How do we press play on menopause - Georgie Drury & Dr. Nicole Avard - Neurodivergent Mates

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of Neurodivergent Mates.

(00:26):
I'm your host, Will Wheeler,and today I'm joined with
special guest Georgie Drury andDr Nicole Abad.
Did I get it right?

Speaker 2 (00:36):
You nailed it Well done yes yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
See what I mean.
I feel like I'm under pressureand I need to like get those
names right.
But I got there.
But thank you so much you're ina safe space, will, that's fine
yes, yes, yes, it would bepretty bad if you just had a go
at me, um, especially on thistype of podcast.
But look, thank you so much forcoming on today.
Look, um, for all of ourlisteners, what we're going to

(01:01):
be covering today is how do weplay on menopause?
So, so lots of really good.
What we're going to be coveringtoday is how do we play on
menopause.
So lots of really good stuffthat we're going to cover today,
a topic that is definitelygoing to be so important to talk
about, something that Iprobably wouldn't say I know
everything about.
But hopefully by the end ofthis, I'll have a pretty good

(01:23):
understanding and hopefully, forour listeners, we'll be able to
take in a lot of stuff to beable to really start doing some
really great stuff for theworkplace or just in general.
But before we do get started,I'll do a little bit of a shout
out, just for anyone who hasn'tlistened before.
So if you haven't already doneso, please subscribe, like and

(01:45):
follow to all of our socialmedia platforms.
We're available on TikTok,facebook, instagram X, twitch,
youtube and LinkedIn, and if youhaven't already done so, please
go and check this out whereveryou listen to your podcast.
Also, please remember tosubscribe like rate us.
Do whatever you can do to helpwith the algorithm, because

(02:06):
every little bit helps.
Also, too, I'd just like to doa big shout out to all the work
that we're doing over atNeurodiversity Academy.
Please go toneurodiversityacademycom to
check out all the work we'redoing.
We've got some really goodprofessional development that's
out at the moment still on saleto the end of this week so if
you haven't already got it,please go and check it out.

(02:27):
It's definitely going to beworthwhile your time.
Just another shout out warningsome discussions may be
triggering.
If you need help, please reachout to a loved one or call
emergency services.
I like to say that we're notdoctors, but one of us actually
is a doctor today, so thatdoesn't really apply for this.
But this is a space for sharingexperiences and strategies, and

(02:52):
if you would like to ask somequestions while we're on the
live version, which we are rightnow, please pop it into the
comments section wherever you'rewatching us on the social media
pages, and hopefully, if we getit through in time, we should
be able to ask it on the socialmedia pages and hopefully, if we
get it through in time, weshould be able to ask it on the
live platform.
All right, let's get this showon the road.
What do you reckon?

Speaker 2 (03:15):
all right great great , I will.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
No, no, no problem, no problem.
But look, I think probably thebest thing to do is just, um,
tell us a little bit aboutyourselves before we do get
started.
Don't know who wants to gofirst you go Nick.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
I was gonna say you go um.
Thanks, will.
Yeah, it's.
It's really important, um tostart these conversations and we
really appreciate the invitefor um for opening the
conversation and safe spaces toshare.
So my name is Dr Nicole Avard.
I'm a general practitioner,special interest in integrative
medicine.
I've been in primary care inAustralia for over 20 years now

(03:56):
and I've known Georgie for sevenyears in a few capacities, but
mostly in digital health, and acouple years ago, along with our
colleague, jarrah Eddy, westarted Metaluma, basically
because we felt reallypassionate about creating a
high-tech, high-touch solutionfor women that was empowering

(04:20):
and educating in a space wherethey could advocate for
themselves, and menopause is ourfirst instance of that.
So I'm delighted to be workingwith Georgie and building some
really cool technology to helpus leverage our clinical
expertise so that we can scaleand reach more women.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Nice, nice.
Well, thank you so much forthat, Nick.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
Yeah, hi everyone.
I'm Georgie.
I'm a bit of a tech geek insneakers.
I've been in digital healthsince 2000, so a long time and

(05:06):
their wait lists are, and howyou could actually use
technology to help with that.
Well, it's a very similarscenario with menopause, and
sometimes access to doctors thatactually understand menopause
is also very limiting.
So I think that I'm sittinghere with, as Nick said, it's
the high touch and the high tech, and so how can we use
technology to really helpamplify and improve patient

(05:28):
experiences?

Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah, no, no, and it is.
It's definitely valuable and,like I was saying before, we
jumped on, especially when wewell, georgie, when you came and
spoke to me, when we first metat a conference gee, look,
middle of this year it doesn'tfeel like long ago, does it?
Geez, time flies.
We must be having too much fun,but you know, you came up with

(05:54):
an opportunity.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
Santa's coming in a month.
How exciting is that.
There you go.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
Oh yeah, I know, Don't tell me it only feels like
Santa just left, you know.
But no, no, no interestingstuff.
But yeah, I, I will admit, whenyou came up and started
speaking to me about, you know,menopause, especially in
relation to neurodiversity, um,not that I wasn't shocked, but I
was, I was very interestedbecause it was it.

(06:19):
I suppose it's not somethingthat I've really spoken or heard
about it, spoken about much inrelation to neurodiversity, but,
with that being said, you know,it's sort of it's all.
It's almost like when you, um,I don't know, say, if someone
says, hey, have you seen a pinkcar?
You know, lately, and then youstart seeing all the pink cars

(06:41):
that on the road, you, afterspeaking to you and like
speaking to other people, it wasamazing how much it was
starting to come up.
Like I was saying I was onFacebook, on a Facebook group, a
few days ago and this exacttopic came up and it was like,
oh my God, this is veryinteresting.
But you know, I think, likewhat I would really like to know

(07:03):
is like, tell us a little bitabout like.
You know, I think, like what Iwould really like to know is
like, tell us a little bit about, like you know what you guys
are doing.
We are hearing about digitalhealth, all of that.
What is it that you're doingand how will that help the
community, especially in thisarea?

Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah, I reckon let's just unpack it one step and
maybe Nick can actually helpyour listeners with a definition
and an understanding of what isperimenopause and menopause.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
Right.

Speaker 3 (07:28):
And I think if we can start there, then we can say
why it's so important about thework that we do.
So I don't know.
Nick, do you want to introduceus?

Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, sure, so well, yeah, let's dive into menopause
first.
And I think I mean one of ourbiggest values is education,
awareness and empowerment.
So menopause is getting a lotmore airplay and awareness is
definitely increasing, but it'sstill got a long way to go.

(07:57):
So let's start there.
What is menopause?
So, basically, it's one day ina woman's life and I just want
to call out when I'm using theword woman, I mean assigned
female at birth so one day in awoman's life which is exactly 12
months after her last menstrualperiod.
So a woman will generally cyclethrough a period about once a

(08:18):
month, and then the average agein Australia is 51.
And then, so you know, 12months after her last menstrual
cycle, that is her menopausalday.
Everything after that, shebecomes postmenopausal and
everything before that is whatwe call perimenopause.
Now the perimenopause transitionis the bit that's often poorly
misunderstood andunder-recognised, and it's

(08:41):
because that transition canhappen anywhere from four to ten
years prior to the menopausalday, and there's a whole range
of symptoms independent of hotflushing, which is mostly what
people associate menopause with.
They associate it with periodsstopping and hot flushing.
So there's a whole range ofsymptoms that can start to occur

(09:02):
four to 10 years before that.
So these can be things like hotflushing, insomnia, insomnia
independent of hot flushing,joint pain, dry skin increasing
in headaches, weight gain,emotional changes such as
changes in mood, low mood,anxiety, increasing rage,

(09:22):
irritability, cognitivehypofunctioning independent of
being neurodivergent, and thenother things that are often even
not brought up in consultations, like loss of libido, vaginal
dryness, recurrent urinary tractinfections, you know, changes
in vaginal microbiomes that'saffecting sexual penetration,

(09:44):
and dryness.
So there's a whole kind ofgamut of symptoms that when you
show up at a doctor's surgery,even just trying to unpack that
in a system where doctors aretraditionally pressured to see
patients kind of every six toten minutes, it is really really
difficult.
And then so I'm so delighted tobe having this conversation
with you because when you justkind of start there and say,

(10:08):
look, awareness is key andhere's all the things that might
be going on and let's unpackwhat that may look like for each
individual, and then you haveto wrap neurodivergent around it
, as we'll dive into a littlebit later.
Like it's a lot.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Well, and I'm only assuming, it would probably get
passed off as a lot of otherthings before it can be
diagnosed.
Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, so the classical definition, or the
proper definition ofperimenopause is a change in
menstrual cycle by more thanseven days, but some of these
things can be occurring beforethat happens and you're right,
it may well be passed off.
Oh, you know, we're off at busytimes in our lives where we've
got careers, we're working,we're parenting up to elderly

(10:55):
parents, we've got youngerchildren that we're looking
after, and it may well be passedoff as you're anxious or
depressed or you're distressedand sleep deprived.
But you know, as we will alsotalk about a little bit later,
you know, conversations aroundhormone replacement and
menopause for any woman in her40s who's experiencing this need

(11:16):
to be on the table.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, interesting, interesting, you know, and I can
see so many, I suppose, thingsthat what's the word I'm looking
for like work hand in hand withneurodiversity, which could
almost like people could missthese neurodivergent conditions

(11:40):
as well because of othersymptoms that are going on,
stuff like that.
So you know you were saying youwanted to start off with, you
know explaining a little bitabout what menopause is and all
of that.
How is now you know, the workthat you do?
What is that?
How is that related to what youdo now?

Speaker 2 (12:03):
Do you want to take that George?

Speaker 3 (12:07):
Yeah, I can, so I think Will.
What's very interesting is thatwe've never been at this point
in history before we've had somany women over 40 in the
workplace, and these women whoare over 40 are also managing
potentially elderly parents, andthat they have some form of
potentially child in the house,whether or not you could be a
42-year-old with a newborn andmenopausal, or you could be

(12:29):
dealing with teenagers, and so Ithink that's a strong interest
for me, because what we'reseeing is that women are often
opting out of the workforce orreducing their hours and saying
no to promotions at this time oflife, and so I'm like right,
employers, you need to careabout this, insurance companies
you need to care about this,governments and society need to

(12:51):
care about this.
And then, as we say, if we'redealing with half the population
who are female, and then Ithink the numbers and help me
Will if I'm incorrect, but onein five are neurodiverse, so
that is a huge chunk of womenthat we need to support and we
want them to be at their best sothat they can be, you know,
thriving and contributing tosociety.

(13:13):
And so that's the work thatwe're really interested in is
helping employers reallyunderstand how important this is
.

Speaker 1 (13:19):
You know, I think the thing that I found interesting,
especially when I was watchingyou talk on that panel and you
sort of spoke about it now we'reseeing that there's so much of
a higher range of women in their40s working in the workforce.
Now, all of that and correct meif I'm wrong you were saying
that, like you know, we wereseeing it used to be the case

(13:43):
that a lot of people would, alot of women would, retire in
their early 50s.
Is that correct?
Yeah, that's exactly right.
When you're really probablyalmost at the, not the.
Yeah, really, that's when, like, you could be getting some
offered some really fantasticroles, all of that type of stuff
.

Speaker 3 (14:01):
Yeah, I think about it.
You know we have, you're mostconfident, you're the most
educated, you're the mostaccomplished, and yet something
like perimenopause, which is canbe treated.
I mean, we've got to be clearit's not a chronic disease, it's
just a state of life.
But if we can help women solvefor that, then they can really
live really productive lives andbe, you know, working at their

(14:23):
best.
But then I look at thefinancial piece on that.
If you're still working, thathelps to contribute to
superannuation.
So, as we're living much olderthese days, you know women can
live well into their 90s.
It's how do you have thefinancial means to support
yourself?
Well, you need to be continuingto work now and earning as much
as you want to work and do theamount of hours that you want to

(14:44):
work.
And so that's the professionalwomen.
But what I'm also verypassionate about is our
feminized workforces, because weare.
Our teachers are getting olderand our nurses are getting older
, so we really want to keep thatcohort of women also working at
their best.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, totally, totally, totally.
So you know with what you guysare doing.
You know, especially withtechnology, what is it that
you're actually working towardswith?
So would you class yourselvesas a tech company?

