August 12, 2025 • 49 mins
Comments about immigration are all over social media, in politicians' speeches, and in politicians' social media...but what is actually happening?
In this episode, Liz talks with Grace Kindeke about some of the myths circulating about immigration, including crime, social services, and higher education.
New episodes every Tuesday.
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Have an idea for an upcoming episode? Email Liz: newhampshirehasissues@gmail.com
Links:
- AFSC New Hampshire
- Know Your Rights: Immigrants' Rights (ACLU NH)
- Immigrants in NH Data (American Immigration Council)
- Protesters slam ICE flights at Pease: 'This just has to stop' (Seacoast Online)
- ACLU NH seeks answers on Berlin prison expansion into ICE detention center (Concord Monitor)
- A new law will require local police departments in NH to work with federal immigration enforcement (NHPR)
- Four of New Hampshire’s 10 counties now deputized to work with ICE (Concord Monitor)
- Hillsborough County convention approves large budget increase, removes funding for ICE agreement (Manchester InkLink)
- Hillsborough County delegation rejects funding to hold ICE detainees at Valley St. Jail (NHPR)
- Two proposed bills could limit driver’s licenses for immigrants in New Hampshire (NHPR)
- Immigration officials are going after people seeking asylum (NPR)
- Immigration crackdowns pose problems to businesses reliant on those in U.S. illegally (NPR)
- What’s behind recent false claims about immigrants and crime? (PolitiFact)
- Tax Payments by Undocumented Immigrants (Institute of Taxation and Economic Policy)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Liz Canada (00:00):
Most important question, though, is what is
your favorite
Grace Kindeke (00:03):
musical?
Oh my God, that's a toughquestion.
So I am a huge musical theaternerd.
I did a lot of musical theater.
Me too, Grace.
Me too.
I feel like there's synergyhere.
So I have a bunch, but I willsay like what has my heart right
now is of course Wicked.
So I was a huge fan of theBroadway stage play.
And then when I learned aboutthe reboot, I mean, I damn near
(00:25):
lost my mind.
And it's incredible.
And I'm so excited for thesecond one.
I can't even tell you.
Did you go opening night to themovie?
No, I didn't actually.
I don't know what was going on,probably because it came out
when I was still in school.
So I've literally, life was ablur between classes and work.
But as soon as I could hit thetheater, I
Liz Canada (00:43):
got to see it.
We'll allow it.
We'll allow that this time.
But the second part, openingnight, Grace.
I know, there's no excuses now.
You're listening to NewHampshire Has Issues, and I am
your host, Liz Canada.
(01:04):
I'm talking to you from thefuture because I wanted to share
a story.
I taught in Denver, Colorado.
I didn't grow up in Colorado.
I grew up in New Jersey.
Yikes.
The majority of the students atthe high school where I worked
were Latino.
In my first semester ofteaching as a new teacher, the
youngest person on staff, I hada student who I will refer to as
(01:24):
Teresa.
Teresa was a great kid, perfectgrades, always willing to
participate, which in a highschool English classroom, like,
oh, what a dream to have astudent who wants to participate
regularly, raise her hand, readout loud, all of that.
The beginning of every class,my students would come in and
they would get their journalsand they would respond to a
prompt that I had on the board.
And Teresa, every class woulddo that and be happy and joyful
(01:47):
and all of the attributes youthink of when you think of a
great kid in high school.
One Monday, my students came inand Teresa went over and sat by
the window and just lookedoutside.
Didn't take out her notebook,didn't grab a journal, just
stared out the window and shelooked just absent and gone.
As the other students werewriting, I kind of signaled to
her silently to ask, are youokay?
(02:08):
And she did not respondsilently.
She responded quietly.
Very loudly.
No, I am not okay.
And she shared in front ofeveryone that that weekend there
was a raid on her family'schurch and her aunt and uncle
were taken.
I had no idea this wassomething that was happening.
I didn't know about the raids.
I didn't know I had studentswith family members who were
(02:30):
undocumented.
And I didn't know that I hadstudents who were undocumented.
It's embarrassing to admit thisnow in 2025.
My students that day reallychallenged me.
They were all horrified,rightfully so.
And one student who was sort ofthe ringleader of the class
looked me in the eye, pointed atme and said, what are you going
to do about this, Canada?
(02:51):
I think about that day sooften.
It happened almost 20 years agonow.
And in all of my variousprofessional jobs of teaching
and being a college advisor,being a family engagement coach,
being a director of policy foran education nonprofit, I think
about that.
What am I doing about this?
What am I doing about thatMonday and that weekend?
(03:12):
So here I am on my littlepodcast thinking about that
still.
If you're listening to thisepisode and you have no
firsthand experience, truly,this episode is for you.
There are significant horrorshappening in our country right
now and in our state in NewHampshire, which Grace will talk
about.
So in closing of this opening,this episode is dedicated to
(03:37):
Teresa, to the student whopointed her finger at me, to all
of the students in that classwho called me out and called me
in as well.
Thank you.
so that they could use thatinformation to fill out their
(04:14):
student's FAFSA.
To the students who walked intomy office and asked, is it safe
to apply for DACA, DeferredAction for Childhood Arrivals?
To the students who messaged methe day after the November 2016
election and said, Canada, doyou think I should go back to
Mexico?
To the student whose fatherworked 80 to 100 hours a week so
(04:37):
that she could continue hercollege education, that they
would pay out of pocket to thestudent in my advisory who, a
few weeks before the end oftheir senior year, said to me in
front of everyone, you andeveryone at this school has lied
to the undocumented students.
You said that it would be okay,and it's not.
And she was right.
My students are now in their30s.
(05:00):
They are older than I was by alot when I started teaching.
But this episode is stilldedicated to them.
And I am still trying to figureout what am I going to do about
it?
And I turn it back to all ofus.
What are we going to do aboutthis?
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to New Hampshire HasIssues, the podcast that dares
(05:21):
to ask, who should we actuallybe scared of?
All right, Grace.
We should be scared.
Okay.
Grace Kindeke (05:29):
Wait, sorry.
Liz Canada (05:32):
She's like, I have a list of people.
Right.
Grace Kindeke (05:36):
Proud Boys, white supremacy,
Liz Canada (05:38):
transphobia.
That's right.
See other episodes, folks.
That's who you should be afraidof.
All right.
So, Grace, what is yourtagline?
Grace Kindeke (05:47):
My tagline is, how do immigrants make New
Hampshire and America great?
Liz Canada (05:53):
All right.
I am going to get some emailsabout this episode, and I am so
excited.
So I am your host, Liz Canada,and joining me today is the
American Friends ServiceCommittee New Hampshire Program
Coordinator, Grace Kindeke.
Grace, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
(06:14):
I'm so glad that you'rejoining.
Grace Kindeke (06:15):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really excited for thisconversation.
Liz Canada (06:18):
Thank you.
Thank you.
So...
We've got a big topic to cover.
Maybe folks have seen somestories about immigration, but
I'm hoping we might get intowhat's real and not real, some
of the myths, and maybe tobetter understand even what the
word immigration means.
It's a big term and it's thrownaround a lot.
(06:41):
We can dig into it a little bitmore.
Grace Kindeke (06:43):
Yeah, sounds good.
Liz Canada (06:45):
Grace.
Grace Kindeke (06:46):
Yes.
Liz Canada (06:47):
I like to start with a simple question.
Why are so many folks freakingout?
Yeah, it
Grace Kindeke (06:57):
seems simple, you know, but I think it's very
layered, right?
Immigrants, particularly blackand brown immigrants, white
folks, as we know them now,didn't always include the Irish,
you know, the Germans, youknow, there are a lot of folks
who immigrated to this countryand United States likes to know
itself as a nation ofimmigrants, although that's
(07:19):
pretty loaded as a colonialpower, right?
Because there were people thatwere living here, indigenous
Native Americans who were here.
here and remain here who reallywere fighting to survive that
invasion but you know over timeas the United States became a
country immigration was one ofthe forces that helped build up
so much of this country'sinfrastructure gives the country
(07:41):
a lot of its character butwe've seen in the history of
immigration that there's oftenbeen a lot of racial animus
ethnic animus towards certaingroups of people that did not
quite fit the mold or were noteasily accepted by, you know,
Americans who were here.
So we've seen there's been along history of freak outs over
(08:02):
immigration.
You know, one of our pieces ofimmigration history is that one
of the first immigrationpolicies was the Chinese
Exclusion Act.
So barring or making it verydifficult for Chinese immigrants
to come to this country or tohave certain rights while in
this country.
This freak out aroundimmigration has been going on a
long time and it really is tiedto a lot of racism, right?
(08:24):
Like we got to be honest thatoftentimes immigrants are a dog
whistle when we say that thereis an immigration invasion.
It's a dog whistle.
It's really focused on keepingout black and brown people who
is included in that, althoughthat list of unwanted people has
changed over the decades, overthe generations.
But unfortunately, it has oftenbeen used as a scapegoat.
(08:46):
Immigrants coming into ourcountry as a scapegoat to blame
the ills of our society, thereal difficulties and economic
insecurities and challenges thatAmericans are facing that are
the fault of the way our systemsare structured to preference
those who are already wealthyand have the means while taking
away over and over any types ofsupports or undermining any sort
(09:08):
of social welfareinfrastructure that we have
because we have this belief thatunderscores our policymaking
that, you know, you have to pullyourself up by your bootstraps,
which is actually impossible.
People don't even realize a lotof the time it's actually
impossible.
to do that physically as wellas metaphorically.
And so immigrants become thestand-in for all of the social
(09:32):
ills that people areexperiencing, all the economic
insecurities that people areexperiencing.
And it becomes an easyscapegoat for those who are in
power, those who have the wealthand the means to more easily
shape public policy than a lotof us who are just kind of
trying to get through ourregular lives.
And so the freakouts are long.
They're historical.
The person, the people on theend of those freakouts change as
(09:54):
but it's more often than not,it's an unfortunate scapegoat
because it doesn't actually bearwith what's the reality of what
immigrants contribute, what isactually going on in the country
and where the root causes ofour problems are actually
stemming from.
Liz Canada (10:08):
It's so much an us versus them framing that we hear
about.
Like we need to do somethingbecause they are going to, and
it's always framed up as folkswho are different than those of
us who were, born in the UnitedStates or those of us who are
white or whatever privilegedstatus.
(10:30):
the person who's speaking hasthis us and them mentality.
I have done the thing that Ihave said I would never do,
which is engage in social mediafights in the comments.
