November 8, 2024 • 62 mins
Join us on Neurodivergent Mates as we welcome Dr. Matt Zakreski, a psychologist specializing in neurodiversity, to explore the unique world of twice-exceptional (2e) individuals.
Ever wondered what it means to be “twice-exceptional”? Dr. Matt breaks down how someone can be both gifted and face challenges, the impact of 2e on self-esteem, and the unique hurdles 2e students encounter in school. We’ll also dive into ways schools and workplaces can better support 2e individuals.
Tune in to hear Dr. Matt’s expert insights on maximizing the potential of neurodivergent minds!
Questions
- Tell us a bit about yourself
- Tell us a bit about your work
- What does “twice-exceptional” mean?
- How can someone be gifted and have challenges?
- What issues do 2e students face in school?
- What effect does being 2e have on self-esteem?
- What could schools and workplaces do to better support 2e individuals?
- Where can people connect with your work
All episodes are brought to you by neurodiversityacademy.com
To check out more episodes, visit all our social media platforms or check us out where you listen to all your podcasts.
#NeurodivergentMates #TwiceExceptional #2e #GiftedAndChallenged #Neurodiversity #Inclusion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates.
Hello and welcome toNeuroDivergent Mates.
I'm your host, will WheelerWheeler, and I gotta say I do
(00:27):
have a massive cold.
I'm getting over, so Iapologize for my husky voice,
but today we've got an awesomereturn of an awesome guest, dr
Matt.
How's it going, my friend?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Well, will, I'm doing a little bit better than you
are, that's for sure, but it,you know, you with a cold is
better than most people fullyhealthy.
So you know what?
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Let's ride with it yeah, totally, my friend,
totally, totally.
And, like I was saying to youbefore we started, it sounds a
lot worse than what it actuallyis.
So I don't know, I don't know.
But, like you know, when you'vehad like a head cold and it's
like you've got sinuses andstuff like that, and then it
moves down, all my head nowfeels great, it's just my throat
(01:14):
, it doesn't hurt or anything,it's just husky and all of that.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
My wife said it was sexy, so maybe I should keep the
voice right.
Yeah, you know, every so oftenI'll I'll have a cold.
When I'm on a podcast and I'lllisten to it, I'll be like, oh,
I sound like I'm in a deeperregister yeah, yeah, yeah right,
I'm like it's not the worstworld, not the worst thing in
the world.
You know you don't sound likeyou're dying, so you know it's,
it's a well, the thing is like Idon't know about you.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So this really came on because I was teaching for a
day, so my my voice wasn'treally good and then I had to
teach for a whole day.
Public speaking do you get likethat a lot, like you'll get off
stage.
You know like, oh my god, likeI've just been speaking for the
whole day and my throat is justlike I put it through, a cheese
(02:11):
grater type of thing dude, whenI'm on the road and you know
I've had good fortune to uh, beon the road a lot.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
This fall I mean my, my throat is my instrument.
So I'm like carrying like bigbags of cough drops Like I'm
always having, like I only drinkiced coffee I don't drink hot
coffee on the road, Like I'mkeeping the instrument Right.
And you know, I remember I was,I was at a conference and as we
were wrapping up night one andI was going on first thing in
(02:41):
the morning, the conferenceorganizer was like, ah, do a
shot with me.
And I was like, ah, I reallyshouldn't.
I first thing in the morningthe conference organizer was
like do a shot with me.
I was like I really shouldn't,I'm working in the morning.
He's like come on.
I was like we'll do somethingnice, like a nice bourbon or
something.
I got over there and there wastequila.
It was like rack shelf tequila.
I was like, oh, I'm going tohate this.
It wasn't the alcohol, it wasonly an ounce of alcohol, but
(03:04):
like I just had to burn.
And in the morning, I was likeI'm sick.
Sounded like a zombie, right.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, but that's the thing right.
Like imagine if you were like asinger and you get a cold.
You can see why, like they'vegot to cancel shows and then
you're letting down a wholestadium of people down.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
You just can't sing my best friend in college.
He was a very good singer.
He's still a very good singer.
But yeah, I mean it's so funnybecause it's college and you're
partying, you're doing all thesethings, but you could always
tell when he would have a showcoming up.
He'd be like guys, I can'tdrink tonight.
Like, come on, man.
He'd be like guys, I can'tdrink tonight.
(03:51):
I've got a show in the morningand he would show up at the.
He would sometimes go to theparty but he just wouldn't drink
, he would just have some water.
And I mean, like I alwaysappreciated that dedication
because, like I am not thatdisciplined of a human being man
, I am like, ah, damn thetorpedoes, we'll figure it out
tomorrow, right.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah, actually, you know what, right, like, I spoke
at a conference a few weeks agonow and I did have a few drinks
the night before.
Yeah, I don't know if I'll everdo that one again.
A few drinks is okay, but alittle bit over just probably
not the best.
When you're speaking the nextday, if that makes sense, I'd
(04:34):
say so.
Right, you know, but anyway,anyway, let's move on.
So today, what we're going tobe covering is the unique world
of twice exceptional, 2eindividuals, and when I thought
man, we've got to get dr mattback on this was the first thing
that come to mind.
My friend, um, you know, Ithink you know, I'm twice
(04:56):
exceptional.
You're twice exceptional, I'mpretty sure.
Correct, yes, sir.
So I thought this would be theperfect time to pull out all the
guns and talk about this, butwhat we might do just before we
do get started, I'll just do alittle bit of housekeeping.
So, just for any new listenersout there, if you haven't
(05:18):
already done so, pleasesubscribe, like and follow to
all of our social media pages.
We're available on TikTok,facebook, instagram, x, twitch,
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us, comment, give us a thumbs up.
It really helps with thealgorithm.
(05:40):
Also, check out our sponsor,neurodiversity Academy.
You can check us out atneurodiversityacademycom.
I think this next part's funnyNot really funny, but warning
some discussions may betriggering.
If you need help, please reachout to a loved one or call
emergency services.
(06:00):
We are not doctors.
The thing is you are a doctor.
We have a doctor here today.
That's why I thought it wasfunny.
This is a space for sharingexperiences and strategies.
Also, too, if you've got anyquestions, please put it into
the live chat.
Wherever you're listening to usthrough a live stream, say
(06:25):
through our social mediaplatforms, and if it's something
we think would be great toshare, we'll put it onto the
podcast, so you know what wemight do.
Dr Matt, you know there couldbe some new listeners who maybe
have never listened to youbefore or know much about you.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Please share a little bit about yourself yeah, so I'm
a clinical psychologist and aprofessional speaker who works
with primarily withneurodivergent kids and um, you
know and adults to help them gettheir needs met.
And I do this work because I ama twice exceptional person
(07:05):
myself.
I am gifted in ADHD and youknow.
So when I was little, I reallywas like I want to work with
people like me, I want to helppeople whose brains work like my
brain and you know, and I'vebuilt sort of this whole career
around this and it's, it's beena great ride ride, I mean.
They're as we learn more aboutthese brains and like the
(07:29):
messaging comes out more online,what you're seeing is more and
more people leaning into like,oh, the differences in my brain
matter and I can use theunderstanding of those
differences to get my knees metat school, at work, with my
(07:49):
friends, with my loved ones, andit really goes a long way to
making your life better.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy.
Yeah it's, I think.
You know, for me, when I wasgrowing up, you know, twice
exceptional just wasn't a termthat was really used.
You know when do you reckonthat really came into place,
that term?
Out of curiosity?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So it's been in the field, it's been in the journals
and the articles for 40, 50years at this point, but it
really didn't make its way intolike more common understanding
until the 2000s.
And so there are still somemental health professionals and
administrators out there who aregoing to say, like a kid can't
(08:35):
be gifted and autistic, theycan't be both Like.
No, they not only can, many ofthem are.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
What type of people are saying that, bud?
Because if you fully are in theneurodiversity field and this
is just me guessing this rightwouldn't you be like, well, no,
that's wrong.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Well, and that's the thing.
Imagine, I think about oneparticular school psychologist
that I've crossed swords with afew times.
You know, this is a guy who gothis job in the 70s and it rode
his out.
I mean like, yes, we havecontinuing education obligations
, but it's easy enough to cherrypick what you want to learn and
(09:20):
not see broader sea changes inthe field and not see broader
sea changes in the field.
And and also, a lot of it stemsfrom the fact that we've tried
to cram psychology through themedical model.
Right, so you have a cold.
That is a thing that we candiagnose.
It's a thing I can point to andbe like ha ha, it's a cold If
you break your leg, if yousprain your elbow.
(09:41):
Those are things we can image.
See, they're concrete, they'rediscrete things.
Mental health andneurodivergence they're messier
right.
Like you're someone who'sdepressed, you can also have
anxiety.
You can also have ADHD.
Those things may have a lot todo with each other.
They may have nothing to dowith each other, but our brains
are almost like a quantum stateThings exist and not exist and
(10:06):
work in very weird relationshipsto each other, and these are
the sort of things that themedical model fails to grasp.
So you're seeing ever so slowlypsychology shifting to be a
little bit more holistic view ofhow humans are, and I think
(10:27):
that's going to help us start totreat things as more broad
topics like neurodivergent,without getting so hung up on
what the neurodivergent is,Whereas that might work in the
medical model, Because if theysaid you have cancer, your first
question is going to be where'sthe cancer?
I need to do this so I can dosomething about it, like I know
my.
(10:48):
You've got cancer.
Great, great.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
No more words, please , right you know, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, um, but.
But so what I'm sort ofthinking is, if you're talking
about that gentleman who got hisstarted in the 70s, would it be
hard for someone like that youknow, like the term, you can't
teach an old dog new tricks you?
(11:14):
Is it sort of like that type ofthing that they're just not
open to change or realizing that, oh my god, what I've been
talking about for all theseyears, that doesn't't really
apply now.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Well, probably the best way to think about it right
now is that there's a lot ofpeople who are leaning into the
concept of being AUDHD.
Right so, the AU is autism andthen ADHD.
Right so, because many years wethought you couldn't be
(11:48):
autistic and ADHD.
Right, like one is, itoverwhelms the other.
Now we know a lot more nuancedabout how the prefrontal cortex
works and how these systems offunctioning in the brain work.
As our, as our, as ourunderstanding of the brain gets
more nuanced, we can see thedifferent pathways these things
(12:09):
take, and I think that's why wecan have these conversations now
that we couldn't have 20 yearsago, because we just know so
much more and, at the same time,know so comparably very little
about the brand.
But we're moving in a directionwhere you're seeing more people
(12:32):
really embrace this ADHD modelLike rock on do the thing right,
because, as I'm fond of sayingin life, it is better to know
that you're a zebra, not a weirdhorse.
There's a lot of people outthere who think they're weird
horses, right?
They're thinking like oh, like,every other horse can do these
things.
(12:52):
Why can't I do that thing?
It's because perhaps, my friend, you were a zebra the whole
time.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, no, interesting .
Look, moving on from that, whatdoes twice exceptional mean?
You know, I know you and I knowthis, but like there could be a
lot of listeners who are likewhat's this term?
And I know with a lot of.
So with neurodiversity Academy,we're doing a lot of work in
(13:21):
vocational education and we'relooking to go into higher
education and I think it'sreally important to be able to
learn about those types oflearners, because I know when I
was younger, it was verydifficult for me because people
just didn't understand that Iwas incredibly intelligent but
(13:44):
struggled with so many otherthings.
So you're already put into thehard basket a lot of the time,
where it's like what the hell isgoing on.
So could you please explain itin maybe a little bit more
detail?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, so twice exceptional is when you have a
gifted level IQ and some sort ofsecondary or other learning
difference so anotherneurodivergence and that those
are usually ADHD, autism andspecific learning disabilities
like dyslexia, dysgraphia,dyscalculia or dyspraxia.
(14:19):
Now there are other things thatare under that umbrella, but
those are sort of the big six.
Those are the ones we talkabout a lot, and what that tells
us is that gifted as aneurodivergence already comes
with strengths and weaknesses,peaks and valleys higher the
(14:45):
highs and the lower the lows,right.
And what I like to tell peopleis that there are, sort of
unofficially, three differentkinds of twice exceptional kids.
