October 14, 2025 • 43 mins
The issue so many Granite Staters (and beyond) have asked about: why isn't marijuana legalized in New Hampshire? The ::checks notes:: "Live Free or Die" state?
Devon Chaffee (Executive Director at ACLU-NH) joins Liz to explain just how close New Hampshire has gotten to legalizing cannabis...and why it will probably take some time to get over the finish line.
Devon brings numbers to the table, and Liz brings yet another musical reference.
New episodes on Tuesdays.
Become a supporter of the show --> this helps Liz continue to make episodes!
Have an idea for an upcoming episode? Email Liz: newhampshirehasissues@gmail.com
Links:
- ACLU-NH
- Ayotte stands firm in opposition to marijuana legalization: ‘My concerns are quality of life.’ (NH Bulletin)
- New Hampshire House passes cannabis legalization, but enthusiasm lags (NH Bulletin)
- NH Senate committee opposes marijuana legalization bill (NHPR)
- NH Gov.-elect Kelly Ayotte talks housing, marijuana, education freedom accounts (Seacoast Online)
- 2024 Gubernatorial Forum: Candidates views on marijuana legalization (NHPR)
- House kills cannabis legalization after failed compromise with Senate (NH Bulletin)
- NH law expands medical marijuana qualifiers; Sununu vetoes cannabis greenhouses (Seacoast Online)
- Adult Use Retail Sales Data (State of Maine Department of Administrative and Financial Services, Office of Cannabis Policy)
- Reefer Madness (New Los Angeles Cast Recording) (Apple Music)
- Reefer Madness (Original Motion Picture Soundtrack and Original Los Angeles Cast Recording) (Spotify)
Podcast theme music by Transistor.fm. Learn how to start a podcast here.
New Hampshire Has Issues is generously sponsored by Seacoast Soils, an organic compost and topsoil provider for New Hampshire, Maine, and Northeast Massachusetts. Visit their website at www.seacoastsoil.com!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Liz Canada (00:00):
No pressure on answering this question, but
have you listened to any of theepisodes to get a sense of the
vibe of the show?
No stress.
Devon Chaffee (00:06):
I have not.
Liz Canada (00:08):
Okay, then you're gonna have no idea what is
coming.
That is gonna be great.
I love that for me.
Devon Chaffee (00:14):
Have I learned nothing from listening to Mark
Marin?
That is the question.
Liz Canada (00:18):
Oh.
Well, it's almost the same hereon the pod.
Almost exactly the same.
WTF.
It's basically the name.
Yes, that is.
That should be the hashtagWTFNH.
You're listening to NewHampshire Has Issues, and I am
(00:45):
your host from the future, LizCanada.
This episode is all about howNew Hampshire still, still in
the future, now, has notlegalized marijuana.
So many folks have requestedthis episode topic.
And so, first of all, thank youif you're one of those people
(01:05):
who's written in to ask.
If you would like to supportthe show, please share this
episode.
Or, you know, share any of theepisodes, frankly.
But because this is such apopular topic, this is a good
one to share with others whomight have that same question.
Why the heck?
Has it New Hampshire?
Legalized marijuana.
Another way to support the showis to become a monthly
(01:27):
supporter.
Patreon.com slash nh hasissues.
I will have a special gift outto the folks who are my original
Patreons.
That's going to be happeningthis winter, so if you sign up
now, you will be in for a treat.
Thank you for listening, and Iwill pass it back over to me.
So, Devin, I am so glad thatyou are here.
This is the number one topicthat people want to know about,
(01:53):
which is interesting asdemocracy crumbles around us.
But like this is the topic.
But before we get into it, atthe beginning of every episode,
I ask my guest to do a taglinefor the episode.
So the tagline is in the formof Welcome to New Hampshire Has
Issues, the podcast that daresto ask.
Devon Chaffee (02:15):
Why is New Hampshire still jailing people
for marijuana?
Oh, okay.
That's a great question to ask.
And I think all these peoplethat are asking you, you know,
to cover this issue or areasking because they have the
same question, right?
Liz Canada (02:31):
Yeah.
My tagline, welcome to NewHampshire Has Issues, the
podcast that dares to ask, howcan we be the live free or die
state and not have legalizedmarijuana?
Devon Chaffee (02:44):
I mean, the state of New Hampshire, we don't
require adults to wear helmetson motorcycles.
Right.
We don't require adults to wearseatbelts and cars.
Sure.
But for some reason we continueto prohibit the recreational
use of marijuana.
Like how are we how are wemaking sense of this?
Liz Canada (03:01):
And they say just go across the border.
Just go to another state.
It makes no sense.
All right.
Well, I am your host, LizCanada, and joining me today is
the executive director of theACLU New Hampshire, Devin
Chafee.
Devin, you're here talking tome about marijuana legalization.
Devon Chaffee (03:21):
Thank you for being here.
Oh, thank you so much forhaving me, Liz.
I I love nothing more than tohave a conversation with you.
So this is great.
This is gonna be great.
Liz Canada (03:29):
So I like to start every episode with a simple
question.
Why hasn't New Hampshire, thelive free or die state with the
no seat belts and the nohelmets, why has New Hampshire
not legalized marijuana?
Devon Chaffee (03:43):
So I want to start by saying that it's not
because there isn't the popularsupport, right?
There is clearly widespreadsupport in New Hampshire for the
legalization of marijuana.
I think the most recent pollingputs it at 74% of granite
staters support legalization ofmarijuana.
So it is popular, right?
Liz Canada (04:05):
That's a very high percentage.
74%?
Devon Chaffee (04:08):
Yeah.
Again, like how do we findourselves in this situation?
And I think it is a mix of youhave politicians, elected
officials who are somewhatremoved from the reality of some
of their constituents and whatthe real reality is on the
ground in New Hampshire withregards to, I guess, what people
(04:29):
are using marijuana in thestate of New Hampshire, even
though it's not a good one.
Devin.
Liz Canada (04:32):
Don't tell anyone that doesn't happen.
No, of course not.
Devon Chaffee (04:34):
The same officials are very afraid of
backlash from the police.
They know that if they supportlegalization, they're constantly
getting phone calls from theirpolice chiefs telling them not
to support it.
And they don't see the thatthey will have any political
consequences for opposing it,right?
So they are afraid of backlashfrom the police if they support
(04:55):
legalization.
They don't think there aregoing to be any political
consequences if they oppose it,and they don't really see any
political advantage tosupporting it.
And so we wind up in this sortof place where there just isn't
the momentum to finally passlegalization.
Now we have gotten so close inNew Hampshire.
(05:15):
And in 2014, we were actuallythe New Hampshire House was the
first legislative chamber in thecountry to pass a legalization
bill.
Um, but we've never been ableto get it across the finish
line.
We were first in the nation?
We did it?
The New Hampshire House was thefirst in the nation to pass a
bill because you had had all ofthese.
(05:35):
Normally it had to go to, youknow, a ballot initiative up
until that point.
And over half of the 24 statesthat have passed legalization
nationwide have done so by thepeople saying, we want this and
we want it now.
No, that's not an option herein New Hampshire.
So that's another thing toremember that a lot of the
states that have passedlegalization have done so
without the help of theirlegislators, right?
(05:57):
They signed petitions and thenthey voted because that is what
the people wanted.
And unfortunately, because wedon't have ballot initiatives
here in New Hampshire, you know,that's not an option.
Liz Canada (06:07):
I lived in Colorado when uh marijuana legalization
happened.
Like we legalized it through,like you said, the ballot
initiative, I believe, voted forit in the November election.
We can't do that here in NewHampshire.
Why not?
Like 74% of granite statersyou're saying support this.
Devon Chaffee (06:27):
Why can't we do that on our ballot?
New Hampshire's constitutionjust doesn't have that as an
option for New Hampshire votersin other states.
They have, you can bring awhole host of different types of
issues, you know, to thepeople.
And that can create challengesas well, but it can also create
really exciting opportunities,you know, in the reproductive
rights space.
We've seen when it goes to thepeople, people want the right to
(06:50):
access abortion, right?
And it's been a reallyimportant tool there.
And it just isn't provided forin the New Hampshire
Constitution.
And in order to change that, itwould take a 60% majority of in
both the House and the Senate,and then a very large majority,
you know, when it when it goesto the ballot.
So changing the New HampshireConstitution to allow for ballot
initiatives would be quite anundertaking.
Liz Canada (07:12):
So we have to go through our lawmakers.
The only path is through our424 friends and our governor
friend.
They're the ones who can do it.
They're the only ones who cando it.
Devon Chaffee (07:23):
Now, in 2024, both the House and the Senate
passed bills to move forwardwith legalization.
And the governor said he wouldsign up.
Wait, wait, wait.
Liz Canada (07:34):
2024?
That was like five seconds ago.
That just happened.
Devon Chaffee (07:39):
Very fresh in my memory was but they couldn't
agree on what type oflegalization they wanted, right?
One wanted one that was morealong the lines of the liquor
commission.
That was the Senate proposalthat the governor, Governor
Sununu really supported andwanted to see.
And then the, you know, manyfolks in the House wanted
(08:02):
something that was more alongthe lines of an industry-led
initiative that you might see inMassachusetts or in Maine and
some of the other states thathave legalized.
And they they couldn't come toan agreement.
So close.
So close.
So there was a contingent inthe house that thought there was
too much government oversight,and they and they also had had
(08:24):
troubles with some of thecriminal penalties.
So there were issues.
There were issues with thatbill.
We supported the bill.
We think that that next stepwas really important.
