Neuro-inclusive People Leadership - Kate Hardiman

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In this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, we dive into the world of Neuro-inclusive People Leadership with our special guest, Kate Hardiman.

Join us as Kate shares her journey, the work she’s passionate about, and her insights on the value of inclusive leadership. Tune in to discover actionable strategies and where you can connect with Kate to learn more about her work.

Questions

1. Tell us a bit about yourself
2. Tell us a little bit about the work that you do
3. What is inclusive leadership, and why does it matter today?
4. Why should leaders consider neurodiversity?
5. What basic steps help create a neuro-inclusive environment?
6. How does neuro-inclusion benefit the employee lifecycle?
7. What are the long-term benefits of inclusive leadership for organizations?
8. Where can people connect with you and find out more about your work?

All episodes are brought to you by neurodiversityacademy.com

To check out more episodes, visit all our social media platforms or check us out where you listen to all your podcasts.

#NeuroInclusiveLeadership #NeurodiversityAtWork #Neurodiversity #DiversityAndInclusion #InclusiveLeadership

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of Neurodiverger Mates.

(00:25):
I'm your host, Will Wheeler,and today I'm joined with
special guest Kate Hardiman.
Did I pronounce your last namecorrect?

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Pretty much Hardiman, hardiman.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
You know what?
It's always Hardi.
Yeah, I thought so and I waslike, ah, because normally what
I do, before we start I'll sayto the person hey, how do you
pronounce your name?
But you and I have just beentalking, so I'm sort of like, ah
, crap.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
I forgot to ask.
I've been called worse.
Don't worry about it.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yeah, that makes two of us.
That makes two of us.
But look, thank you so much forcoming For all of our listeners
.
I've still got a bit of a coldat the moment, so I apologize.
I am on the good end of my cold, so hopefully, by the next time
we come, I should be all readyto rock and roll.

(01:16):
But today, what we're going tobe covering is neuro-inclusive
people leadership.
So, kate, thank you so much forcoming, but before we start, we
might just do a little bit ofhousekeeping.
So if you haven't already doneso, please subscribe, like and
follow to all of our socialmedia pages.
We're available on TikTok,facebook, instagram, x Twitch,

(01:38):
youtube and LinkedIn.
And if you haven't already doneso, please go to wherever you
listen to podcasts and subscribeto the Neurodivergent Mates
podcast.
Rate us, comment, do whateveryou can to help with the
algorithm.
That would be awesome.
Also, too, if you haven'talready done so, go to
Neurodiversity Academy and checkout all the work we're doing

(02:00):
there.
Please subscribe to the websiteas well.
We've got some really coolstuff coming out shortly.
That would be really great ifyou wanted to check out Also,
too.
Just a bit of a warning somediscussions may be triggering.
If you need help, please reachout to a loved one or call
emergency services.

(02:21):
We are not doctors.
This is a place for sharingexperiences and strategies.
And finally, if you've got anyquestions, please feel free to
put any questions in thecomments section.
Wherever you're listening to uslive on your social media
platforms.
Kate, you're ready to rock androll, my friend?

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Ready as I'll ever be Will.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
You're born ready, right?
I like to think so.
Nice, nice, nice, nice.
Well, look, let's start with abasic one.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself.
You know you're telling me alittle bit.
You're originally from thecountry.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, originally a country girl, country Victoria,
so grew up doing all of theclichéd things that country kids
do, you know running aroundpaddocks all day, climbing hay
sheds, getting over into theshearing shed with the shearers,
you know, going to school onthe bus through the countryside,

(03:20):
did it?

Speaker 1 (03:20):
snow.
Did it snow where you were, oh?

Speaker 2 (03:23):
occasionally, because it's always so cold up near
Ballarat, so we did have theoccasional snowy day up there
and I didn't deal well with thecold.
But this is pre-electricblankets when I was a kid so I
had a hot water bottle and thatwas my world.
My hot water bottle was myworld.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
Did you have to go out and chop wood?

Speaker 2 (03:43):
I did.
You know what I loved choppingwood?
Because the boys would alwaysget.
I've got lots of brothers andsisters right so we would have
chore lists and they would allget to do the fun stuff.
I thought chopping wood wasgreat so I did love it.
I can wield an axe pretty wellWill.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, Nice, nice, nice, nice.
I'm just imagining you just outthere chopping wood.
But it is hard work choppingwood.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
It is.
It is, but I did love it.
I thought there was an elementof precision and you know we had
lots of chooks and I loved alot of the outdoorsy jobs.
I did.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
I enjoyed that.
So it's just funny because,like my father, he grew up on a
farm and I'm just trying tothink I don't think it was
Ballarat, I can't remember wherehe was, but it was in Victoria,
there.
And you know, growing up on afarm, you know he'd tell me a

(04:39):
lot of stories.
Like you know, you'd go out andshoot stuff for dinner and he'd
have to go out and shootrabbits and bring them home.
Was that part of your lifestyle?

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Well, dad was actually a teacher, so we lived
on farms, but Dad, luckily,luckily there were no guns in
the house.
But because we lived on farms,dad would walk in the door, he'd
sometimes go off to the pub orhe'd go to the neighbours or
whatever, and he'd come homewith like a pair of rabbits or
something that someone hadcaught, and Mum would just say,

(05:14):
right, I'm not doing this,you're in the kitchen.
If you want to eat rabbit,you're going to skin them,
you're going to do all of thethings, you're going to cook
them.
There was that sort of livingoff the land thing as well, so
we'd lived on sheep farms and,you know, had an abundant supply
of fresh meat all the time andwe had veggies and yeah, it was

(05:34):
motorbikes and ride horseshorses for me, I'm an absolute
horse fan and I loved ridinghorses and I still can't get
enough of riding horses.
And then I got my motorbikelicence, so I did both.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, yeah, cool, cool, cool.
Yeah.
From what I've learnt from likecountry people and it's sort of
interesting, right, becausebeing a city person and I would
class myself as a city person Ididn't grow up in like the city
but like I grew up in suburbia,which is pretty much the city
and like my thought of livingout in the country would be

(06:14):
boring.
Do you know what I mean?
But from what I've learnt frommeeting people from the country,
it's actually not boring at all.
There's lots of stuff to do.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Well, we didn't think it was boring at the time.
We always thought it was reallycool actually.
But then again we didn't knowwhat it was like to live in a
city and then, as I said to youbefore we went live, I just
couldn't wait to bolt from thecountry to the city to go to
university, because I was justcurious about what lay beyond.
You know the country and I juststarted to want to get into the

