November 20, 2025 • 48 mins
What if the way back from trauma isn’t a single breakthrough, but a stack of small, stubborn habits that actually hold you up? We sit down with Navy veteran and author Kevin Macomber to trace a path from complex childhood trauma and Beirut-era deployments to breakdown, suicidality, and a hard-won recovery built on practical daily steps.
Macomber opens up about losing trust, withdrawing from the world, and slowly rebuilding with tools that require no perfection —j ust repetition. Journaling becomes a compass for messy minds, revealing patterns across hours and weeks. Nature does the quiet work that clinics can’t, as a hiking trail reawakens senses dulled by hyperarousal and numbness. We dig into choosing the right therapist, running your sessions with clear goals, and embracing discomfort as a sign the work is real. For the tough days — anniversaries, triggers, and headlines — Macomber shares breathing protocols, thought reframing, and movement cues that turn panic into plan.
We also get specific about food-as-mood: eliminating dirty carbs, cutting ultra-processed staples, and supporting gut health to stabilize energy, reduce anxiety, and lift the midday fog. On medication, Macomber offers a frank, balanced approach — why acute relief can be vital, how to plan off-ramps, what questions to ask in your doctor or therapist, and why bringing a trusted advocate to key appointments changes outcomes. Together we challenge
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
At that point, I had the opportunity to do more in
the PTSD advocacy.
And I just one day I said, youknow, I'm tired of hearing about
22 veterans killing themselvesevery day.
It's not getting better.
And if anything, it's probablygetting worse.
And so I started looking at it,and everything I saw pointed,
(00:20):
it's actually getting worse, butthey're not sharing the data.
So I said, okay, I'm just gonnago take those notes and gonna go
write a book.
That's literally all I did.
And so I sat down in a five,six-month period and wrote the
entire book on what I thoughtsomebody with PTSD or somebody
(00:40):
who may be a friend or a familymember of somebody with PTSD
would want to hear.
And I got it down to 16 topics.
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Hi friends, welcome to the New Normal Big Life
podcast.
We bring you natural news andstories about nature that we
hope will inspire you to getoutside an adventure, along with
a step-by-step plan to help youpractice what you've learned and
create your own new normal andlive the biggest life you can
dream.
I'm your host, Antoinette Lee,the wellness warrior.
Kevin McComer is an Americanauthor and advocate and Navy
(01:08):
veteran, known for his work inraising awareness about
post-traumatic stress disorder.
He penned the book Walking fromthe Shadows, My Journey with
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder,which details his personal
journey and strategies forhealing from trauma.
He aims to normalize discussionsabout mental health and reduce
the stigma surroundingpost-traumatic stress.
(01:29):
The book is written to be atrauma agnostic book focusing on
the healing process rather thanthe specific cause of trauma.
The book has been accepted byall four military academies and
estimates one million have heardthis message.
Kevin, welcome to New Normal BigLife.
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
Hey, thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (01:47):
Can you share a bit about your life before entering
the military?
What was your upbringing like?
What shaped you into the personyou were?
SPEAKER_00 (01:55):
That's interesting because that is actually part of
my trauma.
Today they refer to uh it asCPTSD.
Most people haven't heard that,but that means complex PTSD or
repeating traumas and uh events.
And I grew up uh in a verydysfunctional family.
(02:16):
Both my mother and my fatherwere both dysfunctional in
different ways, and they camefrom two very dysfunctional
families.
So uh my childhood was quitechaotic.
Uh for it may have been just Iwas adept enough when I was a
kid to say, hey, this isn't sogood.
So I spent much of my friend uhtime at friends' homes, and uh I
(02:37):
got some normalcy at theirhomes, but I did the best I
could to avoid my home.
By the time I was probably 15, Ibegan the process of talking to
recruiters, which is sort ofyoung.
And 16, I was actively engagedwith a marine recruiter.
Um, a couple months after I was17, I joined the Navy and I had
(02:57):
my mom sign me in uh so I couldgo on uh in early at a younger
age.
And so my childhood, I wanted toleave it in the past.
I want to leave my family in thepast and uh and move on.
And uh, you know, in some waysthat was a very mature thing to
do, though I don't know I fullygrasped it the time, you know,
what I was doing.
SPEAKER_01 (03:18):
Tell us about what experiences shaped your life in
the military and justimmediately after the military.
SPEAKER_00 (03:27):
Sure.
Well, um, to put in perspective,I went into the Navy in 1981,
and it was a very different Navythan it is today.
Uh, it was very difficult.
Uh, the equipment still at thatpoint, uh, they hadn't been
spending much.
I mean, they spent money duringthe Vietnam War, but overall,
the Navy was pretty beat up.
Uh, the equipment was old, itdidn't work well, and it was a
(03:50):
very difficult life thattranslated into a lot of extra
hours, working weekends, workingnights, and also a lot of
challenges.
Um, when we went out to a cruiseor we went patrolling, uh, we
frequently had issues and itmade for a very difficult life.
You really physically didn't getmuch of a break.
(04:12):
You were all always tired.
And for anybody who's everdeployed, and I've deployed
three times and for asignificant period of time, you
understand that you sort of geton a rotation of work, rest.
And in the Navy back in the day,you were probably only getting
about five hours rest a day.
And it wasn't necessarily alltogether.
Maybe every three weeks you gota period where you were getting
(04:34):
maybe five or six hours rest atone stretch.
But the others, it was brokenbecause you were shifting,
you're you're rotating your uhwatch.
And uh, so you you becamefatigued by that.
And then uh for me, I was sentto the Middle East.
I was part of the Beiruttheater.
It was extremely tenacious.
It was a very difficult, verydangerous uh place to be at.
SPEAKER_01 (04:57):
Well, the lack of sleep and the constant worry
about safety is a recipe fortrauma there.
You've mentioned a mentalbreakdown in the 90s.
Will you walk us through whatled to that moment and how it
impacted your life at the time?
SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
Yeah, you know, and there's the lesson here.
If you have had mental healthissues and you've been
traumatized a number of times,if you need help, get it.
I I, in hindsight, tried puttingthe pieces together.
I think I realized to somedegree I needed it.
Uh, but it was also a differenttime.
(05:33):
There wasn't a reference pointto this type of mental health.
People didn't talk about it.
There weren't resources.
So when I got out of themilitary, I jumped into college.
And uh my discipline, my workethic was tremendous.
I did it really, really well incollege.
Um, my grades were very high,worked a part-time job.
(05:54):
So between those two things, itkept me so busy that I ignored
the actual um situations I wasfacing from a mental health
perspective.
And then in my very late 20s, Iwent through a massive trauma
yet again.
And uh, you know, I'd been in anaccident, I had my my time in
the Middle East and on and on.
(06:15):
And I, in normal circumstances,it probably wouldn't have
cleaned somebody's clock like itdid mine, but it did because I
had not taken care of myself.
And so I didn't realize I was alot more vulnerable than I was,
and and it got to me and I justbroke down.
And I remember that day.
It was very confusing because,again, there wasn't a reference
(06:38):
point, what was going on, why mybody and my brain were both
doing what they were doing.
They basically were shuttingdown without you know, doing it
on its own.
It did it with, you know, here Iam here.
I could feel myself falling.
And sort of the experience Igive is I slipped on a wet floor
once, and I remember looking,and all of a sudden my feet were
(07:00):
above my eyes.
And uh it was sort of like thenboom.
And uh it was uh a lot likethat, that mental breakdown.
All of a sudden I said, Oh mygosh, what's happening to me?
And then I had a mentalbreakdown that went on for an
extended period of time, and Iwasn't getting help there
either.
And that's eventually what uhled me to attempt suicide.
SPEAKER_01 (07:21):
So many veterans like us have this period of very
high functioning while we're inthe military.
And then even for a time afterthe military, we're super high
functioning because we're sofocused on the mission.
The things that we did inprocess for many years just kind
of hit us like a ton of bricks.
(07:42):
So, after experiencing yoursecond breakdown, what was
different about that period andhow did it push you toward
recovery?
SPEAKER_00 (07:49):
Something unique happened for me.
I the company I'd started a newjob, so I had multiple life
situations changing at the sametime as well.
And somebody I knew brought me anewspaper article, and in that
newspaper article was a uhsupport recovery group at a
local church, and I hadn't beento church in a long time.
(08:09):
I mean, a really long time.
It wasn't even on my mind.
And he says, I think you shouldgo check this out.
And that's sort of what got mestarted.
I got into this church and metsome people who were
understanding and caring, andthey, you know, surrounded me.
And uh that comfort um andkindness is at least what slowed
(08:33):
me a little.
Um, the recovery from mybreakdown probably took, at the
worst of it, was probably threeor four years that it took to,
you know, slow it down, turn itaround, and at least be aiming
in the forward direction.
Uh there was no healing going onthere.
(08:54):
It was just trying to get thehemorrhaging to stop, getting
the pain, the extensive pain toget it to stop.
And uh that in fact happened.
SPEAKER_01 (09:04):
We'll be back after this brief break for an
adventure to talk about thejourney to post-traumatic stress
recovery with author KevinMcOmer.
Before we cover the next topicin this episode, I want to
introduce you to the adventuresports lifestyle with what I
like to call a micro story aboutan adventure that I've had.
