June 13, 2025 • 53 mins
The demonization of masculinity over the past decade has created a damaging cultural environment where boys and men are made to feel inherently flawed simply for exhibiting natural masculine traits. This eye-opening episode challenges this harmful narrative with compelling research showing traditional masculinity actually improves mental well-being and provides psychological resilience.
When we examine the American Psychological Association's 2018 guidelines for practice with boys and men, we discover a concerning tendency to pathologize normal male behavior. While acknowledging positive traits like courage and leadership, the emphasis on potential negative outcomes has contributed to a societal message that masculinity itself is problematic. As researcher Adam Alter's work demonstrates, the labels we apply don't just describe reality—they actively shape it, affecting how boys and men view themselves and how others treat them.
Licensed therapist Amy Berrafato, LMFT, CST (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, and Certified Sex Therapist) offers a refreshing perspective, emphasizing that masculinity itself isn't toxic—rather, specific behaviors can be harmful regardless of gender. She advocates creating safe spaces where men can express vulnerability without judgment, celebrating masculine strengths while encouraging healthy emotional expression. "Expressing feelings in ways people can hear" becomes a pathway to stronger relationships without requiring men to abandon their masculine identity.
The societal consequences of devaluing traditional masculinity extend beyond individual psychology. Throughout history, cultures that lost appreciation for masculine virtues often became vulnerable to external threats and internal decline. This episode makes a compelling case that resilient societies require the positive aspects of masculinity, including courage, protection, and strength of character.
Ready to challenge the toxic narrative around masculinity? Join us as we explore how to celebrate positive masculine traits while fostering healthy emotional expression for everyone. Share your thoughts on X, formerly Twitter by tagging new normal big life or nnblblog — we'd love to hear how you're embracing the best of traditional values in your modern life.
Hi friends, welcome to the new normal, Big Life Podcast! We bring you natural news and stories about nature that we hope will inspire you to get outside and adventure, along with a step-by-step plan to help you practice what you’ve learned and create your own new normal and live the biggest life you can dream. I’m your host, Antoinette Lee, the Wellness Warrior.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
new, normal big life masculinity is trashed.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Men are cracking.
For a decade the world slamgrit, strength, boys being boys,
calling it toxic, rot.
Research flips it.
Traditional masculinity liftsspirits, shields minds.
Yet toxic masculinity thelabels are scarring kids and
crushing men's souls.
This is masculinity bashedTruth fights back, unpacking the
(00:31):
war on men and cheering what'sgood in every masculine heart.
Listen up, we're shredding thelies and arming you with proof.
Take back manhood.
Expert quotes on this subject.
Ai's got the mic.
I'm an IT junkie braced forsome next level nerd magic.
Hi friends, welcome to the newnormal big life podcast.
(00:53):
We bring you natural news andstories about nature that we
hope will inspire you to getoutside and adventure, along
with a step-by-step plan to helpyou practice what you've
learned and create your own newnormal and live the biggest life
you can dream.
I'm your host.
Antoinette Lee, the wellnesswarrior, heads up.
This episode dives into middlehealth struggles that might hit
(01:15):
close to home or feel heavy forsome.
Take care of yourself.
Skip or pause if you need.
If you don't identify with thetraditional masculine archetype,
you might not see yourselfreflected in this episode.
While all character typescontribute value to a civilized
modern society, this piecespecifically addresses
traditional masculinity.
(01:36):
However, the content heredoesn't aim to cast any negative
light on other character traits.
In researching this article, Inoticed a significant lack of
positive or supportive contentabout masculine men and boys
published since 2015.
For nearly a decade,masculinity has been frequently
criticized, which has had adetrimental effect on many men
(01:56):
and boys.
This episode blasts themasculinity bashing, cheering
every rugged edge, whiletorching the toxic lie that's
choking men.
Here's what the researcherssaid about masculinity, men's
mental health and how toxicmasculinity as a label is
detrimental to men, boys andsociety.
(02:17):
The concept of toxic masculinityreflects a broader societal
attempt to critique certainbehaviors traditionally
associated with masculinity,like playing rough sports or not
expressing emotions openly.
However, labeling these traitsas inherently problematic or
even pathological can lead tomisunderstanding and
(02:38):
stigmatization of typical malebehavior.
Since the 1930s, with theintroduction of the linguistic
relativity hypothesis byBenjamin Worf, we've understood
that language doesn't justdescribe our world, but actively
shapes it.
When we label behaviors ortraits as toxic masculinity,
(02:59):
we're not just identifying a setof behaviors.
We're framing how society viewsand treats boys and men.
This framing can reinforcestereotypes, suggesting there's
something inherently wrong withboys for engaging in activities
or behaviors that are culturallynormative or a norm for them
Rather than recognizing these aspart of a spectrum of human
(03:21):
behavior.
It's important to differentiatebetween critiquing harmful
behaviors and pathologizingnormal developmental stages or
expressions of masculinity.
Recognizing this distinctioncan help in fostering a more
nuanced discussion about gendernorms and encourage positive
masculinity traits, whileaddressing truly harmful
(03:44):
behaviors without alienating orshaming individuals for their
natural inclinations.
Happiness researcher Dr SonjaLubomirsky's research suggests
that quote this much happinessup to 40 percent is within our
power to change.
End quote.
So if we extrapolate the model,according to Dr Lubomirsky's
(04:05):
model, 50% of our happiness isdetermined by genetics, which
can be influenced by 40% of ourlife choices, while the
remaining 10% is shaped by ourenvironment, the things that
happen to us.
Consider a masculine man or boygrowing up in a violent,
hopeless urban environment onthe south side of Chicago or a
(04:27):
West Virginia holler whereaccess to opportunities that
contribute to happiness andsuccess in the American society
is limited.
This individual starts like 10%behind on the success curve due
to these environmental factors,a disadvantage imposed by
societal structures.
Now, if we consider that 50% ofwhat defines these men includes
(04:49):
certain character traits thatsociety might label negatively
are inherited.
These inherited traits, whichcan be turned on or off by
certain factors adds anotherlayer of challenge.
Regardless of race, income orother societal labels, these
masculine individuals fromchallenging environments are
then at a combined 60%disadvantage.
(05:11):
How can we as a society expectthese men and boys from
difficult environments to catchup and demonstrate the best of
masculine traits by makingbetter life choices, with only
40% of their human potentialpositively impacted?
This expectation seemsunrealistic without addressing
(05:31):
the systemic issues thatcontribute to their initial
disadvantage.
To truly support theseindividuals at becoming their
best selves, we have to considercomprehensive societal changes
that produce better educationaland job opportunities, also
community acceptance andcompassion and fostering an
environment where positivemasculine characteristics can
(05:53):
thrive in individuals fromchallenging backgrounds.
When we come back, we'll take alook at what the American
Psychological Association offersits professionals and its
guidelines.
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Speaker 2 (07:32):
Welcome back.
We're examining what theAmerican Psychological
Association, the APA, offers itsprofessionals as guidelines.
In 2018, the APA publishedguidelines titled quote APA
Guidelines for PsychologicalPractice with Boys and Men end
quote which aim to assistpsychologists in providing
effective, evidence-based careto male clients.
(07:54):
The APA says these guidelinesdraw upon over 40 years of
research indicating thattraditional masculinity can be
psychologically harmful,particularly when it leads to
the suppression of emotions.
The guidelines encouragepsychologists to help boys and
men navigate the pressures ofconforming to restrictive
(08:16):
national masculine norms in waysthat promote mental health and
well-being.
According to the APA, whiletraits associated with
masculinity like courage,strength and leadership can be
positive, certain masculinenorms such as stoicism,
competitiveness, dominance andaggression, when taken to
extremes, can lead to negativeoutcomes.
(08:37):
Only the phrase when taken toextremes is often overlooked,
and much of society has come toview any form of masculine male
expression as a toxic sicknessto be wiped out of our culture.
These masculine norms the APAdiscussed include reluctance to
seek help for mental healthissues, higher rates of violence
(08:59):
, substance abuse and suicideamong men.
The guidelines stress theimportance of psychologists
recognizing their own biases,promoting healthy relationships
and encouraging men and boys toexpress a broader range of
emotions, but the guidelineshave spoke considerable
discussion, with some praisingthe APA for addressing an
(09:20):
overlooked area, while otherscriticize it for potentially
pathologizing masculinity.
This reflects a broadersocietal conversation on how to
approach masculinity in a waythat supports mental health
without reinforcing negativestereotypes.
Let's look at the intent forthe American Psychological
(09:40):
Association's guidelines.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
APA Guidelines for Psychological Practice with Boys
and Men.
Professional practiceguidelines are statements that
suggest or recommend specificprofessional behavior, endeavor
or conduct for psychologists.
Guidelines differ fromstandards in that standards are
mandatory and may be accompaniedby an enforcement mechanism.
Thus, guidelines areaspirational in intent and they
(10:04):
are intended to facilitate thecontinued systematic development
of the profession to helpassure a high level of
professional practice bypsychologists.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
That perspective is compelling.
However, from my personalexperiences with masculine men
and boys, both through familyfriends as well as my
philanthropic work as thefounder of the American
Adventure Sports Club, it'sclear that society has, in many
ways, inflicted significant harmon masculine men and boys.
This harm is not justincidental, but seems to be
(10:34):
perpetuated by influentialinstitutions like the APA, media
outlets, government policies,psychologists and educational
systems.
These entities have influencedpublic perception and behavior,
encouraging a broader societalconformity to narratives that
might not fully appreciate orunderstand the value of
(10:55):
traditional masculinity.
Rather than offering support tomasculine men and boys who
might be struggling with issuesrelated to negative behaviors,
these guidelines have, in someinterpretations, including my
own, pathologized all masculinemen and boys.
This approach has led to over adecade of cultural content and
societal behaviors that havesignaled, both in America and
(11:18):
globally, that traditionalmasculine traits are unwelcome
or problematic.
Traditional masculine traitsare unwelcome or problematic.
This widespread messaging haspotentially alienated men and
boys, making them feelmarginalized within their own
societies.
Like me, many psychologists andcritics argue that the AP's
guidelines on masculinity mightbe harmful to masculine men and
(11:40):
boys for several reasons.