(06:50):
world a bit more.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
So you always want what you have.
Yeah, and what was?
It's almost like when you moveoverseas.
What was the biggest like, Isuppose, shock if it was a shock
from when you moved from thecountry into the city out of
curiosity.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
I just think to me it was the crime and the density
of people and graffiti and itwas so edgy and people just felt
less innocent.
You know, we always used toleave our houses unlocked, like
no one used to lock their homesin the in the country when I

(07:29):
grew up.
So it's just all of a suddenyou are getting a bit paranoid,
that you might be being a littlebit naive about about things,
and you sort of had to buildthis awareness of you know, not
just being so naive and lookingout for yourself.
So I think it was more theterrifying stories that my
parents would tell me aboutbeing in the city and nothing

(07:51):
bad happened.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
I remember I had a friend who had moved from, say,
country to Womba, so up Brisbaneway into Brisbane City, and you
know, I'd say country peopleare quite friendly because it's
a very small community, everyoneprobably knows each other, all
of that type of stuff.
And he said when he first movedto like Brisbane he'd go for a

(08:18):
walk through the street and he'dsee people and be like, hey
mate, how's it going?
And he was blown away that noone would sort of look at him
like what the hell is yourproblem?

Speaker 2 (08:27):
They'd look at you all weird.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah exactly.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
Definitely not as approachable and people would
think you were being overlyfriendly and that they needed to
be wary of you.
Like, what is this person'sintention by being so nice?

Speaker 1 (08:43):
You could probably get like if you're a guy or a
girl, I suppose you'd probablybe like beat up if you said
hello to the wrong person.
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think over time you learnthe hard way.
You learn like you're notgetting the response that you
think you would otherwise get inBeaufort or Ballarat, where I
grew up.
You know up that way.
So, maybe I'll just kind ofdial it down a little bit.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
People seem to be yeah, actually, I think my
father came from Waurn Ponds.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
Waurn Ponds is just part of Geelong now, is that?

Speaker 1 (09:21):
part of Geelong, Maybe I don't know.
I've just heard of.
He has told me so many becausehe's told me about Ballarat.
He's told me about like Colac.
Maybe he was somewhere up thatway, Because Colac's a bit
further, correct Colac is a bitfurther.
Yeah, yeah because maybe hecame from there.

(09:43):
I can't remember.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
You're going to have to sit down with Dan and ask him
.
You're going to have to.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yeah, true, true, true, I'll find out what's going
on, but we really should moveon, because we are here to talk
about neuro-inclusive people inleadership.
But look, tell us a little bitabout the work that you're doing
, because I think it would begreat for all of our listeners
to hear.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, look, I might start just kind of go back a bit
because I wanted to giveeveryone sort of an idea on how
I came to be doing what I'mdoing, so being in the inclusive
leadership space.
So I think it started a prettylong time ago and when I think
about it, I think it comes downto a mix of personal and
professional experiences.
So I think I mentioned I grew upin a very big family and my dad

(10:30):
was one of eight and my mum wasone of seven, so there were
literally millions of aunts anduncles and cousins, and I'm also
one of eight siblings.
So it's fair to say, will, thatI was interacting with a lot of
humans when I was growing up andalthough I didn't really

(10:52):
recognise all of theneurodivergence that was there
at the time, I knew that therewas some because I knew growing
up that my dad's youngestbrother and sister were what was
called at the time severelyautistic, and back then no one
was talking about or evenrecognising ADHD or OCD or

(11:12):
dyslexia or dyspraxia not in myfamily anyway, because we just
didn't have the awareness or thelanguage we do now.
So I just thought that, youknow, people are just themselves
.
People thinking and doingthings differently was just
normal to me, so it wasn't untilI was in my early 20s, when I

(11:38):
started working in traditionaloffice environments, that I
noticed how much pressure therewas to kind of fit in, so to
conform and and act and be acertain way and behave a certain
way.
Um, you know, there wereparticular ways that people
wanted you to do things orexpress yourself or introduce
yourself, and that felt like areally narrow norm, um, and I

(12:03):
really struggled with that, andI saw a lot of other people that
I worked with in different jobsstruggle with that too, over
the years.
So flash forward to 2020 andthe dreaded COVID right, I was
working as head of developmentat a not-for-profit and I was
managing 14 people and that justshone such a light on how big

(12:30):
an impact the workplace can haveon someone's productivity and
their success at work.
And when I say workplace, Imean you know the physical
environment, but also peoplelike your managers.
So, while you know, some of myteam struggled with working at

(12:52):
home 100% because of theisolation you know, particularly
the people that were living ontheir own.
Others just thrived and I couldjust see that they had more
energy and they were pumping outmore high-quality work and they
were so much more efficient andit was amazing to me.
And then the penny dropped andI thought these people are

(13:16):
thriving because theirenvironment at home was created
specifically to be just the waythey liked it, so they had
ultimate control over thelighting and the temperature and
the noise, and they didn't haveto commute anymore, and they
were getting more sleep and restand they were dressed more
comfortably.
Do you remember like I don'tknow about you, but I was in my

(13:38):
boots and my trackies duringthat time?
Um, and overall, these peoplewere just presenting as less
stressed, and all of that in mymind was coming together to it
was all helping them be moreproductive.
And what happened in that twoyears was that we smashed our

(13:58):
fundraising targets two years ina row over that COVID time in
an environment or a situationthat we hadn't been in before,
and it just became reallyobvious to me that when you make
an environment more flexible,you're going to set people up to
be more successful andeveryone's going to win.
So, and then I had, not longafter that, two of my siblings

(14:24):
get their formal diagnosis asneurodivergent and I thought,
wow, okay, I need to look atthis for myself, particularly
when I learned that more than80% of neurodivergence is
genetic.
And then things just startedmaking so much more sense.
So, long story short.
I started Unify 360 because Irealized that people, and

(14:48):
particularly organizations, justneed more support to be places
where everyone feels like theybelong and they're valued.
And this whole idea of you knownot in spite of your difference
, but because of your differenceyou want to be valued for the
difference that you can bring.
So that's kind of what startedyou know the journey that you're

(15:08):
on.
Yeah, that's a lifelong kind ofroadmap.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yeah, it's interesting how it works.
I think that, you know, we'veall experienced, you know, the
thing.
I think what it is is just thelack of understanding.
You know, people don't realisethat, hey look, will's going to
perform so much better when he'sin this environment.

