July 23, 2025 • 29 mins
This week, we’re revisiting an episode we released earlier this year, all about Lexington, Kentucky — a city where collaboration and creativity are transforming challenges into opportunities. In this episode, we highlighted how Lexington’s leaders are finding ways to foster nonpartisanship, boost civic engagement, and narrow the racial wealth gap.
We’re bringing this episode back now because it offers a window into the themes we explored in even greater depth during our Vanguard conference, held in Lexington just last month. Over the next couple of weeks on this podcast, we’ll be sharing special episodes that bring you along with Next City to the conference.
We’re bringing this episode back now because it offers a window into the themes we explored in even greater depth during our Vanguard conference, held in Lexington just last month. Over the next couple of weeks on this podcast, we’ll be sharing special episodes that bring you along with Next City to the conference.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Today, we are thrilled to announce Annabel Peterman as Next
City's first Equitable Cities Reporting Fellow for rural urban issues.
She's based in the newsroom of Civic lex and as
a native of Eastern Kentucky and an award winning public
radio journalists, Annabel will spend the next year reporting on
solutions to housing, health, civic participation, and more. Expect to
(00:23):
meet Annabel here on the Next City podcast later this year.
As we launch our new Equitable Cities Reporting Fellowship, it
felt only fitting to revisit an episode that first taught
us just how powerful the bond between urban and rural
can be. Back in October, at our Vanguard Conference in Lexington, Kentucky,
I sat down with former two term mayor and now
(00:44):
Kentucky's Secretary of Transportation Jim Gray to talk about urban
rural interconnection. We were also joined by Mandy Higgins at
the Lexington History Museum and Mark Lynn Johnson of Art
in Kentucky, and we on earth the belief that communities
thrive not by dividing their urban and rural corners, but
by standing side by side in solidarity. And speaking of
side by side, we have a special treat a bonus conversation,
(01:07):
and I'll tell you more about it.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
At the end of this episode.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Up next, here is what Lexington taught us about urban
rural interconnection.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Straw Hut Media.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
This is Lucas Grinley from Next City, a show about
change makers and their stories. Truth is, there are solutions
to the problems oppressing people in cities. If you're listening,
I hope it's because you want to spread good ideas
from one city to the next city. Today we're taking
you along with us as Next City brings our Vanguard
Conference to Lexington, Kentucky. Every year, Next City's editors pick
(01:54):
forty rising urban leaders to visit a host city, learn
about the solutions happening there.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
And meet the local change makers.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Why visit Lexington because, let's be frank, there are divisive
forces at work in our country. There are those seeking
to widen the gap between urban and rural, and between
city and countryside. Both sides get caricatured as separate or
even in opposition. But the truth is, no matter where
you live, our destinies are intertwined. So today's episode isn't
(02:22):
about focusing on the urban rural divide. Instead, we're visiting
Lexington to deepen our understanding of urban rural interconnection. We
will explore how communities are stronger when we stand in
solidarity and when we learn from each other's experiences. I
think you're going to love these highlights from the conversation
of the conference. We're going to begin with Mandy Higgins,
executive director at the Lexington History Museum, who sparked an
(02:44):
AHA moment for many of us when she explained the
difference between felt knowledge and factual knowledge and why it's
so important to engage both. Then we'll hear from Jim Gray,
the former two term mayor of Lexington and Kentucky's current
Secretary of Transport. He went from living in a small
town to leading the growth of one of its largest cities.
(03:04):
With a population of over three hundred and twenty thousand,
Lexington is a model for how urban and rural can coexist, collaborate,
and thrive. And in this episode he'll start to hear
why here is Mandy Higgins. She's seen the Lexington History
Museum through years of development, and we get to visit
with her in a brand new space.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
We open to the public last August.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
In this space, our goal is that this is a
museum for all of Lexington where you see a piece
of yourself when you come in. If you're a Lexingtonian,
if this is your first day in Lexington, or you're
a twelfth generation person, there's a piece of you or
something that connects to your family and your history here.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
We're not there yet.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
These are ambitious and aspirational goals, but we're working towards it.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
Lexington history, Kentucky history has.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
Most often been told from a very hierarchical, very white,
very male, very rich perspective.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
That's not happening in this museum.
Speaker 5 (04:08):
People have been in central Kentucky, have been in what
is now Fayette County since at least nine thousand BC,
and we know very very little about those folks.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
There's a huge myth.
Speaker 5 (04:21):
Kentucky history is wrapped up in a massive myth that
this was an empty hunting ground and that white folks
came across the Alleghenies with their enslaved individuals and made America.
But that is a deep Kentucky historical myth that we
are spent We have spent a lot of time trying
to unpack. But if you talk to a fourth grader
(04:43):
in Kentucky. They're probably going to tell you that this
was an empty hunting ground and it was just open.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
It was not.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
And even if there wasn't a person that the McConnell
brothers encountered in June of seventeen seventy five when they
planted their corn and said this was Lexington, the environ
they encountered had been shaped over centuries by indigenous Today
we would call them Kentuckians, descendants of the Adena, Chickasaw, Cherokee,
(05:12):
Shawnee all made what is Lexington, what is Fayette County
on the land.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
But uncovering and sharing these untold histories is and just
about setting the record straight. It's also about how we
make progress. We can't be in true solidarity with each
other without this deeper level of understanding. And as much
as the museum is working to bring more factual, inclusive
narratives to light, Mandy Higgins says, they must also grapple
with another kind of knowledge, the kind passed down through
(05:42):
families often without question.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
History is both felt knowledge and factual knowledge. So felt
knowledge is knowledge that you feel and someone.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
You trust told you.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
You don't necessarily need evidence, You just know because Grandpa
told me that Lexington has always been inclusive and awesome,
and factual knowledge is but let me tell you about
the East End, right, like what is happening in the
East End or what has happened at wherever? And when
factual knowledge and felt knowledge converge, we have really emotional reactions.
