
well prepared, like, I willalways do the research, I'll
(28:13):
always, you know, look for thethreads in their insight, I'll
I'll go into the, the data, andso all of that is true.
But the neurodivergent aspectof that is what makes me able to
do that, which is, you know,pattern recognition, hyper focus
, the idea that, like, I used tothink that the word creativity
(28:35):
meant like artistic, likedrawing, but this concept that
creativity is actually justabout problem solving in a way
that is different.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Totally, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Like it's a new way of solving the problem right,
and the reason I can do that isbecause I have this amazing
ability to see parts of aproblem that are connected in
some way that no one else wouldreally make sense of, and from
(29:10):
that it's definitely it gives mean edge because I can do it
really quickly If someone comesto me and says oh, we've got, we
need to send some emails, we'relike low on leads.
Try saying that fast Low onleads, Um, and I'd go.
I'm okay, Cool, what?
(29:32):
Um?
Ask a few clarifying questionsLike what do you, um, what are
you saying in your sales andwhat have you got out in the
market already?
And what becomes very apparentis they don't need marketing or
email to start with.
They need to clarify what it isthat they're like, what problem
they're solving.
So I think the neurodivergentaspects of what I do is just it
(29:59):
allows me to remember what I'veseen before and apply it to
different businesses anddifferent scenarios, and it also
allows me to be super, superempathetic, which is what
marketing needs to be right.
You need to be thinking aboutsolving a problem in the shoes
of your audience, and so nothingsays empathy like a
(30:25):
neurodivergent empath.
So we're very good atidentifying exactly what is the
insight here.
And then how can you put thatinto some kind of strategy that
says you Will are uniquelyqualified or uniquely positioned
to solve a problem for thatclient?
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah, no, awesome.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
The sales aspect.
I think you know I nearlyfailed school, but then I
realised I was really good atselling when I started to sell
shoes and it's like how, how didI know how to do that?
Because I was reading again.
I was like reading people,listening to what they were
saying.
Oh, I really like chalk heelswith a you know leather upper
(31:11):
and a whatever, whatever forwinter.
And I realised that if I couldgive them three versions of
something that met theircriteria, they would feel so
like.
They just feel so validated andvalued and often buy two pairs
(31:33):
instead of one, and that wasjust the best thing ever.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
I think that's so interesting because, like you
know, you and I think it's notmy perception, but you often
hear what people's perception of, say, an autistic person, um,
is right, um, and putting theminto a situation where they have
to sell shoes, that can't bedone, type of thing, um, and I
(31:59):
just think it's so.
Um, you couldn't.
What's the word I'm looking for?
You can't judge a book by itscover, type of thing.
Uh, type, if I'm pretty surethat was what I'm looking for,
because like everyone has their.
Every neurodivergent personbrings their own unique
strengths and weaknesses, ofcourse, but it's interesting how
(32:23):
it all can flow into each other.
Now the reason why I share that.
I was speaking to a mother of aneurodivergent child, say, a
few months ago now, and she'stalking about how her son will
never get a proper job, he'llnever be out, all he'll ever do
is just pack boxes in awarehouse.
All of this and I'm thinking,geez man, this kid hasn't got it
(32:47):
.
You know, his mom's not reallybehind him, but then she's
talking about how he's brilliantat what do you call it debating
?
Brilliant at debating, he'slike head of the debating club
and all of this.
I'm like what?
That is like an incredibleskill to have negotiation.
(33:08):
Totally, totally.
That could make you millions ofdollars and like this is the
thing.
I think like, yeah, why can'twhat?
Why aren't people looking at, Ithink, what's happening?
Especially if we're going backto school and thinking about
stuff like that people lookingat what we're getting on paper
rather than looking at the lifeskills and going, damn man, you
(33:29):
should actually look at this.
Have you thought about maybedoing this, because this would
flow in really well with yourdebating stuff for sure, and I
think it's it is.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
I get really sort of um frustrated when I hear
conversations like that and thatthey're still happening to that
degree today, and I know thatthey are.
But I think you, you knowthere's so many layers to that
and you know, peel back the uhyou what the parents want the
(34:01):
child to be, sort of thing, andthat's a whole level of thinking
and expertise I don't have,albeit I've got lots of opinions
.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Yeah, can I say on that right, it probably comes
from the school itself because,know, when I was in school,
right, um, my parents were toldfrom the school will's never
going to be able to do this,he's never going to be able to
do that.
