Do Better & Be Better w/ Kelly McDonald

Kelly McDonald, bestselling author of four books on business and leadership, acclaimed speaker, and founder of one of the nation's top advertising agencies, joins program host Dr. Chris Meek on this episode of Next Steps Forward. Kelly has built her career on the belief that embracing our differences can lead to greater creativity, innovation, and success in both our work and personal lives. She will dive deep into her philosophy of working with people "not like us." From different personalities to varying work habits, Kelly shares why we should stop viewing our differences as barriers and start using them as strengths. She explores how traits like being a morning person vs. a night owl, introvert vs. extrovert, or analytical vs. creative can lead to more ideas, more joy, and a more collaborative environment. Kelly also addresses the topic of diversity beyond the usual discussions of race, gender, and sexuality. With practical tips and real-world examples, she offers actionable advice on how to connect with colleagues and clients who may have different viewpoints, political ideologies, and working styles—while fostering an inclusive, dynamic culture that brings out the best in everyone. Tune in to hear about Kelly's journey, the mindset that propelled her to success, and how we can all better navigate the complexities of working with people who are different from us—whether it’s at work or in life. Don’t miss this inspiring conversation on how embracing differences can transform our businesses and our relationships!

 

About Kelly McDonald: Kelly McDonald is considered one of the nation’s top experts in diversity, equity & inclusion (DE&I), leadership, marketing and sales to people “not like you”, consumer trends, and leveraging the customer experience. Kelly is a 4X bestselling author and renowned professional speaker. She is also the founder of McDonald Marketing, which has twice been named one of the “Top Ad Agencies in the U.S.” by Advertising Age magazine and ranked as one of the fastest-growing independently-owned companies in the U.S. by Inc. Magazine. She has been featured on CNBC, in Forbes Magazine, BusinessWeek, Fast Company, on CNNMoney.com and on SiriusXM Radio. Her client experience includes iconic brands such as Toyota, State Farm, Nike, Harley-Davidson, Miller-Coors and Sherwin-Williams, Great Clips and NASA. Kelly is originally from Milwaukee, Wisconsin and graduated from the University of Wisconsin – Madison.  She now lives in Denver, Colorado.  When she’s not speaking and traveling for business, she enjoys boxing (yes, actual boxing – not kickboxing!) and shopping for high heels.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
There are few things that make people successful.

(00:08):
Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some
time to get there.
How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you?
Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek.
Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.

(00:30):
Now here is Chris Meek.
Hello.
You've tuned to this week's episode of Next Steps Forward, and I'm your host, Chris Meek.
As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us.
Next Steps Forward is committing helping others achieve more than ever while experiencing
greater personal empowerment and wellbeing.
Our guest today is Kelly MacDonald, who is considered one of the nation's top experts
on diversity, equity, and inclusion, leadership, marketing, and sales to people not like you,

(00:55):
consumer trends, and leveraging the customer experience.
She's a four-time bestselling author and renowned speaker.
She's also the founder of McDonald Marketing, which has twice been named one of the top
ad agencies in the US by Advertising Magazine and ranked as one of America's fastest growing
independently owned companies by Inc. Magazine.
She's been featured on CNBC, CNNMoney.com, SiriusXM Radio, and in Forbes Magazine, Business

(01:17):
Week, and Fast Company.
And her client experience includes such iconic brands as Toyota, State Farm, Nike, Harley
Davidson, Miller Coors, Great Clips, Sherwin-Williams, and of course, NASA.
Kelly MacDonald, welcome to Next Steps Forward.
Thank you.
Happy to be here.
Now, I appreciate your time.
We were just talking before the show.
You were traveling.
You got home late.

(01:37):
So again, really appreciate your time on this.
So thank you.
Kelly, let's jump right into it.
You're the author of four bestselling books, including How to Work with and Lead People
Not Like You, How to Market to People Not Like You, and Crafting the Customer Experience
for People Not Like You.
People in our audience might have noticed a theme there, and that's a focus on the phrase
people not like you.

(01:59):
As a top expert on diversity, equity, inclusion, why don't those titles include the words diversity,
equity, and inclusion?
Because, great question.
I think when I say what I call the D word, you know, diversity, that people tend to think
very, very narrowly about that.
They default to where diversity conversations started 20 years ago, which is, you know,

(02:21):
what I call the big five, which is race, ethnicity, age or generational differences, gender, and
LGBTQ or sexuality, et cetera.
So those were the big five, and that's all that diversity meant, you know, 20 years ago,
those big five.
And my definition of diversity is any way that you can be different from me.

(02:45):
And so, especially in business, you know, if you're an introvert and I'm an extrovert,
if you are in a rural community and I live in a loft in Manhattan, if, you know, you
are an engineer and I'm a graphic designer, our brains are going to be, you know, working
very, very differently in the way that we have conceptual ideas and things like that.

(03:05):
So everything can be different that has nothing to do with what I call the envelope.
The envelope is like what we see, right?
Like I can see your age, I can see your gender, I can see, you know, I can see your race,
et cetera, or ethnicity.
And I don't think that's what makes us us.
I think that's a part of what makes us us, but I think what really makes us us and makes

(03:28):
it sometimes hard to connect with people who are not like you are differences that have
nothing to do with the envelope.
So you mentioned the D word.
Is it true that your presentations have actually avoided the D word, which is diversity, for
22 years?
Yes.
I mean, I will sometimes just say the reason I don't talk about it using the D word, diversity,

(03:49):
is that people think too narrowly.
And what I want to do when I'm, especially when I'm talking to audiences on stage is
I want them to think about all the ways that all the people that they work with, and especially
maybe where the friction points are, and it's usually with somebody who is not like them,
but in a way that is not part of those, that big five, you know, it might be like, wow,

(04:10):
this person is just, you know, this person is really stubborn and I'm not stubborn.
I'm flexible, you know, that kind of thing.
And it's like, those are the friction points that end up happening to us at work and in
our real lives.
And I mean, maybe they have to do with the envelope.
Maybe they don't, but I just wanted to, you know, broaden people.
So I really don't use that word very much at all.