(06:22):
What we found is that you cannot always undo felt
knowledge with factual knowledge.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
You have to meet the felt Okay.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
So when we are educating young folks that Lexington or
Kentucky has never been an empty hunting ground, they're then
going home and talking to their parents and their grandparents
who are like, don't listen to those crazy plublic school teachers.
They don't know what they're talking about because their felt
knowledge is different. So we have a lot of work
(06:49):
to do on not only factual basis, but how to
translate that so folks will hear it and bring it
into their conversations.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Which means that as much as.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
The museum is beautiful and wonderful and I love it,
we're only the tipping point and the work is not
going to stop.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
We have to keep reinforcing it.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
The goal is ultimately greater understanding, and that leads to
greater solidarity and a world where we can get things
done and with long held beliefs rooted in felt knowledge.
Mandy says bringing people together requires more than just presenting
the facts. She relies on gentle inquiry and engagement.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
The first key is to acknowledge the like to say
I hear you, and to ask how do you know that?
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Not in an aggressive way, just how do you know that?
How did you learn that?
Speaker 5 (07:45):
Right, So you're giving them an opportunity to tell you
where that knowledge is coming from, and then you can
start to have that conversation of oh, that's interesting, my
fifth grade teacher told me this, and then you can
keep building.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
It is not easy. It is a very slow process.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
You also have to accept that you're probably not going
to change their mind. Your job is not to change
their mind. It is to provide the tools to have
the conversation going forward. So, to use a very history example,
I'm going to give you truth. I'm going to give
you the emotional response to it. Civil War is about slavery,
(08:30):
truth point Plane period in Kentucky. The Civil War is
often about a brother versus brother fight for the right
states rights and self determination, and it was not about.
Speaker 6 (08:47):
Slavery, what right.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
My initial response wants to be I can't and walk away.
We can't do that. We have to say, oh, well,
how do you know that? How did you learn that?
Speaker 5 (09:02):
Who taught you that? And when they say, oh, I
read it or that's just what we learned in school,
you can say that's really interesting. Do you know what
the state's rights argument was about?
Speaker 7 (09:15):
Well?
Speaker 5 (09:15):
No, it's just self determination, yes, self determination to own
people right, and so you can walk through that. Now again,
they're probably not going to in that moment give you
what you want. They're not going to agree with you.
They're not going to have this.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
Big, deep change.
Speaker 5 (09:33):
But you've planted the seed to push against that felt
knowledge to ask them to start thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
This point about felt knowledge versus factual knowledge feels like
it has applications in so many areas where we want
to make progress in cities. That kind of progress requires
solidarity across so many different people, and we can't achieve
that solidarity without understanding each other. Mandy Higgins in the
Lexington History Museum are trying to bring people together while
(10:11):
showing us how myths can become deeply ingrained and shape
our understanding of the very place we call home. After
the break, we'll continue exploring how these ideas play out
in the modern world and talk more about solidarity, this
time between urban and rural communities. Joining us will be
one of Lexington's most well known figures, Former Mayor Jim Gray.
(10:40):
Welcome back to Next City. Before the break, we talked
about the power of reframing history and challenging myths. Now
we turn our focus to Jim Gray, former mayor of
Lexington and Kentucky's current Secretary of Transportation. We spoke with
him during an event at the University of Kentucky's brand
new building, which is named after the former mayor and
his family construction company. It's the Grade Design building. Gray's
(11:03):
journey in public service has been shaped by both his
roots in Lexington and his upbringing in Glasgow, a small
Kentucky town.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
He says, despite what you might.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Hear, there's much more urban and rural interconnection than division.
So you were running your family's construction company, and somewhere
along the way, you'll clarify for us the timeline here.
You got a low fellowship at Harvard and that became
a pivotal moment. From what I've read and there were
(11:34):
two revelations that one was that you wanted to commit
to a life of public service and two that you
wanted to do it as an out gay man, which
was not common at the time. So could you tell
us what was going into your thinking back then?
Speaker 7 (11:49):
Yeah, I did get a chance. I was a fellow
in nineteen ninety six ninety seven. Mid Career Professionals is
a great program. You get to take courses all over
the university. One of the best classes I ever had
that's influenced me in my work in every respect was
the Leadership class at the Kennedy School and where it
(12:10):
really teaches you about problem solving and about problem solving
and complex social systems like a government, you know, or
like a city. So that time was really important for me.
Coming out came later, but it was of course very
(12:32):
liberating and it allowed me to run for office without
any without looking back, I will put it that way
at all, and then allowed me in setting the priorities
(12:53):
for the city, to especially illuminate Lexington as a well
coming in caring city in every respect.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Well, and what's amazing, at least on paper, is that
you had run and not one when you were not
out and then you came out ran and won.
Speaker 8 (13:11):
That's right, now, that's that yes, right, yeah, what.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Do they say?
Speaker 7 (13:19):
Politicians always say when they lose. I got bad advice,
and but that was that first race was twenty two
years ago, and I matured and working through that was
was really really valuable and did allow me then to
(13:40):
run for Council at large. Won that race, and then
four years later won the mayor's race.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
This is actually my second ever interview with Jim Gray
because and I didn't expect him to remember this at all,
but I was the editor in chief of The Advocate.
