June 25, 2025 • 39 mins
This week, we’re trying something new: instead of our usual Next City episode, we’re sharing the pilot for “Not My Narrative,” an experimental mini-series that not only debunks harmful myths holding back progress but also elevates the counter-narratives driving positive momentum.
In this debut episode of Not My Narrative, Host Lucas Grindley, Executive Director of Next City, takes listeners on an examination of one of America’s most pernicious myths: the “pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps” mantra that claims anyone who works hard enough can escape poverty. We trace its origins from 19th-century satire to Reagan, Gingrich, and Clinton, and we’ll hear from practitioners who say the “bootstrap” story is quietly determining who merits public assistance, who deserves our sympathy, and who must simply fend for themselves.
To unravel its origins and expose its consequences, Luis Ortega, founder of Storytellers for Change, draws on his background in education and community organizing to explain how the bootstraps narrative is woven into our schools, our public discourse, and even our own self-perception. He challenges us to see that when achievement is framed solely as personal grit, it erases entire ecosystems of support—families, neighbors, networks—that actually make success possible.
Plus, we revisit two Next City interviews that show what “it takes a village” truly means, as communities care for one another. In Jackson, Mississippi, Aisha Nyandoro, co-founder of Magnolia Mother’s Trust, shares how her guaranteed-income pilot for Black mothers demonstrates that material support and dignity go hand in hand. And we revisit a conversation out of Portland, Oregon, where Lisa Larson, vice-chair of Dignity Village, recounts her journey from sleeping on the streets to helping govern a community for the unhoused.
If you believe in the power of narrative change—and want more episodes that debunk harmful myths while elevating real-world solutions—please email us at info@nextcity.org and let’s think about ways to keep this work going.
In this debut episode of Not My Narrative, Host Lucas Grindley, Executive Director of Next City, takes listeners on an examination of one of America’s most pernicious myths: the “pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps” mantra that claims anyone who works hard enough can escape poverty. We trace its origins from 19th-century satire to Reagan, Gingrich, and Clinton, and we’ll hear from practitioners who say the “bootstrap” story is quietly determining who merits public assistance, who deserves our sympathy, and who must simply fend for themselves.
To unravel its origins and expose its consequences, Luis Ortega, founder of Storytellers for Change, draws on his background in education and community organizing to explain how the bootstraps narrative is woven into our schools, our public discourse, and even our own self-perception. He challenges us to see that when achievement is framed solely as personal grit, it erases entire ecosystems of support—families, neighbors, networks—that actually make success possible.
Plus, we revisit two Next City interviews that show what “it takes a village” truly means, as communities care for one another. In Jackson, Mississippi, Aisha Nyandoro, co-founder of Magnolia Mother’s Trust, shares how her guaranteed-income pilot for Black mothers demonstrates that material support and dignity go hand in hand. And we revisit a conversation out of Portland, Oregon, where Lisa Larson, vice-chair of Dignity Village, recounts her journey from sleeping on the streets to helping govern a community for the unhoused.
If you believe in the power of narrative change—and want more episodes that debunk harmful myths while elevating real-world solutions—please email us at info@nextcity.org and let’s think about ways to keep this work going.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Strawhut Media.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hey everyone, this week we're swapping our regular episode to
bring you a pilot of a series we're imagining. It's
called Not My Narrative. On the show, we unpacked the
false narratives that suddenly shape our country and the counter
narratives needed to drive real change. If you like this format,
email us at info atnexcity dot org and help us
find supporters to bring more episodes your way Here is
(00:29):
Not My Narrative. Narratives are all around us. They're shaping
the world we live in, but they're invisible. They are
(00:52):
the stories about who we are as Americans.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
It has now messed with the American dream for so
many people.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
They are our value.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
We have attached these layers of shame, blame, deservedness on.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Top of receipt of any benefit whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Narratives are deciding what gets done. You know, how can
you help both and how can we help you? Imagine
if you could look into the playbook of the other side.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
You could also have a story really challenges this narrative.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
So there's sort of this narrative not true, very popular
claim to fame not true.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
This is not My Narrative. A podcast from Next City.
I'm Lucas Gridley, executive director of Next City. On every
episode will break down one of these harmful ways of thinking.
Then we'll introduce you to the change makers offering an alternative.
Here's one you've probably heard. With hard work, poor people
can pull themselves out of poverty. On this episode, the
Bootstraps narrative.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
We have to just acknowledge that bootstrap narrative is so
deeply embedded in American consciousness and in our public deaseas course,
but we have to understand that bootstrap narrative is a
belief system that oftentios up with other awards or other
sentences that are coated with this idea. And I think
for me, the single greatest idea to me embodies bootstrap
(02:17):
narrative is the American dream.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
That is Luis Ortega. The Bootstrap's mindset is one of
the many broken narratives that he's fighting. Louise founded Storytellers
for Change, and we're going to hear from him later
in the episode. But you heard him say that the
Bootstraps narrative is a belief system that shows up in
other places, and we're going to head to one of
those places right now. Jackson Mississippi, where Aisha Nayandoro is
(02:41):
working to help black moms who are struggling to pay
the bills.
Speaker 6 (02:44):
We work with individuals who are extremely well income black
mothers living in the stuff. So how often is that
population actually given an opportunity where their needs are at
the forefront of the conversation, and how often are they
ever given an opportunity just to say, Okay, we trust you,
we see you, we understand it. You are under resourced,
(03:05):
and we understand it. You are being under resource. It's
not for any misdoing of your own because the systematic
failures that are in place.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Each mom in the Magnolia Mother's Trust Program receives one
thousand dollars a month for twelve months, no strings attached.
It's what we call guaranteed income, and it's the opposite
of the bootstraps narrative.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
I knew immediately that what it was that we were
doing was profound and that it would change the narrative
in this country, but that it also would change lots
of the women that we were working with. We have
been a part of a larger movement that is really
changing the narrative around cash and really changing the narrative
(03:46):
around our social safety net and really calling out the
fact that individuals are poor not because of choice or limitations,
but because of policy feelings.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
If you believe people can really pull themselves up by
their bootstraps, then you don't believe we need guaranteed income programs.
Because what the American fable really says is that poverty
is solvable and their solution is you. In other words,
poor people are to blame for their own poverty, not me,
not us. We don't have any responsibility, not for your poverty.
(04:18):
The truth is, the bootstrap strategy has no systemic record
of success anywhere in the United States. Can you name
a state where every helping hand, every part of the
social safety net was just snatched away and the poverty
rate went down? Of course not so, where does this
made up story come from. Let's start there with its
(04:39):
real origins. This is how Representative Alexandria al Casio Cortez
of New York described the pull yourself up by your
bootstraps trope during a hearing on Capitol Hill.
Speaker 5 (04:51):
Miss Hutchinson, I also want to thank you about bringing
up the poverty draft and this idea of a bootstrap.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
You know, this idea, and.
Speaker 6 (04:57):
This metaphor of a bootstrap started off as a oak
because it's a physical impossibility to lift yourself up by
a bootstrap, by your shoelaces.
Speaker 7 (05:08):
It's physically impossible.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
The whole thing is a joke.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
The whole thing is a joke. So joining me now
is Next City's editorial director, Deanna Anderson. I had never
heard that before. How about you?
Speaker 4 (05:21):
No, I hadn't either, But it turns out that she's right,
pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Start it as a joke.
The earliest known reference is a newspaper article in eighteen
thirty four. It was published in The Workingman's Advocate.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Which I'd probably have subscribed to.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Yeah, I might have been the editorial director of that. Actually,
they published a snarky response to a bit of breaking
news that sounded too good to be true. A man
named Nimron Murphy claimed he invented a perpetual motion machine,
one that could keep working without the need for an
engine or fuel or people.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Okay, so the Workings Advocate, here's this claim, and responded,
can I read the response for you?