(04:32):
What led you to use the phrase people not like you instead of traditional DEI terminology?
Was there an aha moment or what happened?
Yeah, actually it was.
So I was speaking when I first started my speaking career about the importance of marketing
to the emerging Hispanic market.
Again, this is 22 years ago.
And so this was all new, you know, and the census had just come out and now we could

(04:54):
quantify how big the Hispanic market was.
And you know, everybody wanted to, you know, reach this lucrative consumer group.
So I was doing a lot of presentations on how to market to US Hispanics.
And I did a very effective presentation for a client one time and she pulled me aside
afterwards and she said, that was great.
And we would like to have you back and have you do something again, but we don't just

(05:17):
value the Hispanic consumer.
We value the, you know, women consumers, black consumers, Asian consumers.
Do you have something broader than that?
And of course, when you're self-employed and someone wants to give you money, the answer
to every question is yes.
And so I said, well, yes, I, of course I have something like that.
And I didn't, but I had a year to do it.
And so I created this presentation that was like all about tapping into new markets that

(05:42):
might be different from what your core market is or whatever.
And I went to, you know, absolutely everything, you know, millennials and, you know, Gen Z
and this and that.
And then I was like, what do I call this sucker?
You know, like, I can't say like how to market to Hispanics and blacks and women and millennials.
And so I just came up with people not like you.

(06:05):
And they loved it.
They loved it.
I mean, it's kind of catchy.
I never intended it for it to be catchy.
It was just trying to think of a way to like encapsulate it all.
And that's how I came up with that.
And then it kind of took off.
That's amazing.
It's your brand now.
Yeah, it is.
And there are some real, for lack of a gentler term, thought police out there when it comes
to DEI.
Have you faced any pushback for not using the preferred DEI terminology?

(06:29):
And if so, how'd you respond?
No, I have.
That's an awesome question.
And I have never received pushback for that because the audiences that I've spoken to
and some of them are, in fact, diversity conferences, you know, they're conferences about DEI.
And what they like about my material is I do think broadly.
And I think people who are in that DEI space, whether they are HR executives, people in

(06:52):
culture executives, other professionals like me who are experts in this area, is the true
definition of diversity is somebody who's not like you, not just those, you know, five
pillars that I ticked off.
And so they embrace it fully.
I have never gotten any blowback from somebody who goes, I can't believe you're not using

(07:12):
diversity and equity and inclusion.
I'm all about it.
And that comes through in my presentations.
And in fact, those audiences actually come up to me afterwards and they're like, I just
I love the way you framed that up.
That is so powerful and it's broader and it should be broader.
I mean, it should be as broad as we can possibly be because it's people not like us, whatever

(07:35):
that is.
What do people normally think when they hear diversity, you know, diversity in the phrase
diversity, equity, inclusion, obviously evoke different responses from different people.
And what's it gonna take for people who are afraid of or hostile to DEI to see its value?
And at the same time, what's it gonna take for people who embrace it to understand and
accept those who don't?

(07:55):
So if I was even answering this question a year ago, I would give you a different answer,
right?
So the climate, the business climate, especially in the political climate has changed.
And sadly, I think the D word diversity, equity and inclusion has become a dirty word in politics.
It's become weaponized and it's sad because it really shouldn't be.

(08:18):
It is here.
It is amongst us.
I mean, we can't ignore it and it's not a bad thing.
It's actually a really good thing.
But so all the more reason that I'm actually just talking about people not like you, because
I don't want to alienate a potential person in the audience who's got a mindset that DEI
is woke or bad or something like that.

(08:39):
The reality is every one of us is working with people not like us every single day.
And that doesn't make an organization a bad organization or anything.
And in fact, it's been proven, it's been proven, there's in fact never been a study
that has disproved the value of a diverse team.
And when I say a diverse team, I'm talking about diversity of perspective and experience,

(09:01):
you know, not again, just color of skin, gender, age, et cetera.
And so it's pretty hard to argue with the facts of the value of DEI.
It's just that these days it's been, the phrase has been hijacked and often means something,

(09:23):
you know, woke or, you know, super liberal.
And it's really not, it's something that organizations of all sizes and all different types that
are either left-leaning, right-leaning or straight down the center, everybody is trying
to hire and grow their teams with different perspectives because they know the value

(09:45):
of those different perspectives.
You know, if we surround ourselves with people who are just like us, then there's never anybody
new at the table to say, what about this?
Or I have this perspective.
And so there's value in it.
I just, I think all the more reason to move away from DEI because people, because some

(10:07):
people have a very, very narrow mindset of that, that is also not correct.
And I don't mean to be dismissive or insulting to anyone who thinks that way.
It's just, that's not what DEI really is.
What DEI really is, is about different perspectives.
And one of the things that creates our different perspectives is who we are.
And then one of the things that is a key part of who we are is that envelope and all the

(10:32):
experiences that go with it.
I will never know what it's like to be a man.
All I know is what it's like to be a woman, you know?
And so I need the perspective of a man, let's say, to round out something that I might be
seeing in my way with this lens that looks like this, but what if I could broaden that
lens to that?
It's just that simple.
Well, and to your point at the beginning of your response, it's a shame that words like

(10:54):
diversity, the D word in the political arena are getting weaponized.
Yeah.
You know, it's going to be a buzzword of the day for whatever, whoever's at the bully pulpit
there.
Yep.
We are diversity generically and we're a nation built on immigrants.
So we are diverse from, you know, 249 years ago.
The get-go.