There's a concern that theguidelines can be interpreted as
pathologizing normal masculinetraits.
Critics worry that by focusingon the negative aspects of
traditional masculinity, theguidelines might inadvertently
suggest that being masculine isinherently problematic.
This could lead to boys and menfeeling that their natural
(12:01):
behaviors and inclinations arebeing criticized or seen as
needing correction, potentiallyaffecting their self-esteem and
identity development.
Secondly, some psychologistsbelieve that the guidelines
might not adequately adjust thebalance between critiquing
harmful behaviors associatedwith masculinity and celebrating
(12:22):
its positive aspects.
While the guidelines dopositive traits like leadership
and courage, the emphasis onaddressing the negative outcomes
of traditional masculinitycould overshadow these.
Critics argue that thisimbalance might lead to a skewed
perception where all forms ofmasculinity are viewed through a
negative lens, potentiallyalienating men who identify with
(12:46):
traditional masculine roles ordiscouraging them for seeking
psychological help for fear ofbeing judged.
This debate highlights thecomplexity of discussing
(13:08):
masculinity in a way thatpromotes mental health without
reinforcing stereotypes orcausing unintended harm.
Area for her perspective on thetoxic masculinity label and its
impact on masculine men andboys, as well as how she
interprets and uses the APAguidelines in her practice.
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Speaker 2 (15:08):
Our guest in the new normal big life podcast today is
Amy Barofato, LMFT, CFT,Licensed Marriage and Family
Therapist and Certifiedcertified sex therapist.
Hi, Amy, welcome to the show.
Tell us a little bit about yourpractice and therapy
experiences with supportingmasculine men and boys in
treatment.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
Hi, antoinette, thanks for having me.
Glad to be here.
Good to talk with you.
Thank you for that.
Yes, I am.
I'm a therapist in privatepractice in Chicago.
I have been doing clinical workwith adults, couples and
families for about 18 years nowand I am currently in just
(15:49):
making the move into soloprivate practice on my own to
see.
I mostly work with adultindividuals and couples, working
on a variety of relationshipissues Individual mental health,
emotional well-being, treatingdepression, anxiety, stress
management and then relationallycommunication, conflict
(16:11):
resolution, emotion regulation,emotional and physical
connection with the people inyour life.
It's hard not to address familyof origin, work and your
background, because where wecome from is, you know,
obviously impacts who we are andhow we are, the way we are and
I really love the work that I door my initial thought is about
(16:34):
that gender stereotypes arereally harmful, like a huge
broad gender stereotype for menor women, but I think
particularly for men is harmfuland not helpful.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Why so?
I'm sure you'll get into thislater, but why so, mm?
Speaker 6 (16:48):
hmm, well, I think I mean, if you're operating out of
a judgment or an assumption of,maybe, how someone is, based on
what they look like, or howthey talk, or how quiet they are
, or how strong, how strong,physically strong they appear,
there's not, it's just we caneasily make assumptions of what
(17:10):
that means when it's notnecessarily true.
And so, um, I, I mean we'rehuman beings, we kind of do that
naturally.
But I mean I'll notice thatwith a client that I'm meeting
for the first time, I mightmaybe have a thought of what I
kind of expect this to be like,and I'm constantly surprised by
(17:32):
like that.
That's not how I thought thiswould go, and this is like so
much more open and vulnerablethan I originally thought was
possible, which is great that'sinteresting.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Do you have much opportunity to use the APA
guidelines for psychologicalpractice with boys and men in
your practice?
If so, how do you use it?
If not, why?
Speaker 6 (17:51):
I appreciate what they're trying to do, I think,
is to combat the genderedstereotype of traditional
masculinity or whatever's maybe,again, stereotypically harmful
about it.
But that is not in my opinion.
That's not masculinity.
Masculinity is different fromtoxic masculinity, which I
(18:12):
believe is your point too, thatI want us to be addressing the
toxic behaviors within yourselfand also in your relationships,
less so about your masculinityand what that means and says
about you, because that isharmful for that person, for
their relationships, for howthey feel about themselves.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Amy, I think the real question listeners want
answered is your interpretationof my rant on how awful and
harmful we've treated masculinemen and boys in the past 10
years.
So what are your thoughts?
Speaker 6 (18:45):
I have a few thoughts .
So first, I can appreciate myunderstanding.
You have a lot of experiencejust like talking to and
interacting with men from allwalks of life and so, um, and I
also I really appreciate that myexperience talking with men and
(19:05):
women about their feelings,their families, their dynamics
and the hard stuff is a reallyprivileged like that I'm.
It's an honor for me to be apart of that space, and so my
thought is that I work with alot of men who are who have
never been taught how to talkabout feelings, understand what
(19:27):
they are, know how it feels, howto express them better.
Depending on your family systemand where you come from,
depending on your family systemand where you come from, there
might be a lot of limits, or notjust limits, but like negative
responses to who you are, howyou are, how you present, how
you behave, etc.
That I think a lot of folkswind up either internalizing and
(19:51):
then I often see that it comesout in relationships sometimes
so like, like, like,internalizing your feelings.
The impact of that on yourpartner is not always great.
They don't know how you reallyfeel or they're only seeing the
anger when you're upset aboutsomething as opposed to the
other stuff that's underneath.
And so I work with a lot of theimpact, the impact of how you
(20:17):
are with emotion, your emotionand well-being in ways that I
think could probably behealthier and in a situation
where there is one person in arelationship who maybe is
struggling with their feelings.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I've noticed this even in my female friends that
some women aren't good atgetting to anything that's real.
They keep everything verysuperficial, like what's going
on with work or school or kidsor partner, or just light things
like shopping and fashion,which I'm not really interested
(20:53):
in, and they're also strugglingto get to deep, meaningful
connection.
So I can appreciate although Idon't have this situation in my
relationship with a man in mylife I can appreciate how all
human beings, but especially men, in this time where everyone is
(21:14):
so judgy and so ready to be tofeel triggered and angry and and
attack someone that it could bedifficult to express your
feelings.
But you give us one strategy wecould use or something we could
say at home.
If we're dealing with a friendor partner who maybe isn't ready
(21:36):
to open up to us and and we'rereally feeling like I really
need you to talk to me.
So I understand what'shappening in our dynamic, what's
one thing that we could do?
Speaker 6 (21:47):
That's a great question.
Two thoughts pop up for me.
One is the more neutral andopen your response is to
whatever like, instead of beingreactive to like why don't you
ever talk to me?
That's not going to helpsomeone talk to you.
So if you can just say like oh,okay, and then ask.
Second thing, asking a questionthat's more of a vertical
(22:10):
question, which is a little bitdeeper, like the why or the how
or like tell me, like wait, orthe how or like.
Tell me like wait, what do youmean by that?
Can you tell me a little moreabout like how did you, how do
you mean?
Or why what?
Like what makes you think that,as opposed to just what did you
say, it's just there's a littlebit more depth to it which and
(22:31):
if I'm being neutral and I justwant to hear what you have to
say it makes it feel safe orsafer just want to hear what you
have to say.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
It makes it feel safe or safer.
I think that is absolutely thekey feeling safe, to be open, to
be vulnerable.
How would it look in atreatment setting when the
therapist is using the APAguidelines to help boys and men
navigate the pressures ofconforming to traditional
masculine norms and ways thatpromote mental health and
well-being?
End quote.
For example, if I were Anthonyfrom Around the Way, a masculine
(23:02):
man, how would you approachhelping me to navigate the
pressures of masculine norms?
Speaker 6 (23:07):
One of my goals, actually one of the main goals
in therapy that I have withfolks, is just for them to have
a slightly different experienceof a conversation than they
would somewhere else.
So, for instance, if someone isnew to therapy and has never
been, I'll ask a little bitabout how they feel about being
(23:28):
here, cause there's usuallymaybe a little some nerves or
maybe fear of being judged orthis is kind of uncomfortable or
like we're ready to go.
I've just never done thisbefore, don't know what to
expect, and so my approach,again, it's pretty neutral and
like in teaching that, oh,talking about your life, your
(23:49):
feelings, your partner, yourfamily and what that's like for
you is actually not so bad andit's safe and we can do that,
and, and I think that and thenwhen we walk the walk a little
bit in other sessions, theremight be a little bit more,
something more open, like I'm.
My hope is that I'm teaching ormodeling that vulnerable
(24:10):
expression of feelings is a goodthing and it's healthy and it's
okay.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
I love that, that's awesome Assistant Professor of
Marketing at New York UniversityStern School of Business, Adam
Alter, confirmed what I heardfrom kids at Adventure Camp In
his book Drunk Tank, Pink andOther Unexpected Forces that
Shape how we Think, Feel andBehave.
Alter's book and researchfocused on the sometimes
(24:37):
surprising effects of subtleenvironmental cues on human
cognition or human understandingand behavior.
Speaker 7 (24:44):
Hi, I'm the AI representation of author and
researcher Adam Alter.
Researchers began to study thecognitive effects of labeling in
the 1930s, when linguistBenjamin Horf proposed the
linguistic relativity hypothesis.
According to his hypothesis,the words we use to describe
what we see aren't just idleplaceholders they determine what
we see.
The long-term consequences oflabeling a child smart or slow
(25:08):
are profound.
Labeling isn't always a causefor concern.
It can sometimes be beneficial.
It would be impossible tocatalog the information we
process during our lives withoutthe aid of labels like friendly
, scary, tasty and harmful, forexample.
However, it's important torecognize that the people we
(25:29):
label as black, white, rich,poor, smart and simple seem
blacker, whiter, richer, poorer,smarter and simpler merely
because we've labeled them.
So, in light of Adam Alter'sinsights into the power of
labels to shape perception andbehavior, it's crucial to
(25:50):
consider how these conceptsapply to broader societal issues
, such as the discussion onmasculinity.
Labels like toxic masculinitycan have profound effects on how
we view and treat men and boys.
Just as Alter describes howlabels can amplify certain
characteristics, the term toxicmasculinity might inadvertently
(26:11):
reinforce negative stereotypes,potentially overshadowing the
positive aspects of masculinitytypes, potentially overshadowing
the positive aspects ofmasculinity.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
This brings us back to our guest, Amy.
