The Importance of Neurodivergent Teachers - Katie Fleet

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🎙️ Next on Neurodivergent Mates: The Importance of Neurodivergent Teachers with Katie Fleet 🎙️
 
In this episode, we’re joined by Katie Fleet, a passionate educator and advocate for neurodivergent teachers. We’ll dive into her journey as a neurodivergent teacher, exploring the challenges, strengths, and impact that neurodivergent educators bring to the classroom.
 
Katie will share insights on how neurodivergent teachers can drive meaningful change, why all educators need neurodiversity training, and what parents and schools should know about embracing neurodivergent educators. Plus, she’ll offer valuable advice for fellow neurodivergent teachers navigating the profession.
 
Tune in to hear Katie’s story and discover how neurodivergent teachers are shaping the future of education! 🎧✨
 
Questions asked during the podcast:
 
• Share a bit about yourself
• Tell us about your work
• What’s it like being a neurodivergent teacher?
• How can neurodivergent teachers create change?
• Why do all teachers need neurodiversity training?
• What should parents and schools know about neurodivergent teachers?
• Advice for other neurodivergent teachers?
• Where can people find your work?

Brought to you by Neurodiversity Academy

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to Neurodivergent Mates.
Hello, Do we have?
No, it's working.

(00:26):
Can you hear me?
Okay, Katie?
Yeah.
I can All right, sweet, oh myGod, oh my God, sorry, everyone.
So if you're only justlistening to this now, we came
in live probably about fiveminutes ago.
There was all this terriblereverb going on.
Five minutes ago, there was allthis terrible reverb going on.

(00:50):
I have no idea what was goingon, so we just canceled the
whole thing, had to redo a newum link and all of this stuff,
and we're here now.
So I apologize for anyone whowas listening beforehand and um,
you had to listen to all ofthat because it would have
sounded like ripe garbage.
But look, welcome toNeurodivergent Mates.
It's 2025.

(01:10):
We're on our fourth season.
So awesome stuff.
But I tell you what not asawesome as the guests we've got
here today.
Join with my awesome friend,katie Fleet, to talk to us about
the importance ofneurodivergent teachers.
Katie, what's going on, myfriend?

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Hey, thanks for having me.
I'm very excited oh well, youknow what?
I was really starting to stressfor a bit there.
I was really stressing, we gotsome good.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
It sounded like a Daft Punk, apparently a remix.
Yeah, yeah, totally, totally so, oh my God, oh my God.
So, yeah, you know what?
There's nothing worse than youknow, especially doing a podcast
and being a podcast host,especially when you're going
live and things like that justhappen out of the blue that you
least expect it.
And then, yeah, you've just gotsome issues and you have no

(02:07):
idea what's going on.
But look, we're here now,that's the main thing.
And, um, we're ready to rockand roll, you know.
But, um, look what, what's been, what's been happening with you
so far?
How was your christmas?

Speaker 2 (02:21):
oh, christmas was good, as we were just talking
about off air and I'm abouteight months pregnant, so just
uh, thriving and surviving goodjob, good job.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
The thriving and surviving will probably kick in
after the nine months correct.
That will just be normal life,I'm assuming well, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
It'd be interesting to see how motherhood as someone
with ADHD and dyslexia goes.
But I'm excited.
I think it will be lots of funand maybe some challenges.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
I'm sure you'll be a natural.
My friend, I'm sure you'll be anatural.
Will the kid be born holding akite surfing?
Because you're a big kitesurfer, correct?

Speaker 2 (03:04):
I love kite surfing.
Yeah, she'll be in the waterfrom day one, I think just yeah
yeah, yeah yeah, awesome,awesome, awesome.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
But look, thank you so much for coming on.
Thank you so much for being sopatient with all those technical
difficulties before.
Like I said, that's not anormal thing within the podcast
here, but, um, but awesome stuff.
But look, before we get started, I will just do a little bit of
housekeeping for any newlisteners out there.
If you haven't already done so,please subscribe, like and

(03:34):
follow to all of our socialmedia platforms.
We're available on tiktok, ormaybe not tiktok, if you're in
the united states, right, Ithink.
I think I heard some people saythat, um, it's now back up in
the united states, so, um,interesting time.
So if you're in the unitedstates, I apologize, you won't
be able to watch us there, butmaybe you will, who knows?

(03:56):
Um also to our available onfacebook, instagram, x twitch,
youtube and linkedin and, too,if you haven't already done so,
please subscribe, like andfollow to all of our social
media pages.
And please also go toneurodiversityacademycom to
check out all the work thatwe're doing there.

(04:17):
Another big thing, anotherimportant thing about having
Katie on today she's one of ouradvisory board members, so you
might be able to advise me onsome things I'm doing wrong with
the podcast.
What do you reckon, katie?

Speaker 2 (04:31):
No, I think you're smashing it.
But, very important, go to thataddress because Will's
constantly updating, uploadingand there's some fantastic
resources there which I thinkare going to help a lot.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Totally, totally, no, no, no, there is, so please
check it out, and we've also gotsome really big things on the
horizon too.
So, you know, if you can signup, it gives you a really good
chance to sort of keep up todate with what we're going over
as well.
Now also, too, just a littlebit of a warning for maybe some

(05:02):
listeners Some of thediscussions may be triggering,
so if you need help, pleasereach out to a loved one or call
emergency services.
We are not doctors.
This is a space for sharingexperiences and strategies.
Do you know what some of thefunny stuff about?
Well, not funny stuff, but like.
There's been a few times whereI've read that and I'm like,

(05:23):
well, actually, the person we dohave on is actually a doctor.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
I'm going to say now, not a doctor Will, so no
responsibility between the twoof us.
But I think, yeah, veryimportant things to do, very
true, very true.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
It's definitely good to cover that type of stuff.
So also, too, if you've got anyquestions, please put that you
know.
If you're listening to us onwhatever social media platform
you are while we're going live,please just shoot it out in the
comments there.
Ask any questions you mighthave, maybe share some of your
experience if you've got some.

(05:59):
That would be really cool aswell.
So, katie, you ready to rockand roll, my friend?
I'm ready, let's's go.
You're born ready, right, allright, so we might just start
with the normal one.
Look, you know, let's hear alittle bit about yourself.
You know what?
Who who is?
Who is katie fleet?

Speaker 2 (06:17):
I'm still working it out, but I'll give you the uh.
So my name is katie.
I'm obviously a POM Englishoriginally and then I've moved
to Australia for, you know, toexplore new things and meet
people like Will, which I'm very, very grateful for and I have
been a trained teacher forprobably about 12 years 15 years

(06:38):
seems to have flown by.
I was diagnosed dyslexic when Iwas seven years old and I only
received my ADHD diagnosis lastyear, which has been a really
interesting journey for me buthas definitely filled in some of
the gaps and, you know, made merealize why dyslexia wasn't
kind of lining up for me.
And yeah, I now work for AutismSpectrum Australia.