I interviewed you while you were on the campaign trail
running for Senate, and you probably have the best insight
on what is Lexington and Kentucky broadly as an inclusive
state in our city, So what is the vibe here?
Speaker 7 (14:10):
I loved that race that you talked about in twenty
sixteen because I knew I was swinging for the fences.
You know, it was the odds were way against us
to beat Ran Paul, but I knew that it would
be a really great challenge to go out into rural
parts of the state and being a Democrat. In fact,
(14:35):
a lot of people said being a Democrat is worse
than being gay.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
That was their comment.
Speaker 7 (14:39):
You know, I said, well, I'm not going to take
either of those comments as discouraging. We'll take accept who
we are and we'll run it. We'll go out and
make this race. Well, what was gratifying about it was
wherever I went, I was greeted with warmth and and
(15:00):
I was welcome, and it was almost always a positive, engaging,
issues based conversation with folks. Not every time, but most
of the time. Okay, So how would I characterize Kentucky
and Lexington today? Well, Andy Basheer just won reelection by
(15:25):
five percentage points, and he had in the administration had
taken some very i won't say provocative, but very progressive. Yeah,
to some people, provocative but very progressive positions throughout the
four years that that he was governor. But I always
(15:47):
say he is works harder than the devil does on Sunday.
And I mean he really works hard, and people recognize
that he's working hard and that he is doing it
because he cares. His heart is in the right place.
So he won, all right, So when someone characterized Kentucky
(16:11):
wants to me they say, well, Lexington and Louisville like
blueberries in a sea of red tomatoes. And I would
challenge that today to the extent that an election like
we're in now is really really polarizing, we know that,
(16:33):
but at the end of the day, you know, we
do get through these things. And what I've noticed about
government is governments at every level, national, state, city, is
that they are very sustainable and one way or another,
we get through it.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Now.
Speaker 7 (16:52):
That sounds sort of corny and cliche, but I believe
just that well.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And there's a lot of talk now about the need
to sustain our democracy and focusing on voting rights and
voting access, which are important huge, but also democracy is
connected to whether or not people feel truly represented by
their leaders and whether or not there's real community engagement
that leads to their decisions. So I want to talk
(17:19):
about the theme of the conference, which is urban and
rural interconnection. And we're talking about partisan divide and there's
other kinds of divides, and there's people trying to divide
us along those lines. You come from a small town
ten thousand people in Glasgow and southern Kentucky, and I wonder,
what if you can help us understand what people think
from Glasgow. On good days, what do they think of
(17:41):
places like Louisville and Lexington? And on bad days, what
do they think of places like Louisville and Lexington.
Speaker 7 (17:46):
Oh well, my mother would travel to Louisville and Lexington
from Glasgow a lot back in the day. She would
go to a conference in Louisville or a conference in Lexington.
She'd come back to Glasgow and she just shake her
head and she said, you know, those people in Louisville
and Lexon, they don't even know there's a rest of Kentucky.
(18:09):
And uh So I love telling that story because it
means that if you, if you do come from a
small community, a small town, I think that's where that's
where still we see community, and we see neighbors helping neighbors,
and and we see it. I mean, that's in Lexton.
That's a couple who moved here from Los Angeles recently
(18:32):
who said they moved into Lexington. They're living in the
Chevy Chase area, and they said, we've met we've met
more of our neighbors in six months and gotten to
know them than we did in twenty five years in
Los Angeles. Sure, Okay, So there's something to be said
for community. I used to I would say about Lexington
(18:55):
when I was going door to door campaigning that I
described it as the truth that I would always go
up to try an icebreaker. I'd say, so, what do
you think of Lexington? And this one woman knocked on
the door. I asked her, what do you think of Lexton?
She said, Oh, it's like a shining city on the hill.
And I was walking down to the street. I asked
(19:17):
the same question as my icebreaker, So how do you
describe Lexington? Oh, it's just an extra large Mayberry. So
that's also dating me. But anybody who watched Andy grifftt
that's the context, all right, So small town, large city,
the relationships are the same, you know. I mean, when
(19:40):
we think about it, we have friends, we have neighbors.
Now is it more polarizing today? Yes? Is the political
context today more dynamic or challenging? I don't know. Dynamic
is the right word challenging In some of our rural communities.
For those who have migrated to larger urban areas, I'm
(20:02):
one of those, so I can acknowledge for a lot
of reasons I wanted to try a larger city try
it on, you know, and and it worked for me.
But I still my brother often says, my pillows in Lexington,
my heart's in Glasgows. There's still a connection there. Now,
(20:24):
how does it informed how does it inform me? Inform
me every day in terms of the role of being
mayor and the role I've got today because I connect
to these to so many of these communities, you know,
and if you if you have grown up in a
small community, then you know that these roads are really
important to the sidewalks. So learn from those small towns. I mean,
(20:48):
a big part of my a big part of me
and my DNA is there.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Finding common ground is not always easy. Jim Gray's advice
learn from these small town learn from each other. After
the break will shift our focus to another unifying force,
the power of art.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Welcome back to next City.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
We've talked about how history and civic action play a
role in connecting urban and rural communities. Now let's turn
our attention to art. For Jim Gray, art is more
than a personal passion. It's a bridge with the potential
to connect Lexington to itself.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Into the world.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
You have an extensive art collection, oh you do, and
you are a benefactor for UK Museum of Arts. You
have loaned them pieces, donated pieces. You support this Fellows
to go traveling to New York City to sort of
broaden the horizons on the arts, and the way they
described they honored you in the way they described it.
