October 24, 2025 • 44 mins
What if recovery isn’t about gripping harder, but about becoming someone new? Greg Vorst and Michael Nolan, co-founders of Embodied Recovery, join us to reframe suffering as a portal to soul growth and show how accountability and honesty can reset a life. Their message doesn’t romanticize pain; it transforms it. By shifting from abstinence-only goals to embodied practices, they reveal a path where peace, purpose, and joy are the outcome of daily choices lived in the body.
We dig into practical markers that you’re out of accountability — like chronic blame and a life that keeps misfiring, and how to welcome structures that put you back in the driver’s seat. Greg and Michael offer a plainspoken take on rigorous honesty as a health practice, not a slogan. They also bring nuance to shame: rather than dismiss it entirely, they treat it as a signal that invites realignment and reconnection. The payoff is fewer secrets, less energy wasted on hiding, and more capacity to meet life head on.
Trauma and addiction reshape the nervous system, and that’s where their work shines. We explore Kuksundo, a Korean breath and movement practice that trains parasympathetic tone, widens your window of tolerance, and helps you feel safe from the inside out. When the body remembers calm, therapy lands deeper, cravings loosen, and your day is no longer run by fight, flight, or freeze. Recovery stops being a binder of coping skills and become
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Hi friends, welcome to the new normal, Big Life Podcast! We bring you natural news and stories about nature that we hope will inspire you to get outside and adventure, along with a step-by-step plan to help you practice what you’ve learned and create your own new normal and live the biggest life you can dream. I’m your host, Antoinette Lee, the Wellness Warrior.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_04 (00:00):
Then I would hear, you know, that that that those
do not recover, that those whodo not recover are those that
are constitutionally incapableof being honest with themselves.
And I thought, that's me.
That's why I'm not getting it,because I'm just incapable.
I was made this way and I can'tget it.
But the the reality was that Iwas unwilling to be held
accountable.
I was unwilling to step into thering and say, I need to take
(00:22):
some action in the directionthat I'm wanting to move in.
I was just hoping that somethingoutside would come into me,
possess me, and and make my lifeinto what I wanted it to be,
right?
So that living out ofaccountability requires some
degree of willingness to be heldaccountable in the first place.
SPEAKER_03 (00:39):
Yeah, and I would say part two, maybe to add to
that, is just if you notice thatyou're blaming a lot of people,
so if you're holding a lot ofother people accountable for how
you're feeling, how you're doingin life, why you didn't get to
where you want to get, and soforth and so on, that's usually
a pretty good indicator thatthat you're not really owning
(01:00):
your part, that you're you'reyou're looking to others to be
responsible for what's workingor what's not working in your
life.
And that usually I'm not inaccountability when I'm doing
that.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
Hi friends, welcome to the New Normal Big Life
Podcast.
We bring you natural news andstories about nature that we
hope will inspire you to getoutside in adventure, along with
a step-by-step plan to help youpractice what you've learned and
create your own new normal andlive the biggest life you can
dream.
I'm your host, Antoinette Lee,the Wellness Warrior.
Greg Vorst and Michael Nolan,co-founders of Embodied
(01:34):
Recovery, are revolutionizingtrauma and addiction processing
and recovery by challengingconventional recovery and
treatment.
Their approach views sufferingnot as an endpoint, but as a
profound invitation to soulgrowth, blending psychology,
12-step principles, and a KoreanTaoist practice of breath work,
(01:56):
movement, and meditation thatcultivates inner peace, vital
energy, and alignment with life,uh natural flow, integrating
body, mind, and spirit forholistic healing and growth.
They empower individuals toreclaim purpose, peace, and joy
through honest self-reflectionand nervous system regulation.
(02:16):
Recovery shifts from abstinenceto embodied living.
Their empowered living teachingsoffer practical tools for trauma
healing and emotionalresilience, inspiring uh uh hope
amid life challenges.
Stick with us for atransformational message from
Vorst and Nolan.
(02:37):
Let's dive into today'srestorative topic with Greg
Vorst and Michael Nolan,co-founders of Embodied
Recovery.
Greg Vorston, Michael Nolan,welcome to New Normal Big Life.
SPEAKER_03 (02:48):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, thank you.
We're excited to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
You're the first duo I've had, so this is exciting.
SPEAKER_04 (02:56):
Yeah, well, this is not the first time we've heard
that.
So we never go alone.
No.
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
It's nice to have a buddy.
I can't so would each of youtake a moment to just tell us
what led you to this to thiskind of work.
SPEAKER_03 (03:11):
My God.
So I early life I was in theperforming arts and and I
enjoyed that quite quite a bit,but went through something of an
inner crisis in my my own needfor healing that made it harder
for me to stand up on stage andperform.
There was just a part of me thatneeded tending to, and I didn't
really know, I didn't know how Iwas going to do that for myself.
(03:33):
And then later it became aquestion of how can can I make
my livelihood in this this fieldof of helping and healing arts.
And at any rate, Michael and Imet about eight or nine years
ago, and we found ourselvesworking in a treatment program
together.
We were blessed by the grace ofGod that the program fell apart,
(03:54):
and Michael and I had to find aa way to carry on the work that
we were doing.
And out of that crisis wasreally born the mandate for
embodied recovery, and and someof maybe the shortcomings of the
programs that we worked forreally awakened in us the sense
of need that we had to dosomething vitalizing in this in
(04:14):
this treatment space.
And and so, and then my recoveryjourney has been one, I was a
spiritual aspirant, so I wasalive in that work, and I
continued to have these hugedips, like ups and downs.
And uh it wasn't really until Igot into recovery that a lot of
my spiritual searching sort ofdeepened and found some ground,
(04:36):
and my life really took on thetenor that it has in this last
decade or so.
SPEAKER_01 (04:40):
So well, those are really beautiful reasons to get
into this line of work.
SPEAKER_04 (04:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh and then I guess for me, I Igrew up the son of an NFL coach,
and so we moved around a lot,new places every few years.
And so it created this need tokind of really ingratiate myself
in a social group rather quicklywhile still knowing that I was
likely going to leave soon.
I found that drinking and usingwas a really nice, easy way to
(05:08):
connect with people insuperficial ways that didn't
make it hurt so much when we hadto leave again.
And then I found that I wasreally good at using.
I found that, you know, in somany areas in my life, I felt
like I wasn't a great student orI wasn't a great athlete, or I
wasn't, you know, kind of uhliving up to the expectations
that I had set for myself and inmy substance use, it it almost
(05:29):
felt like this was somethingthat made sense to me.
I had a mission and a purpose,and unfortunately, the
consequences of that was totaldestruction of my life.
Things did not go very well.
I didn't have the highs thatGreg had before the lows.
I kind of went down, stayeddown, and then remained down,
and you know, just experienced alot of difficulty, a lot of
consequences, but was fortunateenough to land in a treatment
(05:52):
center.
You know, I had been to four orfive different treatment
programs, but the one that Iwent to, I I I stayed at.
For whatever reason, there werejust a series of experiences
along the way where I felt okayenough to stay, I felt capable
enough to stay, I felt willingenough to stay.
And then after having a fewmonths of sobriety under my belt
(06:14):
and really taking responsibilityfor my recovery, it felt like
this was something that madesense to me.
I knew what it was like todestroy my life, and I was
getting excited about learningabout recovery, and I wanted to
learn more, and I wanted to putmyself in a position, like Greg
said, to be able to make aliving being of service and
helping others however I could.
(06:34):
And so that started my journeyin maybe 2010.
I got sober in 2008, 2007, andthen, you know, uh got
credentialed, started working asa counselor, and then like Greg
said, we we met eight or nineyears ago, you know, working at
a treatment program and just hadsome experiences where we
thought there's there's such a aneed for clinicians to explore
(07:01):
the ways in which they couldimplement the values and
principles of recovery intotheir own life in order to be
able to be of service to theclients that are coming in
saying that they need help.
And there are so manyclinicians, and and this isn't
to put anybody down, but justthat because they've they've got
their degree, that they're theexpert, that they're gonna fix
the person that's coming inthat's needing the help.
(07:23):
And we really found that ourlived experience of the
humility, the surrender, theaccountability that was
necessary for transforming ourown lives was what was enabling
us to show up in a supportiveway in the in the clients'
lives.
So, yeah, that that started thethe groundwork for what embodied
recovery was to become.
SPEAKER_01 (07:42):
Okay, you guys have already made me feel like I've
been to church.
I want to say hallelujah.
That's right, hallelujah.
Well, what an amazing journey.
I love when clinicians have had,although, you know, I'm sure you
you probably look back and say,well, I wish I didn't have to
have that journey, maybe.