Speaker 8 (06:05):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Please give me a dramatic reading.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Okay, mister Murphy will now be enabled to hand himself
over the Cumberland River or a barnyard fence by the
straps of his boots.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
That I believe is eighteen thirty four level snark. But
when did the phrase stop being a joke?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
We don't know exactly when it stopped being a joke.
But maybe it doesn't matter, because what we know for
sure is that President Ronald Reagan weaponized the bootstraps narrative. Now,
I've never actually heard him use the word bootstraps, but
he's often credited with popularizing the idea by telling the
story in other forms over and over. Here he is
(06:43):
giving a speech in nineteen eighty one to the World
Affairs Council of Philadelphia.
Speaker 9 (06:48):
We Americans can speak from experience on this subject. When
the original settlers arrived here, they faced a wilderness where
poverty was there daily lot, danger and starvation their close companions.
But through all the danger's disappointments and setbacks, they kept
(07:09):
their faith. They never stopped believing that with a freedom
to try and try again, they could make tomorrow a
better day.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
You'd think it were part of American history textbooks. The
way he says it, try and try again. That's what
it takes to get out of poverty, just like the
original settlers did.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
But the original settlers didn't lift themselves up by their bootstraps,
you know, like that's not how it happened at all.
It was in sixteen oh seven when the first permanent
English settlement was established in Jamestown, Virginia, And it was
sixteen nineteen, twelve years later when the first recorded Africans
were kidnapped, brought to Jamestown and sold into slavery. Then
(07:52):
institutionalized slavery lasted here for two hundred and forty six years.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
So Reggan's story about Americans try and trying again until
they could lift themselves out of poverty is revisionist history, yes,
exactly that, But it's also part of a bigger picture
that he's trying to create. Reagan became the president who
popularized the scare story about welfare queens who were living
off government handouts. They're the villains that are driving up
(08:20):
our bills instead of working.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
You remember this, I've definitely heard of it.
Speaker 8 (08:25):
In Chicago, they found a woman who holds the record.
She used eighty names, thirty addresses, fifteen telephone numbers to
collect food stamps social Security, veterans benefits for four non
existent deceased veterans husbands, as well as welfare. Her tax
free cash income alone has been running one hundred and
(08:45):
fifty thousand dollars a year.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
And don't forget we found out later that women in
Chicago wasn't black, she was white.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
That is ridiculous. It's all a lie, yes, But is
that strong enough of a story to convince Americans to
gut all of welfare? Because that's what he was trying
to do.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Right, And he started things in motion, But it was
Newt Gingrich who really finished the.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Job, right, So tell us that story.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
So, as Speaker of the House, he championed the so
called Contract with America. Conservatives set to watch out for
people with poor character who didn't value family of work
because they were taking advantage of the broken big government system.
They promised a welfare reform that would reduce dependency on
government assistance and instead promote individual responsibility. Here he is
(09:36):
in a c SPAN video promoting the so called Personal
Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I believe absolutely he is going to sign this bill,
and I think that's good for America, and I think
it's good for the poor to begin to replace welfare
with the work ethic, and we ought to recognize that
this is bill. This bill is a substantial, positive step
to help all Americans have the right to pursue happiness.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Sell Gross. The important thing here is he says it's
good for poor people to replace welfare with a work ethic.
So then what Clinton scientist?
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Yeah he does.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
If you can't beat him, join him, I guess.
Speaker 8 (10:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
It was actually President Clinton, a Democrat, who spread the
notion of welfare to work.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
And that's why we call him the Great Communicator.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
It's hard to believe, but here is a nineteen ninety
two campaign ad.
Speaker 10 (10:27):
So long government has failed us, and one of its
worst figures has been welfare. I have a plan to
end welfare as we know it, to break the cycle
of welfare dependency. We'll provide education, job training, and childcare.
But then those who are able must go to work,
either in the private sector or in public service. I
know it can work. In my state, we move seventeen
(10:49):
thousand people from welfare roles to payrolls. It's time to
make welfare what it should be, a second chance, not
a way of life.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
End welfare as we know it move people from wealth
welfare roles to pay rolls.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Just stop helping people who don't deserve it.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
And that brings us back to Aisha Iandoro and Jackson, Mississippi.
When welfare reform passed, the government created block grant programs
so that states could spend welfare money however they chose,
and the system still exists today in Mississippi and all
across the country. It's cited by Aisha Iandoro as part
of why there's no funding for guaranteed income programs, and
(11:26):
it's all part of the effects of replacing welfare with
a work ethic, which is like replacing benefits with bootstraps.
More on that story after the break. Welcome back to
not my narrative. Magnolia. Mother's Trust and the moms it
(11:47):
serves do not get any money from those block grants
created to replace welfare as we know it. Here again
is Aisha and Iandoro.
Speaker 6 (11:55):
All of our money comes from private philanthropy. It is
still something that is not state funded or federally funded.
I am in Mississippi, So let's just be very clear
that the conservative state and so the idea that I
will have government funding in order just to give away
to poor black women would be would be ludicrous and hilarious,
probably to many of them.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
The bootstraps narrative is supposed to be about perseverance. I
don't know about you, Deanna, but that sounds more like
an excuse not to help people.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Yeah, what they're really trying to say is you can't
trust black women with the government's money.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
So as we break down the bootstraps narrative, let's turn
our focus now to one potential counter narrative.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
And that is it takes a village. We have two
examples of that in.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Action, right. But first, when you say that, you know
what I'm thinking of is Hillary Clinton's book. I don't
know if you remember the book.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
No, I didn't read that, so tell me more.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Oddly enough, right about the same time when Bill Clinton
was passing welfare reform by blaming black moms for taking
advantage of society's goodwill, his wife Hillary Clinton was making
headlines in nineteen ninety five for her new book called
It Takes a Village, and conservatives were furious about the title.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
Well, we want to hear from you this morning.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
What you think it takes to raise a child?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
If it takes a family or village. You can see
the numbers there on the screen.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Now, the whole point is depending on how you view
a village.
Speaker 6 (13:14):
A village is a place where people can support one another,
or village is someplace where you can dump folks and
have somebody else take care of them.
Speaker 9 (13:20):
I am here to tell you it does not take
a bilitage to raise a child.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
It takes a family to raise a child.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Dump your children in the village.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
We have to put out that the idea that it
takes a village to raise a child originated from an
old African proverb, and they seem to imply African values
aren't American values.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
If you ask me. They were upset because Hillary Clinton
had perfectly identified the counter to this bogus bootstrap's mentality.
Here she is in the very first sentence of her
Grammy winning audiobook.
Speaker 7 (13:55):
Children are not rugged individualists. They depend on the adults
they know and one thousands more who make decisions every
day that affect their well being.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Children are not rugged individualists.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
And really none of us are, which is why we
need things like guaranteed income.
Speaker 6 (14:14):
So when we talk about poverty, we really believe that, oh,
individuals should just work harder or work more. Is all
of these things that are individuals should do. But the
reality is, if we really interrogate more deeply what individuals
are doing, we'll actually see that individuals, the majority of
individuals that live in poverty are working. They are working more,
but they are working in jobs where they are only
(14:36):
especially here if you're in the South, where our federal
minimal wage of seven dollars and twenty five cents an hour,
where we don't have paid family leave, where we don't
have access to healthcare, where there is no child care infrastructure,
so individuals can only work so much and to the
place where policies have to meet us where we are,
and our policies are continuously failing to do that. So
(15:00):
that's where we see it being a policy failing. But
then also where we see individuals leaning into this narrative
of being a personal failing. It's just the stories that
we tell ourselves. And I feel that we tell ourselves
these stories about poverty because it allows us to absolve
ourselves of any guilt, and we make it feel as
if it's something that we don't have control over, and reality, yes,
(15:21):
we do. We all have control over the policies that
are in place.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Aisha n Iyandoro's program is the longest running example of
guaranteed income ever conducted in the United States. She has
plenty of statistics showing we have control over fixing poverty. Collectively,
moms in the Magnolia Mother's Trust Program have paid off
ten thousand dollars in predatory debt, and the percentage of
moms who said they could pay all their bills on
(15:46):
time went from twenty seven percent to eighty three percent.