Now, everything that I was toldI'd never achieve, I'm probably
(34:34):
achieving that plus more.
Now.
Do you know what mean?
Speaker 2 (34:38):
I know exactly what you mean.
Yeah, mum says that in year 12I got glandular fever and I was
off school for 10 weeks orsomething.
I was really sick and it waslike the school were like, oh,
this is maybe a good idea, agood opportunity to tell her mum
(34:58):
that she needs to repeat.
And mum said you know, I knewwhat your thoughts on that would
be, as in my thoughts.
And she said I just said tothem oh, I'll mention it to
Kerry and if she wants to dothat, then I think she'll find a
way to you know catch up.
I think she'll find a way toyou know catch up.
(35:24):
But in a world where you knowyour parents really do rely on
the school to be experts how canyou, how can we expect you know
, how can we expect parents tonot believe what the school is
saying?
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah, no, you're dead
right.
You're dead right.
I think that, like, um, that'swhat I've picked up, you know,
from you know, seeing what myexperience was like and then how
I've turned out and everything,and it's sort of like and in a
way, like that parent sharingthat about, um, her son.
(35:54):
You know she's not wrong, right, but like she sort of is.
But like what I'm sort ofgetting at is that's what she's
been told do you?
know what I mean and I know withneurodiversity academy.
This is why we're doing and I'mdoing a bit of a plug here um
our webinar events, all of thatto try and help parents to go
hey, this is what's happened tous.
(36:16):
These are some other pathwaysyou can take if you've got these
issues happening and so forththere.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
I'm glad you did the plug because I was about to,
because the very first, I thinkthe very first kind of fangirl
message I sent to you was I sentto you was yeah, was you know a
(36:48):
message that had maybe Alexfrom the ADHD chatty?
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the guy from the UK right
.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yes, yes, guy from the uh, the uk, right, yes, yes,
and he was talking about um.
He was actually talking about,uh, how neurodivergent kids in
schools is actually.
It's actually just traumabuilding.
That's.
All that's happening is we'rejust building trauma for kids
for all the reasons that you andI sit here today to say, oh, I
(37:19):
was told I was dumb, I was nevergoing to amount to anything,
and you know, our parents didthe best that they could by sort
of helping us manoeuvre throughthat.
But the very first thing that Isaid to you ever, I think, was
I just wanted to say thank youfor what you're working on,
because you're changing thelives of kids who are going to
(37:43):
find out that there there's analternative being smart school
smart is not what defines yourfuture, and I well, you've got
life smart and you got schoolsmart.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
I'd prefer to be life smart, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
That's way more valuable for sure, and you know
I I look at people that I wentto school with and they didn't.
I have not, absolutely, youknow, no um negative thoughts
towards them themselves, but Ijust look at you know you were,
you were very much comparedagainst the person that you sat
next to right, and I've gone onto do incredible things,
(38:24):
different things, a lot of itbecause I was trying to prove,
you know, that I was smart and Icould be successful.
But I've worked all around theworld.
I've built businesses, I'vebuilt brands, I've been part of
global teams.
I've done so many amazingthings.
It doesn't sound like someonewho was dumb in high school.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
And I think that might flow in well to the next
question here.
Actually, now you've workedwith some major players, so GE,
vodafone and.
Pilco.
How did those environmentssupport or challenge your
neurodivergent brain?
So you've sort of shared alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yes, how was?
Speaker 1 (39:02):
that for you.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
I think probably, except for GE.
Yeah, I mean maybe GE andVodafone, but for a lot of that
time I and I really was justmasking, I was trying to
(39:24):
continually be sure that Iwasn't going to get found out.
Don't let them find out thatyou're dumb but I was really
good at what I did, right.
So one of the reasons I wasreally good and this is probably
more relevant to your previousquestion, but my brain works
almost in components, and sowhat that means is that I can
(39:48):
build frameworks and likesystems, and that's how I can
see the.
The, the dots that have beenconnected before is because I
it's the pattern aspect of itand so I became quite senior,
quite young, because I was ableto do things and learn things
quickly, um, and then when I gotinto some of those big um
(40:10):
businesses that you've got there, uh, the, the sort of what I
was able to learn wasunbelievable.