There's the kind of twiceexceptional like me, when I was
a kid where I was gifted insecond grade and no one ever
paid attention to the fact thatI always forgot that there was
tests.
My backpack looked like a bomb,went off, right.
I always forgot the homeworkbut did it in three minutes
before class and got an A on itright.
(15:07):
So my strengths outweighed,like overshadowed, my weaknesses
.
It wasn't until school gotharder than I was smart that
people were like oh my gosh, youtotally have ADHD.
I'm like, I totally do.
And then there's more whichsort of sounds like your
experience, where they'refocusing more on the deficits,
the like.
This is a problem kid.
(15:28):
This kid can't sit still, thiskid can't pay attention, this
kid can't read right, andthey're so busy focusing on what
you can't do that they, theyhave a tough.
They don't ever stop to thinkwhat could you do and what are
the?
What skills you have, you know.
So if we don't ever, if if akid shows up and they can't read
and that's all we focus on, wemay never learn that they're
(15:49):
great problem solvers or greatwriters or great mathematicians.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
You're already put in the too hard basket, yeah, and
then that's all you see.
Well, yeah, well, yeah Well.
I remember, if I think back toschool, it was very confusing
because I was failing big timewith a lot of the main subjects.
(16:15):
So math's, I remember I wasincredibly great at sport and I
think once I got into theworking world that was where my
strengths really started toshine.
(16:36):
But, you know, during that timethrough school it was incredibly
difficult and, um, it caused alot of, I suppose, mental harm,
if that's the word I'm lookingfor.
Uh, because you're you reallydoubt yourself.
So, and and and it's actuallyinteresting because I have
connected with a lot of people Iused to go to school with and,
(16:59):
um, I often, you know, they knowa lot of the work I'm doing and
withdiversity, all of that, andthey're like, oh, I'm
neurodivergent as well.
I'm like wow, I didn't evenknow that.
And I said, oh, and I talked tothem and I talked to them about
like how I had no confidenceand I really had a bad time
(17:21):
during school, my mental healthwas bad, and they're like what?
I didn't think that at all, Ijust saw you as the cool popular
kid and I'm thinking I'm the, Iwas the cool popular kid I.
I just didn't see that becauseall of these other things were
going on in my head which weretaking me away from what
(17:42):
everyone else was perceiving meas, which was just blows my mind
.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, and I mean that's just thank you for
sharing that right, because ourperceptions of ourselves can be
so discordant with how the worldsees us, in a positive way or a
negative way.
Right, and and let me, beforewe dive deeper into that, let me
talk about the third kinds oftwice exceptional kid.
So you could imagine, right,that if you were really good at
(18:14):
some things, right, like, let'ssay, in school you take tests
and do papers really well, soyou're getting good marks on all
those things, but you don't payattention in class, you don't
participate, you don't always doyour homework, so those things,
but you don't pay attention inclass, you don't participate,
you don't always do yourhomework, so those things all
come out as zeros.
So if we, if we throw all thoseterms together and we weight
them appropriately, what you'regoing to end up with is an
(18:36):
average score, right.
So in the field this is calledthe gifted C, because in the US
we use the letters grade system,right.
So you know.
So it's this idea that if youlook at a kid's grades at the
end of the year and it's allaverage, average, average,
average, average, average yourbrain automatically defaults to
(18:56):
that kid is just average.
But a lot of times you'll have akid who's high highs and low
lows cancel each other out, sothey end up in the middle.
And you, you'll have a kidwho's high highs and low lows
cancel each other out, so theyend up in the middle.
And you know, you think about a, you know, think about your
favorite.
You know your favorite.
Um, you know, uzzy rulesfootball team.
Like there are some great teams, there are some terrible teams
(19:19):
and there are some teams thathave great players and lousy
players, so they end up in themiddle of the pack.
Right, it doesn't change thefact that they have great
players but lousy players, sothey end up in the middle of the
pack.
Right, it doesn't change thefact that they have great
players.
But if all you did was look atthe standings and then you're
like oh, you know the, uh, youknow the rabidos are just an
average regular team, when theyactually might be much, the real
story might be much morenuanced than that yeah, crazy,
(19:43):
crazy, crazy.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Um.
So you know, moving on fromthat, sorry, how can someone be
gifted and have challenges?
And I know you sort of said alittle bit about that and you
know, and I think maybe somepeople, and I think, like you
were saying before, like it cansort of cancel things out, like
(20:07):
not cancel, I don't know ifthat's the right word, but like,
sometimes our strengths arewhat's the word I'm looking for,
and maybe when I was in school,maybe people didn't realise I
was struggling so hard becausemaybe my strengths was
socialising and being out thereand people were just seeing that
and not seeing that I wasreally struggling there.
(20:30):
So how can someone be bothgifted and have challenges?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
So this gets into a lot of the neuroscience of being
neurodivergent, right.
So if you're a neurotypicalperson, right, and 80% of people
are neurotypical, that meansthat those people's brains work
basically as we expect them towork, right?
20% of us are neurodivergent,right, and giftedness is a part
(21:00):
of that.
Twice exceptional is a part ofthat.
When you're neurodivergent, youdevelop asynchronously, you go
out of sync.
So if you imagine that thereare five developmental spheres,
right, intellectual, academic,social, emotional and physical.
Now for most people each one ofthose five get 20%.
Right, it's an equaldistribution.
(21:20):
When you're neurodivergent,that process becomes disrupted.
So you might get intellectualand academic.
They each get 30%, not 20%.
And since there's a finiteamount of energy, there's that
the rest of that 40% now splitamongst three things.
So you see kids with weakersocial, emotional and physical
(21:41):
skills.
We could also infer that, right, you were a kid who was great
at sport, so maybe you got 25%or 30% in that area and maybe it
dragged you down a little bit.
Academically, but notintellectually right, because we
know you're a very smart human,right, but we all know
academics doing school is askill Not everybody.
Not intellectually right,because we know you're a very
smart human right.
But we all know academics,doing school, is a skill.
(22:02):
Not everybody gets that right.
So what we see is that the moredisrupted this developmental
path becomes, there areessentially like pockets or
holes that occur in somebody'sdevelopmental path.
So you might have a kid.
I'm thinking about a young womanI work with.
She was diagnosed with dyslexiaand dysgraphia, so you know
(22:25):
physical disability in writingand reading.
She's also gifted and peoplewould say, oh well, she's
probably gifted in likenonverbal learning, right?
Like she's probably a good STEMstudent.
She had a gifted verbal IQ.
How could she do that?
Because when she answered thequestions verbally she had great
hearing, right.
So I asked her like I won't useher real name, becca, like
(22:47):
Becca, what does the wordarrogant mean?
And she would pop thatdefinition out, right.
But in school it would be theword arrogant would be on a
worksheet and she would have toread that word and then write
the definition.
Yeah, couldn't do, right.
So what we gave this kid was avoice to text system and told
(23:07):
her to write a story.
And she's like I can't write.
I'm like, right.
So how about this?
Tell me a story and I'm tellingyou the.
The story that exploded out ofher was one of the best things
I've ever read from any authorof any age.
(23:32):
And just sitting there andwatching this girl who was so
convinced that she was lesssmart, less good because of her
learning differences she wastheir classic type two kid.
No one would have ever thoughtto look for those strengths.
We were in a position to do sobecause of the kind of school I
met her at and you know, I knownow that she's doing amazing
work in the spaces she's in as acreative type person, and
that's you know, when you thinkabout the opportunities we have
(23:55):
to unlock the talents in people.
I mean that's why we all dowhat we do right, that's why you
do what you do and I do what Ido.
All the teachers andprofessionals who listen to this
podcast like we're trying tofind that spark in those kids.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
So would you say that technology has really helped
that person that you're speakingabout?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
I mean technology can be one of the biggest tools to
help kids overcome thechallenges that come with being
neurodivergent.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Because I've got to admit that technology has
changed my life to unbelievable.
I just feel like I'm ahead ofeveryone else now, almost um not
by the technology, because whatI have always wanted to get out
of my head, I'm now able toutilize technology to be able to
(24:50):
help me get that out therewhere in the past it's put me.
It's been a real challenge togo.
How do I get this onto paper?
You know, let's say AI has beengreat for me.
I don't know how it is foreveryone else, but for me it's
been great because a lot of thetime and you've probably come
(25:13):
across this a lot just startingsomething is incredibly hard.
What does that need to looklike?
How do I start?
Now I can just go to chat GPTand say, look, I'm creating this
.
What do I need to create?
Where do I start?
And then it's just like theboom gates open, the water just
comes flushing out.
(25:34):
If that makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
And I thinking about a, an adult I work with,
actually, who he has a lot oflike, perfectionistic tendencies
, a lot of anxiety, so what?
What we do for him is, well, Iwas like, listen, when you need
to get a rough draft, use chatgpt to give you a rough draft.
Then you go through and editwhat ChatGPT has to say and you
(26:00):
do it in your voice and you putyour knowledge in there.
And what he's found is thatChatGPT raises the floor and
then he can raise the ceilingRight, and but he has such a
tough time getting started thathe might never write the copy if
he has to do it himself, butsay like all right, chat gpt do
(26:23):
this thing.
And then he goes and gets acoffee and he comes back and
there's a halfway decent, youknow page and a half on whatever
he needs to talk about gettingideas right.
And then he goes like, oh,that's good, that's good, I
would change that this.
Oh, we need to expand on thispoint.
And he's you know, he's carryingall this secret shame.
And I was like well, what if hetold your boss?
(26:44):
He's like well, then I wouldget fired immediately.
I'm like, would you, because Igot to tell you I would bet you
a steak dinner that you're notthe only person at your job
who's using chat GPT.
So he did sort of mention thatto his boss's boss, like, oh
(27:06):
yeah, we all use it.
Just don't ever submitsomething that's chat gpt and
claim that it's you and his wifelikes that world right.
So all of a sudden his life'sgotten easier and more
manageable and he hasn't had tochange right.
He didn't have to fix his brain.
He's using tools in a way thatallows him to play to his
strengths and everybody'shappier for it.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, no, it's awesome.
I love the period and it'sprobably only going to get
better that I'm like, oh my God,I am able to get these things
done, and then people are so myGod, I am able to get these
things done, and then people areso.
For example, I developed aprofessional development course
(27:44):
the other day.
Now, I've probably always beenable to do that, but you know, a
lot of the time I've hadself-doubt Because you know I
haven't worked in that fieldbefore of like structural design
, in learning and all of that.
But being able to sit down withChatGPT and just go, look, where
(28:07):
do I start, what do I need?
It would spit me out stuff andI'd be like I don't like that.
You know what I mean and buildoff from it.
I know exactly what I've put inthere.
I haven't.
You know it's not.
Some people may see that usingchat GPT might be classed as
cheating, but you know, for meit's not cheating at all.
(28:30):
It's like going okay, that'sgood, that sucks, get rid of
that, we don't need all of that.
And I've just been able tobuild off from that, if that
makes sense I mean absolutely,and in its own way.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
It's the, it's the logical evolution of.
People used to hate computersbecause they thought that it
made typing irrelevant.
People used to hate wordprocessing programs.
They're like well, aren't goingto learn how to handwrite.
And it's just like guys, can weall just get off our high
horses for a second here?
Right, there's always going tobe a need to handwrite, just
(29:09):
like there's always going to bea need to create your own
content.
But when we can work smarter,not harder, work smarter, not
harder.
You know, like, if I'm cookingdinner for my family and I
forget to defrost the chicken, Idon't not cook dinner for my
family because I didn't put thischicken in.
I put it in the microwave andthen the microwave defrosted for
(29:29):
me.
Then I cook the chicken.
I mean it's.
You know, I don't go in thebackyard and kill a bird and
break it down myself because wedon't have chickens and frankly,
that creeps me out.
Man, I wouldn't want to.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, right, like so do you live in like a suburban
area?
Yes, so I think your neighborsmight be a little bit like oh my
god, dr matt's really loosewith a sharp knife and like in
blood.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
You know that's, that's, that's how you make bad
relations with the neighbors.
You know, totally it's.
So.
It's the sort of thing like Iremember.
I remember reading a book abouttechnology in the classroom a
few years ago and it bothered mebecause they were like well,
kids today can't read maps, theycan only use the gps.