What are your thoughts on AdamAlter's warning to carefully
apply labels because they mightinfluence personal development
and societal expectations of menand boys?
And how can an adult patient orthe parent of a boy judge when
a therapist might have a biasagainst masculine men and boys?
How would that look intreatment?
How can a patient recognizebias in therapy and what should
(26:44):
they do about it?
Should they talk about it withtheir therapist?
If so, how can they tactfullybring it up?
Or should they just find adifferent therapist?
Because what I'm hearing frommasculine men and boys is they
would never talk to a therapistthese days because they believe
they'll be told there'ssomething wrong with being
masculine.
Speaker 6 (27:02):
That's an important.
That's an important question.
I think there's a few layersthere, um one.
So, depending on the um, onceyou have a bit of rapport in the
room in session, um, like, if Ilike, if I say something and it
maybe doesn't land well withsomeone, if they're able to come
(27:22):
and tell me that, like hey,when you used that word, or like
there was a way that you saidthat that didn't sit right which
is a very vulnerable thing todo, by the way to come back and
say, hey, I didn't like, whatdid you mean by that?
Or and I may have had no ideathat there was like a bit of a
misstep there that then we cantalk openly about, maybe repair
(27:44):
the trust if there was a bit ofa fracture there.
And also it would be anopportunity for me to learn a
little bit of the history, maybehow.
That would open me up to asklike, oh, have other people
maybe made judgments of you ormaybe used language like that
that wasn't helpful?
Tell me more, what was thatlike in your family?
And then I have more context togo off of and I can shift my
(28:08):
language so we can continueworking together and
establishing trust.
And if you asked if should theytalk to their therapist about
it, the more honest that you canbe in in session again.
If you have the rapport withthe person, their response to
you also says a lot, like ifsomeone's open to feedback or
(28:30):
like, oh, I had no idea that.
Uh, that that wasn't great.
Thank you for telling me.
Or if they double down anddefend what they said and why
they said it, that's goodinformation for what might or
might not be a great fit for youanyway.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
I think that's going to be very helpful to a lot of
people, especially if they'renew to therapy.
Speaker 6 (28:49):
Yeah, your feelings with.
There's a lot of research onthat your feelings about fit
with your therapist is actuallylike the biggest indicator for
long-term success in therapy,and so I would hate for anyone
to feel judged or condescendedto or like disrespected in there
that that's not going to create, that doesn't foster an
environment of growth andlearning and change and honesty.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
It sounds like the person in treatment should trust
their gut feeling about whatkind of vibe they're getting
from their therapist.
Would that be accurate?
Speaker 6 (29:22):
It would.
Yes, I really trust intuitive.
You know your energy and whatyou're listening to inside you
is usually telling you something, and so I'm all about listening
to that, me too.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I'm all about listening to that, Me too.
So how did we arrive at thispoint in time where society's
begun to vilify masculinity inboys and men, all in an attempt
to enhance the lives of women,queer individuals and men who
don't conform to traditionalmasculine norms?
Let's explore the culturalshifts and the unintended
consequences of this movement toso-called help men be better
(29:57):
humans.
According to Michael Flood,professor of sociology,
Queensland University ofTechnology, the term masculinity
was unknown in the 1990s andearly 2000s, but since around
2015, it's become common indiscussions of men and gender.
It was interesting, as myresearch shows, that most recent
(30:18):
article that I could find insupport of masculinity, men and
boys was written in 2015.
The origins of toxic masculinityare interesting.
The mythopoetic men's movementyes, you heard that right
mythopoetic men's movement was asignificant cultural phenomenon
in the United States from early1980s through the 1990s,
(30:40):
focusing on redefiningmasculinity through a blend of
mythology, psychology andspirituality.
This movement, spearheaded byfigures like a man named Shepard
Bliss, aimed to redefinemasculinity by distinguishing
between deep or real masculinityand its toxic counterpart.
Toxic masculinity was describedas a set of norms that include
(31:05):
aggression, dominance andemotional repression, which are
harmful to men and those aroundthem.
According to Schaeffer Bliss,Over time the phrase was used to
address societal issues likeviolence, sexism and emotional
disconnect.
It's done often at the expenseof recognizing the positive and
encouraging aspects ofmasculinity.
(31:25):
As a biological woman meaning Iwas born a woman I can only
share my perspective and theremight be a bias in my masculine
characteristic preferences.
A man who exhibits strongprotective energy can be very
appealing to me as a friend orpartner.
I lift 100 pounds without helpon my rule property all the time
(31:46):
.
I'm self-reliant and I foughtoff an attacker with my own two
hands.
So a partner who is physically,mentally and emotionally
stronger than me, that's veryappealing and it's what I'm
attractive to.
This preference stems from adeep state of comfort that
knowing, in a world that canfeel dangerous and overwhelming,
I have someone who can stand bymy side, literally and
(32:07):
figuratively.
For instance, when I'm on abackcountry adventure,
whitewater kayaking or icefishing, if I were to find
myself in a situation where Icouldn't protect myself or save
myself, or from falling throughthe ice, for example, it's
comforting to know that mypartner would be there, capable
and ready to help me.
My father was a masculine man,happily married with my mother
(32:29):
for 54 years.
My guy, Matthew, and all myclosest ride or die friends are
all masculine men.
These men in my life display afull spectrum of human emotions.
They're always there when youneed them, providing emotional
support, assistance andprotection.
Moreover, they demonstrate bothprofessionalism and personal
(32:52):
integrity in all aspects oftheir lives, and integrity means
doing the right thing even whenno one's watching of their
lives, and integrity means doingthe right thing even when no
one's watching.
The masculine man in my life,Matt, and our friends took care
of me after surgery.
They showed up with homemadebreads and foods they cook for
themselves at home.
They comforted and reassured mebefore whitewater kayaking in
(33:15):
big, scary water and theyrescued me when I swam out of my
boat.
And then they reminded me ofeverything I did well that day.
Nothing toxic about thesemasculine men.
Meeting Matt, a mentally,physically and emotionally
strong masculine man, on awhitewater kayaking camping trip
led to my best relationshipever.
Our shared values and adventuresports lifestyle match well
with areas.
(33:36):
We're very different.
I'm fortunate to live, work andrecreate with my best friend,
Matt in a cabin in the woods.
His high emotional intelligencewas a great asset during the
early days of the COVID lockdown, when no one knew what to
expect.
While many others faced theearly days of the COVID lockdown
with social media postsreflecting a lack of
(33:56):
preparedness for hard times anda breakdown of mental health and
intimate relationships,Meanwhile, Matt and I thrived.
Critics of masculine men oftenoverlook that someone like Matt
dedicates his free time tovolunteering, sharing his
expertise in kayak and fishingwith children and adults and
people from diverse backgrounds,including those from low-income
(34:18):
households, individuals withdisabilities, seniors,
regardless of gender identity.
Instead of recognizing hiscontributions, they quickly
label him and men like him asexhibiting toxic masculinity
just for showing up.
Society fails to appreciate thetrue value of the masculine
(34:38):
male character.
Historically, whencivilizations like Rome began to
weaken, it was often due to adecline in military strength and
civic virtue among their men,which also spread to boys, girls
and women.
This decline left everyonevulnerable to external invasions
and internal decay, Kind oflike the US right now.
The loss of vigoroushealthiness among men, women,
(35:02):
girls and boys significantlycontributed to the eventual
downfall of these once powerfulsocieties, as G's Michael Hoff
famously said.
Speaker 7 (35:12):
Hard times create strong men.
Strong men create good times.
Good times create weak men andweak men create hard times.
Read by the AI-generated voiceof G Michael Hoff.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
As character traits like flight flight or fawn
begging not to be harmed in adangerous situation were
celebrated and encouraged in menand boys.
Today we see unsafe communities, geopolitical instability and
economically challenging timesas a result of the demonization
and decline of masculine men andother complex cultural and
(35:45):
political and economic issues.
When criminals and predators,male and female, believe there
are no mentally and physicallystrong people to intervene,
they're emboldened towardaggression and criminality.
You only need to scroll throughsocial media to see the facts
before you.
Here's an example amongchildren In 2023, at a
(36:06):
recreation center eventsponsored by a Colorado
municipality for youths age 8 to12, boys came home and reported
they were groped and kissed bygirls without consent and they
were asked by 8 to 20-year-oldgirls to sneak away to other
parts of the building for sex.
The sexualization of childrenand the breakdown of traditional
(36:28):
roles have led to societaldecline, with even our children
are preying on each other, justlike in the final days of Rome
and other cultures.
Men and boys aren't the onlypredators, they're not the only
people capable of violence andcriminal behavior, and they're
not the only people who don'twant to talk about their
feelings either.
Have you tried talking with ateen girl or a millennial woman
(36:51):
about her feelings lately?
Was that a vulnerable, calm andrational conversation?
However, we've villainized andpathologized masculine men and
boys for 10 years.
During a CPR class to preparefor an adventure camp at the
nonprofit, my guy, matt, and Ifounded.
Young women of color and whitewomen were initially dismissive
(37:13):
towards Matt, but when theyrealized he was with me, an
Afro-Latina, their demeanorchanged and they softened toward
him.
It was as if their initialjudgment of you're just another
toxic masculine man exertingwhite privilege why are you even
in my space, even though hehadn't said a word yet?
The white woman's initialreaction to white to Matt, who's
(37:35):
also white was silentlyretracted as they reassessed him
through a new lens because he'swith a Black woman.
My heart breaks to see howmasculine men and boys are
shunned from society.
Over the past 10 years, someboys at our free adventure
sports club and annual adventurecamp said this what kids told
their camp counselors.
Speaker 8 (37:58):
I don't know what people's faces are telling me.
I don't want to talk about mypronouns, can't I just be a kid
and forget about that stuff?
My teacher wants me to act likea girl and I don't want to
because I'm a boy.
My mother got the COVID vaccineand she's always sick.
Now Is she gonna be okay?
I don't remember what it's liketo play with other kids.
(38:20):
I'm glad I'm at camp becauselast week I was thinking about
different ways to kill myself,but I don't want to do that
anymore.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
After four days at camp, parents reported a
noticeable improvement in theirchild's mood, behavior and
school performance.