The adventure sports lifestyle,my deep connection to nature, is
(09:26):
essential to my good health.
So here's the story.
The day before this recording,Matt and I kayed to an island
and spent a couple of hoursfishing.
I had to ferry across a newriver, the bow of my kayak
putting slightly upriver with asteady, strong, rhythmic paddle
stroke.
Matt was so proud of how well Idid that he can't stop telling
(09:46):
me and anyone who will listenhow well I did.
He said, My grasshopper did sowell.
Some of my favorite things aboutadventure sports is that it
allows you to in those you loveto create memories and it offers
opportunities to learn newthings and improve over time and
experience a sense ofaccomplishment.
And this is so critical to yourjourney to recovery from a
(10:08):
mental or physical healthchallenge.
So I hope this inspires you toget outside in adventure along
with friends or the people youlove most.
Now, back to the show wherewe're talking with author Kevin
McComer about his post-traumaticstress recovery journey.
So, Kevin, your recovery journeyis central to walking from the
shadows.
What are the pivotal moments orstrategies that help you to heal
(10:31):
and also to find the resourcesthat you need that would work?
Because although there areresources, many of them don't
work for some people, myselfincluded.
And how did journaling play arole?
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
So, what happened with me, uh, I think a lot of it
was sort of trial error on my myown, uh, just sort of stumbling
into it.
I uh, you know, people here, oh,I came up with this idea or I
was told to do this.
That didn't happen.
A lot of it was I just stumbledinto it.
Um, on the journaling, I'llstart with that.
I my my mind was a mess.
(11:07):
It was an absolute mess.
And when you have PTSD, it's notone symptom, it's multiple
symptoms, and they can all beundulating, going up and down in
different uh intensities by theday or by the hour.
And when you come, you know, andyou start combining multiple
symptoms together, really is avery hard thing to comprehend.
(11:30):
So I started writing, trying toput words to what was going on
in my head.
And that, of course, was thebeginning of my journaling.
One of the more transformativemoments was uh anybody with PTSD
or has been traumatized.
There are two things thatabsolutely affect every single
person.
And one is the ability to trustothers, and the second one is
(11:51):
isolation.
I had lost complete trust ofeverybody.
I mean, literally everybody,with maybe the exclusion of a
couple friends and my sister.
I trusted nobody.
And I put myself into a deepisolation, and it would be, you
know, a long period, maybe ayear or two after that, uh, just
(12:13):
out of pure boredom, um, I founda canal trail and I started
walking.
And still at this point, Iphysically was numb.
My face was numb, my brain wasnumb.
Everything about me was numb.
And uh this canal trail was lowtraffic, very level, easy
walking.
It was really quiet, you know,safe, meaning there's no
(12:35):
stimulation.
And after having done it for awhile, my senses kicked in.
And that was probably thebiggest transformation of where
I connected with being outdoorsand understanding, oh my
goodness, I can smell somethingagain.
I can actually hear a bird inthe background.
You know, I can feel the sun onmy face.
(12:56):
And these very subtle thingswere probably the point where I
started re-engaging, you know,with my with my feelings, having
literally had them strippedaway, completely stripped away.
SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
That's the incredible healing power of
nature and why nature-basedtherapy is so um impactful, but
yet subtle.
It's not this big action, itjust kind of a slow knowing uh
that happens when you're out innature.
(13:33):
And that was sort of whathappened for me too.
And like you, I spent 18 monthsin my home, not leaving my home,
thank God for telemedicine,because uh I couldn't force
myself to step one foot outsidemy luxury condo at the time.
And um, so what really resonateswith me is how you talk about
(13:57):
isolation.
So, why did you decide to writethe book?
And what did you hope thatreaders would get?
What insights?
SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
Well, I I tell people this I had no plans to
write a book.
So uh there's a couple thingsthat happen in parallel.
Uh, I've been doing PTSD serviceprojects, advocacy for 20, 25
years, and I told bits andpieces of my story over time,
and people were were alwaysfascinated with it.
(14:24):
When we moved to Pennsylvaniafive years ago, I found over a
box of all my journaling notes.
So I journaled for 15 years.
I wrote a lot, and I knew wherethe box was, and then something
peculiar happened.
Um, this was during the COVIDperiod.
We thought that I wasexperiencing a form of fatigue,
(14:46):
burnout, and I did have COVIDonce and possibly residual
effects of that.
I was just, I was just spent.
I started making you knowmistakes at work, and and I just
I wasn't at at my A game.
It came out that my latent TBIand PTSD symptoms started having
(15:06):
an impact on my brain, on mycognition.
I've been through all kinds oftests, I mean scores of tests,
and it's still going.
My brain's been impacted, theydon't know why, but it created a
number of problems for me.
And so I pushed myself intoearly retirement.
I had the ability to do that,and so I retired at 59.
At that point, um, I had theopportunity to do more in the
(15:27):
PTSD advocacy.
And I just one day I said, youknow, I'm tired of hearing about
22 veterans killing themselvesevery day.
It's not getting better, and ifanything, it's probably getting
worse.
And so I started looking at it,and in everything I saw pointed,
it's actually getting worse, butthey're not sharing the data.
(15:48):
So I said, okay, I'm just gonnago take those notes and gonna go
write a book.
That's literally all I did.
And so I sat down in a five, sixmonth period and wrote the
entire book um on what I thoughtsomebody with PTSD or somebody
who may be a friend or a familymember of somebody with PTSD
(16:09):
would want to hear.
And I got it down to 16 topics.
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
When we think about veteran suicide, I I want to
spend a moment here getting yourthoughts on veteran suicide.
I know that I have my thoughts,what I think the VA and
communities can do better.
First of all, we need to stopmainstream media and
entertainment villainizingveterans.
(16:35):
In fact, in my own experience, Ihad a woman that I considered a
dear friend whom I took care ofafter her surgery.
She listened to a report on thenews that said, if you have a
veteran in your life, you'reinviting danger into your life.
And the message she took awayfrom that was, well, my friend
Antoinette is a veteran.
(16:56):
And even though I know her to bea very caring person who took
care of me in my moment of need,she decided to call me up the
next morning and tell me thatshe could no longer be my friend
because of that news story.
And my male friends who wereveterans said, people write in
their dating profile.
(17:17):
If you're a veteran, don't evenbother.
You lots of unfavorable namesafter that.
It was in their dating profile.
Also, when you go to thetheater, all that you see is
imagery of the dangerous veteranwho comes home and does
something terrible in hiscommunity.
(17:38):
And I believe that one of thecauses is the image that the
world society puts on usveterans.
Secondly, we leave the militaryand we're expected to hit the
ground running and to besuccessful, to find a job, to
move ourselves and our familiesto another location out of
military housing or barracks orwherever you lived, and be able
(18:03):
to provide for yourselfimmediately without ever any
time to decompress.
So I think that's an issue.
The financial burden on veteranspost-military service is
incredible.
I was very fortunate I left themilitary and had a job before I
left that paid much more moneythan what I was making in the
(18:24):
military.
But not everybody has thatability.
And often people who are very,very sick, even a friend who had
a double amputation, lower limbamputation, it took him five
years, 10 years actually, afterhis military service to receive
healthcare benefits and otherbenefits.
(18:47):
So we need to do better when itcomes to providing for the
veteran and you know thetransition training that they
give you is it's great andeverything.
SPEAKER_00 (18:59):
And that, Antoinette, is the key word
transition.
There was no transition, andeven talking today with uh
recent veterans, the transitionis still not adequate.
And that's where I think they'vereally failed to help the
(19:22):
individual understand if youwent through A, B, and C, most
likely you have a chance ofexperiencing DENF.
And they fail to do that.
And there's a lot of thingsgoing against veterans when they
come out.
It's a very difficulttransition.
The world, even though, say youwere in the military four years,
(19:43):
the world you come out to is sovery different.
I remember when I got out, I wasjust shocked at the horrible
work ethic and how slow peoplewere and senior people, their
inability to make the most basicdecisions.
You know, these are allfundamental things.
You're learned, you learn.
I'm 85 by the time I was 21years old.
(20:06):
And so I was capable of makingdecisions.
And then I get out and you see41-year-old men that can't even
say yes or no, and you're tryingto lead them.
It makes it very difficult.
And I think, you know, that lackof transition and the different
world experiences may actually,in fact, make veterans difficult
to work with at times.
Um, doesn't mean it's bad,doesn't mean they're wrong.
(20:28):
Um, but the world standards arepretty low.
And I think you hear this fromalmost all veterans, it's the
lack of work ethic, theemotional immaturity in the
workplace, behavioral things.
You see all of this, and itmakes it difficult.
For me, I think the transition,I didn't realize I had been
damaged as much as I had.
(20:48):
And, you know, when you gothrough severe trauma, your
brain gets rewired.
Um, your brain can trick you,and it really takes a lot of
work to understand what is realand what isn't real and what you
can control and what you can'tcontrol.
If your brain is a muck, itcertainly lends itself to that
pathway of uh being suicidal.
And that's one of the things Italk about so much with veterans
(21:11):
is you know, is this real?
You know, how do you reframeyour situation?
How do you move to somethingpositive?
You know, when you go throughsomething like PTSD or you have
a disability or you're missing alimb, your life isn't over.
You just have to figure outwhere am I going to compensate
in my life to offset thatdisability.