And I'm like, do you well, doyou remember using maps?
(30:17):
You have to fold them, and itwas like always the worst fold
in human using maps.
You have to fold them and itwas like always the worst fold
in human history.
And then you have to figure outwhere you are and like, yeah,
you're like okay, so Uluru isthere.
Yeah, who is sitting in cans?
So I think something has gonewrong and like, objectively
speaking, gpss are a bettersystem than maps.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
But they still have their flaws.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Yeah, and that because there is no perfect
system.
Five years from now, whenthere's a better thing than GPS,
whatever that might be, thereare going to be people like ah,
you remember the good old daysof.
GPS, yeah, jeez, like, let's alljust calm down a second.
And it is helpful to be able toread a map.
If your GPS goes out, like ifyou're on walkabout and you need
(31:05):
to find a way home, gps isn'tgoing to help you, but knowing
how to read a map could.
So it's not either, or it'swhat's the best tool for this
job right.
Best tool for this job right.
And so much of taking the ideasof neurodivergent education
right and expanding them tosociety.
(31:25):
This is what we call universaldesign, because the best
practices for neurodivergentkiddos are just the best
practices, full stop, right, youcan.
If a kid is really good atsomething, we want to give them
those skills and give them asmuch exposure as we can and then
teach them the other thingsthey need to know along the way.
Every person on planet Earthwould benefit from that kind of
(31:47):
model, whether that's at schoolor at work.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
It's almost like a calculator, right?
Do you know what I mean?
Like before, calculators were athing you had to do that in
your head or on a piece of paper, right?
Then you were given acalculator in school.
You know how's that notdifferent to utilizing this
technology?
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Correct Right.
I mean, and there are times Iremember being in school,
teachers were like you're notalways going to have a
calculator with you First off,yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Is that a calculator?
Or is that your phone?
My phone, right.
I suppose, it is a calculator.
I was going to say you've gotan old school calculator.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, at all times Will.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Here's my slide rule.
Here's my protractor yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's also.
You know, I do a lot of IQtesting as part of my job, right
?
And when we're diagnosing kidsas gifted or twice exceptional,
you've got to do the testing.
When I'm running those numbers,I don't do the math in my head
(32:54):
I could I'm very good at mentalmath but I use a calculator
because the calculator issmarter than me.
The calculator is not going todrop a one or forget to carry
the negative sign.
The calculator is going to dothe job and, frankly, do it
faster than me because I use acalculator.
(33:15):
Just like I don't think you'reworse at writing or social media
or whatever you use chat GBTfor if you're using that tool,
right, Because you know a toolmatters, but the user matters
more.
Right, it's not the it's, youknow, it's not the plane, it's
the pilot, right, and thatmatters.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Do you know what right, like, I was speaking to a
doctor who's doing a lot ofresearch in, you know,
supporting students who arestruggling in higher education,
vocational education.
She's also looking at likeonline education, which is huge,
and we were talking about likethe use of technology to be able
(34:01):
to support neurodivergentstudents and a big thing,
especially in the vocational andhigher education space.
We are seeing a lot of peopleusing ChatGPT to cheat, if that
makes sense, and I spoke to herabout this and I said what are
your thoughts that you know chatGPT is?
(34:23):
You know people are using it tocheat and she goes look, the
thing is, cheating has alwaysbeen there.
We're just in a different realmof cheating now.
Like before, say, chat GPTwould copy, uh, um, someone
else's assignment or um.
They would just copy and pastestraight from google into um,
(34:48):
their document or whatever thinglike that.
And it's like this is just thenew way of um of cheating.
But, like you were saying before, it does come down to the
individual.
What's the individual going totake away if they're just
putting in something thatthey've copied or whatever they
haven't been a part of creating?
And I think for me, when Icreate something like a course
(35:12):
or whatever like that.
I don't just copy and paste andput it in and not know what
I've put in there.
I know exactly what I've put inbecause a lot of the time I've
gone that is crap.
I need something.
That's more what I'm lookingfor.
If that makes sense, right.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
And I mean that's exactly it.
And this society always pushesback on change, right, because
change is hard and it's easy.
Well, kids will use it to cheat.
You're right.
You know what else kids used tocheat their phones, their
laptops and before that, theirbuddies.
(35:49):
And before that, running offcopies of the exam and slipping
them into somebody's notebookright, and I'm sure plato and
aristotle had somebody was likecarving out, like chiseled
things on the side, like yeah, Igot this right, like yeah, yeah
, no, so the.
And I actually think that's whywe're seeing increased shift to
(36:13):
creative outlets and processesand project-based learning,
because there are things thatnot only resist cheating but
force the kind of engagementthat makes you not want to cheat
in the first place.
If I have to take a chaptertest with 25 questions from a
book I didn't read, it is a loteasier to be like chat to GPT
(36:33):
tell me the summary of that bookand then take my chances based
on the summary of the book.
But if it's like, here are theideas of that book and then take
my chances based on the summaryof the book.
But if it's like here are theideas of the book 1984, now I
want you to put that, tell mewhat that would look like in
minecraft.
Or tell me what that would looklike in at a surfing
competition.
Or tell me what that would looklike in a french restaurant.
(36:55):
Like we're're sending thingsout in the lens of the kid's
interest and forcing them to notonly engage with the
information but engage in theway that you can't cheat that
you you have.
You know, if you're buildingsomething, making something, it
is much harder to cut thosecorners and what you're going to
find is kids are going to buildmore resilience, they're going
(37:16):
to trust the process more andthey're not going to want to
cheat as much.
Because that's the kind of thingwhere my grandfather always
said this that hard work is itsown reward.
The thing he missed was hardwork.
That means something is its ownreward.
Right, I could go ask you to gomow your backyard by by hand.
(37:36):
Will?
Right, go get some scissors andthey go that's hard Considering
I live in an apartment thatwould be incredibly hard.
Do it anyway, right?
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yeah, I can do it anyway.
My neighbors might think I'mcrazy, but I'll give it a go um
do love.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I'd be like what's he doing?
Speaker 1 (38:00):
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.
But no, look, moving on fromthat, like so what issues do 2e
students face in school?
And I've sort of named a few ofthem there, but what
specifically would they maybecome against?
A lot of the time, I knowmisunderstanding was a big one
for me misunderstanding.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
And that asynchrony is another big thing because we
tend to treat kids at thehighest level of their
functioning right.
So if you have a 10 year oldwho's intellectually 16 and
talks and acts like a 16 yearold, you're going to start
recalibrating your mentalexpectations of that kid.
That, oh, they're 16.
They're there, they're an adult, right.
(38:44):
But then they do something thata 10 year old does pick their
nose or make a fart noise inclass or say girls are gross or
whatever 10 year olds do, right.
Then you'd be like you're thatmuch more disappointed because
you're not grading them as a 10year old, you're grading them as
a 16 year old, right.
And so when I talk to parentsand teachers, like when you've
(39:06):
got a neurodivergent kid, thefirst thing you got to do is
stop and remind yourself how oldis this kid Not how old do they
act or how old do they seem,but how old they are, because
that's going to make much morerealistic expectations, which
are going to make yourinterventions much more
reasonable.
Let's take that a step furtherand talk about one of the other
(39:29):
ways they struggle through.
That asynchrony is that kidsdon't necessarily have the
social and emotional skills tomanage the challenges we're
handling, handing them right.
So, you know, to our goodfriend Photon John, right?
You know, a very commonintervention for musically
(39:50):
gifted kids is to move them upto the next school's band.
So if you're a middle schoolstudent, we would move you up to
the high school.
Right, and this kid canabsolutely do the music right.
If it's the flute or the drumsor the saxophone they can do it.
But can they handle being in aroom with a bunch of high school
kids who are talking about highschool things?
Right?
(40:11):
Can they create relationships?
Can they emotionally handle thestress and the higher stakes?
You know one of the kids I workwith.
He was just at his firstmarching band competition and he
had a panic attack because he'slike I'm the littlest and
youngest person here and he'slike, pound for pound, I might
be the best musician on thefield but I'm shrimp compared to
(40:33):
these giant hulking kids, andyou know.
So he and I were on the phone,I helped him calm down and we
talked about settingexpectations.
But it's like we've got to bevery nuanced and very
intentional with how we put ininterventions for kids like this
, because the reality is thatthat asynchrony model says a kid
(40:56):
who's 10 years old but canoperate like a 16-year-old on
their best but operates like asix-year-old at their worst.
All parts of that kid have toexist if we're going to come up
with a plan that serves them.
So it means we've got to reallybe thoughtful in how we attach
these things.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
See, if I think back to when I was in school, I would
always be in arguments with myteachers or I'd tell them to you
know, go F off.
Or you know what I mean.
Because a lot of the time and Ilook back at it now and I'm
like, oh my God, I was so ADHD.
They had no idea that I wasADHD, and a lot of the things
(41:40):
that were getting under theirskin I had no idea about and I
felt like they were attacking meand probably because I didn't
have, you know, the I suppose,the maturity to be able to go oh
, you know, approach it properly.
I wouldn't do that now, ofcourse, I would just lose it at
(42:02):
the teachers.
So it's a common thing I found.
Yeah, you know, but would youfind that would be something
that some TUI students maystruggle with as well, because
they're not really comprehendingwhat the teacher sort of
understands about them.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Oh, absolutely.
And let's throw another layeron that, because if you don't
understand yourself, it'sawfully hard to accept somebody
else understanding you ormisunderstanding you.
Right, and that's a thing thatwhen we see.
That these kids, you know, justgo back to the words we used
(42:45):
before.
They're walking around thinkingthey're weird horses and they
don't want to be a weird horse,but they don't know they can be
a zebra.
They don't know what that lookslike, so there's an angst to
what that is and what that feelslike, well, that was probably
me.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Remember.
I spoke about, like, how I wasin school and I'm thinking, man,
I'm not learning that I was thecool popular kid.
I was definitely thinking I wasthe weird horse.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Yeah, right, and everyone's like that's the
coolest zebra I've ever met.
Oh my God, that's right.
I guess, to make this moreAussie, we could, like a lot of
people think they're kangaroos,but they're really wallabies.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
I don't know.
Yes, true, true, true, they'resmaller.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Right, and not all dogs are dingoes, something like
that.
We'll figure it out, but theidea here is that you can't name
it to tame it if you don't knowwhat it is you're trying to
name, right.
So that's why podcasts likethis are so important, because
(43:46):
there are going to be people outthere who are hearing this and
thinking, holy shit, they'retalking about me.
I didn't know that this wordexisted for somebody like me.
You know, and you know I have a.
I have a client I work with,who's you know, through our the
course of the work we've donefor many years.
He was like so, dr Matt, like,and so there's a big overlap
(44:07):
between the LGBTQ community andthe neurodivergent community.
There's a lot of overlap there.
Yeah, totally Right.
And he's a very neurodivergentkid.
He's like Dr Matt, I got totell you you, I, I don't it
seems like everybody else hascrushes on people and like, gets
sexually attracted to people.
It's always like oh, they're sohot and they're so hot and
they're so hot and they're likeI don't feel those ways like,
(44:31):
and he's like I don't think it'sthat I don't like girls, that I
like boys, I just don't likeanybody.
And he's like is thisdepression.
Is there something wrong withme?
And I, you know, let him talkfor a while.
I was like buddy, have you everheard of the term asexual?
And he's like I've heard ofthat term and I'm like so here's
what asexual means, right?
And some people abbreviate itas ace.
So I, you know, here's an acecommunity near you.
(44:54):
And he went to a, a meeting,and he's like these are my
people.
I didn't know that that was anoption.
I didn't know that was a termyou want to say.
You can't name entertainment ifyou don't know what you're
trying to name now he's a proudasexual student.
He has the asexual flag in hisdorm, right and and, and.
Of course, like, people willcome in and be like oh, what
(45:14):
flag is that?
Because you know he is notcaucasian, let's say and people
will come in and be like oh man,is that your home country?
Speaker 1 (45:26):
that's hilarious.
Oh my god, is that your?
Speaker 2 (45:32):
why don't you mess with people?
Be like ah yes, that's thecountry I'm from.
What country do you think I'mfrom?
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, true, true, true.
But look, you know, what effectdoes that bring?
Oh sorry, what effect doesbeing 2E have on self-esteem?