Grace Kindeke (10:41):
I'm right there with you.
You try to avoid them, but...
Liz Canada (10:43):
Some people say things and I'm there like, okay,
it is 11.23 p.m.
Should I respond to this?
Yes, yes, I should.
One of the things that I'venoticed as I've been, I don't
know, lurking in comments onsocial media, tragically, the
word immigrants is being used assort of a catch-all term.
And I think a lot of folks whohave maybe big feelings about
(11:05):
what they're being told onsocial media sites or, quote
unquote, the news, which I usevery generously.
So I think it might be helpful.
to better understand what thatword, immigrants, really means.
What are the differentimmigration statuses that folks
can have?
(11:26):
Because I feel like a lot ofpeople may not know this.
Grace Kindeke (11:29):
So I'll start off by saying that our immigration
system is very complicated.
So we can think of theimmigration system as having
different categories.
I have direct experiencebecause I'm an immigrant, so
I've gone through the systemmyself.
But really, every singleperson's case is unique, and
different people will fall intodifferent categories depending
on whether you were the one tochoose to come to the United
(11:49):
States, whether you did thatvoluntarily or involuntarily,
or, you know, you were broughtto the United States.
Oftentimes people don't realizethat the word migrants is
actually the umbrella term.
So migration, which we at AFCbelieves is a human right
because it's a natural humanactivity.
We all migrate, whether we, youknow, we might not call moving
(12:09):
to college or moving state tostate migrating, but that's
exactly what it is.
These different categories, Ithink a most familiar with
asylum seekers, with refugees,green card holders that are
people who have, you know, beenable to get through the process
to the point of receiving agreen card, visa holders.
So there's different ways youcan come into the country, you
(12:31):
can come in by going througheither a refugee resettlement
program, if you are experiencingviolence or conflict in your
home country, and you have toflee and you're able to getting
touch and getting contact withthose refugee services that are
overseas in different countriesall over Literally, we have
people who have walked to thesouthern border or to the
northern border in attempt tocross and seek asylum.
(13:13):
as compared to the refugeecategory, which starts usually
outside of the country.
You can come on a visa.
So in the situation, mypersonal situation, I came in on
a visa as a dependent ofanother visa holder because I
was a minor at the time.
Those visas can be temporary.
They can be a student visa.
It can be a tourist visa, butnot all visas have a pathway to
(13:37):
citizenship.
So in order to become acitizen, you have to be able to
get a green card and not everyvisa category allows for that
pathway.
to a green card but forinstance with a refugee or an
asylum seeker that is a pathwayto a green card but you still
have to go through that processfirst for a visa holder for
instance that work and thatprocessing started outside of
(13:59):
the country so my mom did allthe paperwork in Congo before
she came to the United Statesbut it could also start when
you're here like I said withthat asylum seeker so that's
just some of sort of the broadbrush categories immigrants are
people who migrate to a countryand then decide to stay right so
we have temporary workers whowho would be considered migrants
but not immigrants.
So we have people who areseasonal workers, people who
(14:21):
work up here in the Northeast onsome of the dairy farms,
including the dairy farms thatsupply the milk at our local
Hannaford's.
We have people, you know,people that I think most people
when they think of migrants canthink of a lot of our vegetable
and fruit pickers out inCalifornia and the Texas area.
So there are these temporarycategories that people can come
in with the express purpose ofworking and then returning.
(14:42):
And I think one category thatpeople don't always realize is
that Depending on how much moneyyou have, you can actually buy
certain types of visas.
You can buy a pathway to agreen card if you have a couple
million dollars that you can...
Just lying around.
Just lying around.
Just lying around.
(15:03):
Unfortunately, people then fallout of status.
So then you have situation orthey enter into the country.
Maybe they bypass ports ofentry for whatever reason and
(15:25):
they cross over and then theycross over without any
inspection.
So they don't have any statusto begin with.
Right.
broad brush types of categoriesthat people can come in on.
Liz Canada (15:50):
So Grace, something that people will say, this is
sort of similar to the housingepisode that I did.
Why don't we build more houses,right?
Like, isn't that the thing?
So my question to you is like,why don't people just become US
citizens?
Like, why don't they just gothrough the process, right?
Like, that's the question thatcomes up a lot.
Why don't people just become UScitizens?
Grace Kindeke (16:11):
Yeah, no, that's a great question.
And I certainly have heard itbefore.
You've heard it before?
Is this not the first timeyou've heard this question?
No, no, it's like, I've heard,you know, why don't people just
become US citizens?
Why don't people just get inline?
You know, and first, I'll startand say, I have lived in the
United States since 1989.
We are in the good year of ourmother lord 2025.
(16:34):
We are.
It's been a minute.
We have arrived
Liz Canada (16:36):
at
Grace Kindeke (16:37):
2025.
So that was 36 years that I'vebeen in the United States.
I'm a US Citizen Now, it tookme 34 years to become a US
citizen.
Liz Canada (16:48):
Say that number again, Grace.
Just repeat it for me so I canhear the number one more time.
Grace Kindeke (16:53):
Yes, absolutely.
34 years.
It took me 34 years to become aU.S.
citizen.
And so people don't oftenrealize because of the
complexity of our immigrationsystem.
And despite the complexity, wedon't have a lot of pathways to
citizenship.
(17:13):
So people have been working,advocating, rallying in the
streets.
Yeah.
So that status expired and thenthey were considered
(17:51):
undocumented.
So when I learned that I wasundocumented at 18 years old,
you know, right on the cusp ofgraduating high school.
Which many, many
Liz Canada (18:00):
young people learn.
Yeah.
At 17 or 18 years old, becausethat is when they are applying
to college and find out whenthey go to complete their FAFSA
or their college applicationthat they do not have social
security numbers.
So I need so many people tounderstand many things.
kids don't even know it yet andthey won't know
Grace Kindeke (18:17):
it yeah and they absolutely that's absolutely
true and it's because you knowfamilies do whatever they can to
protect their children and thenit just you literally get to
the end of the road right youget to the end of the road
whether it's you find out youdon't have a social security
number you find out that youdon't have any sort of visa or
documentation literally when wesay people without documents
(18:39):
we're talking you do not havethe right pieces of paper to
advance and move forward to thenext block you cannot go
forward.
What then ends up happening,right, is that you look for a
solution and there's very fewsolutions.
I will say that in my personalcase, I had I fell in love.
I got married and I was right.
(19:01):
And that's in that some peopleare able to take that pathway.
I was able to adjust my statusthrough my marriage.
You know, I happened to fall inlove and marry a U.S.
citizen.
If I hadn't, we would be havinga different story.
But the reality is, is that IfI hadn't gone through, if I had
not adjusted my status with myspouse, I would actually still
(19:22):
be in a situation where I wouldstill be on DACA, which is
Deferred Action for ChildhoodArrivals, which is a type of
temporary protected status.
It doesn't give you a legalstatus, but it does enable you
to have authorization to work.
It does deprioritize you on adeportation list, but it's not a
secure status.
It is simply one that kind ofjust keeps you going just enough
(19:44):
to survive.
And so it goes to show, likejust to use using the example of
my experience, that there arenot pathways for me, for
instance, if I had not adjustedstatus through marriage, I had
no other pathways.
Nothing else exists within thiscurrent system that we have
that would allow me toregularize my status.
(20:04):
And that is the case for many,many people.
So you have categories ofpeople who come in or you have
groups of people who come inunder different categories.
And it's like you do get intoline, right?
There is different pathways.
to enter into the UnitedStates.
You get into that line and it'slike you get into that line and
then you meet a cliff edge andthere is nowhere for you to go.
You can't go forward.
You can't go left.
(20:25):
You can't go right.
You could maybe try to gobackwards if you're one of the
lucky few who might be able toreturn to their home country if
the circumstances are safeenough, secure enough, and you
have the means, right?
Many people don't.
And so we simply do not havethe lines that people can get
into.
And the way that we createthose lines is through policy.
It is our Congress.
(20:45):
that decides immigration law.
And what we've seen, especiallyover the last several decades,
is what policy changes have beenmade is to increase detention
and deportation, right?
It's to increase enforcement,not to increase pathways for
people to actually adjust theirstatus, change their status,
regularize their status, becausemany people want to and they're
(21:07):
trying to.
And even for those who can,right, for the few who can, the
courts are so backed up.
Our courts are our immigrationcourts are overwhelmed we have
people who are waiting decadesyou know I
Liz Canada (21:20):
was literally decades
Grace Kindeke (21:22):
literal decades grace
Liz Canada (21:24):
is not an anomaly in this situation no
Grace Kindeke (21:27):
it's such an important emphasis to make that
it does take decades and thereare people that are still
waiting right they're stillwaiting for a hearing they're
still waiting for a response wehave people who have filed in
the 90s who are still waiting inthe 2000s who are still waiting
what we prioritize what we payfor is what we value Thank you.
Thank you.
(21:48):
Thank you.
nothing to USCIS which actuallyis the that arm of the agency
that does process a lot of theseimmigration cases right where
(22:10):
people are trying to regularizetheir status so we always seem
to have money for police forjails prisons detention centers
for agents but we never seem tohave enough money we have enough
money to build a detention campa concentration camp in Florida
in a matter of weeks but wedon't seem to have enough money
to pay officers to processpeople we don't seem to have
(22:34):
enough money or will to createpathways for people to
regularize and when we do havepolicy proposals that have been
brought whether that's the dreamact or a pathway to citizenship
through changing the registrydate we get those policies shut
down not only by republicanswill i say from democrats
themselves even our own federaldelegation sometimes not
(22:56):
supporting specific pieces oflegislation which would enable
broad swaths millions of peopleto actually be able to
regularize their status.
So it's not that the ideasaren't there.
It's not that the pathwayshaven't been created, but over
and over our government doesn'tinvest in them.
Liz Canada (23:12):
I really liked the sort of analogy or maybe just
the visual description that yougave because people do say like
they should get in line.
You can get in line and there'sno one to process you forward.
There's only money to detainand to move them into detention
centers.
And that is atrocious.
It is absolutely horrific thatthat is how we are prioritizing
(23:33):
our money, our time, our people.
Grace, thank you for pointingout that none of the money is
going towards helping folks dothe thing that people say that
they which is to move forwardand to, you know, quote unquote,
get in line.
Grace Kindeke (23:47):
Exactly.
I mean, and it goes to showwhen we invest in I could feel
my heart rate.