The number of moms who had money saved for emergencies doubled.
And Diana, what if someone says, hey, that's just a
small group of moms in one city, Well.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
My response will be that we've tested something very similar
already on a massive scale.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Really and what was it?
Speaker 4 (16:07):
It was the Child Welfare tax Credit. It lasted just
one year, and the US Census Bureau says that in
twenty twenty three, the rate of poverty among children in
the United States had more than doubled after it ended,
going from five point two percent in twenty twenty one
to twelve point four percent in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I remember that I'm a parent, so we got to
check every month for a year during the pandemic.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
Yeah, and it made a difference in the lives of
five point two million kids.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I used to says the Bootsteps narrative. Let's us sleep
at night, But it's hard to imagine lawmakers sleeping at
night knowing they put five point two million kids back
in poverty. I guess everyone knows there are thousands of
our neighbors living on very little money. And we can
sleep at night if we're not responsible, if we think
it's those people's fault and that we're better. We're not
(16:57):
like them, right, We're not like them.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
We're better than them. We know better and couldn't possibly
end up in the same situation. That's another thing. Aisha says,
the way the government runs welfare turns recipients into subordinates.
She calls it paternalistic.
Speaker 6 (17:14):
Because they are paternalistic. They actually don't center the needs
of families. It is other individuals telling you what it
is that you need, not based on any lived experiences,
not based on understanding the dynamics of your families, not
understanding your situation. It really is steeped in ideas and
narratives that in a lot of places are not centered
(17:35):
in trust or dignity or honoring.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Who you are.
Speaker 6 (17:39):
They are centered in tropes and ideologies that are just false,
and so that's why they're paternalistic in nature. A lot
of our policies are very humanizing.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
What she's saying that boils down to a lack of trust.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
As a society, we're taught not to trust.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
People who need help, right and the lack of trust
is so big that Aisha says she doesn't actually know
anyone who qualifies for her state's welfare program. Instead, money
just goes unspent sitting there in state coffers.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
And people need that money. The Magnolia Mother's Trust Program
is proof that that money will make a difference in
a world where it takes a village to lift people
out of poverty.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
We have to trust each other absolutely. Thank you for
helping us walk through all this, Deianna.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Now, to further underscore our point, we're going to visit
an actual literal village. Dignity Village in Portland, Oregon is
a community for people experiencing homelessness. The village has its
own land, which is sanctioned by the city, but isn't
run by the city. Instead, it's run by those who
have arrived there with no place to live. Here is
Lisa Larson.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Well, when I first heard about Dignity Village, it was
back when the village was first starting, and I saw
them on the news making national headlines, and I told
my kids, why can't those homeless people get off their
butts and do acepthing. Well, a few years down the
road and a few very abusive relationships, I ended up
living out on the streets and we were reminded about
(19:17):
Dignity Village. And so the man I'm with now, the
love of my life, and I came out and checked
into Dignity got on the wait list. And that was
thirteen years ago, and it's definitely not what I thought.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Lisa Larson, like many women, lost her home when she
left an abusive relationship. She spent a year sleeping in
public spaces like parks or in abandoned houses, which got
her arrested twice for criminal trespassing. So when she heard
about Dignity Village, Lisa added her name to the waitlist. Today,
she lives there with her partner and serves as the
village's outreach coordinator. She was even elected to serve as
(19:56):
the village council's vice chairwoman. Along the way, she we
had to unlearn all the terrible things society taught her
about what it means to be a person without a home.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
I dare to be like all the people that you
see out on the streets that you know, oh they're
the homeless. You know, they're dirty, they're they're typical what
people think of the homeless, and dignity is more like
a huge family. We might be a little dysfunctional, but
we all survive out here, and most of us are
(20:27):
not the I hate using this word, but the typical
homeless that people think about when they think of the unhoused.
We're just people trying to survive.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yeah, you'd say there's some stigma about what it means
to be homeless. There's a picture in people's minds that
you think is not accurate.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Absolutely, and it's going to be become more and more
inaccurate as time goes on, because we're losing the middle class,
in my opinion, and so there's going to be the
rich people and then the poor people. And there's poor
people are just be a paycheck away or a major
accident or anything that's going to financially hurt them before
(21:07):
they are out on the streets.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, it's hard sometimes for people to imagine themselves in
that position. It sounds like you were one of those
people at some point, but then have figured out the
fine line.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
I was, But you know, becoming homeless probably one of
the best things that ever happened to me. I found compassion.
I found that being human to one another is far
better than being a stuck up little snob. So, I
don't know, I find that I feel I'm a better
person than I was before, even though I have, you know,
(21:40):
little money, and we live in a homeless encampment. But
it's great.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
It's great to be treated as an equal, and that
is maybe the most important thing they do at Dignity Village,
where it takes a village to solve homelessness. To change
her own life, Lisa Larson had to unlearn the old
narrative about people like her. She'd internalized what media and
society and everyone had told her. And the truth is,
all of us are surrounded by the bootstraps narrative. We
(22:10):
all live with it. We're soaking it up all the time.
And after the break, we're going to talk with someone
who is dedicating his life to examining how and why
these stories govern our lives and what we can do
about it.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
In the US, I think often times there's this idea
that education is the great equalizer, and in many ways
I believe as someone that's dedicated my career to thinking
a great deal about how narratives and specifically a boodstuff
nrative shape our education system, I would argue that unfortunately,
how our system is set up right now is actually
(22:51):
sustaining inequity instead of addressing it.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
This is Louis Ortega. You heard from him when we
started the episode, and in twenty ten he found it
Storytellers for Change, a collective for people who say they're
united by one purpose to build an empathetic and more
equitable world. He's seen directly how narratives play out in
our everyday lives.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
Our mission is to collaborate with change makers and organizations
to imagine, craft and share stories to build an equitable world.
And also that we historically think about what stories have
been privileged in terms of institutional power, so which stories
are disseminated through holidays, through books, through curriculum in schools.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
With his background and education and having worked in schools,
Louis says, even well meaning people in the education system
oftentimes fall into the trap of assigning responsibility for success
to an individual. The community isn't responsible for your port
card or your child's report card. You are right, Well,
what if there's more to it than that?
Speaker 5 (23:57):
The idea, right is that everyone who who words hard
enough kind achieve. The American dream permeates so much of
our political culture, and it's very much ingrained in how
we think about who should succeed and how we succeed
in an educational setting. But the thing is, like, when
(24:17):
you read between the lines the logic that's justifying this system,
it's also the idea that if you don't succeed, it
must be because you didn't try hard enough. In the
education sector, there's a whole series of beliefs around what
I call the achievement culture. There's a whole series of
(24:38):
tech talks and books and professional development that focuses on
this idea of resilience or great words that I don't
think people oftentimes but associate with, Oh, that's reinforcing the
book straight narrative. So without asking systemic questions, without recognizing
the historical under resourcing of school districts that primary serve
(25:00):
families that are poor or families of color. Then you
end up justifying this idea of personal responsibility.
Speaker 9 (25:09):
Right.
Speaker 5 (25:09):
It may even sound reasonable or fair or even more right,
this whole idea of personal responsibility. We need to teach
hard work ethic, right, we need to teach character building.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Right.
Speaker 5 (25:25):
These are the ways this language shows up. I think
in very new one's ways in everyday life that we
may not always necessarily be able to identify at the beginning.