(07:02):
I do some work with you.
I still work on school boardsin the UK and, as you sort of
introed, my big passionate areais supporting neurodivergent
teachers and students in ourschools.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, totally, I think it's definitely an
important thing and, you know, Ithink the interesting thing and
we'll cover this more duringthe podcast and like I think
when you and I first sat downand you know you shared a lot of
like your experience as aneurodivergent teacher it was
actually interesting to hearabout some of the stuff that

(07:36):
you've come up against whiledoing that, and you know some of
the good, maybe some of thereally negative as well, which
really blew my mind.
But we will listen to a littlebit more about that in a sec.
But look, to tell you the truth, I would love to like hear a
little bit like you do some workfor Aspect.
You know I'd love to, you know,hear a little bit more about,

(07:59):
especially, the work you'redoing in the neurodiversity
space.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, so with Aspect I'm the National Evaluation
Manager in Education, so I lookat how we measure student
outcomes both in the wellbeingspace but also academically, and
that's a really interestingspace because it's highly
under-researched and have someamazing research colleagues like
Vicky Gibbs I'm sure peopleknow about that, about her and

(08:27):
her work and Chris Edwards andindividuals like that.
I'm all work in action researchso ongoing in schools,
supporting teachers.
The other thing I guess Ihaven't mentioned is I also work
casually at UTS, so Universityof Technology Sydney and
Torrance University, teachingstudents and that's probably a

(08:49):
big thing that we'll get intotoday is how do we support and
develop both neurotypicalteachers to understand the
challenges in classrooms, butalso how do we attract more
neurodivergent teachers and howdo we support them?
Also, how do we attract moreneurodivergent teachers and how
do we support them?
Because at present trainingsystems for uh, training
teachers who are neurodivergentare pretty.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
They're not great and that's not bagging out the
institutions, that's more on,you know how the requirements to
become a teacher are writtenyeah, no, interesting, sorry,
out of curiosity, I was justthinking right like you were
talking about, especially with,uh, the work that you do with
aspect, is that, um, you'reevaluating, um student outcomes,

(09:33):
probably their experiences, allof that.
How do you go about that,especially like you were saying,
um, there's very limitedresearch on that.
How, how do you make decisionson certain things when the
research just isn't there toback it?
Are you sort of like guessing,or is there some method in?

Speaker 2 (09:52):
place?
No, no, I think it's a reallyinteresting question.
It's still something we're atthe very early stages of.
Ultimately it is, you know,measuring growth within
education is down to the studentthemselves.
So it's that realperson-centered approach.
And I like to think of myself,as you know, how did I feel

(10:14):
growing up?
So, um, when I was assessed forreading as a dyslexic, oh my
gosh, like I didn't hit any ofthe national benchmarks, any of
the outcomes, I was always thelabelled failing, um.
So it's really important wemove away from those labels
where we pigeonhole childrenagainst the national curriculum

(10:36):
and instead we look at it, um,we break it down, we chunk it
and we're looking for justlittle pockets of growth.
They can be anything in anyarea and we're looking for just
little pockets of growth.
They can be anything in anyarea and we celebrate those and
we identify the areas where theyreally need support.
But I hope we're moving awayfrom the days where we look at
children as failing if they arenot meeting you know, each

(10:59):
milestone in every key learningarea, exactly when the
government tells us we should be.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
So if I think back to when I was in school, I was in
grade 12 and I I my reading isso much better now compared to
and I don't know how that sortof happened because, um, I don't
spend heaps of time reading,but my reading is just so much
better now than what it was inschool.
But I remember them saying like, oh, you're reading at a grade

(11:28):
5 level and when I was in grade12, if that makes sense, so are
you sort of saying that youdon't have that type of stuff?
You wouldn't say, hey, jimmy,so you're actually reading at
this level.
Come on, you need to get betterthere type of thing.
How does that process look?

(11:48):
Because you say you rewardpeople, rather than sort of say
what I just said there.
Because I can tell you rightnow, being told when I was in
grade 12 that I was reading at agrade 5 level.
That didn't help me to go.
Geez, I better read betterbecause I'm at a grade five
level.
That just made me go.
Yes, it's confirmed, I am afailure.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
I should really give up if that makes sense, and
that's a very common thing wesee.
So I mean we're moving away, Ihope, from this model of you.
Know we've got to hit theseoutcomes and the reason Will you
probably read much better nowis because you now read stuff
that interests you.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
So yeah, you're dead right.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
That is one of the biggest issues in teaching is we
have something calleddifferentiation where we can
change the curriculum a bit tosuit individuals.
But if your HSC English text isto kill a mockingbird I mean
english text is to kill amockingbird I mean mine was to
kill a mockingbird I can't say.
I really related to thesouthern states of america and
you know, I can't even rememberwhat it's about.

(12:54):
It's about justice, I think forindividuals in southern states
and probably a race argument.
So of course, I'm not going toread it very well because I
don't know the vocabulary, I'venever been exposed to it, I'm
not interested in it.
So what we're looking at whenwe talk about assessing outcomes
is that we're giving.
It starts from the, theexperience and the opportunities

(13:14):
we give children in the classto engage with something they
enjoy and interest, and a lot ofpeople associate that with
autism.
It's not just autism, alleveryone.
You don't have to beneurodivergent to want to read
things and we talk about readingdiets.
So you know, growing up I lovemagazines and I love to, you

(13:34):
know, read books about horsesbecause I loved horses and
sailing.
So for me, that's what got myvocabulary ticking, etc.
That's what got my vocabularyticking, et cetera.
But the way our curriculum isdeveloped at the minute, if you
have the further you go up, themore the texts are restricted,
and that's where the issues canreally come, because are we

(13:55):
actually assessing yourknowledge or are we just
assessing your engagement in apiece that we've given you?

Speaker 1 (13:59):
that you don't really you know, get to yeah, yeah,
I'm just trying to think back towhat I used to like, reading
back that.
You know what I think.
So this might sound weird.
I would enjoy reading littlearticles that stood out to me in
the paper.
Do you know what I mean?

(14:20):
I might see something can belike, oh, that's interesting.
And then, but I could never reada full, like what do you call
it?
Like a journal article,whatever it's called?
What do they call it when theywrite like a piece, a piece in
the paper, right, but I wouldread enough to just comprehend

(14:40):
what it was about.
And then I could be like Iwould see the picture.
I could never really read onesthat didn't have a picture.
If there was some interestingpicture there, I would then read
a little bit about it and go,oh, so that's what it's all
about.
Oh, interesting, you know.
But I could only read to, andeven now I would only read to a
certain amount to get like thegist of it.