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, no, I wouldn't I guess, to add my.
I work in health, so I don'tknow, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah I
guess to add my piece of to thatconversation is that we we are
really passionate about findinga new model of care.
Right, health care is breakingin australia and that's just

(15:35):
getting worse.
Since covid gps are underpressure, psychologists are.
Since COVID GPs are underpressure, psychologists are
under pressure, psychiatristsare under pressure, diagnostic
and assessment pathways areunder pressure and it's going to
take a bit of time to kind ofreinvent that.
But we want to be on theforefront of that and be at the

(15:55):
pioneering edge of what we callflipping the model.
So at the moment, as we see it,like general practice is your
first point of call, right?
So if you've got somethinggoing on, you usually go to your
GP to sort that out.
And that's getting hard to getinto, particularly in rural and
remote communities and even inmetropolitan areas now it's

(16:16):
getting hard.
And remote communities and evenin metropolitan areas, now it's
getting hard.
And with costs of living andcosts of practices, you know
there is a greater gap inaccessing healthcare.
So what we want to do is flipthat upside down.
Empower initially women as ourfirst instance, to be aware, to
understand how their symptomsare affecting them, almost to be

(16:39):
their own history takers tomonitor their symptoms, to
advocate for themselves, so theycan come into the doctor with
almost the history done and saythis is what my lived experience
is, here's my symptoms.
This is what I think is goingon.
Then we've got a whole range ofeducation.
I've read up about this, thisand this.
Here's what I've changed withmy food.
Here's what I've changed withmy diet.

(17:00):
Here's what I think about MHT.
We will put, you know,menopause trained nurses around
that so we can guide them alongthe way if they've got questions
, so that they can go to thedoctor with, hopefully, 90% of
the work done for the doctor tosay I this is what's happening
for me.
Here's what lifestyle things Ifeel like I can change.

(17:22):
Here's where I'm at with mypreventative health.
Can you just help me with thislittle piece?

Speaker 1 (17:27):
yeah, great, so better access, more knowledge,
just to be able to go take thatpressure off the doctor, yeah,
and just go in and go, here wego.
This is what everything is Okay.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
yeah, great, we don't want to replace doctors, we
want to walk alongside women andwe want to walk alongside
doctors to say, hey, we're goingto do all the heavy lifting
here, you just do what you dobest, both as an empowered
patient and as a doctor.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, great great.

Speaker 3 (17:58):
Think about our billing, our current model, that
you'd be lucky to spend 10minutes with a GP, and you know
Nick talked to some of thesymptoms.
At MetaLuma we identified 28.
You cannot unpack 28 symptomsand what's going on for you in a
10-minute consult.
So we're really trying to helpthe doctor and the patient both

(18:18):
have a really informed and veryyou know comprehensive consult
in that 10 minutes.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
And out of curiosity, right, and this sort of relates
to sort of neurodiversity, butgetting a diagnosis for, say, if
you're ADHD or autistic orwhatever that might look like,
that can be really expensive,very time consuming.
What's the?
Is there a huge cost involvedwith getting diagnosed for

(18:46):
menopause?
All of that type of stuff.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
No, so great question .
So it's a clinical diagnosis.
So there's no cost at all.
It's just oh, here's yoursymptoms and you are within this
is happening to your cycle andand this is this is therefore
what it is, um.
The only caveat to that is ifyou, if you're a woman who

(19:10):
doesn't have a womb ie had ahysterectomy um or has an iud in
place and and the cycle or hadan ablation, say, and the cycle
is irregular and you're notquite sure what's going on, then
you can, in some circumstances,do some blood testing that can
point you in the right directionto see if you're menopausal.
But that's not usual.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
It's normally just around taking a good history and
symptoms and then coming to akind of shared decision yeah,
and definitely helpful like youwere talking about rural all of
that if you're able to get allthat stuff done.
Because, like I remember, whenI was living up in townsville,
people would just come intotownsville from a lot of these

(19:52):
big like um properties out westjust to see the doctor and that
had to be like a week.
That was like a week plan tojust go see the doctor, where
this can probably cut down a lotof that.
And go look, because I'm not,I'm assuming that you know,
maybe in the past you've had togo to the doctor, go away to

(20:12):
come back, you know, and it'sbeen-backwards type of thing,
where this will eliminate all ofthat and go look, we've got all
of it here, here's the evidence, let's get started, type of
thing.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
If that makes sense.
Well, it's early interventionright.
And that prevention piece,because we know, like Nick, as
she said, she's a doctor, she'sat the coalface, doctors are
under pressure, women are onlytaking time off work, booking
appointments, driving, as yousay, from um to townsville, from
rural, when they're at a stateof distress so it's how can we

(20:47):
help them get?
Some learning and understandingbefore they're at a state of
distress and and that's where wereally want to see that we can
come in and bridge that gap.
No, that's awesome that'sawesome.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
I love what you guys that we can come in and bridge
that gap.
Now that's awesome.
That's awesome, I love what youguys are doing.
So you know, you know, like wespoke about, we were like man,
especially when you spoke to me.
You were like look, there's somany correlations between
neurodiversity and menopause.
So what are the effects ofmenopause on neurodivergent
people?
I think this one will beinteresting.

(21:18):
It's all been interesting, butbased on what we're sort of here
to talk about today and ourlisteners.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
I think the first thing to say is that we don't
really know.
You know there is a dearth ofresearch in menopausal women
that's getting better and, godforbid, there is almost nothing
on, you know, neurodivergentwomen and menopause.
So you know, I dug around inthe literature for our talk and

(21:46):
I found a systematic review thatfound three studies that could
look at it.
So you know, we have to startto be consumer driven.
So start conversations, likeyou're doing, to just say, okay,
what's the lived experience,what is going on for women at
this point in time?
Let's start to collect our owndata and lived experience.
But if we look at what's outthere for the moment, there is

(22:10):
definitely if you talk to anypsychiatrist, there is
definitely a change that happenswith neurodivergent people and
menopause, and the reason forthat is that estrogen and
progesterone are very powerfulneurobiological regulators of
the brain transmitters serotonin, dopamine and GABA.