And I think that's a great place to think about
how these narrative shows up.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
The other thing we're talking about is the counter narrative
to this idea that it is just personal responsibility. You
should pull yourself up by your bootstraps, work harder. The
other idea is, yeah, look at the classroom, the school,
the whole neighborhood and think about it as our collective responsibility.
That it takes a village, that old idea about you know,
(26:03):
the whole village coming together to help raise the children.
Are there ways that in our everyday lives and classrooms
that we're experiencing that we can help, or in school
board meetings that we can help emphasize that it is
all of our responsibility.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
Yeah, absolutely, And I think about it a lot through
my personal experience, and it's important to think also about
this through the lens of my own immigrant experience in
this country, which very much is also driven by the
notion of the American dream. So when I immigrated to this
country in two thousand and one and began my high
(26:40):
school journey here, I was able to perform academically quite well,
and it was oftentimes repeated to me and reformed to
me right that that made me worthy essentially of colorhips,
(27:00):
worthy of additional support, worthy of leadership opportunities. And what
I learned then very quickly is if I achieve academically,
that equals opportunity.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Right.
Speaker 5 (27:14):
Therefore, I definitely want to continue doing that. And it
was oftentimes attributed to me as an individual over time
because I'm also an immigrant and I'm a nondocumented immigrant.
What that does to me is that it puts me
into this category that politically socially has been called the dreamers, right,
(27:35):
this idea that these young, successful, ideal immigrants right are
the serving of additional support, and that by the fact
that creates a separation from me and my family. I
am the worthy immigrant. My mom, my grandmother, other friends,
(27:56):
other family members, they are not worthy, right, And it
just reproduces this hierarchy, this idea that okay, you are
the serving of the American dream. Were even going to
call you a dreamer, And that became language that really
impacted how I saw myself, how I thought about myself.
It wasn't until a few years later that I began
(28:17):
to just really critically think about this and through a
lot of community organizing and mentorship and activism, that it
was never my intention to erase. And this is you know,
I get a little emotional when I think about this,
because it was never my intention to erase the contributions
of my mom and my grandma, and my mentors and
(28:39):
my teachers and how I told my story. But as
a high school student, I was conditioned very quickly to
think about emphasizing myself and my desire and using this
language that I knew had great appeal to justify also
a pathway for me to succeed. And I think this
is what's so insidvideos about this too, right, that we
(29:02):
end up even ourselves who are impacted by these systems
of naratives by these structures that are deeply in equable,
deeply harmful, win those sustaining them, because there is a
benefit to being able to drive through that particular narrative
and to use it to justify your success. So I
think how we come through it. You're exactly right, like
(29:23):
it does take a village, and I think we need
to make it visible. You know, a long time ago,
now it's been over a decade that I made a
very strong commitment that whenever I tell my story about
what it's been like for me to move through the
education system in this country, what has been like for
me as an entrepreneur, to always uplift the whole ecosystem
(29:46):
of people that have been part and continue to be
part of my success. So moving from ecosystem to ecosystem
is so crucial to how we make it visible that
all of us are in relationships that are impacting our pathways.
And I think what also happens when you make these
relationships visible, structures, family structures, cultural structures become visible. But
(30:11):
also it is easier than to pinpoint to the systemic
or policies that are not emphasizing those relationships or not
allowed for those relationships to help all of those strive
and flourish in our own ways.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
You know, thank you for putting in such personal terms
about how insidious the narrative can be. That we do
need to move from an ego based system to an
ecosystem way of talking about our own successes. And you
talked about how it makes you feel now looking back
on your success in the way that you talk about it.
(30:49):
How do you think your other family members feel when
you say that they're being put on a dividing line
with you. Do they feel that too in a different way?
Speaker 5 (31:01):
Yes, And this is a conversation that I've had many times,
not just with my family, specifically my mom, but also
with other friends and other colleagues, mentors, fellow community organizers.
And in a way, you know, with my mom that's
(31:23):
been the more emotional, complicated discussion because in a way,
my mom was very willing to say, yes, you succeed.
I came here so that you could succeed. And I
think part of it, again, right, is that that conditioning, right,
that idea that like, well, that's for an immigrant parent, right,
(31:45):
like that that that is ultimately your goal to be
able to do something for your children and to provide
them with a better life. And I challenged that. I
challenged that so strongly. My mom's well being is interpoined
with mine. I need her to drive so I can drive.
This doesn't have to be a binary and I think
(32:07):
in many ways we do need to break out of
binary thinking when it comes to how we talk about
well being an achievement and success. That that is to me, right,
what in essence it needs to happen for us to
transform this narrative is to really think in a collectives way.
But that was difficult, right, It was difficult to hear
(32:29):
from my mom. You know, it's like that's okay, right,
Like if you do well, that's a good thing. And
in other ways too, right, like when I will tell
my story, you know, struggling through housing insecurity is struggling
through all kinds of and that this is the thing too, right.
I think it's so important to also understand about footstrap narratives.
(32:51):
They have an appeal. There is something about the story
of the single hero, the unlikely journey, the underdog that
makes it. And I remember so many times early on
when I was speaking very publicly about my immigration experience,
but driving academically and how often I would hear people
(33:12):
come to me afterwards to tell me that's so inspiring.
And inside, although a part of me felt like it
feels good to be told that you're inspiring, inside I
was hurting. I was not doing well. But I understood
in some way that I needed to sound inspiring right
to justify.
Speaker 8 (33:34):
My in this.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
Particular case, like a very specific policy agenda in terms
of advocating for imigrant rights, that I had to sound
inspiring to be able to justify receiving a scholarship. You
don't want to get a scholarship essay about how your
struggling with your mental health. You want to receive a
scholarship essay that tells you how, yes, you went through
some struggles, but you're driving and you have big dreams
(33:55):
and you're going to make it. Because even the entire
system that you are having to navigate, it's pointing you
time and again back towards Okay, how do you keep
emphasizing your resilience, your capacity to navigate these huge barriers
that have put in front of you. And I honestly
think that it's not only hurting individuals. I think it's
(34:16):
hurting all of us collectively. When we just focus on
those aspects of our lift experience at the expense of
our relationships and what are also very real and challenging
struggles that we need to grapple with.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
That is such a paradox because the entire idea behind
the Bootstraps narrative is that it's on the individual, it's
their personal responsibility that made them a success. And then
if you read from the script like you're saying, you
end up actually hiding so much about yourself that you're
not actually who you are. You can't be you have
(34:50):
to be this other idealized version that we've created.
Speaker 5 (34:53):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I think in some ways
right like this this is sort of these band, right,
we do have to dance between this idea of individual
effort and how we are collectively impacting each other. That
is one of the challenges that we need to take
on for those of those that think about narrative and help.
(35:14):
How do we develop creative interventions to shows different ways
to discuss questions issues around achievement and our life stories
and what that looks like and that there is a
space for individuality in a larger, more ecosystemic, more collective
is story because I think the some of the pushback
(35:39):
that I've heard sometimes is precisely around this question. Right,
It's like, well, you know, so, where does the individual
exist in a collective ast narrative. How do we still
talk about invidual traits and strengths And we absolutely can
do it, And emphasizing relationship and systems is important too,
so again, not one or the other. We need nertives
(36:02):
that I acknowledge the whole. That's why for me, I
go back to Joe's my example of how I've made
a commitment and how I tell my story to always
very specifically, highlighting and making visible is the language that
I use, making visible the many relationships that have supported
me in my journey. And I think that's one way
(36:24):
of countering that.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
The nerve that is such good advice for everybody, Well,
louis from storytellers for change. You're the founder there. I
feel like this is so much more real now that
we've talked.