But I love when clinicians havethat lived experience of the
(08:07):
people they seek to help.
You just connect to the issuesand the challenges so much more
deeply.
SPEAKER_04 (08:17):
It's, you know, it's it's been it's been an asset.
I'd say earlier in my career, itwas more of an asset than it is
now.
Yes, I can certainly understandthose low places, and yet what
we found to be more engaging andand inspires more connection in
the work is the application ofthe recovery.
So, you know, Greg doesn't havean experience in addiction, and
(08:40):
yet he's worked a solid programof recovery that allows him to
be able to be of service andreally help guide clients in
their recovery journeys.
And so the background doesn'tneed to be the same, the pain
doesn't need to be the same, butthere was enough of it to say, I
need to do something different.
And then starting from thatplace and really working a solid
program of recovery is what'sbeen so such an asset for us.
SPEAKER_01 (09:04):
Absolutely.
So, how do you help people tosee that suffering is a portal
to soul growth?
SPEAKER_03 (09:13):
Yeah, yeah, wow.
Uh what a what a rich question.
Well, I you know, going back tomy own journey, I was I was
plagued and beset by a number ofphysical challenges, and and I
really in my own path, I soughtall of these healers and various
medical clinicians and differentpeople, and I was giving money
(09:35):
this way, that way, and tryingthis thing and that thing and
that thing.
And and eventually I awakened tothis that that there was a there
was an illness in me and ayearning in me that was seeking
something more.
And ultimately that came throughmy connection with God.
And and and and that reallysoothed that part of me that was
so ill, that was so struggling.
(09:56):
And so, you know, if you were totell a client that's first
coming in the doors, you know,this diagnosis isn't really the
issue, they might go right backout the doors.
But but as somebody who'sshowing up to be of service to
them, I have that opportunity tomodel some of those loving
(10:17):
qualities, those things that Iwas seeking, that loving
presence that I needed when Iwas ill.
I get a chance to be a stand-infor that without telling them,
hey, the deeper issue is reallythis.
And then I can support them onthe way to develop some skills.
But but ultimately it's notabout skills.
Ultimately, that person is goingthrough a crisis that's
(10:40):
purposive and it's gonna lead tosome deeper connection and their
soul's journey with God or withhigher power or whatever you
want to call that, whateversomebody's comfortable naming
that.
There's a purpose on thatjourney, and and it's it's
really the soul's calling, it'san opportunity for that
individual.
SPEAKER_04 (11:01):
And so to speak to this notion of suffering being a
portal to transformation, and in12-step communities, they have
this notion of the gift ofdesperation.
And and so, which soundsstrange, why would desperation
be a gift?
But what happens in that placeof desperation is that I've I've
(11:23):
now said I'm willing to get outof my own way.
I know that I don't have all theanswers, I can't control
everything the way that I'vetried to for so many years.
My way isn't working, and so I'mwilling to surrender to
something else.
Now, in 12 steps, higher poweris is is a big part of that
surrender process, but just tosurrender to the structure of
(11:43):
AA, right?
Like I'm willing to go tomeetings, I'm willing to get a
sponsor, I'm willing to worksteps is is a huge step forward
in that journey.
And so what suffering offers isthis opportunity to reflect and
and consider that there might bea different way.
SPEAKER_01 (12:01):
So, what does it mean to recover?
Not just a life, but a sense ofpurpose and peace and joy.
That really resonates with mebecause after recovering from my
TBI, I was looking for purpose,peace, and joy.
SPEAKER_04 (12:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, you it's it's funsaying new normal big life,
right?
Like that, uh it's it's not likea new normal striving to get
back to what was.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_03 (12:30):
Uh and and yeah, go ahead.
Well, no, you're just making methink about so in the in the
treatment space, uh, the popularmodel kind of in Western
medicine is the the it's the sixstages of change.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And just speaking to the new,I'm going to connect this to the
new normal big life and thisnotion of peace.
It's it's pretty underwhelming,the six stages, because you go
(12:54):
through in this model, you gothrough pre-contemplation,
contemplation.
So these are all contemplativestages where you're not doing
anything, and then evenpreparation.
And then eventually you finallyget into action, which is the
fourth stage.
Fifth stage is just maintaining,maintaining, and then the sixth
stage, the most depressing, isrelapse.
(13:15):
And so what you know, what we'rereally talking about in our
recovery journey is one in whichwe would transform.
We would not just go back to theold and have it be a little bit
better.
So your big normal, your newnormal big life is a perfect
example of that.
And the gifts of that wouldwould not just be I'm just sort
(13:36):
of hanging on and maintaining,but that I'm transforming the
one that I am.
I'm growing into a new fullerexpension experience of my
being, and that's going tocontain things like peace and
well-being and radiant joy andand all of these things.
So I'm not just surviving theproblems from before with a new
(13:57):
skill set.
I'm being made new through thisprocess.
SPEAKER_04 (14:00):
And I'm embracing this new normal.
So I'm I'm really owning thatthis is my new normal rather
than continuing to fight againstthe past and being angry that
the past was what it was.
I'm saying that that the onlytime in which I'm able to do
something is right now.
And so, what is it that I wantfor tomorrow to become?
Do I want it to be another dayof anger and upset that
(14:23):
yesterday was like it was?
Or am I wanting tomorrow tooffer me something different?
And so, yeah, the recovery isthis magical experience that
people can have of taking suchwholehearted accountability for
what's in their capacity tochange and to make different.
And it's never externalcircumstances as much as it's my
(14:46):
relationship to thecircumstances that have been so
troubling.
And so my relationship to thosethings gets to evolve and change
and grow.
And that's what ends up changingmy personality, my character,
and the way that I show up inlife.
SPEAKER_01 (14:59):
Well, you before someone gets to that point,
let's say someone withaddiction, and I was just
working with someone thismorning who is helping a veteran
who's struggling with addiction,and they keep getting DUIs, and
then they get off, and then theyget another one, and we're all
brainstorming what what can wedo, say, propose to help this
(15:26):
person see that they need a newpath?
That that's before you hitfurther rock bottom, do
something different.
How do you get someone torealize that, dude, you're
already at rock bottom?
You know?
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:46):
That's right.
SPEAKER_04 (15:47):
Yeah, yeah.
You keep digging, you're gonnaend up on the other side of the
planet.
Yeah.
You know, they they say that uhyour bottom is only as deep as
when you decide to stop digging,right?
And for this individual, itseems like the the DUIs aren't
getting the message across,another DUI isn't getting the
message across, a whole bunch ofpeople telling them how much
(16:09):
that you know they're loved andand how much you all are are
worried about them isn'tnecessarily enough.
And so uh this isn't intended tobe a depressing message that
there is no right thing to say.
It's just at a certain point theindividual needs to check in
with themselves when is enoughgoing to be enough.
And we've had people that havehad, you know, their their fifth
(16:31):
DUI was when they said, okay,now it's enough.
I I worked with someone yearsago who, you know, had lost a
business, lost a relationship,relationships with his kids, and
yet one day he's smoking meth inhis car, burns his uh steering
wheel, and and that was like theeye-opener for him.
Like, oh my god, what am Isteering?
Steering wheels, right?
(16:51):
And like, I burnt my steeringwheel.
SPEAKER_03 (16:54):
So we worked with somebody else who died twice,
literally, medically, was waspronounced dead, came back to
life on the table.
Those things often don't end upbeing enough, sadly, in some
cases, because the power ofdenial is so strong.
There was an individual I knewwho actually had a very
(17:16):
promising acting career and wasdoing extraordinary things in
the world when he wasn't high onheroin.
And the doctors let him know hewas a a really accomplished
dancer too, and he made a lot ofmoney doing it.
They let him know that he wasthey were going to take his
legs.
They had to because the the tarand the heroin had burned
through all of his veins.
(17:37):
He didn't say, like, is there away that we can turn this
around?
Is there anything I can do?
He his question actually was,where would I put the needle
then?
And so that gives you someinsight into how how deep the
hole can go in terms of mydenial if I want to keep
digging.
(17:57):
And that's true for people, youknow, we're talking about this
in in addiction, but it's alsovery true for mental health.
We can we can go on that samejourney of denial, and those
forces of denial can keep usunaware of the basic things that
would preserve my health and mylife and so forth and so on, or
the DUIs, but but there's adeeper layer of denial, and
(18:19):
that's the denial even beneaththat, which is the denial of the
love of that presence or of Godthat's there.
And so sometimes the the DUIsand the drinking and the using
or my depression or and so forthand so on act as a shield that
keep me away from that love.
And and I might be so frightenedof that love that I'll hold on
(18:39):
to these other things as a meansof never returning to it.