(21:31):
And that's been probably some ofmy greater experiences you can't
undo the past.
I can't really fix my brain.
Um, you know, I certainly can'tfix a lot of the experiences.
A lot of them are washed, a lotof them disappeared, you know,
can't get them back.
So you do other things, youknow, whether it be, you know,
whole health, going outdoors wassignificant.
(21:53):
I would later read, you know,not that many years ago, maybe
10 years ago.
Um, there's a Japanese termcalled forest bathing, where
people go out into the forestand they got it.
That's exactly and go, oh mygoodness, that I figured that
out on my own.
But once you do it, now I do iton purpose.
I go out, I've got five acres.
I go into the woods and I justlose myself in there and enjoy
(22:17):
it and absorb all the beautifulthings that impact your senses
out in the middle of the woods.
But you have to, you have tocompensate.
You have to learn how to, youknow, pick up other areas of
your life that can have apositive uh impact.
SPEAKER_01 (22:30):
As you were saying, you have to create your new
normal because you're nevergetting your old life back.
And so you can sit and have apity party about, well, I used
to be great at my job and strongand competent, and now I can't
even dress myself in the morningbecause I'm so disabled from all
of my health challenges.
(22:50):
And I'm speaking for myselfhere.
Let's talk about the strategiesfor recovery.
SPEAKER_00 (22:55):
Sure.
I think first of all, you youknow, some of the some of the
things are obvious, but thereare a lot of things that aren't
obvious.
So the first one is I thinkthere's a place for therapy, but
you need the right therapist, atleast with PTSD, you want to
find somebody who understandstrauma therapy.
And there are a lot oftherapists out there that feign
(23:17):
that they have more experiencethan they actually do.
You know, it's like anyprofession, it's the 80-20 rule.
You know, 20% are great, andthen 80%, you know, show up.
Doesn't matter the job.
And you need to find somebody inthat 20%.
The next thing you have tounderstand is, you know,
depending on the severity ofyour issues, you know, you're
dealing with it possibly halfday, all day long.
(23:39):
And if you're seeing aspecialist or therapist, it may
only be for an hour or two amonth.
That leaves a whole bunch ofother time you have to fill in.
For me, I sort of looked at themany things I did.
And the first thing was I goback to the point I made, what
is real, what isn't real, whatcan I control, and what can I
control?
(23:59):
And it takes surprisingly a lotof time, practice, and patience
to learn how to do that becauseyou know, you may jump to
conclusions and you may thinkthings and they may be wrong.
You really got to work toreframe your thoughts.
And it takes some time to dothat.
Another thing that I did wasthat really had possibly the
(24:22):
greater impact, and I didn'trealize the impact was when
you're talking whole health, onething that I really went down
was to change my diet.
I I'm 62.
I had no idea.
I mean, when we talk about it,you're on the news, and when we
talk about diet, it's usuallyabout weight loss.
I'm not talking about thatbecause I know overweight people
(24:44):
that are very healthy, they'rejust overweight.
I'm talking the content of thefood you are putting into your
body.
So I became, for example, umquite aware of dirty carbs.
And I didn't realize what anegative impact dirty carbs had
been having on my body.
I started taking them out.
(25:04):
And for the for the new listenerfor dirty carbs, it's basically
white sugar, white flour, umrice, potatoes, all of those
things create um, those carbscreate sugars in your body.
You start pulling those out,even if you just pull out, you
know, soft drinks, you know,packed with high fructose corn
(25:25):
syrup, you're gonna notice ahuge, huge impact.
And then the other thing isremoving processed foods.
Start, you know, that's verydifficult.
I get it.
It's difficult to move the dirt,remove dirty carbs.
It's in everything because it'scheap.
But going to more, I won't saynatural foods, but going more to
(25:47):
um real food, you know, freshfood, and being more cognizant
and what I was playing in mybody.
And you know, I will come tolearn that, you know, the
majority of your serotonin, andhe this is a gray, I love that
word, serotonin, it's not comingfrom your head, it's coming from
your gut.
I had no idea.
And so, you know, just what youput in, we've all heard this
(26:10):
expression, garbage in, garbageout, but it really is quite true
that you do that, and thenpossibly if you need to, you
take a supplement or you take avitamin.
I do both.
Um, all of a sudden, I feltbetter.
And this wasn't the placeboeffect.
I literally felt better.
(26:30):
My body was regulating better, Iwas stronger, I wasn't
lethargic, I didn't have, Ihaven't had, you know, hitting
the wall.
You know, people hit that wallin the middle of the day.
I haven't had that in so manyyears, I can't remember.
And I attributed it to uh tochanging the diet, what you are
(26:50):
putting into your body.
And for anybody listening tothis, it is one of the most
simple, easiest things to dowith the greatest impact that
literally anybody listening tohere right now can do.
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I want to talk also aboutselecting the right therapist.
And here's my philosophy onchoosing a good therapist.
In my experience, any person,whether it's your family member,
your therapist, or anyone elsein your life, if they are
(29:16):
telling you what to do, what tothink, and how to feel, they
don't have your best interestsat heart.
They have another agenda.
But the folks who will help youprocess what you're thinking,
feeling, and help you developsome action steps to take
afterwards, those are the peoplewho truly have your best
(29:36):
interest at heart.
And that's one sort of litmustest that I use when I was
talking with a therapist.
I don't need one now.
Uh, but I hope you'll find thathelpful, listeners.
SPEAKER_00 (29:48):
I'd like to add to that.
Um, what I have discovered is,and people think this sort of
crash to say it, remember, theywork for you.
And what I said earlier, if yousee a therapist.
Therapist, if you're fortunate,maybe you see them twice a
month, maybe you only see themonce a month.
In my same journaling notes overtime, I still do it now.
Is if I meet with anybody, Itake notes and I prepare for my
(30:11):
meeting.
I said, I'd like to accomplishthis today.
You work for me, help me get tohere.
Why am I thinking this way?
And just don't let theconversations ramble because
there are a lot of clockcounters out there.
And they're just, you know, justtrying to drive the clock until
they get you the next episode.
And if you don't feel likeyou're accomplishing something,
(30:32):
you probably are.
It's hard work.
You will know if you areworking, you will feel you may
not feel miserable, but you mostcertainly will feel
uncomfortable.
There may be topics depending onthe trauma that could be very
sensitive and hurtful.
I get it.
But if your conversations aren'tmaking you uncomfortable and
difficult for you to manage,you're probably not doing the
(30:54):
work and they're probably notthe right person.
SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
Amen to that.
I agree with that completely.
I also want to ask you aboutsomething that comes up often,
especially in the veterancommunity, particularly among
combat veterans, this discussionof suggestions on what things
that you find helpful when thedemons come up, when those bad
(31:20):
times arise, when anniversariesof trauma arise, or just
something happens in the newsthat might take you back to a
place where you don't reallylike going.
How do you handle that?
SPEAKER_00 (31:32):
Well, again, this sort of goes back to the
journaling.
I know what my triggers are andI'm waiting and ready for them.
Now I don't like them, theyhappen.
They did different types oftriggers.
I have one smell, I have twosmells actually that can set me
off.
Um, there's certain sounds orcertain images sometimes that
will trigger me, but I'm ready.
(31:53):
You know, that's part ofmanaging yourself.
You have to be honest.
Okay, I have these triggers, andwhat will I do?
There are they they call themgrounding techniques.
I really don't like groundingtechniques.
It's too generalized becausethere's literally, if you put it
into Google, you'll getliterally dozens and dozens of
them.
But you find things, activities,things you can do when the
(32:14):
trigger comes up that that youdefault to.
So, you know, one of the biggerones, and this is actually
helpful overall, is learning howto breathe.
I did not know how to breathe.
I taught myself how to breathe.
Um, if I feel anxiety or a panicattack coming on, I have an
ability where I sit down and Islow down my world and I breathe
(32:35):
through my nose and I count andI just slow down.
And I go back to what I saidearlier.
Is this real or not real?
And can I control it?
Can I not control it?
And you do that and youacknowledge it, but you just
work with it.
And I'll tell you, it is alittle awkward at first, but
after practicing it, you whatyou find to help you is uh good.
(32:57):
So, like for uh uh for me, Iknow October 23rd, you know, the
bombing of the barracks, I knowit's gonna make me, I'm gonna be
sad that day.
So, what am I going to do?
I know I'm going to be doingsome walking, I'm going to be
some do positive affirmations,positive thinking.
I'm going to, you know, umreframe my thoughts.
(33:18):
All of these things, which youcan practice, is how you deal
with that.
And you have to deal with it.
They because it will happen.
I am now 30 plus years of myhealing, and I still have
triggers.
I don't have them as often as Iused to.
They're not as intense.
I don't have the nightmares.
I don't have the night terrorlike I did, but they do happen.
(33:39):
But you have to be responsibleand you have to you have to head
them straight on and deal withit, even if it's uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_01 (33:47):
If you're listening and you're struggling with a
mental health challenge and youdon't know how to get started or
even when to get started, andyou can work for, I recently
interviewed uh Greg Forest andMichael Nolan about their
innovative health and uh mentalhealth and addiction recovery.
(34:08):
And you can listen to thatprevious episode.
It came out just before therelease of this one.
So that will be helpful ifyou're just starting out on your
journey or thinking maybe it'stime for me to start working on
my mental health.