(22:32):
So you would probably knowthose serotonin, our happy, stay
calm.
Dopamine, most important in ourfrontal cortex for attention
and concentration, and ourreward hormone that helps us
manage impulsivity.
And then GABA is our generallykind of calming hormone.
So the effects that thehormones have on that
neurobiology is quite impactful.

(22:54):
And so what's happening withthe menopausal transition is
that progesterone is generallydropping, and as is testosterone
, and estrogen is kind offluctuating and then finally
dropping.
So you get this kind of mix ofneurocognitive symptoms that

(23:14):
look like ADHD or autism, and ifthose things are already there,
then it can kind of just turnthe fire up on them and make it
look more prevalent.
So in my clinical experience,what I tend to see is that I
might have a woman who actuallyhas had undiagnosed ADHD all of

(23:35):
her life, and then that reallycomes to the fore when she's in
her late 30s or 40s, and that'sreally hard, because I think
those women have to fight hardto get a diagnosis.
You know they have to fight hardanyway, but then when there's
lots of other stuff going on,like you know, my heart goes out

(23:56):
to them because that's hard.
However, there is also a subsetof women that it's almost like
a secondary adhd, that theythink they've got adhd but
they've functioned quite welluntil they're kind of late 30s
or early 40s and as a result ofthe dropping in estrogen and
progesterone and the effect onserotonin, as well as sleep

(24:17):
deprivation and inactivity andlack of exercise and stress and
all those things.
They are then starting todevelop symptoms that look like
ADHD or other neurodivergentstates.
So teasing those two things outcan be a little bit tricky, but
it's really important becauseclearly column A needs a very

(24:38):
appropriate assessment anddiagnosis, which unfortunately
is really quite expensive, butcolumn B can be treated a little
bit differently with possiblylifestyle behaviour and hormone
replacement therapy, not to saythat column A also can't go on
hormone replacement therapy atthe same time to, you know, kind

(24:59):
of help with the symptoms.
So it's complex.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, that is really complex because, like, would it
be that?
So and this is just me thinkingoff the top of my head let's
say someone comes into yoursurgery and goes hey look, I
think I'm ADHD woman I'm talkingabout, Would the first thing

(25:23):
you look at is menopausesymptoms before you maybe go?
Hang on, we really, because,like you were saying there's a
lot of, you were saying a lot ofsymptoms would look like
particularly like ADHD, where itcould be something else.
That is, how would you go aboutthat?

Speaker 2 (25:40):
out of curiosity yeah , look, I'd probably have that
conversation, I you.
Well, I always have thatconversation with them.
I say, look, this is kind of myexperience.
How do you feel about?
And I just go with where theywant to go.
How do you feel about?
Let's address column a.
Let's let's address column b.
Let's look at sleep, let's look, look at movement.
You know, I know that you'retired anyway.

(26:02):
Let's have a discussion aroundmenopause, hormonal therapy.
Let's see how far that gets us,or do you want to do?
And then and then we, you know,I can take a history back to
tell me what it was like atschool.
Tell me about your familyhistory, like what, what's been
going on for you?
Do you think you're in column A, where you've possibly been
undiagnosed for you know, thebetter part of 40 years?

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah, no, that's interesting Out of curiosity too
.
So when I've spoken to a lot ofmy friends who have, some of
them took like nine times beforethey got a diagnosis for like
their ADHD and autism and a lotof them found and I'm not like

(26:45):
dissing male doctors here ornothing, but do you find some
male doctors may not fullyunderstand all of this type of
stuff and this is why some ofthese things are happening, just
out of curiosity oh, 100.
I think all of us don't fullyunderstand this stuff it would
be hard, it would be so hard tobe able to pick that so hard

(27:07):
like?

Speaker 2 (27:09):
it's so hard because we don't have.
You know, as georgie said,we're at a very unique time in a
woman's working life wherewe're on, where there's
different diagnoses going on,there's hormonal changes,
there's different pressures youknow what you know.
So that's hard in its own right.
And then, as as doctors, um,you know, we we usually have

(27:32):
things are changing very quickly.
The landscape aroundneurodivergent populations and
assessment is changing quickly,right, the landscape around
hormone replacement therapy ormenopause, hormonal therapy, is
changing quickly.
The training around, you know,menopause and the impact that
it's having on all body systemsin women is changing quickly.

(27:53):
So, unless you have aparticular interest in these
things, you just can't keep up.
Like, you know the amount ofstuff that comes into my email
where, if it's about, um, youknow, prostate cancer, I'm I'm
like reading the first two linesand moving on because, because
you know so I would be, I wouldbe useless with it.
Um, you know, I'm not uselesswith the prostate cancer.

(28:15):
I can do, I can do it, but youknow it's not it's.
It's not like I'm doing.
You know neurodivergentpopulations and menopause a lot.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
Yeah, you sort of I don't know, you would know more,
you know more about that areatype of thing it's actually
interesting because you know oneof my friends who I'm just
trying to think she gotdiagnosed.
It really took her, like I said,took her a lot of times and
eventually she got a femaledoctor who was actually

(28:46):
neurodivergent as well and thatwas what helped her to be able
to get the proper diagnosis.
So when you really know whatyou're really studying or
looking at, it can definitelysort of help type of thing, I'm
assuming yeah, yeah, agree, yeah, which is not helpful for
patients.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
That are, you know, trying to advocate because it's
confusing and you know it's onething to have a bad haircut for
a hundred dollars and then goand find another hairdresser,
but you know when you've got tofight hard to get a diagnosis
it's hard yeah totally so youknow.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
moving on from that, what are some strategies and
resources for coping withmenopause?
Like, where can people maybeyou know, maybe they're at this
stage, maybe they'reneurodivergent, that they might
be listening to this now andthey're like look, I need to
maybe get this checked out, what, what would be?
The first thing you'd probablysay would be I'm assuming you're

(29:46):
going to say come to my doctor,come to my medical practice
okay, cool, cool, so.
So so what could be the process?