(11:14):
Right.
And so how it's become such a demonizing, weaponizing topic, word, phrase, whatever
it is, it's just astonishing because we've got the Statue of Liberty in New York Harbor,
bring us your tired, your poor, et cetera.
And it's just like, this is what we were built on.
And so we need to embrace it.
And that's why I love this, not like us concept because, you know, is it softer?

(11:35):
Sure.
But maybe that's what we need right now because everything is so harsh and so hard and so
in your face.
And it's more true.
I think.
Sure.
Absolutely.
And I think if I were to just say how to market or, you know, how to work with people who
are diverse, I don't think everybody has that lens of just any way you can be different
from me.

(11:57):
You know, I mean, a pessimist is different than an optimist.
A morning person is different than a night owl.
Someone I do a lot of speaking in the insurance industry.
And so they love this, this example.
I say, you know, someone who is risk averse is very different than someone who is a risk
taker.
Or someone who is in the accounting department is very different than someone who's in sales.

(12:21):
I mean, that is language that everybody can get behind and they go, oh yeah, okay, I never
thought about it that way.
And then we're starting to have a productive conversation.
And so all I want to do is, is have a productive conversation, Chris, about a really important
topic.
And if I've got to kind of move around and dodge around the D word to get there, I'll

(12:42):
do it because my, my goal is the outcome, you know, and, and if the language that we
use is a little more, if people are a little more accepting of that.
And I also think it, it turns a little bit of a light bulb on for them.
Like so many people will come up to me and they'll be like, I never thought of it that
way.
You know, I never thought about, you know, or even like North and South, you know, somebody

(13:05):
who's from rural Georgia is very different than someone who lives in Chicago, you know,
and, and there's just no refuting that.
So it kind of like takes the sting out of all of it and everybody goes, oh, okay, yeah.
People not like me.
All right.
Well, and I mean, the way you phrase it is, you know, someone in accounting is different
than somebody in sales.
It's to your point, much broader than just white, black, Hispanic, Asian, straight, not.

(13:31):
And so this is a very important topic.
So I, again, thrilled you're here today.
And Chris, somebody who's been working for 30 years is very different than somebody who's
been working for 90 days.
I mean, like you, you can just, you can take this in any Avenue you want and people go,
oh yeah.
So that doesn't mean the person who's only been working for 90 days doesn't have any

(13:52):
value to the team.
You just have to understand that they're going to be wildly different than somebody who has
30 years of experience in that.
And maybe as a follow up to that, setting aside that we're all individuals in the whole
quote, there's no one else like us line from a practical standpoint, is it fair to say
there are more people not like us than like us?
I think so.

(14:13):
I mean, I don't have any metrics on that, but I mean, I think, you know, whatever I
am, right.
Like, so I'm an extrovert, right.
And I'm a morning person and I'm a woman and I'm, you know, 63 years old and blah, blah,
blah.
Right.
All these things I can sort of identify about myself and, you know, I'm a task person.

(14:33):
I like to check things off my list.
There's probably far more people who don't line up with those things that I just rattled
off than do.
And so, you know, yeah, the answer to your question is, yeah, there's far more people
who are probably not like us than like us.
And that's another reason to not just stay in the bubble of people like you.

(14:54):
I mean, it's really easy to do that because it's so easy to get along with people that
you just click with and you get them and they get you and you're like, yeah, we're both
like get it done, people.
Let's knock things off our list.
And somebody else who's a procrastinator might drive us crazy, but maybe they're really good
at something else and we need that.
You know, I'm especially fascinated by your books on crafting the customer experience

(15:18):
and marketing to people not like you.
And we're going to dive into those topics later in our conversation, but we have to
talk first about the elephant in the room, which you touched on earlier.
And that's how the new president seems to have instantaneously and dramatically turned
diversity, equity and inclusion upside down and inside out.
You've recently released your fourth bestseller.
It's time to talk about race at work.
Does Donald Trump have it out for you or is there something bigger going on?

(15:41):
Nobody's ever asked me that question in quite that way, but I would say he doesn't have
it out for me personally, but he definitely has a platform and his platform is to squash
DEI.
I truly believe that ... I got to say this diplomatically.

(16:04):
I truly believe that it is less about how he actually feels about it and more about
throwing red meat to his base.
Because I think his base thinks it's BS and it's just hogwash and it's discrimination

(16:25):
in some form sometimes and we don't need this and all that kind of stuff.
So I think he's very good at throwing red meat to his base.
He really is.
I mean, honestly, he's a brilliant marketer.
And so whether it's immigration and making immigrants scary to people, which is why we

(16:47):
need to get rid of them or something like that, I think he's very good at knowing what
his base wants to hear and he gives it to them and that makes him a smart marketer.
I don't agree with any of it, but it makes him a brilliant marketer.
And I would bet that much of what he says around DEI is just, again, a campaign slogan

(17:13):
and it's words that have been proven to be effective and if you're a politician, when
you land on something that clicks with your voters, run with it.
I get the business of the politics.
So he's not doing me any favors right now and he's not doing a lot of companies and
I think that's why they're backing down.
I mean, sadly, I think that's why so many of these companies are reeling in their DEI

(17:38):
efforts, but they're not really doing that.
They're actually continuing with them.
Maybe they're spending a little bit more money, but they're calling them other things.
They're calling them culture and inclusion because nobody has a problem with culture
and inclusion.
Well, I've got a surprise for you.
We've got President Trump calling in right now to have a debate with you.

(17:59):
Okay.
Bring it.
I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
I would actually find that really fascinating.
I would not shy away from that.
I would be like, okay, let me run a brush through my hair here.
Our next show, we'll bring him in next time.
Please do.
Kelly, we're seeing a number of big companies, banks like Wells Fargo, retailers like Target,
suspending or killing their DEI programs.