(15:37):
I remember I was working in aworkplace and there was this
woman who would just play musicall day long like the radio out
loud in the office.
And I just remember sittingthere thinking I just can't
concentrate, and if I had said,look, can you turn that down, I
would have been the worst personin the world, you know.

(15:58):
So it's real.
And I look back at it now andI'm like, yeah, no wonder I got
nothing done because I had thisdistraction there.
I was in this open office andyou know it was just so.
I suppose, well, it makes sense, because I didn't even know I
was ADHD at that point.
But now it's like, oh my God,now I can see why I really

(16:21):
struggled with that.
But you know what?
Now I can see why I reallystruggled with that.
But you know what, moving onfrom that, you know, I think, a
big thing, especially with whatwe're talking about here today,
why is inclusive leadership.
Sorry, what is inclusiveleadership and why does it
matter?
Now, I will just sort of go onfrom that.
I think from what I've learntis that there is a difference

(16:46):
between a leader and a manager.
Do you know what I mean?
So like I'm interested to seewhat you've got to share about
this.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, Well, there's sort of two forms of leadership.
There's that really traditionalform of leadership and that
traditional form of leadership.
It really focuses on, you know,setting goals, we're driving
for results and we're, you know,in a fairly standardised kind

(17:17):
of way, whereas it's not verypeople focused, it's not very it
doesn't put the person at thecentre of that.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
I'd almost call them a manager.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
That's exactly right, you know I wouldn't even call
that leadership.
Well, yeah, exactly.
And so whereas we look atinclusive leadership and that
takes a big step beyondtraditional leadership because
it's bringing in elements ofempathy, awareness and it's

(17:48):
being really I like the wordintentional about inclusion, so
consciously deciding to includeso inclusive leaders, they see
the individual, they value theindividual, they see the person
and they're actively andintentionally creating an

(18:09):
environment or a space or, youknow, a workplace where people
are feeling comfortable beingthemselves, where they're valued
, for you know how I was talkingabout.
You know bringing their trueselves to work their unique
strengths and and so they canmake sort of contributions that

(18:30):
are appreciated.
It's not about treatingeveryone the same, it's about
respecting differences, andthey'll let.
A true leader will adapt theirapproach to bring out the best
in each person.
So they have to give a damn fora start.
Okay, so if we take I likeusing communication as an

(18:54):
example, so a traditional leaderor a manager will just have a
one-size-fits-all communicationstyle.
Here are my instructions thisis what I expect everyone to be
doing and you're going to adaptto communication style.
Here are my instructions thisis what I expect everyone to be
doing and you're going to adaptto my style, whereas an
inclusive leader does theopposite.
They're going to consciouslytailor their communication to

(19:15):
meet the needs of the personthey're communicating with.
So if they know, like a teammember's neurodivergent and
they've bothered to get to knowthat person and they know that
that person prefers morestructured, step-by-step
instructions which I know a lotof neurodivergent people I know

(19:36):
do right or they might prefercommunication in a written form
rather than verbal, theinclusive leader will take that
into account when they'recommunicating, and the same goes
with how they give feedback andhow they recognise people's
strengths, for example.
And it matters.
I think that was your question.

(19:57):
Why does it matter?
I think it matters so muchtoday because people want to
feel like they belong at work.
I mean, who doesn't?
Who goes to work and says tothemselves you know, I hope I'm
made to feel really different orweird or not good enough or not
valued.
Today, you know, no one goes towork saying that we all want

(20:19):
that sense of belonging and moreand more we're just seeing
people more consciously lookingfor workplaces where they feel
psychologically safe to.
You know, safe enough toexpress their ideas without
being scared of how that's goingto go down.
And the reality is teams thatfeel supported and included.
They tend to work bettertogether.

(20:39):
They take, they stay moreengaged and they're they're
often more innovative.
So to me you know, the businesscase for inclusive leadership
rides itself.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
See, the biggest thing I see is that when I see
inclusive leadership, you've gotto live and breathe it.
You know you can't just be like, okay, we've got this program
where we support neurodivergentpeople, for example, and we're
going to comply, and you know,but this is who I am, this is

(21:12):
what I need to be like, and whenI'm, when I'm, who I'm
referring to is like the manager.
Right now, this is how I am.
But you know, what you saydoesn't really apply to me, but
we'll work in with you anyway.
You know, I think that's what Isee a lot of, unfortunately, and

(21:33):
I don't think they see theproblems that they're actually
creating from being that we knowthat with neurodivergent people
or it's not even justneurodivergent people, it's,
it's people in general if we'reable to work in with them rather
than the other way around, yourteam is going to be so much

(21:55):
more productive all all together, if that makes sense there.
But I'm seeing still so manypeople are just like it's got to
be like this.
We've got the KPIs.
It's got to be like this.
No, the person has to come inon this day.
No, they're not allowed to sitthere, you know so flexibility,

(22:17):
you know as well.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
I think so it's being interested.
It's not my way or highwaymentality, it's, you know, every
person is a lock and a key andif you, if you can find the key
to that lock, you can unlockthat.
So that's why I think um, youknow, I had a brief this week

(22:38):
from a company looking fortraining and one of the
questions you know when I askedwhy, why are you looking to do
this training right now?
because I always like to try andget into what their intention
is or what's driven it.
And they said oh, we want youknow, we've had one person
disclose recently and we want toknow how to better manage them,

(22:58):
but we also want to know how wedon't let them manipulate us.
And I said what does that mean?
And they said oh well, you know, we, we don't want them to say,
um, I've got autism, so I can'tdo this bit of my job and I
can't, I don't want to do thisbit of my job and I don't want
to do this, I don't do it likethat and I thought this isn't

(23:21):
coming from the right place.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
This is not an inclusive leadership yeah, I
probably would have said look,um, I don't think I'm the right.
And I've told people in thepast that I've asked them hey,
what do you want this for?
You know?
And I've told people look sorry, um, I don't think I'm the
right person to um, teach thisfor you.

(23:44):
And I've actually cut tiesbecause I think the big thing
for me is especially especiallywith my company, is our values.
If a company doesn't fit inwith our values, what we're
trying to do, especially withsocial impact, they're not going
to meet that.
We're only going to faceproblems by doing business with

(24:05):
them.
So there's been times whereI've said look, you're not the
right people for us.
They've probably been like whatthe hell's wrong with this guy?
Doesn't he want to make money?