Speaker 2 (29:58):
Instead, you can download the Metaluma app.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
See, that was what I was pushing for.
I was trying to guide ittowards that.
So, yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (30:07):
I think first point of call is know your own journey
, so educate and become aware ofwhat symptoms might be yours
that are related toperimenopause and menopause, and
then how much are theyimpacting on your life.
So understanding that, becausethen, from a place of kind of

(30:27):
empowerment and awareness, wecan then start to build, you
know, some foundations ofstrategies.
So, for example, if sleep isthe most impactful thing, then
that's where we start, becausefrom sleep everything else will
come.
So if you're tired, you're lesslikely to exercise.
If you're tired, you're morelikely to reach for refined
carbohydrates.
If you're tired, you're um,you're it's more difficult to

(30:51):
manage your mood.
So so, as a general rule, youknow it's probably all the stuff
that you hear which can bedifficult, but you know, ensure
it's probably all the stuff thatyou hear which can be difficult
, but you know, ensure thatyou're sleeping well, ensure
that you're having a diet highin protein and fibre and rich in
brightly coloured fruits andvegetables.
I cannot emphasize moving enough.

(31:13):
And thanks to ChristopherHanbury-Brown and thanks to
Christopher Hanbury-Brown, hesent me some great studies
around the impacts of stimulantmedications and the increased
risk of cardiovascular diseaseand reduction in bone density.
So the best way.
So even just knowing that, as aneurodivergent person, that if

(31:35):
you're on stimulant medications,seek out information on what is
my cardiovascular risk, what ismy cholesterol, what is my
sugar, what is my blood pressurelike do am I at risk for, for
fractures because of a familyhistory?
Or what is what is my bonedensity which comes with a
little bit of nuance becausethere's medicare criteria around
that, but very practical thingsthat we that then feed into.

(31:58):
Well, how are you eating andand and are you moving enough?
Because we know that exerciseis far and away the best
treatment for depression, weknow that it helps with adhd, we
know that it improvescardiovascular risk and we know
that it helps with bone density.
So if I had to say two things,I would say educate, educate you

(32:18):
, and oh great yeah, so I'lljust read it out.
So my fruits are just rusted outon the weekend, so I'll have to
think of another option oh,you're what sorry my freezer, my
freezer that I get okay.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
So so just for all the listeners.
So, um, we've just had Nataliecome on just sharing a question.
She said cold therapy hashelped me a lot for peri and
ADHD.
So could that be?
So cold therapy could we gomaybe a little bit more into?
Are we talking about?

(32:55):
Like ice baths out?

Speaker 2 (32:56):
of curiosity, yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
Oh, okay, so ice baths and all of that, so that
can actually really help withlike ADHD, you reckon.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
Well for some people because it's impacting on vagal
tone.
So we're talking about nervoussystems here.
So sympathetic, drive, fight orflight, you know often what
we're existing in every dayversus vagal, parasympathetic
tone, which is rest and digestand be calm.
You know, and we know thatfocus and digest and be calm.
You know, and we, we know, thatfocus and attention and
concentration is much betterwhen you're in more, when your

(33:27):
vagal tone is higher, as opposedto in the fight or flight, uh,
circumstance.
So so the the inference is thatcold therapy is improving vagal
tone, um, along with a wholerange of other things, um, and
therefore, symptomatically, itcan be helpful for people with
ADHD.
But exercise is across the board, like, free and available, and

(33:49):
I know there are barriers toexercise for women for a whole
range of things you know accessto sports and increased risk of
injury.
So if you're struggling,certainly if you've got
resources, sinking that into aqualified exercise, know,
qualified exercise physiologistto guide you on how to build
muscle and prevent those, youknow, lower your risks in things

(34:11):
that your risks increase in asyou get older.
And finally, you've got to havethe menopause hormonal therapy
conversation around.
You know, we don't know if ithelps with ADHD.
Professor Jayasharasha Kulkarniat Monash University is
passionate about using MHT foranxiety and depression in

(34:32):
menopausal women as the firstinstance, as opposed to SSRI
medications.
So I think there's got to startto have conversations and then
more research around.
Well, let's try a bit of MHT.
As long as it's notcontraindicated, it's safe, the
risks are very low and doesn'tjust help.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
Sorry.
So MHT, what is that exactly?
I think I have heard about thatbefore.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
Menopause hormonal therapy, so the acronym has
changed from hormone replacementtherapy.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
Oh, okay, because was was there, I don't know.
I just remember sitting down,um, it was actually just after I
met georgie, actually, and Iwas sitting down with, uh, three
female friends of mine and wewere talking about, you know,
menopause and all of that.
Um, is there like some uh, likedrug that's should is getting
prescribed more or not beingprescribed enough, or I don't
know?
Am I saying it right?
I don't know.

(35:29):
I just remember them talkingabout and they're like I'm on
this now and it's made things somuch better for me.
I'm not 100% sure of what I'mtalking about, but I just
remember them talking about thatand it seemed like it was
really helping.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so to kind of sum up thatbit education and awareness.
Think about your lifestyle twobig ones there are sleep and
exercise and then have aconversation around MHT.
And what you're referring to isabout 20 years ago there was a
study called the Women's HealthInitiative and that blew the

(36:07):
safety of hormone replacementtherapy out of the water.
So it overrepresented thebreast cancer risks and the
cardiovascular risks andsubsequently the bottom fell out
of prescribing hormonereplacement therapy and many
women suffered through thoseyears for the better part of 10
or 15 years.
And since then the landscapehas changed because we've got
more research now, we've donemore development in our

(36:28):
pharmaceutical world so that thedelivery, how we deliver
hormone replacement now, is muchsafer.
So we now know that the risks,the benefits, are very clear.
Sorry.
It's definitely the best thingfor treating hot flushes and and
probably will get otherimprovements in sleep, mood,
cognition, um and and sometimesin joint pain.