But there were issues likethere were increased criminal
penalties for smoking marijuanain public.
We fought really hard to getthose so that the first offense
was not, you know, a class Amisdemeanor, that you couldn't
(08:44):
go to jail for smoking amarijuana, you know, for smoking
a joint in public, which youcan't, by the way, now if it's
less than three-quarters of anounce.
So it would have actually beena more severe penalty than what
we currently have.
Um, so there were there werelegitimate disputes over it, and
also this broader concern overlike what the legal the
structure of legalization shouldlook, should look like, who
(09:06):
should be running it and whoshould benefit.
There were folks who votedagainst it who clearly have
support legalization.
Yeah.
They just decided that theydidn't want to support this path
to legalization.
And I think they thought theyhad time.
I think, you know, some thoughtthat there was a good
likelihood that we would have agovernor who would support
(09:29):
legalization and that they wouldget what they wanted, right?
You know, in 2025.
And that clearly is not whathappened.
Um it's just the perfect is theenemy of the good sort of
situation.
I think it is the perfect isthe enemy of the good, Liz.
And I think that's a greatinsight into one of the main
(09:49):
things that you know we we havestruggled with as we we go
through this process.
Um, there I think it's unlikethere is no perfect way to
legalize marijuana.
It's complicated, right?
It's incredibly complicated.
Any of the regimes that havebeen set up, whether it's
Colorado or Maine or Californiaor Massachusetts, like they they
(10:11):
all have their own style.
There are many differentdecision points that you have to
make.
And to me, it is so clear thatwe we within certain boundaries,
we just need to get over thehump and then figure, we will
figure the details out as weroll out.
And you've seen every everystate has had updates and
tweaks, and there will besubsequent legislation.
(10:32):
And to not, as you said,exactly not to let the perfect
be the enemy of the good.
And I think that is definitelysomething that we have seen.
Um, and that has been a a hugebarrier to getting this
legislation through.
Liz Canada (10:46):
But it's happens so often with policies of like,
well, it's not exactly what Iwanted.
Devon Chaffee (10:53):
And to me, as you know, somebody who has the
honor of being able to do thisadvocacy from a mission
perspective, I feel like a realresponsibility to the people who
entrust us with the resources,our donors, our supporters, to
have an impact.
And you can't have an impact ifyou are always holding out for
(11:16):
the perfect solution.
And so you have to be willingto make smart compromises.
You don't roll over, but youhave to be willing to make smart
compromises in order to have animpact on people's lives.
And quite frankly, that is why,right, people support
organizations like the ACLU.
They don't just support usbecause we say good things, they
(11:37):
they support us because theythink we're gonna make a
difference.
And so, you know, when I, youknow, we we we didn't think that
that bill that was proposed bythe Senate in 2024 was perfect.
I was late into the night inthe Senate, Liz.
I was offering, I was helpingdraft amendments.
Yeah, you know, I wasresponding to bad amendments
(11:59):
that were being made.
We were fighting every singlestep of the way to make that
bill as good as we could makeit.
Liz Canada (12:04):
Yeah.
Devon Chaffee (12:04):
And in the end, we have to be willing to
compromise if we're actuallygonna get to that next level, if
we're actually gonna have animpact.
Liz Canada (12:12):
If we were that close in 2024, does that mean
like we're even closer now?
Like, what are these next stepsto getting it over the finish
line?
Like, has that agreementhappened?
What's what's the status after2024?
Devon Chaffee (12:29):
The status since 2024 is that our current
governor, Governor Ayot, hassaid very clearly, and she's she
made this very clear on thecampaign trail that she opposes
marijuana legalization.
And so, in order to overcomethat opposition, it would be
extremely difficult.
Um, and there's no indicationthat the Republicans in
(12:50):
leadership, especially inleadership of the Senate in the
Senate, have any interest inrequiring the governor to veto a
legalization bill.
So I think that it's it's amuch harder and much more uphill
battle now than it was where in2024, where Sununu made clear
that he would have been open toa certain form of legalization
(13:12):
in the state, unfortunately.
Liz Canada (13:15):
So even harder now, current governor has said very
clearly, I do not support this.
I do not want to legalizemarijuana in the state.
Devon Chaffee (13:24):
She's a former criminal prosecutor, you know,
she comes from a law enforcementbackground.
It's not shocking, but it isunfortunate.
Liz Canada (13:31):
What's the deal with the law enforcement in
marijuana?
Is it like what like what whydo they care so much, I guess?
Like what is the issue there?
Devon Chaffee (13:41):
Well, I think it's it is a question of taking
away their authority, right?
And and they use that authorityin a number of ways.
So it's not only is it thisquestion of them wanting to be
able to arrest folks onmarijuana-related crime, but
also they use marijuana as areason, some might say a pretext
to engage in certain searchesof cars, uh, to, you know, if
(14:05):
you smell marijuana, you know,you you might use that to
justify searching a house or acar or even an individual's
person.
And so often, right, they usethese types of marijuana-related
offenses against folks, evenif, you know, that that it's
just a pretext for them wantingto be able to search or or
detain them for other reasons.
(14:26):
And there's a lot of likemisinformation that is become a
part of that discussion, right?
There are all of theseaccusations made about, well, if
you legalize, we're gonna seetraffic accidents skyrocket,
we're gonna see child use, youknow, go through the roof, we're
gonna see all of these otherthings that are gonna happen
when the sky is gonna fall,right?
Lots of chicken littles runningaround.
Liz Canada (14:48):
We saw in those 24 states, like they've completely
collapsed.
It's just complete chaos there.
Exactly.
Devon Chaffee (14:57):
And it just is divorced from reality and it's
divorced from any of the studiesthat have done.
We now have quite a bit ofinformation, right?
Because as you said, Liz, wehave 24 folks.
I don't when was it thatColorado legalized when it was a
good idea?
A long time.
Liz Canada (15:08):
I was still living there.
So I moved away in 2014.
So it was before that.
That's a long time ago.
Devon Chaffee (15:14):
A decade of data, and there have been a
significant, you know, asignificant amount of studies on
the impacts, and we know thatit doesn't lead to an increase
in traffic fatalities.
We know that it doesn't resultin an increase in uh youth use.
You know, there's all of these,there's there's very good data
backing that is contrary to someof these assertions that are
(15:36):
being made about the negativeimpact of legalization.
Generally, when folks aremaking this argument, they
ignore the fact that people arecurrently using marijuana in the
state of New Hampshire.
It's not as if we're startingfrom a place where nobody is
using marijuana, and then all ofa sudden we're gonna legalize
and the, you know, all will havea huge part of the population.
There's already a significantportion of the population that
(15:58):
is using marijuana.
They're just driving to Maine.
They're just driving toMassachusetts or they're up in
the North Country growing it intheir backyard, right?
And so the question isn'twhether or not people should be
using marijuana, it's whether ornot we think that it should,
you know, folks shouldpotentially face jail time for
it.
Um, and certainly from like anthat's you know, from the ACLU
(16:19):
perspective, we think that'sreally unjust.
Liz Canada (16:22):
Yeah, that was sort of my next question.
Why does the ACLU care aboutthis?
This is something that I knowthat your organization has been
working on.
Why does this matter so much toyour organization?
Devon Chaffee (16:34):
We at the ACLU really care about this issue,
primarily because of the waythat it impacts real people's
lives that get ensnared up inthe criminal justice system
because of a marijuana charge.
Now, we were able to achievedecriminalization in New
Hampshire.
So, like up to three-quartersof an ounce, you know, you you
don't you should not go to jailfor that for a violation.
(16:57):
You should just get aviolation.
But we still know that there'sover a thousand arrests that are
marijuana-related that are madein the state of New Hampshire
every year, even withdecriminalization.
And so all, you know, theseover a thousand people every
single year are getting ensnaredin the criminal justice system.
They're having to go to court,they're potentially missing
(17:18):
work.
And then there are all of thesecollateral consequences of
having that type of record.
It makes it more difficult toget housing, it makes it more
difficult to find employment, itmakes it, you know, it can
interfere with people's childcustody situations.
Like there are real seriousconsequences for having a
marijuana-related offense.
And the racial impact of thesepolicies, they're so
(17:41):
disproportionately applied topeople of color, black and brown
people in this state of NewHampshire, it's staggering,
right?
And so even though we know thatthey're the rates of use are
similar, I want to be clear.
The rates of use along raciallines are very similar across
racial lines.
But black people in NewHampshire are 4.8 times more
(18:03):
likely to be arrested for amarijuana offense.
And this is 2020 informationthan white people.
4.8 times more.
Yes.
So the impact that it has onthis and on our state,
especially, you know, obviouslythat's a small, small population
in this state, right, is reallysignificant.
(18:23):
Um, and a huge part of whydecriminalization and
legalization has been such apriority for the ACLU, including
the, you know, including ouraffiliate here in New Hampshire.
And we also know, you know,we're not primarily motivated by
this, but it's also like a hugewaste of taxpayer money.
(18:43):
Every time that somebody isarrested in the state of New
Hampshire, our tax dollars go topaying a judge and a clerk and
law enforcement officers andprosecutors.
And this is all time that couldbe spent on real crime or
violent crime or property crimethat's actually having a
negative impact on other peoplein the state of New Hampshire
(19:04):
that is instead being used to goafter these folks for marijuana
offenses.
And, you know, we uh did astudy that was um in, I think it
was it's a little a bitoutdated, it was in 2010, but it
showed that there was like over$6.5 million was spent annually
on enforcing marijuana offensesthroughout the state of New
(19:26):
Hampshire.
