July 30, 2025 • 29 mins
Black power is more than symbolic. It’s a measurable reality tied to things like ownership, investment in neighborhoods, and—ultimately—life expectancy.
In this episode with the authors of two new books—“The Black Power Scorecard” and “The Banks We Deserve”—Andre Perry and Oscar Perry Abello talk about systems that have historically failed communities of color and what it will take to build lasting institutions that truly serve them. The episode is based on a Next City webinar produced earlier this year, "Achieving Economic Justice and Power."
Perry argues that Black communities already hold real power, except it’s often undervalued or ignored. His research reveals a strong link between life expectancy and factors like ownership of homes and businesses—which requires deliberate financial investment. As he puts it, “Nothing grows without investment.”
Abello calls out the stark disparities in community banking. Of the roughly 4,000 community banks in the U.S., only about 120 serve communities of color, meaning most character-based lending remains inaccessible to Black and brown entrepreneurs.
Listen to the episode to get examples of solutions and learn how to grow what’s working.
In this episode with the authors of two new books—“The Black Power Scorecard” and “The Banks We Deserve”—Andre Perry and Oscar Perry Abello talk about systems that have historically failed communities of color and what it will take to build lasting institutions that truly serve them. The episode is based on a Next City webinar produced earlier this year, "Achieving Economic Justice and Power."
Perry argues that Black communities already hold real power, except it’s often undervalued or ignored. His research reveals a strong link between life expectancy and factors like ownership of homes and businesses—which requires deliberate financial investment. As he puts it, “Nothing grows without investment.”
Abello calls out the stark disparities in community banking. Of the roughly 4,000 community banks in the U.S., only about 120 serve communities of color, meaning most character-based lending remains inaccessible to Black and brown entrepreneurs.
Listen to the episode to get examples of solutions and learn how to grow what’s working.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Straw Hut Media.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Nothing grows without investment, and so if you're not investing
in businesses, you see a downward spiral, particularly at the
community or neighborhood level.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
This is Lucas Grinley from Next City, a show about
change makers and their stories. Truth is, there are solutions
to the problems of pressing people in cities. If you're listening,
I hope it's because you want to spread good ideas
from one city to the next city. Black power is
about more than protests or equal protections. It can be
measured in things like years of life, in economic influence,
(00:41):
and in ownership. That is the idea behind the Black
Power Scorecard, a new book by doctor Andre Perry. He
looks at the conditions that shape life expectancy in black
communities and what changes when we treat these communities as
worthy of investment. This week, we're exploring the kinds of
institutions that help communities build lasting power, especially when that
(01:02):
power has long been undercut. You'll hear how local banks
can do what big banks won't, how thriving businesses are
being overlooked despite their success, and how we could do
a better job of measuring our progress. You might know
doctor Andrew Perry already. He's a Senior Fellow and director
of the Center for Community Uplift at the Brookings Institution.
His previous book was Know Your Price, Valuing Black Lives
(01:23):
and Property in America's Black Cities. In this episode, he's
in conversation with Oscar Perryobello, Next City's senior Economic Justice correspondent,
whose own new book, The Banks We Deserve explores how
banking can be reclaimed for community power. Helping lead the
conversation is Next City's editorial director Deanna Anderson.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
One of the things that came to mind and reading
your books is that, like in recent decades, power and
resources have mostly been in the hands of a smaller
number of people and corporations. So I'm curious if you
can both speak to how we as people who have
been marginalize, can take our power back, whether it's through
(02:03):
banking or housing or business ownership. Just share a little
bit of your perspective on that, and I'll start with Andre.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, you know, I do believe that there's power that's
inherent in many different communities, both material and I material power.
My belief is that we should invest in the factors
that are most important on life expectancy, and those are
(02:34):
things like home ownership, business ownership, education, I talk about immigration,
building strong families in the line. These shouldn't come as
a surprise, but there is current power within black communities.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
Now.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
We also know that historic discrimination has really throttled growth,
particularly among black communities. I mean when I say black communities,
I should say at the neighborhood level in particular, that
Black people and place are braided so tightly that you
(03:13):
can discriminate in place and impact people simultaneously. So for me,
it is about investing in the people and the places
that are worthy of investment.
Speaker 5 (03:29):
When you invest in any.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Group within the lowest rung of wealth, the lowest quintal
of wealth, if you quintyle the wealth, you also improve
the well being of everyone in a community.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
And so with all the.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Opportunity hoarding that takes place, that has taken place throughout
America's history, it has been to our collective detriment that
we are literally cutting our nose to spite our face
every time. We don't see that investing in people who've
(04:06):
been marginalized the positive impacts of that. And we know
that when it comes to wealth, we absolutely need financial
institutions to play a critical role, particularly when it comes
to home ownership and business development. And our research shows
(04:28):
that when it comes to predicting life expectancy, home ownership
and business ownership are positive predictors, so meaning when you
have more of them, you get better outcomes. And so
we do need to figure out ways to get to
extend credit to people who have great ideas, great businesses,
(04:51):
want to own a home, and in many in many ways,
it's the local institutions that are much more better posi
to distribute those those resources.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
Honestly, here you all speak makes me feel like a
little bit more hopeful. We already have power right now
and that's the reality, and we just have to like
keep investing in that. So with that in mind, I
want to mention a quote that's in the business section
of forty Acres in the mall. You write that many
(05:27):
black businesses are underappreciated assets that could be scaled with investment.