The reason for doing it is that you see the
(21:53):
arts as a bridge connecting Lexington to itself and to
the wider world. And I wonder if that is correct.
Is that how you see the role of the arts
and helping to bridge the device?
Speaker 7 (22:05):
Well, you know, I've always felt that artists help us
discover where we are going. I had a wonderful friend
who was an artist here in town. His name was
Louis Dickett. He passed away a few years ago, and
I would talk to Louis about everything. He was a
he was a polymath, he was autodidactic, he was just brilliant.
(22:25):
Never had the first day of college, but he was
a lifelong learner. So he studied art for example. So
he would identify an artist and he would tell me, Jimmy,
you need to buy this, or you need to acquire
blah blah blah, and I wouldn't do it. And then
later he would say when that artist had arguably succeeded,
(22:46):
he would say, of course I told you so, right,
and he would he would send me a note, a
card with the with the image. Now, I like being
around artists. I think they teach us and tell us
where we are going, you know, and as a society
as people perhaps, But that's a one to think about.
(23:09):
That's an AHA for me, right, Any artists in the room,
many ah.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
An important part of the city.
Speaker 7 (23:18):
Artists, yes, oh, absolutely, yeah, vital part. I mean, really
really illustrate our heart. And when we say art, you know,
it gets the connotation of pretty pictures, you know, or
art on a wall, or instead of the spirit, you know,
the creative spirit that's represented. And I think, you know,
(23:39):
for all of you all in here who held your
hand up, just a great tribute to you, because you
are illustrating that creative spirit and you're helping others in
that process to discover often themselves.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Back at the History Museum, we found ourselves talking about
art as well. Mark Johnson as president of Art Inc. Kentucky,
a nonprofit that provides emerging and established Kentucky artists with
the tools, resources, and education necessary to build their businesses
and broaden their exposure and sell their work. He's also
a proud native of Lexington's historic East End.
Speaker 6 (24:22):
Being from East End, I can't remember the first time
I saw hard One. Now as kids come from there's
a couple of elementary schools there. There's a middle school
used to be Lexington Junior where I went to Junior High.
And now they are coming through East End, they're coming
down to tours, They're meeting Frank Xwalker, They're seeing artworks
(24:43):
by Levon Williams, which is one of our historic basketball
players at UK and he does would work now into
for these kids, especially from my perspective, young African American
young men, to see these icons that they can say,
oh that he looked like me, and I can do
something like that. That's very important and I didn't have
(25:05):
that growing up.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
I think.
Speaker 6 (25:08):
The other thing are the personal stories that come out
as a result of just very specifically art. We have
a gentleman by the name of Ken Verne. It's another
resident of our artist Village, and he'll tell you this himself.
He has some significant challenges, lived in cars. He just
(25:30):
recently pre painted the original painting that became the Governor's
Derby Coaster for the one hundred and fiftieth Ring of
a Derby to see that transformation to where he has
come from to the recognition that he is getting now.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Ken is a phenomenal painter. I had nothing to do with.
Speaker 6 (25:46):
This talent, but we were able to put him in
and help him get.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Opportunities that he could.
Speaker 6 (25:53):
Expand on his talent and get his name out there.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
And so just to have a little bit to.
Speaker 6 (25:57):
Do with that, that's some feel pretty pretty proud of.
And he's only our most recent one.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
I mean, we've had a number of individuals.
Speaker 6 (26:04):
That through art, they have bettered their lives, their better
their family's lives, they have better their communities. So I
think that's you know that that's something that built pretty proudate.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Not only is art helping local residents better their lives
and their families' lives and their communities, but it's also
a useful way to have these conversations about felt knowledge
and factual knowledge.
Speaker 6 (26:33):
That's kind of what we're doing in East End, where
we are engaging artists that have a different perspective than
maybe what the more readily accepted or the more readily
understood or the more readily expressed history is, and as
(26:56):
people that are new to that area and new to
the community come into that area and they experience the
art and they experience the artist, they are now introduced
to another aspect of that history. But that conversation comes
about as a result of art, So it's not necessarily
from a you know, you walk into a room and
(27:16):
you know you're getting ready to get into it too
tough conversation and it's going to be like this, But
it comes from more of a perspective of I appreciate
this art. I like this art, right, and then the
conversation starts from there. So it's almost a hate to
use the term because it's so simple. It's an easier
way to prompt that conversation because there's a common point
(27:39):
where two people that may have nothing in common whatsoever,
and may be on two polar different sides of history,
but they have that common aspect, they have that common
meeting point of they both appreciate that piece of art,
and now they're both and at least one of them
are able to express, here's what this art means to me,
(28:00):
And it's an easy way to prompt that conversation with
that person. That maybe was not on the same page.
I think art is a wonderful way to broach that conversation.
It's not always easy, and it's never going to be easy,
but I think art is one way that those conversations
can start.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Whatever the conversation.
Speaker 6 (28:19):
Goes through from there, I think it's always It's always
a good thing, because now you have conversation.
Speaker 8 (28:23):
Don't thanks for listening this week.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
As I promised, we have a special treat, a bonus conversation.
If you want an expanded view of the work Next
City is doing in Kentucky, check out today's brand new
episode of the University of Minnesota's Side by Side podcast.
You can find it anywhere you get your podcasts, and
we'll link to it in the show notes. In the episode,
you'll hear from me and from Richard Young, the founder
(29:00):
of Civic Lex, as we explore how rural and urban
communities are recognizing their common ground, whether you are in
the heart of a metropolis or among the rolling hills beyond.