Speaker 5 (36:37):
The one other thing that I also mentioned, just because
it's something that I do think it's true that even
with the narative, it takes a village that we have
to really emphasize that it's not just about raising a
single child, that it is about ensuring that all of
(36:57):
our children drive. I u's heard that it takes a
village to raise a child and it also takes a
village to leave one behind.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Thanks Louise, Thank you Lucas. That's where we'll end our
examination of the bootstraps narrative. Hopefully we've helped uncover where
this idea comes from, that it started as a joke,
and where this narrative is playing out today and deciding
who among us is deserving of our help when lawmakers
choose which programs to fund, will be better off if
(37:27):
they recognize that it takes a village to pull people
out of poverty, not just better bootstraps. And I feel
like Louis has given us a lot to think about
in our own lives. How do we contribute to this narrative,
even in how we choose to tell our own stories.
(38:03):
We hope you enjoyed this episode. Not My Narrative is
a Next City podcast. By the way, Next City is
a news organization with a nonprofit model. If you like
what we're doing here, please consider pitching in to support
our work. Visit nextcity dot org slash membership to make
a donation. Not My Narrative is produced with support from
PRX and is made possible in part by a grant
(38:24):
from the john S and James L. Knight Foundation. Our
audio producer is Silvana Alcala, Our show producer is Maggie Bowles,
our executive producer is Ryan Tillotson, and I'm Lucas Grinley
executive director for Next City Special Thanks to Jason Foster
of Destination Crenshaw, who helped us imagine this new show.
We'd love to hear any feedback from our listeners. Please
feel free to email us at info at nexcity dot
(38:46):
org and if you haven't already subscribed to Not My
Narrative on Apple, Spotify, Good Pods, or anywhere you listen
to your podcasts, No
Strawhut Media.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hey everyone, this week we're swapping our regular episode to
bring you a pilot of a series we're imagining. It's
called Not My Narrative. On the show, we unpacked the
false narratives that suddenly shape our country and the counter
narratives needed to drive real change. If you like this format,
email us at info atnexcity dot org and help us
find supporters to bring more episodes your way Here is
(00:29):
Not My Narrative. Narratives are all around us. They're shaping
the world we live in, but they're invisible. They are
(00:52):
the stories about who we are as Americans.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
It has now messed with the American dream for so
many people.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
They are our value.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
We have attached these layers of shame, blame, deservedness on.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Top of receipt of any benefit whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Narratives are deciding what gets done. You know, how can
you help both and how can we help you? Imagine
if you could look into the playbook of the other side.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
You could also have a story really challenges this narrative.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
So there's sort of this narrative not true, very popular
claim to fame not true.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
This is not My Narrative. A podcast from Next City.
I'm Lucas Gridley, executive director of Next City. On every
episode will break down one of these harmful ways of thinking.
Then we'll introduce you to the change makers offering an alternative.
Here's one you've probably heard. With hard work, poor people
can pull themselves out of poverty. On this episode, the
Bootstraps narrative.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
We have to just acknowledge that bootstrap narrative is so
deeply embedded in American consciousness and in our public deaseas course,
but we have to understand that bootstrap narrative is a
belief system that oftentios up with other awards or other
sentences that are coated with this idea. And I think
for me, the single greatest idea to me embodies bootstrap
(02:17):
narrative is the American dream.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
That is Luis Ortega. The Bootstrap's mindset is one of
the many broken narratives that he's fighting. Louise founded Storytellers
for Change, and we're going to hear from him later
in the episode. But you heard him say that the
Bootstraps narrative is a belief system that shows up in
other places, and we're going to head to one of
those places right now. Jackson Mississippi, where Aisha Nayandoro is
(02:41):
working to help black moms who are struggling to pay
the bills.
Speaker 6 (02:44):
We work with individuals who are extremely well income black
mothers living in the stuff. So how often is that
population actually given an opportunity where their needs are at
the forefront of the conversation, and how often are they
ever given an opportunity just to say, Okay, we trust you,
we see you, we understand it. You are under resourced,
(03:05):
and we understand it. You are being under resource. It's
not for any misdoing of your own because the systematic
failures that are in place.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Each mom in the Magnolia Mother's Trust Program receives one
thousand dollars a month for twelve months, no strings attached.
It's what we call guaranteed income, and it's the opposite
of the bootstraps narrative.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
I knew immediately that what it was that we were
doing was profound and that it would change the narrative
in this country, but that it also would change lots
of the women that we were working with. We have
been a part of a larger movement that is really
changing the narrative around cash and really changing the narrative
(03:46):
around our social safety net and really calling out the
fact that individuals are poor not because of choice or limitations,
but because of policy feelings.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
If you believe people can really pull themselves up by
their bootstraps, then you don't believe we need guaranteed income programs.
Because what the American fable really says is that poverty
is solvable and their solution is you. In other words,
poor people are to blame for their own poverty, not me,
not us. We don't have any responsibility, not for your poverty.
(04:18):
The truth is, the bootstrap strategy has no systemic record
of success anywhere in the United States. Can you name
a state where every helping hand, every part of the
social safety net was just snatched away and the poverty
rate went down? Of course not so, where does this
made up story come from. Let's start there with its
(04:39):
real origins. This is how Representative Alexandria al Casio Cortez
of New York described the pull yourself up by your
bootstraps trope during a hearing on Capitol Hill.
Speaker 5 (04:51):
Miss Hutchinson, I also want to thank you about bringing
up the poverty draft and this idea of a bootstrap.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
You know, this idea, and.
Speaker 6 (04:57):
This metaphor of a bootstrap started off as a oak
because it's a physical impossibility to lift yourself up by
a bootstrap, by your shoelaces.
Speaker 7 (05:08):
It's physically impossible.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
The whole thing is a joke.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
The whole thing is a joke. So joining me now
is Next City's editorial director, Deanna Anderson. I had never
heard that before. How about you?
Speaker 4 (05:21):
No, I hadn't either, But it turns out that she's right,
pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Start it as a joke.
The earliest known reference is a newspaper article in eighteen
thirty four. It was published in The Workingman's Advocate.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Which I'd probably have subscribed to.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Yeah, I might have been the editorial director of that. Actually,
they published a snarky response to a bit of breaking
news that sounded too good to be true. A man
named Nimron Murphy claimed he invented a perpetual motion machine,
one that could keep working without the need for an
engine or fuel or people.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Okay, so the Workings Advocate, here's this claim, and responded,
can I read the response for you?
Speaker 8 (06:05):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Please give me a dramatic reading.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Okay, mister Murphy will now be enabled to hand himself
over the Cumberland River or a barnyard fence by the
straps of his boots.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
That I believe is eighteen thirty four level snark. But
when did the phrase stop being a joke?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
We don't know exactly when it stopped being a joke.
But maybe it doesn't matter, because what we know for
sure is that President Ronald Reagan weaponized the bootstraps narrative. Now,
I've never actually heard him use the word bootstraps, but
he's often credited with popularizing the idea by telling the
story in other forms over and over. Here he is
(06:43):
giving a speech in nineteen eighty one to the World
Affairs Council of Philadelphia.
Speaker 9 (06:48):
We Americans can speak from experience on this subject. When
the original settlers arrived here, they faced a wilderness where
poverty was there daily lot, danger and starvation their close companions.
But through all the danger's disappointments and setbacks, they kept
(07:09):
their faith. They never stopped believing that with a freedom
to try and try again, they could make tomorrow a
better day.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
You'd think it were part of American history textbooks. The
way he says it, try and try again. That's what
it takes to get out of poverty, just like the
original settlers did.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
But the original settlers didn't lift themselves up by their bootstraps,
you know, like that's not how it happened at all.