And then also I want to go backto talk about managing yourself.
Uh, when I spoke with uh Dr.
(34:29):
Julie Seymours about her book,Surviving Your Hospital Stay, we
talked about not just survivingyour hospital stay, but how to
choose a good healthcareprovider.
And she gives a lot of goodinsights on what your rights are
as a patient and what words youcan use when you feel like
(34:49):
you're not being heard or umyour opinion isn't being valued
by your healthcare provider.
One of the things that youtalked about here, Kevin, is
journaling.
And that's one of the firststeps to managing yourself
because if you don't write downwhat you're thinking, what
(35:10):
you're feeling, what happened inthe moment, our memories,
especially when we're managingtrauma and we're managing
stress, are not good.
You might think you rememberedwhat happened, but it's through
this lens of trauma and thislens of how you react to trauma.
(35:34):
But when you write it down, ithelps you to like put the trauma
at arm's length, step back, andum you're an observer of what
happened and how you felt aboutit and all of the things related
to that situation.
So I highly encouragejournaling, and I highly
(35:54):
encourage, like Kevin wassaying, that you need to be an
active participant in your ownmental health recovery.
It there are no magic pills.
And Kevin, I know that you havesome thoughts on um medication
that I really want to make surewe get to.
SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
Yeah, I think you know, there's there is a place
for medication, but you know, itdidn't go easy for me.
Um, certainly on the front sideof it, um, my body did not like
it.
And um, you know, you hear howit takes time, they have to
adjust the amounts.
It didn't matter.
My body just did not like it.
(36:34):
And I'm not saying it isnecessarily a bad thing, but I
give an analogy.
When you go into some of thesemedications, there has to be an
off-ramp.
And it's it's very similar tolike taking ibuprofen.
You don't take ibuprofen everyday waiting to hit your hand to
get a sore hand.
(36:55):
You take it when you have a sorehand, you take it for a while,
and then you stop.
And that that's very simplistic,but it must be part of your
conversation with who'sprescribing your medication.
Okay, we're going to go intothis.
How long are we going to, youknow, use it?
How long is it needed?
For some people, there arecertain medications that are a
(37:17):
godsend.
Um, for others, not so much.
And, you know, I think withinthe veteran community, and I
hear this a lot, is that manyfeel they're over-medicated.
And it may be a little sinister,but people generally the feeling
is you're being medicated justto calm you down, numb you out
(37:39):
so they can get to the nextperson.
You're a number.
It's an easy, quick way tomanage you.
But the reality is it is aforeign substance and you have
to go into it with um with aplan.
Just don't assume that.
And if they give you medication,just remember one thing we have
today is the internet.
You put in that, you know,medication there, and you can
(38:01):
even do on your cell phone inthe doctor's office, say, let's
talk.
What are some of the symptoms wehave?
And okay, oh, it has thissymptom.
What do we do if this happens?
And so you again, usually it'sthe psychiatrist, sometimes
nurse practitioners can give youthese medications.
Remember, they work for you, youjust don't have to default with
(38:21):
them.
And one of the things I want toadd here, and it goes with the
doctor and psychiatrist, thingsthat are having very big impacts
on your well-being.
I strongly suggest either takinga friend or you taking a partner
with you to the appointment ifit's a key appointment.
Okay, so like if you're new inmedication, um the the value of
(38:43):
taking somebody there is toguide you, remind you, support
you, advocate for you.
There's a lot of roles thatperson can do.
You know, you get in there, yourmind could be drifting, and you
may be only picking up half ofwhat that person is saying to
you.
That other person's gonna helpyou.
Hey, you know, get get centeredhere, you know, let's get back.
(39:06):
And I think that's veryimportant.
And again, even in myjournaling, I'm gonna mention
this again.
Anytime you go to a doctor'sappointment, journal it.
Take notes with them, reviewyour notes with them, you know,
date it.
And then one of the things I Ido talk about in my book about
doing with the journaling, Icall it purpose-driven writing,
is the underline keyword.
(39:26):
So you can go back and find itvery quickly.
So the thing with journalingjust isn't the processing of
downloading information, it's touse it.
I found that over time I keptjournaling the same thing and
coming up with the same thought.
And I wonder, you know, this isthis is interesting.
I keep coming.
Why do I keep coming back tothis one thought or two thoughts
(39:46):
and then processing it?
So, you know, that's just someinput on how to manage that.
And I talk about how to managethis in my book.
I think it's useful.
SPEAKER_01 (39:55):
My personal thought on medication is that it can be
very beneficial for you,especially when you're in the
acute phase of any illness, anydis-ease, and whether it's
mental health or physicalhealth.
However, what I've noticed isthat most physicians, once they
(40:18):
put you on a drug, they reallydon't want to help you work your
way off that drug.
If you are feeling like yoursenses are being dulled by the
drug to the point where you'renot thriving, you're just
surviving day to day, but youreally don't have a real life
(40:38):
because you're so numb and umsleepy all the time from the
medications of what they callside effects.
Then have that conversation withyour doctor and um advocate for
yourself.
Let's make a plan to step downor re or at a minimum reduce it.
(41:00):
Because, like Kevin was saying,in my own experience, uh I had
all of the very worst sideeffects from every medication
I've been on, includinganaphylactic shock.
And you can only surviveanaphylactic shock so many times
before maybe you don't make itthrough that.
So um be your own patientadvocate, get someone else that
(41:24):
can advocate for you, becauseit's very important that you can
communicate with your careproviders about how you're
feeling on the medication.
They may still tell you, I thinkat this point you should stay on
it, and that's valid.
But over time, if you are reallyfeeling like I don't need to be
(41:45):
on this medication, maybe talkto another healthcare provider
about the human feeling.
SPEAKER_00 (41:52):
That's exactly it, Antony.
And that's sort of what happenedwith me.
Now, I had one provider, andthis was during the COVID
period, and I had my wife withme, and my wife was a nurse, and
my wife started questioning whatshe was saying.
We were telling her what wasgoing on with me, and she was
sort of fighting me, and mywife's going, something seems
wrong here.
And I actually shifted doc Ishifted uh VA facilities and and
(42:16):
and got a better doctor, andthen they changed me, and uh,
and that wasn't my doing.
I told them what was going on.
He said, Yeah, this isn't thebest thing for you.
So it's okay to question.
Remember, I'm gonna say itagain, they work for you, and
you have never forget that, anddon't be rude, you know, right,
but they work for you, and um,if you don't feel something's
(42:38):
right, it's very possible itisn't right, right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:41):
You know, and and the more that you can calmly
say, express your thoughts andfeelings, then the more the
easier it is for your healthcareprovider to really listen to
you.
But the more agitated you are asyou're talking to your
healthcare provider, it kind offeeds into what they're saying,
(43:02):
which is I don't think youshould get off this medication,
and your agitated state tells mereinforces that I'm right, the
meaning that the provider isright to keep you on the
medication.
So stay calm, use your words.
Uh, Dr.
Seymours gives you a lot of uhadvice on what to say.
Before we um end thisconversation, which has been so
(43:26):
insightful, Kevin.
What more do you want thelisteners to know?
SPEAKER_00 (43:31):
I think it depends where you are in your healing
journey, but I meet a lot ofpeople early on in their healing
journey, and uh there's twothings.
One is it does get better.
You know, there's so much moreinformation today, so many
resources.
There's podcasts, there'sYouTube, there's papers, there's
(43:52):
articles you can read on theinternet.
We had none of that 30 yearsago, and it would have been a
huge help to say, you know,okay, it is going to get better.
The other one is you're notalone.
I am just amazed by the numberof veterans, the percentage of
veterans that have PTSD relatedissues.
It's no small number, very highpercentage.
(44:14):
So the chances if you can get insome type of support group or if
you can meet up with otherpeople similar to you, more
likely than not, you'll have asupport network because they get
it, and that's a beautifulthing.
The other thing is one of thepractices I tell everybody to do
(44:34):
is you're gonna be learning somenew things.
They may sound different, theymay sound strange, but fake it
till you make it is theapproach.
You're gonna, you know,particularly in therapy or you
know, grounding techniques orany of these things we're
talking about, it's gonna feeluncomfortable, it's gonna feel
awkward.
It does just hang in there,stick with it, because if you
(44:58):
keep doing it, your behaviorsand your approaches will change,
and and that helps you find hopeand makes you feel better, and
things do get better.
But I can tell you after being30 years in the healing process,
it gets better.
And honestly, some miraculousthings can happen.
I mean, I wrote a book.
Who would have ever thought, youknow, I'd write a book and the
(45:18):
book would take off?
I mean, technically speaking,I'm I'm a nobody, you know, I'm
one guy, but I'm in the realmof, you know, there's probably
two, three hundred thousand, youknow, mental health books and
twenty, thirty thousand PTSDbooks, and my book continues
just staying right there at thetop.
And uh, you know, don't make itharder than it is, but just
(45:40):
you're gonna have to confrontyour demons and you're gonna
have to work at it.
SPEAKER_01 (45:43):
Well, thank you for that.
We wish you continued successwith your book and your speaking
in your veteran advocacy.
Until next time, friends, I'mAntoinette Lee, your wellness
warrior here at the New NormalBig Life Podcast.