And as we all know in NewHampshire alone?
6.5 million?
Yes.
So we we you know and we don'thave a huge source of revenue in
this state.
And so why are we using theselimited resources?
If we want to make ourcommunity safer, why are we
using law enforcement towards,you know, to uh resources
(19:49):
towards these you know marijuanacrimes?
Uh it just doesn't make sense,and it has a real impact on the
people who are the target ofthese prosecutions.
6.5 million dollars a year.
Okay.
If you want to, Liz, if youwant to go, do you want to go
down the the financialimplications route?
Liz Canada (20:09):
I have a pencil, Devin, for this reason.
Devon Chaffee (20:12):
Yes, I do.
Then let's do this.
Let's do this.
And I, you know, it's clear,obviously, the you know, the
ACLU, I am not a revenue expert,you know, and that's not the
primary motivation of the ACLU,but it is a reality of this
issue topic.
Because the amount, it's notjust that we're spending this
amount on enforcing these laws,but the amount of revenue in
(20:33):
taxes and fees that the state isgiving up by not having
legalized, right?
Yes.
Liz Canada (20:41):
And instead, people are saying politicians, elected
officials are like, we're notgoing to legalize it here.
You can just go to Maine andbuy it there.
Give them your money.
Devon Chaffee (20:51):
Why are we doing this?
Maine is making somewhere alongthe lines of $40 million
annually, according to the Mainestatistics, the government
available data on this.
I have talked, I have talked toNew Hampshire legislators who
voted against legalization in2024, who once they realized
what a significant deficit wewere looking at and what the
(21:14):
revenue numbers look like in NewHampshire, which was there's a
severe decline, right?
Yes.
They regretted that decisionbecause it could have made some
of the really difficultfinancial decisions that are
being made about the services,critical services that are being
provided to grand estaters,could have been those hard
(21:36):
decisions that are being madecould have been avoided had we
created a system where we werecreating a revenue stream.
And I'm speaking here, youknow, I'm a I'm a New Englander.
Most of my family's fromWestern Massachusetts, right?
Real working class town inWestern Massachusetts.
Where did all of them go to buytheir cigarettes and alcohol
while I was growing up?
Beer and cigarettes, you go upto the New Hampshire border,
(21:58):
right?
You go into that, you go to theoutlets, you avoid the high
taxes, the New Hampshireadvantage.
Like that was those were thetrips my family made.
And now instead, they'rethey're getting in their own
town.
They're like, why do I need,you know, my and my poor, my
poor uncle who lives in NewHampshire is having to what
drive down to Massachusetts?
It just doesn't make sense.
(22:19):
If you go down to theRockingham Mall, is over the
holidays.
Where is the Rockingham Mall?
It's on the border ofMassachusetts and New Hampshire,
down in this, the the southerntip of the state.
You should visit it.
It's a great mall.
Liz Canada (22:33):
Devin, I literally live in Exeter.
Is it near me or is it faraway?
Devon Chaffee (22:36):
It's maybe an hour south.
Liz Canada (22:38):
I'm terrible at geography.
This is also a big part of theshow, is I don't know where
anything is.
I live in the county ofRockingham.
I know that.
Devon Chaffee (22:47):
I it might be closer.
I'm I'm not great at geographyeither.
Liz Canada (22:51):
I will I will I'll look on a map and I'll find
Rockingham Mall.
Okay, so if I go there, whichis on the border.
Devon Chaffee (22:57):
If you go there during the holidays, you will
see that the lines of cars tothe dispensary over the border
in Massachusetts literally backsup into New Hampshire, right?
So you have people in NewHampshire, many of whom, by the
way, have New Hampshire licenseplates, who are waiting in line
(23:18):
to make that legal purchase.
And Massachusetts is gonnareceive the taxes and fees
associated with that purchaseinstead of New Hampshire.
And and how does that makepractical sense for our state?
Liz Canada (23:32):
So writing down the math for myself, in New
Hampshire, spent about $6.5million in enforcement and like
court fees, all those processesto like keep marijuana not
legalized, like to enforce thispolicy that we have.
And Maine, just a hop, skip,and a jump over the border, is
(23:56):
bringing in, so we are spendingmoney in New Hampshire, and
Maine is bringing in $40million.
Devon Chaffee (24:06):
And they just voted to raise the tax on
marijuana from 10 to 15%.
So I can only imagine, and Ithink that goes into effect in
January.
So I can only imagine that thatnumber is gonna increase.
Liz Canada (24:18):
So to recap, we are spending money when it comes to
our marijuana law of not havinglegalized marijuana, and Maine
is receiving money.
What the h, Devin?
Why is this so complicated?
This feels like just a slamdunk issue for pretty much any
(24:39):
politician.
Like 74% of people want this,and New Hampshire granite
staters want this.
We have a huge revenue problemin our state.
Like I had Phil Sletton on fora two-episode feature to talk
about the state budget andwhat's happening and how
revenues have gone down, andintentionally so, lawmakers made
(25:01):
that decision.
So lawmakers make the decisionto cut revenues and they make
the decision to not pass this,which is another revenue stream.
Why, Devin?
Why?
Why is this happening?
Devon Chaffee (25:11):
I mean, I'm gonna answer your question with a
question to a certain extent iswhy are there not more political
consequences for these types ofdecisions?
Why are we not making theconnection between the revenue
situation in our state and thesedecisions that are being made
and people not being able tounderstand how that could
(25:33):
potentially affect their dailylives with regards to services
or funding, you know, educationfunding or other potential, you
know, funding in the state.
Under the models that werebeing considered, some of this
revenue was supposed to gotowards education funding in the
state.
Now, that was very politicallyadvantageous because it would
reduce property taxes, right?
(25:53):
That was the idea.
You know, why, especially evenRepublicans would support that
is because there were, you know,even Republicans who are not
huge supporters of our publiceducation system would say,
well, it will reduce propertytaxes because you have more, you
know, state level funding foreducation.
And yet, even, you know, withthat direct connection with how
(26:15):
it could affect the pocketbookof granite staters when it comes
to what they're paying in theirproperty taxes, there is no
accountability for electedofficials and their decisions in
this realm.
Liz Canada (26:26):
Why?
I mean, people are literallyasking me with my teeny tiny
little podcast to cover thisissue.
So it is clearly on people'sminds.
And like I can see this, Idon't know, image of all these
things being intertwined, thislike spider web of garbage that
is going on with this topic,which is all these people
support it, our revenues aredown, our school funding issue
(26:47):
is a huge problem, and propertytaxes are so high and it is
crushing people.
We're arresting a thousandpeople a year, they're having
trouble finding housing.
We have a housing crisisalready.
Like all of this is just pilingup.
Why aren't they heldaccountable?
Why are the lawmakers who areconsciously choosing to not pass
this?
Is it not cutting through?
(27:08):
Do people just not see who dowe have too many lawmakers?
Is that part of the problem?
Like, what is it, Devin?
I know you just asked me, butI'm flipping it back to you.
What's going on?
Devon Chaffee (27:18):
I mean, it's a good question.
I mean, I wouldn't say it'sbecause we have too many
lawmakers and that the NewHampshire House has consistently
passed it, right?
So that's where the 400lawmakers are.
You're right.
And so it's, you know, thoselawmakers that actually have a
little bit more autonomy intheir decision making seem to be
able to get behind this effort.
They know it's popular, theyknow what the impact would be,
(27:40):
and maybe they might be have alittle bit more autonomy from
the police departments inwhatever region they may be in,
seem to be able to utilize moreautonomy when voting on this
issue.
Whereas, you know, the House,it wasn't until we had a you
know a governor who supported itthat we could even get him.
I mean, the Senate within theSenate, it wasn't until we had a
governor who was like, youknow, said publicly that he
(28:03):
would support it that theyreally even started, you know,
considering that maybe setSenate Republicans would get
behind the issue.
And I will say, when we havepreviously at the ACLU done
campaigns on specific, you know,there were, you know,
Democratic senators who wereally targeted who had actually
voted the wrong way.
And we were able to move themon the issue over time, right?
(28:26):
Even with their police chiefsupposing, we were able to get
them to support it.
But it took a lot of work andit's it's challeng- I don't
know, it's a good question, andit's a question I think we ask
ourselves is how can we all getmore engaged, right?
To let our legislators knowthat this isn't acceptable and
(28:47):
and how do we work with folks sothat they can make their
opinions known to their electedofficials.
And I think that's somethingwe're really trying to get at
and to understand better.
There's so many studies lists,right?
Like there are lots of reallygood data out there about what
we have seen in states that havelegalized.
(29:08):
And you can say it until you'reblue in the face and it doesn't
seem to permeate.
Liz Canada (29:13):
What is the data?
I think there's a part of itthat we've talked about that is
revenue into our state.
If you're truly looking at theledger at the end of the day, of
pluses and minuses of moneygoing in and money going out,
legalizing marijuana would bringin money to the state, which
would be helpful with all of ourstuff.
But what are the other benefitsto legalizing marijuana in a
(29:37):
state?
Devon Chaffee (29:38):
Well, I think one of the most significant
benefits is that you're notunjustly uh jailing people for
marijuana related offenses whenthe vast majority of granite
staters don't think we should bedoing that, right?
And that has like a realpositive event benefits,
especially for people of colorin the state because of the
disproportionate, um.
(29:59):
Uh application of the law.
And so you're talking aboutpeople not, I mean, the impact
of somebody's life in going tojail, of having to go through
the criminal justice system, ofhaving a criminal record is so
significant.
And so the difference in theirlives of not having that, you
know, is really meaningful.