It was on a global scale, butthe I guess the trade-off from
that was I was in offices.
I was, I would be in early andleave late, because for the
(40:32):
entire time that everybody elsewas in the office, I would get
nothing done.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
I'd just be out of my body.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Yeah, um, and I think , um meetings, you know.
I mean, I worked in banking fora really long time and never
banking and insurance never havethere been more meetings in one
industry than in thoseindustries, like you know.
I'd go for weeks just havingback to
(40:59):
back-back-to-back-to-backmeetings and then I'd be
completely overwhelmed and stayup till you know 2 am or
whatever to get the work donethat I should have been getting
done when I was sitting at mydesk for an hour.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Yeah, yeah, crazy, crazy.
You said you were overseas fora while.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
yeah, yeah, so I was in the UK and then in.
I've worked all over.
I worked in um Italy, in the UKand um I was in Melbourne for
six years.
So, um, yeah, I have done theuh escape from Perth and um back
again.
But yeah, I think what thatallowed me to do though all of
(41:43):
those things allowed me to dowas what I do now, really,
really well, because I can takethe, the kind of principles that
I learned around efficiency andproductivity and marketing
strategy and research andinsights and that sort of thing,
and apply them to eitherstartup businesses or scaling
(42:07):
businesses, but only in a waythat translates for them, you
know, only in a way that'snecessary um for that particular
phase of their business.
So we're not putting in massivetech stacks or anything, but we
might actually remove somewaste by, you know, putting in a
(42:28):
um, a better process for a um,an inquiry, new sales inquiry,
for example yeah, no, cool.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Sounds like you're um all over and definitely heaps
of awesome skills that you wouldhave been able to build to to
be what you are now.
But, like you were talkingabout before, you talk openly
about anxiety and academicsetbacks.
How have those experienced yourinfo?
Sorry, how have thoseexperiences influenced your
(42:58):
leadership style?
Because I can tell you formyself, I'm very empathetic
towards a lot of people nowbecause it's like man, I can see
this person struggling.
Why are they struggling?
What can I do to help, ratherthan like, hey, pick your shit
up, man, what the hell's goingon, you know?
Speaker 2 (43:17):
um for sure, like I talk about anxiety and also sort
of you know anything related toneurodivergence or anything
that's you know what do theycall it A comorbidity?
So OCD or depression, whateverit might be and I talk about it
because I can.
(43:38):
Now I went for a very long time, um, where I didn't feel like I
could talk about it, becausethat was just.
That would be a kink in myarmor right, that that whole
narrative that I had about beingdumb.
Imagine then if I started totalk about the fact that I
struggled with anxiety or youknow anything else that you know
(44:00):
.
In my mind that would have beenlike, oh yeah, they'd be like I
told you.
So I knew there was somethingwrong with her.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Um, so how long did it take you to, how long did it
take you to be comfortable withbeing open, out of curiosity?
Speaker 2 (44:13):
I think I started talking about mental health when
I left corporate, so that wouldbe seven years ago um, and the
ADHD aspect ADHD and autismprobably took me a year.
I didn't tell anybody for sixmonths after I was diagnosed
because I never expected I wasgoing to get diagnosed.
(44:35):
So I had like that kind ofimmediate shame and then the
immediate like the grief forthat poor kid that was crying
every day.
I had like that kind ofimmediate shame and then the
immediate like the grief forthat poor kid that was crying
every day, you know, on the wayto school, like that poor child
that thought she was dumb andwas worried about people not
(44:55):
liking her and worried aboutletting her parents down and
worried, worried, worried.
And actually there was nothingwrong with her.
She was different.
There's a huge level of I thinkyeah, like a sort of grieving
process that I went through, andthen anger, you know, I think I
(45:17):
always say I want all of mytherapy money back.
I want my divorce money back.
I want my you know all of the Iback.
I want my divorce money back.
I want my you know all of the Iwant my business relationships
paid for yeah, yeah, yeah yeah,there was actually something
here that no, no one suggested.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Um yeah, so yeah but it's actually interesting
because, like I think, somepeople approach it a lot
differently to others.
Like when I got diagnosed withmy ADHD, I was already in the
neurodiversity space doing whatI'm doing, right.
So it was sort of like, yeah,all right, cool.