I hope one day to see you on theriver, in the backcountry, or in
the horse barn living your bestlife.
Struggling with health problemsor seeking natural health
solutions?
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(46:06):
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At that point, I had the opportunity to do more in
the PTSD advocacy.
And I just one day I said, youknow, I'm tired of hearing about
22 veterans killing themselvesevery day.
It's not getting better.
And if anything, it's probablygetting worse.
And so I started looking at it,and everything I saw pointed,
(00:20):
it's actually getting worse, butthey're not sharing the data.
So I said, okay, I'm just gonnago take those notes and gonna go
write a book.
That's literally all I did.
And so I sat down in a five,six-month period and wrote the
entire book on what I thoughtsomebody with PTSD or somebody
(00:40):
who may be a friend or a familymember of somebody with PTSD
would want to hear.
And I got it down to 16 topics.
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Hi friends, welcome to the New Normal Big Life
podcast.
We bring you natural news andstories about nature that we
hope will inspire you to getoutside an adventure, along with
a step-by-step plan to help youpractice what you've learned and
create your own new normal andlive the biggest life you can
dream.
I'm your host, Antoinette Lee,the wellness warrior.
Kevin McComer is an Americanauthor and advocate and Navy
(01:08):
veteran, known for his work inraising awareness about
post-traumatic stress disorder.
He penned the book Walking fromthe Shadows, My Journey with
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder,which details his personal
journey and strategies forhealing from trauma.
He aims to normalize discussionsabout mental health and reduce
the stigma surroundingpost-traumatic stress.
(01:29):
The book is written to be atrauma agnostic book focusing on
the healing process rather thanthe specific cause of trauma.
The book has been accepted byall four military academies and
estimates one million have heardthis message.
Kevin, welcome to New Normal BigLife.
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
Hey, thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (01:47):
Can you share a bit about your life before entering
the military?
What was your upbringing like?
What shaped you into the personyou were?
SPEAKER_00 (01:55):
That's interesting because that is actually part of
my trauma.
Today they refer to uh it asCPTSD.
Most people haven't heard that,but that means complex PTSD or
repeating traumas and uh events.
And I grew up uh in a verydysfunctional family.
(02:16):
Both my mother and my fatherwere both dysfunctional in
different ways, and they camefrom two very dysfunctional
families.
So uh my childhood was quitechaotic.
Uh for it may have been just Iwas adept enough when I was a
kid to say, hey, this isn't sogood.
So I spent much of my friend uhtime at friends' homes, and uh I
(02:37):
got some normalcy at theirhomes, but I did the best I
could to avoid my home.
By the time I was probably 15, Ibegan the process of talking to
recruiters, which is sort ofyoung.
And 16, I was actively engagedwith a marine recruiter.
Um, a couple months after I was17, I joined the Navy and I had
(02:57):
my mom sign me in uh so I couldgo on uh in early at a younger
age.
And so my childhood, I wanted toleave it in the past.
I want to leave my family in thepast and uh and move on.
And uh, you know, in some waysthat was a very mature thing to
do, though I don't know I fullygrasped it the time, you know,
what I was doing.
SPEAKER_01 (03:18):
Tell us about what experiences shaped your life in
the military and justimmediately after the military.
SPEAKER_00 (03:27):
Sure.
Well, um, to put in perspective,I went into the Navy in 1981,
and it was a very different Navythan it is today.
Uh, it was very difficult.
Uh, the equipment still at thatpoint, uh, they hadn't been
spending much.
I mean, they spent money duringthe Vietnam War, but overall,
the Navy was pretty beat up.
Uh, the equipment was old, itdidn't work well, and it was a
(03:50):
very difficult life thattranslated into a lot of extra
hours, working weekends, workingnights, and also a lot of
challenges.
Um, when we went out to a cruiseor we went patrolling, uh, we
frequently had issues and itmade for a very difficult life.
You really physically didn't getmuch of a break.
(04:12):
You were all always tired.
And for anybody who's everdeployed, and I've deployed
three times and for asignificant period of time, you
understand that you sort of geton a rotation of work, rest.
And in the Navy back in the day,you were probably only getting
about five hours rest a day.
And it wasn't necessarily alltogether.
Maybe every three weeks you gota period where you were getting
(04:34):
maybe five or six hours rest atone stretch.
But the others, it was brokenbecause you were shifting,
you're you're rotating your uhwatch.
And uh, so you you becamefatigued by that.
And then uh for me, I was sentto the Middle East.
I was part of the Beiruttheater.
It was extremely tenacious.
It was a very difficult, verydangerous uh place to be at.
SPEAKER_01 (04:57):
Well, the lack of sleep and the constant worry
about safety is a recipe fortrauma there.
You've mentioned a mentalbreakdown in the 90s.
Will you walk us through whatled to that moment and how it
impacted your life at the time?
SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
Yeah, you know, and there's the lesson here.
If you have had mental healthissues and you've been
traumatized a number of times,if you need help, get it.
I I, in hindsight, tried puttingthe pieces together.
I think I realized to somedegree I needed it.
Uh, but it was also a differenttime.
(05:33):
There wasn't a reference pointto this type of mental health.
People didn't talk about it.
There weren't resources.
So when I got out of themilitary, I jumped into college.
And uh my discipline, my workethic was tremendous.
I did it really, really well incollege.
Um, my grades were very high,worked a part-time job.
(05:54):
So between those two things, itkept me so busy that I ignored
the actual um situations I wasfacing from a mental health
perspective.
And then in my very late 20s, Iwent through a massive trauma
yet again.
And uh, you know, I'd been in anaccident, I had my my time in
the Middle East and on and on.
(06:15):
And I, in normal circumstances,it probably wouldn't have
cleaned somebody's clock like itdid mine, but it did because I
had not taken care of myself.
And so I didn't realize I was alot more vulnerable than I was,
and and it got to me and I justbroke down.
And I remember that day.
It was very confusing because,again, there wasn't a reference
(06:38):
point, what was going on, why mybody and my brain were both
doing what they were doing.
They basically were shuttingdown without you know, doing it
on its own.
It did it with, you know, here Iam here.
I could feel myself falling.
And sort of the experience Igive is I slipped on a wet floor
once, and I remember looking,and all of a sudden my feet were
(07:00):
above my eyes.
And uh it was sort of like thenboom.
And uh it was uh a lot likethat, that mental breakdown.
All of a sudden I said, Oh mygosh, what's happening to me?
And then I had a mentalbreakdown that went on for an
extended period of time, and Iwasn't getting help there
either.
And that's eventually what uhled me to attempt suicide.
SPEAKER_01 (07:21):
So many veterans like us have this period of very
high functioning while we're inthe military.
And then even for a time afterthe military, we're super high
functioning because we're sofocused on the mission.
The things that we did inprocess for many years just kind
of hit us like a ton of bricks.
(07:42):
So, after experiencing yoursecond breakdown, what was
different about that period andhow did it push you toward
recovery?
SPEAKER_00 (07:49):
Something unique happened for me.
I the company I'd started a newjob, so I had multiple life
situations changing at the sametime as well.
And somebody I knew brought me anewspaper article, and in that
newspaper article was a uhsupport recovery group at a
local church, and I hadn't beento church in a long time.
(08:09):
I mean, a really long time.
It wasn't even on my mind.
And he says, I think you shouldgo check this out.
And that's sort of what got mestarted.
I got into this church and metsome people who were
understanding and caring, andthey, you know, surrounded me.
And uh that comfort um andkindness is at least what slowed
(08:33):
me a little.
Um, the recovery from mybreakdown probably took, at the
worst of it, was probably threeor four years that it took to,
you know, slow it down, turn itaround, and at least be aiming
in the forward direction.
Uh there was no healing going onthere.
(08:54):
It was just trying to get thehemorrhaging to stop, getting
the pain, the extensive pain toget it to stop.
And uh that in fact happened.
SPEAKER_01 (09:04):
We'll be back after this brief break for an
adventure to talk about thejourney to post-traumatic stress
recovery with author KevinMcOmer.
Before we cover the next topicin this episode, I want to
introduce you to the adventuresports lifestyle with what I
like to call a micro story aboutan adventure that I've had.
The adventure sports lifestyle,my deep connection to nature, is
(09:26):
essential to my good health.
So here's the story.
The day before this recording,Matt and I kayed to an island
and spent a couple of hoursfishing.
I had to ferry across a newriver, the bow of my kayak
putting slightly upriver with asteady, strong, rhythmic paddle
stroke.
Matt was so proud of how well Idid that he can't stop telling
(09:46):
me and anyone who will listenhow well I did.
He said, My grasshopper did sowell.
Some of my favorite things aboutadventure sports is that it
allows you to in those you loveto create memories and it offers
opportunities to learn newthings and improve over time and
experience a sense ofaccomplishment.
And this is so critical to yourjourney to recovery from a
(10:08):
mental or physical healthchallenge.
So I hope this inspires you toget outside in adventure along
with friends or the people youlove most.
Now, back to the show wherewe're talking with author Kevin
McComer about his post-traumaticstress recovery journey.
So, Kevin, your recovery journeyis central to walking from the
shadows.
What are the pivotal moments orstrategies that help you to heal
(10:31):
and also to find the resourcesthat you need that would work?
Because although there areresources, many of them don't
work for some people, myselfincluded.
And how did journaling play arole?