SPEAKER_04 (18:44):
So it's almost like the the misery that I'm familiar
with is more comfortable thanthe unknown misery of change.
And I and I build up that miseryin my mind and say that it's
gonna be too much.
I'm not able to.
This dysfunction, at least I cantolerate because I know what's
coming and I know it probablywon't last long.
So I've resigned myself to that.
But again, it's just this reallypowerful mechanism of denial
(19:07):
that keeps me out ofaccountability for the change
that I could grow into.
I just say, well, I would, but Ican't.
Others could.
SPEAKER_01 (19:15):
Very powerful.
After this short break, we'lltalk about the importance of
honesty as a health practice.
SPEAKER_03 (19:24):
Yeah, that's a great topic.
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So, how does honesty withourselves and others become a
health practice?
SPEAKER_04 (20:30):
Well, yeah, well, I guess I just want to share one
of the things that was told tome when I first got into
treatment was that the owner ofthe program, Dr.
Barry Rosen, he was a wonderfulman.
He had this way of speakingtruth in a way that was really
cutting, but also could bereceived with love.
(20:52):
And so he said, Mike, you're nobetter than anyone else.
You're just a bottom-dwellingdope fiend and a pathological
liar.
And I thought, like, you know,it just like rocks me.
And I'm thinking, like, who isthis guy?
What a jerk.
I just met you like two daysago, and then this is what
you're putting on me.
And he said, if you want to getwell, you need to stop lying to
(21:12):
yourself and everybody else.
And so the next time you go to ameeting and introduce yourself,
I want you to say, My name isMike.
I'm an addict and a pathologicalliar.
And I thought, this guy's crazy,that's not going to do anything.
Why would I do that?
But again, it was just there wasenough willingness in me to try
it.
And so I got up at the nextmeeting, I said it, people
chuckled, I felt embarrassed,and I thought, I'm never doing
(21:34):
that again.
But what it did do was it got meto look at how dishonest I had
been and consider what would itbe like if I tried being, I I
had experienced the consequencesof my dishonesty over and over
and over again, and and itseemed like they just kept
piling up and getting worse andworse.
And if I'm honest, people mightnot like what I have to say, and
(21:55):
it might be uncomfortable anddifficult, but I know
uncomfortable and difficult.
And so let's just see if if thiscan work in my favor.
And if not, I can throw it inhis face and say, see, I told
you you were wrong, it didn't doanything.
But it it completely changed thetrajectory of my recovery
journey when I started takingaccountability of my choices in
(22:16):
real time and saying, look, Iknow I told you that I had a
salad for lunch, but really Ihad a burger, right?
Little things, not that big of adeal, right?
But I needed to start practicingrigorous honesty every day.
And when I did that, I I feltthis sense of comfort in my
existence in the world.
I didn't have to hide, I didn'thave to pretend, I didn't have
(22:38):
to manage and manipulaterelationships and what people
thought of me, but that I wasable to just rest in a degree of
peace, knowing that even if theydisagreed, even if they didn't
like it, even if it was achallenging truth that I had to
communicate, I was growing upthe capacity to deal with that
difference.
And that and that I was speakinga truth that wouldn't make me
(23:01):
have to, or put me in a positionto cover things up and to to to
keep on the manipulation andthen live out in hiding and and
continue leaning into thisdenial to keep me safe.
So uh for me it was it was agame changer.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:16):
Yeah, you know, I believe the soul craves
integrity.
Doing the right thing even whenno one's watching, even when no
one will know that you you'renot doing the right thing.
SPEAKER_04 (23:27):
Yeah.
That's so true, right?
That the soul craves integrity.
We can see what it's like whenpeople are are living in less
than authentic ways, when peopleare living out of integrity in
their relationships because itjust it looks exhausting.
People are tired and they'reoverwhelmed, and little things
can can get under their skin andfrustrate them to no end.
(23:50):
And so, but yeah, when I canlive in a place of integrity, I
feel a sense of of capacity,capability, self-efficacy as I
move through life.
I don't have all the answers,you know, like life still gets
difficult and life does what itdoes, but at least I know now
what I can do to take care ofmyself in the face of life,
(24:11):
getting lifey.
SPEAKER_03 (24:13):
Yeah.
I I would offer too, in myjourney, so I I also struggled a
lot with dishonesty, and therewere a lot of subtle ways.
And a lot of my dishonesty wasto shield me from the shame of
what was true.
And so you know, I would bedishonest about my finances or
dishonest about one thing oranother.
(24:35):
And part of my healing journeywas to really understand that
not all shame.
So in present culture, there'sthis tendency to want to say all
shame is bad.
And but but if I were shamelessand would do unconscionable
things, that wouldn't be good.
And so there's something reallyconstructive that can help me
(24:56):
have a right relationship withGod and with an authority in
life, if I can feel the presenceof shame when I'm out of
alignment.
And the way that I can feel thatpresence, which keeps me
connected to my higher power, tomy creator, is by owning when
I'm out of alignment.
But once I start this deceptiveprocess of hiding, of calling it
(25:17):
by another name, by prettying itup, by you know, doing all these
subtle ways, then then I'm nolonger in accountability.
And in the rooms, they that theysay to us, uh, we're as sick as
our secrets.
So we're as it we're as ill asour secrets, the things that we
harbor that we hide.
And and then, you know, once I'mout of accountability, if if
(25:40):
anybody's out there strugglingwith mental health or addiction,
if you're out of accountability,you're in the danger zone.
Red flag should be coming upeverywhere.
Because what's coming in thefuture is is likely going to be
a further iteration of what wasdamaging in the past.
You know, you're you're gonnaexperience greater and greater
consequences.
(26:00):
And so that accountabilityreally and that honesty really
helps me remain integrity andkeep that peace that we were
talking about earlier.
Uh I can feel peaceful even thatI screwed up, that I made a huge
mistake.
SPEAKER_04 (26:14):
Yeah, and there's something so cleansing about
being seen in the truth of theshame that I experienced for my
choice rather than hiding thechoice that I made to protect
from feeling ashamed.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:27):
How does one recognize when they're out of
accountability?
What are some tips if if they'renot familiar with this concept?
SPEAKER_04 (26:39):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
Well, I guess uh with thatquestion is the assumption that
I've at least opened myself upto be held accountable by some
authority, by some mentor orguide or friend or loved one to
say, look, these are the thingsthat I'm struggling with, these
are the things that I'm workingon.
If you see something, saysomething, right?
(27:00):
Like if if it looks to you likeaddiction is happening, trust
your gut and speak to it.
If it looks like I'm slidingback, please, you know, just let
me know.
Don't be afraid to tell me whatit is that you that you're
seeing.
But if if I haven't even hadthose conversations, if I'm just
imagining that I can figure itout on my own, right?
Or I did this for a long time.
(27:22):
I was going to to 12-stepmeetings and not doing anything
and sitting in the meetings andthinking, why isn't my life
changing yet?
I'm here.
Like, why is nothing changing?
And then I would hear, you know,that that that those do not
recover, that those who do notrecover are those that are
constitutionally incapable ofbeing honest with themselves.
And I thought, that's me.
(27:42):
That's why I'm not getting it,because I'm just incapable.
I was made this way and I can'tget it.
But the the reality was that Iwas unwilling to be held
accountable.
I was unwilling to step into thering and say, I need to take
some action in the directionthat I'm wanting to move in.
I was just hoping that somethingoutside would come into me,
possess me, and and make my lifeinto what I wanted it to be,
(28:05):
right?
So the living out ofaccountability requires some
degree of willingness to be heldaccountable in the first place.
SPEAKER_03 (28:12):
Yeah, and I would say part two, maybe to add to
that, is just if you notice thatyou're blaming a lot of people,
so if you're holding a lot ofother people accountable for how
you're feeling, how you're doingin life, why you didn't get to
where you want to get, and soforth and so on, that's usually
a pretty good indicator thatthat you're not really owning
(28:33):
your part, that you're you'reyou're looking to others to be
responsible for what's workingor what's not working in your
life.
And that usually I'm not inaccountability when I'm doing
that.
And then the other thing wouldbe you can just look at your
life and see if things areworking out.
You know, people who have a highdegree of accountability, they
(28:54):
do so because it's awesome.
It's like, you know, you youknow what what your day is gonna
feel like more or less.
You know there are certainthings you can count on in your
your inner experience and yourphysical experience and your
emotional and spiritualexperience because you're
accountable to those things.
So it you get to live in thefruits of that.
And so if your life isn'tworking, it's probably a and
(29:17):
you're blaming people, it's areally good sign that you have
some accountability issues.
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
Those are two really easily implementable tips that
people can start practicingtoday.
I love it.
So, how can nervous systemregulation change how we process
trauma and addiction?