We emphasize teaching kidsoutdoor skills like archery,
kayaking and paddle boardingthrough a challenge-by-choice
model and group therapy sessionsduring campfire talks.
Try this with your kids anddrop us a comment if you want to
(38:52):
learn more about preparing yourchild for sleep away camp.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
In an upcoming podcast, virtual Signaling PSYOP
Exposed.
Researchers say labeling andvirtual signaling creates
loneliness, and loneliness makespeople vulnerable, says dr gene
twinge.
Author of ijen twinge's thesissays angry, isolated individuals
(39:17):
are easier to controlpolitically, economically and
socially.
A divided society finds itself,not the puppet masters who's
trying to manipulate yourbehavior for their own reasons,
like scrolling content onlineand gaming for hours and buying
things you don't need.
So look for this episodewherever you get your podcasts.
Here's what clinicalpsychologist Megan Mobs had to
(39:40):
say about the AmericanPsychological Association's
guidelines and how it's harmfulto men and boys.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
This population deserves our care and attention.
Masculine men deserveguidelines so we can deliver
effective treatment.
They don't deserve labels.
In labeling traditionalmasculinity as harmful, we begin
to see traditionally masculinemen as harmful.
The truth that we seem loatheto admit is that we need men and
women capable of enacting harmon others in times of war.
(40:10):
So maybe a better place tobegin is by shaming any and all
toxic behavior, and not thegender in which it originates.
The AI-generated voice ofpsychologist Megan Mobbs.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
When we come back, we'll talk with our expert
guests about what researchersand authors notice, about how
traditional masculine traits areincreasingly scrutinized and
shunned.
Before we cover the next topicin this episode, I want to
introduce you to the adventuresports lifestyle with what I
like to call a micro story aboutan adventure I've had.
The adventure sports lifestyleand my deep connection to nature
(40:45):
is essential to my good health.
Sports lifestyle and my deepconnection to nature is
essential to my good health.
So here's the story.
On a rafting trip with friendson the Frank Trich River of no
Return in Salmon, idaho, on asmall beach in a stretch of
wilderness so remote an EMSrescue is dangerous and might
not be attempted.
Lying in my tent and nearlydrifting off to sleep, I
suddenly couldn't breathe,knowing there was no chance of
(41:08):
help coming.
I focused on deep breathing,deeply, taking air through my
nose and exhaling fully throughmy nose again to calm myself.
The river was deafening and Icould feel it metaphorically
pulling me into its cold waters.
I surrendered to it.
It was physically painful andscary, but on the other side of
(41:30):
the experience I felt healedfrom a trauma that plagued me
for four decades.
The river pulled out thetraumatic remnants of what I
couldn't let go, and I amforever changed.
I did that.
I hope this inspires you to getoutside and adventure alone
with friends or the folks youlove the most.
Now back to our discussion onthe harmful effects of the toxic
(41:53):
male label with Amy Riafano.
Amy, what insights can youoffer the audience on the
concept of modern societiesneeding masculine men and boys
to thrive as a culture in acountry, and how can we really
learn to appreciate masculinity?
How would that look within aculture and a country?
And how can we relearn toappreciate masculinity?
How would that look within afamily and a community.
Speaker 6 (42:11):
I'm thinking about this a lot in the in some of
what you just shared.
I really think a lot of thisalso stems from some
self-awareness, like a reallydeep sense of self-awareness,
because, like I said, in yourrelationships again with partner
, friends, colleagues, familymembers, how you speak to them,
(42:35):
the kinds of actions you take,how you are behaviorally, how
you communicate your feelings ordon't, does impact how they
feel, you know.
(43:00):
So, being aware of the factthat, even if I'm someone who is
not as forthright about myfeelings and I tend to be more
quiet, I just want to be able toacknowledge with empathy,
stepping outside of myself andthat might be hard for you too
and so I think some of thelimits on in some of those more
toxic behaviors are a lack ofself-awareness and a lack of
empathy and sometimes a lack ofwillingness to do it differently
(43:23):
, to like a real stubbornnessabout it, that that doesn't feel
very good in a relationshipwhen we're trying to work on
things together, you know.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
It seems like if I put myself in the man's position
, it often seems like in a man'smind, he might have a
preconception of what it meansto be a man and could be
thinking that if I am behavingin a way that's different from
(43:54):
how my partner wants me to be,it's because, especially if the
partner's a woman, she doesn'tunderstand me because she's not
a woman.
And so I wonder if it might behelpful because I've had this
conversation with my partner,matt it might be helpful to talk
about what it means to be awoman for me and what it means
(44:17):
to be a man for him, that thosequestions or conversations came
up because we spend a lot oftime together recreating, or
conversations came up because wespend a lot of time together
recreating.
So there are no screens, no TV,and if you're tired of reading
a book, you actually talk toeach other.
So we have had conversationsabout what does it mean to be a
(44:40):
man, what does it mean to be awoman, and my recommendations is
that you don't have thatconversation with someone when
you want something from them.
So if you want your husband,for example, to talk to you, you
don't bring up.
Well, what does it mean to be aman and then open up to me and
tell me how you feel, because itcould feel like you're beating
(45:01):
him into conflict.
So can you talk about some waysthat when you're not having a
conflict or when you're notactively trying to get someone
to talk to you, what could yousay to them to kind of draw them
out, to let them know that it'sa safe space, to let them know
that, no matter what they tellyou, you're still going to love
(45:23):
them, you're still going torespect them and and you're
creating a safe environmentwithin your relationship?
How would that look in practice?
Speaker 6 (45:34):
Yeah, I like that question too, because you're
guiding.
I think it's really importantto speak for yourself about your
own experience of being a man.
What is the masculinity whereyou are on the spectrum of that,
maybe limits of what that'slike, or what it's been like to
be a man, same for a woman, whatit's like to be a woman, et
(45:57):
cetera.
So you can understand eachother's unique personal
experience in those bodies withthat gender that you identify
with, as opposed to what you'rethinking stereotypically, which
again we fall into that.
But there's lots of potentialto learn and grow better, which
I think can then open up more,more possibility for some
(46:21):
empathy between you, somethingI've learned.
Brene Brown talks about this inher work.
She talks a lot about empathy.
The root of empathy is actuallynot just your ability to
understand where someone else iscoming from.
It actually has everything todo with your own ability to sit
with and understand your ownfeelings, and so if someone has
(46:45):
a hard time doing that or wouldrather not, or feelings aren't
safe or that's a weakness orwhatever that means to you,
that's going to influence howyou might be able to empathize
with your partner who is tellingyou that they're struggling or
that they didn't like how youjust said the thing that you
just said.
You know like you're building areal confidence from the inside
(47:08):
, but it's more emotionallywhole because it's based in your
own feelings, you know Wow.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
That's really powerful because it reminds me
of situations where I've had totell friends who are coming to
me for relationship advice andI've said to a few people who
didn't like me that muchafterward but I believe in
telling people the truth and ifI tell people the truth with
compassion and if they can'thandle it, then I just stopped
(47:36):
telling you the truth.
I'll just tell you what youwant it.
Well, it depends.
I might stop being your friendafter that, but if you're a good
friend for a long time and Iknow you're someone who can't
handle the truth that you'rereally just looking for an amen
corner like yep, you're so right, I won't be your amen corner
when I think you're wrong, butI'll just zip it.
But sometimes I have to tellfriends, when they're asking my
(48:01):
advice, that the best advice Ican give them is stop trying to
fix your partner, because that'spreventing you from looking at
all of the things in your ownbehavior.
Speaker 6 (48:13):
That's contributing to why the two of you are not
getting along Exactly, which isback to self-awareness, owning
your part in an interaction withsomeone, which is also where
learning how to express yourselflike can come in handy.
We're all entitled to ourfeelings.
We are not entitled to expressthem however we want to Like.
(48:37):
There are ways of communicatingand expressing anger that are
healthy, that also don't hurtpeople, that are also intense
and like a really healthy, thatare also intense and like a
really healthy, like big outlets, and also not harmful, not
aggressive, not at anyone else'sexpense, and so I teach a lot
of that in sessions as well,like expressing it in ways that
(49:00):
people can hear.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Oh, that's so rich.
Express it in ways that peoplecan hear.
Speaker 6 (49:20):
I love that.
How can we relearn toappreciate masculinity?
How would that look within asilver lining?
Focus on the positive kind ofway, but I mean celebrate the
strengths of you know, um.
Other masculine traits can belike devotion to work
traditionally masculine traits,devotion to work, pride in your
athleticism, providing for yourfamily, taking care of yourself
(49:42):
so you can take care of otherpeople.
There are a lot of strengths inthat, and so I'm a big fan of
highlighting what's so greatabout that and how, like, if I'm
in a relationship with someone,I would highlight that I
benefit, like I get to do what Ido because of the things that
you do too, which is great.
And then I would also reallyhighlight if, um, if you, if
(50:04):
someone struggles with beingvulnerable and letting their
guard down, like showing thesofter side, more vulnerable
feelings, I would highlight howstrong that is to me to hear
that, to see that, because it'sreally powerful, and I want to
show you that it is not onlysafe but celebrated to do that.
So more of that, please.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
You know I love that and I actually do that, and you
know, I thank Matt for beingvulnerable with me and let him
know that I'm honored that hechose me because he has friends,
he has family, he has lots ofother people he can talk to and
most often, I think he choosesto talk to me about things.
So I think that's wonderful,but I also let him know how much
(50:49):
I appreciate that and how muchit brings us closer together.
Thank you, amy Berrafato, forjoining us today for this
important discussion.
If you're in the Chagokagalanarea and you're looking for a
great therapist with an openperspective on men and boys,
among other things, you can findAmy Barifato online.
(51:09):
Amy, tell us how to reach youand who you serve.
Speaker 6 (51:13):
Thank you again for having me.
It's been a really enjoyableconversation.
Yes, you can find me online andmy contact info is on my
website, which iswwwamybarifatolmatocom.
Thank you so much, you'rewelcome.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
In closing, let's move beyond the toxic
masculinity narrative tocelebrate the positive
contributions of masculine menand boys in our lives.
By understanding the historicalcontext of the term toxic
masculinity, we can betterappreciate the need for a
balanced view that honors allaspects of gender identity.