(15:01):
Or I'll read the heading.
So say, if there's like 10things to to make you um, I
don't know exercise better, I'lljust read the headings and be
like, oh, okay, yeah, easy, youknow just little things like
that I think you know, I thinkthere's so many things that, in
a good way, with technologychanging, we have the options

(15:24):
and I this is where I'm reallyinterested.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
I think craig smith was on earlier, a colleague of
mine, his big area is ai and youknow using ai positively and we
were in a chat the other dayabout it's actually really
exciting because you will, youand I would see if you and I
sent each other a five-pageemail we'd probably put into
chat gpt and say what is willtrying to tell me please yeah,

(15:47):
whereas we would get fatigued,like five years ago.
I'd be like, oh my gosh, I'mgonna have to spend two hours
reading this, writing down whatwill needs and then, you know,
the adhd procrastination wouldkick in.
Then I might off put it.
So there's some really positivethings coming through, I, I
think, to supporters, but at thesame time you see universities,

(16:08):
especially, or the tertiarysector, saying you can't use AI
because it's cheating.
So the reason I'm probably notgiving you a clear answer on
assessment and all that is thatwe're in a really transient
change, really transient changeand I think it's exciting.

(16:30):
But we also need to if we stopusing things to help
neurodivergent people.
Again, that's another barrier.
Another, you know, the equityis still sliding, sliding,
sliding.
So when we think aboutassessment, whether it's in
schools, in universities, etc.
We really need to think aboutis it directed so that people
are interested?
Are people engaged and do theyhave everything they need to
learn the best they possibly can?

Speaker 1 (16:53):
now interesting.
So out of curiosity, right?
So you know my email I sent toyourself today, right?

Speaker 2 (17:02):
no, that was because I was engaged in it.
I you know I was interested.
I read it and I guess we'vespoken about this before.
My father is dyslexic as well.
We both have it.
He failed all of his hsc thefirst time around and then, you
know, 10 years later he gets aphd and he's written you know a
hundred thousand words about mud, rock and petroleum.

(17:22):
I cannot think of anything moreboring.
But to him he could do thatbecause he was so interested in
it yeah so that's a primeexample of and a lot of people,
I think, who are neurodivergent.
If you have a terribleexperience at school, you may
not go on to study, and if youdon't have a role model, you may
may not go and study, but youdo find a lot of neurodivergent

(17:45):
people in academia with theirPhDs because they finally got to
do something they love.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah, that is cool.
That is cool.
That is interesting too,Because the reason why I brought
up that email was I hadoriginally wrote it with just
chucking all my ideas out thereand it sounded so.
If you were to like read itwithout like um, before I put it

(18:12):
in chat gpt, you'd be like whatthe hell's will on about?
But I put it in there and Ijust said chat gpt, can you make
this more simple and easier tounderstand?
Like originally there wasn'tlike the headings.
You know how I had the headingsand that in that email those
weren't originally there and allthat.
But what I'm sort of getting atis that that's the beauty of

(18:32):
how technology is helping us toget a better understanding of
how to maybe present this tocertain types of people 100% and
there's so many things you knowwe're talking about the
high-end tech part of teachingand strategies, even things like
mind map or like visual cues.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
I I find them really.
I love a mind map.
I, you know, and people look atme the other day actually I did
one with colleagues in aplanning session and I stood
back and it was literally just.
It looked like someone whotried to draw a hurricane or
like a twist, oh really justeverywhere one of them said I
think we're gonna.
They're neurotypical.
I think we might have to redrawthis, just so the rest of us

(19:17):
can understand.
I'll take my copy, you do you?

Speaker 1 (19:21):
but you probably understood it.
Perfect, right, oh I loved it.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
I knew exactly what I was going to do.
I've got my project planned for2025.
I am clear, but they had to goaway and just get it in an order
.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
Sorry, just this is an unrelated topic, but I had to
laugh when you told me this hasyour father been asked to
assist in any births on planesrecently?

Speaker 2 (19:43):
Have I never told you .
Yeah, he gets lost, Sorry sorry.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
So for all of our listeners.
Right, we were talking abouthow like doctors get sorry.
Can you just hang on?
My cat, I think, is meowinghere.
I don't know what she's doing.
I think she might be stuckoutside.
Give me two secs, hang on, noworries.
What are you doing?
Sorry, my cat is like righthere, meadow.

(20:13):
She's like meowing.
I don't know what's wrong withher.
Off, you go.
Anyway, sorry about thateveryone.
Um, my, my cat has just come toum.
Come on, do you want to come up?

Speaker 2 (20:27):
is she a regular guest of the podcast?

Speaker 1 (20:29):
well, no, she's never been a guest of the podcast
well, no, she's never been aguest of the podcast.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
Here she is what's wrong.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
What's wrong, you know she's.
She's usually pretty good.
I've never heard her meowing somuch, but, uh, sorry so for all
of our guests.
So we were talking one timeabout, like you know, all these
doctors.
You may not even be a medicalum doctor, but you still present
on your plane ticket thatyou're a doctor, correct?

Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, I think you can now choose.
So he does take it off, becausehe has been bing-bonged before.
Yeah yeah.
I'm a doctor of rock, so ifthis lady's having a baby, I
really don't think I'm going tobe much help.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just thought that washilarious when you told me that
I'm like I wonder what the lookon the um air host that would be
like.
Oh yeah, true, true, anyway.
Everyone.
That's just us sidetracking onum adhd minds right there.
But look, let's move into thisa little bit more.

(21:33):
So what's it like being aneurodivergent teacher?
Out of curiosity.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
When you sent that question through.
It really got me thinking.
So I've obviously told youabout the experience I had my
first year of teaching in the UK.
I worked at a very posh privateschool and I was very careful
not to say anything.
And then one day it came out Idon't know how it came out and
the parents several of theparents made complaints because

(22:01):
they didn't want you know theywere paying I don't know £20,000
a year for their kids to beeducated correctly and they had
this dyslexic teacher who was,you know, educating and teaching
their children English, whichthey couldn't get over.
You know, a dyslexic teachingEnglish and it's not my
favourite subject to teach.
However, over the years sincethen I've really got into it and

(22:25):
I love it.
So I think, from a bias point ofview and I'll talk more to you
about this later, about how Ithink we feel we're perceived as
neurodivergent teachers andthat was really quite
challenging.
It really nearly led me, droveme, out the profession, that
experience.
Then I went to teach um, oursort of kindy kids in year one

(22:47):
in a public school and I lovedit and that was right up my
alley because it was very ADHD,very.
You know.
Grab some lego, let's playmusic, let's you know.
It was that whirlwind.
And I do think being aneurodivergent teacher really
depends on what your diagnosisis or your neurological

(23:08):
condition, as to what structureyou like, what environments you
you like.
But I think we all share onething, which is that burnout we
burn out much faster than aneurotypical teacher.
The stimulation imagine if youwere in an office with 30 people
talking at you all day, everyday.

Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, it's true, the stimulation is insane.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
My partner is a teacher, he's neurotypical and
he comes home and he spendsabout an hour just sat in
silence.
And I get it, because therewere days where I would, just,
you know, wouldn't go out, I'dspend the whole weekend at home.
And you know me, I'm verychatty and very bubbly, but the
burnout is incredible.
Just from the sensory overloadis a lot.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Out of curiosity, what was your favorite grade to
teach like?
What grades have you taught anddo you so?
What's like the preschool stuff, like that cool, or did you
prefer for high schools or?

Speaker 2 (24:06):
it's a good question.
So I've taught um year five,year six, so grade five uh, I
get confused.
New south wales were year five,year six, so grade five uh, I
get confused.
New South Wales were year five,year six, taught kindy.
I've taught year one, year two,and then when I went to work in
a specialist school I taught umteenagers with intellectual
disabilities.
Um, I probably I really likethem because it, you know, you

(24:28):
kind of were preparing them forlife and you could have those
kind of conversations.
But I do love kinder, year one,just because it's absolute
chaos and it's also the stuffthat comes out of their mouths
is amazing, like just things.
You're like, wow.
I remember a kid we made a roleplay area and their homework

(24:50):
was they had to go, it was forthe rainforest.
They had to go away, make arainforest creature and bring it
in on Monday.
And they're coming up andthey're showing me and we've got
, you know, the pythons and thepumas and all that.
Probably I don't see I'm sayingthings.
I'm still not sure if they'remeant to be in there, but
whatever.
And then this one girl broughtGod.
She'd made God and I was likeall and you know, and she just

(25:13):
went, miss Fleet, god iseverywhere, and I was like I
can't even argue with that.

Speaker 1 (25:20):
What did God look like?

Speaker 2 (25:22):
out of curiosity, I mean toilet roll with some wings
and a halo.
Oh, okay.
I love that.
You know their argument is sowell.
You know the rationale is soclever.
And who am I to say that thatis not the right thing?
Yeah yeah.
So yeah, I did love.

(25:44):
I just love their little mindsand where they're at and what
they think about.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah, like creativity would be pretty cool too.
Like wow, I never reallythought about that yeah, exactly
, they just um, I don't.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
I think all kids can be really interesting.
I probably don't quite like thewhen we get to that teenager
hormonal level.
That's not really me.
Uh, I more embrace the chaos ifI want to say, okay,
interesting, interesting.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah, I think high school would be very challenging
.
You know, if I think back towhen I was young, I was, you
know, and I think it was because, like, especially during
primary school, I had built upsuch a you know, I was one of
those kids who would speak backand, you know, swear at the
teacher and stuff like that butI think it was more because, not

(26:39):
because I was a bad person, butthere had been so many years
where teachers had treated melike absolute crap, that, but
some of them were great whereothers were just didn't give me
the time or effort.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
So I just built up this like, yeah, this attitude
type of thing, if that makessense yeah, and I think that is
probably an indication of ateacher is, you know, not loving
the profession, whilst you'realways gonna prefer some
students over the other.
I've never got to the pointwhere I'm like I really hate
that kid, like you know, and Ithink once you get there, you're

(27:14):
in, you're in a danger zone,because why is a kid acting like
that?
Probably will, because you'vespent so many years having to
mask and being told you're afailure because you didn't meet
expectations, the curriculum,etc.
So of course you're going to bea bit gobby and kind of have a
poorer experience so it's on usas professionals to understand

(27:35):
that.
You know, I think it's reallyimportant and I like the idea of
there's something called teamteaching, which is a bit of a
luxury, but it's where you mightteach a class you know half a
week and then your other teachercomes in, so it stops you
having that reaction to this kid.
That's really winding you up.

(27:55):
She finds someone who's kind ofgot the opposite love and
you're like cool, let's do this.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
like freddie is really irritating me today, and
someone will be like I lovefreddie, I'm gonna go in with
the sarcasm and I'm gonna yeah,and, and it was actually
interesting because I wasspeaking to this lady the other
day and she used to be an artsteacher at the school and she
said by the end of it she hadjust, I think she'd been doing

(28:22):
it for 20-something years.
She was just burnt out by theend of it.
But we were actually speakingabout this topic, about, like
you know, I feel that some ofthe teachers who really some of
them just hate their job andhave been there for years, can
almost have a negative effect onthat.

(28:42):
You know, that negativity ontheir role, hating it, can
almost have that effect on theirstudents as well.
Um, you know, I think I cameacross some teachers who were
close to retirement.
You know, they're not going toquit, go do another job for two
years and then retire, they'regoing to, you know, ride it out
type of thing.
And you could sometimes seethat with some teachers not all,

(29:05):
some were really great, butothers yeah, I definitely saw
that in them.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
And I think you know we've got to be careful.
I hate.
You know teachers are a reallycurious breed because once you
meet another you can be likeI've been on beaches on holiday.
You meet a teacher, I don'tknow from Canada and you're like
, straight away, you're into it,you get each other.
But every other profession hasthe same issues you know,

(29:31):
they're bitter, they're burntout there.
So it's really important andthat's something I'm beginning
to understand.
My ADHD is to recognize.
It's on me to recognize whenI'm burning out, when I need to
step away.
And yes, if you're nearingretirement, you might not have
the luxury of changing jobs, butyou can make you know there are

(29:52):
ways of changing your approachto things or doing things
differently.
So I guess I just want to pointthat out.
You know that it's.
It's not all about um so we'vegot.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
We've got.
Craig has come through with areally big um comment here I'll
do my best to read this out.
So he's wrote and, by the way,thanks he's craig for um for
reaching out.
You're a legend, my friend, solove katie fleet's comment on
evaluating neurodivergentstudent educational process from

(30:24):
an individualized standpoint,where standardized benchmarks
are replaced by sensitiveprogress markers that measure
growth in domain specific to thescope of the student.
The quality of impact andrequirements of this on a
non-standardized metric are sovaluable to consider.

(30:46):
Thank you so much for sharing.
Did I, did I do all rightreading that out?
I would?