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, it's very much the people.
What you wish for, right,because you've just got to have
that alignment.
You've got to be coming fromthe social model of disability
headspace rather than themedical model of disability
headspace.
You don't want to be enabling,you want to be um, compassionate
and caring um, rather than sortof taking that liability risk

(24:36):
management really, you know,quite brutal um yeah yeah, yeah,
yeah sorry, I've just yeah,I've just had, um, oh, tucker.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
Tucker was on a few few weeks ago, um, so he's just
wrote through.
That's horrible.
How do you encourageorganisations to be so deficient
Does that say deficient,deficit or deficit focused and
see it as a strength?
Strengths based on.
What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Well, I do In my training.
I take them through right atthe beginning of the session
what the difference between themedical model of disability and
the social model of disabilityis.
And that's a headset shift,because medical model of
disability is a deficit modeland the social model is an
enabling model and a positivemodel.

(25:25):
So, without having to talk tothe people, I talk to these
models and I say where thecommunity wants to come from is
the social model, because it'sso much more enabling.
It doesn't point at the personand say you're the problem.
It says it's the disablingenvironment that is the problem.
And that's where we need to beas organizations and individuals

(25:46):
and change agents within thatto be coming at it from an
enabling place and coming from.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
Do you know what right?
Do you know what right?
Like?
So I was doing some worksomewhere I'm not going to name
the place because I'll probablyget into a lot of trouble but I
did this work not throughNeurodiversity Academy, through
someone else and when I gotthere, the manager came up to me

(26:15):
.
Like it was like this person,staunched, came up to me and was
like, oh you know, we don't,we're not ready for
neurodivergent people at thisworkplace, and I'm talking about
all this stuff.
And they're like, yeah, look,we can't have dyslexic people
here because there's lots ofreading involved.

(26:37):
And I'm just like.
I was like ready to go, where'syour door?
Um, I think I better leave, butI needed the money at the time.
So I was like damn, I'm to haveto work with this.
But it ended up turning outthat I had to end up quitting in
the end because the person Iwas dealing with just had no

(26:59):
concept about people management.
I don't even know why they werein the position that they were
doing because they wereabsolutely hopeless, but this
person just was.
You know, it blew my mind thatthe general managers and all
that had no concept how bad thisperson was causing, how much

(27:23):
bad stuff this person wascausing within their
organisation.
It just blew my mind.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
Yeah, especially when they're in positions of power.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
You know, yeah, well, that was where I got to in the
end.
I was just, like, you know,like this person, like a big
thing, especially when I didtraining with this person.
I spoke about the importance ofcommunication, how we

(27:54):
communicate, all of this becauseI knew this person was going to
be a problem.
And this person ended upabusing me in front of like
everyone in the office and Ijust was like stuff, this, see
you later, quit, never set footin that place ever again.
And you just can't.
Oh, yeah, yeah, totally, andI'm just like all right, see you
later, you pack of idiots.

(28:14):
Good luck finding a neuroinclusion consultant out the
door.
That was months ago.
These people are still lookingfor a neuro uh, neuro inclusion
consultant.
So I can tell you right nowthey're gonna be struggling to
find someone.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Wow, but anyway, moving on from that, why should
leaders consider neurodiversity?

Speaker 2 (28:41):
I often think about neurodiversity as this sleeping
giant in organisations, becauseoften they don't realise that
just below the surface is allthis potential that they haven't
tapped into.
They're just completelyoblivious to it or missing it.
Because neurodiversity andneurodivergence is a huge asset

(29:03):
in any workplace.
You know the stats in Australia.
You know 20% or one in fivepeople are neurodivergent.
So the chances are pretty highthat every team has
neurodivergent talent in it andoften they're the ones who can
bring the fresh perspectives andthe unique strengths, like so

(29:26):
many problem solving, creativeproblem solving, out-of-the-box
thinking or just an incredibleeye for detail.
They're the things that cangive a team or a company, an
organisation, a competitiveadvantage.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
So who doesn't?

Speaker 2 (29:38):
want that.
The key is unlocking it, andthat's how do you better support
and encourage different stylesof thinking, not same-same
thinking, you know, that sort ofmanager thinking versus the
inclusive leader thinking,because diversity of thought
does nothing except strengthenorganisations.

(30:01):
And I heard the best thingtoday and that was that there
are some progressiveorganisations out there, and
thank goodness, because thatbalances out in the types of
organisations you were justtalking about.
But have you ever heard of theCliftonStrengths assessment?
No, okay, cliftonstrengths islike.

(30:24):
It's a tool that's beendeveloped to help people
discover their unique talentsand strengths.
And so I've done it before.
I did it about 18 months ago,and it gives you your top, your
35 strengths, and it lists themin order of the strengths to
your weaknesses and you get yourtop five.
And what these organisationsout there are doing at the

(30:46):
moment is using that in theirrecruitment process to
deliberately bring morediversity into teams.
So, um, you might say, okay, weknow that kim and joe excel in
strategic thinking andrelationship building with.
We're good, we're good forthose talents, we don't need any

(31:06):
more, we've got those covered.
What can we?

Speaker 1 (31:07):
do to fill these strengths here?
Yeah, so what we?
What we don't need anymore.
We've got those covered.
What can we do to fill thesestrengths here?

Speaker 2 (31:11):
yeah, so what we, what we don't have enough of, is
um, empathy and analyticalskills.
So let's identify thosestrengths in our candidates and
so, if you take that approach,you're going to have the
strongest team possible, becauseyou're consciously covering the
gaps.
And I always come back to thatsame line like, just like we I

(31:32):
say this all the time in myworkshops just like we need
biodiversity in nature for theplanet to be healthy, we need
neurodiversity of thought forthe human race to be successful.
So, yeah, thank God someorganisations are finally
starting to switch onto it.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
Yeah, see, the only thing I find is that who are
those organisations?
You know, it's so hard to, andsometimes the organisation and
this is another thing sometimesthe organisations who say they
are actually neuro-inclusivearen't neuro-inclusive at all.
You know what I mean.