(30:19):
And I, you know, I think backwe had a client here at the
ACLU, and this was beforedecriminalization, um, but he
got arrested for a possession ofa very small amount of
marijuana, wound up in theValley Street jail, and died
from a fentanyl overdose whilehe was in jail.
(30:40):
Now, question as to, and thiswas a man who was, you know, was
on house at the time.
Question as to whether or nothe would have even had access to
fentanyl if he hadn't been inthe Valley Street jail, right?
If if he had not had to gothrough that process, the impact
may have been that he wouldstill be alive today, right?
And so it's I I think theimpact can't be overstated.
(31:02):
The human impact oflegalization can't be
overstated.
Liz Canada (31:07):
I think about the musical that I love, Reef for
Madness.
It was uh it's based off of the1930s film, propaganda film
about Reaper Madness that waslike meant to terrify people to
be scared of marijuana.
Devon Chaffee (31:20):
I have seen the clips from that.
Liz Canada (31:21):
So it's a musical that's based on that movie.
It's a comedy.
They do a satire of that, whichwas all about scare tactics and
fear and making this aterrifying thing and making
groups of people really scary.
It feels a bit like how do Isay this?
I guess I could say it any wayI want to because I'm not
beholden to anyone with mylittle podcast.
(31:43):
But it feels like some of ourlawmakers are helping to
perpetuate some fear aboutpeople and about groups.
You know, we're recording thison September 22nd.
We are seeing in real time howpeople are being made into
villains, made into scary folks,and our lawmakers are
perpetuating that uh in thetypes of policies they're trying
(32:06):
to pass.
There's there's been a hugewave of anti-transgender hatred
in our state and in our statehouse and how people are,
speaking of transgender folks,there is a huge anti-immigrant
push in our state as well.
You're the ACLU.
You work on all of theseissues.
How do you see this fearpermeating in our state?
(32:26):
Is it just in my mind, in myalgorithm, am I seeing it on my
own, or is this a real thingthat is happening?
Devon Chaffee (32:34):
I mean, I think it's definitely a real thing
that is happening.
I think, you know, we areseeing we are seeing the use of
a punching down, right?
A punching down on some of themost vulnerable communities in
our state.
Those very, you know,relatively small immigrant
communities in the in the stateof New Hampshire, very small uh
(32:56):
populations of transgenderyouth, you know, very small and
very one of the most vulnerablepopulations in our state, right?
You know, you see theseridiculous mandatory minimums
being proposed for essentiallypeople who are simply addicted
to fentanyl that have beenproposed year after year in our
state, these vulnerablepopulations where politicians
(33:19):
are using fear as a politicalweapon and really punching down
against these vulnerablepopulations in our state, really
across the board.
And they've made a politicaldecision that that is how we're
gonna win elections.
And that was not the case.
In my experience, I've lived inNew Hampshire for 13 years now,
and that was not my experiencewhen I first moved to the state.
(33:41):
You know, there wasn't thissense that we can use hate and
fear as gonna main be our mainpolitical weapon.
And we there was a sense thatwe can come together to to have
protections for folks that arestruggling with drug addiction.
There was an understanding whenI first across political
parties that when it comes todrug addiction and drug use,
(34:05):
that we we should be looking atalternatives, right?
That it doesn't make sense tosimply jail folks.
There was an understanding thatthere was bipartisan support
for protections for for folksregardless of gender identity.
Um, when I first came to thisstate.
And I would say in the lastfive years, there there has been
a decision made that we aregoing to use fear and punching
(34:28):
down on particular vulnerablecommunities in this state as as
a political as a politicalmaneuver, and that this is how
folks think they're gonna winelections in the state.
And I think it's reallyunfortunate.
Liz Canada (34:40):
We have something, a policy that people care about
that is wildly popular, that isnot moved forward, that is sort
of stuck now for the foreseeablefuture.
And you have these otherpolicies that harm small groups
of people being just shoved downour throats, really.
Like it's just this constantattack on the most marginalized
(35:02):
communities in our state.
Devon Chaffee (35:03):
And instead of trying to come together on
policies that would be the bestfor our state and the best for
the people, everyday people inour state and their lives,
instead, we've decided now thatthe political advantageous thing
to do is to distract, right?
And to get people insteadfocused on these small and
vulnerable populations thataren't really affecting their
(35:25):
quality of life of the majorityof the population, but to try to
get them to believe that theyare and to stoke that fear.
Um, and so it's been a, Ithink, a really stark shift in
recent years in the state.
Liz Canada (35:38):
I would totally agree.
And a shocking shift in ourcountry as well, where it feels
like I can't believe every daythe different alerts that I get
of what's changing at thenational level and the attacks
on our freedom?
Liberty?
Voice?
(35:58):
What however we want to say it.
Do we still have the right tofree speech in our country?
Yes or no?
Devon Chaffee (36:04):
I think it is increasingly clear that the
right to free speech is under aheinous attack in this country.
I think we're seeing a rapidbacksliding of democratic
protections of free speech.
I it's you look at what's whatour national media outlets feel
that they the way that they canand cannot present information.
(36:25):
And you can you can feel, Ithink any normal reader can feel
like this doesn't feel likewhat is actually happening,
right, in our country.
And yeah, I think in recentincreasingly in recent months,
that has been the feeling thatwe are losing the ability, we
are losing the public square, ifyou will, not the literal
square, but this public squareof, you know, where we have
(36:48):
conversations, the public media,um, you know, internet the
conversations, broadcasting.
Like I just think the clear anddirect and brash attempts to
terrify folks into silence is isvery scary.
So I'm hearing a strong maybewe still have it.
(37:10):
We don't have any rights thatwe don't have to fight for every
step of the way, right?
So I think I think the answeris we we all better get
fighting, right?
These are not rights that wecan take for granted.
We've never been able to takethem for granted.
And surely in this climate, wecannot take them for granted.
So if we want to claw our wayback to having the ability to
(37:32):
communicate with one another andto express ourselves and to
express our opinions, we got toget on the front lines.
And that's that's certainly,you know, true for us at the
ACLU, but it's it's true for allof us.
Liz Canada (37:43):
All right.
Well, we'll fight for our firstamendment rights and then maybe
they'll move on to the second.
We'll keep it up for each oneas they just keep chipping away,
I guess.
We'll just we'll just work onthat.
How do you, the executivedirector of ACLU of New
Hampshire, how do you keep sanein these times?
How would you encourage alistener to deal with everything
that's happening?
Devon Chaffee (38:03):
Well, I find for me the best way to keep sane is
by figuring out what it is I cando, right?
And so I think I'm I'm actuallyreally lucky uh getting to work
at an organization like I workat with my teammates.
I am so lucky to be part ofsuch a talented and committed
team of folks.
And I feel like we allgenerally have a sense of what
(38:24):
our role is and what our laneis.
But there is a role for eachand every one of us, right?
Fighting for our rights,fighting to defend our
democracy, that is everyone'sjob.
And I think there is a role forus all to play.
And you don't have to play allof the roles, but you can figure
out what is the way in whichyou can plug in.
(38:45):
Is it by attending my localschool board and influencing
policy at that level?
Is it by, you know, organizingrallies in your hometown?
Is it by making frequent andpersistent calls to your state
legislators because you knowthat they are targets?
Or also thanking your statelegislators who are doing the
right thing.
Right.
Um, what are you know, maybebringing them some flowers when
(39:07):
they're because they don't get alot of that, by the way, when
they do do the right thing.
What are the different ways?
There are so many differentways to getting involved right
now and to to bring folkstogether, right?
You can you can have houseparties, you can you can talk to
people, you can connect withpeople, because I don't believe
that this fear-mongeringrepresents the opinion of the
(39:30):
majority of granite staters.
I don't believe that that'swhere we are as a state.
When I go around to talk topeople, even people who have
political different politicalviews than I do.
And I must I have found myselfa soccer mom.
I've got 11-year-old twins,they're out there playing.
Sometimes I can tell themapart.
Sometimes it's a challenge.
I'm gonna be honest.
(39:50):
Yeah.
But I, you know, I'm I'm outthere, I'm I'm having
conversations with folks.
They they don't all have sharemy political beliefs.
It's such, and it's such anopportunity to get to know
folks, you know, did who aredifferent from myself.
Right.
But I don't believe that theygo home at night and think, I
really want immigrants in Nashuato suffer, right?
I don't think that they, Idon't think that this is really
(40:12):
what what they are concernedabout or motivated most by.
They want the best shot atbeing able to support their kids
and to be able to support theirfamilies and to be prosperous
in this state.
And that's what they careabout.
And so, how, you know, the morethat we we talk to folks and we
(40:33):
mobilize folks, you know, Ithink that it's this is c
clearly a fight worth fightingfor in the state of New
Hampshire.
Um, because I don't think thatthis is where the majority of
the state is.
Liz Canada (40:44):
Yeah.
The folks who are immigrants inour state are not right keeping
our costs up, are not takingaway anything from us.
The transgender youth aren'traising our costs, but you know
what would help with our statefinances is legalizing marijuana
to bring in some money to ourstate.
Devon Chaffee (41:02):
It's been incredibly frustrating for
reasons why I think you're likesort of literally and
figuratively pulling your hairout as we've been having this
conversation, Liz.
Um I have less hair at the endof this episode, yeah, for sure.
You know, it makes so muchsense for the state of New
Hampshire in particular that wewould legalize marijuana,
revenue reasons, justicereasons, public opinion reasons,
(41:26):
just the general state ethos.