We hope the conversation sparks ideas for how your city
and its neighbors are stronger together. Our audio producer is
Silvan Alkala. Our show producer is Maggie Bowles, our executive
producer is Ryan Tillotson, and I'm Lucas Grinley, executive director
(29:23):
for Next City. We'd love to hear any feedback from
our listeners. Please feel free to email us at info
atnexcity dot org and if you haven't already, subscribed to
the show on Apple, Spotify, good Pods, or anywhere you
listen to your podcasts.
Today, we are thrilled to announce Annabel Peterman as Next
City's first Equitable Cities Reporting Fellow for rural urban issues.
She's based in the newsroom of Civic lex and as
a native of Eastern Kentucky and an award winning public
radio journalists, Annabel will spend the next year reporting on
solutions to housing, health, civic participation, and more. Expect to
(00:23):
meet Annabel here on the Next City podcast later this year.
As we launch our new Equitable Cities Reporting Fellowship, it
felt only fitting to revisit an episode that first taught
us just how powerful the bond between urban and rural
can be. Back in October, at our Vanguard Conference in Lexington, Kentucky,
I sat down with former two term mayor and now
(00:44):
Kentucky's Secretary of Transportation Jim Gray to talk about urban
rural interconnection. We were also joined by Mandy Higgins at
the Lexington History Museum and Mark Lynn Johnson of Art
in Kentucky, and we on earth the belief that communities
thrive not by dividing their urban and rural corners, but
by standing side by side in solidarity. And speaking of
side by side, we have a special treat a bonus conversation,
(01:07):
and I'll tell you more about it.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
At the end of this episode.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Up next, here is what Lexington taught us about urban
rural interconnection.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Straw Hut Media.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
This is Lucas Grinley from Next City, a show about
change makers and their stories. Truth is, there are solutions
to the problems oppressing people in cities. If you're listening,
I hope it's because you want to spread good ideas
from one city to the next city. Today we're taking
you along with us as Next City brings our Vanguard
Conference to Lexington, Kentucky. Every year, Next City's editors pick
(01:54):
forty rising urban leaders to visit a host city, learn
about the solutions happening there.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
And meet the local change makers.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Why visit Lexington because, let's be frank, there are divisive
forces at work in our country. There are those seeking
to widen the gap between urban and rural, and between
city and countryside. Both sides get caricatured as separate or
even in opposition. But the truth is, no matter where
you live, our destinies are intertwined. So today's episode isn't
(02:22):
about focusing on the urban rural divide. Instead, we're visiting
Lexington to deepen our understanding of urban rural interconnection. We
will explore how communities are stronger when we stand in
solidarity and when we learn from each other's experiences. I
think you're going to love these highlights from the conversation
of the conference. We're going to begin with Mandy Higgins,
executive director at the Lexington History Museum, who sparked an
(02:44):
AHA moment for many of us when she explained the
difference between felt knowledge and factual knowledge and why it's
so important to engage both. Then we'll hear from Jim Gray,
the former two term mayor of Lexington and Kentucky's current
Secretary of Transport. He went from living in a small
town to leading the growth of one of its largest cities.
(03:04):
With a population of over three hundred and twenty thousand,
Lexington is a model for how urban and rural can coexist, collaborate,
and thrive. And in this episode he'll start to hear
why here is Mandy Higgins. She's seen the Lexington History
Museum through years of development, and we get to visit
with her in a brand new space.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
We open to the public last August.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
In this space, our goal is that this is a
museum for all of Lexington where you see a piece
of yourself when you come in. If you're a Lexingtonian,
if this is your first day in Lexington, or you're
a twelfth generation person, there's a piece of you or
something that connects to your family and your history here.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
We're not there yet.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
These are ambitious and aspirational goals, but we're working towards it.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
Lexington history, Kentucky history has.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
Most often been told from a very hierarchical, very white,
very male, very rich perspective.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
That's not happening in this museum.
Speaker 5 (04:08):
People have been in central Kentucky, have been in what
is now Fayette County since at least nine thousand BC,
and we know very very little about those folks.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
There's a huge myth.
Speaker 5 (04:21):
Kentucky history is wrapped up in a massive myth that
this was an empty hunting ground and that white folks
came across the Alleghenies with their enslaved individuals and made America.
But that is a deep Kentucky historical myth that we
are spent We have spent a lot of time trying
to unpack. But if you talk to a fourth grader
(04:43):
in Kentucky. They're probably going to tell you that this
was an empty hunting ground and it was just open.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
It was not.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
And even if there wasn't a person that the McConnell
brothers encountered in June of seventeen seventy five when they
planted their corn and said this was Lexington, the environ
they encountered had been shaped over centuries by indigenous Today
we would call them Kentuckians, descendants of the Adena, Chickasaw, Cherokee,
(05:12):
Shawnee all made what is Lexington, what is Fayette County
on the land.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
But uncovering and sharing these untold histories is and just
about setting the record straight. It's also about how we
make progress. We can't be in true solidarity with each
other without this deeper level of understanding. And as much
as the museum is working to bring more factual, inclusive
narratives to light, Mandy Higgins says, they must also grapple
with another kind of knowledge, the kind passed down through
(05:42):
families often without question.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
History is both felt knowledge and factual knowledge. So felt
knowledge is knowledge that you feel and someone.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
You trust told you.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
You don't necessarily need evidence, You just know because Grandpa
told me that Lexington has always been inclusive and awesome,
and factual knowledge is but let me tell you about
the East End, right, like what is happening in the
East End or what has happened at wherever? And when
factual knowledge and felt knowledge converge, we have really emotional reactions.