I could feel like
Liz Canada (23:53):
I'm going to check my watch and it's going to be
like you weren't working out forlike,
Grace Kindeke (23:57):
yes, I am very fired up about yes.
Yeah, no, it's absolutely true.
The quota that we're lookingat, at the at the federal level
of 3000 people a day, they'retrying to pick up that is an
overwhelming amount of personnelof institutions and facilities,
which I mean, don't even get mestarted.
I mean, we can we People cannotfind each other, right?
Liz Canada (24:35):
Exactly.
Grace Kindeke (24:40):
Yeah, exactly.
And we're just investing inthis and strengthening and
increasing and building out thishorrific, violent
infrastructure.
And
Liz Canada (24:50):
celebrating it and saying that this is what our
country or our state should bedoing.
And it is atrocious that thatis what is happening.
Grace Kindeke (24:57):
And some folks, you know, some listeners may not
know that we, New Hampshireactually does have several, a
couple of detention centers.
So we have the FCI Berlin,which is a federal prison, which
is right now holding about 300people in pretty deplorable
conditions, right?
We have advocates and communitymembers seeking a way to
(25:18):
increase the oversight,especially from our federal
delegation on this facilitybecause people are not being
able to access those basic careneeds that I just listed out.
They don't even have consistentaccess to a phone to talk to
their lawyer, to be able to havetheir loved ones reach them.
And they're in a very remotepart of the state, right?
We also have the StratfordCounty Jail, which thankfully we
(25:38):
have a wonderful volunteer runvisitation program that AFSC
co-runs so that there are peoplein the jail who are there to
support people who are beingdetained but we're seeing the
numbers there increase as wellover a hundred people being
detained and then we've alsoseen a new contract I live in
Hillsborough County and oursheriff just recently entered
into a contract with ICE to notonly perform immigration
(26:01):
enforcement but to also to usethe Valley Street Jail a pretty
notoriously horrible county jailthe Hillsborough County Jail
here in Manchester as adetention center and And that
places known documented abuseson only of civilians who are
being incarcerated there, butalso as a detention center when
it was used as one in the early2000s.
(26:21):
So in our own little state, wehave capacity to hold hundreds
of detainees of peoplekidnapped, not only off the
streets of New Hampshire, butalso elsewhere.
Liz Canada (26:30):
Right.
Being taken from surroundingstates.
That's happening here.
So, Grace, I invited you tothis podcast because New
Hampshire has issues and the topAnd I think I said this when I
reached out to you to say like,it's an issue that is actually,
as you know, not the issuethat's being put out there.
(26:52):
Like the issue is how we areactually treating human beings
in our state and what we areallowing to happen every day
here.
And it's hard to cut through.
I assume people don't know thisis happening here.
And I think folks need to.
Bottom line is to know thatit's happening first.
And then how do you feel aboutit?
How do you feel about peoplebeing detained in our state?
Grace Kindeke (27:15):
They don't offer interpreters.
So you have to learn English indetention, right?
You learn English from otherdetainees because the government
officials in the richestcountry in the world cannot seem
to supply to you a Frenchinterpreter, a French
interpreter.
Wow.
So you're stuck in a systemwhere no one is listening to
(27:36):
you.
No one understands you, wantsto understand you.
You're trying to figure outwhat is happening.
You thought you were coming toa country that overseas, you
United States has a reputationof this is the land of the free
milk and honey run from ourtaps.
You know, the streets are pavedwith gold.
Liz Canada (27:54):
Everything is
Grace Kindeke (27:54):
gold.
Everything is great.
You know, and my street is not
Liz Canada (28:00):
paved with gold and also needs to be repaved in
general.
Well, paving would be greatright now.
Grace Kindeke (28:08):
Right?
Because that's the realreality.
But people come here with suchhope in their heart, truly
believing that they're finallyarriving to safety.
And like you were saying, thefact that people are being taken
and you do not know where theyare.
People are being transferredfrom facility to facility
multiple times in a week.
(28:28):
Days go by and family membershave no idea where their loved
ones have gone.
And the fact that now part ofour deportation policy as a
country is not only do we justsend, we just get people out.
Now we're sending them toprison camps because that's what
those are.
They're sending them to prisoncamps in other countries, right?
Because we like to export as acountry, the United States likes
(28:51):
to export our immigrationpolicies to other countries.
We'd like to use it as anegotiating tactic to get other
countries to adopt the samehorrific policies that we have.
Otherwise, you know, we willbully them into compliance,
right?
or will threaten them.
Or we'll withhold aid or funds,you know, we'll do whatever we
(29:12):
need to in order to ensure thatwe can outsource this violence
and this horror.
So it's heartbreaking.
It's heartbreaking, but it'salso enraging because no human
being deserves to be treatedlike that.
No human being deserves to notknow to have their rights
completely usurped and to betaken and tossed around like a
(29:36):
bag of cheese.
Like that is not how we aremeant to be.
to treat one another.
Liz Canada (29:41):
All of these folks are people.
They are human beings.
And how do we think we shouldtreat human beings is the
question we should be askingourselves in our state, in our
country, period.
Can we talk about some of themisinformation that's out there?
Some of the myths, I guess.
(30:02):
There are a few.
The greatest hits ofmisinformation about
immigration.
Greatest used very loosely.
Yikes.
A lot of yikes.
So the first one is like, well,what about safety and crime?
Are there folks who are fromother countries who are
committing crimes at a higherrate?
Are they not?
What's the real information?
Grace Kindeke (30:24):
Yeah.
So the data has clearly shownfor many, many, many years that
immigrants overall commit crime.
at a much lower rate than theUS citizen population.
That data is comparative to thesize of the population that
we're talking about, right?
So the rate of crime is muchlower.
(30:44):
So that in and of itself is amyth.
This belief that immigrantscommit crimes at a higher rate
than US citizens is not true.
The other myth is that it isonly criminals that are being
taken.
by the current administration'sdeportation and detention
machine.
That is also not true becausewhere people are being picked
(31:07):
up, they're being picked up attheir schools, they're being
picked up while they're runningerrands, they're being picked up
while they're at home chilling,they're being picked up while
they're working, right?
We've had even here in NewHampshire a number of raids at
local businesses, restaurantshere in Concord and Milford.
So these things are happeningwhile people are doing what
they're supposed to do to takecare of themselves, to take care
(31:27):
of their families.
The other myth that leads offof that okay it's only criminals
is that well if you have anysort of criminal record and I
will say a couple of things tothis one is that we have greatly
expanded the category of who isconsidered a criminal so you
can have people who have had acharge small charge maybe a
(31:48):
small drug charge a smallshoplifting charge maybe they
got charged with it and you knowthey went through the whole
thing or they didn't they justgot arrested but the charges got
dropped with the recent past ofthe Lake and Riley Act, that
now means that immigrants areheld to a much higher standard
when it comes to having any sortof charge of criminal record
(32:08):
than most other categories ofpeople, including U.S.
citizens.
And so even if you have acharge as small as shoplifting
that maybe didn't get fullycharged, you got arrested, maybe
they were wrong, maybe theyjust reprimanded you and sent
you on your way, whatever thecase may be, essentially it's a
one strike against you.
Any sort of interaction withthe criminal legal system for
(32:29):
very low-level crimes isconsidered a huge red mark
against you, and it can be usedto justify any denial of relief
or your eventual detention anddeportation.
I think it's so important forus to see how even the
categories of what is consideredcriminal, who is considered
criminal, have expanded greatly.
(32:49):
We know that our criminal legalsystem is racially biased.
It has been because we see thedata, we see how it is skewed,
that we have more people ofcolor, more Black people
compared to how many of thosepeople are in the general
population.
So it's like the population ofjails and prisons is like 40%
Black men.
But Black people...
half-ish of them are black men,are 13% of the population,
(33:13):
right?
So we see that even in NewHampshire, we have racial
disparities in who is arrested,who is incarcerated.
So we know that whenever weexpand the categories of
criminalization of who isconsidered a criminal, that
creates a wider net that is usedagainst people of color more
often than it is against whitepeople.
Not to say that it doesn't alsohurt white people, because it
(33:35):
does, because these are not fairdesignation or ways of pulling
together who can stay and whocannot stay, right?
Who should be able toregularize, who should not be
able to regularize.
And so we have these categoriesof criminalization, who is
considered a criminal, what isconsidered a criminal act, and a
standard of being held thatimmigrants are held to that is
(33:58):
an unfair standard.
They're coming for theimmigrants now, and then later
they're going to come for us.
And not that
Liz Canada (34:04):
much later, everyone.
Right.
It's happening now.
In real time right now.
And the democratic institutionsare being chipped away right
before our eyes.
And what we keep getting is allof this blame on other
individuals instead of the folkswho are taking the power and
(34:24):
using it against all of us.
Maybe you see the target beingon immigrants, but it will be
wielded against immigrants.
Everyone else, that is whathappens historically.
We've seen it time and timeagain.
Even though I haven't been in asocial studies class since
junior year of high school, Iknow that this is the trend.
This is what happens.
(34:45):
All right, so safety and crime,Grace, you're saying we've been
misinformed.
I'm hearing from you a littlebit.
Grace Kindeke (34:50):
Unfortunately, yes, exactly.
Like there are real issues thatpeople are experiencing when it
comes to safety and security intheir communities.
So important to remember thatif we.
actually dealt with the rootcauses of why those things are
happening, right?
People hate the fact that theysee, you know, homeless people
(35:11):
on the street.
Just give people housing.
Then you don't have homelesspeople on the street.
Make housing affordable ratherthan criminalizing people for
either doing what they have tosurvive or doing things that
they have to in order as aresponse to their poverty or
their marginalization.
Liz Canada (35:30):
All of these issues, they are all connected with one
another.
Grace Kindeke (35:34):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Liz Canada (35:36):
Okay, well, what about, Grace?
All right, here's another one.
What about...
how folks who are immigrants,are they taking services away
from U.S.
citizens?
Have they gathered up all theservices and taken them for
themselves?
No.
That's what I hear.
That's
Grace Kindeke (35:54):
what I've seen on the social media.
Oh, God, it's so heartbreakingbecause two things, right?
One is most immigrants do notqualify or not eligible for
certain social services.
Certainly there arecircumstances if an immigrant
parent documents orundocumented, has a U.S.
citizen child.
If that child has a disability,they might be able to access
(36:16):
some services as the parent andguardian of that child in order
to ensure that that child haswhat they need, right?