(18:22):
What's your message to the corporate giants you've worked with, and if someone owns a
small or medium-sized business, what should they do now?
Well, the first thing is I don't think that any of the companies that I've read about,
including the ones that you've just listed, have actually killed their DEI programs.
They have maybe reduced them, they've reigned in some of the budgets and maybe some of the
titles and things like that, but they're still pushing forward on culture and inclusion.

(18:51):
What I think is really sad is that leaders in the industry, like Target, who did a really
big push for pride years ago, setting the standard up here for mega retailers to say,
this is a holiday and this is something that our customers want and we need to celebrate

(19:12):
this.
I think it's really sad that they have caved to the political pressure that's out there.
At the end of the day, Chris, it's all about the almighty dollar, and yet they haven't
killed these initiatives.
They are reframing them and being quieter about them.

(19:36):
I think it's number one to duck down under the fray.
They're kind of in the foxhole, but they know the value of it.
No business is ever going to put money into something that loses money and loses money
and loses money.
All these organizations that have had DEI efforts for the last 10 years, let's say,

(19:57):
or more, they didn't do that because they want to hold hands and sing, we are the world.
They're doing it because it makes money and it makes good business sense.
Even from a talent draw, they get more talented people who come to work for their organizations.
Dialing it back, I think, is sad because they're caving to outside pressure, but they are not
eliminating it.

(20:19):
I do wish that many of them stood firm in the case of this pressure, but it does show
you where their heart is and their heart is with their wallet, and that's business.
I don't like it, but I understand it, and I think they're making a mistake.

(20:41):
I think, here's what it is, if you value diversity and inclusion, and I really want to talk about
the inclusion part.
It's not just about adding different people.
It's about making sure that you're garnering the perspectives that they bring and the experience.

(21:02):
If you value that, and if you value that enough to put a stake in the ground before
and say, we believe in this, then your values are not situational.
Your values are your values, and they should not be situational.
That's the part that breaks my heart, is that if Target valued this one day or Wells Fargo

(21:22):
valued this, not just one day, but for years, then all of a sudden, they're like, oh, not
anymore.
What can I count on them to be about?
What do they value that is unnegotiable and not situational?
If I look at my values and I think about integrity, my integrity is not situational.

(21:46):
I apply it at all times to the best of my ability, or compassion, or whatever it is.
These are values and truth, things like that.
Truth is not situational.
Truth is truth.
That's, I think, the hardest part for me to swallow about in all this, is I don't know

(22:08):
what some of these companies then actually stand for.
As a consumer, if I want to make a choice, I want to spend my money with the good guys.
But if I thought you were a good guy, and right now, you're reeling back on your values,
I don't know whether I agree with that or not.
I'm still bothered by the fact that you can just change your values.

(22:29):
Maybe we can go a little bit more granular in terms of pulling back or reining in, for
lack of a better word, these DEI programs.
What does that exactly mean?
Is it their employee resource groups?
Is it their hiring process?
All of the above?
It's typically not the hiring process because they understand the value of diverse perspectives.
It's the really visible stuff.

(22:49):
It's the ERG.
It's the DEI summit that they might have had.
It's some of the sponsorships that they might have had.
They just don't want to be as visible, Chris.
A sponsorship is a really visible thing.
Again, if you're Target or Wells Fargo or whatever, you're going, we're sponsoring this
big event, then you make yourself a target for the people who don't want that.

(23:14):
Internally, what we're hearing is it's almost business as usual because they do understand
and appreciate the value that diverse perspectives bring to a team and diverse experience.
That's where it's at, but they're just being quieter about it on the really external things.
Maybe as a follow-up to that, in this apparent new reality, how can organizations that still

(23:37):
want to implement diversity initiatives do so without facing a backlash?
I think anybody could face a backlash about anything if you really want to.
Look at Chick-fil-A.
Look at Chick-fil-A.
For years, they got a backlash because they weren't open on Sundays, but again, their
values are not situational.

(23:58):
They've had hundreds of consultants that have come in and said, do you realize how much
more money you could make if you were open on Sunday?
You're forfeiting that business to Wendy's and McDonald's and Taco Bell or whatever,
and they're like, we don't care because that's what we believe.
I respect that.

(24:19):
I think it's about being true to your core values and staying the course on that.
I think if you're a small business, then you can say things like, we appreciate and respect
all customers.

(24:41):
All means all.
You can say diversity without ever saying the D word.
You can say all.
That's what a lot of businesses and organizations do.
They'll say, everyone is welcome.
We appreciate all customers.
They're using different language, but they're putting the welcome mat out for everyone.

(25:02):
If you don't want blowback, then there's other ways to say things, and the rest of us will
actually see that and hear that for what it is.
One aspect of the diversity conversation is that people are afraid of saying the wrong
thing at work or having what they say taken the wrong way.
As a result, you said that what they do is just say nothing.

(25:22):
What's wrong with saying nothing?
Saying nothing doesn't move the business forward.
I think, first of all, it is difficult to have conversations when you don't know what
to say and you're afraid of the HR police or whatever, or the consequences.
In some organizations, the consequences are very real.
The risk is real.
The problem with not saying anything is you're not fully communicating.

(25:45):
For example, if you and I disagree on something and we work together, we're working on a project,
and we disagree, well, we ought to be able to talk about that because it's important
to the project.
If I'm afraid of talking to you about that and saying, tell me more about that, then
we're just going to end up at an impasse, and we're not actually going to understand

(26:08):
the full picture and the context of what has to be considered for something to be successful.
I understand it, but I do think the problem with it is that it blocks progress in business,
and it does not move the ball down the field, and it's a conversation ender.
I feel like in business, we should never end the conversation.