So you know, we've just spokenabout like people not
understanding certain thingsabout themselves and all of that
(45:58):
.
And I can tell you right nowthat for me, especially leaving
high school, my self-esteem wasright down.
That was where I started to getinto drugs, alcohol, because
that was what really.
It almost killed the pain, ifthat makes sense.
You know, and I think this, andyou know it's interesting.
(46:23):
Sometimes I think if I hadknown earlier, would my life
have been different or would Ihave still?
And look, I think sometimes toothat what I did experience,
maybe that did contribute to whoI am today, if that makes sense
.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yeah, yeah.
And I mean I'll tell you likeone of the things that hurts
twice exceptional kids inparticular as compared to gifted
kids is there's this perceptionthat gifted kids are good kids,
right, and so a gifted kidwould never smoke marijuana.
A gifted kid would never go anddrink alcohol, right.
(47:03):
And then, like I think aboutmyself in high school and I was
smoking a lot of marijuana andnobody knew because I had to get
out of my head, right, like itwas a 38-piece orchestra up here
and everybody else has got likethe clapping monkey and I'm
like, and it's like it wasexhausting, right.
(47:26):
And so if you don't understandthe full impact of being
neurodivergent on trying to livein the world, then you would
never think that a gifted orneurodivergent kid would would
turn to drugs or alcohol.
But a lot of the kids that Italk to who do use those
substances say, for the samereasons, like I want to get out
of my head, I want to not feelthis way for a little while and
(47:48):
I know it's not the best thingin the world for me, right.
But also like, what otheroptions do I have?
Because I don't know if you'veseen the world recently, dr matt
, but holy shit, and and I'mlike, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, like you, there arereasons to want to get out of
your head.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
And considering what's just happened in your
country, it's going to get ahell of a lot more interesting.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And interesting is a very kindword for what I would rather say
, which we would probably haveto bleep out, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
So that's fun.
It might create you some morebusiness, Dr Matt.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
I'm never going to be out of work, but, yes, things
are very like a lot of clientsthat have come out of the
woodwork this week.
I'm like, come on in, come onin, it's you know, it's like.
It's like the guy who, like,builds the life raft if there
might be a flood, and theneveryone's like, oh my God, the
videos are fine.
Like, go and get on the raft.
I told you, I told you Right,right, so, yeah, you right at
(49:07):
the back, right so yeah, I mean,you know it.
Really it's hard to be out there, and one of the things that
makes it harder for people likeus is that the world is not
built for people like us.
Right, 80 of people areneurotypical, so they built the
world for them and they didn'tdo it intentionally to hurt us.
Right, there was no mal intent,ill intent there, but the
reality is the world doesn'twork for people like us.
(49:28):
It's not meant to work forpeople like us.
So we have to find a way tobuild our own skills to navigate
those worlds.
That doesn't involve sellingourselves out, right, and that's
honestly why I wrote my book.
Like the whole idea is crack,like the subtitle is cracking
the code of a world not builtfor you, because I don't want
you will to ever not be wellright.
(49:49):
I love your gifted adhddyslexic like it's.
It's that's what makes you soyou know a fun podcast host and
frankly, it makes you my friend.
Right, yeah, yeah, but thereare going to be times like you
know a fun podcast host and,frankly, he makes you my friend
Right, yeah, yeah, but there aregoing to be times, like you
know, if you meet with theAustralian government, they're
like we want to give you a $3million grant to take your show
on the road.
You've got to be the mostneurotypical version of will to
(50:11):
get that.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
Yeah, you're dead right, and I'm like hello
government.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
I am, will Wheeler, look at me being very
appropriate, and you're going toget out of there and you're
going to take your suit and tieoff and like, put down a couple
of VBs and be like, let's go, vbmate.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
I'll have to be.
Things must be going pretty bad, if I'm turning to the VB mate.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Hey, there's a steak and two eggs in every VB.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
That's what they told me.
When I looked An alcoholic'ssteak and two eggs I think I was
more of a Carlton cold guymyself.
Yeah, carlton's not too bad.
Honestly, I don't drink muchbeer these days.
I try to stay away from it.
But anyway, that's a wholenother.
We can make a whole differentpodcast on that, right, that'll
be episode three We'll talkabout.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
You know, like, really get into the substances,
yeah.
But yeah, I mean, it's notbuilt for us.
We've got to find ways to.
The technical term for this iscode switch, right?
So I'm going to speak one wayto you, because you and I are
neurologically very similar,right.
Then I would speak to the headof a university or my kid's
(51:21):
teacher, right?
Or my in-laws, like that's,actually my in-laws are super
neurodivergent.
That's a fail, but, um, butthat's the thing it's like it's.
Don't sell yourself out, butdevelop the skill to shift your
focus as needed, right, andthat's how we navigate different
situations better.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
It's interesting because I think for me, probably
the last 10 years, my careerwell, actually since the
pandemic, my career has reallyskyrocketed into a lot of
positive things.
Because I remember before thepandemic I would always be
(52:04):
wearing suits, you know, shorthair, very clean cut, and I just
felt like I wasn't reallyprogressing to, or I was trying
to, be someone I wasn't.
And during the pandemic it wassort of like you know what.
Obviously, I had a lot of timeto think over a lot of things
(52:24):
and I was like you know what,I'm going to be more me.
And once I was able to startbeing more myself, that was
where the magic really startedto happen.
Yes, I am going into certainsituations where I have to try
and not be who I am and Isometimes come up against a
(52:46):
little bit of um friction there.
It can be sometimes difficult,but I'm just finding being more
myself.
I've been able to succeed a lotfaster than when I was trying
to be someone.
I wasn't type of thing.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Yeah, and that's that's I mean, like if there's a
singular takeaway from thisepisode and I hope that people
take a lot of takeaways from itis absolutely that it's that you
are going to go much furtherand faster and have more
meaningful success being themost authentic version of you
(53:23):
than trying to be somebodyyou're not right.
Yeah, try to be neurotypical.
If you're not neurotypical,find environments that allow you
to lean into yourneurodivergence and be the best
version yeah, it was actuallyinteresting.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
So while I'm building neurodiversity academy, I have
to work a part-time job.
That's that's what anentrepreneur has to do when
you're building a business right.
And so what I do?
I actually um help people withdisabilities start businesses.
So I work with like thegovernment gives like money to
people to help them start abusiness, but I always share
(54:00):
that.
I'm dyslexic and adhd.
It was actually interesting.
I had this person stay back andask me questions the other day
and they're like oh my god, I'madhd.
Um, and she was talking abouthow she's like you know, I'm
really worried because when I'mlistening to people, I'm
actually doodling or doingsomething else, but I'm still
listening and doing this.
(54:21):
And she's like do you think Ishould change?
Or I'm like hell.
No, I said what you do is likeawesome, like if you can be who
you are.
And she's like but people getannoyed because I speak over the
top of them and I'm like look,the main thing is, you're
mindful of it.
When you can be yourself,that's where a lot of great
(54:45):
things are going to happen.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
You know, and I think that's just from my experience
anyway- I mean, I wouldabsolutely agree with you, right
, you, Right, and, and so muchof you know.
When I went to a summer campfor gifted students when I was
(55:07):
younger, I called my mom afterthe first day and I said, mom, I
don't have to pretend to not besmart here.
I don't have to spend thatmental energy holding myself
back because, surprise, surprise, when you're not holding
yourself back, you're puttingmore energy into the things that
make you special and awesome.
Like there's no downside tothat, right?
(55:28):
So I just tell people, like, ifyou find those spaces, then
you're going to be amazed atwhat you can do.
You know, and one of my favoriteexpressions has always been if
a flower is not growing, youdon't yell at the flower, you
change the greenhouse.
And I think that a lot of usare searching for those
(55:50):
greenhouses.
And you know you starting a.
You know you talking to a.
You know helping people starttheir own businesses who are,
you know, who have disabilities,like you're helping them create
their own greenhouse.
That's going to work well,right?
A really cool thing.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
Yeah, and I think just helping people to be able
to see what's good in themselves, especially when you're running
a business, is vital.
Yeah, absolutely.
But look, we are getting to thethe end.
But we do have another questionwhich I think sort of flows in
well with um what we're talkingabout.
What could schools andworkplaces do better to support
(56:31):
2e individuals?
Speaker 2 (56:34):
oh man, um, how much time do we have?
Four minutes, all right, let mesee.
What can I do.
All right, let's start with.
Let's start with we have tomeet kids where they are right,
and that is going to play outacross all different aspects of
that asynchronous developmentchart that we talked about
(56:55):
before.
So that's number one, rightMeet kids where they are.
So if you have a 10 old who canplay orchestral music like a 20
year old that reads like athree year old, then we've got
to get them, to get them into,um, you know, the music program
for 20 year old and teach themto read like a three year old.
(57:17):
Both pieces of that have to betrue, right?
Second piece here would be letkids go as high and as far and
as deep as they need to go inthe things they learn, because
so often we are teaching kidslike learn as much as you can
(57:37):
until I tell you to stop.
If a kid wants to know moreabout astronomy and the unit
only covers the eight planets,then we are missing an
opportunity to reach that kid ina meaningful way, because why
would we tell a kid to stop?
Right, let's keep going.
And then, last but not least,being smart isn't easy.
(58:04):
So I think that one of thethings that we have to do is Is
integrate more social, emotionallearning into the way that we
teach all neurodivergent kidsand really all kids in general,
right, but, like you know, it'snot easy to get along with
(58:25):
people.
It isn't especially if yourbrains don't work like theirs.
So if you can lean into those,if you can lean into those,
those spaces, and develop thoseskills, then you're going to
find that people are going torespond to you a lot more,
they're going to open up to youa lot more, and we will be much
(58:47):
better off for it.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
Yeah, awesome.
Well put, dr, Matt, well put.
Did I hear your?
Well, I didn't hear.
I know you've just released thebook, um, did you want to plug
it?
Speaker 2 (59:02):
I, I mean it's I would love to plug it so it's
called the uh neurodiversityplaybook and it's a.
It's a book.
That's sort of a lot about whatwe were talking about today,
like if you understand yourbrain, you can build the skills
that help you to to develop thethings you need to be successful
in today's world, and what thatlooks like for you as as a
(59:28):
neurodivergent person is goingto look different than somebody
else, right?
So, um, so, yeah, so it's.
It's funny.
It's got a lot of pop culturereferences's, kind of you know,
me on a, me in a book, right?
So if you've enjoyed thispodcast episode, you likely
wouldn't enjoy this book.
Um, and it's available onamazon.
(59:49):
Um, I don't know when they'regoing to ship them to australia,
but we do have a big order fromaustralia, so I know we're
sending some books thereeventually so, oh, I didn't
realize.
Speaker 1 (59:59):
I thought like you could get any book on amazon,
and but it can only be done percountry, can it?
Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
yeah, I think they, I think they um, because I
thought they print.
Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
It depends how you've got it, like I thought.
So it's not like you can't getlike a digital version of the
book.
Yeah it, it's all hard copy, isit?
Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
Well, we're going to release a digital version soon
and an audio book.
I just don't know when thoseare going to be.
Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, but keep an eye out for it
.
Yeah yeah, nice, nice, nice,nice, nice.
Sorry, I've just got something.
Something has popped up on myscreen here.
Thank god that's gone, um, butlook, dr matt, thank you so much
for coming on.
Uh, where else can um people uhconnect with you and find out
more about your work?
Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
oh man, well, I am chronically online, so that
would be a good place to startum.
So I have a um, so I have twoprimary roles, right?
I am a clinical psychologistand a professional speaker.
So for the psychology piece,you'd go to the
neurodiversitycollectivecom, andif you want me to speak to your
(01:01:14):
organization or your school,then you'd go Dr Matt
Sokreskicom.
So it's Dr Matt Sokreskicom ifyou want me for your
organization, theNeurodiversityCollectivecom if
you want me for you.
Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Yeah, awesome, dr Matt.
It's always a pleasure when wecatch up with you, my friend.
You're always very entertaining.
I do want to make my way toAmerica one day.
I'm hoping, with everythingthat's gone on, it's not going
to be too expensive to go toAmerica.
But, dr Matt, it's always apleasure, my friend.
Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
Well, when you come out, I will be the first person
to meet you at the airport andwe'll show you a good time here
in America, because there arestill good things about this
country, I promise.
Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
Totally.
I do want to come to your sidefor sure.
Yeah, anyway, but look.
Thank you so much, dr Matt, andfor all of our other listeners.
If you haven't already done so,please subscribe, like and
follow to all of our socialmedia platforms.
Check us out, subscribe andcomment on all of our things on
wherever you listen to yourpodcast.
My name's Will Wheeler and thisis Neurodivergent Mates.
(01:02:24):
Till next time.
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates.
Hello and welcome toNeuroDivergent Mates.
I'm your host, will WheelerWheeler, and I gotta say I do
(00:27):
have a massive cold.
I'm getting over, so Iapologize for my husky voice,
but today we've got an awesomereturn of an awesome guest, dr
Matt.
How's it going, my friend?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Well, will, I'm doing a little bit better than you
are, that's for sure, but it,you know, you with a cold is
better than most people fullyhealthy.
So you know what?
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Let's ride with it yeah, totally, my friend,
totally, totally.
And, like I was saying to youbefore we started, it sounds a
lot worse than what it actuallyis.
So I don't know, I don't know.
But, like you know, when you'vehad like a head cold and it's
like you've got sinuses andstuff like that, and then it
moves down, all my head nowfeels great, it's just my throat
(01:14):
, it doesn't hurt or anything,it's just husky and all of that.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
My wife said it was sexy, so maybe I should keep the
voice right.
Yeah, you know, every so oftenI'll I'll have a cold.
When I'm on a podcast and I'lllisten to it, I'll be like, oh,
I sound like I'm in a deeperregister yeah, yeah, yeah right,
I'm like it's not the worstworld, not the worst thing in
the world.
You know you don't sound likeyou're dying, so you know it's,
it's a well, the thing is like Idon't know about you.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So this really came on because I was teaching for a
day, so my my voice wasn'treally good and then I had to
teach for a whole day.
Public speaking do you get likethat a lot, like you'll get off
stage.
You know like, oh my god, likeI've just been speaking for the
whole day and my throat is justlike I put it through, a cheese
(02:11):
grater type of thing dude, whenI'm on the road and you know
I've had good fortune to uh, beon the road a lot.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
This fall I mean my, my throat is my instrument.
So I'm like carrying like bigbags of cough drops Like I'm
always having, like I only drinkiced coffee I don't drink hot
coffee on the road, Like I'mkeeping the instrument Right.
And you know, I remember I was,I was at a conference and as we
were wrapping up night one andI was going on first thing in
(02:41):
the morning, the conferenceorganizer was like, ah, do a
shot with me.
And I was like, ah, I reallyshouldn't.
I first thing in the morningthe conference organizer was
like do a shot with me.
I was like I really shouldn't,I'm working in the morning.
He's like come on.
I was like we'll do somethingnice, like a nice bourbon or
something.
I got over there and there wastequila.
It was like rack shelf tequila.
I was like, oh, I'm going tohate this.
It wasn't the alcohol, it wasonly an ounce of alcohol, but
(03:04):
like I just had to burn.
And in the morning, I was likeI'm sick.
Sounded like a zombie, right.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, but that's the thing right.
Like imagine if you were like asinger and you get a cold.
You can see why, like they'vegot to cancel shows and then
you're letting down a wholestadium of people down.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
You just can't sing my best friend in college.
He was a very good singer.
He's still a very good singer.
But yeah, I mean it's so funnybecause it's college and you're
partying, you're doing all thesethings, but you could always
tell when he would have a showcoming up.
He'd be like guys, I can'tdrink tonight.
Like, come on, man.
He'd be like guys, I can'tdrink tonight.
(03:51):
I've got a show in the morningand he would show up at the.
He would sometimes go to theparty but he just wouldn't drink
, he would just have some water.
And I mean, like I alwaysappreciated that dedication
because, like I am not thatdisciplined of a human being man
, I am like, ah, damn thetorpedoes, we'll figure it out
tomorrow, right.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah, actually, you know what, right, like, I spoke
at a conference a few weeks agonow and I did have a few drinks
the night before.
Yeah, I don't know if I'll everdo that one again.
A few drinks is okay, but alittle bit over just probably
not the best.
When you're speaking the nextday, if that makes sense, I'd
(04:34):
say so.
Right, you know, but anyway,anyway, let's move on.
So today, what we're going tobe covering is the unique world
of twice exceptional, 2eindividuals, and when I thought
man, we've got to get dr mattback on this was the first thing
that come to mind.
My friend, um, you know, Ithink you know, I'm twice
(04:56):
exceptional.
You're twice exceptional, I'mpretty sure.
Correct, yes, sir.
So I thought this would be theperfect time to pull out all the
guns and talk about this, butwhat we might do just before we
do get started, I'll just do alittle bit of housekeeping.
So, just for any new listenersout there, if you haven't
(05:18):
already done so, pleasesubscribe, like and follow to
all of our social media pages.
We're available on TikTok,facebook, instagram, x, twitch,
YouTube, linkedin, and if youhaven't already done so, please
go to wherever you listen toyour podcasts and subscribe to
us, comment, give us a thumbs up.
It really helps with thealgorithm.
(05:40):
Also, check out our sponsor,neurodiversity Academy.
You can check us out atneurodiversityacademycom.
I think this next part's funnyNot really funny, but warning
some discussions may betriggering.
If you need help, please reachout to a loved one or call
emergency services.
(06:00):
We are not doctors.
The thing is you are a doctor.
We have a doctor here today.
That's why I thought it wasfunny.
This is a space for sharingexperiences and strategies.
Also, too, if you've got anyquestions, please put it into
the live chat.
Wherever you're listening to usthrough a live stream, say
(06:25):
through our social mediaplatforms, and if it's something
we think would be great toshare, we'll put it onto the
podcast, so you know what wemight do.
Dr Matt, you know there couldbe some new listeners who maybe
have never listened to youbefore or know much about you.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Please share a little bit about yourself yeah, so I'm
a clinical psychologist and aprofessional speaker who works
with primarily withneurodivergent kids and um, you
know and adults to help them gettheir needs met.
And I do this work because I ama twice exceptional person
(07:05):
myself.
I am gifted in ADHD and youknow.
So when I was little, I reallywas like I want to work with
people like me, I want to helppeople whose brains work like my
brain and you know, and I'vebuilt sort of this whole career
around this and it's, it's beena great ride ride, I mean.
They're as we learn more aboutthese brains and like the
(07:29):
messaging comes out more online,what you're seeing is more and
more people leaning into like,oh, the differences in my brain
matter and I can use theunderstanding of those
differences to get my knees metat school, at work, with my
(07:49):
friends, with my loved ones, andit really goes a long way to
making your life better.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy.
Yeah it's, I think.
You know, for me, when I wasgrowing up, you know, twice
exceptional just wasn't a termthat was really used.
You know when do you reckonthat really came into place,
that term?
Out of curiosity?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So it's been in the field, it's been in the journals
and the articles for 40, 50years at this point, but it
really didn't make its way intolike more common understanding
until the 2000s.
And so there are still somemental health professionals and
administrators out there who aregoing to say, like a kid can't
(08:35):
be gifted and autistic, theycan't be both Like.
No, they not only can, many ofthem are.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
What type of people are saying that, bud?
Because if you fully are in theneurodiversity field and this
is just me guessing this rightwouldn't you be like, well, no,
that's wrong.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Well, and that's the thing.
Imagine, I think about oneparticular school psychologist
that I've crossed swords with afew times.
You know, this is a guy who gothis job in the 70s and it rode
his out.
I mean like, yes, we havecontinuing education obligations
, but it's easy enough to cherrypick what you want to learn and
(09:20):
not see broader sea changes inthe field and not see broader
sea changes in the field.
And and also, a lot of it stemsfrom the fact that we've tried
to cram psychology through themedical model.
Right, so you have a cold.
That is a thing that we candiagnose.
It's a thing I can point to andbe like ha ha, it's a cold If
you break your leg, if yousprain your elbow.
(09:41):
Those are things we can image.
See, they're concrete, they'rediscrete things.
Mental health andneurodivergence they're messier
right.
Like you're someone who'sdepressed, you can also have
anxiety.
You can also have ADHD.
Those things may have a lot todo with each other.
They may have nothing to dowith each other, but our brains
are almost like a quantum stateThings exist and not exist and
(10:06):
work in very weird relationshipsto each other, and these are
the sort of things that themedical model fails to grasp.
So you're seeing ever so slowlypsychology shifting to be a
little bit more holistic view ofhow humans are, and I think
(10:27):
that's going to help us start totreat things as more broad
topics like neurodivergent,without getting so hung up on
what the neurodivergent is,Whereas that might work in the
medical model, Because if theysaid you have cancer, your first
question is going to be where'sthe cancer?
I need to do this so I can dosomething about it, like I know
my.
(10:48):
You've got cancer.
Great, great.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
No more words, please , right you know, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, um, but.
But so what I'm sort ofthinking is, if you're talking
about that gentleman who got hisstarted in the 70s, would it be
hard for someone like that youknow, like the term, you can't
teach an old dog new tricks you?
(11:14):
Is it sort of like that type ofthing that they're just not
open to change or realizing that, oh my god, what I've been
talking about for all theseyears, that doesn't't really
apply now.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Well, probably the best way to think about it right
now is that there's a lot ofpeople who are leaning into the
concept of being AUDHD.
Right so, the AU is autism andthen ADHD.
Right so, because many years wethought you couldn't be
(11:48):
autistic and ADHD.
Right, like one is, itoverwhelms the other.
Now we know a lot more nuancedabout how the prefrontal cortex
works and how these systems offunctioning in the brain work.
As our, as our, as ourunderstanding of the brain gets
more nuanced, we can see thedifferent pathways these things
(12:09):
take, and I think that's why wecan have these conversations now
that we couldn't have 20 yearsago, because we just know so
much more and, at the same time,know so comparably very little
about the brand.
But we're moving in a directionwhere you're seeing more people
(12:32):
really embrace this ADHD modelLike rock on do the thing right,
because, as I'm fond of sayingin life, it is better to know
that you're a zebra, not a weirdhorse.
There's a lot of people outthere who think they're weird
horses, right?
They're thinking like oh, like,every other horse can do these
things.
(12:52):
Why can't I do that thing?
It's because perhaps, my friend, you were a zebra the whole
time.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, no, interesting .
Look, moving on from that, whatdoes twice exceptional mean?
You know, I know you and I knowthis, but like there could be a
lot of listeners who are likewhat's this term?
And I know with a lot of.
So with neurodiversity Academy,we're doing a lot of work in
(13:21):
vocational education and we'relooking to go into higher
education and I think it'sreally important to be able to
learn about those types oflearners, because I know when I
was younger, it was verydifficult for me because people
just didn't understand that Iwas incredibly intelligent but
(13:44):
struggled with so many otherthings.
So you're already put into thehard basket a lot of the time,
where it's like what the hell isgoing on.
So could you please explain itin maybe a little bit more
detail?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, so twice exceptional is when you have a
gifted level IQ and some sort ofsecondary or other learning
difference so anotherneurodivergence and that those
are usually ADHD, autism andspecific learning disabilities
like dyslexia, dysgraphia,dyscalculia or dyspraxia.
(14:19):
Now there are other things thatare under that umbrella, but
those are sort of the big six.
Those are the ones we talkabout a lot, and what that tells
us is that gifted as aneurodivergence already comes
with strengths and weaknesses,peaks and valleys higher the
(14:45):
highs and the lower the lows,right.
And what I like to tell peopleis that there are, sort of
unofficially, three differentkinds of twice exceptional kids.
There's the kind of twiceexceptional like me, when I was
a kid where I was gifted insecond grade and no one ever
paid attention to the fact thatI always forgot that there was
tests.
My backpack looked like a bomb,went off, right.
I always forgot the homeworkbut did it in three minutes
before class and got an A on itright.
(15:07):
So my strengths outweighed,like overshadowed, my weaknesses
.
It wasn't until school gotharder than I was smart that
people were like oh my gosh, youtotally have ADHD.
I'm like, I totally do.
And then there's more whichsort of sounds like your
experience, where they'refocusing more on the deficits,
the like.