(51:54):
Relationships thrive on mutualrespect, understanding and
celebrating each person's uniquequality, including those
traditionally seen as masculine.
Here's to masculinity, love andthe richness it brings to our
families and communities.
If you're getting value fromthis content, leave us a view
(52:15):
wherever you get your podcast tomake it easier for others to
find us.
Until next time, friends, I'myour host, deantoinette Lee,
your wellness warrior here atthe New Normal Big Life podcast.
I hope one day to see you onthe river, in the back country
or in the horse barn living yourbest life.
Tag new normal big life ornnblblog on social media so we
(52:36):
can celebrate your good healthand big life.
If you're a visual learner, youcan watch an informative and
entertaining version of thisvideo on YouTube on the New
Normal Big Life channel.
Share this episode with someonewho needs it, comment on our
posts and drop us a message oremail Nothing too personal or
specific when you have a healthor adventure sports topic you
(52:58):
want us to cover and supportothers in this community Since
2012,.
Speaker 3 (53:02):
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new, normal big life masculinity is trashed.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Men are cracking.
For a decade the world slamgrit, strength, boys being boys,
calling it toxic, rot.
Research flips it.
Traditional masculinity liftsspirits, shields minds.
Yet toxic masculinity thelabels are scarring kids and
crushing men's souls.
This is masculinity bashedTruth fights back, unpacking the
(00:31):
war on men and cheering what'sgood in every masculine heart.
Listen up, we're shredding thelies and arming you with proof.
Take back manhood.
Expert quotes on this subject.
Ai's got the mic.
I'm an IT junkie braced forsome next level nerd magic.
Hi friends, welcome to the newnormal big life podcast.
(00:53):
We bring you natural news andstories about nature that we
hope will inspire you to getoutside and adventure, along
with a step-by-step plan to helpyou practice what you've
learned and create your own newnormal and live the biggest life
you can dream.
I'm your host.
Antoinette Lee, the wellnesswarrior, heads up.
This episode dives into middlehealth struggles that might hit
(01:15):
close to home or feel heavy forsome.
Take care of yourself.
Skip or pause if you need.
If you don't identify with thetraditional masculine archetype,
you might not see yourselfreflected in this episode.
While all character typescontribute value to a civilized
modern society, this piecespecifically addresses
traditional masculinity.
(01:36):
However, the content heredoesn't aim to cast any negative
light on other character traits.
In researching this article, Inoticed a significant lack of
positive or supportive contentabout masculine men and boys
published since 2015.
For nearly a decade,masculinity has been frequently
criticized, which has had adetrimental effect on many men
(01:56):
and boys.
This episode blasts themasculinity bashing, cheering
every rugged edge, whiletorching the toxic lie that's
choking men.
Here's what the researcherssaid about masculinity, men's
mental health and how toxicmasculinity as a label is
detrimental to men, boys andsociety.
(02:17):
The concept of toxic masculinityreflects a broader societal
attempt to critique certainbehaviors traditionally
associated with masculinity,like playing rough sports or not
expressing emotions openly.
However, labeling these traitsas inherently problematic or
even pathological can lead tomisunderstanding and
(02:38):
stigmatization of typical malebehavior.
Since the 1930s, with theintroduction of the linguistic
relativity hypothesis byBenjamin Worf, we've understood
that language doesn't justdescribe our world, but actively
shapes it.
When we label behaviors ortraits as toxic masculinity,
(02:59):
we're not just identifying a setof behaviors.
We're framing how society viewsand treats boys and men.
This framing can reinforcestereotypes, suggesting there's
something inherently wrong withboys for engaging in activities
or behaviors that are culturallynormative or a norm for them
Rather than recognizing these aspart of a spectrum of human
(03:21):
behavior.
It's important to differentiatebetween critiquing harmful
behaviors and pathologizingnormal developmental stages or
expressions of masculinity.
Recognizing this distinctioncan help in fostering a more
nuanced discussion about gendernorms and encourage positive
masculinity traits, whileaddressing truly harmful
(03:44):
behaviors without alienating orshaming individuals for their
natural inclinations.
Happiness researcher Dr SonjaLubomirsky's research suggests
that quote this much happinessup to 40 percent is within our
power to change.
End quote.
So if we extrapolate the model,according to Dr Lubomirsky's
(04:05):
model, 50% of our happiness isdetermined by genetics, which
can be influenced by 40% of ourlife choices, while the
remaining 10% is shaped by ourenvironment, the things that
happen to us.
Consider a masculine man or boygrowing up in a violent,
hopeless urban environment onthe south side of Chicago or a
(04:27):
West Virginia holler whereaccess to opportunities that
contribute to happiness andsuccess in the American society
is limited.
This individual starts like 10%behind on the success curve due
to these environmental factors,a disadvantage imposed by
societal structures.
Now, if we consider that 50% ofwhat defines these men includes
(04:49):
certain character traits thatsociety might label negatively
are inherited.
These inherited traits, whichcan be turned on or off by
certain factors adds anotherlayer of challenge.
Regardless of race, income orother societal labels, these
masculine individuals fromchallenging environments are
then at a combined 60%disadvantage.
(05:11):
How can we as a society expectthese men and boys from
difficult environments to catchup and demonstrate the best of
masculine traits by makingbetter life choices, with only
40% of their human potentialpositively impacted?
This expectation seemsunrealistic without addressing
(05:31):
the systemic issues thatcontribute to their initial
disadvantage.
To truly support theseindividuals at becoming their
best selves, we have to considercomprehensive societal changes
that produce better educationaland job opportunities, also
community acceptance andcompassion and fostering an
environment where positivemasculine characteristics can
(05:53):
thrive in individuals fromchallenging backgrounds.
When we come back, we'll take alook at what the American
Psychological Association offersits professionals and its
guidelines.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
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Speaker 2 (07:32):
Welcome back.
We're examining what theAmerican Psychological
Association, the APA, offers itsprofessionals as guidelines.
In 2018, the APA publishedguidelines titled quote APA
Guidelines for PsychologicalPractice with Boys and Men end
quote which aim to assistpsychologists in providing
effective, evidence-based careto male clients.
(07:54):
The APA says these guidelinesdraw upon over 40 years of
research indicating thattraditional masculinity can be
psychologically harmful,particularly when it leads to
the suppression of emotions.
The guidelines encouragepsychologists to help boys and
men navigate the pressures ofconforming to restrictive
(08:16):
national masculine norms in waysthat promote mental health and
well-being.
According to the APA, whiletraits associated with
masculinity like courage,strength and leadership can be
positive, certain masculinenorms such as stoicism,
competitiveness, dominance andaggression, when taken to
extremes, can lead to negativeoutcomes.
(08:37):
Only the phrase when taken toextremes is often overlooked,
and much of society has come toview any form of masculine male
expression as a toxic sicknessto be wiped out of our culture.
These masculine norms the APAdiscussed include reluctance to
seek help for mental healthissues, higher rates of violence
(08:59):
, substance abuse and suicideamong men.
The guidelines stress theimportance of psychologists
recognizing their own biases,promoting healthy relationships
and encouraging men and boys toexpress a broader range of
emotions, but the guidelineshave spoke considerable
discussion, with some praisingthe APA for addressing an
(09:20):
overlooked area, while otherscriticize it for potentially
pathologizing masculinity.
This reflects a broadersocietal conversation on how to
approach masculinity in a waythat supports mental health
without reinforcing negativestereotypes.
Let's look at the intent forthe American Psychological
(09:40):
Association's guidelines.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
APA Guidelines for Psychological Practice with Boys
and Men.
Professional practiceguidelines are statements that
suggest or recommend specificprofessional behavior, endeavor
or conduct for psychologists.
Guidelines differ fromstandards in that standards are
mandatory and may be accompaniedby an enforcement mechanism.
Thus, guidelines areaspirational in intent and they
(10:04):
are intended to facilitate thecontinued systematic development
of the profession to helpassure a high level of
professional practice bypsychologists.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
That perspective is compelling.
However, from my personalexperiences with masculine men
and boys, both through familyfriends as well as my
philanthropic work as thefounder of the American
Adventure Sports Club, it'sclear that society has, in many
ways, inflicted significant harmon masculine men and boys.
This harm is not justincidental, but seems to be
(10:34):
perpetuated by influentialinstitutions like the APA, media
outlets, government policies,psychologists and educational
systems.
These entities have influencedpublic perception and behavior,
encouraging a broader societalconformity to narratives that
might not fully appreciate orunderstand the value of
(10:55):
traditional masculinity.
Rather than offering support tomasculine men and boys who
might be struggling with issuesrelated to negative behaviors,
these guidelines have, in someinterpretations, including my
own, pathologized all masculinemen and boys.
This approach has led to over adecade of cultural content and
societal behaviors that havesignaled, both in America and
(11:18):
globally, that traditionalmasculine traits are unwelcome
or problematic.
Traditional masculine traitsare unwelcome or problematic.
This widespread messaging haspotentially alienated men and
boys, making them feelmarginalized within their own
societies.
Like me, many psychologists andcritics argue that the AP's
guidelines on masculinity mightbe harmful to masculine men and
(11:40):
boys for several reasons.
There's a concern that theguidelines can be interpreted as
pathologizing normal masculinetraits.
Critics worry that by focusingon the negative aspects of
traditional masculinity, theguidelines might inadvertently
suggest that being masculine isinherently problematic.
This could lead to boys and menfeeling that their natural
(12:01):
behaviors and inclinations arebeing criticized or seen as
needing correction, potentiallyaffecting their self-esteem and
identity development.
Secondly, some psychologistsbelieve that the guidelines
might not adequately adjust thebalance between critiquing
harmful behaviors associatedwith masculinity and celebrating
(12:22):
its positive aspects.
While the guidelines dopositive traits like leadership
and courage, the emphasis onaddressing the negative outcomes
of traditional masculinitycould overshadow these.
Critics argue that thisimbalance might lead to a skewed
perception where all forms ofmasculinity are viewed through a
negative lens, potentiallyalienating men who identify with
(12:46):
traditional masculine roles ordiscouraging them for seeking
psychological help for fear ofbeing judged.
This debate highlights thecomplexity of discussing
(13:08):
masculinity in a way thatpromotes mental health without
reinforcing stereotypes orcausing unintended harm.