Most immigrants are noteligible for any sort of social
service or welfare unless we'retalking like somewhat special
circumstances.
What we've also seen is asystematic defunding Of our
social services, of our socialsafety net, which, again, we
(36:40):
live in the richest country inthe world.
We do.
And yet we somehow cannot seemto manage to feed, clothe,
support, house, all of ourpeople.
And we absolutely have themeans to.
We spend billions of dollarsand we're spending billions
more.
(37:00):
And that billion isn't nothing.
It's not just not a pocket fullof pennies.
Right.
Those are all of our collectivetax dollars going to be used so
that wealthy, powerful, mostlymen can play war games and make
a profit.
We have this situation, thisidea of scarcity.
We don't have enough.
Right.
And what little we have isbeing eaten up by people we
(37:23):
don't want to be able to accessit, right?
So we then end up turning oneach other, right?
Like crabs in a barrel.
We turn on each other.
We're fighting over what littleresources there are We're
getting angry and frustratedbecause we can't access what
little resources there are.
But we don't stop for a secondand look up and go, who's
(37:44):
pulling the strings on this?
Where are the crumbs comingfrom?
Because last time I could tell,we had enough for a whole cake.
Why are we fighting overcrumbs?
I
Liz Canada (37:54):
want a piece of the cake.
It's the choice, the consciouschoice to not do that, which is
why we're here.
All right, so Grace, you'resaying that immigrants haven't
collected all the services forthemselves.
They haven't taken them allaway.
Okay, okay, okay.
What about colleges?
What about folks who aregetting into college?
Are they taking seats from U.S.
(38:16):
citizens?
Grace Kindeke (38:18):
God, no.
It breaks my heart that thismythology, and I know one of
our...
You know, one of the folks inthe...
Someone said a thing.
Someone said a thing somewhere.
It's impossible to know.
For me, it's enraging, right?
Because it's absolutely unfair.
It is wrong.
And it is incredibly dishonestto make that claim that
(38:40):
immigrants are coming in,they're stealing college seats
that would go to a U.S.
citizen.
I mean, first of all, everybodyhas to apply and get chosen.
Let
Liz Canada (38:52):
me explain
Grace Kindeke (38:52):
the
Liz Canada (38:53):
college application process.
You do have to actually applyto the school.
Step one.
Grace Kindeke (38:58):
There are minimum, exactly, there are
minimum qualifications you haveto meet everybody.
There is still a process.
There are still requirements toget into a school.
Exactly.
And you still have to meetthem, right, regardless of what
your status is.
I think it's also so importantfor us to interrogate the
underbelly of a comment likethat, right?
(39:18):
Because when you say, oh, youknow, when immigrants come,
they're taking seats away.
So what you're sayingsubconsciously or subliminally
is that immigrants are not assmart or as qualified as U.S.
And so therefore, U.S.
citizens are beingdiscriminated against.
But I will say that the realityis that there are different
(39:41):
standards that different peopleare held to.
And something that I grew uphearing, I think a lot of people
of color know are familiar withthis, is that you have to work
twice as hard, three times ashard, four times as hard to be
able to get to the same level asyour white counterpart or white
peer.
My own story when it comes tocollege is a good example of
(40:01):
that.
I was in the top 10% of myclass when I graduated high
school.
Hey.
Shout out to all the giftedchildren from the 90s and early
2000s.
There they
Liz Canada (40:10):
are.
We see you all.
We see you all out there.
Grace Kindeke (40:12):
How's the anxiety?
Is
Liz Canada (40:14):
it good?
It's high.
It's high, if I'm being
Grace Kindeke (40:16):
honest.
It's high.
We self-medicate using avariety of things.
The heart rate is up and down.
It's a whole thing.
Exactly.
I was in the top in my class.
I got into school and I was notable to continue.
It took me 20 years from theyear I graduated high school to
now to receive and earn mybachelor's degree.
(40:38):
First
Liz Canada (40:39):
of all,
Grace Kindeke (40:39):
congratulations by the by.
Let's
Liz Canada (40:42):
give you the kudos that you very much deserve.
Congratulations
Grace Kindeke (40:45):
on that.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I'm deeply grateful very proudof myself and just I'm so
grateful for all the supportthat I got because you need that
support, right?
You were a college advisor.
You know how hard college is.
And I was a young adult.
I was a working adult, right?
And it was still a verydifficult thing to navigate.
(41:05):
But again, going back to it,it's just so important to
recognize that there are basicrequirements that everybody has
to meet in order to get intoschool, to get into college, any
college.
And also, we need tointerrogate what is actually
meant by a statement like that,which is that I don't believe
this group for people are goodenough, smart enough, qualified
enough.
And then thirdly, again, wehave to interrogate this idea of
(41:28):
scarcity, that there is notenough.
For everyone, that there's notenough colleges so that everyone
who wants to go to college cango to college.
When we don't take intoconsideration, well, why can't
people access college?
I bet you it's not because Juanor Armando or, you know, Dream
or Favor or Romeo is taking yourcollege entrance, right?
(41:51):
It's because are there enoughfunds to support students to be
able to go to school?
Are there enough academicsupports to help students who
want to go to college?
know what to do?
Do we have the structures andthe infrastructure in place to
truly support studentsregardless of their status to be
able to meet their collegedreams?
Not why is one person gettingin and the other person isn't
(42:13):
getting in?
I mean, come on.
Grace, funny
Liz Canada (42:16):
story.
The budget that passed in NewHampshire actually cut funding
from higher education.
So it seems a little bit weirdthat we would be critical of who
is going to college and sayingthat our U.S.
citizens should get into thoseschools and then give those
(42:36):
schools less money.
Grace Kindeke (42:38):
Weird.
Right.
And now they have to increasetuitions.
And that is a pretty hugebarrier as to who can actually
go to college is can you affordit?
Can you
Liz Canada (42:47):
pay for college?
Just a deep sigh.
All right.
So immigrants are now takingthe seats from...
students at college.
Okay, so so far I'm over threeis what I'm hearing here.
Not a great record.
Tell me the positive ways thatimmigrants contribute to New
(43:08):
Hampshire, to our communities,to our to our lives
Grace Kindeke (43:12):
every day.
Absolutely.
I mean, immigrants contributein so many ways.
People often start with thecontributions to the workforce,
a big portion of our direct careworkers who care for our loved
ones with disabilities, ourloved ones who are aging, our
(43:32):
elders in nursing homes.
A lot of those folks arethemselves immigrants, right?
So we have huge swaths of ourworkforce, our caregiving
workforce that are As well asour service workers.
I mean, no single person is anisland.
This whole mythology ofindividualism that our country
(43:52):
purports and builds entiremonoliths on top of is wrong.
We are an interdependentspecies.
We always have been.
Nothing you are wearing,eating, sitting in on was built
by one person.
You didn't build it.
There are invisible hands allover.
our lives everywhere right fromthe like I said earlier in the
(44:14):
show from the milk you buy atHannaford that milk was milked
by immigrant hands, from theloved ones you have in a nursing
home, they're being cared forin the hands of immigrants.
But it goes beyond that too,right?
It's not just what immigrantscontribute monetarily, although
immigrants pay billions ofdollars in taxes, both
(44:35):
undocumented and
Liz Canada (44:36):
documented.
Just for the sake of thepodcast life, can you say that
one more time for the people inthe back of the podcast?
Grace Kindeke (44:47):
I would be happy to.
Immigrants both undocumentedand documented pay billions of
dollars in taxes.
Billions.
I paid taxes when I wasundocumented.
I filed that IRS tax reportevery year and I paid my share
of taxes as so many other peopledo.
It is absolutely financiallythat immigrants contribute.
(45:09):
They contribute to our socialfabric, our social networks, but
they also are our loved ones.
They are our family members.
So often I think people who arein this country you know have
maybe been here for generationswere born here forget their own
immigrant background themselvesright unless you are Native
American y'all came everybodycame from somewhere you know and
(45:31):
maybe one portion of yourfamily is Native American but
the other portion is fromIreland or Wales or Cameroon
Liz Canada (45:39):
okay on the nose there but yes I could just tell
I know it's the complexion it'sthe sunburn it's the Freckles.
Grace Kindeke (45:51):
Yeah, totally.
So it's just, you know, weforget our own immigration
stories, our own immigranthistories, our histories, our
communities are interwoven withone another.
So when you were talking aboutthat, like intersectional
overlapping, that can also beseen in our relationships,
right?
Immigrants are our loved ones.
They are our neighbors.
They're our colleagues.
They're our child's bestfriends.
(46:13):
They're our spouses.
They're our partners.
I mean, they are part of ourfamilies and communities.
And So behaving as ifimmigrants are the separate
other completely erases theinterwoven ways that we are in
relationship, either through ourown history and or through our
relationships with immigrantpeople.
(46:34):
And there are those realfinancial, monetary, social
fabric contributions, but it'salso just recognizing too,
there's the contributions inculture, in flavor, in
seasoning, you know, it, Itadds, it enhances how we are and
who we are.
And pretending otherwise justdoes us all a huge disservice.
Liz Canada (46:59):
I'm so glad you came on the podcast, Grace.
Thank you.
Thank you so, so much forputting up with the myths that
are out there and answeringthose questions and walking me
and a listener through what thereality is, what's actually
true, and giving the space forfolks to hear it and sit with it
(47:20):
and process it.
I have learned a lot in myjourney, and I am always
learning because that is my job.
We have to keep learning.
I will never understand what itis like for somebody who has
gone through the process ofbecoming a U.S.
citizen or is an undocumentedindividual or has a green card,
whatever the status is.
(47:41):
I will never understand it, butI can try to learn more to
educate myself to be better andto do better.
You know what we didn't talkabout, Grace?
Sanctuary cities.
I'm
Grace Kindeke (47:54):
I think absolutely, because the
anti-sanctuary cities laws thatwere passed just in this
session, as well as multiplecounties and municipalities
entering into 287G agreements.
I mean, we are seeing in realtime that deportation and
detention, mass deportationinfrastructure getting built
(48:14):
within our own cities andcounties.
And those are our publicdollars, y'all, and there are
better ways to use them.
So yeah, let's talk about itlater.
Liz Canada (48:21):
We are in the worst version of the multiverse right
now.
Thinking about
Grace Kindeke (48:25):
all this.
We are.
But you know what?
It's also such an incredibleopportunity for us to actually
exercise our power.
I mean, more so than in anyother moment are we seeing just
how impactful it can be whenpeople and communities rise up
together.