This is a problem kid.
(15:28):
This kid can't sit still, thiskid can't pay attention, this
kid can't read right, andthey're so busy focusing on what
you can't do that they, theyhave a tough.
They don't ever stop to thinkwhat could you do and what are
the?
What skills you have, you know.
So if we don't ever, if if akid shows up and they can't read
and that's all we focus on, wemay never learn that they're
(15:49):
great problem solvers or greatwriters or great mathematicians.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
You're already put in the too hard basket, yeah, and
then that's all you see.
Well, yeah, well, yeah Well.
I remember, if I think back toschool, it was very confusing
because I was failing big timewith a lot of the main subjects.
(16:15):
So math's, I remember I wasincredibly great at sport and I
think once I got into theworking world that was where my
strengths really started toshine.
(16:36):
But, you know, during that timethrough school it was incredibly
difficult and, um, it caused alot of, I suppose, mental harm,
if that's the word I'm lookingfor.
Uh, because you're you reallydoubt yourself.
So, and and and it's actuallyinteresting because I have
connected with a lot of people Iused to go to school with and,
(16:59):
um, I often, you know, they knowa lot of the work I'm doing and
withdiversity, all of that, andthey're like, oh, I'm
neurodivergent as well.
I'm like wow, I didn't evenknow that.
And I said, oh, and I talked tothem and I talked to them about
like how I had no confidenceand I really had a bad time
(17:21):
during school, my mental healthwas bad, and they're like what?
I didn't think that at all, Ijust saw you as the cool popular
kid and I'm thinking I'm the, Iwas the cool popular kid I.
I just didn't see that becauseall of these other things were
going on in my head which weretaking me away from what
(17:42):
everyone else was perceiving meas, which was just blows my mind
.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, and I mean that's just thank you for
sharing that right, because ourperceptions of ourselves can be
so discordant with how the worldsees us, in a positive way or a
negative way.
Right, and and let me, beforewe dive deeper into that, let me
talk about the third kinds oftwice exceptional kid.
So you could imagine, right,that if you were really good at
(18:14):
some things, right, like, let'ssay, in school you take tests
and do papers really well, soyou're getting good marks on all
those things, but you don't payattention in class, you don't
participate, you don't always doyour homework, so those things,
but you don't pay attention inclass, you don't participate,
you don't always do yourhomework, so those things all
come out as zeros.
So if we, if we throw all thoseterms together and we weight
them appropriately, what you'regoing to end up with is an
(18:36):
average score, right.
So in the field this is calledthe gifted C, because in the US
we use the letters grade system,right.
So you know.
So it's this idea that if youlook at a kid's grades at the
end of the year and it's allaverage, average, average,
average, average, average yourbrain automatically defaults to
(18:56):
that kid is just average.
But a lot of times you'll have akid who's high highs and low
lows cancel each other out, sothey end up in the middle.
And you, you'll have a kidwho's high highs and low lows
cancel each other out, so theyend up in the middle.
And you know, you think about a, you know, think about your
favorite.
You know your favorite.
Um, you know, uzzy rulesfootball team.
Like there are some great teams, there are some terrible teams
(19:19):
and there are some teams thathave great players and lousy
players, so they end up in themiddle of the pack.
Right, it doesn't change thefact that they have great
players but lousy players, sothey end up in the middle of the
pack.
Right, it doesn't change thefact that they have great
players.
But if all you did was look atthe standings and then you're
like oh, you know the, uh, youknow the rabidos are just an
average regular team, when theyactually might be much, the real
story might be much morenuanced than that yeah, crazy,
(19:43):
crazy, crazy.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Um.
So you know, moving on fromthat, sorry, how can someone be
gifted and have challenges?
And I know you sort of said alittle bit about that and you
know, and I think maybe somepeople, and I think, like you
were saying before, like it cansort of cancel things out, like
(20:07):
not cancel, I don't know ifthat's the right word, but like,
sometimes our strengths arewhat's the word I'm looking for,
and maybe when I was in school,maybe people didn't realise I
was struggling so hard becausemaybe my strengths was
socialising and being out thereand people were just seeing that
and not seeing that I wasreally struggling there.
(20:30):
So how can someone be bothgifted and have challenges?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
So this gets into a lot of the neuroscience of being
neurodivergent, right.
So if you're a neurotypicalperson, right, and 80% of people
are neurotypical, that meansthat those people's brains work
basically as we expect them towork, right?
20% of us are neurodivergent,right, and giftedness is a part
(21:00):
of that.
Twice exceptional is a part ofthat.
When you're neurodivergent, youdevelop asynchronously, you go
out of sync.
So if you imagine that thereare five developmental spheres,
right, intellectual, academic,social, emotional and physical.
Now for most people each one ofthose five get 20%.
Right, it's an equaldistribution.
(21:20):
When you're neurodivergent,that process becomes disrupted.
So you might get intellectualand academic.
They each get 30%, not 20%.
And since there's a finiteamount of energy, there's that
the rest of that 40% now splitamongst three things.
So you see kids with weakersocial, emotional and physical
(21:41):
skills.
We could also infer that, right, you were a kid who was great
at sport, so maybe you got 25%or 30% in that area and maybe it
dragged you down a little bit.
Academically, but notintellectually right, because we
know you're a very smart human,right, but we all know
academics doing school is askill Not everybody.
Not intellectually right,because we know you're a very
smart human right.
But we all know academics,doing school, is a skill.
(22:02):
Not everybody gets that right.
So what we see is that the moredisrupted this developmental
path becomes, there areessentially like pockets or
holes that occur in somebody'sdevelopmental path.
So you might have a kid.
I'm thinking about a young womanI work with.
She was diagnosed with dyslexiaand dysgraphia, so you know
(22:25):
physical disability in writingand reading.
She's also gifted and peoplewould say, oh well, she's
probably gifted in likenonverbal learning, right?
Like she's probably a good STEMstudent.
She had a gifted verbal IQ.
How could she do that?
Because when she answered thequestions verbally she had great
hearing, right.
So I asked her like I won't useher real name, becca, like
(22:47):
Becca, what does the wordarrogant mean?
And she would pop thatdefinition out, right.
But in school it would be theword arrogant would be on a
worksheet and she would have toread that word and then write
the definition.
Yeah, couldn't do, right.
So what we gave this kid was avoice to text system and told
(23:07):
her to write a story.
And she's like I can't write.
I'm like, right.
So how about this?
Tell me a story and I'm tellingyou the.
The story that exploded out ofher was one of the best things
I've ever read from any authorof any age.
(23:32):
And just sitting there andwatching this girl who was so
convinced that she was lesssmart, less good because of her
learning differences she wastheir classic type two kid.
No one would have ever thoughtto look for those strengths.
We were in a position to do sobecause of the kind of school I
met her at and you know, I knownow that she's doing amazing
work in the spaces she's in as acreative type person, and
that's you know, when you thinkabout the opportunities we have
(23:55):
to unlock the talents in people.
I mean that's why we all dowhat we do right, that's why you
do what you do and I do what Ido.
All the teachers andprofessionals who listen to this
podcast like we're trying tofind that spark in those kids.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
So would you say that technology has really helped
that person that you're speakingabout?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
I mean technology can be one of the biggest tools to
help kids overcome thechallenges that come with being
neurodivergent.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Because I've got to admit that technology has
changed my life to unbelievable.
I just feel like I'm ahead ofeveryone else now, almost um not
by the technology, because whatI have always wanted to get out
of my head, I'm now able toutilize technology to be able to
(24:50):
help me get that out therewhere in the past it's put me.
It's been a real challenge togo.
How do I get this onto paper?
You know, let's say AI has beengreat for me.
I don't know how it is foreveryone else, but for me it's
been great because a lot of thetime and you've probably come
(25:13):
across this a lot just startingsomething is incredibly hard.
What does that need to looklike?
How do I start?
Now I can just go to chat GPTand say, look, I'm creating this
.
What do I need to create?
Where do I start?
And then it's just like theboom gates open, the water just
comes flushing out.
(25:34):
If that makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
And I thinking about a, an adult I work with,
actually, who he has a lot oflike, perfectionistic tendencies
, a lot of anxiety, so what?
What we do for him is, well, Iwas like, listen, when you need
to get a rough draft, use chatgpt to give you a rough draft.
Then you go through and editwhat ChatGPT has to say and you
(26:00):
do it in your voice and you putyour knowledge in there.
And what he's found is thatChatGPT raises the floor and
then he can raise the ceilingRight, and but he has such a
tough time getting started thathe might never write the copy if
he has to do it himself, butsay like all right, chat gpt do
(26:23):
this thing.
And then he goes and gets acoffee and he comes back and
there's a halfway decent, youknow page and a half on whatever
he needs to talk about gettingideas right.
And then he goes like, oh,that's good, that's good, I
would change that this.
Oh, we need to expand on thispoint.
And he's you know, he's carryingall this secret shame.
And I was like well, what if hetold your boss?
(26:44):
He's like well, then I wouldget fired immediately.
I'm like, would you, because Igot to tell you I would bet you
a steak dinner that you're notthe only person at your job
who's using chat GPT.
So he did sort of mention thatto his boss's boss, like, oh
(27:06):
yeah, we all use it.
Just don't ever submitsomething that's chat gpt and
claim that it's you and his wifelikes that world right.
So all of a sudden his life'sgotten easier and more
manageable and he hasn't had tochange right.
He didn't have to fix his brain.
He's using tools in a way thatallows him to play to his
strengths and everybody'shappier for it.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, no, it's awesome.
I love the period and it'sprobably only going to get
better that I'm like, oh my God,I am able to get these things
done, and then people are so myGod, I am able to get these
things done, and then people areso.
For example, I developed aprofessional development course
(27:44):
the other day.
Now, I've probably always beenable to do that, but you know, a
lot of the time I've hadself-doubt Because you know I
haven't worked in that fieldbefore of like structural design
, in learning and all of that.
But being able to sit down withChatGPT and just go, look, where
(28:07):
do I start, what do I need?
It would spit me out stuff andI'd be like I don't like that.
You know what I mean and buildoff from it.
I know exactly what I've put inthere.
I haven't.
You know it's not.
Some people may see that usingchat GPT might be classed as
cheating, but you know, for meit's not cheating at all.
(28:30):
It's like going okay, that'sgood, that sucks, get rid of
that, we don't need all of that.
And I've just been able tobuild off from that, if that
makes sense I mean absolutely,and in its own way.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
It's the, it's the logical evolution of.
People used to hate computersbecause they thought that it
made typing irrelevant.
People used to hate wordprocessing programs.
They're like well, aren't goingto learn how to handwrite.
And it's just like guys, can weall just get off our high
horses for a second here?
Right, there's always going tobe a need to handwrite, just
(29:09):
like there's always going to bea need to create your own
content.
But when we can work smarter,not harder, work smarter, not
harder.
You know, like, if I'm cookingdinner for my family and I
forget to defrost the chicken, Idon't not cook dinner for my
family because I didn't put thischicken in.
I put it in the microwave andthen the microwave defrosted for
(29:29):
me.
Then I cook the chicken.
I mean it's.
You know, I don't go in thebackyard and kill a bird and
break it down myself because wedon't have chickens and frankly,
that creeps me out.
Man, I wouldn't want to.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, right, like so do you live in like a suburban
area?
Yes, so I think your neighborsmight be a little bit like oh my
god, dr matt's really loosewith a sharp knife and like in
blood.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
You know that's, that's, that's how you make bad
relations with the neighbors.
You know, totally it's.
So.
It's the sort of thing like Iremember.
I remember reading a book abouttechnology in the classroom a
few years ago and it bothered mebecause they were like well,
kids today can't read maps, theycan only use the gps.
And I'm like, do you well, doyou remember using maps?
(30:17):
You have to fold them, and itwas like always the worst fold
in human using maps.
You have to fold them and itwas like always the worst fold
in human history.
And then you have to figure outwhere you are and like, yeah,
you're like okay, so Uluru isthere.
Yeah, who is sitting in cans?
So I think something has gonewrong and like, objectively
speaking, gpss are a bettersystem than maps.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
But they still have their flaws.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Yeah, and that because there is no perfect
system.
Five years from now, whenthere's a better thing than GPS,
whatever that might be, thereare going to be people like ah,
you remember the good old daysof.