So can you she you talk a little bit about
the need for that intentional investment in black communities and
how it will lead to more power for them, and
maybe point to like a couple examples of businesses or
(05:47):
banks that have done this work well that can be
seen as like models for this work.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
One of the studies that we did a few years back,
we scraped all the Yelp data from business is all
across the country and we got the race of the owner.
And what we found is that Black, Brown, and Asian
owned firms actually score higher on Yelp than their counterparts.
Speaker 5 (06:12):
And what it.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Showed me that our elders work are correct when they
say our ice is just as cold, and it's one
of those sayings that it is not just an anecdote,
it really holds up. So for me, when you invest
in these underappreciated assets, meaning if you just add water,
(06:35):
these these businesses will grow, it's real. It's but we
do need our banks and our and financial institutions to
recognize their value. I forgot to mention they might score
higher and Yelp, but they get less revenue, and particularly
in black neighborhoods, so less revenue, less investment, less cut
(07:00):
submerded a result. And so for me, let's remove the
idea that our goods are not are not good. That's
our goods and services are good, are as good. So
what do we need to show to get banks and
other financial institutions to invest in them.
Speaker 5 (07:20):
That's that's the trip.
Speaker 6 (07:22):
Well, I mean, just to build off of what here
was talking about. You know, the businesses in these neighborhoods,
black and bround neighborhoods have goods and services that can
be famous on social media but won't be making multimillion
dollars as a as a franchise, or they won't be
distributed and every whole foods. You know, the point is
(07:44):
that there there are business plans or business ideas. There
are not just planes or ideas, but actual businesses selling
actual products right now in these neighborhoods that don't have
the same level of access to capital as their white counterparts.
Why do I know that? I know that because when
I look at because every community bank I've ever talked to,
(08:06):
and I've talked to hundreds of them, everyone said the
same thing. We lend to who we know and who
we trust. It's all its relationship based, character based lending,
community based underwriting. There are literally four thousand community banks
doing that in white neighborhoods. Four thousand white owned community
banks providing this sort of flexible, community based, character based
(08:29):
kind of underwriting for small businesses especially. Meanwhile, there are
only one hundred and twenty of those community banks doing
that in black and brown neighborhoods or Asian American neighborhoods
orre You know, there's only one hundred and twenty community
banks out of four thousand that are doing that work.
(08:51):
Who know, communities of color? We you know, we have
the reality of this country and the community, the cities
and the communities that we have is we live in
We live in segregated neighborhoods. We all know this. That's
how the cities are, That's how cities are set up,
communities are set up. Only some business owner in some
neighborhoods have the same level have enough access to that
(09:14):
kind of flexible, community based, character based kind of capital.
And I think there is a tremendous amount of value
in investing that.
Speaker 7 (09:23):
Can only happen when you have that level of connection
between the bank and the communities it serves, when everyone
up to the up to the chair of the board
knows the neighborhoods that the banks that the bank is served.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
When I started examining underwriting practices in general, it was
amazing at how qualitative.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
It is.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It's very I'm thinking it's going to be this mathematical
of very formulating sort of approach. No, it's very qualitative
and need I mean, it's a framework that you can
apply and you can move within that framework. It's just
when it when it's applied to black people, there's less
(10:18):
wiggle room given and less trust applied. And so it's
it's just amazing how subjective these processes can be and
how critical they can be of black and brown entrepreneurs,
(10:40):
black and brown homeowners, and and and and it goes
without saying, but we do need to be explicit. Nothing
grows without investment, and so if you're not investing in businesses,
you see a downward spiral, particularly at the community or
neighborhood level, that if businesses aren't grown, if people aren't
(11:01):
buying homes, you start to see an impact in education
and in in other social areas. Because by the way,
education does not predict for wealth. Wealth predicts for education.
So if you, if you really are in the business
serious business of improving education, make sure that mortgages are available.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
For qualified buyers.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
So the point is that if we really want communities
to grow, at some point, you have to cut the
check and we're just not cutting checks in areas and
for people who deserve the resource, and and if you don't,
(11:46):
and that's and that's the issue. There's in financing. There's
only two things. There's equity in their debt, right, and
so if you're if you don't have equity, who have
to go to debt. But if you want to get equity,
you need loan products that can work with the community.
Speaker 5 (12:05):
You need some way to build assets.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
So the lack of community banks really has a detrimental
effect impact on the overall wealth profiles of people in communities.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
After the break, we'll get into why it's not enough
to fund individual businesses and why real progress means building durable,
community rooted institutions that can evolve with the neighborhoods they serve.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
We've been talking about the power that already exists in
black communities and what happens when that power is ignored
or undervalued. As Andrea Perry puts it, nothing grows without investment.