It was in sixteen oh seven when the first permanent
English settlement was established in Jamestown, Virginia, And it was
sixteen nineteen, twelve years later when the first recorded Africans
were kidnapped, brought to Jamestown and sold into slavery. Then
(07:52):
institutionalized slavery lasted here for two hundred and forty six years.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
So Reggan's story about Americans try and trying again until
they could lift themselves out of poverty is revisionist history, yes,
exactly that, But it's also part of a bigger picture
that he's trying to create. Reagan became the president who
popularized the scare story about welfare queens who were living
off government handouts. They're the villains that are driving up
(08:20):
our bills instead of working.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
You remember this, I've definitely heard of it.
Speaker 8 (08:25):
In Chicago, they found a woman who holds the record.
She used eighty names, thirty addresses, fifteen telephone numbers to
collect food stamps social Security, veterans benefits for four non
existent deceased veterans husbands, as well as welfare. Her tax
free cash income alone has been running one hundred and
(08:45):
fifty thousand dollars a year.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
And don't forget we found out later that women in
Chicago wasn't black, she was white.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
That is ridiculous. It's all a lie, yes, But is
that strong enough of a story to convince Americans to
gut all of welfare? Because that's what he was trying
to do.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Right, And he started things in motion, But it was
Newt Gingrich who really finished the.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Job, right, So tell us that story.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
So, as Speaker of the House, he championed the so
called Contract with America. Conservatives set to watch out for
people with poor character who didn't value family of work
because they were taking advantage of the broken big government system.
They promised a welfare reform that would reduce dependency on
government assistance and instead promote individual responsibility. Here he is
(09:36):
in a c SPAN video promoting the so called Personal
Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I believe absolutely he is going to sign this bill,
and I think that's good for America, and I think
it's good for the poor to begin to replace welfare
with the work ethic, and we ought to recognize that
this is bill. This bill is a substantial, positive step
to help all Americans have the right to pursue happiness.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Sell Gross. The important thing here is he says it's
good for poor people to replace welfare with a work ethic.
So then what Clinton scientist?
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Yeah he does.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
If you can't beat him, join him, I guess.
Speaker 8 (10:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
It was actually President Clinton, a Democrat, who spread the
notion of welfare to work.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
And that's why we call him the Great Communicator.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
It's hard to believe, but here is a nineteen ninety
two campaign ad.
Speaker 10 (10:27):
So long government has failed us, and one of its
worst figures has been welfare. I have a plan to
end welfare as we know it, to break the cycle
of welfare dependency. We'll provide education, job training, and childcare.
But then those who are able must go to work,
either in the private sector or in public service. I
know it can work. In my state, we move seventeen
(10:49):
thousand people from welfare roles to payrolls. It's time to
make welfare what it should be, a second chance, not
a way of life.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
End welfare as we know it move people from wealth
welfare roles to pay rolls.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Just stop helping people who don't deserve it.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
And that brings us back to Aisha Iandoro and Jackson, Mississippi.
When welfare reform passed, the government created block grant programs
so that states could spend welfare money however they chose,
and the system still exists today in Mississippi and all
across the country. It's cited by Aisha Iandoro as part
of why there's no funding for guaranteed income programs, and
(11:26):
it's all part of the effects of replacing welfare with
a work ethic, which is like replacing benefits with bootstraps.
More on that story after the break. Welcome back to
not my narrative. Magnolia. Mother's Trust and the moms it
(11:47):
serves do not get any money from those block grants
created to replace welfare as we know it. Here again
is Aisha and Iandoro.
Speaker 6 (11:55):
All of our money comes from private philanthropy. It is
still something that is not state funded or federally funded.
I am in Mississippi, So let's just be very clear
that the conservative state and so the idea that I
will have government funding in order just to give away
to poor black women would be would be ludicrous and hilarious,
probably to many of them.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
The bootstraps narrative is supposed to be about perseverance. I
don't know about you, Deanna, but that sounds more like
an excuse not to help people.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Yeah, what they're really trying to say is you can't
trust black women with the government's money.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
So as we break down the bootstraps narrative, let's turn
our focus now to one potential counter narrative.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
And that is it takes a village. We have two
examples of that in.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Action, right. But first, when you say that, you know
what I'm thinking of is Hillary Clinton's book. I don't
know if you remember the book.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
No, I didn't read that, so tell me more.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Oddly enough, right about the same time when Bill Clinton
was passing welfare reform by blaming black moms for taking
advantage of society's goodwill, his wife Hillary Clinton was making
headlines in nineteen ninety five for her new book called
It Takes a Village, and conservatives were furious about the title.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
Well, we want to hear from you this morning.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
What you think it takes to raise a child?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
If it takes a family or village. You can see
the numbers there on the screen.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Now, the whole point is depending on how you view
a village.
Speaker 6 (13:14):
A village is a place where people can support one another,
or village is someplace where you can dump folks and
have somebody else take care of them.
Speaker 9 (13:20):
I am here to tell you it does not take
a bilitage to raise a child.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
It takes a family to raise a child.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Dump your children in the village.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
We have to put out that the idea that it
takes a village to raise a child originated from an
old African proverb, and they seem to imply African values
aren't American values.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
If you ask me. They were upset because Hillary Clinton
had perfectly identified the counter to this bogus bootstrap's mentality.
Here she is in the very first sentence of her
Grammy winning audiobook.
Speaker 7 (13:55):
Children are not rugged individualists. They depend on the adults
they know and one thousands more who make decisions every
day that affect their well being.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Children are not rugged individualists.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
And really none of us are, which is why we
need things like guaranteed income.
Speaker 6 (14:14):
So when we talk about poverty, we really believe that, oh,
individuals should just work harder or work more. Is all
of these things that are individuals should do. But the
reality is, if we really interrogate more deeply what individuals
are doing, we'll actually see that individuals, the majority of
individuals that live in poverty are working. They are working more,
but they are working in jobs where they are only
(14:36):
especially here if you're in the South, where our federal
minimal wage of seven dollars and twenty five cents an hour,
where we don't have paid family leave, where we don't
have access to healthcare, where there is no child care infrastructure,
so individuals can only work so much and to the
place where policies have to meet us where we are,
and our policies are continuously failing to do that. So
(15:00):
that's where we see it being a policy failing. But
then also where we see individuals leaning into this narrative
of being a personal failing. It's just the stories that
we tell ourselves. And I feel that we tell ourselves
these stories about poverty because it allows us to absolve
ourselves of any guilt, and we make it feel as
if it's something that we don't have control over, and reality, yes,
(15:21):
we do. We all have control over the policies that
are in place.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Aisha n Iyandoro's program is the longest running example of
guaranteed income ever conducted in the United States. She has
plenty of statistics showing we have control over fixing poverty. Collectively,
moms in the Magnolia Mother's Trust Program have paid off
ten thousand dollars in predatory debt, and the percentage of
moms who said they could pay all their bills on
(15:46):
time went from twenty seven percent to eighty three percent.
The number of moms who had money saved for emergencies doubled.
And Diana, what if someone says, hey, that's just a
small group of moms in one city, Well.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
My response will be that we've tested something very similar
already on a massive scale.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Really and what was it?
Speaker 4 (16:07):
It was the Child Welfare tax Credit. It lasted just
one year, and the US Census Bureau says that in
twenty twenty three, the rate of poverty among children in
the United States had more than doubled after it ended,
going from five point two percent in twenty twenty one
to twelve point four percent in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I remember that I'm a parent, so we got to
check every month for a year during the pandemic.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
Yeah, and it made a difference in the lives of
five point two million kids.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I used to says the Bootsteps narrative. Let's us sleep
at night, But it's hard to imagine lawmakers sleeping at
night knowing they put five point two million kids back
in poverty. I guess everyone knows there are thousands of
our neighbors living on very little money. And we can
sleep at night if we're not responsible, if we think
it's those people's fault and that we're better. We're not
(16:57):
like them, right, We're not like them.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
We're better than them. We know better and couldn't possibly
end up in the same situation. That's another thing. Aisha says,
the way the government runs welfare turns recipients into subordinates.