SPEAKER_03 (29:33):
If if somebody has gone through a very traumatic
experience, and I think thiswould be true for a lot of
people who are mood altering anddoing substances, um, exp
especially the really extremeones, it's in all likelihood
their nervous system in is insuch a is is frayed in such a
way that it could be hard forthem to have much r capacity to
(29:58):
be relational with life.
So I can be easily overwhelmedby sensations, or conversely, I
could be frozen and out oftouch.
So if you think on like a reallysort of a uh two-polar sides,
there's kind of numb to life,which can be one setting of my
my nervous system, or flooded.
(30:19):
And when I'm flooded, I can'treally have I'm connected to the
experience, but it's it's sooverwhelming to me that I can't
do anything meaningful with it.
And if I'm numb, I'm tuned out.
So what I'm looking to reallyexperience is this middle
ground.
I'm looking to grow up thismiddle ground where I can have
enough centeredness and enoughpresence and enough regulation
(30:43):
within my nervous system that Ican be in touch with life but
not be overwhelmed by it.
So I'm in touch, but there's aspaciousness about it.
And it that takes time tocultivate that, and that's why
we do a practice each morning.
It's an ancient tradition fromKorea and it's called kuksundo,
and it's a lower diaphragmaticbreathing practice with also
(31:06):
some yoga and stretching andthings of that sort.
But what it helps an individualdo is it helps entrain their
nervous system to theparasympathetic relaxation
response.
So now, if if I was reallystrung out before, now my body
knows, okay, it's safe inside.
You can go into rest, digest,and you can start to even get
(31:27):
into alpha brain waves, whichmeans, oh, now I can see
possibilities.
And now I can use creativity onmy behalf, but I can feel a
degree of at easeness, which ifI am working on substance use,
or let's say I'm working ontrauma, part of my healing
process is going to be to touchsome of those places where there
(31:48):
was hurt.
And and now I can do it whereI'm anchored in such a way that
there's enough of a lovingpresence cultivated in me and
enough well-being in my nervoussystem that I can touch those
places without beingoverwhelmed.
And I can start to bringgoodness to those places.
And then for the addict, I Imight be for the first time, my
(32:11):
my whole orientation has beensomething outside me makes me
good.
Something outside me is gonnamake me feel okay.
Well, now what I'm starting totrain myself to experience is as
I do this practice, I make mefeel good.
The good is within, the good iswithin me, and moment by moment
I can practice that, and then Ican stretch that out throughout
(32:32):
my day so it covers my day.
And in time, when I becomestudied enough, it becomes a way
of being, it becomes the new setfor my nervous system.
SPEAKER_04 (32:41):
So the practice allows me to create a space
within myself where there'sthere's such a comfortable home
base, right?
And and so if I'm in that stateof fight or flight and my
nervous system is just so kindof hotwired by life, it's gonna
be really hard for me to facesome of these traumatic
(33:03):
experiences of the past or thesedifficult relationships or uh
work on the things that I wantto because it's it's it's like
an open wound that's sosensitive that that it doesn't
have enough protection to healto begin to kind of work on.
And so what the sorry, what thewhat the breath work practice
allows is for me to to cultivatethis place of solidity and
(33:27):
grounding and safeness withinmyself so that when I when I do
begin to go back to some ofthese hurts from the past, I I
know where that safety withinself resides.
Right.
And so uh and a popular practicethese days is something like
EMDR, where you know it's usingdifferent techniques to
reprocess trauma, but a big partof that is creating that
(33:50):
experience of safety within selfbefore I go back.
And so what the sundo practiceis, is is that on a daily,
consistent basis, I've made itinto a practice.
So now I don't have to go to anEMDR session to experience some
relaxation, but my day is isgrounded in that sense of peace.
SPEAKER_01 (34:12):
Those were two great nervous system regulation
techniques.
I love it.
Before we cover the next topicin this episode, I want to
introduce you to the adventuresports lifestyle with what I
call a micro story about anadventure that I've had.
The adventure sports lifestyleand my deep connection to nature
is essential to my good health.
So here's the story.
(34:33):
When I go on an adventure likearchery fishing or kayaking, I'm
moving my body in rhythm with mybreath and working in harmony
with the natural world, likereading and running the river,
for example.
An adventure sports lifestyleleveled up my good mental and
physical health.
I did that.
I hope this inspires you to getoutside and adventure alone with
(34:56):
friends or with the people youlove most.
Now, back to the show wherewe're talking with Greg Forst
and Michael Nolan about recoveryhappening in the body, not just
in your head.
So, what does it mean to liverecovery in the body, not just
in the head?
SPEAKER_04 (35:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's great.
I guess with an idea like that,what comes to my mind is that
there are so many treatmentprograms.
There's a ton of resources.
If there are people that are outthere in your audience that are
struggling with mental healthand addiction, there there are
resources, there are people outthere that are willing to
support you.
And in our experience, workingat many of these programs, they
(35:35):
had good curriculum, they hadgood psychoeducational materials
and worksheets and you know, uhlists of skills that people can
implement.
What we found though was that itwas almost like now that you're
done with treatment, take yourbinder of skills with you
through life and don't forget toopen to the right page when life
gets difficult.
And that could certainly work,but our sense was that we wanted
(35:59):
people to begin putting thesethings into practice
consistently every day so thattheir experience of life shifts
rather than my experience oflife is the same and I just need
to remember the right skill.
And so when when I can begin toengage in a practice like sundo
or engage in a practice likerigorous honesty, then I'm
(36:22):
shifting my relationship to lifein such a way that I am now
living out the values andprinciples of recovery and more
in alignment with my own values,that I want to be respectable, I
want to be honest, I want to bea person of integrity, I want to
be compassionate andunderstanding.
But when I'm living in such anexternally focused way, what
ends up happening is I'm tryingto live for what I imagine other
(36:45):
people want from me, and then Igo completely off-scene, I'm no
longer in the relationships thatI say are so meaningful to me,
right?
And so living out recovery orembodying recovery would look
like putting these recoverypractices or these recovery
skills into practice on a dailybasis so that they just become
(37:05):
normal for me.
SPEAKER_03 (37:06):
Also, if we're speaking about on the level of
the body, then then our our feltexperience of living in our body
becomes more easeful.
So, you know, prior to doing apractice like Sundo, many of us
are very constricted in ourbreathing and our way of being.
So our life force has may mayhave been hampered or shut down.
(37:29):
But when when we do this kind ofinner work, we're we're
retooling our psyche, and thathas a really powerful effect on
our lived experience in ourbody.
So it just feels better to be meeach and every day when I
practice these things.
And then that really becomes away of being.
It's not like Mike was saying,we're moving away from just a
(37:51):
skill set that I want to do whena crisis occurs into a way of
being such that really myrecovery r touches my character,
it touches my identity, and itjust like it's it's changing me
psychologically, it's changingme physically.
And the way that my nervoussystem operates, my in-touchness
(38:13):
with all the feelings and thefelt sense of my body, all of
that becomes awakened and weexperience more aliveness.
It's a truly vibrant state to beliving in my integrity and from
a place of of recovery, and thebody really likes it.
SPEAKER_01 (38:29):
So, how can listeners find a practitioner in
their area or connect with youfor the Empower it Living
Teachings?
SPEAKER_04 (38:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So they can find us online.
Our website isembodiedrecovery.com, and then
we also have a nonprofitorganization that we created a
few years ago called Malos.
So that's uh M as in MaryE-L-O-S, and then the website is
meloscenter.org.
And through the nonprofit,people can tune into our
teachings that we do on the lastFriday of every or um the last
(39:02):
Wednesday of every month.
So we do those in person here inCampbell at the treatment space.
But if people aren't in thearea, they can join us on Zoom.
And then the the Sundal practiceas well, there's some avenues
for people to join us for thepractice.
We have smartphone app, theembodied recovery app that
people can check out.
It's got a you know a recoverytracker and some of our content
(39:23):
that we've created and meetingfinders, a lot of different
things in the app.
But we're certainly accessible.
People can find us onlinethrough embodiedrecovery.com or
malocenter.org.
SPEAKER_03 (39:32):
And then just a couple other things I would add
into that is uh we do a Mondaynight dance event, Elixir Dance,
that we host as well.
And then podcasts like these,but also our Empowered Living
Teaching Series are allavailable via podcast on the
website.
And then in the weeks to come,it might be as much as a month
out, so maybe when this isreleased somewhere down the
(39:55):
road, we're also gonna have anintroductory video available
online for Sundo.
And so for those of thelisteners out there that might
be wanting to find a way toenhance their nervous system,
their experience being in thebody, this could be a real
resource.