(45:55):
Another thing to tick off but Ithink that's what a lot of
people don't realize is that youknow, and I haven't met a a
person who had been speaking toon social media for a while, and
we met up for coffee the otherday and she's like, oh, I'm this
and that and um, you know, shejust said she's not comfortable
being open with it yet.
And you know what that's.
(46:16):
That's cool.
You know, I think everyoneapproaches things in their own
way and when they're comfortable, um, to want to share it, maybe
they never want to share it.
That's cool as well.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
I do feel like I have a responsibility to talk about
it and I think that every time Ido share something that's, you
know, I don't know quitepersonal or whatever, or maybe
even like just that little bitmore taboo-ish than the usual
(46:50):
not the usual, I'm not beingdismissive, but you know, I
think mental health, in terms ofanxiety and depression, we're
probably getting used to seeinga little bit of that now.
But you know, when I um postedabout um adhd paralysis last
week, um, I just you know thewhole concept that we want to do
(47:11):
the task but we can't likewe're literally paralyzed, um,
and that gets we can think aboutit in here.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
We're like, yeah, man , it feels good.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
I really want to wash my hair.
I know that I'll like itafterwards.
I desperately want to wash it,can I know?
But I had like four peoplemessage me after that saying I
can't tell you how much it meansto me that you, you know, you
talk about the real stuff.
It's not just the high level,it's like what this actually
(47:42):
means and you and so every timeI do that and I get that
feedback it's probably, you know, like you, but on a lower
degree, but it's like you knowthat you, you know you have to
keep doing it, but you have to,I have to keep talking about it,
because there are so manypeople that are quiet and can't
talk about it, not comfortabledon't know how, whatever, yeah
(48:05):
the thing that I and I've sharedthis on the podcast before is
that, especially when I feltlike when I first was like going
out there and promotingneurodiversity, all of that type
of stuff neurodiversity wasstill only very, very like not
spoken about, like tiktok wasn'tbig, all you didn't have like
(48:28):
all of these like uh influencesthat we have now all
Speaker 1 (48:32):
of that type of stuff .
So I'd be going in to um, uh,dni events and being going on
this and that and the looks I'dget from people, it was like it
was like crushing right and likeI think the thing that really
helped me was like okay well,I'm not actually doing this and
(48:56):
this is what sort of drove me tocontinually do what I'm doing.
I'm not doing this for me.
I'm doing it for the people I'mrepresenting Absolutely.
You know what I mean.
So that's where I'm like I'vegot to be open about this and
now I'm starting to see likeit's honestly like the amount of
(49:16):
change I've seen within thisindustry.
I don't know if you call it anindustry, but a community or
whatever you want to call itright in industries, you can
probably say it's skyrocketingcompared to what
Speaker 2 (49:32):
it used to be which is good, and you know like
people laugh at the wholeconcept of TikTok, but I can
tell you that I was in therapyfor 30 years easily 30 years.
I have learned more about my.
I did all of the therapies.
I did the DBT, the CBT, thething whatever.
(49:54):
I did the schemers, I did them.
I learned more about myself.
I have learnt more about myselfin two and a half years on
TikTok than I did that entiretime, because what I have come
to understand is that I'm notweird.
I am weird, but I'm weird likea billion other people.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Weird in a good way.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
That validation is like I don't have to try and fit
in anymore, like and and when,the whole thing around.
Um, you know, I'd wear a whitejumper or a new shirt, a new
clean shirt or whatever, and I'dalways spill my black coffee on
it and I'd get completelymocked.
You know, in one of my um oldworkplaces they'd be like, oh,
(50:41):
how long before she spills hercoffee and it's like ha-ha.
And then, you know, you comeacross the TikTok video and it's
like, yeah, we have spatialawareness issues.
We can't, we don't actuallyrealise how far or close things
are.
And just even and I haven'tgone back and said, oh, by the
way, that was my brain, butit's- like oh, by the way, that
(51:06):
was my brain.
Oh, that's pretty okay, wellthat's amazing that other people
do that all the time, yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
So yeah, it was actually interesting when I was
growing up because, like mybrother's, neurodivergent as
well, but him and I werecompletely different, like I'm
pretty sure he's like dyspraxicand like he'd be all over the
place and all of this.
I'd be like ah you idiot andyou know.