Um, and so the frustration hasjust been, you know, it's been
significant.
And it was very, verychallenging in 2024 when we came
so close, so very, very close.
And I will tell you, we weremaking phone calls, you know, we
have 400 reps, you know, andand and uh, you know, make
(41:49):
really trying to to get to to toget folks on board and come to
an agreement.
And it's been it's been anincredibly frustrating,
frustrating ride.
And you know, we'll we'll getit done.
We'll get it done.
But it's gonna, it's gonna be along road, unfortunately, now,
I think.
Liz Canada (42:07):
Devin, thank you so much.
This was really great.
Thank you so much for talkingwith me.
Devon Chaffee (42:12):
Oh, thank you so much, Liz, for having me on and
thank you for doing thispodcast.
I think these are conversationsthat really need to happen in
our state, and I'm so glad thatyou're helping to lead them.
Liz Canada (42:23):
I'm happy to send them off into the world to the
74% of Granite Staters whosupport marijuana legalization
and the others who areapparently are lawmakers.
No pressure on answering this question, but
have you listened to any of theepisodes to get a sense of the
vibe of the show?
No stress.
Devon Chaffee (00:06):
I have not.
Liz Canada (00:08):
Okay, then you're gonna have no idea what is
coming.
That is gonna be great.
I love that for me.
Devon Chaffee (00:14):
Have I learned nothing from listening to Mark
Marin?
That is the question.
Liz Canada (00:18):
Oh.
Well, it's almost the same hereon the pod.
Almost exactly the same.
WTF.
It's basically the name.
Yes, that is.
That should be the hashtagWTFNH.
You're listening to NewHampshire Has Issues, and I am
(00:45):
your host from the future, LizCanada.
This episode is all about howNew Hampshire still, still in
the future, now, has notlegalized marijuana.
So many folks have requestedthis episode topic.
And so, first of all, thank youif you're one of those people
(01:05):
who's written in to ask.
If you would like to supportthe show, please share this
episode.
Or, you know, share any of theepisodes, frankly.
But because this is such apopular topic, this is a good
one to share with others whomight have that same question.
Why the heck?
Has it New Hampshire?
Legalized marijuana.
Another way to support the showis to become a monthly
(01:27):
supporter.
Patreon.com slash nh hasissues.
I will have a special gift outto the folks who are my original
Patreons.
That's going to be happeningthis winter, so if you sign up
now, you will be in for a treat.
Thank you for listening, and Iwill pass it back over to me.
So, Devin, I am so glad thatyou are here.
This is the number one topicthat people want to know about,
(01:53):
which is interesting asdemocracy crumbles around us.
But like this is the topic.
But before we get into it, atthe beginning of every episode,
I ask my guest to do a taglinefor the episode.
So the tagline is in the formof Welcome to New Hampshire Has
Issues, the podcast that daresto ask.
Devon Chaffee (02:15):
Why is New Hampshire still jailing people
for marijuana?
Oh, okay.
That's a great question to ask.
And I think all these peoplethat are asking you, you know,
to cover this issue or areasking because they have the
same question, right?
Liz Canada (02:31):
Yeah.
My tagline, welcome to NewHampshire Has Issues, the
podcast that dares to ask, howcan we be the live free or die
state and not have legalizedmarijuana?
Devon Chaffee (02:44):
I mean, the state of New Hampshire, we don't
require adults to wear helmetson motorcycles.
Right.
We don't require adults to wearseatbelts and cars.
Sure.
But for some reason we continueto prohibit the recreational
use of marijuana.
Like how are we how are wemaking sense of this?
Liz Canada (03:01):
And they say just go across the border.
Just go to another state.
It makes no sense.
All right.
Well, I am your host, LizCanada, and joining me today is
the executive director of theACLU New Hampshire, Devin
Chafee.
Devin, you're here talking tome about marijuana legalization.
Devon Chaffee (03:21):
Thank you for being here.
Oh, thank you so much forhaving me, Liz.
I I love nothing more than tohave a conversation with you.
So this is great.
This is gonna be great.
Liz Canada (03:29):
So I like to start every episode with a simple
question.
Why hasn't New Hampshire, thelive free or die state with the
no seat belts and the nohelmets, why has New Hampshire
not legalized marijuana?
Devon Chaffee (03:43):
So I want to start by saying that it's not
because there isn't the popularsupport, right?
There is clearly widespreadsupport in New Hampshire for the
legalization of marijuana.
I think the most recent pollingputs it at 74% of granite
staters support legalization ofmarijuana.
So it is popular, right?
Liz Canada (04:05):
That's a very high percentage.
74%?
Devon Chaffee (04:08):
Yeah.
Again, like how do we findourselves in this situation?
And I think it is a mix of youhave politicians, elected
officials who are somewhatremoved from the reality of some
of their constituents and whatthe real reality is on the
ground in New Hampshire withregards to, I guess, what people
(04:29):
are using marijuana in thestate of New Hampshire, even
though it's not a good one.
Devin.
Liz Canada (04:32):
Don't tell anyone that doesn't happen.
No, of course not.
Devon Chaffee (04:34):
The same officials are very afraid of
backlash from the police.
They know that if they supportlegalization, they're constantly
getting phone calls from theirpolice chiefs telling them not
to support it.
And they don't see the thatthey will have any political
consequences for opposing it,right?
So they are afraid of backlashfrom the police if they support
(04:55):
legalization.
They don't think there aregoing to be any political
consequences if they oppose it,and they don't really see any
political advantage tosupporting it.
And so we wind up in this sortof place where there just isn't
the momentum to finally passlegalization.
Now we have gotten so close inNew Hampshire.
(05:15):
And in 2014, we were actuallythe New Hampshire House was the
first legislative chamber in thecountry to pass a legalization
bill.
Um, but we've never been ableto get it across the finish
line.
We were first in the nation?
We did it?
The New Hampshire House was thefirst in the nation to pass a
bill because you had had all ofthese.
(05:35):
Normally it had to go to, youknow, a ballot initiative up
until that point.
And over half of the 24 statesthat have passed legalization
nationwide have done so by thepeople saying, we want this and
we want it now.
No, that's not an option herein New Hampshire.
So that's another thing toremember that a lot of the
states that have passedlegalization have done so
without the help of theirlegislators, right?
(05:57):
They signed petitions and thenthey voted because that is what
the people wanted.
And unfortunately, because wedon't have ballot initiatives
here in New Hampshire, you know,that's not an option.
Liz Canada (06:07):
I lived in Colorado when uh marijuana legalization
happened.
Like we legalized it through,like you said, the ballot
initiative, I believe, voted forit in the November election.
We can't do that here in NewHampshire.
Why not?
Like 74% of granite statersyou're saying support this.
Devon Chaffee (06:27):
Why can't we do that on our ballot?
New Hampshire's constitutionjust doesn't have that as an
option for New Hampshire votersin other states.
They have, you can bring awhole host of different types of
issues, you know, to thepeople.
And that can create challengesas well, but it can also create
really exciting opportunities,you know, in the reproductive
rights space.
We've seen when it goes to thepeople, people want the right to
(06:50):
access abortion, right?
And it's been a reallyimportant tool there.
And it just isn't provided forin the New Hampshire
Constitution.
And in order to change that, itwould take a 60% majority of in
both the House and the Senate,and then a very large majority,
you know, when it when it goesto the ballot.
So changing the New HampshireConstitution to allow for ballot
initiatives would be quite anundertaking.
Liz Canada (07:12):
So we have to go through our lawmakers.
The only path is through our424 friends and our governor
friend.
They're the ones who can do it.
They're the only ones who cando it.
Devon Chaffee (07:23):
Now, in 2024, both the House and the Senate
passed bills to move forwardwith legalization.
And the governor said he wouldsign up.
Wait, wait, wait.
Liz Canada (07:34):
2024?
That was like five seconds ago.
That just happened.
Devon Chaffee (07:39):
Very fresh in my memory was but they couldn't
agree on what type oflegalization they wanted, right?
One wanted one that was morealong the lines of the liquor
commission.
That was the Senate proposalthat the governor, Governor
Sununu really supported andwanted to see.
And then the, you know, manyfolks in the House wanted
(08:02):
something that was more alongthe lines of an industry-led
initiative that you might see inMassachusetts or in Maine and
some of the other states thathave legalized.
And they they couldn't come toan agreement.
So close.
So close.
So there was a contingent inthe house that thought there was
too much government oversight,and they and they also had had
(08:24):
troubles with some of thecriminal penalties.
So there were issues.
There were issues with thatbill.
We supported the bill.
We think that that next stepwas really important.
But there were issues likethere were increased criminal
penalties for smoking marijuanain public.
We fought really hard to getthose so that the first offense
was not, you know, a class Amisdemeanor, that you couldn't
(08:44):
go to jail for smoking amarijuana, you know, for smoking
a joint in public, which youcan't, by the way, now if it's
less than three-quarters of anounce.
So it would have actually beena more severe penalty than what
we currently have.
Um, so there were there werelegitimate disputes over it, and
also this broader concern overlike what the legal the
structure of legalization shouldlook, should look like, who
(09:06):
should be running it and whoshould benefit.
There were folks who votedagainst it who clearly have
support legalization.
Yeah.
They just decided that theydidn't want to support this path
to legalization.
And I think they thought theyhad time.
I think, you know, some thoughtthat there was a good
likelihood that we would have agovernor who would support
(09:29):
legalization and that they wouldget what they wanted, right?
You know, in 2025.
And that clearly is not whathappened.
Um it's just the perfect is theenemy of the good sort of
situation.