She calls it paternalistic.
Speaker 6 (17:14):
Because they are paternalistic. They actually don't center the needs
of families. It is other individuals telling you what it
is that you need, not based on any lived experiences,
not based on understanding the dynamics of your families, not
understanding your situation. It really is steeped in ideas and
narratives that in a lot of places are not centered
(17:35):
in trust or dignity or honoring.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Who you are.
Speaker 6 (17:39):
They are centered in tropes and ideologies that are just false,
and so that's why they're paternalistic in nature. A lot
of our policies are very humanizing.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
What she's saying that boils down to a lack of trust.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
As a society, we're taught not to trust.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
People who need help, right and the lack of trust
is so big that Aisha says she doesn't actually know
anyone who qualifies for her state's welfare program. Instead, money
just goes unspent sitting there in state coffers.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
And people need that money. The Magnolia Mother's Trust Program
is proof that that money will make a difference in
a world where it takes a village to lift people
out of poverty.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
We have to trust each other absolutely. Thank you for
helping us walk through all this, Deianna.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Now, to further underscore our point, we're going to visit
an actual literal village. Dignity Village in Portland, Oregon is
a community for people experiencing homelessness. The village has its
own land, which is sanctioned by the city, but isn't
run by the city. Instead, it's run by those who
have arrived there with no place to live. Here is
Lisa Larson.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Well, when I first heard about Dignity Village, it was
back when the village was first starting, and I saw
them on the news making national headlines, and I told
my kids, why can't those homeless people get off their
butts and do acepthing. Well, a few years down the
road and a few very abusive relationships, I ended up
living out on the streets and we were reminded about
(19:17):
Dignity Village. And so the man I'm with now, the
love of my life, and I came out and checked
into Dignity got on the wait list. And that was
thirteen years ago, and it's definitely not what I thought.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Lisa Larson, like many women, lost her home when she
left an abusive relationship. She spent a year sleeping in
public spaces like parks or in abandoned houses, which got
her arrested twice for criminal trespassing. So when she heard
about Dignity Village, Lisa added her name to the waitlist. Today,
she lives there with her partner and serves as the
village's outreach coordinator. She was even elected to serve as
(19:56):
the village council's vice chairwoman. Along the way, she we
had to unlearn all the terrible things society taught her
about what it means to be a person without a home.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
I dare to be like all the people that you
see out on the streets that you know, oh they're
the homeless. You know, they're dirty, they're they're typical what
people think of the homeless, and dignity is more like
a huge family. We might be a little dysfunctional, but
we all survive out here, and most of us are
(20:27):
not the I hate using this word, but the typical
homeless that people think about when they think of the unhoused.
We're just people trying to survive.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yeah, you'd say there's some stigma about what it means
to be homeless. There's a picture in people's minds that
you think is not accurate.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Absolutely, and it's going to be become more and more
inaccurate as time goes on, because we're losing the middle class,
in my opinion, and so there's going to be the
rich people and then the poor people. And there's poor
people are just be a paycheck away or a major
accident or anything that's going to financially hurt them before
(21:07):
they are out on the streets.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, it's hard sometimes for people to imagine themselves in
that position. It sounds like you were one of those
people at some point, but then have figured out the
fine line.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
I was, But you know, becoming homeless probably one of
the best things that ever happened to me. I found compassion.
I found that being human to one another is far
better than being a stuck up little snob. So, I
don't know, I find that I feel I'm a better
person than I was before, even though I have, you know,
(21:40):
little money, and we live in a homeless encampment. But
it's great.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
It's great to be treated as an equal, and that
is maybe the most important thing they do at Dignity Village,
where it takes a village to solve homelessness. To change
her own life, Lisa Larson had to unlearn the old
narrative about people like her. She'd internalized what media and
society and everyone had told her. And the truth is,
all of us are surrounded by the bootstraps narrative. We
(22:10):
all live with it. We're soaking it up all the time.
And after the break, we're going to talk with someone
who is dedicating his life to examining how and why
these stories govern our lives and what we can do
about it.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
In the US, I think often times there's this idea
that education is the great equalizer, and in many ways
I believe as someone that's dedicated my career to thinking
a great deal about how narratives and specifically a boodstuff
nrative shape our education system, I would argue that unfortunately,
how our system is set up right now is actually
(22:51):
sustaining inequity instead of addressing it.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
This is Louis Ortega. You heard from him when we
started the episode, and in twenty ten he found it
Storytellers for Change, a collective for people who say they're
united by one purpose to build an empathetic and more
equitable world. He's seen directly how narratives play out in
our everyday lives.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
Our mission is to collaborate with change makers and organizations
to imagine, craft and share stories to build an equitable world.
And also that we historically think about what stories have
been privileged in terms of institutional power, so which stories
are disseminated through holidays, through books, through curriculum in schools.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
With his background and education and having worked in schools,
Louis says, even well meaning people in the education system
oftentimes fall into the trap of assigning responsibility for success
to an individual. The community isn't responsible for your port
card or your child's report card. You are right, Well,
what if there's more to it than that?
Speaker 5 (23:57):
The idea, right is that everyone who who words hard
enough kind achieve. The American dream permeates so much of
our political culture, and it's very much ingrained in how
we think about who should succeed and how we succeed
in an educational setting. But the thing is, like, when
(24:17):
you read between the lines the logic that's justifying this system,
it's also the idea that if you don't succeed, it
must be because you didn't try hard enough. In the
education sector, there's a whole series of beliefs around what
I call the achievement culture. There's a whole series of
(24:38):
tech talks and books and professional development that focuses on
this idea of resilience or great words that I don't
think people oftentimes but associate with, Oh, that's reinforcing the
book straight narrative. So without asking systemic questions, without recognizing
the historical under resourcing of school districts that primary serve
(25:00):
families that are poor or families of color. Then you
end up justifying this idea of personal responsibility.
Speaker 9 (25:09):
Right.
Speaker 5 (25:09):
It may even sound reasonable or fair or even more right,
this whole idea of personal responsibility. We need to teach
hard work ethic, right, we need to teach character building.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Right.
Speaker 5 (25:25):
These are the ways this language shows up. I think
in very new one's ways in everyday life that we
may not always necessarily be able to identify at the beginning.
And I think that's a great place to think about
how these narrative shows up.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
The other thing we're talking about is the counter narrative
to this idea that it is just personal responsibility. You
should pull yourself up by your bootstraps, work harder. The
other idea is, yeah, look at the classroom, the school,
the whole neighborhood and think about it as our collective responsibility.
That it takes a village, that old idea about you know,
(26:03):
the whole village coming together to help raise the children.
Are there ways that in our everyday lives and classrooms
that we're experiencing that we can help, or in school
board meetings that we can help emphasize that it is
all of our responsibility.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
Yeah, absolutely, And I think about it a lot through
my personal experience, and it's important to think also about
this through the lens of my own immigrant experience in
this country, which very much is also driven by the
notion of the American dream. So when I immigrated to this
country in two thousand and one and began my high
(26:40):
school journey here, I was able to perform academically quite well,
and it was oftentimes repeated to me and reformed to
me right that that made me worthy essentially of colorhips,
(27:00):
worthy of additional support, worthy of leadership opportunities. And what
I learned then very quickly is if I achieve academically,
that equals opportunity.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Right.
Speaker 5 (27:14):
Therefore, I definitely want to continue doing that. And it
was oftentimes attributed to me as an individual over time
because I'm also an immigrant and I'm a nondocumented immigrant.
What that does to me is that it puts me
into this category that politically socially has been called the dreamers, right,
(27:35):
this idea that these young, successful, ideal immigrants right are
the serving of additional support, and that by the fact
that creates a separation from me and my family. I
am the worthy immigrant. My mom, my grandmother, other friends,
(27:56):
other family members, they are not worthy, right, And it
just reproduces this hierarchy, this idea that okay, you are
the serving of the American dream. Were even going to
call you a dreamer, And that became language that really
impacted how I saw myself, how I thought about myself.