Area for her perspective on thetoxic masculinity label and its
impact on masculine men andboys, as well as how she
interprets and uses the APAguidelines in her practice.
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Speaker 2 (15:08):
Our guest in the new normal big life podcast today is
Amy Barofato, LMFT, CFT,Licensed Marriage and Family
Therapist and Certifiedcertified sex therapist.
Hi, Amy, welcome to the show.
Tell us a little bit about yourpractice and therapy
experiences with supportingmasculine men and boys in
treatment.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
Hi, antoinette, thanks for having me.
Glad to be here.
Good to talk with you.
Thank you for that.
Yes, I am.
I'm a therapist in privatepractice in Chicago.
I have been doing clinical workwith adults, couples and
families for about 18 years nowand I am currently in just
(15:49):
making the move into soloprivate practice on my own to
see.
I mostly work with adultindividuals and couples, working
on a variety of relationshipissues Individual mental health,
emotional well-being, treatingdepression, anxiety, stress
management and then relationallycommunication, conflict
(16:11):
resolution, emotion regulation,emotional and physical
connection with the people inyour life.
It's hard not to address familyof origin, work and your
background, because where wecome from is, you know,
obviously impacts who we are andhow we are, the way we are and
I really love the work that I door my initial thought is about
(16:34):
that gender stereotypes arereally harmful, like a huge
broad gender stereotype for menor women, but I think
particularly for men is harmfuland not helpful.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Why so?
I'm sure you'll get into thislater, but why so, mm?
Speaker 6 (16:48):
hmm, well, I think I mean, if you're operating out of
a judgment or an assumption of,maybe, how someone is, based on
what they look like, or howthey talk, or how quiet they are
, or how strong, how strong,physically strong they appear,
there's not, it's just we caneasily make assumptions of what
(17:10):
that means when it's notnecessarily true.
And so, um, I, I mean we'rehuman beings, we kind of do that
naturally.
But I mean I'll notice thatwith a client that I'm meeting
for the first time, I mightmaybe have a thought of what I
kind of expect this to be like,and I'm constantly surprised by
(17:32):
like that.
That's not how I thought thiswould go, and this is like so
much more open and vulnerablethan I originally thought was
possible, which is great that'sinteresting.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Do you have much opportunity to use the APA
guidelines for psychologicalpractice with boys and men in
your practice?
If so, how do you use it?
If not, why?
Speaker 6 (17:51):
I appreciate what they're trying to do, I think,
is to combat the genderedstereotype of traditional
masculinity or whatever's maybe,again, stereotypically harmful
about it.
But that is not in my opinion.
That's not masculinity.
Masculinity is different fromtoxic masculinity, which I
(18:12):
believe is your point too, thatI want us to be addressing the
toxic behaviors within yourselfand also in your relationships,
less so about your masculinityand what that means and says
about you, because that isharmful for that person, for
their relationships, for howthey feel about themselves.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Amy, I think the real question listeners want
answered is your interpretationof my rant on how awful and
harmful we've treated masculinemen and boys in the past 10
years.
So what are your thoughts?
Speaker 6 (18:45):
I have a few thoughts .
So first, I can appreciate myunderstanding.
You have a lot of experiencejust like talking to and
interacting with men from allwalks of life and so, um, and I
also I really appreciate that myexperience talking with men and
(19:05):
women about their feelings,their families, their dynamics
and the hard stuff is a reallyprivileged like that I'm.
It's an honor for me to be apart of that space, and so my
thought is that I work with alot of men who are who have
never been taught how to talkabout feelings, understand what
(19:27):
they are, know how it feels, howto express them better.
Depending on your family systemand where you come from,
depending on your family systemand where you come from, there
might be a lot of limits, or notjust limits, but like negative
responses to who you are, howyou are, how you present, how
you behave, etc.
That I think a lot of folkswind up either internalizing and
(19:51):
then I often see that it comesout in relationships sometimes
so like, like, like,internalizing your feelings.
The impact of that on yourpartner is not always great.
They don't know how you reallyfeel or they're only seeing the
anger when you're upset aboutsomething as opposed to the
other stuff that's underneath.
And so I work with a lot of theimpact, the impact of how you
(20:17):
are with emotion, your emotionand well-being in ways that I
think could probably behealthier and in a situation
where there is one person in arelationship who maybe is
struggling with their feelings.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I've noticed this even in my female friends that
some women aren't good atgetting to anything that's real.
They keep everything verysuperficial, like what's going
on with work or school or kidsor partner, or just light things
like shopping and fashion,which I'm not really interested
(20:53):
in, and they're also strugglingto get to deep, meaningful
connection.
So I can appreciate although Idon't have this situation in my
relationship with a man in mylife I can appreciate how all
human beings, but especially men, in this time where everyone is
(21:14):
so judgy and so ready to be tofeel triggered and angry and and
attack someone that it could bedifficult to express your
feelings.
But you give us one strategy wecould use or something we could
say at home.
If we're dealing with a friendor partner who maybe isn't ready
(21:36):
to open up to us and and we'rereally feeling like I really
need you to talk to me.
So I understand what'shappening in our dynamic, what's
one thing that we could do?
Speaker 6 (21:47):
That's a great question.
Two thoughts pop up for me.
One is the more neutral andopen your response is to
whatever like, instead of beingreactive to like why don't you
ever talk to me?
That's not going to helpsomeone talk to you.
So if you can just say like oh,okay, and then ask.
Second thing, asking a questionthat's more of a vertical
(22:10):
question, which is a little bitdeeper, like the why or the how
or like tell me, like wait, orthe how or like.
Tell me like wait, what do youmean by that?
Can you tell me a little moreabout like how did you, how do
you mean?
Or why what?
Like what makes you think that,as opposed to just what did you
say, it's just there's a littlebit more depth to it which and
(22:31):
if I'm being neutral and I justwant to hear what you have to
say it makes it feel safe orsafer just want to hear what you
have to say.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
It makes it feel safe or safer.
I think that is absolutely thekey feeling safe, to be open, to
be vulnerable.
How would it look in atreatment setting when the
therapist is using the APAguidelines to help boys and men
navigate the pressures ofconforming to traditional
masculine norms and ways thatpromote mental health and
well-being?
End quote.
For example, if I were Anthonyfrom Around the Way, a masculine
(23:02):
man, how would you approachhelping me to navigate the
pressures of masculine norms?
Speaker 6 (23:07):
One of my goals, actually one of the main goals
in therapy that I have withfolks, is just for them to have
a slightly different experienceof a conversation than they
would somewhere else.
So, for instance, if someone isnew to therapy and has never
been, I'll ask a little bitabout how they feel about being
(23:28):
here, cause there's usuallymaybe a little some nerves or
maybe fear of being judged orthis is kind of uncomfortable or
like we're ready to go.
I've just never done thisbefore, don't know what to
expect, and so my approach,again, it's pretty neutral and
like in teaching that, oh,talking about your life, your
(23:49):
feelings, your partner, yourfamily and what that's like for
you is actually not so bad andit's safe and we can do that,
and, and I think that and thenwhen we walk the walk a little
bit in other sessions, theremight be a little bit more,
something more open, like I'm.
My hope is that I'm teaching ormodeling that vulnerable
(24:10):
expression of feelings is a goodthing and it's healthy and it's
okay.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
I love that, that's awesome Assistant Professor of
Marketing at New York UniversityStern School of Business, Adam
Alter, confirmed what I heardfrom kids at Adventure Camp In
his book Drunk Tank, Pink andOther Unexpected Forces that
Shape how we Think, Feel andBehave.
Alter's book and researchfocused on the sometimes
(24:37):
surprising effects of subtleenvironmental cues on human
cognition or human understandingand behavior.
Speaker 7 (24:44):
Hi, I'm the AI representation of author and
researcher Adam Alter.
Researchers began to study thecognitive effects of labeling in
the 1930s, when linguistBenjamin Horf proposed the
linguistic relativity hypothesis.
According to his hypothesis,the words we use to describe
what we see aren't just idleplaceholders they determine what
we see.
The long-term consequences oflabeling a child smart or slow
(25:08):
are profound.
Labeling isn't always a causefor concern.
It can sometimes be beneficial.
It would be impossible tocatalog the information we
process during our lives withoutthe aid of labels like friendly
, scary, tasty and harmful, forexample.
However, it's important torecognize that the people we
(25:29):
label as black, white, rich,poor, smart and simple seem
blacker, whiter, richer, poorer,smarter and simpler merely
because we've labeled them.
So, in light of Adam Alter'sinsights into the power of
labels to shape perception andbehavior, it's crucial to
(25:50):
consider how these conceptsapply to broader societal issues
, such as the discussion onmasculinity.
Labels like toxic masculinitycan have profound effects on how
we view and treat men and boys.
Just as Alter describes howlabels can amplify certain
characteristics, the term toxicmasculinity might inadvertently
(26:11):
reinforce negative stereotypes,potentially overshadowing the
positive aspects of masculinitytypes, potentially overshadowing
the positive aspects ofmasculinity.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
This brings us back to our guest, Amy.
What are your thoughts on AdamAlter's warning to carefully
apply labels because they mightinfluence personal development
and societal expectations of menand boys?
And how can an adult patient orthe parent of a boy judge when
a therapist might have a biasagainst masculine men and boys?
How would that look intreatment?
How can a patient recognizebias in therapy and what should
(26:44):
they do about it?
Should they talk about it withtheir therapist?
If so, how can they tactfullybring it up?
Or should they just find adifferent therapist?
Because what I'm hearing frommasculine men and boys is they
would never talk to a therapistthese days because they believe
they'll be told there'ssomething wrong with being
masculine.
Speaker 6 (27:02):
That's an important.
That's an important question.
I think there's a few layersthere, um one.
So, depending on the um, onceyou have a bit of rapport in the
room in session, um, like, if Ilike, if I say something and it
maybe doesn't land well withsomeone, if they're able to come
(27:22):
and tell me that, like hey,when you used that word, or like
there was a way that you saidthat that didn't sit right which
is a very vulnerable thing todo, by the way to come back and
say, hey, I didn't like, whatdid you mean by that?