(26:29):
We should always be able to talk, especially if we don't agree.
That's absolutely when I need to lean into it more and go, Chris, tell me how you see
it.
I'm not understanding your perspective.
Share with me.
There's nothing bad that can happen about that.
Nobody ever died of a conversation about differences in views.

(26:52):
It's really important.
That's what good CEOs do.
Good CEOs actually do a lot more listening than talking, and they work with their people,
whether it's their top team or the rank and file or all employees, whatever, and have
town halls and stuff, and they do a lot of listening because they're like, tell me what
I need to know.
Tell me what I need to hear.
They solicit it.

(27:13):
Well, it's the old phrase, God gave me two ears and one mouth, and so I'll keep my mouth
shut and listen.
Yeah, but one of the things I do is give people the script because they truly don't know what
to say, and they're totally afraid of just trying to clunk their way through it.
One of the things I talk about is eliminating the phrase agree to disagree from your vocabulary

(27:34):
because I was taught that as a child.
My parents said, you know, if you don't agree with someone, just say, let's agree to disagree,
and it's a very polite phrase, and it'll never get you in trouble or anything like that,
but again, it's not good for business because if I say to you, Chris, let's agree to disagree,
and you say, sure, this conversation's over, and we both know it, and that's not where

(27:56):
we want to be.
So what I teach people to say instead is just lean into it and say, Chris, I see it differently.
I see it differently is not combative.
I'm not picking a fight with you.
I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right.
I'm just, I'm not even trying to persuade you over my point of view.
It's a simple declarative statement.
I see it differently, and what'll happen is when you say that or someone else says that,

(28:22):
and the other person goes, well, tell me how you see it, and then we're having a conversation
that's actually going somewhere, and it's very beneficial because if you can tell me
a little bit more about how you see it, I'm going to have a greater understanding of your
perspective and where you're coming from on this.
We might not still agree, but I'm going to know more, and that's all we're after in business

(28:45):
is just making informed decisions and understanding other perspectives and balancing all of that
into initiatives and decisions.
And it's time to talk about race at work.
You write about how to have hard conversations.
It's one thing to get instructions on how to have hard conversations and quite another

(29:05):
to actually have them.
Bridge that gap to give people the courage to speak up.
Is it something we should do one-on-one?
What are your thoughts?
I think it depends on the organization and the situation you find yourself in.
If it's one-on-one and you and I are having these hard conversations, and let's just say
again it's about perspective, like I really don't get you, I really don't get you, you

(29:27):
don't get me, there's some tension there or whatever, I might just peel back the layers
of the onion and just start with something like, look, just tell me about yourself.
Tell me about yourself.
What do I need to know about you that's important?
What I like about that is people will tell you what they think is important.
I mean, they might start with something like, well, I started out at this company when I

(29:49):
was, you know, 25 and then I, you know, they might go into something like that, but they
also might say something like, you know, I was born in a small town in Kentucky and then
I got to go to college in a big city and it rocked my world or, you know, you never know
where it's going to go.
But I think the more that we can actually find out about each other and maybe some of
the things that shaped us, but then when you're actually having those difficult conversations

(30:13):
and you're trying to find the right language or whatever, I mean, again, using things like
I see it differently, or if somebody's sharing a perspective that you really don't get, like
maybe you don't agree with it and you have this sort of trigger reaction of like, well,
that's not right or whatever.
Try to recognize those emotions or whatever, and in that moment, lean into it and say,

(30:37):
tell me more about that.
Because the tell me more about that is where you're going to find out how this person thinks
and how they make decisions and how they came to the beliefs or the understanding or the
perspective that they have.
And the other thing I think that's really important to know is perspective is never
wrong.

(30:57):
It's your perspective.
It's how you see things.
So you can't tell me that if I'm an optimist and I look at, you know, things as like generally
in a cheerful way, and I'm not, you know, I'm not naive.
I mean, I do know that it's a dark world out there sometimes, but I tend to look on the
glass half full rather than half empty.
And you can't tell me I'm wrong for looking at it that way.

(31:20):
It's the way I am.
Any more than I could say to somebody, well, you know, you're wrong for always thinking
about doom and gloom.
It's how they see things, you know?
And so I think that if we can say something like, you know, tell me more about that.
Tell me how you see this.
What bothers you about this or what concerns you?
Like concern is a great word because it's not a loaded word.

(31:41):
What concerns you about this?
And what you find a lot is that people are concerned about the outcome of something and
how it reflects on them.
And then that is actually something that we can dig into and go, okay, if you're concerned
about the outcome, how do we talk about making the outcome as good as it can possibly be?
Not just for you, but for the organization that we're working within.

(32:03):
Does that make sense?
Absolutely.
And I love how you're phrasing it to get them to engage with you further.
What concerns you?
Help me understand.
Keep that conversation going.
The dialogue is then presumably the longer the talk or the more you talk, you're going
to figure it out and come to some sort of agreement or understanding.
Yeah.
And I think, exactly.

(32:23):
And that's all, I mean, we don't have to agree.
We just need to understand.
So once I understand why you think something, that might open up my mind to kind of go,
okay, well, you know, Chris brought up a good point.
He sees it this way.
I never thought of that.
There's some validity to that.
I wonder if there's something that we could do that mixes what Chris thinks about it with

(32:44):
what I think we should do.
And you know, that's how you get to compromise.
That's how you get to real collaboration, really.
So yeah, I mean, I don't think these are terrible conversations.
I just think that people don't have the right words and they're so afraid of saying the
wrong thing that they just say nothing.
That's a tragedy.