Speaker 2 (30:50):
be nailed.
That didn't I nailed that, Inailed that didn't I, and that's
lovely because I know Craig andhe's a teacher, so it's lovely
to have that feedback.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah, no no, no, it's always good when people reach
out.
So, craig, thank you so muchfor sharing that.
But how can neurodivergentteachers create change?
Because you know we've shared alittle bit about what it was
like being a neurodivergentstudent teacher.
But how vital are these peopleto you know, creating this

(31:24):
change that you know I supposewe've been longing for for such
a long time in this industry.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
I think it's so important.
You know we want representationof neurodivergent people across
the board, but I think if therewas one thing I'd pin my hat on
is you know you and I will bothhad quite negative experiences
at school.
I'm sure a lot of ourneurodivergent listeners did.
If there was one argument fortraining neurodivergent teachers

(31:51):
, it would be to have those rolemodels, to have people that
understand, to have people thatcan teach differently and it
doesn't need to be.
My idea of different would beif I walked into a year six
class tomorrow, I'd take uhtexters, large pieces of paper
and we'd do mind maps, because Ican guarantee that quite a lot
of neurotypical teachers are notteaching that way and that's

(32:13):
fine.
They have their styles.
But we need to ensure we knowthat 10 to 20 percent of the
classroom are neurodivergent,whether they're diagnosed or not
.
So we need to ensure thatstudents are exposed to
different styles of learning andfor neurodivergent kids that's
great because they're going tosee, you know, it's going to

(32:34):
light a fire in them, hopefully.
But also our neurotypicalstudents need to understand
there's different ways of youknow doing things when they get
into the job market.
There's different ways ofrunning a workshop, engaging
with colleagues, and it's thatgeneral education about
neurodiversity and how ourbrains work differently that

(32:54):
breeds tolerance, that breedsexcitement.
I really hope you know a lot ofmy students at university don't
leave my classroom thinkingwhat a waste of an evening,
because usually they've drawn 55pictures and, you know, wrapped
something and done stuff thatthey wouldn't do in another
lecture.
So I hope that that's why weneed we need neurodivergent

(33:16):
teachers.

Speaker 1 (33:16):
For all those reasons , and I think, like going back
on your experience at that poshEnglish school.
I think this is where theseparents and maybe even the
school aren't realising thathang on, we've got.
At least a certain percentageof these kids are in, could even

(33:38):
be our kids, are in our classeshere.
They don't see the value whatthat brings either, which is
probably a hard thing to swallowas well.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, I think you know those schools are very
geared up and you know I'm a bigadvocate of people should
choose the education structurethey believe in and they believe
their children fit um, butthose schools are geared up
towards you know you get thebest grades, you go to the best
universities and then you gointo the job and you do, you
know the best you can.

(34:10):
Really you get to 35, none ofthat matters, does it as long as
you're earning for yourself andultimately it's all about
mental health and your life andyour well-being and satisfaction
.
We're very, I would say,neurodivergent.
People are the most motivated,most ambitious group of

(34:31):
individuals and I personally, mymental health has always
suffered when I've been put in abox or I've been expected to
reach.
You know this outcome.
I want to be free.
I'm glad I've trained andpassed exams, but it doesn't
define me.
I don't say, oh my gosh, I gotan uh, you know, 85 ATAR, woo,
that's not my label so, yeah,yeah, no, totally so.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
Just got another person who's commented, ryan
nicholas.
Um, this is a fantasticconversation.
It's great to seerepresentation on the teacher
side of the conversation.
No, thank you so much for umsharing that, ryan.
We really appreciate yourfriend.
Um, you know it's, it'sactually really interesting.
You say that right, because Iwas having a conversation with a

(35:17):
friend of mine the other dayand, um, you know, like,
obviously the last couple ofweeks or, you know, the
beginning of the year, um, allof social media, the papers, all
of that are all showing all thekids who got like the high
ATARs and all of that type ofstuff right, and I was talking

(35:37):
to a friend of mine about it andwe're like, you know, we see
all these, especially the bigprivate schools here in Sydney,
they're sharing like, oh yeah,we've got this and we've got
four students who got this right.
Now, you know what we werethinking about.
We were like, imagine whatthose kids life has been for,

(35:58):
however many years.
You know they're probably.
And you know, a good friend ofmine he went to one of those
real posh sydney private schoolshere and he said that you know
it's, it's, it is about thosegrades type of thing where you
know your mental health comessecond almost, and it's like

(36:18):
we're seeing these kids who aregetting these top marks.
What have they sacrificed toget those marks?
And how is that going to evolvein the future?
You know, because we sometimeswill see some of these kids.
Some of them may go on to somereally great stuff, but we may
even see some of them get intouniversity and then be like, oh,

(36:39):
or even further, once they getinto a job and be like, oh, my
god, studying out of a bookisn't what it's all about?
People skills and all of theseother important skills that you,
you learn besides, gettinggreat marks in school are just
as important, if not moreimportant, than getting good
marks, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, 100%.
And I think you know, verysadly, if you look at the
studies between suicide rates inyouths and you know academic
outcomes, it's very high,particularly in those Asian
countries where that is theexpectation, the culture, and
you know it's heartbreaking tothink that you would pin so much
on.
Obviously, everyone needs to beeducated to a level where you

(37:23):
know they can go out, they canbe part of society, enjoy life,
earn money to contribute to agreat lifestyle, but it
shouldn't be the be allall andend-all of life.
In my mind, and I think,teachers, we get into it because
we want to, you know, be partof growing society.
That sounds very cheesy, butwe're there to do a job, to,

(37:43):
like you know, grow up withthese people.
Um, we're not there to pump allthe facts then to be utterly
miserable.
Imagine if you work withsomeone and you just made them
utterly miserable and thentotally a horrible outcome.
That's not why we get into it.
We get into it to have fun andI would say, and I'm sure a lot

(38:04):
of teachers would say, you learnas much from the kids.
You know, I can still rememberthat kid and the role play
corner.
This is, you know, 12 yearslater and I still remember my
amazing student teachers, mytrainees that I've taught, that
really got it, because it justit's so.
You want to go to work withpeople that love what they do

(38:25):
and you know want to be.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, totally, totally.
So.
Ryan's just come through withanother thing, another big, big
one here, so I'll do my best toread this out.
I'm curious to hear what Katiethinks of the double empathy and
the implications of that in theclassroom.
As a neurodivergent teacher, Iget along quite well with my

(38:50):
neurodivergent students, andthere is just a gravity between
the way I teach and the way theylearn.
However, neurotypical studentsdon't always see the value of
how I teach and sometimes refusedirect neurodiversity education
.
Did I read that out?