So this is our opportunity todo that together.
Liz Canada (48:42):
Exercising.
It's not just for CrossFit forme in the morning.
It's also taking action inother ways.
You don't just have to do wallballs.
You can also...
Squats and calls.
Squats and calls.
Yes.
Don't give my coaches any ideas,Grace.
They're like, all right, youwant a phone bang?
Let's see 150 squats.
Grace Kindeke (49:10):
And it can be really easy to other immigrants
as if it's like some secretcabal living on the outskirts of
our cities and towns.
I mean, apparently.
I don't get the newsletter, butI think it's a good one.
I get my own newsletter, as weall
Liz Canada (49:25):
know.
The agenda that we send outweekly.
Grace Kindeke (49:28):
Exactly.
Most important question, though, is what is
your favorite
Grace Kindeke (00:03):
musical?
Oh my God, that's a toughquestion.
So I am a huge musical theaternerd.
I did a lot of musical theater.
Me too, Grace.
Me too.
I feel like there's synergyhere.
So I have a bunch, but I willsay like what has my heart right
now is of course Wicked.
So I was a huge fan of theBroadway stage play.
And then when I learned aboutthe reboot, I mean, I damn near
(00:25):
lost my mind.
And it's incredible.
And I'm so excited for thesecond one.
I can't even tell you.
Did you go opening night to themovie?
No, I didn't actually.
I don't know what was going on,probably because it came out
when I was still in school.
So I've literally, life was ablur between classes and work.
But as soon as I could hit thetheater, I
Liz Canada (00:43):
got to see it.
We'll allow it.
We'll allow that this time.
But the second part, openingnight, Grace.
I know, there's no excuses now.
You're listening to NewHampshire Has Issues, and I am
your host, Liz Canada.
(01:04):
I'm talking to you from thefuture because I wanted to share
a story.
I taught in Denver, Colorado.
I didn't grow up in Colorado.
I grew up in New Jersey.
Yikes.
The majority of the students atthe high school where I worked
were Latino.
In my first semester ofteaching as a new teacher, the
youngest person on staff, I hada student who I will refer to as
(01:24):
Teresa.
Teresa was a great kid, perfectgrades, always willing to
participate, which in a highschool English classroom, like,
oh, what a dream to have astudent who wants to participate
regularly, raise her hand, readout loud, all of that.
The beginning of every class,my students would come in and
they would get their journalsand they would respond to a
prompt that I had on the board.
And Teresa, every class woulddo that and be happy and joyful
(01:47):
and all of the attributes youthink of when you think of a
great kid in high school.
One Monday, my students came inand Teresa went over and sat by
the window and just lookedoutside.
Didn't take out her notebook,didn't grab a journal, just
stared out the window and shelooked just absent and gone.
As the other students werewriting, I kind of signaled to
her silently to ask, are youokay?
(02:08):
And she did not respondsilently.
She responded quietly.
Very loudly.
No, I am not okay.
And she shared in front ofeveryone that that weekend there
was a raid on her family'schurch and her aunt and uncle
were taken.
I had no idea this wassomething that was happening.
I didn't know about the raids.
I didn't know I had studentswith family members who were
(02:30):
undocumented.
And I didn't know that I hadstudents who were undocumented.
It's embarrassing to admit thisnow in 2025.
My students that day reallychallenged me.
They were all horrified,rightfully so.
And one student who was sort ofthe ringleader of the class
looked me in the eye, pointed atme and said, what are you going
to do about this, Canada?
(02:51):
I think about that day sooften.
It happened almost 20 years agonow.
And in all of my variousprofessional jobs of teaching
and being a college advisor,being a family engagement coach,
being a director of policy foran education nonprofit, I think
about that.
What am I doing about this?
What am I doing about thatMonday and that weekend?
(03:12):
So here I am on my littlepodcast thinking about that
still.
If you're listening to thisepisode and you have no
firsthand experience, truly,this episode is for you.
There are significant horrorshappening in our country right
now and in our state in NewHampshire, which Grace will talk
about.
So in closing of this opening,this episode is dedicated to
(03:37):
Teresa, to the student whopointed her finger at me, to all
of the students in that classwho called me out and called me
in as well.
Thank you.
so that they could use thatinformation to fill out their
(04:14):
student's FAFSA.
To the students who walked intomy office and asked, is it safe
to apply for DACA, DeferredAction for Childhood Arrivals?
To the students who messaged methe day after the November 2016
election and said, Canada, doyou think I should go back to
Mexico?
To the student whose fatherworked 80 to 100 hours a week so
(04:37):
that she could continue hercollege education, that they
would pay out of pocket to thestudent in my advisory who, a
few weeks before the end oftheir senior year, said to me in
front of everyone, you andeveryone at this school has lied
to the undocumented students.
You said that it would be okay,and it's not.
And she was right.
My students are now in their30s.
(05:00):
They are older than I was by alot when I started teaching.
But this episode is stilldedicated to them.
And I am still trying to figureout what am I going to do about
it?
And I turn it back to all ofus.
What are we going to do aboutthis?
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to New Hampshire HasIssues, the podcast that dares
(05:21):
to ask, who should we actuallybe scared of?
All right, Grace.
We should be scared.
Okay.
Grace Kindeke (05:29):
Wait, sorry.
Liz Canada (05:32):
She's like, I have a list of people.
Right.
Grace Kindeke (05:36):
Proud Boys, white supremacy,
Liz Canada (05:38):
transphobia.
That's right.
See other episodes, folks.
That's who you should be afraidof.
All right.
So, Grace, what is yourtagline?
Grace Kindeke (05:47):
My tagline is, how do immigrants make New
Hampshire and America great?
Liz Canada (05:53):
All right.
I am going to get some emailsabout this episode, and I am so
excited.
So I am your host, Liz Canada,and joining me today is the
American Friends ServiceCommittee New Hampshire Program
Coordinator, Grace Kindeke.
Grace, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
(06:14):
I'm so glad that you'rejoining.
Grace Kindeke (06:15):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really excited for thisconversation.
Liz Canada (06:18):
Thank you.
Thank you.
So...
We've got a big topic to cover.
Maybe folks have seen somestories about immigration, but
I'm hoping we might get intowhat's real and not real, some
of the myths, and maybe tobetter understand even what the
word immigration means.
It's a big term and it's thrownaround a lot.
(06:41):
We can dig into it a little bitmore.
Grace Kindeke (06:43):
Yeah, sounds good.
Liz Canada (06:45):
Grace.
Grace Kindeke (06:46):
Yes.
Liz Canada (06:47):
I like to start with a simple question.
Why are so many folks freakingout?
Yeah, it
Grace Kindeke (06:57):
seems simple, you know, but I think it's very
layered, right?
Immigrants, particularly blackand brown immigrants, white
folks, as we know them now,didn't always include the Irish,
you know, the Germans, youknow, there are a lot of folks
who immigrated to this countryand United States likes to know
itself as a nation ofimmigrants, although that's
(07:19):
pretty loaded as a colonialpower, right?
Because there were people thatwere living here, indigenous
Native Americans who were here.
here and remain here who reallywere fighting to survive that
invasion but you know over timeas the United States became a
country immigration was one ofthe forces that helped build up
so much of this country'sinfrastructure gives the country
(07:41):
a lot of its character butwe've seen in the history of
immigration that there's oftenbeen a lot of racial animus
ethnic animus towards certaingroups of people that did not
quite fit the mold or were noteasily accepted by, you know,
Americans who were here.
So we've seen there's been along history of freak outs over
(08:02):
immigration.
You know, one of our pieces ofimmigration history is that one
of the first immigrationpolicies was the Chinese
Exclusion Act.
So barring or making it verydifficult for Chinese immigrants
to come to this country or tohave certain rights while in
this country.
This freak out aroundimmigration has been going on a
long time and it really is tiedto a lot of racism, right?
(08:24):
Like we got to be honest thatoftentimes immigrants are a dog
whistle when we say that thereis an immigration invasion.
It's a dog whistle.
It's really focused on keepingout black and brown people who
is included in that, althoughthat list of unwanted people has
changed over the decades, overthe generations.
But unfortunately, it has oftenbeen used as a scapegoat.
(08:46):
Immigrants coming into ourcountry as a scapegoat to blame
the ills of our society, thereal difficulties and economic
insecurities and challenges thatAmericans are facing that are
the fault of the way our systemsare structured to preference
those who are already wealthyand have the means while taking
away over and over any types ofsupports or undermining any sort
(09:08):
of social welfareinfrastructure that we have
because we have this belief thatunderscores our policymaking
that, you know, you have to pullyourself up by your bootstraps,
which is actually impossible.
People don't even realize a lotof the time it's actually
impossible.
to do that physically as wellas metaphorically.
And so immigrants become thestand-in for all of the social
(09:32):
ills that people areexperiencing, all the economic
insecurities that people areexperiencing.
And it becomes an easyscapegoat for those who are in
power, those who have the wealthand the means to more easily
shape public policy than a lotof us who are just kind of
trying to get through ourregular lives.
And so the freakouts are long.
They're historical.
The person, the people on theend of those freakouts change as
(09:54):
but it's more often than not,it's an unfortunate scapegoat
because it doesn't actually bearwith what's the reality of what
immigrants contribute, what isactually going on in the country
and where the root causes ofour problems are actually
stemming from.
Liz Canada (10:08):
It's so much an us versus them framing that we hear
about.
Like we need to do somethingbecause they are going to, and
it's always framed up as folkswho are different than those of
us who were, born in the UnitedStates or those of us who are
white or whatever privilegedstatus.
(10:30):
the person who's speaking hasthis us and them mentality.
I have done the thing that Ihave said I would never do,
which is engage in social mediafights in the comments.
Grace Kindeke (10:41):
I'm right there with you.
You try to avoid them, but...
Liz Canada (10:43):
Some people say things and I'm there like, okay,
it is 11.23 p.m.
Should I respond to this?
Yes, yes, I should.
One of the things that I'venoticed as I've been, I don't
know, lurking in comments onsocial media, tragically, the
word immigrants is being used assort of a catch-all term.
And I think a lot of folks whohave maybe big feelings about
(11:05):
what they're being told onsocial media sites or, quote
unquote, the news, which I usevery generously.
So I think it might be helpful.
to better understand what thatword, immigrants, really means.
What are the differentimmigration statuses that folks
can have?
(11:26):
Because I feel like a lot ofpeople may not know this.