(32:12):
So that's really hard.
Yeah, they're like, yeah, we'redoing this, but then you get in
there and it's complete garbage.
Hence what I found out when Iwas doing some work with an
organisation not long ago.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
And that's the only thing you can't know until
you're in there and you'regetting under the bonnet and
you're looking at everything.
You know the rawness.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
And this is the thing like neurodivergent people are
going to see straight throughthat crap.
You know they're going to comeinto a workplace and be like
hang on, I thought you guys knewabout neurodiversity.
Yeah, you're doing all of thisand you're doing all of that.
If that makes sense yeah, yeah,yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
I mean, it's easy to say, isn't it?
But um the proof's in thepudding and um so many
organizations have so far to go.
I feel like we're right at thetip of this yeah long way, long
way to go.

Speaker 1 (33:05):
I think and I I did a presentation um a few and I'm a
very big believer in it has tobe a top-down approach.
If you're not getting thatsupport from the top there,
there's no point just coming inand going, hey look, let's get
the managers or what I wasdealing with education.

(33:25):
So they're like, look, we needto get the teachers trained up.
It's like, yeah, okay, thatwill help them a little bit, but
if there are other things inplace there, we're still going
to have big problems therebecause the teachers aren't
going to be able to do theirjobs as effectively and in the
workplace, the managers aren'tgoing to be able to do their

(33:47):
work as effectively if you don'thave these other mechanisms in
place.
If that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Totally agree with you Top down has to be.
You've got to drive it becauseotherwise pushing up from down
here it's just almost impossible.

Speaker 1 (34:06):
Yeah, totally, totally, totally.
So, moving on from that, whatbasic steps have helped create a
neuro?
Sorry, what basic steps helpcreate a neuro-inclusive
environment?
We just spoke about one of them.
I can tell you that much.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yeah, yeah, top down.
Look, I've had people say to methat, oh gosh, it must take a
lot of time and a big budget tokind of create a neuro-inclusive
environment.
But I say to them that could bemore further from the truth.
You know, you don't have tomake massive or expensive
changes to what you're doing.

(34:42):
You can start by making small,what I call just thoughtful
tweaks that help everyone feelmore supported.
And some of the morestraightforward ones that I talk
about with people include evenjust you know, we've heard it a
million times but just offerpeople more flexible work hours

(35:02):
or remote work options.
You know, we discovered duringCOVID the story I told about my
team at the beginning was thatwe by accident discovered that
that was really amazing, becausethat flexibility is just right
for people.
So you know, even if you justremove the commute element and

(35:23):
you let people choose whatenvironment works best for them
to do, which aspects of theirwork, you're going to enable
more productivity and focus.
Another thing thatorganisations can do that's
really cheap in fact it's freeis to.
We talked about communicationbefore, so just clear,
structured communication isalways really helpful because

(35:46):
it's going to allow staff tobetter understand what's
expected of them, and I'm notjust talking about
neurodivergent folk here, I'mtalking about everybody, you
know, clear, concisecommunication.
Let them know what you expectfrom them and plan their work in
a way that suits them.

(36:07):
Another simple step they cantake is to just, you know, do
what you do.
Do what I do is to educatepeople in the business about
neurodiversity.
So run a two-hour or a half-dayor a full-day workshop and give
everyone at least a basicunderstanding about what it is
and how to supportneurodivergent folk, because

(36:29):
that's going to what that does,is it drives, you know, there's
a lot of misconceptions.
I do this myth-busting sessionin my training where I go here
is, you know, I ask people totell me what the myths I've
heard about neurodivergence andneurodiversity and then I put up
the you know sort of top fivemyths, and so when you demystify

(36:49):
with training, um, you'reultimately helping people work
more effectively together.
Because, um, I know my sistershe had a colleague who just
completely misinterpreted herstyle and they were always kind
of never really communicatedvery well, and when she finally
disclosed and told her team thatshe was neurodivergent, the

(37:11):
relationship with this personcompletely changed.
She saw her through a differentlens, and so I think that
shared understanding and thatshared learning together just
brings people closer together.
So again, it's not about a bigoverhaul of the business.
You can start small.
You can make adjustments alongthe way to help people feel more
valued and empowered to dotheir work, and um doesn't have

(37:34):
to be expensive or overlydifficult no, no, no.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
I do like the point, like you were saying, that you
know, at least everyone, ifeveryone could have some basic
understanding of neurodiversity,I think that would help Because
, like I don't know how manytimes I was sort of in some
situations and when I wasdealing with some neurodivergent

(38:00):
colleagues I'm not colleagues,clients of mine, but you know
they were struggling withcertain things and it was
because the rest of the teamthat they were dealing with
didn't have any understanding ortraining on what they struggled
with, but their managers did.
Your mate here, who's your workcolleague, has no understanding,

(38:24):
uh, why you need to, why youenjoy sitting in that same spot
every time you come into theoffice, or why you're struggling
with so many messages comingthrough through your team's um
chat or whatever that looks like.

(38:45):
Um, so you know, it's it, itgoes to.
You know, I've even seen likebig managers who were like, oh
no, I don't need to do this, butum, training, what I mean.
And then they've gone and donethe complete opposite to what
has been needed to be done, notbecause they wanted to be rude,

(39:07):
because they had no idea whatthey were doing was wrong,
because they hadn't done thetraining, if that makes sense
yeah, yeah, I know, and they'reshooting themselves in the foot,
so you know fine they look likeidiots yeah, but you've got a.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
You know, meanwhile, the colleague who doesn't have
the awareness is resenting theircolleague for getting special
privileges or treatment orwhatever, because they don't
have the context of what's goingon.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
It just creates a really gnarky environment, which
isn't fair for anybody is it?

Speaker 1 (39:38):
Oh yeah, no, no, not at all.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
So it lacks a lot of compassion to just kind of
educate at one level but not doan all-staff version of it so
yeah the smarter organizationsare figuring it out.
They're cascading the trainingdown um.
Ideally, it starts atmanagement yeah, yeah, totally,
totally.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
And I look, I I understand that time can be a
factor.
Um, you know I there's beensome workplaces I'm dealing with
that they're just full sales.
You'd know what a salesenvironment's like and you know,
taking that time away for thosepeople to do this, they

(40:21):
sometimes be like it's not worthit because we're going to be
losing.
You know we're going to belosing money because we're not
reaching our targets or whateverlike that.
And it's like, well, you'reactually causing so much more
problems if you're only just totake out these small little
factors yeah, it's a reallyshort-term view, isn't it to to

(40:42):
go?