Speaker 2 (39:10):
all right, yeah and that makes so.
I think there's two parts here.
There's the double empathy partand then there's the bit about
teaching.
So double empathy is somethingI come up again and again and
again with, where people reallyaren't understanding what I'm
saying, and I guess I spoke toyou about this before Christmas.
You know I find it really hardas a dyslexic ADHD person to

(39:32):
maybe talk to.
I don't know an autistic personor someone with OCD, because I'm
like, oh, we're all part of thesame crew, like we'll get it,
and actually we're not gettingeach other at all and it's
really challenging.
Um, but I kind of see it as ifwe want to move forwards as a
movement, as a group.
It's on me to try and reworkthat out.

(39:53):
Go away, have another thinkabout it.
And in terms of students, I getthis.
It's really interesting.
I taught a the last cohort.
I taught of student teachers anda couple of them were not
impressed with my teaching stylereally and said I'm going to a
ex-private school in sydney andwhat you're teaching me is

(40:15):
rubbish and I won't need this.
And I was like cool, well, youhave a great time if you don't
think like was that in uni?

Speaker 1 (40:22):
where were they just out of uni?

Speaker 2 (40:24):
they were doing their masters of teaching course, not
at one of the institutions I'vementioned, at another.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
okay, oh, okay, okay, yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
Or to get in trouble, but you know they generally
believed and that's fine.
Do you know what I think thereally cool thing about being a
neurodivergent teacher is?
I am trained to teach like aneurotypical teacher, but I also
have a toolbox of neurodiversethings.
I will use all my neurodiversetoolbox If I have to.

(40:52):
I'm going to teach neurotypicalstyle, but saying that you know
you're going to favor one orthe other and 90% of kids will
get something out of the way youteach.
So, yes, there might be a fewthat don't understand, but would
you have left others behind?
I feel like if you're in aschool, 90% of the teacher is

(41:14):
going to teach neurotypicalstyle.
So if I'm teaching neurodiverse, that's okay, because you know
they're getting it in otherlessons.
They can apply those strategies.
So I totally get it right,because I've come up and I've
had colleagues who are like whyare you doing that?
What?
Why are you using text as alesson?
They're 11 years old and I'mlike everyone.
The whole premise of educationis play and have fun.

(41:38):
I don't care you, and I wentinto a classroom tomorrow and I
got out lego to teach something.
You'd be in there, I know youwould be like everyone gets to
play like why, when, when willyou?
you know what age do you notwant to go and play?

Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, do you know what that is so interesting?
Because I had this reallyawesome teacher in grade three
and she was very hands-on andall that.
And I noticed a lot of theother teachers just didn't get
along with or didn't like herand I think it was because she
had such a different way ofdoing things, if that makes

(42:17):
sense.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah, and I do think it is hard if you're in an
environment where all theteachers and the kids are very
neurotypical focus.
This is how we teach and I hadto jump around through a lot of
settings to find the school thatwas right for me, the
environment that was right forme, and I had to reach out to
people on LinkedIn like you,like Craig, you know I had to
really give myself permissionand probably in my 20s in my

(42:43):
teaching career I didn't.
I fully thought I'm a teacher,I should be doing this and it's
not working.
Whereas double empathy justhaving a conversation with you
or having a conversation withsomeone I work with and saying I
don't understand why theydidn't get that, you know can
really unlock some more, butit's a hard concept and you may

(43:03):
never be able to smash it 100,but surrounding yourself with
people that get it is probablyhalf the battle.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
I can't believe those teachers you're talking about
were just like no, we're goingto this school, we don't need to
know this.
That is so.
It's almost like devaluingyourself because you're losing
really important skills thatcould help someone it is.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
But at the same time, I think that's the culture of
education in some settings.
You know, it's a verytraditional approach to
education and what it leads tois people that probably don't
think outside the box, don't,you know?
Haven't been exposed thattolerance.
It's a bit like you know thesame with religion.

(43:53):
If you go to a school that'sall white christians.
When you become prime ministerand you go on a you know nice
trip to I don't know islamabad,are you going to relate and do
the best kind of relations youcan?
Probably not because you don'thave a background.
So you know, it's again up tothe individual and the person to

(44:14):
breed tolerance and have anopen mind.
And I think that's the reallycool thing about neurodivergent
teachers is we are like sponges,we just want to do everything,
we want to have all theexperiences, eat all the food oh
my God, cultural day, when youknow trying it all, oh gosh,
yeah, like you know, that's whatwe live for know live for yeah,

(44:37):
no, that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
So this next question I'm pretty sure we've really
covered that why do all teachersneed neurodiversity training?
I'm pretty sure we've coveredthat.
Yeah, is there any more youwanted to speak on that?

Speaker 2 (44:48):
I guess my only reflection is that it's really
interesting to me how muchweighting universities put on
this.
What do?

Speaker 1 (44:56):
you mean weighting?

Speaker 2 (44:58):
Well, you'll find that in some degree courses.
So you have a Bachelor's ofEducation, you have a Master's
of Teaching.
So Master's of Teaching isusually two years, bachelor's is
four years in Australia and onthat course you could have one
or two hours of lectures aroundneurodiversity and that's it for
the whole four years.

(45:19):
You know you might do a bit ofbehavior, but I really believe
that we do need more um,especially as diagnosis rates go
up, we get a much more.
You know people become muchmore aware of.
You know neurodiversity, theneurodiverse movement, because
we're seeing people on TikTokand Instagram.
You know people are getting.
You know more neurotypicalpeople that might not be exposed

(45:41):
to that are understanding itand you know getting exposure to
it.
And it's interesting thenational teaching standards have
a very large block aboutdisability inclusion, all of
that, but we don't focus on thatat university and we may not
make that a priority in schoolsfor professional development
because there's so much else weneed to do.

(46:03):
I think that's the thing.
If I was to get on my soapbox,go to canberra and advocate, I'd
be pushing for a lot more of itin teacher training and ongoing
yeah, no, totally, totallysorry.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
We've got a lot of people uh commenting through
today you're popular katie fleet.
Um, it's the katie fleet fancrew, right?
Remember?
Remember?
I sent you through that um atthe at sometime last year.
Um, so craig has come through.
It's interesting too.
Um, building on what Ryan justasked, thinking about the idea

(46:38):
of personalisation rather thanthinking about a neurodivergent
style of teaching or aneurotypical style of teaching,
I wonder if it is more aboutgetting to know the individual's
personalities of each studentand adjusting teaching
instruction based on that, withfull recognition of how

(47:03):
difficult it is to do this withevery individual student, but
doing so in a way that doesn'terase all that we know I love
that.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
So I think what craig's saying there am I am
read out today I can do the nextone?
Um, it's.
It's about that person-centeredapproach which will is what
we've spoken about before, whichis knowing the individual
doesn't matter.
If you don't need a label, itdoesn't need to be like katie
fleet dyslexic.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
We spoke about this in the PD course that we
developed.