(06:22):
What we found is that you cannot always undo felt
knowledge with factual knowledge.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
You have to meet the felt Okay.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
So when we are educating young folks that Lexington or
Kentucky has never been an empty hunting ground, they're then
going home and talking to their parents and their grandparents
who are like, don't listen to those crazy plublic school teachers.
They don't know what they're talking about because their felt
knowledge is different. So we have a lot of work
(06:49):
to do on not only factual basis, but how to
translate that so folks will hear it and bring it
into their conversations.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Which means that as much as.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
The museum is beautiful and wonderful and I love it,
we're only the tipping point and the work is not
going to stop.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
We have to keep reinforcing it.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
The goal is ultimately greater understanding, and that leads to
greater solidarity and a world where we can get things
done and with long held beliefs rooted in felt knowledge.
Mandy says bringing people together requires more than just presenting
the facts. She relies on gentle inquiry and engagement.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
The first key is to acknowledge the like to say
I hear you, and to ask how do you know that?
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Not in an aggressive way, just how do you know that?
How did you learn that?
Speaker 5 (07:45):
Right, So you're giving them an opportunity to tell you
where that knowledge is coming from, and then you can
start to have that conversation of oh, that's interesting, my
fifth grade teacher told me this, and then you can
keep building.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
It is not easy. It is a very slow process.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
You also have to accept that you're probably not going
to change their mind. Your job is not to change
their mind. It is to provide the tools to have
the conversation going forward. So, to use a very history example,
I'm going to give you truth. I'm going to give
you the emotional response to it. Civil War is about slavery,
(08:30):
truth point Plane period in Kentucky. The Civil War is
often about a brother versus brother fight for the right
states rights and self determination, and it was not about.
Speaker 6 (08:47):
Slavery, what right.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
My initial response wants to be I can't and walk away.
We can't do that. We have to say, oh, well,
how do you know that? How did you learn that?
Speaker 5 (09:02):
Who taught you that? And when they say, oh, I
read it or that's just what we learned in school,
you can say that's really interesting. Do you know what
the state's rights argument was about?
Speaker 7 (09:15):
Well?
Speaker 5 (09:15):
No, it's just self determination, yes, self determination to own
people right, and so you can walk through that. Now again,
they're probably not going to in that moment give you
what you want. They're not going to agree with you.
They're not going to have this.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
Big, deep change.
Speaker 5 (09:33):
But you've planted the seed to push against that felt
knowledge to ask them to start thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
This point about felt knowledge versus factual knowledge feels like
it has applications in so many areas where we want
to make progress in cities. That kind of progress requires
solidarity across so many different people, and we can't achieve
that solidarity without understanding each other. Mandy Higgins in the
Lexington History Museum are trying to bring people together while
(10:11):
showing us how myths can become deeply ingrained and shape
our understanding of the very place we call home. After
the break, we'll continue exploring how these ideas play out
in the modern world and talk more about solidarity, this
time between urban and rural communities. Joining us will be
one of Lexington's most well known figures, Former Mayor Jim Gray.
(10:40):
Welcome back to Next City. Before the break, we talked
about the power of reframing history and challenging myths. Now
we turn our focus to Jim Gray, former mayor of
Lexington and Kentucky's current Secretary of Transportation. We spoke with
him during an event at the University of Kentucky's brand
new building, which is named after the former mayor and
his family construction company. It's the Grade Design building. Gray's
(11:03):
journey in public service has been shaped by both his
roots in Lexington and his upbringing in Glasgow, a small
Kentucky town.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
He says, despite what you might.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Hear, there's much more urban and rural interconnection than division.
So you were running your family's construction company, and somewhere
along the way, you'll clarify for us the timeline here.
You got a low fellowship at Harvard and that became
a pivotal moment. From what I've read and there were
(11:34):
two revelations that one was that you wanted to commit
to a life of public service and two that you
wanted to do it as an out gay man, which
was not common at the time. So could you tell
us what was going into your thinking back then?
Speaker 7 (11:49):
Yeah, I did get a chance. I was a fellow
in nineteen ninety six ninety seven. Mid Career Professionals is
a great program. You get to take courses all over
the university. One of the best classes I ever had
that's influenced me in my work in every respect was
the Leadership class at the Kennedy School and where it
(12:10):
really teaches you about problem solving and about problem solving
and complex social systems like a government, you know, or
like a city. So that time was really important for me.
Coming out came later, but it was of course very
(12:32):
liberating and it allowed me to run for office without
any without looking back, I will put it that way
at all, and then allowed me in setting the priorities
(12:53):
for the city, to especially illuminate Lexington as a well
coming in caring city in every respect.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Well, and what's amazing, at least on paper, is that
you had run and not one when you were not
out and then you came out ran and won.
Speaker 8 (13:11):
That's right, now, that's that yes, right, yeah, what.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Do they say?
Speaker 7 (13:19):
Politicians always say when they lose. I got bad advice,
and but that was that first race was twenty two
years ago, and I matured and working through that was
was really really valuable and did allow me then to
(13:40):
run for Council at large. Won that race, and then
four years later won the mayor's race.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
This is actually my second ever interview with Jim Gray
because and I didn't expect him to remember this at all,
but I was the editor in chief of The Advocate.
I interviewed you while you were on the campaign trail
running for Senate, and you probably have the best insight
on what is Lexington and Kentucky broadly as an inclusive
state in our city, So what is the vibe here?
Speaker 7 (14:10):
I loved that race that you talked about in twenty
sixteen because I knew I was swinging for the fences.