(33:05):
Can you tell my wife I made a good point?
Yes.
Help her understand.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Chris rocks, just so you know.
It's my new bumper sticker.
While there's fear around saying or doing the wrong thing when interacting with people
not like us, there's also tremendous opportunity for growth and improvement.
Again, maybe as a follow up, how do we get ourselves in that mindset of moving away from

(33:27):
fear and toward the potential of something good?
I think it's recognizing, first of all, in sort of a scholarly way that different perspectives
are good for business.
I mean, that's a truism.
It's a truth.
And the greatest, most innovative companies have always fostered that, whether they were

(33:52):
conscious about it or not.
They've hired all different kinds of people who think differently, and that's how they
come up with innovative products and services.
They also do a lot of listening.
And the thing I like about listening, and this comes down to consumer research, consumer
research is nothing more than asking questions of people and then listening to their answers.

(34:12):
And the thing that you don't do in consumer research is tell the people that are giving
you intel that they're wrong.
So if you're Tyson Chicken, and you're doing a focus group, and you're talking to people
who cook with chicken, and you're asking, how many times a week do you eat chicken?
And then they go two times.
And then you don't go, well, that's stupid of you.
You should be eating chicken four times.

(34:33):
I mean, you don't ever demonize your audience, and you listen to people.
And this is a key part of marketing, is that we can't get those consumer insights unless
we talk to people and listen.
So if you listen, and you gather different perspectives, that's what leads to aha.
So I'll give you an example, a business example that was, I live in Colorado, and the ski

(34:56):
industry is like a billion dollar industry here, right?
I mean, the entire state's economic engine depends on skiing.
Well, years ago, the ski industry was seeing a decline in skiers for two reasons.
Boomers were getting older and had hip replacements and knee replacements and stuff, and they're

(35:17):
not skiing anymore because they're afraid of injury.
Or maybe their doctor told them not to do that after a knee replacement or something.
Younger skiers were not skiing because they're like, that's my parent's sport.
I want to snowboard.
But snowboarding was not allowed on the ski slopes.

(35:37):
So they had to, the boarders had to go into the back country to snowboard.
So the slopes were getting skinnier and skinnier and skinnier with the number of skiers, obviously,
you know, financially hitting and hurting the industry.
Well, the only way they even found out about this was because they actually started talking
to young people.
There's not much you can do to persuade older people to risk another injury.

(36:00):
So they kind of went, okay, we have to replace these skiers with younger skiers.
And they started talking to them and going, how come you don't ski?
And they were going, well, because I board and I'm not allowed to do that on your ski
slopes.
And then they also found out that the price was a huge deterrent, the ski lift tickets,
the equipment, the this, the that.
And so they went to work on this.
That is an insight that they would never have if they hadn't just talked to, in focus groups,

(36:26):
lots and lots of younger skiers and asked, what do you want?
And so they started working with equipment manufacturers for less expensive rentals and
doing passes that give you a big discount at the sporting goods store.
So your ski pass gets you, you know, 25% off discount and stuff.
The whole community of skiing worked together and completely revitalized the ski industry

(36:50):
because they listened to what younger skiers had to say and they adapted.
That's insight you can't get anywhere else.
You can't get that information if you're not talking to people.
And so I feel like the listening part is really important.
One thing I do want to also say, though, is if you're listening, I have had a number of

(37:10):
friends and colleagues of mine who have, who represent, let's say, a diverse consumer group.
Okay.
So whether they're a black woman or let's say they're a gay man, my best guy friend
is a very out gay man.
And he's very comfortable talking, you know, openly about his perspectives and stuff.

(37:33):
But one of the things that he doesn't like and resents is when at his team, at his office,
they're talking about an initiative and someone will say, well, Cliff, as the gay man in the
room, how do you feel about this?
And what it does is, yes, he's a very out gay man.
He'll tell you that.
So it's not a secret.
But what that does by shining a spotlight on that person in that way is it's creating

(37:57):
an otherness.
It's basically saying you're not like the rest of us.
And I have a friend who's a black woman, too, and she's like, I'm so tired of people in
a meeting going, so as the black woman in the room, well, how do you think?
So here's the better way, because I don't believe, Chris, that I can give anybody a

(38:18):
don't without giving them a do.
So you can't just tell people don't do that, then they're gonna be like, well, what do
I do?
So those are valid ways to probe, but not that way.
So if you're actually trying to garner a broader point of view from different kinds of people,
then what a leader can say in a meeting is, does anyone have any business or life experience

(38:43):
to share with the group that would help us do a better job?
Does anyone have any business or life experience that would help us do a better job?
And that way, no one is having a spotlight shined on their perceived otherness.
And at the same time, you're opening it up for everybody to chime in, which is, again,

(39:04):
what we want is collaboration.
I love how you spun that.
I spun it out the right way, I apologize, but the way you rephrased and paraphrased
that, again, openness, collectiveness, all of that.
So I'm learning a lot today, so I appreciate that.
Your book spells out something you call the starting method.
What is the starting method and why is that important?

(39:27):
I'm going to have to remember what starting stands for.
I don't have it in front of me.
The starting method is my method of how a leader who wants to do better and be better,
and that's another phrase, okay?
That's another phrase that I really like to use because it's not political, it's not woke,
it's not anything.
If you're just starting with, do you want to do better and be better as an organization,

(39:50):
the heads will not, right?
So one of the ways to do that is to garner the input of your teams and your employees
and their diverse perspectives.
That's where the magic is at, and it's free.
It doesn't cost anything to talk to people.
So the starting method is by understanding, you know, S-T-A-R-T-I-N-G, is starting with

(40:10):
literally the idea of this is a strategy, okay?
It's a business tool, right?
And then T is for talking, right?
Just start the conversation and, oh my gosh, A is for acknowledging, acknowledging the
people who have the different perspectives in the room and on the team and acknowledging

(40:31):
that maybe we haven't done as good of a job as we could have in the past of making sure
that we get to hear all voices.
R is for respect.
You don't have to agree with everybody.
You're never going to agree with everybody that you work with, but you do have to have
respect personally and professionally.
So respect is at the core of any conversations that we have, including any questions that

(40:51):
we have or any, you know, trying to elicit input and things like that.
It's not creating otherness.
It's about respect.
And T is for training because people do need to be trained in this.
I mean, this is a great conversation, and there's a little bit of training that's gone
in here because I've given some do's and don'ts and some phrases.