SPEAKER_04 (40:10):
Oh, and then anybody that's in this area in October,
we're uh we're having uh Sundomaster Jin Mok fly in from
Korea.
He's gonna be hosting a four-dayworkshop early October.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:22):
Wow, that sounds so incredible.
And all of the links will be inthe show description.
Thank you so much for joining metoday on New Normal Big Life.
SPEAKER_03 (40:32):
Oh, thank you so much.
This was a real delight.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:36):
Until next time, friends, I'm Antoinette Lee,
your wellness warrior here atthe New Normal Big Life Podcast.
I hope one day to see you on theriver, in the backcountry, or in
the horse vine living your bestlife.
Struggling with health problemsor seeking natural health
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Don't miss our latest podcastepisodes, exclusive blog posts,
(40:58):
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Then I would hear, you know, that that that those
do not recover, that those whodo not recover are those that
are constitutionally incapableof being honest with themselves.
And I thought, that's me.
That's why I'm not getting it,because I'm just incapable.
I was made this way and I can'tget it.
But the the reality was that Iwas unwilling to be held
accountable.
I was unwilling to step into thering and say, I need to take
(00:22):
some action in the directionthat I'm wanting to move in.
I was just hoping that somethingoutside would come into me,
possess me, and and make my lifeinto what I wanted it to be,
right?
So that living out ofaccountability requires some
degree of willingness to be heldaccountable in the first place.
SPEAKER_03 (00:39):
Yeah, and I would say part two, maybe to add to
that, is just if you notice thatyou're blaming a lot of people,
so if you're holding a lot ofother people accountable for how
you're feeling, how you're doingin life, why you didn't get to
where you want to get, and soforth and so on, that's usually
a pretty good indicator thatthat you're not really owning
(01:00):
your part, that you're you'reyou're looking to others to be
responsible for what's workingor what's not working in your
life.
And that usually I'm not inaccountability when I'm doing
that.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
Hi friends, welcome to the New Normal Big Life
Podcast.
We bring you natural news andstories about nature that we
hope will inspire you to getoutside in adventure, along with
a step-by-step plan to help youpractice what you've learned and
create your own new normal andlive the biggest life you can
dream.
I'm your host, Antoinette Lee,the Wellness Warrior.
Greg Vorst and Michael Nolan,co-founders of Embodied
(01:34):
Recovery, are revolutionizingtrauma and addiction processing
and recovery by challengingconventional recovery and
treatment.
Their approach views sufferingnot as an endpoint, but as a
profound invitation to soulgrowth, blending psychology,
12-step principles, and a KoreanTaoist practice of breath work,
(01:56):
movement, and meditation thatcultivates inner peace, vital
energy, and alignment with life,uh natural flow, integrating
body, mind, and spirit forholistic healing and growth.
They empower individuals toreclaim purpose, peace, and joy
through honest self-reflectionand nervous system regulation.
(02:16):
Recovery shifts from abstinenceto embodied living.
Their empowered living teachingsoffer practical tools for trauma
healing and emotionalresilience, inspiring uh uh hope
amid life challenges.
Stick with us for atransformational message from
Vorst and Nolan.
(02:37):
Let's dive into today'srestorative topic with Greg
Vorst and Michael Nolan,co-founders of Embodied
Recovery.
Greg Vorston, Michael Nolan,welcome to New Normal Big Life.
SPEAKER_03 (02:48):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, thank you.
We're excited to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
You're the first duo I've had, so this is exciting.
SPEAKER_04 (02:56):
Yeah, well, this is not the first time we've heard
that.
So we never go alone.
No.
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
It's nice to have a buddy.
I can't so would each of youtake a moment to just tell us
what led you to this to thiskind of work.
SPEAKER_03 (03:11):
My God.
So I early life I was in theperforming arts and and I
enjoyed that quite quite a bit,but went through something of an
inner crisis in my my own needfor healing that made it harder
for me to stand up on stage andperform.
There was just a part of me thatneeded tending to, and I didn't
really know, I didn't know how Iwas going to do that for myself.
(03:33):
And then later it became aquestion of how can can I make
my livelihood in this this fieldof of helping and healing arts.
And at any rate, Michael and Imet about eight or nine years
ago, and we found ourselvesworking in a treatment program
together.
We were blessed by the grace ofGod that the program fell apart,
(03:54):
and Michael and I had to find aa way to carry on the work that
we were doing.
And out of that crisis wasreally born the mandate for
embodied recovery, and and someof maybe the shortcomings of the
programs that we worked forreally awakened in us the sense
of need that we had to dosomething vitalizing in this in
(04:14):
this treatment space.
And and so, and then my recoveryjourney has been one, I was a
spiritual aspirant, so I wasalive in that work, and I
continued to have these hugedips, like ups and downs.
And uh it wasn't really until Igot into recovery that a lot of
my spiritual searching sort ofdeepened and found some ground,
(04:36):
and my life really took on thetenor that it has in this last
decade or so.
SPEAKER_01 (04:40):
So well, those are really beautiful reasons to get
into this line of work.
SPEAKER_04 (04:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh and then I guess for me, I Igrew up the son of an NFL coach,
and so we moved around a lot,new places every few years.
And so it created this need tokind of really ingratiate myself
in a social group rather quicklywhile still knowing that I was
likely going to leave soon.
I found that drinking and usingwas a really nice, easy way to
(05:08):
connect with people insuperficial ways that didn't
make it hurt so much when we hadto leave again.
And then I found that I wasreally good at using.
I found that, you know, in somany areas in my life, I felt
like I wasn't a great student orI wasn't a great athlete, or I
wasn't, you know, kind of uhliving up to the expectations
that I had set for myself and inmy substance use, it it almost
(05:29):
felt like this was somethingthat made sense to me.
I had a mission and a purpose,and unfortunately, the
consequences of that was totaldestruction of my life.
Things did not go very well.
I didn't have the highs thatGreg had before the lows.
I kind of went down, stayeddown, and then remained down,
and you know, just experienced alot of difficulty, a lot of
consequences, but was fortunateenough to land in a treatment
(05:52):
center.
You know, I had been to four orfive different treatment
programs, but the one that Iwent to, I I I stayed at.
For whatever reason, there werejust a series of experiences
along the way where I felt okayenough to stay, I felt capable
enough to stay, I felt willingenough to stay.
And then after having a fewmonths of sobriety under my belt
(06:14):
and really taking responsibilityfor my recovery, it felt like
this was something that madesense to me.
I knew what it was like todestroy my life, and I was
getting excited about learningabout recovery, and I wanted to
learn more, and I wanted to putmyself in a position, like Greg
said, to be able to make aliving being of service and
helping others however I could.
(06:34):
And so that started my journeyin maybe 2010.
I got sober in 2008, 2007, andthen, you know, uh got
credentialed, started working asa counselor, and then like Greg
said, we we met eight or nineyears ago, you know, working at
a treatment program and just hadsome experiences where we
thought there's there's such a aneed for clinicians to explore
(07:01):
the ways in which they couldimplement the values and
principles of recovery intotheir own life in order to be
able to be of service to theclients that are coming in
saying that they need help.
And there are so manyclinicians, and and this isn't
to put anybody down, but justthat because they've they've got
their degree, that they're theexpert, that they're gonna fix
the person that's coming inthat's needing the help.
(07:23):
And we really found that ourlived experience of the
humility, the surrender, theaccountability that was
necessary for transforming ourown lives was what was enabling
us to show up in a supportiveway in the in the clients'
lives.
So, yeah, that that started thethe groundwork for what embodied
recovery was to become.
SPEAKER_01 (07:42):
Okay, you guys have already made me feel like I've
been to church.
I want to say hallelujah.
That's right, hallelujah.
Well, what an amazing journey.
I love when clinicians have had,although, you know, I'm sure you
you probably look back and say,well, I wish I didn't have to
have that journey, maybe.
But I love when clinicians havethat lived experience of the
(08:07):
people they seek to help.
You just connect to the issuesand the challenges so much more
deeply.
SPEAKER_04 (08:17):
It's, you know, it's it's been it's been an asset.
I'd say earlier in my career, itwas more of an asset than it is
now.
Yes, I can certainly understandthose low places, and yet what
we found to be more engaging andand inspires more connection in
the work is the application ofthe recovery.
So, you know, Greg doesn't havean experience in addiction, and
(08:40):
yet he's worked a solid programof recovery that allows him to
be able to be of service andreally help guide clients in
their recovery journeys.
And so the background doesn'tneed to be the same, the pain
doesn't need to be the same, butthere was enough of it to say, I
need to do something different.
And then starting from thatplace and really working a solid
program of recovery is what'sbeen so such an asset for us.
SPEAKER_01 (09:04):
Absolutely.