You know, it was the odds were way against us
to beat Ran Paul, but I knew that it would
be a really great challenge to go out into rural
parts of the state and being a Democrat. In fact,
(14:35):
a lot of people said being a Democrat is worse
than being gay.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
That was their comment.
Speaker 7 (14:39):
You know, I said, well, I'm not going to take
either of those comments as discouraging. We'll take accept who
we are and we'll run it. We'll go out and
make this race. Well, what was gratifying about it was
wherever I went, I was greeted with warmth and and
(15:00):
I was welcome, and it was almost always a positive, engaging,
issues based conversation with folks. Not every time, but most
of the time. Okay, So how would I characterize Kentucky
and Lexington today? Well, Andy Basheer just won reelection by
(15:25):
five percentage points, and he had in the administration had
taken some very i won't say provocative, but very progressive. Yeah,
to some people, provocative but very progressive positions throughout the
four years that that he was governor. But I always
(15:47):
say he is works harder than the devil does on Sunday.
And I mean he really works hard, and people recognize
that he's working hard and that he is doing it
because he cares. His heart is in the right place.
So he won, all right, So when someone characterized Kentucky
(16:11):
wants to me they say, well, Lexington and Louisville like
blueberries in a sea of red tomatoes. And I would
challenge that today to the extent that an election like
we're in now is really really polarizing, we know that,
(16:33):
but at the end of the day, you know, we
do get through these things. And what I've noticed about
government is governments at every level, national, state, city, is
that they are very sustainable and one way or another,
we get through it.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Now.
Speaker 7 (16:52):
That sounds sort of corny and cliche, but I believe
just that well.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And there's a lot of talk now about the need
to sustain our democracy and focusing on voting rights and
voting access, which are important huge, but also democracy is
connected to whether or not people feel truly represented by
their leaders and whether or not there's real community engagement
that leads to their decisions. So I want to talk
(17:19):
about the theme of the conference, which is urban and
rural interconnection. And we're talking about partisan divide and there's
other kinds of divides, and there's people trying to divide
us along those lines. You come from a small town
ten thousand people in Glasgow and southern Kentucky, and I wonder,
what if you can help us understand what people think
from Glasgow. On good days, what do they think of
(17:41):
places like Louisville and Lexington? And on bad days, what
do they think of places like Louisville and Lexington.
Speaker 7 (17:46):
Oh well, my mother would travel to Louisville and Lexington
from Glasgow a lot back in the day. She would
go to a conference in Louisville or a conference in Lexington.
She'd come back to Glasgow and she just shake her
head and she said, you know, those people in Louisville
and Lexon, they don't even know there's a rest of Kentucky.
(18:09):
And uh So I love telling that story because it
means that if you, if you do come from a
small community, a small town, I think that's where that's
where still we see community, and we see neighbors helping neighbors,
and and we see it. I mean, that's in Lexton.
That's a couple who moved here from Los Angeles recently
(18:32):
who said they moved into Lexington. They're living in the
Chevy Chase area, and they said, we've met we've met
more of our neighbors in six months and gotten to
know them than we did in twenty five years in
Los Angeles. Sure, Okay, So there's something to be said
for community. I used to I would say about Lexington
(18:55):
when I was going door to door campaigning that I
described it as the truth that I would always go
up to try an icebreaker. I'd say, so, what do
you think of Lexington? And this one woman knocked on
the door. I asked her, what do you think of Lexton?
She said, Oh, it's like a shining city on the hill.
And I was walking down to the street. I asked
(19:17):
the same question as my icebreaker, So how do you
describe Lexington? Oh, it's just an extra large Mayberry. So
that's also dating me. But anybody who watched Andy grifftt
that's the context, all right, So small town, large city,
the relationships are the same, you know. I mean, when
(19:40):
we think about it, we have friends, we have neighbors.
Now is it more polarizing today? Yes? Is the political
context today more dynamic or challenging? I don't know. Dynamic
is the right word challenging In some of our rural communities.
For those who have migrated to larger urban areas, I'm
(20:02):
one of those, so I can acknowledge for a lot
of reasons I wanted to try a larger city try
it on, you know, and and it worked for me.
But I still my brother often says, my pillows in Lexington,
my heart's in Glasgows. There's still a connection there. Now,
(20:24):
how does it informed how does it inform me? Inform
me every day in terms of the role of being
mayor and the role I've got today because I connect
to these to so many of these communities, you know,
and if you if you have grown up in a
small community, then you know that these roads are really
important to the sidewalks. So learn from those small towns. I mean,
(20:48):
a big part of my a big part of me
and my DNA is there.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Finding common ground is not always easy. Jim Gray's advice
learn from these small town learn from each other. After
the break will shift our focus to another unifying force,
the power of art.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Welcome back to next City.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
We've talked about how history and civic action play a
role in connecting urban and rural communities. Now let's turn
our attention to art. For Jim Gray, art is more
than a personal passion. It's a bridge with the potential
to connect Lexington to itself.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Into the world.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
You have an extensive art collection, oh you do, and
you are a benefactor for UK Museum of Arts. You
have loaned them pieces, donated pieces. You support this Fellows
to go traveling to New York City to sort of
broaden the horizons on the arts, and the way they
described they honored you in the way they described it.
The reason for doing it is that you see the
(21:53):
arts as a bridge connecting Lexington to itself and to
the wider world. And I wonder if that is correct.
Is that how you see the role of the arts
and helping to bridge the device?
Speaker 7 (22:05):
Well, you know, I've always felt that artists help us
discover where we are going. I had a wonderful friend
who was an artist here in town. His name was
Louis Dickett. He passed away a few years ago, and
I would talk to Louis about everything. He was a
he was a polymath, he was autodidactic, he was just brilliant.