GPS, yeah, jeez, like, let's alljust calm down a second.
And it is helpful to be able toread a map.
If your GPS goes out, like ifyou're on walkabout and you need
(31:05):
to find a way home, gps isn'tgoing to help you, but knowing
how to read a map could.
So it's not either, or it'swhat's the best tool for this
job right.
Best tool for this job right.
And so much of taking the ideasof neurodivergent education
right and expanding them tosociety.
(31:25):
This is what we call universaldesign, because the best
practices for neurodivergentkiddos are just the best
practices, full stop, right, youcan.
If a kid is really good atsomething, we want to give them
those skills and give them asmuch exposure as we can and then
teach them the other thingsthey need to know along the way.
Every person on planet Earthwould benefit from that kind of
(31:47):
model, whether that's at schoolor at work.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
It's almost like a calculator, right?
Do you know what I mean?
Like before, calculators were athing you had to do that in
your head or on a piece of paper, right?
Then you were given acalculator in school.
You know how's that notdifferent to utilizing this
technology?
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Correct Right.
I mean, and there are times Iremember being in school,
teachers were like you're notalways going to have a
calculator with you First off,yes, I do.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Is that a calculator?
Or is that your phone?
My phone, right.
I suppose, it is a calculator.
I was going to say you've gotan old school calculator.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, at all times Will.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Here's my slide rule.
Here's my protractor yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's also.
You know, I do a lot of IQtesting as part of my job, right
?
And when we're diagnosing kidsas gifted or twice exceptional,
you've got to do the testing.
When I'm running those numbers,I don't do the math in my head
(32:54):
I could I'm very good at mentalmath but I use a calculator
because the calculator issmarter than me.
The calculator is not going todrop a one or forget to carry
the negative sign.
The calculator is going to dothe job and, frankly, do it
faster than me because I use acalculator.
(33:15):
Just like I don't think you'reworse at writing or social media
or whatever you use chat GBTfor if you're using that tool,
right, Because you know a toolmatters, but the user matters
more.
Right, it's not the it's, youknow, it's not the plane, it's
the pilot, right, and thatmatters.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Do you know what right, like, I was speaking to a
doctor who's doing a lot ofresearch in, you know,
supporting students who arestruggling in higher education,
vocational education.
She's also looking at likeonline education, which is huge,
and we were talking about likethe use of technology to be able
(34:01):
to support neurodivergentstudents and a big thing,
especially in the vocational andhigher education space.
We are seeing a lot of peopleusing ChatGPT to cheat, if that
makes sense, and I spoke to herabout this and I said what are
your thoughts that you know chatGPT is?
(34:23):
You know people are using it tocheat and she goes look, the
thing is, cheating has alwaysbeen there.
We're just in a different realmof cheating now.
Like before, say, chat GPTwould copy, uh, um, someone
else's assignment or um.
They would just copy and pastestraight from google into um,
(34:48):
their document or whatever thinglike that.
And it's like this is just thenew way of um of cheating.
But, like you were saying before, it does come down to the
individual.
What's the individual going totake away if they're just
putting in something thatthey've copied or whatever they
haven't been a part of creating?
And I think for me, when Icreate something like a course
(35:12):
or whatever like that.
I don't just copy and paste andput it in and not know what
I've put in there.
I know exactly what I've put inbecause a lot of the time I've
gone that is crap.
I need something.
That's more what I'm lookingfor.
If that makes sense, right.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
And I mean that's exactly it.
And this society always pushesback on change, right, because
change is hard and it's easy.
Well, kids will use it to cheat.
You're right.
You know what else kids used tocheat their phones, their
laptops and before that, theirbuddies.
(35:49):
And before that, running offcopies of the exam and slipping
them into somebody's notebookright, and I'm sure plato and
aristotle had somebody was likecarving out, like chiseled
things on the side, like yeah, Igot this right, like yeah, yeah
, no, so the.
And I actually think that's whywe're seeing increased shift to
(36:13):
creative outlets and processesand project-based learning,
because there are things thatnot only resist cheating but
force the kind of engagementthat makes you not want to cheat
in the first place.
If I have to take a chaptertest with 25 questions from a
book I didn't read, it is a loteasier to be like chat to GPT
(36:33):
tell me the summary of that bookand then take my chances based
on the summary of the book.
But if it's like, here are theideas of that book and then take
my chances based on the summaryof the book.
But if it's like here are theideas of the book 1984, now I
want you to put that, tell mewhat that would look like in
minecraft.
Or tell me what that would looklike in at a surfing
competition.
Or tell me what that would looklike in a french restaurant.
(36:55):
Like we're're sending thingsout in the lens of the kid's
interest and forcing them to notonly engage with the
information but engage in theway that you can't cheat that
you you have.
You know, if you're buildingsomething, making something, it
is much harder to cut thosecorners and what you're going to
find is kids are going to buildmore resilience, they're going
(37:16):
to trust the process more andthey're not going to want to
cheat as much.
Because that's the kind of thingwhere my grandfather always
said this that hard work is itsown reward.
The thing he missed was hardwork.
That means something is its ownreward.
Right, I could go ask you to gomow your backyard by by hand.
(37:36):
Will?
Right, go get some scissors andthey go that's hard Considering
I live in an apartment thatwould be incredibly hard.
Do it anyway, right?
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yeah, I can do it anyway.
My neighbors might think I'mcrazy, but I'll give it a go um
do love.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I'd be like what's he doing?
Speaker 1 (38:00):
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.
But no, look, moving on fromthat, like so what issues do 2e
students face in school?
And I've sort of named a few ofthem there, but what
specifically would they maybecome against?
A lot of the time, I knowmisunderstanding was a big one
for me misunderstanding.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
And that asynchrony is another big thing because we
tend to treat kids at thehighest level of their
functioning right.
So if you have a 10 year oldwho's intellectually 16 and
talks and acts like a 16 yearold, you're going to start
recalibrating your mentalexpectations of that kid.
That, oh, they're 16.
They're there, they're an adult, right.
(38:44):
But then they do something thata 10 year old does pick their
nose or make a fart noise inclass or say girls are gross or
whatever 10 year olds do, right.
Then you'd be like you're thatmuch more disappointed because
you're not grading them as a 10year old, you're grading them as
a 16 year old, right.
And so when I talk to parentsand teachers, like when you've
(39:06):
got a neurodivergent kid, thefirst thing you got to do is
stop and remind yourself how oldis this kid Not how old do they
act or how old do they seem,but how old they are, because
that's going to make much morerealistic expectations, which
are going to make yourinterventions much more
reasonable.
Let's take that a step furtherand talk about one of the other
(39:29):
ways they struggle through.
That asynchrony is that kidsdon't necessarily have the
social and emotional skills tomanage the challenges we're
handling, handing them right.
So, you know, to our goodfriend Photon John, right?
You know, a very commonintervention for musically
(39:50):
gifted kids is to move them upto the next school's band.
So if you're a middle schoolstudent, we would move you up to
the high school.
Right, and this kid canabsolutely do the music right.
If it's the flute or the drumsor the saxophone they can do it.
But can they handle being in aroom with a bunch of high school
kids who are talking about highschool things?
Right?
(40:11):
Can they create relationships?
Can they emotionally handle thestress and the higher stakes?
You know one of the kids I workwith.
He was just at his firstmarching band competition and he
had a panic attack because he'slike I'm the littlest and
youngest person here and he'slike, pound for pound, I might
be the best musician on thefield but I'm shrimp compared to
(40:33):
these giant hulking kids, andyou know.
So he and I were on the phone,I helped him calm down and we
talked about settingexpectations.
But it's like we've got to bevery nuanced and very
intentional with how we put ininterventions for kids like this
, because the reality is thatthat asynchrony model says a kid
(40:56):
who's 10 years old but canoperate like a 16-year-old on
their best but operates like asix-year-old at their worst.
All parts of that kid have toexist if we're going to come up
with a plan that serves them.
So it means we've got to reallybe thoughtful in how we attach
these things.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
See, if I think back to when I was in school, I would
always be in arguments with myteachers or I'd tell them to you
know, go F off.
Or you know what I mean.
Because a lot of the time and Ilook back at it now and I'm
like, oh my God, I was so ADHD.
They had no idea that I wasADHD, and a lot of the things
(41:40):
that were getting under theirskin I had no idea about and I
felt like they were attacking meand probably because I didn't
have, you know, the I suppose,the maturity to be able to go oh
, you know, approach it properly.
I wouldn't do that now, ofcourse, I would just lose it at
(42:02):
the teachers.
So it's a common thing I found.
Yeah, you know, but would youfind that would be something
that some TUI students maystruggle with as well, because
they're not really comprehendingwhat the teacher sort of
understands about them.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Oh, absolutely.
And let's throw another layeron that, because if you don't
understand yourself, it'sawfully hard to accept somebody
else understanding you ormisunderstanding you.
Right, and that's a thing thatwhen we see.
That these kids, you know, justgo back to the words we used
(42:45):
before.
They're walking around thinkingthey're weird horses and they
don't want to be a weird horse,but they don't know they can be
a zebra.
They don't know what that lookslike, so there's an angst to
what that is and what that feelslike, well, that was probably
me.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Remember.
I spoke about, like, how I wasin school and I'm thinking, man,
I'm not learning that I was thecool popular kid.
I was definitely thinking I wasthe weird horse.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Yeah, right, and everyone's like that's the
coolest zebra I've ever met.
Oh my God, that's right.
I guess, to make this moreAussie, we could, like a lot of
people think they're kangaroos,but they're really wallabies.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
I don't know.
Yes, true, true, true, they'resmaller.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Right, and not all dogs are dingoes, something like
that.
We'll figure it out, but theidea here is that you can't name
it to tame it if you don't knowwhat it is you're trying to
name, right.
So that's why podcasts likethis are so important, because
(43:46):
there are going to be people outthere who are hearing this and
thinking, holy shit, they'retalking about me.
I didn't know that this wordexisted for somebody like me.
You know, and you know I have a.
I have a client I work with,who's you know, through our the
course of the work we've donefor many years.
He was like so, dr Matt, like,and so there's a big overlap
(44:07):
between the LGBTQ community andthe neurodivergent community.
There's a lot of overlap there.
Yeah, totally Right.
And he's a very neurodivergentkid.
He's like Dr Matt, I got totell you you, I, I don't it
seems like everybody else hascrushes on people and like, gets
sexually attracted to people.
It's always like oh, they're sohot and they're so hot and
they're so hot and they're likeI don't feel those ways like,
(44:31):
and he's like I don't think it'sthat I don't like girls, that I
like boys, I just don't likeanybody.
And he's like is thisdepression.
Is there something wrong withme?
And I, you know, let him talkfor a while.
I was like buddy, have you everheard of the term asexual?
And he's like I've heard ofthat term and I'm like so here's
what asexual means, right?
And some people abbreviate itas ace.
So I, you know, here's an acecommunity near you.
(44:54):
And he went to a, a meeting,and he's like these are my
people.
I didn't know that that was anoption.
I didn't know that was a termyou want to say.
You can't name entertainment ifyou don't know what you're
trying to name now he's a proudasexual student.
He has the asexual flag in hisdorm, right and and, and.
Of course, like, people willcome in and be like oh, what
(45:14):
flag is that?
Because you know he is notcaucasian, let's say and people
will come in and be like oh man,is that your home country?
Speaker 1 (45:26):
that's hilarious.
Oh my god, is that your?
Speaker 2 (45:32):
why don't you mess with people?
Be like ah yes, that's thecountry I'm from.
What country do you think I'mfrom?
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, true, true, true.
But look, you know, what effectdoes that bring?
Oh sorry, what effect doesbeing 2E have on self-esteem?
So you know, we've just spokenabout like people not
understanding certain thingsabout themselves and all of that
(45:58):
.
And I can tell you right nowthat for me, especially leaving
high school, my self-esteem wasright down.
That was where I started to getinto drugs, alcohol, because
that was what really.
It almost killed the pain, ifthat makes sense.
You know, and I think this, andyou know it's interesting.
(46:23):
Sometimes I think if I hadknown earlier, would my life
have been different or would Ihave still?