Or and I may have had no ideathat there was like a bit of a
misstep there that then we cantalk openly about, maybe repair
(27:44):
the trust if there was a bit ofa fracture there.
And also it would be anopportunity for me to learn a
little bit of the history, maybehow.
That would open me up to asklike, oh, have other people
maybe made judgments of you ormaybe used language like that
that wasn't helpful?
Tell me more, what was thatlike in your family?
And then I have more context togo off of and I can shift my
(28:08):
language so we can continueworking together and
establishing trust.
And if you asked if should theytalk to their therapist about
it, the more honest that you canbe in in session again.
If you have the rapport withthe person, their response to
you also says a lot, like ifsomeone's open to feedback or
(28:30):
like, oh, I had no idea that.
Uh, that that wasn't great.
Thank you for telling me.
Or if they double down anddefend what they said and why
they said it, that's goodinformation for what might or
might not be a great fit for youanyway.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
I think that's going to be very helpful to a lot of
people, especially if they'renew to therapy.
Speaker 6 (28:49):
Yeah, your feelings with.
There's a lot of research onthat your feelings about fit
with your therapist is actuallylike the biggest indicator for
long-term success in therapy,and so I would hate for anyone
to feel judged or condescendedto or like disrespected in there
that that's not going to create, that doesn't foster an
environment of growth andlearning and change and honesty.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
It sounds like the person in treatment should trust
their gut feeling about whatkind of vibe they're getting
from their therapist.
Would that be accurate?
Speaker 6 (29:22):
It would.
Yes, I really trust intuitive.
You know your energy and whatyou're listening to inside you
is usually telling you something, and so I'm all about listening
to that, me too.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I'm all about listening to that, Me too.
So how did we arrive at thispoint in time where society's
begun to vilify masculinity inboys and men, all in an attempt
to enhance the lives of women,queer individuals and men who
don't conform to traditionalmasculine norms?
Let's explore the culturalshifts and the unintended
consequences of this movement toso-called help men be better
(29:57):
humans.
According to Michael Flood,professor of sociology,
Queensland University ofTechnology, the term masculinity
was unknown in the 1990s andearly 2000s, but since around
2015, it's become common indiscussions of men and gender.
It was interesting, as myresearch shows, that most recent
(30:18):
article that I could find insupport of masculinity, men and
boys was written in 2015.
The origins of toxic masculinityare interesting.
The mythopoetic men's movementyes, you heard that right
mythopoetic men's movement was asignificant cultural phenomenon
in the United States from early1980s through the 1990s,
(30:40):
focusing on redefiningmasculinity through a blend of
mythology, psychology andspirituality.
This movement, spearheaded byfigures like a man named Shepard
Bliss, aimed to redefinemasculinity by distinguishing
between deep or real masculinityand its toxic counterpart.
Toxic masculinity was describedas a set of norms that include
(31:05):
aggression, dominance andemotional repression, which are
harmful to men and those aroundthem.
According to Schaeffer Bliss,Over time the phrase was used to
address societal issues likeviolence, sexism and emotional
disconnect.
It's done often at the expenseof recognizing the positive and
encouraging aspects ofmasculinity.
(31:25):
As a biological woman meaning Iwas born a woman I can only
share my perspective and theremight be a bias in my masculine
characteristic preferences.
A man who exhibits strongprotective energy can be very
appealing to me as a friend orpartner.
I lift 100 pounds without helpon my rule property all the time
(31:46):
.
I'm self-reliant and I foughtoff an attacker with my own two
hands.
So a partner who is physically,mentally and emotionally
stronger than me, that's veryappealing and it's what I'm
attractive to.
This preference stems from adeep state of comfort that
knowing, in a world that canfeel dangerous and overwhelming,
I have someone who can stand bymy side, literally and
(32:07):
figuratively.
For instance, when I'm on abackcountry adventure,
whitewater kayaking or icefishing, if I were to find
myself in a situation where Icouldn't protect myself or save
myself, or from falling throughthe ice, for example, it's
comforting to know that mypartner would be there, capable
and ready to help me.
My father was a masculine man,happily married with my mother
(32:29):
for 54 years.
My guy, Matthew, and all myclosest ride or die friends are
all masculine men.
These men in my life display afull spectrum of human emotions.
They're always there when youneed them, providing emotional
support, assistance andprotection.
Moreover, they demonstrate bothprofessionalism and personal
(32:52):
integrity in all aspects oftheir lives, and integrity means
doing the right thing even whenno one's watching of their
lives, and integrity means doingthe right thing even when no
one's watching.
The masculine man in my life,Matt, and our friends took care
of me after surgery.
They showed up with homemadebreads and foods they cook for
themselves at home.
They comforted and reassured mebefore whitewater kayaking in
(33:15):
big, scary water and theyrescued me when I swam out of my
boat.
And then they reminded me ofeverything I did well that day.
Nothing toxic about thesemasculine men.
Meeting Matt, a mentally,physically and emotionally
strong masculine man, on awhitewater kayaking camping trip
led to my best relationshipever.
Our shared values and adventuresports lifestyle match well
with areas.
(33:36):
We're very different.
I'm fortunate to live, work andrecreate with my best friend,
Matt in a cabin in the woods.
His high emotional intelligencewas a great asset during the
early days of the COVID lockdown, when no one knew what to
expect.
While many others faced theearly days of the COVID lockdown
with social media postsreflecting a lack of
(33:56):
preparedness for hard times anda breakdown of mental health and
intimate relationships,Meanwhile, Matt and I thrived.
Critics of masculine men oftenoverlook that someone like Matt
dedicates his free time tovolunteering, sharing his
expertise in kayak and fishingwith children and adults and
people from diverse backgrounds,including those from low-income
(34:18):
households, individuals withdisabilities, seniors,
regardless of gender identity.
Instead of recognizing hiscontributions, they quickly
label him and men like him asexhibiting toxic masculinity
just for showing up.
Society fails to appreciate thetrue value of the masculine
(34:38):
male character.
Historically, whencivilizations like Rome began to
weaken, it was often due to adecline in military strength and
civic virtue among their men,which also spread to boys, girls
and women.
This decline left everyonevulnerable to external invasions
and internal decay, Kind oflike the US right now.
The loss of vigoroushealthiness among men, women,
(35:02):
girls and boys significantlycontributed to the eventual
downfall of these once powerfulsocieties, as G's Michael Hoff
famously said.
Speaker 7 (35:12):
Hard times create strong men.
Strong men create good times.
Good times create weak men andweak men create hard times.
Read by the AI-generated voiceof G Michael Hoff.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
As character traits like flight flight or fawn
begging not to be harmed in adangerous situation were
celebrated and encouraged in menand boys.
Today we see unsafe communities, geopolitical instability and
economically challenging timesas a result of the demonization
and decline of masculine men andother complex cultural and
(35:45):
political and economic issues.
When criminals and predators,male and female, believe there
are no mentally and physicallystrong people to intervene,
they're emboldened towardaggression and criminality.
You only need to scroll throughsocial media to see the facts
before you.
Here's an example amongchildren In 2023, at a
(36:06):
recreation center eventsponsored by a Colorado
municipality for youths age 8 to12, boys came home and reported
they were groped and kissed bygirls without consent and they
were asked by 8 to 20-year-oldgirls to sneak away to other
parts of the building for sex.
The sexualization of childrenand the breakdown of traditional
(36:28):
roles have led to societaldecline, with even our children
are preying on each other, justlike in the final days of Rome
and other cultures.
Men and boys aren't the onlypredators, they're not the only
people capable of violence andcriminal behavior, and they're
not the only people who don'twant to talk about their
feelings either.
Have you tried talking with ateen girl or a millennial woman
(36:51):
about her feelings lately?
Was that a vulnerable, calm andrational conversation?
However, we've villainized andpathologized masculine men and
boys for 10 years.
During a CPR class to preparefor an adventure camp at the
nonprofit, my guy, matt, and Ifounded.
Young women of color and whitewomen were initially dismissive
(37:13):
towards Matt, but when theyrealized he was with me, an
Afro-Latina, their demeanorchanged and they softened toward
him.
It was as if their initialjudgment of you're just another
toxic masculine man exertingwhite privilege why are you even
in my space, even though hehadn't said a word yet?
The white woman's initialreaction to white to Matt, who's
(37:35):
also white was silentlyretracted as they reassessed him
through a new lens because he'swith a Black woman.
My heart breaks to see howmasculine men and boys are
shunned from society.
Over the past 10 years, someboys at our free adventure
sports club and annual adventurecamp said this what kids told
their camp counselors.
Speaker 8 (37:58):
I don't know what people's faces are telling me.
I don't want to talk about mypronouns, can't I just be a kid
and forget about that stuff?
My teacher wants me to act likea girl and I don't want to
because I'm a boy.
My mother got the COVID vaccineand she's always sick.
Now Is she gonna be okay?
I don't remember what it's liketo play with other kids.
(38:20):
I'm glad I'm at camp becauselast week I was thinking about
different ways to kill myself,but I don't want to do that
anymore.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
After four days at camp, parents reported a
noticeable improvement in theirchild's mood, behavior and
school performance.
We emphasize teaching kidsoutdoor skills like archery,
kayaking and paddle boardingthrough a challenge-by-choice
model and group therapy sessionsduring campfire talks.
Try this with your kids anddrop us a comment if you want to
(38:52):
learn more about preparing yourchild for sleep away camp.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
In an upcoming podcast, virtual Signaling PSYOP
Exposed.
Researchers say labeling andvirtual signaling creates
loneliness, and loneliness makespeople vulnerable, says dr gene
twinge.
Author of ijen twinge's thesissays angry, isolated individuals
(39:17):
are easier to controlpolitically, economically and
socially.
A divided society finds itself,not the puppet masters who's
trying to manipulate yourbehavior for their own reasons,
like scrolling content onlineand gaming for hours and buying
things you don't need.
So look for this episodewherever you get your podcasts.
Here's what clinicalpsychologist Megan Mobs had to
(39:40):
say about the AmericanPsychological Association's
guidelines and how it's harmfulto men and boys.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
This population deserves our care and attention.
Masculine men deserveguidelines so we can deliver
effective treatment.
They don't deserve labels.