So, how do you help people tosee that suffering is a portal
to soul growth?
SPEAKER_03 (09:13):
Yeah, yeah, wow.
Uh what a what a rich question.
Well, I you know, going back tomy own journey, I was I was
plagued and beset by a number ofphysical challenges, and and I
really in my own path, I soughtall of these healers and various
medical clinicians and differentpeople, and I was giving money
(09:35):
this way, that way, and tryingthis thing and that thing and
that thing.
And and eventually I awakened tothis that that there was a there
was an illness in me and ayearning in me that was seeking
something more.
And ultimately that came throughmy connection with God.
And and and and that reallysoothed that part of me that was
so ill, that was so struggling.
(09:56):
And so, you know, if you were totell a client that's first
coming in the doors, you know,this diagnosis isn't really the
issue, they might go right backout the doors.
But but as somebody who'sshowing up to be of service to
them, I have that opportunity tomodel some of those loving
(10:17):
qualities, those things that Iwas seeking, that loving
presence that I needed when Iwas ill.
I get a chance to be a stand-infor that without telling them,
hey, the deeper issue is reallythis.
And then I can support them onthe way to develop some skills.
But but ultimately it's notabout skills.
Ultimately, that person is goingthrough a crisis that's
(10:40):
purposive and it's gonna lead tosome deeper connection and their
soul's journey with God or withhigher power or whatever you
want to call that, whateversomebody's comfortable naming
that.
There's a purpose on thatjourney, and and it's it's
really the soul's calling, it'san opportunity for that
individual.
SPEAKER_04 (11:01):
And so to speak to this notion of suffering being a
portal to transformation, and in12-step communities, they have
this notion of the gift ofdesperation.
And and so, which soundsstrange, why would desperation
be a gift?
But what happens in that placeof desperation is that I've I've
(11:23):
now said I'm willing to get outof my own way.
I know that I don't have all theanswers, I can't control
everything the way that I'vetried to for so many years.
My way isn't working, and so I'mwilling to surrender to
something else.
Now, in 12 steps, higher poweris is is a big part of that
surrender process, but just tosurrender to the structure of
(11:43):
AA, right?
Like I'm willing to go tomeetings, I'm willing to get a
sponsor, I'm willing to worksteps is is a huge step forward
in that journey.
And so what suffering offers isthis opportunity to reflect and
and consider that there might bea different way.
SPEAKER_01 (12:01):
So, what does it mean to recover?
Not just a life, but a sense ofpurpose and peace and joy.
That really resonates with mebecause after recovering from my
TBI, I was looking for purpose,peace, and joy.
SPEAKER_04 (12:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, you it's it's funsaying new normal big life,
right?
Like that, uh it's it's not likea new normal striving to get
back to what was.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_03 (12:30):
Uh and and yeah, go ahead.
Well, no, you're just making methink about so in the in the
treatment space, uh, the popularmodel kind of in Western
medicine is the the it's the sixstages of change.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And just speaking to the new,I'm going to connect this to the
new normal big life and thisnotion of peace.
It's it's pretty underwhelming,the six stages, because you go
(12:54):
through in this model, you gothrough pre-contemplation,
contemplation.
So these are all contemplativestages where you're not doing
anything, and then evenpreparation.
And then eventually you finallyget into action, which is the
fourth stage.
Fifth stage is just maintaining,maintaining, and then the sixth
stage, the most depressing, isrelapse.
(13:15):
And so what you know, what we'rereally talking about in our
recovery journey is one in whichwe would transform.
We would not just go back to theold and have it be a little bit
better.
So your big normal, your newnormal big life is a perfect
example of that.
And the gifts of that wouldwould not just be I'm just sort
(13:36):
of hanging on and maintaining,but that I'm transforming the
one that I am.
I'm growing into a new fullerexpension experience of my
being, and that's going tocontain things like peace and
well-being and radiant joy andand all of these things.
So I'm not just surviving theproblems from before with a new
(13:57):
skill set.
I'm being made new through thisprocess.
SPEAKER_04 (14:00):
And I'm embracing this new normal.
So I'm I'm really owning thatthis is my new normal rather
than continuing to fight againstthe past and being angry that
the past was what it was.
I'm saying that that the onlytime in which I'm able to do
something is right now.
And so, what is it that I wantfor tomorrow to become?
Do I want it to be another dayof anger and upset that
(14:23):
yesterday was like it was?
Or am I wanting tomorrow tooffer me something different?
And so, yeah, the recovery isthis magical experience that
people can have of taking suchwholehearted accountability for
what's in their capacity tochange and to make different.
And it's never externalcircumstances as much as it's my
(14:46):
relationship to thecircumstances that have been so
troubling.
And so my relationship to thosethings gets to evolve and change
and grow.
And that's what ends up changingmy personality, my character,
and the way that I show up inlife.
SPEAKER_01 (14:59):
Well, you before someone gets to that point,
let's say someone withaddiction, and I was just
working with someone thismorning who is helping a veteran
who's struggling with addiction,and they keep getting DUIs, and
then they get off, and then theyget another one, and we're all
brainstorming what what can wedo, say, propose to help this
(15:26):
person see that they need a newpath?
That that's before you hitfurther rock bottom, do
something different.
How do you get someone torealize that, dude, you're
already at rock bottom?
You know?
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:46):
That's right.
SPEAKER_04 (15:47):
Yeah, yeah.
You keep digging, you're gonnaend up on the other side of the
planet.
Yeah.
You know, they they say that uhyour bottom is only as deep as
when you decide to stop digging,right?
And for this individual, itseems like the the DUIs aren't
getting the message across,another DUI isn't getting the
message across, a whole bunch ofpeople telling them how much
(16:09):
that you know they're loved andand how much you all are are
worried about them isn'tnecessarily enough.
And so uh this isn't intended tobe a depressing message that
there is no right thing to say.
It's just at a certain point theindividual needs to check in
with themselves when is enoughgoing to be enough.
And we've had people that havehad, you know, their their fifth
(16:31):
DUI was when they said, okay,now it's enough.
I I worked with someone yearsago who, you know, had lost a
business, lost a relationship,relationships with his kids, and
yet one day he's smoking meth inhis car, burns his uh steering
wheel, and and that was like theeye-opener for him.
Like, oh my god, what am Isteering?
Steering wheels, right?
(16:51):
And like, I burnt my steeringwheel.
SPEAKER_03 (16:54):
So we worked with somebody else who died twice,
literally, medically, was waspronounced dead, came back to
life on the table.
Those things often don't end upbeing enough, sadly, in some
cases, because the power ofdenial is so strong.
There was an individual I knewwho actually had a very
(17:16):
promising acting career and wasdoing extraordinary things in
the world when he wasn't high onheroin.
And the doctors let him know hewas a a really accomplished
dancer too, and he made a lot ofmoney doing it.
They let him know that he wasthey were going to take his
legs.
They had to because the the tarand the heroin had burned
through all of his veins.
(17:37):
He didn't say, like, is there away that we can turn this
around?
Is there anything I can do?
He his question actually was,where would I put the needle
then?
And so that gives you someinsight into how how deep the
hole can go in terms of mydenial if I want to keep
digging.
(17:57):
And that's true for people, youknow, we're talking about this
in in addiction, but it's alsovery true for mental health.
We can we can go on that samejourney of denial, and those
forces of denial can keep usunaware of the basic things that
would preserve my health and mylife and so forth and so on, or
the DUIs, but but there's adeeper layer of denial, and
(18:19):
that's the denial even beneaththat, which is the denial of the
love of that presence or of Godthat's there.
And so sometimes the the DUIsand the drinking and the using
or my depression or and so forthand so on act as a shield that
keep me away from that love.
And and I might be so frightenedof that love that I'll hold on
(18:39):
to these other things as a meansof never returning to it.
SPEAKER_04 (18:44):
So it's almost like the the misery that I'm familiar
with is more comfortable thanthe unknown misery of change.
And I and I build up that miseryin my mind and say that it's
gonna be too much.
I'm not able to.
This dysfunction, at least I cantolerate because I know what's
coming and I know it probablywon't last long.
So I've resigned myself to that.
But again, it's just this reallypowerful mechanism of denial
(19:07):
that keeps me out ofaccountability for the change
that I could grow into.
I just say, well, I would, but Ican't.
Others could.
SPEAKER_01 (19:15):
Very powerful.
After this short break, we'lltalk about the importance of
honesty as a health practice.
SPEAKER_03 (19:24):
Yeah, that's a great topic.
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So, how does honesty withourselves and others become a
health practice?
SPEAKER_04 (20:30):
Well, yeah, well, I guess I just want to share one
of the things that was told tome when I first got into
treatment was that the owner ofthe program, Dr.