I think it is the perfect isthe enemy of the good, Liz.
And I think that's a greatinsight into one of the main
(09:49):
things that you know we we havestruggled with as we we go
through this process.
Um, there I think it's unlikethere is no perfect way to
legalize marijuana.
It's complicated, right?
It's incredibly complicated.
Any of the regimes that havebeen set up, whether it's
Colorado or Maine or Californiaor Massachusetts, like they they
(10:11):
all have their own style.
There are many differentdecision points that you have to
make.
And to me, it is so clear thatwe we within certain boundaries,
we just need to get over thehump and then figure, we will
figure the details out as weroll out.
And you've seen every everystate has had updates and
tweaks, and there will besubsequent legislation.
(10:32):
And to not, as you said,exactly not to let the perfect
be the enemy of the good.
And I think that is definitelysomething that we have seen.
Um, and that has been a a hugebarrier to getting this
legislation through.
Liz Canada (10:46):
But it's happens so often with policies of like,
well, it's not exactly what Iwanted.
Devon Chaffee (10:53):
And to me, as you know, somebody who has the
honor of being able to do thisadvocacy from a mission
perspective, I feel like a realresponsibility to the people who
entrust us with the resources,our donors, our supporters, to
have an impact.
And you can't have an impact ifyou are always holding out for
(11:16):
the perfect solution.
And so you have to be willingto make smart compromises.
You don't roll over, but youhave to be willing to make smart
compromises in order to have animpact on people's lives.
And quite frankly, that is why,right, people support
organizations like the ACLU.
They don't just support usbecause we say good things, they
(11:37):
they support us because theythink we're gonna make a
difference.
And so, you know, when I, youknow, we we we didn't think that
that bill that was proposed bythe Senate in 2024 was perfect.
I was late into the night inthe Senate, Liz.
I was offering, I was helpingdraft amendments.
Yeah, you know, I wasresponding to bad amendments
(11:59):
that were being made.
We were fighting every singlestep of the way to make that
bill as good as we could makeit.
Liz Canada (12:04):
Yeah.
Devon Chaffee (12:04):
And in the end, we have to be willing to
compromise if we're actuallygonna get to that next level, if
we're actually gonna have animpact.
Liz Canada (12:12):
If we were that close in 2024, does that mean
like we're even closer now?
Like, what are these next stepsto getting it over the finish
line?
Like, has that agreementhappened?
What's what's the status after2024?
Devon Chaffee (12:29):
The status since 2024 is that our current
governor, Governor Ayot, hassaid very clearly, and she's she
made this very clear on thecampaign trail that she opposes
marijuana legalization.
And so, in order to overcomethat opposition, it would be
extremely difficult.
Um, and there's no indicationthat the Republicans in
(12:50):
leadership, especially inleadership of the Senate in the
Senate, have any interest inrequiring the governor to veto a
legalization bill.
So I think that it's it's amuch harder and much more uphill
battle now than it was where in2024, where Sununu made clear
that he would have been open toa certain form of legalization
(13:12):
in the state, unfortunately.
Liz Canada (13:15):
So even harder now, current governor has said very
clearly, I do not support this.
I do not want to legalizemarijuana in the state.
Devon Chaffee (13:24):
She's a former criminal prosecutor, you know,
she comes from a law enforcementbackground.
It's not shocking, but it isunfortunate.
Liz Canada (13:31):
What's the deal with the law enforcement in
marijuana?
Is it like what like what whydo they care so much, I guess?
Like what is the issue there?
Devon Chaffee (13:41):
Well, I think it's it is a question of taking
away their authority, right?
And and they use that authorityin a number of ways.
So it's not only is it thisquestion of them wanting to be
able to arrest folks onmarijuana-related crime, but
also they use marijuana as areason, some might say a pretext
to engage in certain searchesof cars, uh, to, you know, if
(14:05):
you smell marijuana, you know,you you might use that to
justify searching a house or acar or even an individual's
person.
And so often, right, they usethese types of marijuana-related
offenses against folks, evenif, you know, that that it's
just a pretext for them wantingto be able to search or or
detain them for other reasons.
(14:26):
And there's a lot of likemisinformation that is become a
part of that discussion, right?
There are all of theseaccusations made about, well, if
you legalize, we're gonna seetraffic accidents skyrocket,
we're gonna see child use, youknow, go through the roof, we're
gonna see all of these otherthings that are gonna happen
when the sky is gonna fall,right?
Lots of chicken littles runningaround.
Liz Canada (14:48):
We saw in those 24 states, like they've completely
collapsed.
It's just complete chaos there.
Exactly.
Devon Chaffee (14:57):
And it just is divorced from reality and it's
divorced from any of the studiesthat have done.
We now have quite a bit ofinformation, right?
Because as you said, Liz, wehave 24 folks.
I don't when was it thatColorado legalized when it was a
good idea?
A long time.
Liz Canada (15:08):
I was still living there.
So I moved away in 2014.
So it was before that.
That's a long time ago.
Devon Chaffee (15:14):
A decade of data, and there have been a
significant, you know, asignificant amount of studies on
the impacts, and we know thatit doesn't lead to an increase
in traffic fatalities.
We know that it doesn't resultin an increase in uh youth use.
You know, there's all of these,there's there's very good data
backing that is contrary to someof these assertions that are
(15:36):
being made about the negativeimpact of legalization.
Generally, when folks aremaking this argument, they
ignore the fact that people arecurrently using marijuana in the
state of New Hampshire.
It's not as if we're startingfrom a place where nobody is
using marijuana, and then all ofa sudden we're gonna legalize
and the, you know, all will havea huge part of the population.
There's already a significantportion of the population that
(15:58):
is using marijuana.
They're just driving to Maine.
They're just driving toMassachusetts or they're up in
the North Country growing it intheir backyard, right?
And so the question isn'twhether or not people should be
using marijuana, it's whether ornot we think that it should,
you know, folks shouldpotentially face jail time for
it.
Um, and certainly from like anthat's you know, from the ACLU
(16:19):
perspective, we think that'sreally unjust.
Liz Canada (16:22):
Yeah, that was sort of my next question.
Why does the ACLU care aboutthis?
This is something that I knowthat your organization has been
working on.
Why does this matter so much toyour organization?
Devon Chaffee (16:34):
We at the ACLU really care about this issue,
primarily because of the waythat it impacts real people's
lives that get ensnared up inthe criminal justice system
because of a marijuana charge.
Now, we were able to achievedecriminalization in New
Hampshire.
So, like up to three-quartersof an ounce, you know, you you
don't you should not go to jailfor that for a violation.
(16:57):
You should just get aviolation.
But we still know that there'sover a thousand arrests that are
marijuana-related that are madein the state of New Hampshire
every year, even withdecriminalization.
And so all, you know, theseover a thousand people every
single year are getting ensnaredin the criminal justice system.
They're having to go to court,they're potentially missing
(17:18):
work.
And then there are all of thesecollateral consequences of
having that type of record.
It makes it more difficult toget housing, it makes it more
difficult to find employment, itmakes it, you know, it can
interfere with people's childcustody situations.
Like there are real seriousconsequences for having a
marijuana-related offense.
And the racial impact of thesepolicies, they're so
(17:41):
disproportionately applied topeople of color, black and brown
people in this state of NewHampshire, it's staggering,
right?
And so even though we know thatthey're the rates of use are
similar, I want to be clear.
The rates of use along raciallines are very similar across
racial lines.
But black people in NewHampshire are 4.8 times more
(18:03):
likely to be arrested for amarijuana offense.
And this is 2020 informationthan white people.
4.8 times more.
Yes.
So the impact that it has onthis and on our state,
especially, you know, obviouslythat's a small, small population
in this state, right, is reallysignificant.
(18:23):
Um, and a huge part of whydecriminalization and
legalization has been such apriority for the ACLU, including
the, you know, including ouraffiliate here in New Hampshire.
And we also know, you know,we're not primarily motivated by
this, but it's also like a hugewaste of taxpayer money.
(18:43):
Every time that somebody isarrested in the state of New
Hampshire, our tax dollars go topaying a judge and a clerk and
law enforcement officers andprosecutors.
And this is all time that couldbe spent on real crime or
violent crime or property crimethat's actually having a
negative impact on other peoplein the state of New Hampshire
(19:04):
that is instead being used to goafter these folks for marijuana
offenses.
And, you know, we uh did astudy that was um in, I think it
was it's a little a bitoutdated, it was in 2010, but it
showed that there was like over$6.5 million was spent annually
on enforcing marijuana offensesthroughout the state of New
(19:26):
Hampshire.
And as we all know in NewHampshire alone?
6.5 million?
Yes.
So we we you know and we don'thave a huge source of revenue in
this state.
And so why are we using theselimited resources?
If we want to make ourcommunity safer, why are we
using law enforcement towards,you know, to uh resources
(19:49):
towards these you know marijuanacrimes?
Uh it just doesn't make sense,and it has a real impact on the
people who are the target ofthese prosecutions.
6.5 million dollars a year.
Okay.
If you want to, Liz, if youwant to go, do you want to go
down the the financialimplications route?
Liz Canada (20:09):
I have a pencil, Devin, for this reason.
Devon Chaffee (20:12):
Yes, I do.
Then let's do this.
Let's do this.
And I, you know, it's clear,obviously, the you know, the
ACLU, I am not a revenue expert,you know, and that's not the
primary motivation of the ACLU,but it is a reality of this
issue topic.
Because the amount, it's notjust that we're spending this
amount on enforcing these laws,but the amount of revenue in
(20:33):
taxes and fees that the state isgiving up by not having
legalized, right?