Speaker 2 (40:43):
uh, you know, because if you understand it, you're
more likely to lose peoplebecause of that culture.
So eventually you know howexpensive it is to replace
people.
Oh, yeah, of course, when youlose people because they walk
out the door because they don'tfeel supported.
That's it.
That's a huge cost as well.
So you this short-term viewthat you might be not making

(41:05):
sales and can't afford the timeto train people versus the
long-term impact of not doingthat training.
It's just delusional.

Speaker 1 (41:12):
It is that place I was telling you about before.
They had a very high staffturnover, no wonder, but it was
a very sink or swim type ofenvironment, you know, and I
often think to myself.
Well, I thought to myself whyare these people building a

(41:33):
neurodiversity program in thistype of environment?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, are you out of your mind?
You know?
I think there was a lot ofmoney talking there.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
I was going to say do you feel like it was just a
tick-boxing exercise?

Speaker 1 (41:49):
It was, it was, it was it was.
And that's where, in the end, Iwas like this is the biggest
load of garbage, because I'mgoing and speaking at
conferences, I'm on things likeLinkedIn Live, sitting on this
podcast talking to you about howwe should be doing stuff.

(42:10):
Then I go into this place andthis place does it the complete
opposite.
Do you know what I mean?
It's sort of like well, why amI here?

Speaker 2 (42:16):
I'm wasting my time.
Yeah, where's the credibility?

Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, totally, totally.
But with that being said, thereare some workplaces doing some
fantastic stuff, I believe.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
Oh yeah, there are.
I mean, I'm loving, I loveworking with progressive
organisations that you knowyou're not having to overly
convince them that this is theright thing to be doing, they
just get it.
And hopefully we still are atthe thin edge of the wedge of
that, I think.
But we're moving towards atipping point because, you know,
things around neurodiversityawareness and disability are

(42:53):
very much embedded in governanceand compliance law these days.
So organisations, whether theywant to or not, have to be
getting around it one way or theother.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
Totally, totally, totally.
It's the same in education now.
So with a lot of standards,especially in the vocational
education space, learningorganisations have to be
providing certain things, haveproper understanding, all of
that type of stuff, and as acompany, Neurodiversity Academy,

(43:26):
we're happy to help them withall of those needs by the way, I
would be very smart to book,you Will.
Oh, thanks for plugging me onthat one.
Yeah, Now, moving on from that,how does neuroinclusion benefit
the employee lifecycle?

(43:46):
Now we sort of touched base alittle bit on that, but we can
probably go a little bit more indepth, I think.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
Yeah, I mean neuroinclusion has just such a
positive impact on every stageof the employee journey.
So that's what we mean when wetalk about employee life cycles.
So we're talking everythingfrom the very front end.
So recruitment process, andthen we look at onboarding,
performance management and thenprofessional development, and
then we look at onboarding,performance management and then
professional development andthen retention right at the end.

(44:14):
So, in terms of recruiting, whenorganisations they actively
look for and they recruitneurodivergent talent because
there are a lot of organisationsout there that are doing that
now you know the SAPs, jb Morkand Chase, deloitte they've all
got programs where they activelyrecruit neurodivergent talent.

(44:34):
They're ahead of the curve.
They know that by doing thatthey're expanding the pool of
you know the perspectives in theteam.
So, like I mentioned before, weneed diversity of thought to be
able to access the mostpotential and the most solutions

(44:58):
.
So that's right at therecruitment phase, we need to be
looking at that.
And then during the onboardingprocess, a neuro-inclusive
approach means that you'reoffering you know very clear
instructions, you're showingflexibility, you're providing
supportive resources that aregoing to help the neurodivergent
person settle into their jobmore comfortably and we know

(45:20):
that when they feel more valuedand understood, they tend to be
more engaged and they tend to bemore loyal and productive and
that just makes for a strongerteam.
So overall, neuro inclusionjust strengthens every part of
the employee journey, um same asperformance management.
You know there's a way ofgiving feedback to people that

(45:43):
is going to be more sensitivethan brutal, and we know that
feedback, if given in a reallyclumsy way, isn't helpful for
neurodivergent A person couldquit.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
A person could quit, and we spoke about before how
expensive it is when people walkout the door.
These people will quit and theywon't give you a reason.
They won't say, oh, that wasthe feedback.
They'll just say, oh look, Ijust didn't like the job, but
really there's a whole bunch ofother things deep down inside.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
Well, I've got to tell you I've got a personal
experience about that because Iam one of those people.
I was one of those people wholeft an organisation because I
didn't feel what I brought wasvalued, the difference I brought
.
In fact, I had a very strongfeeling that my flavour of

(46:41):
difference, if you want to usethat term, was actually
unwelcome in the organisation.
I was headhunted to thisparticular job and on paper I
was told.
And during the interviews, Iwas headhunted to this
particular job, and on paper Iwas told.
And during the interviews I wastold that I was very
complementary to the strengthsof the team that I'd be going
into and that they were excitedabout what I would bring and
that they really liked the waysin which I was different.

(47:03):
So I got in there and theexperience couldn't have been
further from the truth.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
Totally, yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (47:12):
So I remember, you know, I looked at the way that
we'd do things and processes andI'd be asking questions Okay,
so why do we do things this way?
Or wouldn't it make more senseif we did it this way?
And I was coming from a placegenuinely of just wanting to
make a process better, moreefficient.
I could see a better.
Genuinely of just wanting tomake a process better, more
efficient.
I could see a better way ofdoing it.
And I was surprised to learnthat my manager would take those

(47:37):
things as a personal criticismof her work.
And we were just coming fromcompletely opposite places and I
was told off for questioningbecause I was told I wasn't
being a team player.
So that was a pretty crappyexperience and I realised that
it just wasn't a culture where Icould be myself.

(47:59):
So I needed to find a morehealthy environment where I
would be appreciated, and I amabsolutely sure that a lot of
people in your audience wouldhave been in the same situation.
Did you ever have an experiencelike that?

Speaker 1 (48:14):
uh, yeah, heaps, heaps of stuff.
I think, um, um, especiallywith that uh example that I gave
you before, yeah, um, Iremember when I first started
with that organization helpingthem build, um, what they wanted
to build around neurodiversity,I said, look, from the

(48:35):
beginning I said this isn'tgoing to work here.
I said you've got to put thisinto place, you've got to put
this in the place.
This person here, they willnever um, uh, work in with us.
No one listened.
They just kept on pushingforward and I just pretty much
turned around and said, no, seeyou later.
This is bull crap.