Speaker 2 (47:39):
Yes, 100%.
Yeah, exactly, we did that fortertiary educators.
It's not about labeling peopleor seeking.
It's about understanding whattheir needs are, what they enjoy
, and then tailoring yourlessons or your teaching to that
and then tailoring your lessonsor your teaching to that.
And I think you know it is hardwhen you've got a class of

(47:59):
maybe 26, 30 kids to really getinto the weeds of that and
finding the time and the space.
But Craig is right, that shouldbe our number one thing that
we're learning about our kids.
And you know when you're sat inthe classroom're watching, I
don't know Oliver flicking apencil, so I know immediately

(48:19):
Oliver likes to have a tangiblething yeah so am I going to get
the most out of him if I havelike a fidget box or something,
something like that?
um, it is really important andit really gets my goat.
When I go into schools and theyhave.
You know, you must have seenthese wills on the wall where
it's like about me and it's likehi, my name's Katie, I have a
dog and I live on the northernbeaches.

(48:41):
When actually it's like hi, myname's Katie, I don't do very
well with LED lights, I get aheadache and loud noises really
affect how I work.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
Yeah, yeah, well, that's what it should have,
right.
Yeah, work and yeah, yeah, well, that's what it should have,
right, yeah, no, I can't say.
I've seen too many of thosesigns in my um, in my adult
train, in my vocationaleducation classes, sorry, no,
it's, and it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (49:08):
We're looking for our baby, we're looking for
nurseries and the other day Iwent in and this nursery it had
a wall display on the UNconventions of the child and I
was like these zero to threeyear olds will not know what
that is.
Wow, everything was written intext, there was no visuals and
it just blew my mind that thisnursery in no way was inclusive.

(49:32):
They obviously weren't personcentred and I just said as soon
as we got in the car to mypartner absolutely no, no way.
Yeah, wow crazy noperson-centred approach there,
our child will not be goingthere.
So I do find it.
You can tell as a teacher whenyou walk into an institution or
a setting straight away do theyunderstand person-centred

(49:55):
approach Do?

Speaker 1 (49:55):
they not?
Yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy.
So we are getting towards theend here.
Awesome chat, by the way, andI'm so glad we were able to get
onto this eventually after thetechnical difficulty at the
beginning there.
But what should parents andschools know about
neurodivergent teachers?
Now we've sort of brushed alittle bit on there, but did you

(50:15):
want to go a little bit moreonto it?

Speaker 2 (50:19):
yeah, I mean I guess it's.
You know, everyone who'slistening will probably get by
now.
It's a benefit to havedifferent types of people in
your school or in your workplace.
So neurodivergent teachers areamazing because at the minimum
we can support the 10 to 20percent of kids in that school
that need a role model, thatneeds support, and to support

(50:41):
other teachers in you know bestpractice and how to apply
specific strategies.
We can model that.
Um, as a parent, I'm prettysure you know it's a high
likelihood that my child isgoing to have dyslexia and ADHD.
If I can't see a neurodivergentteacher in that setting, I
think I'd be hesitant to sendher to that school.

(51:04):
You know I'd be quite concerned.
But I also think we need tohave a broader mindset.
You know I love when you go onLinkedIn and you see oh, richard
Branson, he's dyslexic.
Love when you go on LinkedInand you see, oh, richard Branson
.
He's dyslexic and everyone'slike you know, but then parents
aren't willing to send theirkids to a school where someone
like Richard Branson could beteaching you know yeah almost so

(51:26):
.
I think we need to remove thebarriers of what a neurodiverse
teacher looks like, whichapparently is someone who can't
spell and is going to ruin theirchild's life and chance of a 99
atar and think of it all like.
Think of the skills you'regoing to learn from that person
that are going to help them inlife outside of an amazing 100

(51:49):
point grade average yeah, no, ithas so many benefits in so many
ways, doesn't it?

Speaker 1 (51:56):
What advice would you have for other neurodivergent
teachers out there?
You know, because you know theymay be.
You know, and I think a bigthing is like, I'm very big on
trying to create environmentswhere people can be open about
who they are, because, you know,I feel I'm able to work a lot

(52:18):
better when, um, I'm myself.
But you know, there might be alot of neurodivergent teachers
who are afraid to speak up outof, you know, backlash or like
we saw with what happened withyou at that school there, um,
you know.
So what's some advice you wouldgive to some of these people?

Speaker 2 (52:38):
I think it's really, you know, if you feel
comfortable speaking up, that'sthe number one.
And I I have this conversationwith trainee teachers a lot
because they don't disclose thatthey have, especially teachers
with autism.
They see they really believethat they're going to be, you
know, persecuted against.
People won't want to hire them,etc.
And what I say to them is reachout, find someone to talk to.

(53:02):
Like you know, I still havegreat conversations with the
people I've taught with ortaught to be teachers, and find
people on LinkedIn, facebook whoare in these groups and have
those discussions.
Ask if you can have fiveminutes on zoom, because it does
.
It helps having that discussion.
Um, I think I'm a big advocateof therapy.

(53:22):
I have.
This year I found the mostamazing therapist who's
neurodiverse and it's changed myworld because he gets when.
You know, I say I had a reallyoverwhelming urge to chew on
things this week and he didn'tlaugh at me.
He's like, oh, I get it, Itotally get it.
We just have conversationsabout that.
And I also think, as a teacher,it's very easy to go and work

(53:46):
in an environment that doesn'tsupport you, that you don't see
other colleagues who see you asa neurodivergent person and
support you.
So you have to find your placeand your setting and you know,
it might just take a couple ofgoes.
And one piece of advice I giveto my trainee teachers is don't
jump at the first job.

(54:07):
It's so easy to do.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
I was just thinking the exact same thing.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
That's where I screwed up, because I was like I
have to go job and I have to goteach at this private school
and it's going to be great.
I should have casual or Ishould have reached out to
people I knew and if you'refeeling burnt out as a teacher
say you're 10 years down theline as a neurodivergent teacher
reach out to me, reach out toother people.
There are so many other cooljobs in education where you can

(54:32):
make a difference.
If you just need a break, it'snot a bad thing well, what would
you say?

Speaker 1 (54:37):
like the job you're doing now, like that's a lot
different from what you've donein the past, would you say,
katie?