(36:51):
Uh it you.
If you start it within thefirst 10 years after menopause,
your cardiovascular risk isreduced.
There is a reduction in allcause mortality, so dying from
anything.
It will protect your bones andwe think that it will probably
give you some protection againstdementia.
The studies are a bit mixed onthat at the moment.
It still needs a bit moreresearch because we're early on

(37:14):
in that phase, but it it'slooking promising and and we
used to think that you used tosay you had to stop it after
five years.
That's not the case anymore.
The risks are really low aboutone to two per thousand women um
over five years, for bothbreast cancer and clot.
Even that depends on your ageand how you're taking it.

(37:34):
It does go up a little bit onceyou're hitting your 60s.
But, um, there are a lot ofbenefits now and and certainly
worth discussing, and these arethe types of things, with
empowerment and education, thatyou can take to your doctor and
say this is what I've learnedabout MHT.
My sleep is terrible and mymood is low and I can't

(37:54):
concentrate and I'm flushingfour times a day.
I really want to give it a go.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yeah, interesting, interesting.
Sorry, I'm thinking I mightmiss the next question because
it's just do medicalprofessionals understand
menopause and neurodivergence?
Well, I think we sort ofcovered that a little bit before
, so I might move on to the nextone there, because this
probably is probably a real bigthing as well the role of stigma

(38:21):
and its impact onneurodivergent people in men.
And pause.
So would you find that you knowthere are a lot, there is a lot
of stigma around um, I suppose,maybe trying to be identified
as um autistic or adhd, and youknow all of that type of stuff
yeah, um, a hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
I mean I'd be interested in what the the the
listeners lived experience is,but I think you've got a stigma
firestorm here, right.
I mean, george, you can speak tothe number of corporations
we're going into where womenjust won't speak up because of
their, because of theirmenopausal symptoms, and then
when you blend that with beingneurodivergent, then you've got

(39:04):
stigma times two squared right.
So I think that this time oflife, and particularly for women
, already comes ladled with aheap of guilt and shame for not
being enough, and that's aculture we're kind of, you know,
living in.
And when you wrap, you know theneurobiological changes and

(39:28):
sleep disturbance and everythingthat can come with menopause.
And let's be clear, not allwomen suffer through menopause.
About 20% of women will havelittle or no symptoms and yet
20% can have a really tough time.
And speaking to you, you knowtrigger warning at the front
that if you are having a toughtime, please speak to someone
your local doctor or emergencyservices or lifeline, because

(39:52):
there is no need to sufferthrough this.
And then, when you wrap aroundthat there might also be guilt
and shame associated withneurodivergence and how to
navigate that because ofdifferent requirements you know,
particularly around attentionand concentration or strategies
that are required to, you know,to keep on point and focused at

(40:13):
work or something else, then Ithink, unfortunately, stigma is
a natural outcome of that.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
I just sort of want to.
And Georgie, maybe you couldcome in here on this one.
You've been pretty quiet there,my friend.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
But you're just nailing it, you're nailing it.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
You know, I think it was interesting before we came
on.
We were talking about, like youknow how, certain things
happening in the workplace nowand it's not a question here
that I've got, but I it justcomes to my mind and I was like
this will be perfect to talkabout.
You know what type of thingsshould you know, maybe
workplaces have in place toreally be supporting?

(40:56):
Um, you know both of thesethings, or you a whole bunch of
things in general.
So people, you know, I think itcomes back to when I first met
you and you were talking abouthow a lot of women were retiring
a lot earlier because they justcouldn't really cope with what
they were going through and allof that.

(41:18):
What type of things couldworkplaces maybe have in place
now to really, you know,encourage women to be able to
work on into however long theywant to work till?

Speaker 3 (41:30):
Yeah, I think we really need to look at the
culture of a business, and soit's.
Do they have an inclusiveculture?
Have they createdpsychologically safe culture?
Can I ask for help if I need it?
So, irrespective of menopause,it's.
Do I have a culture that isembracing diversity,
irrespective of neurodiversity?
And then can I bring my wholeself to work?

(41:53):
So that's step one.
The cultures that are doing itreally well are then offering
those awareness campaigns,because, if you can think about
where mental health was 10 yearsago, it's now much safer to.
You know, put your hand up andsay I need help, which is
fabulous.
And so this is the next sort ofiteration that we're seeing of
good workplaces that, yes, wehave sorted out that mental

(42:15):
health, yes, you can bringyourself your whole self to work
, whether you're LGBTQI plus.
And then now it's that nextlevel of, well, what else is
going on?
So, am I perimenopausal ormenopausal, or am I also
neurodiverse?
And so those organizations thatare embracing those
conversations, embracing thosepeople, they're going to win the
war for talent at the end ofthe day.
Because you know, I think, aswe spoke before we jumped on the

(42:39):
call if I'm not getting thatfrom my employer, then you need
to start walking and going tofind those employees that are
going to be offering that for us.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
Yeah, so that's my first thing, yeah, totally, and
I think this day and age, likewhat's the word I'm looking for?
Like it's not acceptable not tobe accepting of different
people's needs, if that makessense.
You know, not long ago I gotabused in the middle of an

(43:09):
office because I was trying to,you know, do something around
neurodiversity and I was justlike you know what, I don't need
this.
See you later.
You know what I mean Becausethis type of culture just
doesn't exist anymore.
Well, it exists, sorry, butlike it's not um acceptable
anymore to be this.

(43:30):
These toxic workplaces that is,um, you know that, that you know
, push people to um, you know,not being able to be themselves.
I think, you know, if I,looking at it from a
neurodiversity point ofperspective, when I was able to
be myself, when I was able toshare hey look, I am struggling

(43:52):
with my mental health now I feltso much better, I felt safe.
I think safety is such a safetyis not just tripping over a
cord in the middle of the office.
There's so many other thingshere too.
And you know, I think,especially with women, when
there's, you know, they're goingthrough a tough time with their
menopause, at that time, havingthat time off to be able to

(44:18):
just relax, and that's probablygoing to do so much better, I'm
assuming.