But like um, now I look at it,I'm like, ah, that's what that
(51:32):
is, or you know what I mean?
I can notice, because we'rejust completely different yeah,
it's fascinating, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (51:39):
And even just like girls versus boys, you know the
internalising that girls woulddo to.
You know that was completelystruggling, but you didn't want
to say, hey, I'm strugglingbecause you just had to be good,
(52:01):
like, just do the thing, likejust well, just it's actually
interesting when I speak to alot of my um, uh, female
neurodivergent friends and umtalk to.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
It's really interesting that neurodivergent
people were very open aboutanything, like some of the
conversations that um if I wasto have with like at a normal
workplace or something.
I'd probably be ousted, youknow stuff like that.
But it's been interesting whenspeaking to especially females
on certain topics as well andgoing oh, as a male, this is
(52:39):
when some of them have been likeoh yeah, like, this is how I
feel and I'm like oh my God, Iwould never have picked, that
you know.
But yeah it is quite interesting, but I don't think of it as
like weird.
I think to myself, shit, I'mweird.
But then I speak to these samepeople.
I'm like, oh shit, we're justthe same.
Speaker 2 (53:04):
Yeah, I'm like like I'm just I'm having a phase of
leaning into the whole weirdthing.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
I don't know why I maybe I've picked up on other
people talking about it's normal, really.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
Yeah, it's just like you know, it's always been there
, the.
The classic for me in terms ofwhat you were just talking about
, um, is when people say oh mygod, you're such like, you're
such an extrovert, kerry.
I would always get put intothose when you do those tests in
corporate leadership things andit would be like, oh, you're an
(53:31):
extrovert and you're anextrovert.
It's like I couldn't be more ofan introvert, if you like.
Honestly, if you paid me amillion bucks, I couldn't be an
extrovert.
However, what I am brilliant atis pretending that I am and
that's a coping mechanism.
It's a like, it's a ummirroring mechanism, and it's
(53:53):
the thing that makes you thinkthat I'm an extrovert and that I
really have got my shittogether and I know what I'm
talking about.
And the the thing that I havethat is not untrue is that I'm
super direct, and that's the youwere talking before about the
sales and the autism thing.
(54:15):
One of the reasons that peoplewith autism do really really
well in sales is because theycan't fake it.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
So the people who they'redealing with are probably like,
oh man, this person's prettyopen yep, they can't lie, they
can't like, they can't sellsomething that they don't
believe in.
Um so yeah, it's actuallyinteresting.
It's so interesting, but, um,look, we are getting close to
the end, but I did want to goover this one here.
What advice do you have forneurodivergent people or
(54:44):
aspiring entrepreneurs who feellike they don't fit in the
traditional mould?
And that's pretty funny howwe're just talking about that.
It's flowing really well today,what's?
Speaker 2 (54:53):
going on.
Oh, good, good, yeah, it alwaysflows really well.
What am I saying?
I was about to say it's becauseit's you right, Like you make
people very comfortable.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
Team effort.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
Yeah, look, this is.
You know, if I was going to gooff on a tangent, this would
definitely be one of them.
The big piece of advice foryoung people is just realise
that you don't have to be likesomebody else, like if you are
struggling, you're not broken.
You don't have to be likesomebody else, like if you are
(55:24):
struggling, you're not broken.
You don't have a glitch in thesystem.
You don't have a bug in yourkind of um, in your sort of dna
um.
But continue to be curious andjust work out what it is that
you love.
Like I wouldn't have been ableto tell you what I loved when I
(55:46):
was 17, except for sport andprobably drinking and dancing,
right.
But on reflection, what Iprobably realised that I loved
was solving problems.
I loved making things.
I loved seeing someone's facewhen you give them a solution to
(56:13):
a problem that they haven'tbeen able to figure out
themselves.
So that's like don't try andfit into the system or the mould
, because the mould is bullshitSorry.
Speaker 1 (56:26):
No, no, no, it's all right.
Can I just say something onthat?
A big thing that I've found isdefinitely trying to find your.
Is it your crowd?
Is that like trying?
Speaker 2 (56:37):
to find your own Tribe.
Speaker 1 (56:39):
Yeah, yeah yeah, tribe, tribe, tribe.