And when financial institutions fail to see the value in
black businesses or neighborhoods, it's not just a missed opportunity,
it's a drag on entire communities. Oscar Periabello laid out
the stark imbalanced thousands of community banks serve white neighborhoods,
(13:02):
but only a small fraction are rooted in communities of color.
And we heard how local banks built on trust and
proximity our best positioned to meet people where they are.
Both Andre Perry and Oscar Periobello make the case that
real progress requires building banks and financial systems that are
rooted in community, designed to last, and capable of evolving
alongside the people they serve. Here's Oscar.
Speaker 6 (13:27):
It starts with, you know, first of all, somebody or
somebody who's usually one or two people or group of
people who are you know, just realizing there is an
unmet credit need or a market that's not being served
by other banks. And rather than waiting around or trying to,
you know, bring in some other bank and say, hey,
(13:49):
there's a market you're missing here, they went ahead and
put in business planning together. I said, you know, these
are our potential clients, and we're going to go out
and serve them. Like Arl of Washington down and people
Trust Federal Credit Union in Low Rock, Arkansas. You know,
he may have seen the documentary The Barber Little Rock.
He started making loans first, you know, sort of out
of his own pocket even or out of the coffers
(14:11):
of the barber academy that he started in Little Rock,
and eventually made his way all the way around to
creating a credit union and get the nactually providing people
bank accounts as individuals and even business owners right each community.
They start with recognizing there are unmet needs here, and
(14:33):
we think that we can create a sustainable financial institution
that can meet those needs not just today, but like
evolved with those needs over time. I think that's something
that's missing from a lot of the landscape. Today's lot.
I see a lot of folks who are you know,
creating you know, funds to invest in black businesses or
(14:56):
funds to invest in affordable housing. But no one's building
institutetions that will be connected and uh and and based
in these communities and will grow and evolve with their
needs over time.
Speaker 5 (15:11):
You can.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Things that drive me nuts. That one when people talk
about or when I hear leaders in the financial service
sector talk about of the bank, it's not it can't
be sustained in these areas. I'm like, well, you have
all these predatory financial institutions doing well, charging higher fees,
(15:40):
higher interest rates, and and they're doing well, and and
because there are customers with money in these neighborhoods, in
these neighborhoods, so you could actually do very well in
these communities. And on the on the flip side is
sort of on this at San Cooin, I could not
(16:02):
agree more. I see more sort of philanthropic efforts to
give or provide financial services to black and brown people.
But I'm like, why not start a bank like this
can't just be a fund that there is a place
(16:24):
component component to this. And I think people are enamored
in this venture capital world to be able to give
money to an individual or a business of their liking
or that meets their sort of theory of action. But
(16:45):
what's probably more important is to establish institutions in community.
So on both side, I don't want to make it
a political spectrum. You have people who are saying, oh,
we can't have a bank there when obviously there are
predatory financial.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
Institutions in these places.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
And then you have on more i'll say, i'll say
progressive side, people who are saying well meaning folks say
I'm going to start a fund that will.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
Get to this group of people. It's called a bank.
It's called a bank. People.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Let's let's let's create institutions that are durable, that recognize
the value of black and brown people. And and I
just want to also want to be clear about this.
Having black and brown skin doesn't make you more noble
or a better person. What it does generally you have perspective.
(17:46):
You can see the value in a business, in a
customer that you wouldn't otherwise see if.
Speaker 5 (17:54):
You were if you weren't proximate to the folks. So
when I talk.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
About black and brown led financial institutions, they are the
kind of institutions that are approximate to the people, that
recognize the value. They literally like they know people by
first name. And during the pandemic, we we absolutely saw
CDFIs and of their neighborhood facing institutions really step up
(18:25):
in terms of bolstering these businesses and communities.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
So we need local institutions.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Not just a fund that you you know, feel compelled
to do. And I don't want to you know, that
might be I might be throwing shade on a bunch
of people, But the point is we need institutions, not
funds that you can just give to whom you think
(18:56):
fits your model.
Speaker 8 (18:58):
Yeah, I mean it goes hand in hand with one
of the big messages out of your book, Andre, which is,
you know, we're talking a lot about banks today because
it's it's and and money and finances and businesses and
home ownership.
Speaker 6 (19:10):
But you know, I really appreciate how in your book
you're trying to like give a north star to all
of this, like like it's not just it's not just
about businesses, it's not just about home ownership, it's not
just about education. Like looking at life, this expectancy and
trying to see like they're they're like all of these
things added up together are supposed to produce like flourishing
(19:34):
on a more than material level.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
You know.
Speaker 6 (19:37):
It's it's about the community and about all the factors
that actually literally produces more life like that that's the
end goal. That's why you need financial institutions rooting in
these neighborhoods because because these are interviews that are aligned
with that mindset. We're going to invest in these businesses.