In labeling traditionalmasculinity as harmful, we begin
to see traditionally masculinemen as harmful.
The truth that we seem loatheto admit is that we need men and
women capable of enacting harmon others in times of war.
(40:10):
So maybe a better place tobegin is by shaming any and all
toxic behavior, and not thegender in which it originates.
The AI-generated voice ofpsychologist Megan Mobbs.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
When we come back, we'll talk with our expert
guests about what researchersand authors notice, about how
traditional masculine traits areincreasingly scrutinized and
shunned.
Before we cover the next topicin this episode, I want to
introduce you to the adventuresports lifestyle with what I
like to call a micro story aboutan adventure I've had.
The adventure sports lifestyleand my deep connection to nature
(40:45):
is essential to my good health.
Sports lifestyle and my deepconnection to nature is
essential to my good health.
So here's the story.
On a rafting trip with friendson the Frank Trich River of no
Return in Salmon, idaho, on asmall beach in a stretch of
wilderness so remote an EMSrescue is dangerous and might
not be attempted.
Lying in my tent and nearlydrifting off to sleep, I
suddenly couldn't breathe,knowing there was no chance of
(41:08):
help coming.
I focused on deep breathing,deeply, taking air through my
nose and exhaling fully throughmy nose again to calm myself.
The river was deafening and Icould feel it metaphorically
pulling me into its cold waters.
I surrendered to it.
It was physically painful andscary, but on the other side of
(41:30):
the experience I felt healedfrom a trauma that plagued me
for four decades.
The river pulled out thetraumatic remnants of what I
couldn't let go, and I amforever changed.
I did that.
I hope this inspires you to getoutside and adventure alone
with friends or the folks youlove the most.
Now back to our discussion onthe harmful effects of the toxic
(41:53):
male label with Amy Riafano.
Amy, what insights can youoffer the audience on the
concept of modern societiesneeding masculine men and boys
to thrive as a culture in acountry, and how can we really
learn to appreciate masculinity?
How would that look within aculture and a country?
And how can we relearn toappreciate masculinity?
How would that look within afamily and a community.
Speaker 6 (42:11):
I'm thinking about this a lot in the in some of
what you just shared.
I really think a lot of thisalso stems from some
self-awareness, like a reallydeep sense of self-awareness,
because, like I said, in yourrelationships again with partner
, friends, colleagues, familymembers, how you speak to them,
(42:35):
the kinds of actions you take,how you are behaviorally, how
you communicate your feelings ordon't, does impact how they
feel, you know.
(43:00):
So, being aware of the factthat, even if I'm someone who is
not as forthright about myfeelings and I tend to be more
quiet, I just want to be able toacknowledge with empathy,
stepping outside of myself andthat might be hard for you too
and so I think some of thelimits on in some of those more
toxic behaviors are a lack ofself-awareness and a lack of
empathy and sometimes a lack ofwillingness to do it differently
(43:23):
, to like a real stubbornnessabout it, that that doesn't feel
very good in a relationshipwhen we're trying to work on
things together, you know.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
It seems like if I put myself in the man's position
, it often seems like in a man'smind, he might have a
preconception of what it meansto be a man and could be
thinking that if I am behavingin a way that's different from
(43:54):
how my partner wants me to be,it's because, especially if the
partner's a woman, she doesn'tunderstand me because she's not
a woman.
And so I wonder if it might behelpful because I've had this
conversation with my partner,matt it might be helpful to talk
about what it means to be awoman for me and what it means
(44:17):
to be a man for him, that thosequestions or conversations came
up because we spend a lot oftime together recreating, or
conversations came up because wespend a lot of time together
recreating.
So there are no screens, no TV,and if you're tired of reading
a book, you actually talk toeach other.
So we have had conversationsabout what does it mean to be a
(44:40):
man, what does it mean to be awoman, and my recommendations is
that you don't have thatconversation with someone when
you want something from them.
So if you want your husband,for example, to talk to you, you
don't bring up.
Well, what does it mean to be aman and then open up to me and
tell me how you feel, because itcould feel like you're beating
(45:01):
him into conflict.
So can you talk about some waysthat when you're not having a
conflict or when you're notactively trying to get someone
to talk to you, what could yousay to them to kind of draw them
out, to let them know that it'sa safe space, to let them know
that, no matter what they tellyou, you're still going to love
(45:23):
them, you're still going torespect them and and you're
creating a safe environmentwithin your relationship?
How would that look in practice?
Speaker 6 (45:34):
Yeah, I like that question too, because you're
guiding.
I think it's really importantto speak for yourself about your
own experience of being a man.
What is the masculinity whereyou are on the spectrum of that,
maybe limits of what that'slike, or what it's been like to
be a man, same for a woman, whatit's like to be a woman, et
(45:57):
cetera.
So you can understand eachother's unique personal
experience in those bodies withthat gender that you identify
with, as opposed to what you'rethinking stereotypically, which
again we fall into that.
But there's lots of potentialto learn and grow better, which
I think can then open up more,more possibility for some
(46:21):
empathy between you, somethingI've learned.
Brene Brown talks about this inher work.
She talks a lot about empathy.
The root of empathy is actuallynot just your ability to
understand where someone else iscoming from.
It actually has everything todo with your own ability to sit
with and understand your ownfeelings, and so if someone has
(46:45):
a hard time doing that or wouldrather not, or feelings aren't
safe or that's a weakness orwhatever that means to you,
that's going to influence howyou might be able to empathize
with your partner who is tellingyou that they're struggling or
that they didn't like how youjust said the thing that you
just said.
You know like you're building areal confidence from the inside
(47:08):
, but it's more emotionallywhole because it's based in your
own feelings, you know Wow.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
That's really powerful because it reminds me
of situations where I've had totell friends who are coming to
me for relationship advice andI've said to a few people who
didn't like me that muchafterward but I believe in
telling people the truth and ifI tell people the truth with
compassion and if they can'thandle it, then I just stopped
(47:36):
telling you the truth.
I'll just tell you what youwant it.
Well, it depends.
I might stop being your friendafter that, but if you're a good
friend for a long time and Iknow you're someone who can't
handle the truth that you'rereally just looking for an amen
corner like yep, you're so right, I won't be your amen corner
when I think you're wrong, butI'll just zip it.
But sometimes I have to tellfriends, when they're asking my
(48:01):
advice, that the best advice Ican give them is stop trying to
fix your partner, because that'spreventing you from looking at
all of the things in your ownbehavior.
Speaker 6 (48:13):
That's contributing to why the two of you are not
getting along Exactly, which isback to self-awareness, owning
your part in an interaction withsomeone, which is also where
learning how to express yourselflike can come in handy.
We're all entitled to ourfeelings.
We are not entitled to expressthem however we want to Like.
(48:37):
There are ways of communicatingand expressing anger that are
healthy, that also don't hurtpeople, that are also intense
and like a really healthy, thatare also intense and like a
really healthy, like big outlets, and also not harmful, not
aggressive, not at anyone else'sexpense, and so I teach a lot
of that in sessions as well,like expressing it in ways that
(49:00):
people can hear.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Oh, that's so rich.
Express it in ways that peoplecan hear.
Speaker 6 (49:20):
I love that.
How can we relearn toappreciate masculinity?
How would that look within asilver lining?
Focus on the positive kind ofway, but I mean celebrate the
strengths of you know, um.
Other masculine traits can belike devotion to work
traditionally masculine traits,devotion to work, pride in your
athleticism, providing for yourfamily, taking care of yourself
(49:42):
so you can take care of otherpeople.
There are a lot of strengths inthat, and so I'm a big fan of
highlighting what's so greatabout that and how, like, if I'm
in a relationship with someone,I would highlight that I
benefit, like I get to do what Ido because of the things that
you do too, which is great.
And then I would also reallyhighlight if, um, if you, if
(50:04):
someone struggles with beingvulnerable and letting their
guard down, like showing thesofter side, more vulnerable
feelings, I would highlight howstrong that is to me to hear
that, to see that, because it'sreally powerful, and I want to
show you that it is not onlysafe but celebrated to do that.
So more of that, please.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
You know I love that and I actually do that, and you
know, I thank Matt for beingvulnerable with me and let him
know that I'm honored that hechose me because he has friends,
he has family, he has lots ofother people he can talk to and
most often, I think he choosesto talk to me about things.
So I think that's wonderful,but I also let him know how much
(50:49):
I appreciate that and how muchit brings us closer together.
Thank you, amy Berrafato, forjoining us today for this
important discussion.
If you're in the Chagokagalanarea and you're looking for a
great therapist with an openperspective on men and boys,
among other things, you can findAmy Barifato online.
(51:09):
Amy, tell us how to reach youand who you serve.
Speaker 6 (51:13):
Thank you again for having me.
It's been a really enjoyableconversation.
Yes, you can find me online andmy contact info is on my
website, which iswwwamybarifatolmatocom.
Thank you so much, you'rewelcome.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
In closing, let's move beyond the toxic
masculinity narrative tocelebrate the positive
contributions of masculine menand boys in our lives.
By understanding the historicalcontext of the term toxic
masculinity, we can betterappreciate the need for a
balanced view that honors allaspects of gender identity.
(51:54):
Relationships thrive on mutualrespect, understanding and
celebrating each person's uniquequality, including those
traditionally seen as masculine.
Here's to masculinity, love andthe richness it brings to our
families and communities.
If you're getting value fromthis content, leave us a view
(52:15):
wherever you get your podcast tomake it easier for others to
find us.
Until next time, friends, I'myour host, deantoinette Lee,
your wellness warrior here atthe New Normal Big Life podcast.
I hope one day to see you onthe river, in the back country
or in the horse barn living yourbest life.
Tag new normal big life ornnblblog on social media so we
(52:36):
can celebrate your good healthand big life.
If you're a visual learner, youcan watch an informative and
entertaining version of thisvideo on YouTube on the New
Normal Big Life channel.
Share this episode with someonewho needs it, comment on our
posts and drop us a message oremail Nothing too personal or
specific when you have a healthor adventure sports topic you
(52:58):
want us to cover and supportothers in this community Since
2012,.
Speaker 3 (53:02):
The Health Ranger store has been answering your
calls for a trustworthy,responsive and affordable source
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