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
So, what happened with me, uh, I think a lot of it
was sort of trial error on my myown, uh, just sort of stumbling
into it.
I uh, you know, people here, oh,I came up with this idea or I
was told to do this.
That didn't happen.
A lot of it was I just stumbledinto it.
Um, on the journaling, I'llstart with that.
I my my mind was a mess.
(11:07):
It was an absolute mess.
And when you have PTSD, it's notone symptom, it's multiple
symptoms, and they can all beundulating, going up and down in
different uh intensities by theday or by the hour.
And when you come, you know, andyou start combining multiple
symptoms together, really is avery hard thing to comprehend.
(11:30):
So I started writing, trying toput words to what was going on
in my head.
And that, of course, was thebeginning of my journaling.
One of the more transformativemoments was uh anybody with PTSD
or has been traumatized.
There are two things thatabsolutely affect every single
person.
And one is the ability to trustothers, and the second one is
(11:51):
isolation.
I had lost complete trust ofeverybody.
I mean, literally everybody,with maybe the exclusion of a
couple friends and my sister.
I trusted nobody.
And I put myself into a deepisolation, and it would be, you
know, a long period, maybe ayear or two after that, uh, just
(12:13):
out of pure boredom, um, I founda canal trail and I started
walking.
And still at this point, Iphysically was numb.
My face was numb, my brain wasnumb.
Everything about me was numb.
And uh this canal trail was lowtraffic, very level, easy
walking.
It was really quiet, you know,safe, meaning there's no
(12:35):
stimulation.
And after having done it for awhile, my senses kicked in.
And that was probably thebiggest transformation of where
I connected with being outdoorsand understanding, oh my
goodness, I can smell somethingagain.
I can actually hear a bird inthe background.
You know, I can feel the sun onmy face.
(12:56):
And these very subtle thingswere probably the point where I
started re-engaging, you know,with my with my feelings, having
literally had them strippedaway, completely stripped away.
SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
That's the incredible healing power of
nature and why nature-basedtherapy is so um impactful, but
yet subtle.
It's not this big action, itjust kind of a slow knowing uh
that happens when you're out innature.
(13:33):
And that was sort of whathappened for me too.
And like you, I spent 18 monthsin my home, not leaving my home,
thank God for telemedicine,because uh I couldn't force
myself to step one foot outsidemy luxury condo at the time.
And um, so what really resonateswith me is how you talk about
(13:57):
isolation.
So, why did you decide to writethe book?
And what did you hope thatreaders would get?
What insights?
SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
Well, I I tell people this I had no plans to
write a book.
So uh there's a couple thingsthat happen in parallel.
Uh, I've been doing PTSD serviceprojects, advocacy for 20, 25
years, and I told bits andpieces of my story over time,
and people were were alwaysfascinated with it.
(14:24):
When we moved to Pennsylvaniafive years ago, I found over a
box of all my journaling notes.
So I journaled for 15 years.
I wrote a lot, and I knew wherethe box was, and then something
peculiar happened.
Um, this was during the COVIDperiod.
We thought that I wasexperiencing a form of fatigue,
(14:46):
burnout, and I did have COVIDonce and possibly residual
effects of that.
I was just, I was just spent.
I started making you knowmistakes at work, and and I just
I wasn't at at my A game.
It came out that my latent TBIand PTSD symptoms started having
(15:06):
an impact on my brain, on mycognition.
I've been through all kinds oftests, I mean scores of tests,
and it's still going.
My brain's been impacted, theydon't know why, but it created a
number of problems for me.
And so I pushed myself intoearly retirement.
I had the ability to do that,and so I retired at 59.
At that point, um, I had theopportunity to do more in the
(15:27):
PTSD advocacy.
And I just one day I said, youknow, I'm tired of hearing about
22 veterans killing themselvesevery day.
It's not getting better, and ifanything, it's probably getting
worse.
And so I started looking at it,and in everything I saw pointed,
it's actually getting worse, butthey're not sharing the data.
(15:48):
So I said, okay, I'm just gonnago take those notes and gonna go
write a book.
That's literally all I did.
And so I sat down in a five, sixmonth period and wrote the
entire book um on what I thoughtsomebody with PTSD or somebody
who may be a friend or a familymember of somebody with PTSD
(16:09):
would want to hear.
And I got it down to 16 topics.
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
When we think about veteran suicide, I I want to
spend a moment here getting yourthoughts on veteran suicide.
I know that I have my thoughts,what I think the VA and
communities can do better.
First of all, we need to stopmainstream media and
entertainment villainizingveterans.
(16:35):
In fact, in my own experience, Ihad a woman that I considered a
dear friend whom I took care ofafter her surgery.
She listened to a report on thenews that said, if you have a
veteran in your life, you'reinviting danger into your life.
And the message she took awayfrom that was, well, my friend
Antoinette is a veteran.
(16:56):
And even though I know her to bea very caring person who took
care of me in my moment of need,she decided to call me up the
next morning and tell me thatshe could no longer be my friend
because of that news story.
And my male friends who wereveterans said, people write in
their dating profile.
(17:17):
If you're a veteran, don't evenbother.
You lots of unfavorable namesafter that.
It was in their dating profile.
Also, when you go to thetheater, all that you see is
imagery of the dangerous veteranwho comes home and does
something terrible in hiscommunity.
(17:38):
And I believe that one of thecauses is the image that the
world society puts on usveterans.
Secondly, we leave the militaryand we're expected to hit the
ground running and to besuccessful, to find a job, to
move ourselves and our familiesto another location out of
military housing or barracks orwherever you lived, and be able
(18:03):
to provide for yourselfimmediately without ever any
time to decompress.
So I think that's an issue.
The financial burden on veteranspost-military service is
incredible.
I was very fortunate I left themilitary and had a job before I
left that paid much more moneythan what I was making in the
(18:24):
military.
But not everybody has thatability.
And often people who are very,very sick, even a friend who had
a double amputation, lower limbamputation, it took him five
years, 10 years actually, afterhis military service to receive
healthcare benefits and otherbenefits.
(18:47):
So we need to do better when itcomes to providing for the
veteran and you know thetransition training that they
give you is it's great andeverything.
SPEAKER_00 (18:59):
And that, Antoinette, is the key word
transition.
There was no transition, andeven talking today with uh
recent veterans, the transitionis still not adequate.
And that's where I think they'vereally failed to help the
(19:22):
individual understand if youwent through A, B, and C, most
likely you have a chance ofexperiencing DENF.
And they fail to do that.
And there's a lot of thingsgoing against veterans when they
come out.
It's a very difficulttransition.
The world, even though, say youwere in the military four years,
(19:43):
the world you come out to is sovery different.
I remember when I got out, I wasjust shocked at the horrible
work ethic and how slow peoplewere and senior people, their
inability to make the most basicdecisions.
You know, these are allfundamental things.
You're learned, you learn.
I'm 85 by the time I was 21years old.
(20:06):
And so I was capable of makingdecisions.
And then I get out and you see41-year-old men that can't even
say yes or no, and you're tryingto lead them.
It makes it very difficult.
And I think, you know, that lackof transition and the different
world experiences may actually,in fact, make veterans difficult
to work with at times.
Um, doesn't mean it's bad,doesn't mean they're wrong.
(20:28):
Um, but the world standards arepretty low.
And I think you hear this fromalmost all veterans, it's the
lack of work ethic, theemotional immaturity in the
workplace, behavioral things.
You see all of this, and itmakes it difficult.
For me, I think the transition,I didn't realize I had been
damaged as much as I had.
(20:48):
And, you know, when you gothrough severe trauma, your
brain gets rewired.
Um, your brain can trick you,and it really takes a lot of
work to understand what is realand what isn't real and what you
can control and what you can'tcontrol.
If your brain is a muck, itcertainly lends itself to that
pathway of uh being suicidal.
And that's one of the things Italk about so much with veterans
(21:11):
is you know, is this real?
You know, how do you reframeyour situation?
How do you move to somethingpositive?
You know, when you go throughsomething like PTSD or you have
a disability or you're missing alimb, your life isn't over.
You just have to figure outwhere am I going to compensate
in my life to offset thatdisability.
(21:31):
And that's been probably some ofmy greater experiences you can't
undo the past.
I can't really fix my brain.
Um, you know, I certainly can'tfix a lot of the experiences.
A lot of them are washed, a lotof them disappeared, you know,
can't get them back.
So you do other things, youknow, whether it be, you know,
whole health, going outdoors wassignificant.
(21:53):
I would later read, you know,not that many years ago, maybe
10 years ago.
Um, there's a Japanese termcalled forest bathing, where
people go out into the forestand they got it.
That's exactly and go, oh mygoodness, that I figured that
out on my own.
But once you do it, now I do iton purpose.
I go out, I've got five acres.
I go into the woods and I justlose myself in there and enjoy
(22:17):
it and absorb all the beautifulthings that impact your senses
out in the middle of the woods.
But you have to, you have tocompensate.
You have to learn how to, youknow, pick up other areas of
your life that can have apositive uh impact.
SPEAKER_01 (22:30):
As you were saying, you have to create your new
normal because you're nevergetting your old life back.
And so you can sit and have apity party about, well, I used
to be great at my job and strongand competent, and now I can't
even dress myself in the morningbecause I'm so disabled from all
of my health challenges.