Barry Rosen, he was a wonderfulman.
He had this way of speakingtruth in a way that was really
cutting, but also could bereceived with love.
(20:52):
And so he said, Mike, you're nobetter than anyone else.
You're just a bottom-dwellingdope fiend and a pathological
liar.
And I thought, like, you know,it just like rocks me.
And I'm thinking, like, who isthis guy?
What a jerk.
I just met you like two daysago, and then this is what
you're putting on me.
And he said, if you want to getwell, you need to stop lying to
(21:12):
yourself and everybody else.
And so the next time you go to ameeting and introduce yourself,
I want you to say, My name isMike.
I'm an addict and a pathologicalliar.
And I thought, this guy's crazy,that's not going to do anything.
Why would I do that?
But again, it was just there wasenough willingness in me to try
it.
And so I got up at the nextmeeting, I said it, people
chuckled, I felt embarrassed,and I thought, I'm never doing
(21:34):
that again.
But what it did do was it got meto look at how dishonest I had
been and consider what would itbe like if I tried being, I I
had experienced the consequencesof my dishonesty over and over
and over again, and and itseemed like they just kept
piling up and getting worse andworse.
And if I'm honest, people mightnot like what I have to say, and
(21:55):
it might be uncomfortable anddifficult, but I know
uncomfortable and difficult.
And so let's just see if if thiscan work in my favor.
And if not, I can throw it inhis face and say, see, I told
you you were wrong, it didn't doanything.
But it it completely changed thetrajectory of my recovery
journey when I started takingaccountability of my choices in
(22:16):
real time and saying, look, Iknow I told you that I had a
salad for lunch, but really Ihad a burger, right?
Little things, not that big of adeal, right?
But I needed to start practicingrigorous honesty every day.
And when I did that, I I feltthis sense of comfort in my
existence in the world.
I didn't have to hide, I didn'thave to pretend, I didn't have
(22:38):
to manage and manipulaterelationships and what people
thought of me, but that I wasable to just rest in a degree of
peace, knowing that even if theydisagreed, even if they didn't
like it, even if it was achallenging truth that I had to
communicate, I was growing upthe capacity to deal with that
difference.
And that and that I was speakinga truth that wouldn't make me
(23:01):
have to, or put me in a positionto cover things up and to to to
keep on the manipulation andthen live out in hiding and and
continue leaning into thisdenial to keep me safe.
So uh for me it was it was agame changer.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:16):
Yeah, you know, I believe the soul craves
integrity.
Doing the right thing even whenno one's watching, even when no
one will know that you you'renot doing the right thing.
SPEAKER_04 (23:27):
Yeah.
That's so true, right?
That the soul craves integrity.
We can see what it's like whenpeople are are living in less
than authentic ways, when peopleare living out of integrity in
their relationships because itjust it looks exhausting.
People are tired and they'reoverwhelmed, and little things
can can get under their skin andfrustrate them to no end.
(23:50):
And so, but yeah, when I canlive in a place of integrity, I
feel a sense of of capacity,capability, self-efficacy as I
move through life.
I don't have all the answers,you know, like life still gets
difficult and life does what itdoes, but at least I know now
what I can do to take care ofmyself in the face of life,
(24:11):
getting lifey.
SPEAKER_03 (24:13):
Yeah.
I I would offer too, in myjourney, so I I also struggled a
lot with dishonesty, and therewere a lot of subtle ways.
And a lot of my dishonesty wasto shield me from the shame of
what was true.
And so you know, I would bedishonest about my finances or
dishonest about one thing oranother.
(24:35):
And part of my healing journeywas to really understand that
not all shame.
So in present culture, there'sthis tendency to want to say all
shame is bad.
And but but if I were shamelessand would do unconscionable
things, that wouldn't be good.
And so there's something reallyconstructive that can help me
(24:56):
have a right relationship withGod and with an authority in
life, if I can feel the presenceof shame when I'm out of
alignment.
And the way that I can feel thatpresence, which keeps me
connected to my higher power, tomy creator, is by owning when
I'm out of alignment.
But once I start this deceptiveprocess of hiding, of calling it
(25:17):
by another name, by prettying itup, by you know, doing all these
subtle ways, then then I'm nolonger in accountability.
And in the rooms, they that theysay to us, uh, we're as sick as
our secrets.
So we're as it we're as ill asour secrets, the things that we
harbor that we hide.
And and then, you know, once I'mout of accountability, if if
(25:40):
anybody's out there strugglingwith mental health or addiction,
if you're out of accountability,you're in the danger zone.
Red flag should be coming upeverywhere.
Because what's coming in thefuture is is likely going to be
a further iteration of what wasdamaging in the past.
You know, you're you're gonnaexperience greater and greater
consequences.
(26:00):
And so that accountabilityreally and that honesty really
helps me remain integrity andkeep that peace that we were
talking about earlier.
Uh I can feel peaceful even thatI screwed up, that I made a huge
mistake.
SPEAKER_04 (26:14):
Yeah, and there's something so cleansing about
being seen in the truth of theshame that I experienced for my
choice rather than hiding thechoice that I made to protect
from feeling ashamed.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:27):
How does one recognize when they're out of
accountability?
What are some tips if if they'renot familiar with this concept?
SPEAKER_04 (26:39):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
Well, I guess uh with thatquestion is the assumption that
I've at least opened myself upto be held accountable by some
authority, by some mentor orguide or friend or loved one to
say, look, these are the thingsthat I'm struggling with, these
are the things that I'm workingon.
If you see something, saysomething, right?
(27:00):
Like if if it looks to you likeaddiction is happening, trust
your gut and speak to it.
If it looks like I'm slidingback, please, you know, just let
me know.
Don't be afraid to tell me whatit is that you that you're
seeing.
But if if I haven't even hadthose conversations, if I'm just
imagining that I can figure itout on my own, right?
Or I did this for a long time.
(27:22):
I was going to to 12-stepmeetings and not doing anything
and sitting in the meetings andthinking, why isn't my life
changing yet?
I'm here.
Like, why is nothing changing?
And then I would hear, you know,that that that those do not
recover, that those who do notrecover are those that are
constitutionally incapable ofbeing honest with themselves.
And I thought, that's me.
(27:42):
That's why I'm not getting it,because I'm just incapable.
I was made this way and I can'tget it.
But the the reality was that Iwas unwilling to be held
accountable.
I was unwilling to step into thering and say, I need to take
some action in the directionthat I'm wanting to move in.
I was just hoping that somethingoutside would come into me,
possess me, and and make my lifeinto what I wanted it to be,
(28:05):
right?
So the living out ofaccountability requires some
degree of willingness to be heldaccountable in the first place.
SPEAKER_03 (28:12):
Yeah, and I would say part two, maybe to add to
that, is just if you notice thatyou're blaming a lot of people,
so if you're holding a lot ofother people accountable for how
you're feeling, how you're doingin life, why you didn't get to
where you want to get, and soforth and so on, that's usually
a pretty good indicator thatthat you're not really owning
(28:33):
your part, that you're you'reyou're looking to others to be
responsible for what's workingor what's not working in your
life.
And that usually I'm not inaccountability when I'm doing
that.
And then the other thing wouldbe you can just look at your
life and see if things areworking out.
You know, people who have a highdegree of accountability, they
(28:54):
do so because it's awesome.
It's like, you know, you youknow what what your day is gonna
feel like more or less.
You know there are certainthings you can count on in your
your inner experience and yourphysical experience and your
emotional and spiritualexperience because you're
accountable to those things.
So it you get to live in thefruits of that.
And so if your life isn'tworking, it's probably a and
(29:17):
you're blaming people, it's areally good sign that you have
some accountability issues.
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
Those are two really easily implementable tips that
people can start practicingtoday.
I love it.
So, how can nervous systemregulation change how we process
trauma and addiction?
SPEAKER_03 (29:33):
If if somebody has gone through a very traumatic
experience, and I think thiswould be true for a lot of
people who are mood altering anddoing substances, um, exp
especially the really extremeones, it's in all likelihood
their nervous system in is insuch a is is frayed in such a
way that it could be hard forthem to have much r capacity to
(29:58):
be relational with life.
So I can be easily overwhelmedby sensations, or conversely, I
could be frozen and out oftouch.
So if you think on like a reallysort of a uh two-polar sides,
there's kind of numb to life,which can be one setting of my
my nervous system, or flooded.
(30:19):
And when I'm flooded, I can'treally have I'm connected to the
experience, but it's it's sooverwhelming to me that I can't
do anything meaningful with it.
And if I'm numb, I'm tuned out.
So what I'm looking to reallyexperience is this middle
ground.