(22:25):
Never had the first day of college, but he was
a lifelong learner. So he studied art for example. So
he would identify an artist and he would tell me, Jimmy,
you need to buy this, or you need to acquire
blah blah blah, and I wouldn't do it. And then
later he would say when that artist had arguably succeeded,
(22:46):
he would say, of course I told you so, right,
and he would he would send me a note, a
card with the with the image. Now, I like being
around artists. I think they teach us and tell us
where we are going, you know, and as a society
as people perhaps, But that's a one to think about.
(23:09):
That's an AHA for me, right, Any artists in the room,
many ah.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
An important part of the city.
Speaker 7 (23:18):
Artists, yes, oh, absolutely, yeah, vital part. I mean, really
really illustrate our heart. And when we say art, you know,
it gets the connotation of pretty pictures, you know, or
art on a wall, or instead of the spirit, you know,
the creative spirit that's represented. And I think, you know,
(23:39):
for all of you all in here who held your
hand up, just a great tribute to you, because you
are illustrating that creative spirit and you're helping others in
that process to discover often themselves.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Back at the History Museum, we found ourselves talking about
art as well. Mark Johnson as president of Art Inc. Kentucky,
a nonprofit that provides emerging and established Kentucky artists with
the tools, resources, and education necessary to build their businesses
and broaden their exposure and sell their work. He's also
a proud native of Lexington's historic East End.
Speaker 6 (24:22):
Being from East End, I can't remember the first time
I saw hard One. Now as kids come from there's
a couple of elementary schools there. There's a middle school
used to be Lexington Junior where I went to Junior High.
And now they are coming through East End, they're coming
down to tours, They're meeting Frank Xwalker, They're seeing artworks
(24:43):
by Levon Williams, which is one of our historic basketball
players at UK and he does would work now into
for these kids, especially from my perspective, young African American
young men, to see these icons that they can say,
oh that he looked like me, and I can do
something like that. That's very important and I didn't have
(25:05):
that growing up.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
I think.
Speaker 6 (25:08):
The other thing are the personal stories that come out
as a result of just very specifically art. We have
a gentleman by the name of Ken Verne. It's another
resident of our artist Village, and he'll tell you this himself.
He has some significant challenges, lived in cars. He just
(25:30):
recently pre painted the original painting that became the Governor's
Derby Coaster for the one hundred and fiftieth Ring of
a Derby to see that transformation to where he has
come from to the recognition that he is getting now.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Ken is a phenomenal painter. I had nothing to do with.
Speaker 6 (25:46):
This talent, but we were able to put him in
and help him get.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Opportunities that he could.
Speaker 6 (25:53):
Expand on his talent and get his name out there.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
And so just to have a little bit to.
Speaker 6 (25:57):
Do with that, that's some feel pretty pretty proud of.
And he's only our most recent one.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
I mean, we've had a number of individuals.
Speaker 6 (26:04):
That through art, they have bettered their lives, their better
their family's lives, they have better their communities. So I
think that's you know that that's something that built pretty proudate.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Not only is art helping local residents better their lives
and their families' lives and their communities, but it's also
a useful way to have these conversations about felt knowledge
and factual knowledge.
Speaker 6 (26:33):
That's kind of what we're doing in East End, where
we are engaging artists that have a different perspective than
maybe what the more readily accepted or the more readily
understood or the more readily expressed history is, and as
(26:56):
people that are new to that area and new to
the community come into that area and they experience the
art and they experience the artist, they are now introduced
to another aspect of that history. But that conversation comes
about as a result of art, So it's not necessarily
from a you know, you walk into a room and
(27:16):
you know you're getting ready to get into it too
tough conversation and it's going to be like this, But
it comes from more of a perspective of I appreciate
this art. I like this art, right, and then the
conversation starts from there. So it's almost a hate to
use the term because it's so simple. It's an easier
way to prompt that conversation because there's a common point
(27:39):
where two people that may have nothing in common whatsoever,
and may be on two polar different sides of history,
but they have that common aspect, they have that common
meeting point of they both appreciate that piece of art,
and now they're both and at least one of them
are able to express, here's what this art means to me,
(28:00):
And it's an easy way to prompt that conversation with
that person. That maybe was not on the same page.
I think art is a wonderful way to broach that conversation.
It's not always easy, and it's never going to be easy,
but I think art is one way that those conversations
can start.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Whatever the conversation.
Speaker 6 (28:19):
Goes through from there, I think it's always It's always
a good thing, because now you have conversation.
Speaker 8 (28:23):
Don't thanks for listening this week.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
As I promised, we have a special treat, a bonus conversation.
If you want an expanded view of the work Next
City is doing in Kentucky, check out today's brand new
episode of the University of Minnesota's Side by Side podcast.
You can find it anywhere you get your podcasts, and
we'll link to it in the show notes. In the episode,
you'll hear from me and from Richard Young, the founder
(29:00):
of Civic Lex, as we explore how rural and urban
communities are recognizing their common ground, whether you are in
the heart of a metropolis or among the rolling hills beyond.
We hope the conversation sparks ideas for how your city
and its neighbors are stronger together. Our audio producer is
Silvan Alkala. Our show producer is Maggie Bowles, our executive
producer is Ryan Tillotson, and I'm Lucas Grinley, executive director
(29:23):
for Next City. We'd love to hear any feedback from
our listeners. Please feel free to email us at info
atnexcity dot org and if you haven't already, subscribed to
the show on Apple, Spotify, good Pods, or anywhere you
listen to your podcasts.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.