(22:50):
And I'm speaking for myselfhere.
Let's talk about the strategiesfor recovery.
SPEAKER_00 (22:55):
Sure.
I think first of all, you youknow, some of the some of the
things are obvious, but thereare a lot of things that aren't
obvious.
So the first one is I thinkthere's a place for therapy, but
you need the right therapist, atleast with PTSD, you want to
find somebody who understandstrauma therapy.
And there are a lot oftherapists out there that feign
(23:17):
that they have more experiencethan they actually do.
You know, it's like anyprofession, it's the 80-20 rule.
You know, 20% are great, andthen 80%, you know, show up.
Doesn't matter the job.
And you need to find somebody inthat 20%.
The next thing you have tounderstand is, you know,
depending on the severity ofyour issues, you know, you're
dealing with it possibly halfday, all day long.
(23:39):
And if you're seeing aspecialist or therapist, it may
only be for an hour or two amonth.
That leaves a whole bunch ofother time you have to fill in.
For me, I sort of looked at themany things I did.
And the first thing was I goback to the point I made, what
is real, what isn't real, whatcan I control, and what can I
control?
(23:59):
And it takes surprisingly a lotof time, practice, and patience
to learn how to do that becauseyou know, you may jump to
conclusions and you may thinkthings and they may be wrong.
You really got to work toreframe your thoughts.
And it takes some time to dothat.
Another thing that I did wasthat really had possibly the
(24:22):
greater impact, and I didn'trealize the impact was when
you're talking whole health, onething that I really went down
was to change my diet.
I I'm 62.
I had no idea.
I mean, when we talk about it,you're on the news, and when we
talk about diet, it's usuallyabout weight loss.
I'm not talking about thatbecause I know overweight people
(24:44):
that are very healthy, they'rejust overweight.
I'm talking the content of thefood you are putting into your
body.
So I became, for example, umquite aware of dirty carbs.
And I didn't realize what anegative impact dirty carbs had
been having on my body.
I started taking them out.
(25:04):
And for the for the new listenerfor dirty carbs, it's basically
white sugar, white flour, umrice, potatoes, all of those
things create um, those carbscreate sugars in your body.
You start pulling those out,even if you just pull out, you
know, soft drinks, you know,packed with high fructose corn
(25:25):
syrup, you're gonna notice ahuge, huge impact.
And then the other thing isremoving processed foods.
Start, you know, that's verydifficult.
I get it.
It's difficult to move the dirt,remove dirty carbs.
It's in everything because it'scheap.
But going to more, I won't saynatural foods, but going more to
(25:47):
um real food, you know, freshfood, and being more cognizant
and what I was playing in mybody.
And you know, I will come tolearn that, you know, the
majority of your serotonin, andhe this is a gray, I love that
word, serotonin, it's not comingfrom your head, it's coming from
your gut.
I had no idea.
And so, you know, just what youput in, we've all heard this
(26:10):
expression, garbage in, garbageout, but it really is quite true
that you do that, and thenpossibly if you need to, you
take a supplement or you take avitamin.
I do both.
Um, all of a sudden, I feltbetter.
And this wasn't the placeboeffect.
I literally felt better.
(26:30):
My body was regulating better, Iwas stronger, I wasn't
lethargic, I didn't have, Ihaven't had, you know, hitting
the wall.
You know, people hit that wallin the middle of the day.
I haven't had that in so manyyears, I can't remember.
And I attributed it to uh tochanging the diet, what you are
(26:50):
putting into your body.
And for anybody listening tothis, it is one of the most
simple, easiest things to dowith the greatest impact that
literally anybody listening tohere right now can do.
Right now, you can get off thispodcast, do it right now, make a
change in your life.
People don't look at it thatway.
And it is one of those ways.
SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
I want to interject something here.
We have made this simple for youlisteners.
We have episodes on removing thetoxic ingredients out of your
foods, and you can listen tothat episode and click the show
description and download a listof those toxic ingredients and
how they will appear on yourfood label so that you can avoid
(27:30):
them.
And we've also developed acollection of vitamins,
minerals, and supplements thatsupport mental health and mood
regulation.
Listen to that episode, go tothe show description and
download your list.
And make sure you sign up forour newsletter at nnbl.blog
because you'll get these listsand these downloadable
(27:51):
step-by-step plans direct toyour inbox every week and it's
free for people who sign up forthe newsletter.
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I want to talk also aboutselecting the right therapist.
And here's my philosophy onchoosing a good therapist.
In my experience, any person,whether it's your family member,
your therapist, or anyone elsein your life, if they are
(29:16):
telling you what to do, what tothink, and how to feel, they
don't have your best interestsat heart.
They have another agenda.
But the folks who will help youprocess what you're thinking,
feeling, and help you developsome action steps to take
afterwards, those are the peoplewho truly have your best
(29:36):
interest at heart.
And that's one sort of litmustest that I use when I was
talking with a therapist.
I don't need one now.
Uh, but I hope you'll find thathelpful, listeners.
SPEAKER_00 (29:48):
I'd like to add to that.
Um, what I have discovered is,and people think this sort of
crash to say it, remember, theywork for you.
And what I said earlier, if yousee a therapist.
Therapist, if you're fortunate,maybe you see them twice a
month, maybe you only see themonce a month.
In my same journaling notes overtime, I still do it now.
Is if I meet with anybody, Itake notes and I prepare for my
(30:11):
meeting.
I said, I'd like to accomplishthis today.
You work for me, help me get tohere.
Why am I thinking this way?
And just don't let theconversations ramble because
there are a lot of clockcounters out there.
And they're just, you know, justtrying to drive the clock until
they get you the next episode.
And if you don't feel likeyou're accomplishing something,
(30:32):
you probably are.
It's hard work.
You will know if you areworking, you will feel you may
not feel miserable, but you mostcertainly will feel
uncomfortable.
There may be topics depending onthe trauma that could be very
sensitive and hurtful.
I get it.
But if your conversations aren'tmaking you uncomfortable and
difficult for you to manage,you're probably not doing the
(30:54):
work and they're probably notthe right person.
SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
Amen to that.
I agree with that completely.
I also want to ask you aboutsomething that comes up often,
especially in the veterancommunity, particularly among
combat veterans, this discussionof suggestions on what things
that you find helpful when thedemons come up, when those bad
(31:20):
times arise, when anniversariesof trauma arise, or just
something happens in the newsthat might take you back to a
place where you don't reallylike going.
How do you handle that?
SPEAKER_00 (31:32):
Well, again, this sort of goes back to the
journaling.
I know what my triggers are andI'm waiting and ready for them.
Now I don't like them, theyhappen.
They did different types oftriggers.
I have one smell, I have twosmells actually that can set me
off.
Um, there's certain sounds orcertain images sometimes that
will trigger me, but I'm ready.
(31:53):
You know, that's part ofmanaging yourself.
You have to be honest.
Okay, I have these triggers, andwhat will I do?
There are they they call themgrounding techniques.
I really don't like groundingtechniques.
It's too generalized becausethere's literally, if you put it
into Google, you'll getliterally dozens and dozens of
them.
But you find things, activities,things you can do when the
(32:14):
trigger comes up that that youdefault to.
So, you know, one of the biggerones, and this is actually
helpful overall, is learning howto breathe.
I did not know how to breathe.
I taught myself how to breathe.
Um, if I feel anxiety or a panicattack coming on, I have an
ability where I sit down and Islow down my world and I breathe
(32:35):
through my nose and I count andI just slow down.
And I go back to what I saidearlier.
Is this real or not real?
And can I control it?
Can I not control it?
And you do that and youacknowledge it, but you just
work with it.
And I'll tell you, it is alittle awkward at first, but
after practicing it, you whatyou find to help you is uh good.
(32:57):
So, like for uh uh for me, Iknow October 23rd, you know, the
bombing of the barracks, I knowit's gonna make me, I'm gonna be
sad that day.
So, what am I going to do?
I know I'm going to be doingsome walking, I'm going to be
some do positive affirmations,positive thinking.
I'm going to, you know, umreframe my thoughts.
(33:18):
All of these things, which youcan practice, is how you deal
with that.
And you have to deal with it.
They because it will happen.
I am now 30 plus years of myhealing, and I still have
triggers.
I don't have them as often as Iused to.
They're not as intense.
I don't have the nightmares.
I don't have the night terrorlike I did, but they do happen.
(33:39):
But you have to be responsibleand you have to you have to head
them straight on and deal withit, even if it's uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_01 (33:47):
If you're listening and you're struggling with a
mental health challenge and youdon't know how to get started or
even when to get started, andyou can work for, I recently
interviewed uh Greg Forest andMichael Nolan about their
innovative health and uh mentalhealth and addiction recovery.
(34:08):
And you can listen to thatprevious episode.
It came out just before therelease of this one.
So that will be helpful ifyou're just starting out on your
journey or thinking maybe it'stime for me to start working on
my mental health.
And then also I want to go backto talk about managing yourself.
Uh, when I spoke with uh Dr.
(34:29):
Julie Seymours about her book,Surviving Your Hospital Stay, we
talked about not just survivingyour hospital stay, but how to
choose a good healthcareprovider.
And she gives a lot of goodinsights on what your rights are
as a patient and what words youcan use when you feel like
(34:49):
you're not being heard or umyour opinion isn't being valued
by your healthcare provider.