(48:55):
You know what I mean.
I'm quite vocal in that type ofstuff, but I just kind of stand
around and you know, especiallywhen it's something that I'm
very passionate about do thecomplete opposite or turn a
blind eye to it.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
Yeah, no.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
If that makes sense.
You know, I totally agree.
But I tell you what I think.
What you just explained was agood example of a manager versus
a leader.
So the person you were dealingwith that was a manager A leader
would have been able to take onthat and probably implemented

(49:34):
some of the feedback that youwere giving them, because you
knew you would have been seeingit from a completely different
lens and that information isvital to innovation.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
You would think I could see how it could save time
and money.
All right, and they lost thebenefit of that vision because
it was personal and there was alack of emotional intelligence
there with that person.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
It's really no, sorry you go.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
No, I was just saying it's just a silly, uh missed
opportunity.
You know, I mean in a way, andwhen you think about, that
happens countless times,thousands of times a day, in
organizations around the worldwhere ego gets in the way of um
advancement and evolution ofthinking oh, totally, totally,
totally.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
It was actually interesting because I spoke to
my.
I was speaking to one of myadvisory board members a few
weeks ago now and she was sayingshe said to me she goes, will
you're just so open to feedback?
She goes I would struggle withyou know, you don't know us from

(50:50):
a bar of soap and we've justcome into your company and
started like giving you feedbackon all of these things or what
you should be doing and all ofthat, and she goes.
I just can't believe how openyou are.
She goes I would never havebeen able to do that and I was.
I honestly just didn't thinkabout it that way.
I was just like I love thefeedback.

(51:12):
I said it's almost like for meand we spoke about this when we
first started you have so manyideas in your head and you don't
know if those ideas are good orbad.
And when you have people whoare able to say, hey, have you
thought of this or this and thator whatever, it just makes you.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
well, I know for me, it makes my brain open up even
more and go wow, I didn't eventhink about that, what a great
idea no, you're so right and I'mso grateful for you to you know
that you mentioned that idea tome as well, because I've just
started with my advisory groupon your suggestion and it's the
best thing, because I get up inmy head a lot and I'm in my own

(51:56):
echo chamber and you know yourattle around in your own brain
and being able to temperaturetest ideas and sanity check
things with other people is sogreat and they're all incredibly
generous with their time andreally genuinely interested in
the success of the business, soit's so refreshing, yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
I just love the fact, especially with an advisory
board how you're able to youknow you're able to get more
done, but then you're able to golook, this is what I've done.
What do you guys think?
Do you know what I mean?
And it's so good to be able togo?
Look, this is what I've done.
What do you guys think?
Do you know what I mean?
And it's so good to be able togo.
And sometimes I'm like look,please be open.

(52:35):
Don't think you're going tooffend me.
Just say how it is.
If you don't like something,tell me.
Or if I'm not saying something,and a lot of the time, what
I've picked up is that what I amdoing is completely right like
and I'm like, oh my god.
I must be doing the right thing,so it's almost a sigh of a

(52:57):
relief if that makes sense yeah,to get that validation that.
Oh okay, you know 90% of thetime I'm making good decisions,
yeah yeah, yeah, because I thinkas well, especially for us as
neurodivergent people, andespecially and I'm a lot better
than say what I was when I firststarted getting into the
neurodiversity space you're, andespecially when you're, because

(53:22):
with the neurodiversity space,like we spoke about before,
you've got the medical model,you've got the social model and
it's so hard, like.
I remember, like do you know aum, I think, a professor called
Professor Tony Atwood?
Yeah, I do, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So my first ever publicspeaking gig in the

(53:44):
neurodiversity space was a gigwhere I was speaking on the same
stage as him.
Oh, wow, I know right, I knowright.
And I remember thinking what'sthat?
No pressure?
Yeah, I was under pressure.
I was like, oh my God, oh myGod.

(54:06):
I remember having anxiety forthe whole day because I didn't
speak till the afternoon and Iwas like oh my God, oh my God.
And then when I got up and spoke, he was sitting right smack
bang in the middle front rowright in front of me and I'm

(54:27):
like, oh my God, I'm speaking tolike one of the world-leading
professors in like autism.
I wasn't speaking about autism,but you know, I was still like
this guy is like he is the.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
He's a god in space, isn't he?

Speaker 1 (54:43):
Yeah, totally, totally.
And I started off mypresentation and went through it
and it went really well and allof that.
And then, heaps, you know, Ishared, I did like a, a survey
and all these people that wrotestuff and I shared it.
And um, afterwards, um, Iremember walking off stage and

(55:04):
people coming up man, that wasawesome, we really loved that.
And I was like, oh my god, thatwas awesome, we really loved
that.
And I was like, oh my God, youknow what I think?
Yes, that guy's a professor andall that, but he hasn't lived
my experience, you know, andthat's where I think that, like,
our experience and what we knowcan bring so much to the table.

(55:28):
I don't even know where we wentoff on that tangent now, what
were we talking about?

Speaker 2 (55:34):
originally.
Oh, I don't know, I'm good attangents.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
Yeah, but it must have been something about like
not having the confidence forsomething.
Because I remember, like backwhen I first got into business,
it was, oh sorry, we weretalking about like why we first
got into business.
It was oh sorry, we weretalking about like why we've got
, like our advisory boards andhow they're able to validate us.
And I think, like now I'm sortof like, oh my God, I do know

(56:01):
what I'm talking about and Ihave heaps of confidence.
I don't need to be, but still Ineed those people to still go.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've gotthis, or maybe add this, or I
think this needs a little bitmore here yeah, I think they add
so much value.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
And guess what?
I think you know, when you weretalking about tony atwood, I
have a feeling you're going tobe that person, for for other
people down the track they'regoing to be you're going to be
that.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
I think you're going to be that.
Oh, I see what you mean.
Oh, I thought I was thinking,man, I'm going to be like some
professor or something.
I I will never be a professor.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
No, you know what I mean but just someone, because
you're, you're, you're going tobe such a voice.
You know you already are such avoice in this space and and
that's only going to continue toevolve and strengthen and I
think you're going to makesomeone nervous who's going to
share a stage with you one day.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
It's going to be, yeah, maybe, but I think once
they get to, once they like knowI think the good thing with me
is that I'm just once you sortof work out my personality, I
think you'd be pretty like calmand relaxed.
You'll know that you don't needto be so hard up with me, if

(57:14):
that makes sense yeah, yeah,yeah, the man.