Speaker 2 (54:45):
yeah, it's very different from what I've done in
the past.
Um, I love it because I stillget to work with schools.
Um, but I also love it becauseI've kind of found my people.
Like you know, it's taken me awhile, but I've found my people.
It's given me the opportunityto explore things.
You know, meet people like youkeep doing things.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
So I think, once I get to fly everywhere, right.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
I do love flying and yeah, I think just giving myself
permission that I didn't haveto be in a neurotypical bubble
and follow everything was themost freeing point of all.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Do you ever find that like because of the job you're
in now and the role that you'redoing?
You sort of like at first itwas probably a little bit
different now because you'vebeen working for a while but you
don't feel as restrictedanymore.
It's sort of like, oh, can I dothat?
Or is it like that because youare working in that space?

Speaker 2 (55:47):
Yeah, I think it's interesting.
I think there's part of thatand then there's part of sort of
seeking to be myself and learn,growing into my neurodivergent
personality, which I probablymasked until my late 20s.
So I think, whatever job I wasin, now that I'm able to unmask

(56:08):
a bit more, um, I'm probablymore comfortable.
Like I don't think I could havecome on a podcast like this 10
years ago.
I don't think I would have beenlike whoa, I'm dyslexic adhd.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
Yeah, yeah, and and, and I think that's a lot of
people, you know.
I think um a lot and I thinkthat is something that we're at
that like, um, you know, when wecan create these environments
where people do feel morecomfortable, maybe they can be
more themselves or feel morecomfortable to do that.
You know all of that type ofstuff.

(56:38):
So we've got one more and thisis a big one, okay.
So, ryan's, come through againand I'll do my best on this Last
question.
I promise Ha-ha, I'mtransitioning into music
psychology academia because Ithink it's a better fit for me
than high school teaching.
In this endeavour, I've beendesperate to output an article

(57:02):
titled Along the Lines ofWhere's my Time Out Card.
Amidst the teacher shortage wehave in Australia, how do we
best support neurodivergentteachers with having to rely on
luxury strategies?
I like the earlier talk aboutteam teaching, but, as you said,

(57:27):
it's such a luxury especially Icouldn't fit all the rest of
that in.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
I think I get it Well .
First off, ryan for steppingout and going to do something
else he loves, and high schoolteaching will always be there.
That was always my thought.
It all goes peak tongue.
I can go back to teaching.
We're good.
The casual rates are greatcurrently.
Um, it is a really hardconversation to have about
luxuries.
I like that you've called themluxury strategies.

(57:56):
I think what you know we'retalking about is strategies that
benefit you as a neurodivergentteacher, if you are, or any
sort of teacher that supportyour well-being, your love for
the profession and can you askthem when there's a teaching
shortage and when there's somuch, you know, political
discourse around teachers, howmuch we earn, how much time we

(58:18):
get off, etc.
Etc.
Ultimately, it's an employer'sresponsibility to try and make
an environment, as you know,supportive of you and your needs
as anyone else, and that goeswith the disability standards
act and all those other things.
I think it's something wereally do need to flesh out more

(58:39):
with the teaching union, withthe department around
neurodivergent teachers.
That's probably, if anyonewould like to.
You know, my next role that'swhat I'd love to be doing is,
you know, going into bat forneurodivergent teachers and
understanding and teachingpeople about.
We may need time off, but wecould be doing some really cool
stuff.
I think when, as a teacher, youask for time off, like you know

(59:01):
, you say I'm sick.
I remember going to school andbeing sick in a bin because I
felt so guilty that I'd askedfor time off and they'd made me
feel so bad.
This was in the UK that I justsat in my class and I was sick.
How is that helpful?

Speaker 1 (59:16):
How did you teach for the day?

Speaker 2 (59:19):
I did it Literally.
I had like a year one kid justrubbing my head.

Speaker 1 (59:24):
Are you okay, Miss?
Are you okay?
I'm okay, I'm like I literallyneed to be here.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
Just go over there.
Oh my God.
This is where we need to you.
You know.
We do need to think about how,because ultimately, if you put
these luxury strategies in, youwill retain more teachers, um,
and it is a real problem.
I don't have a direct answer,ryan, and I think you're doing
the right thing by honoring whatyou want to do.

(59:53):
Go explore that for a bit andjust see where you go.
It doesn't mean I did sufferwith some sort of guilt about
leaving teaching.
It doesn't mean that you'releaving teaching.
It means that you're going todo other things that can support
individuals and teachers.
Um, but yes, I think there is avery big space for us to work

(01:00:14):
and will.
This will come through theneuro diversitydiversity Academy
.
Once we get further down theline, we're going to go into bat
and get people more aware ofwhat training is needed, what
strategy is needed, et cetera.
So actually, Ryan, it'sprobably Will that's going to
fix all that for us, not me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
Thank you for the plug there, katie.
You rock, but we definitelywill see how we go.
So, yeah, just one more shoutout from Craig Great talk,
thanks, Will and Katie.
This was super.
Thank you so much, craig andRyan, for coming in today.
I love when people areinteracting like that.
It just makes it so muchdifferent.

(01:00:54):
So thank you so much foreveryone for listening.
Now, katie, if people did wantto find out maybe a little bit
more about your work or connectwith you, where can they best
find you?

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
uh, probably linkedin is the best place, um, but
you're very welcome to come findme at any sort of aspect event
or ring aspect.
I'm sure they'll throw out mycontact katie's here today I'm
always about.
So yeah, um, feel free, butjust drop me a message on
linkedin or add me or whateveryou want to do, and I'm always

(01:01:27):
happy to chat nice, nice, nice.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
Well, look, katie, thank you so much for coming on
today.
Like it's.
It's always a pleasure whenwe're talking.
I'm being so excited to get umthe advisory board members onto
the podcast and and uh, talkingall of that.
I'm so excited for um you tobecoming a mother shortly, so
good luck with everything there.

(01:01:51):
I'm so excited for you thankyou.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
I'm sure I can come back with crazy tales of their
raising.
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Yeah, maybe we could have a whole other podcast
episode on all of those tales.
What do you reckon, Katie?

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
I'll start jotting them down as they go.
But yes, no, that would bewonderful and thanks for having
me.

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
Awesome, no, but look , thank you so much.
Everything you've shared todayhas definitely opened up my mind
and sort of really maybereminisce on a lot of the things
that were probably a lot ofissues for me, especially at
school.
But I really hope a lot ofpeople can take away a lot of
the stuff that you've sharedtoday and really maybe put some

(01:02:34):
of that in practice or startreally thinking a little bit
more deeply on that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
Yeah, brilliant.
It's never too late, I don'tthink, to learn, so I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
Totally and look for all of our listeners out there.
If you haven't already done so,subscribe, like and follow to
all of our social mediaplatforms.
My name's Will Wheeler, this isKatie Flea and this is
Neurodivergent Mates.
Until next time.