(19:57):
We're going to give these folks in these where has
a safe, livel place with their savings and we're all
going to grow together. And like the longer folks live,
the more powerful the institution becomes. I want thanks to
be dependent on each community's literal livelihood. Those are the
(20:19):
institutions that we deserve.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
YEP.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
When I wrote Black Power Scorecard, I did try to
find the north star. What what? Ultimately, what are we
trying to do? And that's our natural lives and you
need but here's the thing that you need, the neighborhood
conditions that facilitate a long life. So and with that said,
(20:50):
certainly the anchor institutions, and we don't talk enough about these.
I mean anchor institutions, remember hospitals, the schools, the banks,
Because we recognize that these institutions are the lifeblood of
a community. They can facilitate longevity or within their absence
(21:13):
you can really shorten life expectancy. And so I want
every neighborhood. I want every community to have the things they.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
Need to grow.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
In my research, I mentioned how our books inter sect
is around particularly for at least from my perspective, around
increasing home ownership and business ownership. You can't do that
without strong financial institutions that are approximate to people you
can't do that without innovative products coming out of these
(21:47):
institutions that recognize that discrimination is real and that and
you need new ways of distributing resources. So we just
need to really have good conversations about community wealth, community health,
(22:07):
community well being, these things that occur in space, in
a geography, These assets that are necessary to propel life
in a place. And without question, you need some financial
services in a place, and I want to say a
(22:29):
bank of some sort, meaning you need a anchor institution
that regularly gets the capital to the people who need it.
Black power can be measured in years of life. Let's
create the kinds of environments that give power to black people.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
After the break, the conversation turns to the role of narrative,
how storytelling and data can work together to shift hearts
and minds, and why changing the way we talk about
black communities is essential to changing policy.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
We've been unpacking what it really means to build black
power through concrete investments that shape everyday life. Andre Perry
argues real power shows up in ownership in institutions and
ultimately in years of life gained. And he's clear without investment,
nothing grows Oscar Perio Bello adds that it's not just
about money, it's about proximity, trust, designing systems that serve
(23:34):
the communities they're part of. To close out the conversation, next,
citi's editorial director Deanna Anderson brings us to another layer
of that power, the role of narrative. How do the
stories we tell shape what's possible and what gets funded.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
One of the things that I've been thinking about is
the need for us to continue to learn about history
related to discrimination and racial profiling, especially in the time
when this country and the federal administration is basically trying
to erase that history or limit access to that. And
(24:15):
I'm curious about how each of you feel around like
the importance of storytelling and narrative change and addressing inequality,
because of course we need all these actions that have
been discussed in this conversation, but also like, how do
we get people to actually do more. Do you feel
like storytelling and narrative change is a part of that
(24:36):
at all?
Speaker 5 (24:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Absolutely, I think I work at the Brookings Institution, where
a policy think tank. In order to change policy, you
absolutely need to change hearts and minds at the same time,
and the way you do that is through good storytelling.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
People need to see themselves in the data. I mean,
I do put a lot time in using.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
The rhetorical power of numbers, in a sense that when
people see numbers they go, oh.
Speaker 5 (25:07):
That see I told you this is how I feel.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
But you also need to show people and their stories
because when people can see themselves in a subject, in
a story, it can propel them to act.
Speaker 5 (25:27):
They can resonate with it. And so.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
A lot of my research you can find on the
Brookings website, and I encourage people to do so. But
we also need the stories that journalists right, that others write,
that fiction writers provide. That the numbers only do part
(25:53):
of the job. There's an overarching narrative that drives change.
A lot of people who know me from my housing
devaluation work understand that while it was a lot about
the financial loss and equity in black neighborhoods, it's also
about showing that our homes are much more valuable than
(26:15):
they are priced. And people need to feel that narrative
because that's what's empowering. That when they see, oh, I'm
much more valuable than what people perceive me to be.
That's what we also need to change. And I mean,
(26:37):
obviously we want to work on housing, we want to work,
but there's a narrative that goes along with it.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
What might be some strategies or best approaches for community
members to have as tools when approaching a bank or
lender for a home loan or a business loan.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I think one of the things that we talk about
at least Oscar has been on the front lines for
is abound special purpose credit program. There are a lot
of products out there that could service.
Speaker 5 (27:09):
Black and brown.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
People in special purpose credit programs are those programs that
can change underwriting practices to essentially meet people where there are.
There's how discrimination shows up, and particularly in mortgage lending
is a lack of a down payment. And so there
(27:30):
are thousands of people who are doing everything right, have
the income, have the credit score, and the history of
paying rent on time or another thing, but they just
can't save enough for that down payment. Why not create
a product for them? So I think community members really
(27:55):
do need to demand the kind of products and services
that meet them where they are. So and I think
that's more likely to particularly in this environment where certain
banks have lost their power to extend special purpose credit program,
but I think that's an area where communities can certainly
(28:18):
demand more from their financial institution.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
We hope you enjoyed this episode of Next City show
about change makers and their stories. Together, we can spread
good ideas from one city to the next city. Thank
you for listening this week. Thank you to our guest
Andre Perry. His book The Black Power Scorecard is out now.