Speaker 2 (57:17):
That's why I call you the man, the myth, the legend
the man, the myth, the legend ehit is I gotta admit, it is
pretty.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
it is pretty weird for me when I meet people and
they're like, oh my God, it'syou.
I follow all of these things ofyou, and I'm like, oh really,
because to me I'm just me.
Well, it was funny.
My mother was telling me onetime she was like leaving some

(57:43):
organization and the person musthave known who I was and the
work I do.
And the person was like, hey,you're Will Wheeler's mum,
aren't you?
And like for her that was weirdto sort of hear, because I'm
just her son, you know what Imean.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
When she realised you had a celebrity son.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
Maybe not quite celebrity, yeah, but maybe one
day we'll see.
But look, moving on, we arepretty close to finishing here.
So what are the long-termbenefits of inclusive leadership
for organizations?

Speaker 2 (58:19):
yeah, the long-term benefits are huge.
Look, we know that workplacesthat are inclusive tend to have
higher employee engagements.
Uh, they have lower turnover.
They're more innovative.
All of the research that is outthere supports that.
So what's not to love is what Ialways ask.
You know, it's basic humanpsychology really.

(58:41):
So when people feel valued andincluded, they're more likely to
stick around and that justslows down.
You know that revolving door wewere talking about before of
people leaving.
It slows that revolving doordown, which saves money, because
we talked about you know allthe costs associated with
turnover and you'd know it'sjust expensive to lose people.

(59:03):
So, inclusive workplaces we knowthat they're also more
adaptable because they embracedifferent perspectives and idea
and that really kind of setsthem up to being more resilient
long term, because change isinevitable.
But resilient organisationswhether that change much better

(59:23):
than organisations that are shutdown to change.
And we also know that from alot of research in the space
that companies that aregenuinely inclusive they build
stronger relationships andreputations with their
stakeholders, so clients andcustomers and potential staff.
So it's not just good forpeople, it's great for business

(59:46):
and I think of it as sort of aripple effect.
You know you build a culture oftrust and psychological safety
and respect for people.
It's going to set you up forlong-term success.

Speaker 1 (59:59):
Yeah, totally.
It's actually interestingbecause I would definitely say
it's the same in education.
So in higher education, ifwe've got more you know.
So in higher education, ifwe've got more you know,

(01:00:26):
neuro-inclusive like, I suppose,people knowing about
neurodivergent students thatcould actually open up a lot of
these learning organisations tomore funding, certain grants,
maybe.
There's so many possibilities,but trying to get that across is
definitely the difficult part.
I'm slowly getting there.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
Sometimes it feels a bit like you know, cracking your
head on a brick wall.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
I'm sure it is.
It is, it is, and I've beencracking my head on a brick wall
for a lot of years.
Now I am starting to see alittle bit more change, you know
, and I think, especially fromwhat it was 10 years ago it's a
hell of a lot more forward.
So I'd like to see what itwould be like in another 10

(01:01:13):
years.
I think we'll be right on trackthen, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
I hope you're right.
I hope even before then I'm notsure if I'm going to be saying
it in another 10 years.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
I hope so too.
I really hope so too, for thesake of my business and all of
that stuff.
Yeah, same.
But look, Kate, thank you somuch for coming on today.
It's been great chatting withyou.
Now, for people who might wantto connect with you and find out
a little bit more about yourwork, where can they go to?
Where can they find out who youare?

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
Yeah, sure, if folks want to learn about Unify360 and
the work we're doing, they canvisit our website.
So that's unify360 and the workwe're doing.
They can visit our website.
So that's unify360.comau.
We've got information on all ofour programs, including got
just released a new virtuallydelivered program called Neuro
Inclusive People Leadership.
We used to run thatface-to-face, but we were asked

(01:02:04):
by some clients if we could makeit more accessible, so now we
run it virtually as threetwo-hour sessions over three
different dates, which is justeasy for people to fit into
their busy schedules.
I'm also on LinkedIn and Ishare a lot of insights and
resources about neurodiversityand inclusive leadership, so
people can feel free to contactwith me.
Get in contact with me.

(01:02:25):
I'd love to hear from them.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
Yeah, awesome, you rock, kate.
What's the plan this afternoon?
Off to the Espy for a few beers, eh.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
Whoa, I was there on yesterday, not today.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
Oh, you were at the Espy, were you?
I was, were you watching a band?

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
No, just outside.
It was a beautiful day, socatching up with friends out in
the front, but the music washappening.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
Does it still smell like stale beer?

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
No, it's had a huge reno, so it's much more
acceptable, oh really.
Yeah, much more acceptable.
Not a sticky carpet pub anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Oh, good, good, good, good good.

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
You'll have to come there next time you're in
Melbourne.

Speaker 1 (01:03:03):
Yeah, hopefully.
I'd like to Wait, I reckon.
For some reason I always seemto stick to just the city.
But I will make, because I'vebeen able to work out your tram
system.
now Back in the day I couldnever work it out because your
tram system runs on numbers.
Am I correct, correct, soyou'll catch the 11 to wherever,

(01:03:26):
or the 32 to wherever that'sright, catch the 11 to wherever,
or the 32 to wherever that'sright.
Where, say, in Sydney, forexample, you would catch the I
don't know the Kensington trainor the Tullawong Metro.
Do you know what I mean?
It's by name, not number.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
It makes sense, it's a little easier to follow, isn't
it, when it's by name.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
But I don't know, it is a little bit because you're
like, oh well, I need to just gothere.
Just remember the number 96,because that goes past the SB.
Okay, cool, the 96, the 96.
But yeah, I've got it down patthere.
Now, when I was down inMelbourne last, I'm like I want
to work out how to catch thetrams.
It's just sometimes hardknowing where to get off, sure,

(01:04:13):
but but it's getting there, it'sgood, okay.
Thank you, yeah, cool, okay.
Thank you so much for coming.
It's been a pleasure and forany of our listeners, if you
haven't already done so, pleasesubscribe, like and follow to
all of our social mediaplatforms.
Also, please check us out andrate us on any podcasting
platform.
My name is Will Wheeler andthis is Neurodivergent Mates.
Till next time.
Also, please check us out andrate us on any podcasting
platform.
My name's Will Wheeler and thisis Neurodivergent Mates.
Till next time.