And look, I think sometimes toothat what I did experience,
maybe that did contribute to whoI am today, if that makes sense
.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yeah, yeah.
And I mean I'll tell you likeone of the things that hurts
twice exceptional kids inparticular as compared to gifted
kids is there's this perceptionthat gifted kids are good kids,
right, and so a gifted kidwould never smoke marijuana.
A gifted kid would never go anddrink alcohol, right.
(47:03):
And then, like I think aboutmyself in high school and I was
smoking a lot of marijuana andnobody knew because I had to get
out of my head, right, like itwas a 38-piece orchestra up here
and everybody else has got likethe clapping monkey and I'm
like, and it's like it wasexhausting, right.
(47:26):
And so if you don't understandthe full impact of being
neurodivergent on trying to livein the world, then you would
never think that a gifted orneurodivergent kid would would
turn to drugs or alcohol.
But a lot of the kids that Italk to who do use those
substances say, for the samereasons, like I want to get out
of my head, I want to not feelthis way for a little while and
(47:48):
I know it's not the best thingin the world for me, right.
But also like, what otheroptions do I have?
Because I don't know if you'veseen the world recently, dr matt
, but holy shit, and and I'mlike, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, like you, there arereasons to want to get out of
your head.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
And considering what's just happened in your
country, it's going to get ahell of a lot more interesting.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And interesting is a very kindword for what I would rather say
, which we would probably haveto bleep out, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
So that's fun.
It might create you some morebusiness, Dr Matt.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
I'm never going to be out of work, but, yes, things
are very like a lot of clientsthat have come out of the
woodwork this week.
I'm like, come on in, come onin, it's you know, it's like.
It's like the guy who, like,builds the life raft if there
might be a flood, and theneveryone's like, oh my God, the
videos are fine.
Like, go and get on the raft.
I told you, I told you Right,right, so, yeah, you right at
(49:07):
the back, right so yeah, I mean,you know it.
Really it's hard to be out there, and one of the things that
makes it harder for people likeus is that the world is not
built for people like us.
Right, 80 of people areneurotypical, so they built the
world for them and they didn'tdo it intentionally to hurt us.
Right, there was no mal intent,ill intent there, but the
reality is the world doesn'twork for people like us.
(49:28):
It's not meant to work forpeople like us.
So we have to find a way tobuild our own skills to navigate
those worlds.
That doesn't involve sellingourselves out, right, and that's
honestly why I wrote my book.
Like the whole idea is crack,like the subtitle is cracking
the code of a world not builtfor you, because I don't want
you will to ever not be wellright.
(49:49):
I love your gifted adhddyslexic like it's.
It's that's what makes you soyou know a fun podcast host and
frankly, it makes you my friend.
Right, yeah, yeah, but thereare going to be times like you
know a fun podcast host and,frankly, he makes you my friend
Right, yeah, yeah, but there aregoing to be times, like you
know, if you meet with theAustralian government, they're
like we want to give you a $3million grant to take your show
on the road.
You've got to be the mostneurotypical version of will to
(50:11):
get that.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
Yeah, you're dead right, and I'm like hello
government.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
I am, will Wheeler, look at me being very
appropriate, and you're going toget out of there and you're
going to take your suit and tieoff and like, put down a couple
of VBs and be like, let's go, vbmate.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
I'll have to be.
Things must be going pretty bad, if I'm turning to the VB mate.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Hey, there's a steak and two eggs in every VB.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
That's what they told me.
When I looked An alcoholic'ssteak and two eggs I think I was
more of a Carlton cold guymyself.
Yeah, carlton's not too bad.
Honestly, I don't drink muchbeer these days.
I try to stay away from it.
But anyway, that's a wholenother.
We can make a whole differentpodcast on that, right, that'll
be episode three We'll talkabout.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
You know, like, really get into the substances,
yeah.
But yeah, I mean, it's notbuilt for us.
We've got to find ways to.
The technical term for this iscode switch, right?
So I'm going to speak one wayto you, because you and I are
neurologically very similar,right.
Then I would speak to the headof a university or my kid's
(51:21):
teacher, right?
Or my in-laws, like that's,actually my in-laws are super
neurodivergent.
That's a fail, but, um, butthat's the thing it's like it's.
Don't sell yourself out, butdevelop the skill to shift your
focus as needed, right, andthat's how we navigate different
situations better.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
It's interesting because I think for me, probably
the last 10 years, my careerwell, actually since the
pandemic, my career has reallyskyrocketed into a lot of
positive things.
Because I remember before thepandemic I would always be
(52:04):
wearing suits, you know, shorthair, very clean cut, and I just
felt like I wasn't reallyprogressing to, or I was trying
to, be someone I wasn't.
And during the pandemic it wassort of like you know what.
Obviously, I had a lot of timeto think over a lot of things
(52:24):
and I was like you know what,I'm going to be more me.
And once I was able to startbeing more myself, that was
where the magic really startedto happen.
Yes, I am going into certainsituations where I have to try
and not be who I am and Isometimes come up against a
(52:46):
little bit of um friction there.
It can be sometimes difficult,but I'm just finding being more
myself.
I've been able to succeed a lotfaster than when I was trying
to be someone.
I wasn't type of thing.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Yeah, and that's that's I mean, like if there's a
singular takeaway from thisepisode and I hope that people
take a lot of takeaways from itis absolutely that it's that you
are going to go much furtherand faster and have more
meaningful success being themost authentic version of you
(53:23):
than trying to be somebodyyou're not right.
Yeah, try to be neurotypical.
If you're not neurotypical,find environments that allow you
to lean into yourneurodivergence and be the best
version yeah, it was actuallyinteresting.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
So while I'm building neurodiversity academy, I have
to work a part-time job.
That's that's what anentrepreneur has to do when
you're building a business right.
And so what I do?
I actually um help people withdisabilities start businesses.
So I work with like thegovernment gives like money to
people to help them start abusiness, but I always share
(54:00):
that.
I'm dyslexic and adhd.
It was actually interesting.
I had this person stay back andask me questions the other day
and they're like oh my god, I'madhd.
Um, and she was talking abouthow she's like you know, I'm
really worried because when I'mlistening to people, I'm
actually doodling or doingsomething else, but I'm still
listening and doing this.
(54:21):
And she's like do you think Ishould change?
Or I'm like hell.
No, I said what you do is likeawesome, like if you can be who
you are.
And she's like but people getannoyed because I speak over the
top of them and I'm like look,the main thing is, you're
mindful of it.
When you can be yourself,that's where a lot of great
(54:45):
things are going to happen.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
You know, and I think that's just from my experience
anyway- I mean, I wouldabsolutely agree with you, right
, you, Right, and, and so muchof you know.
When I went to a summer campfor gifted students when I was
(55:07):
younger, I called my mom afterthe first day and I said, mom, I
don't have to pretend to not besmart here.
I don't have to spend thatmental energy holding myself
back because, surprise, surprise, when you're not holding
yourself back, you're puttingmore energy into the things that
make you special and awesome.
Like there's no downside tothat, right?
(55:28):
So I just tell people, like, ifyou find those spaces, then
you're going to be amazed atwhat you can do.
You know, and one of my favoriteexpressions has always been if
a flower is not growing, youdon't yell at the flower, you
change the greenhouse.
And I think that a lot of usare searching for those
(55:50):
greenhouses.
And you know you starting a.
You know you talking to a.
You know helping people starttheir own businesses who are,
you know, who have disabilities,like you're helping them create
their own greenhouse.
That's going to work well,right?
A really cool thing.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
Yeah, and I think just helping people to be able
to see what's good in themselves, especially when you're running
a business, is vital.
Yeah, absolutely.
But look, we are getting to thethe end.
But we do have another questionwhich I think sort of flows in
well with um what we're talkingabout.
What could schools andworkplaces do better to support
(56:31):
2e individuals?
Speaker 2 (56:34):
oh man, um, how much time do we have?
Four minutes, all right, let mesee.
What can I do.
All right, let's start with.
Let's start with we have tomeet kids where they are right,
and that is going to play outacross all different aspects of
that asynchronous developmentchart that we talked about
(56:55):
before.
So that's number one, rightMeet kids where they are.
So if you have a 10 old who canplay orchestral music like a 20
year old that reads like athree year old, then we've got
to get them, to get them into,um, you know, the music program
for 20 year old and teach themto read like a three year old.
(57:17):
Both pieces of that have to betrue, right?
Second piece here would be letkids go as high and as far and
as deep as they need to go inthe things they learn, because
so often we are teaching kidslike learn as much as you can
(57:37):
until I tell you to stop.
If a kid wants to know moreabout astronomy and the unit
only covers the eight planets,then we are missing an
opportunity to reach that kid ina meaningful way, because why
would we tell a kid to stop?
Right, let's keep going.
And then, last but not least,being smart isn't easy.
(58:04):
So I think that one of thethings that we have to do is Is
integrate more social, emotionallearning into the way that we
teach all neurodivergent kidsand really all kids in general,
right, but, like you know, it'snot easy to get along with
(58:25):
people.
It isn't especially if yourbrains don't work like theirs.
So if you can lean into those,if you can lean into those,
those spaces, and develop thoseskills, then you're going to
find that people are going torespond to you a lot more,
they're going to open up to youa lot more, and we will be much
(58:47):
better off for it.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
Yeah, awesome.
Well put, dr, Matt, well put.
Did I hear your?
Well, I didn't hear.
I know you've just released thebook, um, did you want to plug
it?
Speaker 2 (59:02):
I, I mean it's I would love to plug it so it's
called the uh neurodiversityplaybook and it's a.
It's a book.
That's sort of a lot about whatwe were talking about today,
like if you understand yourbrain, you can build the skills
that help you to to develop thethings you need to be successful
in today's world, and what thatlooks like for you as as a
(59:28):
neurodivergent person is goingto look different than somebody
else, right?
So, um, so, yeah, so it's.
It's funny.
It's got a lot of pop culturereferences's, kind of you know,
me on a, me in a book, right?
So if you've enjoyed thispodcast episode, you likely
wouldn't enjoy this book.
Um, and it's available onamazon.
(59:49):
Um, I don't know when they'regoing to ship them to australia,
but we do have a big order fromaustralia, so I know we're
sending some books thereeventually so, oh, I didn't
realize.
Speaker 1 (59:59):
I thought like you could get any book on amazon,
and but it can only be done percountry, can it?
Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
yeah, I think they, I think they um, because I
thought they print.
Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
It depends how you've got it, like I thought.
So it's not like you can't getlike a digital version of the
book.
Yeah it, it's all hard copy, isit?
Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
Well, we're going to release a digital version soon
and an audio book.
I just don't know when thoseare going to be.
Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, but keep an eye out for it
.
Yeah yeah, nice, nice, nice,nice, nice.
Sorry, I've just got something.
Something has popped up on myscreen here.
Thank god that's gone, um, butlook, dr matt, thank you so much
for coming on.
Uh, where else can um people uhconnect with you and find out
more about your work?
Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
oh man, well, I am chronically online, so that
would be a good place to startum.
So I have a um, so I have twoprimary roles, right?
I am a clinical psychologistand a professional speaker.
So for the psychology piece,you'd go to the
neurodiversitycollectivecom, andif you want me to speak to your
(01:01:14):
organization or your school,then you'd go Dr Matt
Sokreskicom.
So it's Dr Matt Sokreskicom ifyou want me for your
organization, theNeurodiversityCollectivecom if
you want me for you.
Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Yeah, awesome, dr Matt.
It's always a pleasure when wecatch up with you, my friend.
You're always very entertaining.
I do want to make my way toAmerica one day.
I'm hoping, with everythingthat's gone on, it's not going
to be too expensive to go toAmerica.
But, dr Matt, it's always apleasure, my friend.
Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
Well, when you come out, I will be the first person
to meet you at the airport andwe'll show you a good time here
in America, because there arestill good things about this
country, I promise.
Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
Totally.
I do want to come to your sidefor sure.
Yeah, anyway, but look.
Thank you so much, dr Matt, andfor all of our other listeners.
If you haven't already done so,please subscribe, like and
follow to all of our socialmedia platforms.
Check us out, subscribe andcomment on all of our things on
wherever you listen to yourpodcast.
My name's Will Wheeler and thisis Neurodivergent Mates.
(01:02:24):
Till next time.
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