It wasn't until a few years later that I began
(28:17):
to just really critically think about this and through a
lot of community organizing and mentorship and activism, that it
was never my intention to erase. And this is you know,
I get a little emotional when I think about this,
because it was never my intention to erase the contributions
of my mom and my grandma, and my mentors and
(28:39):
my teachers and how I told my story. But as
a high school student, I was conditioned very quickly to
think about emphasizing myself and my desire and using this
language that I knew had great appeal to justify also
a pathway for me to succeed. And I think this
is what's so insidvideos about this too, right, that we
(29:02):
end up even ourselves who are impacted by these systems
of naratives by these structures that are deeply in equable,
deeply harmful, win those sustaining them, because there is a
benefit to being able to drive through that particular narrative
and to use it to justify your success. So I
think how we come through it. You're exactly right, like
(29:23):
it does take a village, and I think we need
to make it visible. You know, a long time ago,
now it's been over a decade that I made a
very strong commitment that whenever I tell my story about
what it's been like for me to move through the
education system in this country, what has been like for
me as an entrepreneur, to always uplift the whole ecosystem
(29:46):
of people that have been part and continue to be
part of my success. So moving from ecosystem to ecosystem
is so crucial to how we make it visible that
all of us are in relationships that are impacting our pathways.
And I think what also happens when you make these
relationships visible, structures, family structures, cultural structures become visible. But
(30:11):
also it is easier than to pinpoint to the systemic
or policies that are not emphasizing those relationships or not
allowed for those relationships to help all of those strive
and flourish in our own ways.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
You know, thank you for putting in such personal terms
about how insidious the narrative can be. That we do
need to move from an ego based system to an
ecosystem way of talking about our own successes. And you
talked about how it makes you feel now looking back
on your success in the way that you talk about it.
(30:49):
How do you think your other family members feel when
you say that they're being put on a dividing line
with you. Do they feel that too in a different way?
Speaker 5 (31:01):
Yes, And this is a conversation that I've had many times,
not just with my family, specifically my mom, but also
with other friends and other colleagues, mentors, fellow community organizers.
And in a way, you know, with my mom that's
(31:23):
been the more emotional, complicated discussion because in a way,
my mom was very willing to say, yes, you succeed.
I came here so that you could succeed. And I
think part of it, again, right, is that that conditioning, right,
that idea that like, well, that's for an immigrant parent, right,
(31:45):
like that that that is ultimately your goal to be
able to do something for your children and to provide
them with a better life. And I challenged that. I
challenged that so strongly. My mom's well being is interpoined
with mine. I need her to drive so I can drive.
This doesn't have to be a binary and I think
(32:07):
in many ways we do need to break out of
binary thinking when it comes to how we talk about
well being an achievement and success. That that is to me, right,
what in essence it needs to happen for us to
transform this narrative is to really think in a collectives way.
But that was difficult, right, It was difficult to hear
(32:29):
from my mom. You know, it's like that's okay, right,
Like if you do well, that's a good thing. And
in other ways too, right, like when I will tell
my story, you know, struggling through housing insecurity is struggling
through all kinds of and that this is the thing too, right.
I think it's so important to also understand about footstrap narratives.
(32:51):
They have an appeal. There is something about the story
of the single hero, the unlikely journey, the underdog that
makes it. And I remember so many times early on
when I was speaking very publicly about my immigration experience,
but driving academically and how often I would hear people
(33:12):
come to me afterwards to tell me that's so inspiring.
And inside, although a part of me felt like it
feels good to be told that you're inspiring, inside I
was hurting. I was not doing well. But I understood
in some way that I needed to sound inspiring right
to justify.
Speaker 8 (33:34):
My in this.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
Particular case, like a very specific policy agenda in terms
of advocating for imigrant rights, that I had to sound
inspiring to be able to justify receiving a scholarship. You
don't want to get a scholarship essay about how your
struggling with your mental health. You want to receive a
scholarship essay that tells you how, yes, you went through
some struggles, but you're driving and you have big dreams
(33:55):
and you're going to make it. Because even the entire
system that you are having to navigate, it's pointing you
time and again back towards Okay, how do you keep
emphasizing your resilience, your capacity to navigate these huge barriers
that have put in front of you. And I honestly
think that it's not only hurting individuals. I think it's
(34:16):
hurting all of us collectively. When we just focus on
those aspects of our lift experience at the expense of
our relationships and what are also very real and challenging
struggles that we need to grapple with.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
That is such a paradox because the entire idea behind
the Bootstraps narrative is that it's on the individual, it's
their personal responsibility that made them a success. And then
if you read from the script like you're saying, you
end up actually hiding so much about yourself that you're
not actually who you are. You can't be you have
(34:50):
to be this other idealized version that we've created.
Speaker 5 (34:53):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I think in some ways
right like this this is sort of these band, right,
we do have to dance between this idea of individual
effort and how we are collectively impacting each other. That
is one of the challenges that we need to take
on for those of those that think about narrative and help.
(35:14):
How do we develop creative interventions to shows different ways
to discuss questions issues around achievement and our life stories
and what that looks like and that there is a
space for individuality in a larger, more ecosystemic, more collective
is story because I think the some of the pushback
(35:39):
that I've heard sometimes is precisely around this question. Right,
It's like, well, you know, so, where does the individual
exist in a collective ast narrative. How do we still
talk about invidual traits and strengths And we absolutely can
do it, And emphasizing relationship and systems is important too,
so again, not one or the other. We need nertives
(36:02):
that I acknowledge the whole. That's why for me, I
go back to Joe's my example of how I've made
a commitment and how I tell my story to always
very specifically, highlighting and making visible is the language that
I use, making visible the many relationships that have supported
me in my journey. And I think that's one way
(36:24):
of countering that.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
The nerve that is such good advice for everybody, Well,
louis from storytellers for change. You're the founder there. I
feel like this is so much more real now that
we've talked.
Speaker 5 (36:37):
The one other thing that I also mentioned, just because
it's something that I do think it's true that even
with the narative, it takes a village that we have
to really emphasize that it's not just about raising a
single child, that it is about ensuring that all of
(36:57):
our children drive. I u's heard that it takes a
village to raise a child and it also takes a
village to leave one behind.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Thanks Louise, Thank you Lucas. That's where we'll end our
examination of the bootstraps narrative. Hopefully we've helped uncover where
this idea comes from, that it started as a joke,
and where this narrative is playing out today and deciding
who among us is deserving of our help when lawmakers
choose which programs to fund, will be better off if
(37:27):
they recognize that it takes a village to pull people
out of poverty, not just better bootstraps. And I feel
like Louis has given us a lot to think about
in our own lives. How do we contribute to this narrative,
even in how we choose to tell our own stories.
(38:03):
We hope you enjoyed this episode. Not My Narrative is
a Next City podcast. By the way, Next City is
a news organization with a nonprofit model. If you like
what we're doing here, please consider pitching in to support
our work. Visit nextcity dot org slash membership to make
a donation. Not My Narrative is produced with support from
PRX and is made possible in part by a grant
(38:24):
from the john S and James L. Knight Foundation. Our
audio producer is Silvana Alcala, Our show producer is Maggie Bowles,
our executive producer is Ryan Tillotson, and I'm Lucas Grinley
executive director for Next City Special Thanks to Jason Foster
of Destination Crenshaw, who helped us imagine this new show.
We'd love to hear any feedback from our listeners. Please
feel free to email us at info at nexcity dot
(38:46):
org and if you haven't already subscribed to Not My
Narrative on Apple, Spotify, Good Pods, or anywhere you listen
to your podcasts, No
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.