I'm looking to grow up thismiddle ground where I can have
enough centeredness and enoughpresence and enough regulation
(30:43):
within my nervous system that Ican be in touch with life but
not be overwhelmed by it.
So I'm in touch, but there's aspaciousness about it.
And it that takes time tocultivate that, and that's why
we do a practice each morning.
It's an ancient tradition fromKorea and it's called kuksundo,
and it's a lower diaphragmaticbreathing practice with also
(31:06):
some yoga and stretching andthings of that sort.
But what it helps an individualdo is it helps entrain their
nervous system to theparasympathetic relaxation
response.
So now, if if I was reallystrung out before, now my body
knows, okay, it's safe inside.
You can go into rest, digest,and you can start to even get
(31:27):
into alpha brain waves, whichmeans, oh, now I can see
possibilities.
And now I can use creativity onmy behalf, but I can feel a
degree of at easeness, which ifI am working on substance use,
or let's say I'm working ontrauma, part of my healing
process is going to be to touchsome of those places where there
(31:48):
was hurt.
And and now I can do it whereI'm anchored in such a way that
there's enough of a lovingpresence cultivated in me and
enough well-being in my nervoussystem that I can touch those
places without beingoverwhelmed.
And I can start to bringgoodness to those places.
And then for the addict, I Imight be for the first time, my
(32:11):
my whole orientation has beensomething outside me makes me
good.
Something outside me is gonnamake me feel okay.
Well, now what I'm starting totrain myself to experience is as
I do this practice, I make mefeel good.
The good is within, the good iswithin me, and moment by moment
I can practice that, and then Ican stretch that out throughout
(32:32):
my day so it covers my day.
And in time, when I becomestudied enough, it becomes a way
of being, it becomes the new setfor my nervous system.
SPEAKER_04 (32:41):
So the practice allows me to create a space
within myself where there'sthere's such a comfortable home
base, right?
And and so if I'm in that stateof fight or flight and my
nervous system is just so kindof hotwired by life, it's gonna
be really hard for me to facesome of these traumatic
(33:03):
experiences of the past or thesedifficult relationships or uh
work on the things that I wantto because it's it's it's like
an open wound that's sosensitive that that it doesn't
have enough protection to healto begin to kind of work on.
And so what the sorry, what thewhat the breath work practice
allows is for me to to cultivatethis place of solidity and
(33:27):
grounding and safeness withinmyself so that when I when I do
begin to go back to some ofthese hurts from the past, I I
know where that safety withinself resides.
Right.
And so uh and a popular practicethese days is something like
EMDR, where you know it's usingdifferent techniques to
reprocess trauma, but a big partof that is creating that
(33:50):
experience of safety within selfbefore I go back.
And so what the sundo practiceis, is is that on a daily,
consistent basis, I've made itinto a practice.
So now I don't have to go to anEMDR session to experience some
relaxation, but my day is isgrounded in that sense of peace.
SPEAKER_01 (34:12):
Those were two great nervous system regulation
techniques.
I love it.
Before we cover the next topicin this episode, I want to
introduce you to the adventuresports lifestyle with what I
call a micro story about anadventure that I've had.
The adventure sports lifestyleand my deep connection to nature
is essential to my good health.
So here's the story.
(34:33):
When I go on an adventure likearchery fishing or kayaking, I'm
moving my body in rhythm with mybreath and working in harmony
with the natural world, likereading and running the river,
for example.
An adventure sports lifestyleleveled up my good mental and
physical health.
I did that.
I hope this inspires you to getoutside and adventure alone with
(34:56):
friends or with the people youlove most.
Now, back to the show wherewe're talking with Greg Forst
and Michael Nolan about recoveryhappening in the body, not just
in your head.
So, what does it mean to liverecovery in the body, not just
in the head?
SPEAKER_04 (35:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's great.
I guess with an idea like that,what comes to my mind is that
there are so many treatmentprograms.
There's a ton of resources.
If there are people that are outthere in your audience that are
struggling with mental healthand addiction, there there are
resources, there are people outthere that are willing to
support you.
And in our experience, workingat many of these programs, they
(35:35):
had good curriculum, they hadgood psychoeducational materials
and worksheets and you know, uhlists of skills that people can
implement.
What we found though was that itwas almost like now that you're
done with treatment, take yourbinder of skills with you
through life and don't forget toopen to the right page when life
gets difficult.
And that could certainly work,but our sense was that we wanted
(35:59):
people to begin putting thesethings into practice
consistently every day so thattheir experience of life shifts
rather than my experience oflife is the same and I just need
to remember the right skill.
And so when when I can begin toengage in a practice like sundo
or engage in a practice likerigorous honesty, then I'm
(36:22):
shifting my relationship to lifein such a way that I am now
living out the values andprinciples of recovery and more
in alignment with my own values,that I want to be respectable, I
want to be honest, I want to bea person of integrity, I want to
be compassionate andunderstanding.
But when I'm living in such anexternally focused way, what
ends up happening is I'm tryingto live for what I imagine other
(36:45):
people want from me, and then Igo completely off-scene, I'm no
longer in the relationships thatI say are so meaningful to me,
right?
And so living out recovery orembodying recovery would look
like putting these recoverypractices or these recovery
skills into practice on a dailybasis so that they just become
(37:05):
normal for me.
SPEAKER_03 (37:06):
Also, if we're speaking about on the level of
the body, then then our our feltexperience of living in our body
becomes more easeful.
So, you know, prior to doing apractice like Sundo, many of us
are very constricted in ourbreathing and our way of being.
So our life force has may mayhave been hampered or shut down.
(37:29):
But when when we do this kind ofinner work, we're we're
retooling our psyche, and thathas a really powerful effect on
our lived experience in ourbody.
So it just feels better to be meeach and every day when I
practice these things.
And then that really becomes away of being.
It's not like Mike was saying,we're moving away from just a
(37:51):
skill set that I want to do whena crisis occurs into a way of
being such that really myrecovery r touches my character,
it touches my identity, and itjust like it's it's changing me
psychologically, it's changingme physically.
And the way that my nervoussystem operates, my in-touchness
(38:13):
with all the feelings and thefelt sense of my body, all of
that becomes awakened and weexperience more aliveness.
It's a truly vibrant state to beliving in my integrity and from
a place of of recovery, and thebody really likes it.
SPEAKER_01 (38:29):
So, how can listeners find a practitioner in
their area or connect with youfor the Empower it Living
Teachings?
SPEAKER_04 (38:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So they can find us online.
Our website isembodiedrecovery.com, and then
we also have a nonprofitorganization that we created a
few years ago called Malos.
So that's uh M as in MaryE-L-O-S, and then the website is
meloscenter.org.
And through the nonprofit,people can tune into our
teachings that we do on the lastFriday of every or um the last
(39:02):
Wednesday of every month.
So we do those in person here inCampbell at the treatment space.
But if people aren't in thearea, they can join us on Zoom.
And then the the Sundal practiceas well, there's some avenues
for people to join us for thepractice.
We have smartphone app, theembodied recovery app that
people can check out.
It's got a you know a recoverytracker and some of our content
(39:23):
that we've created and meetingfinders, a lot of different
things in the app.
But we're certainly accessible.
People can find us onlinethrough embodiedrecovery.com or
malocenter.org.
SPEAKER_03 (39:32):
And then just a couple other things I would add
into that is uh we do a Mondaynight dance event, Elixir Dance,
that we host as well.
And then podcasts like these,but also our Empowered Living
Teaching Series are allavailable via podcast on the
website.
And then in the weeks to come,it might be as much as a month
out, so maybe when this isreleased somewhere down the
(39:55):
road, we're also gonna have anintroductory video available
online for Sundo.
And so for those of thelisteners out there that might
be wanting to find a way toenhance their nervous system,
their experience being in thebody, this could be a real
resource.
SPEAKER_04 (40:10):
Oh, and then anybody that's in this area in October,
we're uh we're having uh Sundomaster Jin Mok fly in from
Korea.
He's gonna be hosting a four-dayworkshop early October.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:22):
Wow, that sounds so incredible.
And all of the links will be inthe show description.
Thank you so much for joining metoday on New Normal Big Life.
SPEAKER_03 (40:32):
Oh, thank you so much.
This was a real delight.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:36):
Until next time, friends, I'm Antoinette Lee,
your wellness warrior here atthe New Normal Big Life Podcast.
I hope one day to see you on theriver, in the backcountry, or in
the horse vine living your bestlife.
Struggling with health problemsor seeking natural health
solutions, we've got youcovered.
Don't miss our latest podcastepisodes, exclusive blog posts,
(40:58):
and free ebooks packed withlife-changing wellness tips.
Be sure to help others find thisgreat information by leaving us
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