Yes.
Liz Canada (20:41):
And instead, people are saying politicians, elected
officials are like, we're notgoing to legalize it here.
You can just go to Maine andbuy it there.
Give them your money.
Devon Chaffee (20:51):
Why are we doing this?
Maine is making somewhere alongthe lines of $40 million
annually, according to the Mainestatistics, the government
available data on this.
I have talked, I have talked toNew Hampshire legislators who
voted against legalization in2024, who once they realized
what a significant deficit wewere looking at and what the
(21:14):
revenue numbers look like in NewHampshire, which was there's a
severe decline, right?
Yes.
They regretted that decisionbecause it could have made some
of the really difficultfinancial decisions that are
being made about the services,critical services that are being
provided to grand estaters,could have been those hard
(21:36):
decisions that are being madecould have been avoided had we
created a system where we werecreating a revenue stream.
And I'm speaking here, youknow, I'm a I'm a New Englander.
Most of my family's fromWestern Massachusetts, right?
Real working class town inWestern Massachusetts.
Where did all of them go to buytheir cigarettes and alcohol
while I was growing up?
Beer and cigarettes, you go upto the New Hampshire border,
(21:58):
right?
You go into that, you go to theoutlets, you avoid the high
taxes, the New Hampshireadvantage.
Like that was those were thetrips my family made.
And now instead, they'rethey're getting in their own
town.
They're like, why do I need,you know, my and my poor, my
poor uncle who lives in NewHampshire is having to what
drive down to Massachusetts?
It just doesn't make sense.
(22:19):
If you go down to theRockingham Mall, is over the
holidays.
Where is the Rockingham Mall?
It's on the border ofMassachusetts and New Hampshire,
down in this, the the southerntip of the state.
You should visit it.
It's a great mall.
Liz Canada (22:33):
Devin, I literally live in Exeter.
Is it near me or is it faraway?
Devon Chaffee (22:36):
It's maybe an hour south.
Liz Canada (22:38):
I'm terrible at geography.
This is also a big part of theshow, is I don't know where
anything is.
I live in the county ofRockingham.
I know that.
Devon Chaffee (22:47):
I it might be closer.
I'm I'm not great at geographyeither.
Liz Canada (22:51):
I will I will I'll look on a map and I'll find
Rockingham Mall.
Okay, so if I go there, whichis on the border.
Devon Chaffee (22:57):
If you go there during the holidays, you will
see that the lines of cars tothe dispensary over the border
in Massachusetts literally backsup into New Hampshire, right?
So you have people in NewHampshire, many of whom, by the
way, have New Hampshire licenseplates, who are waiting in line
(23:18):
to make that legal purchase.
And Massachusetts is gonnareceive the taxes and fees
associated with that purchaseinstead of New Hampshire.
And and how does that makepractical sense for our state?
Liz Canada (23:32):
So writing down the math for myself, in New
Hampshire, spent about $6.5million in enforcement and like
court fees, all those processesto like keep marijuana not
legalized, like to enforce thispolicy that we have.
And Maine, just a hop, skip,and a jump over the border, is
(23:56):
bringing in, so we are spendingmoney in New Hampshire, and
Maine is bringing in $40million.
Devon Chaffee (24:06):
And they just voted to raise the tax on
marijuana from 10 to 15%.
So I can only imagine, and Ithink that goes into effect in
January.
So I can only imagine that thatnumber is gonna increase.
Liz Canada (24:18):
So to recap, we are spending money when it comes to
our marijuana law of not havinglegalized marijuana, and Maine
is receiving money.
What the h, Devin?
Why is this so complicated?
This feels like just a slamdunk issue for pretty much any
(24:39):
politician.
Like 74% of people want this,and New Hampshire granite
staters want this.
We have a huge revenue problemin our state.
Like I had Phil Sletton on fora two-episode feature to talk
about the state budget andwhat's happening and how
revenues have gone down, andintentionally so, lawmakers made
(25:01):
that decision.
So lawmakers make the decisionto cut revenues and they make
the decision to not pass this,which is another revenue stream.
Why, Devin?
Why?
Why is this happening?
Devon Chaffee (25:11):
I mean, I'm gonna answer your question with a
question to a certain extent iswhy are there not more political
consequences for these types ofdecisions?
Why are we not making theconnection between the revenue
situation in our state and thesedecisions that are being made
and people not being able tounderstand how that could
(25:33):
potentially affect their dailylives with regards to services
or funding, you know, educationfunding or other potential, you
know, funding in the state.
Under the models that werebeing considered, some of this
revenue was supposed to gotowards education funding in the
state.
Now, that was very politicallyadvantageous because it would
reduce property taxes, right?
(25:53):
That was the idea.
You know, why, especially evenRepublicans would support that
is because there were, you know,even Republicans who are not
huge supporters of our publiceducation system would say,
well, it will reduce propertytaxes because you have more, you
know, state level funding foreducation.
And yet, even, you know, withthat direct connection with how
(26:15):
it could affect the pocketbookof granite staters when it comes
to what they're paying in theirproperty taxes, there is no
accountability for electedofficials and their decisions in
this realm.
Liz Canada (26:26):
Why?
I mean, people are literallyasking me with my teeny tiny
little podcast to cover thisissue.
So it is clearly on people'sminds.
And like I can see this, Idon't know, image of all these
things being intertwined, thislike spider web of garbage that
is going on with this topic,which is all these people
support it, our revenues aredown, our school funding issue
(26:47):
is a huge problem, and propertytaxes are so high and it is
crushing people.
We're arresting a thousandpeople a year, they're having
trouble finding housing.
We have a housing crisisalready.
Like all of this is just pilingup.
Why aren't they heldaccountable?
Why are the lawmakers who areconsciously choosing to not pass
this?
Is it not cutting through?
(27:08):
Do people just not see who dowe have too many lawmakers?
Is that part of the problem?
Like, what is it, Devin?
I know you just asked me, butI'm flipping it back to you.
What's going on?
Devon Chaffee (27:18):
I mean, it's a good question.
I mean, I wouldn't say it'sbecause we have too many
lawmakers and that the NewHampshire House has consistently
passed it, right?
So that's where the 400lawmakers are.
You're right.
And so it's, you know, thoselawmakers that actually have a
little bit more autonomy intheir decision making seem to be
able to get behind this effort.
They know it's popular, theyknow what the impact would be,
(27:40):
and maybe they might be have alittle bit more autonomy from
the police departments inwhatever region they may be in,
seem to be able to utilize moreautonomy when voting on this
issue.
Whereas, you know, the House,it wasn't until we had a you
know a governor who supported itthat we could even get him.
I mean, the Senate within theSenate, it wasn't until we had a
governor who was like, youknow, said publicly that he
(28:03):
would support it that theyreally even started, you know,
considering that maybe setSenate Republicans would get
behind the issue.
And I will say, when we havepreviously at the ACLU done
campaigns on specific, you know,there were, you know,
Democratic senators who wereally targeted who had actually
voted the wrong way.
And we were able to move themon the issue over time, right?
(28:26):
Even with their police chiefsupposing, we were able to get
them to support it.
But it took a lot of work andit's it's challeng- I don't
know, it's a good question, andit's a question I think we ask
ourselves is how can we all getmore engaged, right?
To let our legislators knowthat this isn't acceptable and
(28:47):
and how do we work with folks sothat they can make their
opinions known to their electedofficials.
And I think that's somethingwe're really trying to get at
and to understand better.
There's so many studies lists,right?
Like there are lots of reallygood data out there about what
we have seen in states that havelegalized.
(29:08):
And you can say it until you'reblue in the face and it doesn't
seem to permeate.
Liz Canada (29:13):
What is the data?
I think there's a part of itthat we've talked about that is
revenue into our state.
If you're truly looking at theledger at the end of the day, of
pluses and minuses of moneygoing in and money going out,
legalizing marijuana would bringin money to the state, which
would be helpful with all of ourstuff.
But what are the other benefitsto legalizing marijuana in a
(29:37):
state?
Devon Chaffee (29:38):
Well, I think one of the most significant
benefits is that you're notunjustly uh jailing people for
marijuana related offenses whenthe vast majority of granite
staters don't think we should bedoing that, right?
And that has like a realpositive event benefits,
especially for people of colorin the state because of the
disproportionate, um.
(29:59):
Uh application of the law.
And so you're talking aboutpeople not, I mean, the impact
of somebody's life in going tojail, of having to go through
the criminal justice system, ofhaving a criminal record is so
significant.
And so the difference in theirlives of not having that, you
know, is really meaningful.
(30:19):
And I, you know, I think backwe had a client here at the
ACLU, and this was beforedecriminalization, um, but he
got arrested for a possession ofa very small amount of
marijuana, wound up in theValley Street jail, and died
from a fentanyl overdose whilehe was in jail.
(30:40):
Now, question as to, and thiswas a man who was, you know, was
on house at the time.
Question as to whether or nothe would have even had access to
fentanyl if he hadn't been inthe Valley Street jail, right?
If if he had not had to gothrough that process, the impact
may have been that he wouldstill be alive today, right?
And so it's I I think theimpact can't be overstated.
(31:02):
The human impact oflegalization can't be
overstated.
Liz Canada (31:07):
I think about the musical that I love, Reef for
Madness.
It was uh it's based off of the1930s film, propaganda film
about Reaper Madness that waslike meant to terrify people to
be scared of marijuana.
Devon Chaffee (31:20):
I have seen the clips from that.