Thank you to our guest Andre Perry, His book The
Black Power Scorecard is out now. Thank you to the
Next City Senior Economic Justice correspondent Oscar Periobello. His book
(28:58):
The Banks We Deserve is all out now. And thanks
to Deanna Anderson for facilitating this conversation. Today's episode was
adapted from a webinar. To watch the whole conversation, visit
nexcity dot org slash webinars. Our audio producer is Silvana Alcala.
Our show producers Maggie Bowles, Our executive producers Yan Tillotson,
and I'm Lucas Grinley, executive director for Next City. By
the way, Next City is a news organization with a
(29:20):
nonprofit model. If you like what we're doing here, please
consider pitching in to support our work. Visit nextity dot org,
slash membership to make a donation. We'd love to hear
any feedback from our listeners. Please feel free to email
us at info atnexcity dot org and if you haven't already,
subscribed to the show on Apple, Spotify, Good Pods, or
anywhere you listen to your podcasts.
Straw Hut Media.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Nothing grows without investment, and so if you're not investing
in businesses, you see a downward spiral, particularly at the
community or neighborhood level.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
This is Lucas Grinley from Next City, a show about
change makers and their stories. Truth is, there are solutions
to the problems of pressing people in cities. If you're listening,
I hope it's because you want to spread good ideas
from one city to the next city. Black power is
about more than protests or equal protections. It can be
measured in things like years of life, in economic influence,
(00:41):
and in ownership. That is the idea behind the Black
Power Scorecard, a new book by doctor Andre Perry. He
looks at the conditions that shape life expectancy in black
communities and what changes when we treat these communities as
worthy of investment. This week, we're exploring the kinds of
institutions that help communities build lasting power, especially when that
(01:02):
power has long been undercut. You'll hear how local banks
can do what big banks won't, how thriving businesses are
being overlooked despite their success, and how we could do
a better job of measuring our progress. You might know
doctor Andrew Perry already. He's a Senior Fellow and director
of the Center for Community Uplift at the Brookings Institution.
His previous book was Know Your Price, Valuing Black Lives
(01:23):
and Property in America's Black Cities. In this episode, he's
in conversation with Oscar Perryobello, Next City's senior Economic Justice correspondent,
whose own new book, The Banks We Deserve explores how
banking can be reclaimed for community power. Helping lead the
conversation is Next City's editorial director Deanna Anderson.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
One of the things that came to mind and reading
your books is that, like in recent decades, power and
resources have mostly been in the hands of a smaller
number of people and corporations. So I'm curious if you
can both speak to how we as people who have
been marginalize, can take our power back, whether it's through
(02:03):
banking or housing or business ownership. Just share a little
bit of your perspective on that, and I'll start with Andre.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, you know, I do believe that there's power that's
inherent in many different communities, both material and I material power.
My belief is that we should invest in the factors
that are most important on life expectancy, and those are
(02:34):
things like home ownership, business ownership, education, I talk about immigration,
building strong families in the line. These shouldn't come as
a surprise, but there is current power within black communities.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
Now.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
We also know that historic discrimination has really throttled growth,
particularly among black communities. I mean when I say black communities,
I should say at the neighborhood level in particular, that
Black people and place are braided so tightly that you
(03:13):
can discriminate in place and impact people simultaneously. So for me,
it is about investing in the people and the places
that are worthy of investment.
Speaker 5 (03:29):
When you invest in any.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Group within the lowest rung of wealth, the lowest quintal
of wealth, if you quintyle the wealth, you also improve
the well being of everyone in a community.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
And so with all the.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Opportunity hoarding that takes place, that has taken place throughout
America's history, it has been to our collective detriment that
we are literally cutting our nose to spite our face
every time. We don't see that investing in people who've
(04:06):
been marginalized the positive impacts of that. And we know
that when it comes to wealth, we absolutely need financial
institutions to play a critical role, particularly when it comes
to home ownership and business development. And our research shows
(04:28):
that when it comes to predicting life expectancy, home ownership
and business ownership are positive predictors, so meaning when you
have more of them, you get better outcomes. And so
we do need to figure out ways to get to
extend credit to people who have great ideas, great businesses,
(04:51):
want to own a home, and in many in many ways,
it's the local institutions that are much more better posi
to distribute those those resources.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
Honestly, here you all speak makes me feel like a
little bit more hopeful. We already have power right now
and that's the reality, and we just have to like
keep investing in that. So with that in mind, I
want to mention a quote that's in the business section
of forty Acres in the mall. You write that many
(05:27):
black businesses are underappreciated assets that could be scaled with investment.
So can you she you talk a little bit about
the need for that intentional investment in black communities and
how it will lead to more power for them, and
maybe point to like a couple examples of businesses or
(05:47):
banks that have done this work well that can be
seen as like models for this work.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
One of the studies that we did a few years back,
we scraped all the Yelp data from business is all
across the country and we got the race of the owner.
And what we found is that Black, Brown, and Asian
owned firms actually score higher on Yelp than their counterparts.