Speaker 3 (44:23):
Well, I think if we look at the diversity statistics
, rmit did a big piece ofresearch and it said that if you
can increase women inleadership by 10%, then it can
deliver significant shareholdervalue, and for the average ASX
listed company that's over $100million.
And so it's.
How can we ensure that we arekeeping women in leadership and

(44:44):
working to the maximum amount ofwork that they want to do?
And similarly, it's a lot ofwomen during this timeframe may
take a little bit of extra sickleave, but they're actually
lying about it.
They're not saying why they'retaking the sick leave, because
they're not creating thepsychologically safe place to
say I need to take some time offbecause of my menopausal
symptoms.
They'd much rather say I needto take time off because of my

(45:08):
mental health, which is fine andgreat.
But let's look at the rootcause analysis and say well, if
we can solve for the menopausalsymptoms, then we're all going
to win at the end of the day.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
And once again and I just feel that, like when and
like, as I'm talking from mypoint of view, when I've been
able to be open with people, Ifeel more comfortable.
I feel, do you know what I mean?
Like when anyone can be openabout hey look, I'm struggling
with this at the moment, youknow, and I have a manager or a

(45:38):
supervisor who can understandthat.
For me personally, it motivatesme to want to do more in that
workplace because they supportme, if I'm correct in saying
that.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
Right, yeah, I mean, I think the thing to highlight
there is that, in my experience,women know how to heal
themselves best, right, it's notlike necessarily that they're
looking to their employer tofind a solution and solve for it
.
Sometimes, if employers are opento that, amazing, that's great.
But in the research we did withthe digital health crc, it was

(46:14):
about, you know, community andshared experience, so that the
fact that women felt empoweredenough to then speak up about
their experience, theirmenopause experience in the
workplace, and then there was abutterfly effect where then the
next person would speak up andthen the next person would speak
up, and then they'd be like, ohright, it's not just me that's
full of guilt and shame andother women are suffering, and

(46:37):
then that then builds agroundswell of well, what are
you doing?
What's working for you?

Speaker 1 (46:43):
Yeah, yeah, and that's how we improve.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
That's right.
So, without starting theconversation, we will never know
how menopausal women andmenopause plus neurodivergent
women are going to what theyneed in the workplace.
We have to start theconversations and then start to
explore, because there's goingto be no kind of roadmap for it.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
Yeah, you're so right on that because you know you
can feel so alone.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
Yeah, let's heal in community right.
It's the only way we shouldheal.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
Totally, totally.
And I remember, like if I'mgoing back to school, I remember
I thought I was the onlydyslexic kid in school, you know
what I mean.
But then, once I started beingopen about stuff, so many people
come to me now who I used to goto school with and like, oh my
god, I was as well.
And I'm like, oh my god, Iwould never have known.

(47:34):
But you know, I think as well.
Like when we start talking umGeorgie, when you and I first um
had a conversation a few weeksago about, you know, trying to
come on the podcast and connectyou with some people, you know,
I think a big thing, it's notjust a women thing.
This is where it's so importantfor other people to be learning

(47:58):
about all of this stuff.
It's the same with, like,neurodiversity as well.
Like you know, it's not just Idon't have to preach to
neurodivergent people about theproblems that we're having or
whatever, but when other peoplecan come on board and really
start to go, hey, what can I doto help?
This is where more people startcoming out of the woodwork and

(48:22):
we start seeing some reallygreat change if that makes sense
, work and we start seeing somereally great change if that
makes sense.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think you know one of ourclients.
They've opened up, you know,medical support for their
employees and they're not justlooking at the women.
We can actually now talk to themen and have a conversation
with how this is manifesting fortheir partners or their wives
at home as well so that we canhelp the men be more empathetic

(48:47):
and better caring partners, um.
So I think it's just wonderfulthat we actually need to look at
menopause as a whole of societything that we can all work
together on totally, totally,totally, totally.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
Um, we are getting towards the end type of thing.
But you know what would be someadvice for neurodivergent
individuals experiencingmenopause, and we sort of
covered a little bit around this.
But what about if we are in theworkplace?
You know what?
What could you know, what couldwe probably do?

(49:19):
Because I can tell you rightnow what a lot of neurodivergent
people and if there's evidencebehind it, a lot of the time
when there are big issueshappening, they're afraid to
speak up, they'll quit.
Do you know what?
I mean and some of these peoplecan be brilliant at their job,
um, but they won't give um a um,not an excuse.

(49:41):
Like uh, what's the word I'mlooking for?
Like uh, a reason why they'veum yeah, yeah, why.
You know, they might say ohlook, I've.
I just realized that the jobwasn't for me anymore you know
where there could have been somereally great things put into
place and this person could havereally been thriving.
So what could be some advicefor maybe some people from

(50:04):
neurodivergent peopleexperiencing this in the
workplace could be?

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Well, I think to Georgie's point.
You have to kind of assess thelay of the land, of the culture,
right?
If you're not feeling safe tofind a colleague or someone to
speak to about your experience,then that's super tricky.
If that's the case, then Iwould be, you know, seeking help
from a medical practitioner.
So first of all, as I said,empower yourself with.

(50:31):
What is menopause?
What are the symptoms?
Am I experiencing them?
What are the ones that are mostimpactful for me?
Then there's a bit of alifestyle audit, usually around,
as I said, sleep, exercise,exercise, uh, food.
You know it's important thatwomen are eating a gram of
protein per kilo of ideal bodyweight.