One of the things that youtalked about here, Kevin, is
journaling.
And that's one of the firststeps to managing yourself
because if you don't write downwhat you're thinking, what
(35:10):
you're feeling, what happened inthe moment, our memories,
especially when we're managingtrauma and we're managing
stress, are not good.
You might think you rememberedwhat happened, but it's through
this lens of trauma and thislens of how you react to trauma.
(35:34):
But when you write it down, ithelps you to like put the trauma
at arm's length, step back, andum you're an observer of what
happened and how you felt aboutit and all of the things related
to that situation.
So I highly encouragejournaling, and I highly
(35:54):
encourage, like Kevin wassaying, that you need to be an
active participant in your ownmental health recovery.
It there are no magic pills.
And Kevin, I know that you havesome thoughts on um medication
that I really want to make surewe get to.
SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
Yeah, I think you know, there's there is a place
for medication, but you know, itdidn't go easy for me.
Um, certainly on the front sideof it, um, my body did not like
it.
And um, you know, you hear howit takes time, they have to
adjust the amounts.
It didn't matter.
My body just did not like it.
(36:34):
And I'm not saying it isnecessarily a bad thing, but I
give an analogy.
When you go into some of thesemedications, there has to be an
off-ramp.
And it's it's very similar tolike taking ibuprofen.
You don't take ibuprofen everyday waiting to hit your hand to
get a sore hand.
(36:55):
You take it when you have a sorehand, you take it for a while,
and then you stop.
And that that's very simplistic,but it must be part of your
conversation with who'sprescribing your medication.
Okay, we're going to go intothis.
How long are we going to, youknow, use it?
How long is it needed?
For some people, there arecertain medications that are a
(37:17):
godsend.
Um, for others, not so much.
And, you know, I think withinthe veteran community, and I
hear this a lot, is that manyfeel they're over-medicated.
And it may be a little sinister,but people generally the feeling
is you're being medicated justto calm you down, numb you out
(37:39):
so they can get to the nextperson.
You're a number.
It's an easy, quick way tomanage you.
But the reality is it is aforeign substance and you have
to go into it with um with aplan.
Just don't assume that.
And if they give you medication,just remember one thing we have
today is the internet.
You put in that, you know,medication there, and you can
(38:01):
even do on your cell phone inthe doctor's office, say, let's
talk.
What are some of the symptoms wehave?
And okay, oh, it has thissymptom.
What do we do if this happens?
And so you again, usually it'sthe psychiatrist, sometimes
nurse practitioners can give youthese medications.
Remember, they work for you, youjust don't have to default with
(38:21):
them.
And one of the things I want toadd here, and it goes with the
doctor and psychiatrist, thingsthat are having very big impacts
on your well-being.
I strongly suggest either takinga friend or you taking a partner
with you to the appointment ifit's a key appointment.
Okay, so like if you're new inmedication, um the the value of
(38:43):
taking somebody there is toguide you, remind you, support
you, advocate for you.
There's a lot of roles thatperson can do.
You know, you get in there, yourmind could be drifting, and you
may be only picking up half ofwhat that person is saying to
you.
That other person's gonna helpyou.
Hey, you know, get get centeredhere, you know, let's get back.
(39:06):
And I think that's veryimportant.
And again, even in myjournaling, I'm gonna mention
this again.
Anytime you go to a doctor'sappointment, journal it.
Take notes with them, reviewyour notes with them, you know,
date it.
And then one of the things I Ido talk about in my book about
doing with the journaling, Icall it purpose-driven writing,
is the underline keyword.
(39:26):
So you can go back and find itvery quickly.
So the thing with journalingjust isn't the processing of
downloading information, it's touse it.
I found that over time I keptjournaling the same thing and
coming up with the same thought.
And I wonder, you know, this isthis is interesting.
I keep coming.
Why do I keep coming back tothis one thought or two thoughts
(39:46):
and then processing it?
So, you know, that's just someinput on how to manage that.
And I talk about how to managethis in my book.
I think it's useful.
SPEAKER_01 (39:55):
My personal thought on medication is that it can be
very beneficial for you,especially when you're in the
acute phase of any illness, anydis-ease, and whether it's
mental health or physicalhealth.
However, what I've noticed isthat most physicians, once they
(40:18):
put you on a drug, they reallydon't want to help you work your
way off that drug.
If you are feeling like yoursenses are being dulled by the
drug to the point where you'renot thriving, you're just
surviving day to day, but youreally don't have a real life
(40:38):
because you're so numb and umsleepy all the time from the
medications of what they callside effects.
Then have that conversation withyour doctor and um advocate for
yourself.
Let's make a plan to step downor re or at a minimum reduce it.
(41:00):
Because, like Kevin was saying,in my own experience, uh I had
all of the very worst sideeffects from every medication
I've been on, includinganaphylactic shock.
And you can only surviveanaphylactic shock so many times
before maybe you don't make itthrough that.
So um be your own patientadvocate, get someone else that
(41:24):
can advocate for you, becauseit's very important that you can
communicate with your careproviders about how you're
feeling on the medication.
They may still tell you, I thinkat this point you should stay on
it, and that's valid.
But over time, if you are reallyfeeling like I don't need to be
(41:45):
on this medication, maybe talkto another healthcare provider
about the human feeling.
SPEAKER_00 (41:52):
That's exactly it, Antony.
And that's sort of what happenedwith me.
Now, I had one provider, andthis was during the COVID
period, and I had my wife withme, and my wife was a nurse, and
my wife started questioning whatshe was saying.
We were telling her what wasgoing on with me, and she was
sort of fighting me, and mywife's going, something seems
wrong here.
And I actually shifted doc Ishifted uh VA facilities and and
(42:16):
and got a better doctor, andthen they changed me, and uh,
and that wasn't my doing.
I told them what was going on.
He said, Yeah, this isn't thebest thing for you.
So it's okay to question.
Remember, I'm gonna say itagain, they work for you, and
you have never forget that, anddon't be rude, you know, right,
but they work for you, and um,if you don't feel something's
(42:38):
right, it's very possible itisn't right, right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:41):
You know, and and the more that you can calmly
say, express your thoughts andfeelings, then the more the
easier it is for your healthcareprovider to really listen to
you.
But the more agitated you are asyou're talking to your
healthcare provider, it kind offeeds into what they're saying,
(43:02):
which is I don't think youshould get off this medication,
and your agitated state tells mereinforces that I'm right, the
meaning that the provider isright to keep you on the
medication.
So stay calm, use your words.
Uh, Dr.
Seymours gives you a lot of uhadvice on what to say.
Before we um end thisconversation, which has been so
(43:26):
insightful, Kevin.
What more do you want thelisteners to know?
SPEAKER_00 (43:31):
I think it depends where you are in your healing
journey, but I meet a lot ofpeople early on in their healing
journey, and uh there's twothings.
One is it does get better.
You know, there's so much moreinformation today, so many
resources.
There's podcasts, there'sYouTube, there's papers, there's
(43:52):
articles you can read on theinternet.
We had none of that 30 yearsago, and it would have been a
huge help to say, you know,okay, it is going to get better.
The other one is you're notalone.
I am just amazed by the numberof veterans, the percentage of
veterans that have PTSD relatedissues.
It's no small number, very highpercentage.
(44:14):
So the chances if you can get insome type of support group or if
you can meet up with otherpeople similar to you, more
likely than not, you'll have asupport network because they get
it, and that's a beautifulthing.
The other thing is one of thepractices I tell everybody to do
(44:34):
is you're gonna be learning somenew things.
They may sound different, theymay sound strange, but fake it
till you make it is theapproach.
You're gonna, you know,particularly in therapy or you
know, grounding techniques orany of these things we're
talking about, it's gonna feeluncomfortable, it's gonna feel
awkward.
It does just hang in there,stick with it, because if you
(44:58):
keep doing it, your behaviorsand your approaches will change,
and and that helps you find hopeand makes you feel better, and
things do get better.
But I can tell you after being30 years in the healing process,
it gets better.
And honestly, some miraculousthings can happen.
I mean, I wrote a book.
Who would have ever thought, youknow, I'd write a book and the
(45:18):
book would take off?
I mean, technically speaking,I'm I'm a nobody, you know, I'm
one guy, but I'm in the realmof, you know, there's probably
two, three hundred thousand, youknow, mental health books and
twenty, thirty thousand PTSDbooks, and my book continues
just staying right there at thetop.
And uh, you know, don't make itharder than it is, but just
(45:40):
you're gonna have to confrontyour demons and you're gonna
have to work at it.
SPEAKER_01 (45:43):
Well, thank you for that.
We wish you continued successwith your book and your speaking
in your veteran advocacy.
Until next time, friends, I'mAntoinette Lee, your wellness
warrior here at the New NormalBig Life Podcast.
I hope one day to see you on theriver, in the backcountry, or in
the horse barn living your bestlife.
Struggling with health problemsor seeking natural health
solutions?
Don't miss our latest podcastepisodes, exclusive blog posts,
(46:06):
and free ebooks packed withlife-changing wellness tips.
Join our newsletter at nnbl.blogto unlock this bonus content and
start living your best lifetoday.
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Magnesium expert Natalie Girado,founder of Rooted In, found
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