Speaker 5 (06:12):
And what it.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Showed me that our elders work are correct when they
say our ice is just as cold, and it's one
of those sayings that it is not just an anecdote,
it really holds up. So for me, when you invest
in these underappreciated assets, meaning if you just add water,
(06:35):
these these businesses will grow, it's real. It's but we
do need our banks and our and financial institutions to
recognize their value. I forgot to mention they might score
higher and Yelp, but they get less revenue, and particularly
in black neighborhoods, so less revenue, less investment, less cut
(07:00):
submerded a result. And so for me, let's remove the
idea that our goods are not are not good. That's
our goods and services are good, are as good. So
what do we need to show to get banks and
other financial institutions to invest in them.
Speaker 5 (07:20):
That's that's the trip.
Speaker 6 (07:22):
Well, I mean, just to build off of what here
was talking about. You know, the businesses in these neighborhoods,
black and bround neighborhoods have goods and services that can
be famous on social media but won't be making multimillion
dollars as a as a franchise, or they won't be
distributed and every whole foods. You know, the point is
(07:44):
that there there are business plans or business ideas. There
are not just planes or ideas, but actual businesses selling
actual products right now in these neighborhoods that don't have
the same level of access to capital as their white counterparts.
Why do I know that? I know that because when
I look at because every community bank I've ever talked to,
(08:06):
and I've talked to hundreds of them, everyone said the
same thing. We lend to who we know and who
we trust. It's all its relationship based, character based lending,
community based underwriting. There are literally four thousand community banks
doing that in white neighborhoods. Four thousand white owned community
banks providing this sort of flexible, community based, character based
(08:29):
kind of underwriting for small businesses especially. Meanwhile, there are
only one hundred and twenty of those community banks doing
that in black and brown neighborhoods or Asian American neighborhoods
orre You know, there's only one hundred and twenty community
banks out of four thousand that are doing that work.
(08:51):
Who know, communities of color? We you know, we have
the reality of this country and the community, the cities
and the communities that we have is we live in
We live in segregated neighborhoods. We all know this. That's
how the cities are, That's how cities are set up,
communities are set up. Only some business owner in some
neighborhoods have the same level have enough access to that
(09:14):
kind of flexible, community based, character based kind of capital.
And I think there is a tremendous amount of value
in investing that.
Speaker 7 (09:23):
Can only happen when you have that level of connection
between the bank and the communities it serves, when everyone
up to the up to the chair of the board
knows the neighborhoods that the banks that the bank is served.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
When I started examining underwriting practices in general, it was
amazing at how qualitative.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
It is.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It's very I'm thinking it's going to be this mathematical
of very formulating sort of approach. No, it's very qualitative
and need I mean, it's a framework that you can
apply and you can move within that framework. It's just
when it when it's applied to black people, there's less
(10:18):
wiggle room given and less trust applied. And so it's
it's just amazing how subjective these processes can be and
how critical they can be of black and brown entrepreneurs,
(10:40):
black and brown homeowners, and and and and it goes
without saying, but we do need to be explicit. Nothing
grows without investment, and so if you're not investing in businesses,
you see a downward spiral, particularly at the community or
neighborhood level, that if businesses aren't grown, if people aren't
(11:01):
buying homes, you start to see an impact in education
and in in other social areas. Because by the way,
education does not predict for wealth. Wealth predicts for education.
So if you, if you really are in the business
serious business of improving education, make sure that mortgages are available.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
For qualified buyers.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
So the point is that if we really want communities
to grow, at some point, you have to cut the
check and we're just not cutting checks in areas and
for people who deserve the resource, and and if you don't,
(11:46):
and that's and that's the issue. There's in financing. There's
only two things. There's equity in their debt, right, and
so if you're if you don't have equity, who have
to go to debt. But if you want to get equity,
you need loan products that can work with the community.
Speaker 5 (12:05):
You need some way to build assets.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
So the lack of community banks really has a detrimental
effect impact on the overall wealth profiles of people in communities.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
After the break, we'll get into why it's not enough
to fund individual businesses and why real progress means building durable,
community rooted institutions that can evolve with the neighborhoods they serve.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
We've been talking about the power that already exists in
black communities and what happens when that power is ignored
or undervalued. As Andrea Perry puts it, nothing grows without investment.
And when financial institutions fail to see the value in
black businesses or neighborhoods, it's not just a missed opportunity,
it's a drag on entire communities. Oscar Periabello laid out
the stark imbalanced thousands of community banks serve white neighborhoods,
(13:02):
but only a small fraction are rooted in communities of color.
And we heard how local banks built on trust and
proximity our best positioned to meet people where they are.
Both Andre Perry and Oscar Periobello make the case that
real progress requires building banks and financial systems that are
rooted in community, designed to last, and capable of evolving
alongside the people they serve. Here's Oscar.
Speaker 6 (13:27):
It starts with, you know, first of all, somebody or
somebody who's usually one or two people or group of
people who are you know, just realizing there is an
unmet credit need or a market that's not being served
by other banks. And rather than waiting around or trying to,
you know, bring in some other bank and say, hey,
(13:49):
there's a market you're missing here, they went ahead and
put in business planning together. I said, you know, these
are our potential clients, and we're going to go out
and serve them. Like Arl of Washington down and people
Trust Federal Credit Union in Low Rock, Arkansas. You know,
he may have seen the documentary The Barber Little Rock.