(50:52):
Most of us aren't hitting that.
Keeping our fiber up, um, andthen, and then going to a gp to
see if um, a, to get your kindof your health, uh, preventative
health, sorted aroundcardiovascular risk and bone
density and and cervical smearsand pap smears and that type of
thing.
But having a conversation around, should I start mht or hormone

(51:16):
replacement therapy and see whathappens to my symptoms?
So I guess you can balancethose two kind of lanes around.
Is it safe enough to startconversations in the workplace,
even if it starts aroundmenopause and you know, like
awkward conversations only startby having awkward conversations
and it might well be like ohhey, I've been listening to this

(51:37):
podcast around menopause and Ididn't know that there was like
28 symptoms and here's some ofthe things that I'm experiencing
.
And if you do that with anothermiddle-aged woman then more
than likely they're likely to gooh my God, yes, like my sleep
is terrible and you know andthen kind of, as I said,
wrapping it around with thesymptoms that can look very

(51:58):
similar for neurodivergent andtherefore escalated in the
menopausal journey.
You know, it can be nice if youcan find an ally in the
workplace, but if you don't feelyou can then empower yourself
and then seek advice with amedical professional,
particularly around hormonereplacement.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
Yeah, definitely.
I think a big thing that's whenpeople start talking up,
especially from a leadershipperspective.
You know if you're a leader inthe company, really leading in
those types of areas can reallyhelp the rest of the workforce
start to really open up.
The last podcast we weretalking about leadership and all

(52:48):
of that and the importance ofyou know speaking up around
certain issues can really helppeople start to come out of the
woodwork type of thing whenmaybe they haven't in the past,
if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Do you have anything, Georgie, to add with the
workplace?

Speaker 3 (53:06):
No, I just think that where we're at is we're on this
whole next generational change,and I think that we've had
women who have had babies or nowhave gender-neutral parental
leave, right, which isincredible progression.
And now then we need to thinkabout what's the next thing that
women want, and whether or notyou're neurodiverse, whether or

(53:28):
not you're menopausal, we haveto meet women with where they're
at and give them the awarenessand the access to care that they
need so they can live theirbest lives.
And then I think, if you can, Ioften think about if I can look
after mum.
Mum goes home, she's going tohelp look after dad, and then
she's also going to help lookafter the children, and so if we
can keep mum as the center ofthe household, happy and healthy

(53:50):
, that has a flow on effect.
And I appreciate there's awhole bunch of women that don't
have children, um, but I thinkit's that or that you know they
do have a partner and it's howcan we look to the women as
being central in improving thehealth and well-being nation?

Speaker 1 (54:05):
Totally, totally, totally Well.
Thank you so much, but look,you know we've gotten to the end
of that like awesomeconversation there.
You've definitely opened up mymind to a lot.
I'm actually looking forward tomy wife coming home from work
today so I can start speaking toher about stuff.
For some reason she doesn'treally listen to the podcast, I

(54:26):
don't know why, but she mightlisten to this one, so it would
be good for her to check out, Ithink.
But you know, where can peopleactually connect with all the
good work that you guys aredoing?

Speaker 3 (54:40):
Yeah, well, definitely come to our website.
So if you come to our website,we can help you understand
whether you're an individual orwhether you're a corporate, and,
if I can do a shout out, thatwe're looking to undertake some
neurodiversity and menopausalresearch next year, and so I do
have a link which I can put inthe chat, or, yeah, if you put
it into the chat and can you putyour website into the chat for

(55:02):
me?

Speaker 1 (55:03):
and I'll pop it up into a banner here so everyone
can see it and maybe connectwith you as well.
And you know also, too, ifthere's people who are watching
or listening to this who followmyself on LinkedIn.
I have tagged both Georgie andNick into the post for this

(55:29):
podcast today, so I'm assumingthat it's okay to connect with
you both.
Is that all right, absolutely Idon't want to say something
without asking.
I suppose Whoops, what am I?
Sorry, I just put your websiteinto the chat.
Hang on, I'll put it into thebanners here.

(55:50):
There's my ADHD brain too manythings going on at once, alright
, so here is the website, soI'll just spell it out for
people who are listening.
So, m-e-t-l-u-m-acom, how doyou pronounce it?
Met, met luma metal luma.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
It's a conjunction of two words.
So there's this word calledmetal, which is an old english
word which is like grit andvalor, so you'd show metal on
the battlefield.
And then uma, which is thegoddess of and princess of
splendor and tranquility.
So women are tough, but canalso be feminine all at the same
time.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
Yeah, no, that's awesome.
Hang on, I should be able toput this link into the chat here
and then that will go out toall of our social media
platforms.
So, yeah, it's going out to allof them right now.
So if you go to the chat, youcan check out the form to be.

(56:52):
Is that the form to be able tosign?

Speaker 3 (56:54):
up For the research.
Yes, For the research.
Yeah, so like an expression ofinterest form.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
Yeah, great, great, great, great.
So, yeah, please check that out.
Go to your guys' website, whichwe can see up on the screen
right now.
Connect with you guys on social.
Do you have any other socialmedia pages?

Speaker 3 (57:13):
Yeah, instagram, facebook, follow us on LinkedIn.
We've got a page, a businesspage, on LinkedIn, so come and
find us Nice, nice, nice.
We'd love to help you with it.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
Nice, nice, nice.
Look, thank you so much forcoming on today.
It's been great to just sitdown and I tell you what it's
been a bit of a topic that'sprobably been a little bit
outside of my comfort zone,which is, which is good, okay
because, um, I've taken in somuch of a type of thing.
So thank you so much for comingon today and sharing all of

(57:47):
your knowledge, and I love thework that you're doing.
And, look, let us know if wecan help any more with what you
guys are doing.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
Well, thanks for being a male ally Will
Appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
No problem, no problem, no problem but thank
you so much, gently, for youtonight.
Tonight that was a bigconversation, so it was, it was
I was definitely your wife mightneed to give you a massage.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
Yeah, I'll be like oh my god, I'll sleep well tonight
, I'll sleep well tonight.
But look, thank you so much,but for for any.
But for anyone who hasn'talready done so, please
subscribe, like and follow toall of our social media pages.
My name's Will Wheeler and thisis NeuroDivergentMates.
Till next time, thanks Bill.
Thanks Bill.

All Episodes

How do we press play on menopause - Georgie Drury & Dr. Nicole Avard

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

The Breakfast Club

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How do we press play on menopause - Georgie Drury & Dr. Nicole Avard