(41:13):
But if you're truly trying to bring your team along to have better conversations, especially
about the things that they're afraid of talking about, or they just don't know how, they don't
know the right words and they want to know the right words, number one, they're hungry
for this.
But number two, teach them.
Teach them to, you know, you can teach them to say, I see it differently.
You can teach them to say, tell me more about that.

(41:36):
Or how did you come up with that?
And then ING.
Wow.
It's been a while.
I'm sorry.
Oh, I is for invest, you know, just continue to invest in this.
It can be dollars, but it can just be time.
In other words, you don't have a meeting where you go, we're going to do a better job of
garnering everybody's perspective.

(41:57):
And then you walk away from that meeting, go, all right, we did that, you know.
And so it's about an ongoing conversation.
And N is for networking, making sure that you're always talking to different kinds of
people.
And I have worked really hard to broaden my group of friends and my business colleagues
because number one, it's so interesting.
And number two, I've been exposed to so many things that I would never have been exposed

(42:20):
to.
And number three, it just makes me a better business person because now I've got some
insights to share with other people when I'm talking about, you know, I have a friend who
went through this exact same thing two years ago and here's what they did or, you know,
whatever.
And then G is keep going and setting goals.
You know, I think if you're a leader, it is about making sure that you're putting a stake

(42:41):
in the ground and saying, what are we trying to do here?
Again, we're not just going to sit, you know, and hold hands and sing, we are the world.
What are we trying to do?
Are we trying to get more active voices around the table?
Are we trying to actually penetrate a new market that we haven't really ever explored?
Are we trying to recruit a broader swath of people with, you know, broader experience?

(43:03):
You know, what are the goals?
And keep going.
Thank you for remembering what starting is because I didn't have it in my notes.
I couldn't have helped you there.
Sorry.
Kelly, you grew up in a very upscale, very white Milwaukee suburb.
Do people ever ask you, what does this woman know about diversity, equity, inclusion?
And if so, what do you tell them?
For sure.

(43:24):
I mean, obviously, again, I'm not what people think when they think that a diversity expert
is going to show up on stage looking like me, you know, and I get it.
So what I tell people is just because I'm white does not make me unqualified to be an
expert in this area.
I've studied it and I've been doing it for 22 years, long before DEI was ever a phrase

(43:47):
coined.
I mean, nobody was talking about this 22 years ago.
But also, you know, just because you are a gay man or just because you are a person of
color or just because you are disabled does not make you an expert on diversity either.
What it does is it makes you an expert on your own perspective and that's valid, but
it doesn't make you an expert on the business of diversity, you know, the discipline of

(44:09):
diversity.
So framing it as people not like you, I come back to my marketing training because long
before I was ever doing this, I was working for global ad agencies.
And one of the things that we do in global ad agencies is try to figure out where the
new customer is going to be found, right?
You've got your core customers.

(44:29):
You're not successful without them, but how much more successful could you be if you can
get the people that you're not getting, but you could be?
And usually that's rooted in research and usually the research reveals some consumer
insights that might be very specific to a certain group.
For example, women read more customer reviews and testimonials online than men, far more.

(44:51):
And they put a lot of stock in them and they put stock, they put real stock in what other
women say.
So if I'm reading a review and it says that the review was written by Jennifer B. in Minneapolis,
I'm going to look at that and go, you know what?
She's telling me the truth because we think our sisters don't ever lie to us, right?
And so there's insights absolutely everywhere.

(45:14):
And I come at it from the discipline of business, not from a personal experience of, you know,
I don't know what it's like to be a man.
I don't know what it's like to be disabled.
I'm not a person of color.
I'm not, you know, bisexual or gay.
And so it's like, I don't know these things and I will never pretend to know those things.
But what I do know is the business of diversity and how to make business better with diverse

(45:39):
teams and why it's important.
And that's what I bring to the table.
And it's funny, if I can tell one quick story, do we have time?
One quick story.
Absolutely.
Please.
So a couple of years ago, I was asked to speak to the Chicago Association of Realtors and
it was their very first diversity conference.
OK, so probably 200 people there, you know, really nice size conference, not too big,

(46:03):
not too small.
Goldilocks.
And I'm the keynote speaker and I walk in and I would say two thirds of the room is
black.
Another quarter of the room is gay.
And the remaining percentage, don't make me do this, geometry wise, is, you know, women

(46:25):
or, you know, other people of other colors, et cetera, whatever.
And I'm like the white woman, you know, who's going to get up there and talk about this.
And so I thought, OK, I have to overcome the objection that they're too polite to say,
but they're going to be thinking, which is when I take the stage.
And so I started with, you know, I know I'm not what you expect when you think of someone
who's going to come and talk to you about diversity.