Grace Kindeke (11:29):
So I'll start off by saying that our immigration
system is very complicated.
So we can think of theimmigration system as having
different categories.
I have direct experiencebecause I'm an immigrant, so
I've gone through the systemmyself.
But really, every singleperson's case is unique, and
different people will fall intodifferent categories depending
on whether you were the one tochoose to come to the United
(11:49):
States, whether you did thatvoluntarily or involuntarily,
or, you know, you were broughtto the United States.
Oftentimes people don't realizethat the word migrants is
actually the umbrella term.
So migration, which we at AFCbelieves is a human right
because it's a natural humanactivity.
We all migrate, whether we, youknow, we might not call moving
(12:09):
to college or moving state tostate migrating, but that's
exactly what it is.
These different categories, Ithink a most familiar with
asylum seekers, with refugees,green card holders that are
people who have, you know, beenable to get through the process
to the point of receiving agreen card, visa holders.
So there's different ways youcan come into the country, you
(12:31):
can come in by going througheither a refugee resettlement
program, if you are experiencingviolence or conflict in your
home country, and you have toflee and you're able to getting
touch and getting contact withthose refugee services that are
overseas in different countriesall over Literally, we have
people who have walked to thesouthern border or to the
northern border in attempt tocross and seek asylum.
(13:13):
as compared to the refugeecategory, which starts usually
outside of the country.
You can come on a visa.
So in the situation, mypersonal situation, I came in on
a visa as a dependent ofanother visa holder because I
was a minor at the time.
Those visas can be temporary.
They can be a student visa.
It can be a tourist visa, butnot all visas have a pathway to
(13:37):
citizenship.
So in order to become acitizen, you have to be able to
get a green card and not everyvisa category allows for that
pathway.
to a green card but forinstance with a refugee or an
asylum seeker that is a pathwayto a green card but you still
have to go through that processfirst for a visa holder for
instance that work and thatprocessing started outside of
(13:59):
the country so my mom did allthe paperwork in Congo before
she came to the United Statesbut it could also start when
you're here like I said withthat asylum seeker so that's
just some of sort of the broadbrush categories immigrants are
people who migrate to a countryand then decide to stay right so
we have temporary workers whowho would be considered migrants
but not immigrants.
So we have people who areseasonal workers, people who
(14:21):
work up here in the Northeast onsome of the dairy farms,
including the dairy farms thatsupply the milk at our local
Hannaford's.
We have people, you know,people that I think most people
when they think of migrants canthink of a lot of our vegetable
and fruit pickers out inCalifornia and the Texas area.
So there are these temporarycategories that people can come
in with the express purpose ofworking and then returning.
(14:42):
And I think one category thatpeople don't always realize is
that Depending on how much moneyyou have, you can actually buy
certain types of visas.
You can buy a pathway to agreen card if you have a couple
million dollars that you can...
Just lying around.
Just lying around.
Just lying around.
(15:03):
Unfortunately, people then fallout of status.
So then you have situation orthey enter into the country.
Maybe they bypass ports ofentry for whatever reason and
(15:25):
they cross over and then theycross over without any
inspection.
So they don't have any statusto begin with.
Right.
broad brush types of categoriesthat people can come in on.
Liz Canada (15:50):
So Grace, something that people will say, this is
sort of similar to the housingepisode that I did.
Why don't we build more houses,right?
Like, isn't that the thing?
So my question to you is like,why don't people just become US
citizens?
Like, why don't they just gothrough the process, right?
Like, that's the question thatcomes up a lot.
Why don't people just become UScitizens?
Grace Kindeke (16:11):
Yeah, no, that's a great question.
And I certainly have heard itbefore.
You've heard it before?
Is this not the first timeyou've heard this question?
No, no, it's like, I've heard,you know, why don't people just
become US citizens?
Why don't people just get inline?
You know, and first, I'll startand say, I have lived in the
United States since 1989.
We are in the good year of ourmother lord 2025.
(16:34):
We are.
It's been a minute.
We have arrived
Liz Canada (16:36):
at
Grace Kindeke (16:37):
2025.
So that was 36 years that I'vebeen in the United States.
I'm a US Citizen Now, it tookme 34 years to become a US
citizen.
Liz Canada (16:48):
Say that number again, Grace.
Just repeat it for me so I canhear the number one more time.
Grace Kindeke (16:53):
Yes, absolutely.
34 years.
It took me 34 years to become aU.S.
citizen.
And so people don't oftenrealize because of the
complexity of our immigrationsystem.
And despite the complexity, wedon't have a lot of pathways to
citizenship.
(17:13):
So people have been working,advocating, rallying in the
streets.
Yeah.
So that status expired and thenthey were considered
(17:51):
undocumented.
So when I learned that I wasundocumented at 18 years old,
you know, right on the cusp ofgraduating high school.
Which many, many
Liz Canada (18:00):
young people learn.
Yeah.
At 17 or 18 years old, becausethat is when they are applying
to college and find out whenthey go to complete their FAFSA
or their college applicationthat they do not have social
security numbers.
So I need so many people tounderstand many things.
kids don't even know it yet andthey won't know
Grace Kindeke (18:17):
it yeah and they absolutely that's absolutely
true and it's because you knowfamilies do whatever they can to
protect their children and thenit just you literally get to
the end of the road right youget to the end of the road
whether it's you find out youdon't have a social security
number you find out that youdon't have any sort of visa or
documentation literally when wesay people without documents
(18:39):
we're talking you do not havethe right pieces of paper to
advance and move forward to thenext block you cannot go
forward.
What then ends up happening,right, is that you look for a
solution and there's very fewsolutions.
I will say that in my personalcase, I had I fell in love.
I got married and I was right.
(19:01):
And that's in that some peopleare able to take that pathway.
I was able to adjust my statusthrough my marriage.
You know, I happened to fall inlove and marry a U.S.
citizen.
If I hadn't, we would be havinga different story.
But the reality is, is that IfI hadn't gone through, if I had
not adjusted my status with myspouse, I would actually still
(19:22):
be in a situation where I wouldstill be on DACA, which is
Deferred Action for ChildhoodArrivals, which is a type of
temporary protected status.
It doesn't give you a legalstatus, but it does enable you
to have authorization to work.
It does deprioritize you on adeportation list, but it's not a
secure status.
It is simply one that kind ofjust keeps you going just enough
(19:44):
to survive.
And so it goes to show, likejust to use using the example of
my experience, that there arenot pathways for me, for
instance, if I had not adjustedstatus through marriage, I had
no other pathways.
Nothing else exists within thiscurrent system that we have
that would allow me toregularize my status.
(20:04):
And that is the case for many,many people.
So you have categories ofpeople who come in or you have
groups of people who come inunder different categories.
And it's like you do get intoline, right?
There is different pathways.
to enter into the UnitedStates.
You get into that line and it'slike you get into that line and
then you meet a cliff edge andthere is nowhere for you to go.
You can't go forward.
You can't go left.
(20:25):
You can't go right.
You could maybe try to gobackwards if you're one of the
lucky few who might be able toreturn to their home country if
the circumstances are safeenough, secure enough, and you
have the means, right?
Many people don't.
And so we simply do not havethe lines that people can get
into.
And the way that we createthose lines is through policy.
It is our Congress.
(20:45):
that decides immigration law.
And what we've seen, especiallyover the last several decades,
is what policy changes have beenmade is to increase detention
and deportation, right?
It's to increase enforcement,not to increase pathways for
people to actually adjust theirstatus, change their status,
regularize their status, becausemany people want to and they're
(21:07):
trying to.
And even for those who can,right, for the few who can, the
courts are so backed up.
Our courts are our immigrationcourts are overwhelmed we have
people who are waiting decadesyou know I
Liz Canada (21:20):
was literally decades
Grace Kindeke (21:22):
literal decades grace
Liz Canada (21:24):
is not an anomaly in this situation no
Grace Kindeke (21:27):
it's such an important emphasis to make that
it does take decades and thereare people that are still
waiting right they're stillwaiting for a hearing they're
still waiting for a response wehave people who have filed in
the 90s who are still waiting inthe 2000s who are still waiting
what we prioritize what we payfor is what we value Thank you.
Thank you.
(21:48):
Thank you.
nothing to USCIS which actuallyis the that arm of the agency
that does process a lot of theseimmigration cases right where
(22:10):
people are trying to regularizetheir status so we always seem
to have money for police forjails prisons detention centers
for agents but we never seem tohave enough money we have enough
money to build a detention campa concentration camp in Florida
in a matter of weeks but wedon't seem to have enough money
to pay officers to processpeople we don't seem to have
(22:34):
enough money or will to createpathways for people to
regularize and when we do havepolicy proposals that have been
brought whether that's the dreamact or a pathway to citizenship
through changing the registrydate we get those policies shut
down not only by republicanswill i say from democrats
themselves even our own federaldelegation sometimes not
(22:56):
supporting specific pieces oflegislation which would enable
broad swaths millions of peopleto actually be able to
regularize their status.
So it's not that the ideasaren't there.
It's not that the pathwayshaven't been created, but over
and over our government doesn'tinvest in them.
Liz Canada (23:12):
I really liked the sort of analogy or maybe just
the visual description that yougave because people do say like
they should get in line.
You can get in line and there'sno one to process you forward.
There's only money to detainand to move them into detention
centers.
And that is atrocious.
It is absolutely horrific thatthat is how we are prioritizing
(23:33):
our money, our time, our people.
Grace, thank you for pointingout that none of the money is
going towards helping folks dothe thing that people say that
they which is to move forwardand to, you know, quote unquote,
get in line.
Grace Kindeke (23:47):
Exactly.
I mean, and it goes to showwhen we invest in I could feel
my heart rate.
I could feel like
Liz Canada (23:53):
I'm going to check my watch and it's going to be
like you weren't working out forlike,
Grace Kindeke (23:57):
yes, I am very fired up about yes.
Yeah, no, it's absolutely true.
The quota that we're lookingat, at the at the federal level
of 3000 people a day, they'retrying to pick up that is an
overwhelming amount of personnelof institutions and facilities,
which I mean, don't even get mestarted.
I mean, we can we People cannotfind each other, right?
Liz Canada (24:35):
Exactly.
Grace Kindeke (24:40):
Yeah, exactly.
And we're just investing inthis and strengthening and
increasing and building out thishorrific, violent
infrastructure.
And
Liz Canada (24:50):
celebrating it and saying that this is what our
country or our state should bedoing.