He started making loans first, you know, sort of out
of his own pocket even or out of the coffers
(14:11):
of the barber academy that he started in Little Rock,
and eventually made his way all the way around to
creating a credit union and get the nactually providing people
bank accounts as individuals and even business owners right each community.
They start with recognizing there are unmet needs here, and
(14:33):
we think that we can create a sustainable financial institution
that can meet those needs not just today, but like
evolved with those needs over time. I think that's something
that's missing from a lot of the landscape. Today's lot.
I see a lot of folks who are you know,
creating you know, funds to invest in black businesses or
(14:56):
funds to invest in affordable housing. But no one's building
institutetions that will be connected and uh and and based
in these communities and will grow and evolve with their
needs over time.
Speaker 5 (15:11):
You can.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Things that drive me nuts. That one when people talk
about or when I hear leaders in the financial service
sector talk about of the bank, it's not it can't
be sustained in these areas. I'm like, well, you have
all these predatory financial institutions doing well, charging higher fees,
(15:40):
higher interest rates, and and they're doing well, and and
because there are customers with money in these neighborhoods, in
these neighborhoods, so you could actually do very well in
these communities. And on the on the flip side is
sort of on this at San Cooin, I could not
(16:02):
agree more. I see more sort of philanthropic efforts to
give or provide financial services to black and brown people.
But I'm like, why not start a bank like this
can't just be a fund that there is a place
(16:24):
component component to this. And I think people are enamored
in this venture capital world to be able to give
money to an individual or a business of their liking
or that meets their sort of theory of action. But
(16:45):
what's probably more important is to establish institutions in community.
So on both side, I don't want to make it
a political spectrum. You have people who are saying, oh,
we can't have a bank there when obviously there are
predatory financial.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
Institutions in these places.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
And then you have on more i'll say, i'll say
progressive side, people who are saying well meaning folks say
I'm going to start a fund that will.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
Get to this group of people. It's called a bank.
It's called a bank. People.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Let's let's let's create institutions that are durable, that recognize
the value of black and brown people. And and I
just want to also want to be clear about this.
Having black and brown skin doesn't make you more noble
or a better person. What it does generally you have perspective.
(17:46):
You can see the value in a business, in a
customer that you wouldn't otherwise see if.
Speaker 5 (17:54):
You were if you weren't proximate to the folks. So
when I talk.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
About black and brown led financial institutions, they are the
kind of institutions that are approximate to the people, that
recognize the value. They literally like they know people by
first name. And during the pandemic, we we absolutely saw
CDFIs and of their neighborhood facing institutions really step up
(18:25):
in terms of bolstering these businesses and communities.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
So we need local institutions.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Not just a fund that you you know, feel compelled
to do. And I don't want to you know, that
might be I might be throwing shade on a bunch
of people, But the point is we need institutions, not
funds that you can just give to whom you think
(18:56):
fits your model.
Speaker 8 (18:58):
Yeah, I mean it goes hand in hand with one
of the big messages out of your book, Andre, which is,
you know, we're talking a lot about banks today because
it's it's and and money and finances and businesses and
home ownership.
Speaker 6 (19:10):
But you know, I really appreciate how in your book
you're trying to like give a north star to all
of this, like like it's not just it's not just
about businesses, it's not just about home ownership, it's not
just about education. Like looking at life, this expectancy and
trying to see like they're they're like all of these
things added up together are supposed to produce like flourishing
(19:34):
on a more than material level.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
You know.
Speaker 6 (19:37):
It's it's about the community and about all the factors
that actually literally produces more life like that that's the
end goal. That's why you need financial institutions rooting in
these neighborhoods because because these are interviews that are aligned
with that mindset. We're going to invest in these businesses.
(19:57):
We're going to give these folks in these where has
a safe, livel place with their savings and we're all
going to grow together. And like the longer folks live,
the more powerful the institution becomes. I want thanks to
be dependent on each community's literal livelihood. Those are the
(20:19):
institutions that we deserve.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
YEP.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
When I wrote Black Power Scorecard, I did try to
find the north star. What what? Ultimately, what are we
trying to do? And that's our natural lives and you
need but here's the thing that you need, the neighborhood
conditions that facilitate a long life. So and with that said,
(20:50):
certainly the anchor institutions, and we don't talk enough about these.
I mean anchor institutions, remember hospitals, the schools, the banks,
Because we recognize that these institutions are the lifeblood of
a community. They can facilitate longevity or within their absence
(21:13):
you can really shorten life expectancy. And so I want
every neighborhood. I want every community to have the things they.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
Need to grow.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
In my research, I mentioned how our books inter sect
is around particularly for at least from my perspective, around
increasing home ownership and business ownership. You can't do that
without strong financial institutions that are approximate to people you
can't do that without innovative products coming out of these
(21:47):
institutions that recognize that discrimination is real and that and
you need new ways of distributing resources. So we just
need to really have good conversations about community wealth, community health,
(22:07):
community well being, these things that occur in space, in
a geography, These assets that are necessary to propel life
in a place. And without question, you need some financial
services in a place, and I want to say a
(22:29):
bank of some sort, meaning you need a anchor institution
that regularly gets the capital to the people who need it.