(46:47):
So I named the elephant in the room before they could.
Right.
And so I was like, I know I'm not what you expect when you think about this.
And I said, but I am an expert in this and I've written four books on this and my works
are widely published and featured.
And if you truly believe in diversity, equity and inclusion, then you have to include people

(47:11):
like me.
And all of them were like, you know.
And so this woman came up to me afterwards and she said, you know, when your foot hit
the stage, I tuned out.
She said, I tuned out.
What is this white woman going to tell me about diversity?
And she said, and then you started talking and I tuned back in and I came at it again
from not some standpoint of I know these things personally or have experienced these things,

(47:34):
but from this scholastic academic business side of it, which was a different perspective
than what most people get at a diversity conference.
And it went really, really, really well.
And I thought, you know, this this is diversity is you're getting a different perspective.
But you know, it's just I know I'm not what I expect, what people expect, but I'll be

(47:56):
honest with you, Chris, to 95% of the audiences that I speak to are majority white.
And I think one of the things that works for me in this space is that I look like they
do and they're okay with that.
Not that they would reject somebody else, but they can't reject what I'm saying if I

(48:16):
look like them.
If somebody is up there who's Asian or black or brown or disabled or gay or whatever, they're
going to go, well, of course, you're going to say that you're the gay guy.
Or of course, you're going to say that you're brown or you're Asian or whatever it is.
Of course, you're going to say that.
Or of course, you're going to say that you're disabled.
But if I'm up there and I'm none of those things, I'm like, look, this is a business
opportunity and there's data that shows that this is important and it works and you're

(48:41):
probably already doing some of it or whatever.
They can't dismiss me.
So how'd you go from working for global ad agencies to being a DEI expert?
I was really burned out.
So there's a joke in the advertising industry that says it's a 20 year business.
You get in in your 20s and you get out in your 40s because you're just fried.

(49:04):
And I found that to be the case.
I was really, really tired and fried.
It's a hard driving industry.
And also I was doing very, very well.
I was in leadership positions, VP, SVP, etc.
And I was getting further and further away from what I actually loved, which was advertising.
The higher you go, it's just more about managing people instead of doing the real work.

(49:25):
So I was really burned out.
It wasn't fun for me anymore.
And I thought, OK, but I'm a one trick pony.
This is all I've ever done is advertising.
So what's my new trick?
And I started doing a lot of research and reading about how to find your purpose and
all this kind of stuff.
And I read one paragraph in one book.

(49:47):
I read a bunch of things, but I read one paragraph in one book that got me here.
And it said, if you really want to find out what your natural gifts are, because most
of us can be successful if we really lean into those natural gifts.
Think about every time you've ever gotten an attaboy or an attagirl.
And what were you doing?
So I really gave that some deep thought.

(50:09):
Like I didn't just think about that for two seconds ago.
I mean, I had to really think.
And over the course of several days, I came up with, it's always when I've done a presentation
and a client has come up to me afterwards and said, that was fantastic or wow, you know,
you really opened my eyes to something or you took a very complex concept or issue and

(50:31):
you made it really accessible for me, like you really explained it well.
So I thought, ultimately, I have a gift for taking complex information and in 50 minutes,
condensing it to a meeting for the VP of marketing or whatever.
And then I thought, there's only two things I can think of to do with this.
One is to teach, because really what I am as a teacher, right?

(50:52):
I could go, you know, work for a college, become an adjunct professor or something like
that, or I could be a professional speaker.
So I just decided to be a professional speaker.
And I started with how to market to US Hispanics, because that was the biggest topic in marketing
and business.
And that's what I knew.
I was trained in that.

(51:13):
The last ad agency I worked for was a multicultural agency that specialized in Hispanic marketing
in Texas.
So I knew that.
And I knew that, I knew that, I knew, you know, the opportunity, I knew how to do that.
I knew how to guide clients on this.
That's what we had been doing.
And there was a tremendous demand for that topic at that time.
And so that's what launched my career.
And then it was another client, like I said, in the beginning, who said, you know, we value

(51:37):
all customer groups.
Can you do something broader?
And then boom, off to the races.
And here we are, 22 years later.
As someone who was an adjunct professor, you chose the right path.
I have some friends who are adjunct professors, and they absolutely love it.
But they said, there is no money in it.
You have to just do it because you want to.
And you love it.
And you love it.
Exactly.

(51:58):
And I may do that at some point in time.
But I'm still learning.
Exactly.
Kelly, we have just a few minutes left.
I mentioned the titles of your books earlier on, but would you share all four of them with
us again and where we can find them?
Sure.
So all four can be found on anywhere online where books are sold.
Obviously, the big behemoths like Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
But I value all of our independent booksellers as well.

(52:19):
And so, you know, here in Colorado, we have an independent bookseller.
And, you know, there's Powell in Portland and things like that.
So the names of my books are How to Market to People Not Like You, Crafting the Customer
Experience for People Not Like You, How to Work with People Not Like You, How to Work
with and Lead People Not Like You.

(52:40):
Gee, it's this one that's like right behind me here.
And my latest one is It's Time to Talk About Race at Work, Every Leader's Guide to Making
Progress on Diversity, Equity and Inclusion.
So if you just put into a Google search, you know, Kelly MacDonald books, they'll come
up wherever books are sold.

(53:00):
And if people want you to come speak, where can they find you?
They can email me at kelly, K-E-L-L-Y, at mcdonaldmarketing.com.
And I'm McDonald like the hamburgers, not like the farmer.
So I'm a Mc, not a Mac.
So mcdonaldmarketing.com, kelly at mcdonaldmarketing.com.

(53:21):
You can connect with me on LinkedIn.
I am kellycmcdonald on LinkedIn, C as in cat.
My middle name is Christine.
There's a million Kelly MacDonalds and I'll come up that way.
And yeah, or, you know, you can call me 214-929-7700.
That's my cell number.
Call me or text me.

(53:41):
I'm self-employed.
I love to talk to people about working for them.
Kelly, Christine, McDonald.
Thank you so much for being with us today.
I really appreciate your time and your insights.
Thank you, Chris.
It's been a great conversation.
I've enjoyed it.
No, it's been a lot of fun.
I learned a lot.
So thank you.
I'm Chris Meek.
We're out of time.
We'll see you next week.
Same time, same place.

(54:02):
Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.
Thanks for tuning in to Next Steps Forward.
Be sure to join Chris Meek for another great show next Tuesday at 10 a.m.
Pacific time and 1 p.m.
Eastern time on the Voice America Empowerment Channel.
This week, make things happen in your life.

(54:28):
I'll see you then.
Bye.