And it is atrocious that thatis what is happening.
Grace Kindeke (24:57):
And some folks, you know, some listeners may not
know that we, New Hampshireactually does have several, a
couple of detention centers.
So we have the FCI Berlin,which is a federal prison, which
is right now holding about 300people in pretty deplorable
conditions, right?
We have advocates and communitymembers seeking a way to
(25:18):
increase the oversight,especially from our federal
delegation on this facilitybecause people are not being
able to access those basic careneeds that I just listed out.
They don't even have consistentaccess to a phone to talk to
their lawyer, to be able to havetheir loved ones reach them.
And they're in a very remotepart of the state, right?
We also have the StratfordCounty Jail, which thankfully we
(25:38):
have a wonderful volunteer runvisitation program that AFSC
co-runs so that there are peoplein the jail who are there to
support people who are beingdetained but we're seeing the
numbers there increase as wellover a hundred people being
detained and then we've alsoseen a new contract I live in
Hillsborough County and oursheriff just recently entered
into a contract with ICE to notonly perform immigration
(26:01):
enforcement but to also to usethe Valley Street Jail a pretty
notoriously horrible county jailthe Hillsborough County Jail
here in Manchester as adetention center and And that
places known documented abuseson only of civilians who are
being incarcerated there, butalso as a detention center when
it was used as one in the early2000s.
(26:21):
So in our own little state, wehave capacity to hold hundreds
of detainees of peoplekidnapped, not only off the
streets of New Hampshire, butalso elsewhere.
Liz Canada (26:30):
Right.
Being taken from surroundingstates.
That's happening here.
So, Grace, I invited you tothis podcast because New
Hampshire has issues and the topAnd I think I said this when I
reached out to you to say like,it's an issue that is actually,
as you know, not the issuethat's being put out there.
(26:52):
Like the issue is how we areactually treating human beings
in our state and what we areallowing to happen every day
here.
And it's hard to cut through.
I assume people don't know thisis happening here.
And I think folks need to.
Bottom line is to know thatit's happening first.
And then how do you feel aboutit?
How do you feel about peoplebeing detained in our state?
Grace Kindeke (27:15):
They don't offer interpreters.
So you have to learn English indetention, right?
You learn English from otherdetainees because the government
officials in the richestcountry in the world cannot seem
to supply to you a Frenchinterpreter, a French
interpreter.
Wow.
So you're stuck in a systemwhere no one is listening to
(27:36):
you.
No one understands you, wantsto understand you.
You're trying to figure outwhat is happening.
You thought you were coming toa country that overseas, you
United States has a reputationof this is the land of the free
milk and honey run from ourtaps.
You know, the streets are pavedwith gold.
Liz Canada (27:54):
Everything is
Grace Kindeke (27:54):
gold.
Everything is great.
You know, and my street is not
Liz Canada (28:00):
paved with gold and also needs to be repaved in
general.
Well, paving would be greatright now.
Grace Kindeke (28:08):
Right?
Because that's the realreality.
But people come here with suchhope in their heart, truly
believing that they're finallyarriving to safety.
And like you were saying, thefact that people are being taken
and you do not know where theyare.
People are being transferredfrom facility to facility
multiple times in a week.
(28:28):
Days go by and family membershave no idea where their loved
ones have gone.
And the fact that now part ofour deportation policy as a
country is not only do we justsend, we just get people out.
Now we're sending them toprison camps because that's what
those are.
They're sending them to prisoncamps in other countries, right?
Because we like to export as acountry, the United States likes
(28:51):
to export our immigrationpolicies to other countries.
We'd like to use it as anegotiating tactic to get other
countries to adopt the samehorrific policies that we have.
Otherwise, you know, we willbully them into compliance,
right?
or will threaten them.
Or we'll withhold aid or funds,you know, we'll do whatever we
(29:12):
need to in order to ensure thatwe can outsource this violence
and this horror.
So it's heartbreaking.
It's heartbreaking, but it'salso enraging because no human
being deserves to be treatedlike that.
No human being deserves to notknow to have their rights
completely usurped and to betaken and tossed around like a
(29:36):
bag of cheese.
Like that is not how we aremeant to be.
to treat one another.
Liz Canada (29:41):
All of these folks are people.
They are human beings.
And how do we think we shouldtreat human beings is the
question we should be askingourselves in our state, in our
country, period.
Can we talk about some of themisinformation that's out there?
Some of the myths, I guess.
(30:02):
There are a few.
The greatest hits ofmisinformation about
immigration.
Greatest used very loosely.
Yikes.
A lot of yikes.
So the first one is like, well,what about safety and crime?
Are there folks who are fromother countries who are
committing crimes at a higherrate?
Are they not?
What's the real information?
Grace Kindeke (30:24):
Yeah.
So the data has clearly shownfor many, many, many years that
immigrants overall commit crime.
at a much lower rate than theUS citizen population.
That data is comparative to thesize of the population that
we're talking about, right?
So the rate of crime is muchlower.
(30:44):
So that in and of itself is amyth.
This belief that immigrantscommit crimes at a higher rate
than US citizens is not true.
The other myth is that it isonly criminals that are being
taken.
by the current administration'sdeportation and detention
machine.
That is also not true becausewhere people are being picked
(31:07):
up, they're being picked up attheir schools, they're being
picked up while they're runningerrands, they're being picked up
while they're at home chilling,they're being picked up while
they're working, right?
We've had even here in NewHampshire a number of raids at
local businesses, restaurantshere in Concord and Milford.
So these things are happeningwhile people are doing what
they're supposed to do to takecare of themselves, to take care
(31:27):
of their families.
The other myth that leads offof that okay it's only criminals
is that well if you have anysort of criminal record and I
will say a couple of things tothis one is that we have greatly
expanded the category of who isconsidered a criminal so you
can have people who have had acharge small charge maybe a
(31:48):
small drug charge a smallshoplifting charge maybe they
got charged with it and you knowthey went through the whole
thing or they didn't they justgot arrested but the charges got
dropped with the recent past ofthe Lake and Riley Act, that
now means that immigrants areheld to a much higher standard
when it comes to having any sortof charge of criminal record
(32:08):
than most other categories ofpeople, including U.S.
citizens.
And so even if you have acharge as small as shoplifting
that maybe didn't get fullycharged, you got arrested, maybe
they were wrong, maybe theyjust reprimanded you and sent
you on your way, whatever thecase may be, essentially it's a
one strike against you.
Any sort of interaction withthe criminal legal system for
(32:29):
very low-level crimes isconsidered a huge red mark
against you, and it can be usedto justify any denial of relief
or your eventual detention anddeportation.
I think it's so important forus to see how even the
categories of what is consideredcriminal, who is considered
criminal, have expanded greatly.
(32:49):
We know that our criminal legalsystem is racially biased.
It has been because we see thedata, we see how it is skewed,
that we have more people ofcolor, more Black people
compared to how many of thosepeople are in the general
population.
So it's like the population ofjails and prisons is like 40%
Black men.
But Black people...
half-ish of them are black men,are 13% of the population,
(33:13):
right?
So we see that even in NewHampshire, we have racial
disparities in who is arrested,who is incarcerated.
So we know that whenever weexpand the categories of
criminalization of who isconsidered a criminal, that
creates a wider net that is usedagainst people of color more
often than it is against whitepeople.
Not to say that it doesn't alsohurt white people, because it
(33:35):
does, because these are not fairdesignation or ways of pulling
together who can stay and whocannot stay, right?
Who should be able toregularize, who should not be
able to regularize.
And so we have these categoriesof criminalization, who is
considered a criminal, what isconsidered a criminal act, and a
standard of being held thatimmigrants are held to that is
(33:58):
an unfair standard.
They're coming for theimmigrants now, and then later
they're going to come for us.
And not that
Liz Canada (34:04):
much later, everyone.
Right.
It's happening now.
In real time right now.
And the democratic institutionsare being chipped away right
before our eyes.
And what we keep getting is allof this blame on other
individuals instead of the folkswho are taking the power and
(34:24):
using it against all of us.
Maybe you see the target beingon immigrants, but it will be
wielded against immigrants.
Everyone else, that is whathappens historically.
We've seen it time and timeagain.
Even though I haven't been in asocial studies class since
junior year of high school, Iknow that this is the trend.
This is what happens.
(34:45):
All right, so safety and crime,Grace, you're saying we've been
misinformed.
I'm hearing from you a littlebit.
Grace Kindeke (34:50):
Unfortunately, yes, exactly.
Like there are real issues thatpeople are experiencing when it
comes to safety and security intheir communities.
So important to remember thatif we.
actually dealt with the rootcauses of why those things are
happening, right?
People hate the fact that theysee, you know, homeless people
(35:11):
on the street.
Just give people housing.
Then you don't have homelesspeople on the street.
Make housing affordable ratherthan criminalizing people for
either doing what they have tosurvive or doing things that
they have to in order as aresponse to their poverty or
their marginalization.
Liz Canada (35:30):
All of these issues, they are all connected with one
another.
Grace Kindeke (35:34):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Liz Canada (35:36):
Okay, well, what about, Grace?
All right, here's another one.
What about...
how folks who are immigrants,are they taking services away
from U.S.
citizens?
Have they gathered up all theservices and taken them for
themselves?
No.
That's what I hear.
That's
Grace Kindeke (35:54):
what I've seen on the social media.
Oh, God, it's so heartbreakingbecause two things, right?
One is most immigrants do notqualify or not eligible for
certain social services.
Certainly there arecircumstances if an immigrant
parent documents orundocumented, has a U.S.
citizen child.
If that child has a disability,they might be able to access
(36:16):
some services as the parent andguardian of that child in order
to ensure that that child haswhat they need, right?
Most immigrants are noteligible for any sort of social
service or welfare unless we'retalking like somewhat special
circumstances.
What we've also seen is asystematic defunding Of our
social services, of our socialsafety net, which, again, we
(36:40):
live in the richest country inthe world.
We do.
And yet we somehow cannot seemto manage to feed, clothe,
support, house, all of ourpeople.
And we absolutely have themeans to.
We spend billions of dollarsand we're spending billions
more.
(37:00):
And that billion isn't nothing.
It's not just not a pocket fullof pennies.
Right.
Those are all of our collectivetax dollars going to be used so
that wealthy, powerful, mostlymen can play war games and make
a profit.
We have this situation, thisidea of scarcity.
We don't have enough.
Right.
And what little we have isbeing eaten up by people we
(37:23):
don't want to be able to accessit, right?