Black power can be measured in years of life. Let's
create the kinds of environments that give power to black people.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
After the break, the conversation turns to the role of narrative,
how storytelling and data can work together to shift hearts
and minds, and why changing the way we talk about
black communities is essential to changing policy.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
We've been unpacking what it really means to build black
power through concrete investments that shape everyday life. Andre Perry
argues real power shows up in ownership in institutions and
ultimately in years of life gained. And he's clear without investment,
nothing grows Oscar Perio Bello adds that it's not just
about money, it's about proximity, trust, designing systems that serve
(23:34):
the communities they're part of. To close out the conversation, next,
citi's editorial director Deanna Anderson brings us to another layer
of that power, the role of narrative. How do the
stories we tell shape what's possible and what gets funded.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
One of the things that I've been thinking about is
the need for us to continue to learn about history
related to discrimination and racial profiling, especially in the time
when this country and the federal administration is basically trying
to erase that history or limit access to that. And
(24:15):
I'm curious about how each of you feel around like
the importance of storytelling and narrative change and addressing inequality,
because of course we need all these actions that have
been discussed in this conversation, but also like, how do
we get people to actually do more. Do you feel
like storytelling and narrative change is a part of that
(24:36):
at all?
Speaker 5 (24:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Absolutely, I think I work at the Brookings Institution, where
a policy think tank. In order to change policy, you
absolutely need to change hearts and minds at the same time,
and the way you do that is through good storytelling.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
People need to see themselves in the data. I mean,
I do put a lot time in using.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
The rhetorical power of numbers, in a sense that when
people see numbers they go, oh.
Speaker 5 (25:07):
That see I told you this is how I feel.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
But you also need to show people and their stories
because when people can see themselves in a subject, in
a story, it can propel them to act.
Speaker 5 (25:27):
They can resonate with it. And so.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
A lot of my research you can find on the
Brookings website, and I encourage people to do so. But
we also need the stories that journalists right, that others write,
that fiction writers provide. That the numbers only do part
(25:53):
of the job. There's an overarching narrative that drives change.
A lot of people who know me from my housing
devaluation work understand that while it was a lot about
the financial loss and equity in black neighborhoods, it's also
about showing that our homes are much more valuable than
(26:15):
they are priced. And people need to feel that narrative
because that's what's empowering. That when they see, oh, I'm
much more valuable than what people perceive me to be.
That's what we also need to change. And I mean,
(26:37):
obviously we want to work on housing, we want to work,
but there's a narrative that goes along with it.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
What might be some strategies or best approaches for community
members to have as tools when approaching a bank or
lender for a home loan or a business loan.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I think one of the things that we talk about
at least Oscar has been on the front lines for
is abound special purpose credit program. There are a lot
of products out there that could service.
Speaker 5 (27:09):
Black and brown.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
People in special purpose credit programs are those programs that
can change underwriting practices to essentially meet people where there are.
There's how discrimination shows up, and particularly in mortgage lending
is a lack of a down payment. And so there
(27:30):
are thousands of people who are doing everything right, have
the income, have the credit score, and the history of
paying rent on time or another thing, but they just
can't save enough for that down payment. Why not create
a product for them? So I think community members really
(27:55):
do need to demand the kind of products and services
that meet them where they are. So and I think
that's more likely to particularly in this environment where certain
banks have lost their power to extend special purpose credit program,
but I think that's an area where communities can certainly
(28:18):
demand more from their financial institution.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
We hope you enjoyed this episode of Next City show
about change makers and their stories. Together, we can spread
good ideas from one city to the next city. Thank
you for listening this week. Thank you to our guest
Andre Perry. His book The Black Power Scorecard is out now.
Thank you to our guest Andre Perry, His book The
Black Power Scorecard is out now. Thank you to the
Next City Senior Economic Justice correspondent Oscar Periobello. His book
(28:58):
The Banks We Deserve is all out now. And thanks
to Deanna Anderson for facilitating this conversation. Today's episode was
adapted from a webinar. To watch the whole conversation, visit
nexcity dot org slash webinars. Our audio producer is Silvana Alcala.
Our show producers Maggie Bowles, Our executive producers Yan Tillotson,
and I'm Lucas Grinley, executive director for Next City. By
the way, Next City is a news organization with a
(29:20):
nonprofit model. If you like what we're doing here, please
consider pitching in to support our work. Visit nextity dot org,
slash membership to make a donation. We'd love to hear
any feedback from our listeners. Please feel free to email
us at info atnexcity dot org and if you haven't already,
subscribed to the show on Apple, Spotify, Good Pods, or
anywhere you listen to your podcasts.
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