Yeah, because, like, thebiggest thing I've found was,
for a very long time, you know,I used to wear suits, have a
shaved head, clean shaven, allof that, and I was trying to be
someone.
I wasn't, so I was attractingthe wrong audience and I was
finding it really difficult toconnect with these people, like,
(57:02):
like you were saying before,like being extroverted and
people probably thinking, oh,this guy's really extroverted
here.
I just couldn't do it right.
And then, over the pandemic, Iwas like stuff, this, I'm gonna
grow my hair out long because Ilike having longer hair.
Um, I want, like you know, bitof a beard.
I just want to dress casually soI feel comfortable you know all
(57:25):
of that, and then that's wheneverything started to change,
started to attract the rightpeople and that's where, like
especially NeurodiversityAcademy really started to take
off.
Speaker 2 (57:37):
And I think that that is like, that is a, that is the
root core, that is the stem tohappiness.
Right, and by that I mean whatyou've just described, that
revelation like realising thatyou're not attracting the right
people.
It's always something that youonly realise afterwards, that
(58:02):
you only realise afterwards, andso when I say the thing you
know, like realise that you'renot broken or that you don't
have to try and be like somebodythat's sitting next to you or
that, like is seen to be like asuper legend, I think that you
don't realise that until later.
Like you can't actually say, oh, that's what she meant, but the
(58:25):
and the whole, just be yourself.
It's the same thing.
It's like what the fuck doesthat?
I mean?
What does that mean?
Right, like what the hell does.
Be yourself, I don't know who Iam.
Like.
I'm trying to be like Johnny,because Johnny seems to be
getting like all the promotions,but the sooner you can sort of
go, okay.
Well, I really like this.
I really like the feeling ofhelping people, or I really like
(58:49):
the feeling of building things,as opposed to trying to put
like an actual title or a nameon something.
I think that that is the thingthat helps you get closer to
understanding yourself andtherefore understanding the
right people to be around andletting go of all the people
pleasing bullshit and the fearof being a failure.
That just just comes withhaving brains like we have
(59:12):
totally, totally couldn't agreemore, there couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (59:16):
But um, look, we're pretty much at the end here.
So, finally, if you could giveone piece of advice to your
younger self, what would it be?
Speaker 2 (59:26):
Back yourself, back yourself.
Like every single time I'vethought oh, that almost seems
like blah.
Or I wonder if that's oh, no,no, it wouldn't be, because how
would I know?
Some other hero has come throughand said oh, it's this, it's
like I knew it was that so yeah,just back yourself and, like,
(59:50):
once you've figured out a way toback yourself, find a voice
that you're comfortable with.
It doesn't have to be a shouty,you know, um, kind of a fake
extrovert one like mine.
Um, but borrow someone else'sif you have to until you find
your own.
But back yourself because wehave this amazing ability to
(01:00:14):
read situations, read people,connect dots, and it is a
wonderful, wonderful thing thingfrom a business perspective,
but also from just knowing howyou want to, you know, make your
way through life, and it can bevery, very powerful.
Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
You legend, Kerry.
Thank you so much for coming ontoday.
Did you enjoy yourself?
I loved it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
I'm like let's keep going.
Pretty cool right.
Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
Yeah, we could go.
We could go, but I don't knowhow our guests would probably
might need to go now, becausesometimes we have people
listening from overseas who areon the train to work and stuff
like that.
So they could be at work by now.
But, carrie, look, thank you somuch for coming on.
If people want to connect withyou, where can they find you
(01:01:05):
linkedin.
Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
I'm there, you.
You can't miss me um theannoying couple of days.
Yeah, um or uh.
Yeah, gap um website, uh,website.
Yeah, I'm around carrie mill umwherever wherever.
Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Hang on.
We've got someone, I think, hascome through with a question.
Before we leave, how does onefind their identity so they can
begin attracting the rightpeople?
I'd love to answer that, butwe're actually a bit pushed for
time.
But, elizabeth, thank you somuch for sharing that, but maybe
kerry can go on and answer thatafterwards type of thing.
(01:01:46):
Carrie, thank you so much forbeing on today, it's been a
pleasure, no problem, you're arock star, right and for all of
our listeners as well.
If you haven't already done so,please subscribe, like and
follow to all of our socialmedia platforms.
My name's Will Wheeler.
This is NeuroDivergent mates.
Till next time.
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