So we then end up turning oneach other, right?
Like crabs in a barrel.
We turn on each other.
We're fighting over what littleresources there are We're
getting angry and frustratedbecause we can't access what
little resources there are.
But we don't stop for a secondand look up and go, who's
(37:44):
pulling the strings on this?
Where are the crumbs comingfrom?
Because last time I could tell,we had enough for a whole cake.
Why are we fighting overcrumbs?
I
Liz Canada (37:54):
want a piece of the cake.
It's the choice, the consciouschoice to not do that, which is
why we're here.
All right, so Grace, you'resaying that immigrants haven't
collected all the services forthemselves.
They haven't taken them allaway.
Okay, okay, okay.
What about colleges?
What about folks who aregetting into college?
Are they taking seats from U.S.
(38:16):
citizens?
Grace Kindeke (38:18):
God, no.
It breaks my heart that thismythology, and I know one of
our...
You know, one of the folks inthe...
Someone said a thing.
Someone said a thing somewhere.
It's impossible to know.
For me, it's enraging, right?
Because it's absolutely unfair.
It is wrong.
And it is incredibly dishonestto make that claim that
(38:40):
immigrants are coming in,they're stealing college seats
that would go to a U.S.
citizen.
I mean, first of all, everybodyhas to apply and get chosen.
Let
Liz Canada (38:52):
me explain
Grace Kindeke (38:52):
the
Liz Canada (38:53):
college application process.
You do have to actually applyto the school.
Step one.
Grace Kindeke (38:58):
There are minimum, exactly, there are
minimum qualifications you haveto meet everybody.
There is still a process.
There are still requirements toget into a school.
Exactly.
And you still have to meetthem, right, regardless of what
your status is.
I think it's also so importantfor us to interrogate the
underbelly of a comment likethat, right?
(39:18):
Because when you say, oh, youknow, when immigrants come,
they're taking seats away.
So what you're sayingsubconsciously or subliminally
is that immigrants are not assmart or as qualified as U.S.
And so therefore, U.S.
citizens are beingdiscriminated against.
But I will say that the realityis that there are different
(39:41):
standards that different peopleare held to.
And something that I grew uphearing, I think a lot of people
of color know are familiar withthis, is that you have to work
twice as hard, three times ashard, four times as hard to be
able to get to the same level asyour white counterpart or white
peer.
My own story when it comes tocollege is a good example of
(40:01):
that.
I was in the top 10% of myclass when I graduated high
school.
Hey.
Shout out to all the giftedchildren from the 90s and early
2000s.
There they
Liz Canada (40:10):
are.
We see you all.
We see you all out there.
Grace Kindeke (40:12):
How's the anxiety?
Is
Liz Canada (40:14):
it good?
It's high.
It's high, if I'm being
Grace Kindeke (40:16):
honest.
It's high.
We self-medicate using avariety of things.
The heart rate is up and down.
It's a whole thing.
Exactly.
I was in the top in my class.
I got into school and I was notable to continue.
It took me 20 years from theyear I graduated high school to
now to receive and earn mybachelor's degree.
(40:38):
First
Liz Canada (40:39):
of all,
Grace Kindeke (40:39):
congratulations by the by.
Let's
Liz Canada (40:42):
give you the kudos that you very much deserve.
Congratulations
Grace Kindeke (40:45):
on that.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I'm deeply grateful very proudof myself and just I'm so
grateful for all the supportthat I got because you need that
support, right?
You were a college advisor.
You know how hard college is.
And I was a young adult.
I was a working adult, right?
And it was still a verydifficult thing to navigate.
(41:05):
But again, going back to it,it's just so important to
recognize that there are basicrequirements that everybody has
to meet in order to get intoschool, to get into college, any
college.
And also, we need tointerrogate what is actually
meant by a statement like that,which is that I don't believe
this group for people are goodenough, smart enough, qualified
enough.
And then thirdly, again, wehave to interrogate this idea of
(41:28):
scarcity, that there is notenough.
For everyone, that there's notenough colleges so that everyone
who wants to go to college cango to college.
When we don't take intoconsideration, well, why can't
people access college?
I bet you it's not because Juanor Armando or, you know, Dream
or Favor or Romeo is taking yourcollege entrance, right?
(41:51):
It's because are there enoughfunds to support students to be
able to go to school?
Are there enough academicsupports to help students who
want to go to college?
know what to do?
Do we have the structures andthe infrastructure in place to
truly support studentsregardless of their status to be
able to meet their collegedreams?
Not why is one person gettingin and the other person isn't
(42:13):
getting in?
I mean, come on.
Grace, funny
Liz Canada (42:16):
story.
The budget that passed in NewHampshire actually cut funding
from higher education.
So it seems a little bit weirdthat we would be critical of who
is going to college and sayingthat our U.S.
citizens should get into thoseschools and then give those
(42:36):
schools less money.
Grace Kindeke (42:38):
Weird.
Right.
And now they have to increasetuitions.
And that is a pretty hugebarrier as to who can actually
go to college is can you affordit?
Can you
Liz Canada (42:47):
pay for college?
Just a deep sigh.
All right.
So immigrants are now takingthe seats from...
students at college.
Okay, so so far I'm over threeis what I'm hearing here.
Not a great record.
Tell me the positive ways thatimmigrants contribute to New
(43:08):
Hampshire, to our communities,to our to our lives
Grace Kindeke (43:12):
every day.
Absolutely.
I mean, immigrants contributein so many ways.
People often start with thecontributions to the workforce,
a big portion of our direct careworkers who care for our loved
ones with disabilities, ourloved ones who are aging, our
(43:32):
elders in nursing homes.
A lot of those folks arethemselves immigrants, right?
So we have huge swaths of ourworkforce, our caregiving
workforce that are As well asour service workers.
I mean, no single person is anisland.
This whole mythology ofindividualism that our country
(43:52):
purports and builds entiremonoliths on top of is wrong.
We are an interdependentspecies.
We always have been.
Nothing you are wearing,eating, sitting in on was built
by one person.
You didn't build it.
There are invisible hands allover.
our lives everywhere right fromthe like I said earlier in the
(44:14):
show from the milk you buy atHannaford that milk was milked
by immigrant hands, from theloved ones you have in a nursing
home, they're being cared forin the hands of immigrants.
But it goes beyond that too,right?
It's not just what immigrantscontribute monetarily, although
immigrants pay billions ofdollars in taxes, both
(44:35):
undocumented and
Liz Canada (44:36):
documented.
Just for the sake of thepodcast life, can you say that
one more time for the people inthe back of the podcast?
Grace Kindeke (44:47):
I would be happy to.
Immigrants both undocumentedand documented pay billions of
dollars in taxes.
Billions.
I paid taxes when I wasundocumented.
I filed that IRS tax reportevery year and I paid my share
of taxes as so many other peopledo.
It is absolutely financiallythat immigrants contribute.
(45:09):
They contribute to our socialfabric, our social networks, but
they also are our loved ones.
They are our family members.
So often I think people who arein this country you know have
maybe been here for generationswere born here forget their own
immigrant background themselvesright unless you are Native
American y'all came everybodycame from somewhere you know and
(45:31):
maybe one portion of yourfamily is Native American but
the other portion is fromIreland or Wales or Cameroon
Liz Canada (45:39):
okay on the nose there but yes I could just tell
I know it's the complexion it'sthe sunburn it's the Freckles.
Grace Kindeke (45:51):
Yeah, totally.
So it's just, you know, weforget our own immigration
stories, our own immigranthistories, our histories, our
communities are interwoven withone another.
So when you were talking aboutthat, like intersectional
overlapping, that can also beseen in our relationships,
right?
Immigrants are our loved ones.
They are our neighbors.
They're our colleagues.
They're our child's bestfriends.
(46:13):
They're our spouses.
They're our partners.
I mean, they are part of ourfamilies and communities.
And So behaving as ifimmigrants are the separate
other completely erases theinterwoven ways that we are in
relationship, either through ourown history and or through our
relationships with immigrantpeople.
(46:34):
And there are those realfinancial, monetary, social
fabric contributions, but it'salso just recognizing too,
there's the contributions inculture, in flavor, in
seasoning, you know, it, Itadds, it enhances how we are and
who we are.
And pretending otherwise justdoes us all a huge disservice.
Liz Canada (46:59):
I'm so glad you came on the podcast, Grace.
Thank you.
Thank you so, so much forputting up with the myths that
are out there and answeringthose questions and walking me
and a listener through what thereality is, what's actually
true, and giving the space forfolks to hear it and sit with it
(47:20):
and process it.
I have learned a lot in myjourney, and I am always
learning because that is my job.
We have to keep learning.
I will never understand what itis like for somebody who has
gone through the process ofbecoming a U.S.
citizen or is an undocumentedindividual or has a green card,
whatever the status is.
(47:41):
I will never understand it, butI can try to learn more to
educate myself to be better andto do better.
You know what we didn't talkabout, Grace?
Sanctuary cities.
I'm
Grace Kindeke (47:54):
I think absolutely, because the
anti-sanctuary cities laws thatwere passed just in this
session, as well as multiplecounties and municipalities
entering into 287G agreements.
I mean, we are seeing in realtime that deportation and
detention, mass deportationinfrastructure getting built
(48:14):
within our own cities andcounties.
And those are our publicdollars, y'all, and there are
better ways to use them.
So yeah, let's talk about itlater.
Liz Canada (48:21):
We are in the worst version of the multiverse right
now.
Thinking about
Grace Kindeke (48:25):
all this.
We are.
But you know what?
It's also such an incredibleopportunity for us to actually
exercise our power.
I mean, more so than in anyother moment are we seeing just
how impactful it can be whenpeople and communities rise up
together.
So this is our opportunity todo that together.
Liz Canada (48:42):
Exercising.
It's not just for CrossFit forme in the morning.
It's also taking action inother ways.
You don't just have to do wallballs.
You can also...
Squats and calls.
Squats and calls.
Yes.
Don't give my coaches any ideas,Grace.
They're like, all right, youwant a phone bang?
Let's see 150 squats.
Grace Kindeke (49:10):
And it can be really easy to other immigrants
as if it's like some secretcabal living on the outskirts of
our cities and towns.
I mean, apparently.
I don't get the newsletter, butI think it's a good one.
I get my own newsletter, as weall
Liz Canada (49:25):
know.
The agenda that we send outweekly.
Grace Kindeke (49:28):
Exactly.
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