Liz Canada (31:21):
So it's a musical that's based on that movie.
It's a comedy.
They do a satire of that, whichwas all about scare tactics and
fear and making this aterrifying thing and making
groups of people really scary.
It feels a bit like how do Isay this?
I guess I could say it any wayI want to because I'm not
beholden to anyone with mylittle podcast.
(31:43):
But it feels like some of ourlawmakers are helping to
perpetuate some fear aboutpeople and about groups.
You know, we're recording thison September 22nd.
We are seeing in real time howpeople are being made into
villains, made into scary folks,and our lawmakers are
perpetuating that uh in thetypes of policies they're trying
(32:06):
to pass.
There's there's been a hugewave of anti-transgender hatred
in our state and in our statehouse and how people are,
speaking of transgender folks,there is a huge anti-immigrant
push in our state as well.
You're the ACLU.
You work on all of theseissues.
How do you see this fearpermeating in our state?
(32:26):
Is it just in my mind, in myalgorithm, am I seeing it on my
own, or is this a real thingthat is happening?
Devon Chaffee (32:34):
I mean, I think it's definitely a real thing
that is happening.
I think, you know, we areseeing we are seeing the use of
a punching down, right?
A punching down on some of themost vulnerable communities in
our state.
Those very, you know,relatively small immigrant
communities in the in the stateof New Hampshire, very small uh
(32:56):
populations of transgenderyouth, you know, very small and
very one of the most vulnerablepopulations in our state, right?
You know, you see theseridiculous mandatory minimums
being proposed for essentiallypeople who are simply addicted
to fentanyl that have beenproposed year after year in our
state, these vulnerablepopulations where politicians
(33:19):
are using fear as a politicalweapon and really punching down
against these vulnerablepopulations in our state, really
across the board.
And they've made a politicaldecision that that is how we're
gonna win elections.
And that was not the case.
In my experience, I've lived inNew Hampshire for 13 years now,
and that was not my experiencewhen I first moved to the state.
(33:41):
You know, there wasn't thissense that we can use hate and
fear as gonna main be our mainpolitical weapon.
And we there was a sense thatwe can come together to to have
protections for folks that arestruggling with drug addiction.
There was an understanding whenI first across political
parties that when it comes todrug addiction and drug use,
(34:05):
that we we should be looking atalternatives, right?
That it doesn't make sense tosimply jail folks.
There was an understanding thatthere was bipartisan support
for protections for for folksregardless of gender identity.
Um, when I first came to thisstate.
And I would say in the lastfive years, there there has been
a decision made that we aregoing to use fear and punching
(34:28):
down on particular vulnerablecommunities in this state as as
a political as a politicalmaneuver, and that this is how
folks think they're gonna winelections in the state.
And I think it's reallyunfortunate.
Liz Canada (34:40):
We have something, a policy that people care about
that is wildly popular, that isnot moved forward, that is sort
of stuck now for the foreseeablefuture.
And you have these otherpolicies that harm small groups
of people being just shoved downour throats, really.
Like it's just this constantattack on the most marginalized
(35:02):
communities in our state.
Devon Chaffee (35:03):
And instead of trying to come together on
policies that would be the bestfor our state and the best for
the people, everyday people inour state and their lives,
instead, we've decided now thatthe political advantageous thing
to do is to distract, right?
And to get people insteadfocused on these small and
vulnerable populations thataren't really affecting their
(35:25):
quality of life of the majorityof the population, but to try to
get them to believe that theyare and to stoke that fear.
Um, and so it's been a, Ithink, a really stark shift in
recent years in the state.
Liz Canada (35:38):
I would totally agree.
And a shocking shift in ourcountry as well, where it feels
like I can't believe every daythe different alerts that I get
of what's changing at thenational level and the attacks
on our freedom?
Liberty?
Voice?
(35:58):
What however we want to say it.
Do we still have the right tofree speech in our country?
Yes or no?
Devon Chaffee (36:04):
I think it is increasingly clear that the
right to free speech is under aheinous attack in this country.
I think we're seeing a rapidbacksliding of democratic
protections of free speech.
I it's you look at what's whatour national media outlets feel
that they the way that they canand cannot present information.
(36:25):
And you can you can feel, Ithink any normal reader can feel
like this doesn't feel likewhat is actually happening,
right, in our country.
And yeah, I think in recentincreasingly in recent months,
that has been the feeling thatwe are losing the ability, we
are losing the public square, ifyou will, not the literal
square, but this public squareof, you know, where we have
(36:48):
conversations, the public media,um, you know, internet the
conversations, broadcasting.
Like I just think the clear anddirect and brash attempts to
terrify folks into silence is isvery scary.
So I'm hearing a strong maybewe still have it.
(37:10):
We don't have any rights thatwe don't have to fight for every
step of the way, right?
So I think I think the answeris we we all better get
fighting, right?
These are not rights that wecan take for granted.
We've never been able to takethem for granted.
And surely in this climate, wecannot take them for granted.
So if we want to claw our wayback to having the ability to
(37:32):
communicate with one another andto express ourselves and to
express our opinions, we got toget on the front lines.
And that's that's certainly,you know, true for us at the
ACLU, but it's it's true for allof us.
Liz Canada (37:43):
All right.
Well, we'll fight for our firstamendment rights and then maybe
they'll move on to the second.
We'll keep it up for each oneas they just keep chipping away,
I guess.
We'll just we'll just work onthat.
How do you, the executivedirector of ACLU of New
Hampshire, how do you keep sanein these times?
How would you encourage alistener to deal with everything
that's happening?
Devon Chaffee (38:03):
Well, I find for me the best way to keep sane is
by figuring out what it is I cando, right?
And so I think I'm I'm actuallyreally lucky uh getting to work
at an organization like I workat with my teammates.
I am so lucky to be part ofsuch a talented and committed
team of folks.
And I feel like we allgenerally have a sense of what
(38:24):
our role is and what our laneis.
But there is a role for eachand every one of us, right?
Fighting for our rights,fighting to defend our
democracy, that is everyone'sjob.
And I think there is a role forus all to play.
And you don't have to play allof the roles, but you can figure
out what is the way in whichyou can plug in.
(38:45):
Is it by attending my localschool board and influencing
policy at that level?
Is it by, you know, organizingrallies in your hometown?
Is it by making frequent andpersistent calls to your state
legislators because you knowthat they are targets?
Or also thanking your statelegislators who are doing the
right thing.
Right.
Um, what are you know, maybebringing them some flowers when
(39:07):
they're because they don't get alot of that, by the way, when
they do do the right thing.
What are the different ways?
There are so many differentways to getting involved right
now and to to bring folkstogether, right?
You can you can have houseparties, you can you can talk to
people, you can connect withpeople, because I don't believe
that this fear-mongeringrepresents the opinion of the
(39:30):
majority of granite staters.
I don't believe that that'swhere we are as a state.
When I go around to talk topeople, even people who have
political different politicalviews than I do.
And I must I have found myselfa soccer mom.
I've got 11-year-old twins,they're out there playing.
Sometimes I can tell themapart.
Sometimes it's a challenge.
I'm gonna be honest.
(39:50):
Yeah.
But I, you know, I'm I'm outthere, I'm I'm having
conversations with folks.
They they don't all have sharemy political beliefs.
It's such, and it's such anopportunity to get to know
folks, you know, did who aredifferent from myself.
Right.
But I don't believe that theygo home at night and think, I
really want immigrants in Nashuato suffer, right?
I don't think that they, Idon't think that this is really
(40:12):
what what they are concernedabout or motivated most by.
They want the best shot atbeing able to support their kids
and to be able to support theirfamilies and to be prosperous
in this state.
And that's what they careabout.
And so, how, you know, the morethat we we talk to folks and we
(40:33):
mobilize folks, you know, Ithink that it's this is c
clearly a fight worth fightingfor in the state of New
Hampshire.
Um, because I don't think thatthis is where the majority of
the state is.
Liz Canada (40:44):
Yeah.
The folks who are immigrants inour state are not right keeping
our costs up, are not takingaway anything from us.
The transgender youth aren'traising our costs, but you know
what would help with our statefinances is legalizing marijuana
to bring in some money to ourstate.
Devon Chaffee (41:02):
It's been incredibly frustrating for
reasons why I think you're likesort of literally and
figuratively pulling your hairout as we've been having this
conversation, Liz.
Um I have less hair at the endof this episode, yeah, for sure.
You know, it makes so muchsense for the state of New
Hampshire in particular that wewould legalize marijuana,
revenue reasons, justicereasons, public opinion reasons,
(41:26):
just the general state ethos.
Um, and so the frustration hasjust been, you know, it's been
significant.
And it was very, verychallenging in 2024 when we came
so close, so very, very close.
And I will tell you, we weremaking phone calls, you know, we
have 400 reps, you know, andand and uh, you know, make
(41:49):
really trying to to get to to toget folks on board and come to
an agreement.
And it's been it's been anincredibly frustrating,
frustrating ride.
And you know, we'll we'll getit done.
We'll get it done.
But it's gonna, it's gonna be along road, unfortunately, now,
I think.
Liz Canada (42:07):
Devin, thank you so much.
This was really great.
Thank you so much for talkingwith me.
Devon Chaffee (42:12):
Oh, thank you so much, Liz, for having me on and
thank you for doing thispodcast.
I think these are conversationsthat really need to happen in
our state, and I'm so glad thatyou're helping to lead them.
Liz Canada (42:23):
I'm happy to send them off into the world to the
74% of Granite Staters whosupport marijuana legalization
and the others who areapparently are lawmakers.
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