July 1, 2025 • 53 mins
In this moving episode of Next Steps Forward, Dr. Chris Meek is joined by brothers Patrick and James Dowdell - two men whose lives were forever changed on September 11, 2001, when they lost their father, FDNY Lieutenant Kevin Dowdell. Patrick and James share how that moment of tragedy inspired lives of extraordinary service. Patrick went on to graduate from West Point, serve as a combat platoon leader in Iraq, and lead operations in Afghanistan as a captain. James, just 17 at the time of 9/11, later followed in his father’s footsteps by joining the FDNY and now serves as a lieutenant, continuing the legacy of bravery and public service.
Through heartfelt stories of loss, leadership, and resilience, the Dowdell brothers reflect on the values instilled in them by their parents, how their father's sacrifice continues to shape their path, and what it means to live a life of purpose in honor of those we've lost. Join them for an unforgettable conversation about courage, commitment, and the enduring power of family legacy.
About James and Patrick Dowdell: Brothers James and Patrick Dowdell grew up as the sons of a New York City firefighter and a public-school teacher, who instilled service and leadership as the core of their life missions. Following the tragic loss of their father, FDNY Lieutenant Kevin Dowdell, on September 11, 2001, Patrick and James joined the rescue and recovery efforts at Ground Zero. The following year, Patrick was accepted into the United States Military Academy at West Point. He was commissioned as a second lieutenant when he graduated in 2006 and served a one-year deployment as a platoon leader in Iraq beginning in 2008 during combat operations in Baghdad. Promoted to captain, he deployed to Afghanistan in 2010, overseeing mission planning and combat operations in Farah Province. James Dowdell was a 17 year old high school senior when he participated in the search and recovery efforts at the World Trade Center site. He began his formal FDNY career on Ladder 174 in Brooklyn. James was promoted to the rank of lieutenant in January on what would have been his father’s 70th birthday. James Dowdell is also a sought-after public speaker who draws upon the invaluable lessons he learned from his father’s legacy to inspire audiences with insights into service, resilience, and the enduring impact of family and duty.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
There are few things that make people successful. Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some time to get there. How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you? Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek. Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward. Now here is Chris Meek.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hello. Welcome to this week's episode of Next Steps Forward, and I'm your host, Chris Meek. As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us. Next Steps Forward is committed to helping others achieve more than ever while experiencing greater personal empowerment and wellbeing, and our guests today embody all those qualities. Soldiers James and Patrick Dottle grew up as the sons of a New York City firefighter and a public school teacher who instilled service and leadership as the core of their life missions. Following the tragic loss of their father, FDNY Lieutenant Kevin Dottle, on September 11th, 2001, Patrick and James joined the rescue and recovery efforts at Ground Zero. The following year, Patrick was accepted into the United States Military Academy at West Point. He was commissioned as a second lieutenant when he graduated in 2006 and served a one-year deployment as a platoon leader in Iraq, beginning in 2008, during combat operations in Baghdad. Promoted to captain, he deployed to Afghanistan in 2010, overseeing mission planning and combat operations in Farah province. James Dottle was a 17-year-old high school senior when he participated in the search and recovery efforts at the World Trade Center site. He began his formal FDNY career on Ladder 174 in Brooklyn. James was promoted to the rank of lieutenant in January on what would have been his father's 70th birthday. James Dottle is also a sought-after public speaker who draws upon the invaluable lessons he learned from his father's legacy to inspire audiences with insights into service, resilience, and the enduring impact of family and duty. James and Patrick Dottle, welcome to Next Steps Forward.
(01:58):
Speaker3: Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
No, thank you. And it's an honor to meet you both. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while, so appreciate your time here. Gentlemen, we're all shaped by our parents, whether they're present or absent, but your lives have been so indelibly influenced by your parents that I can't imagine starting our conversation anywhere else but there. Patrick, you were a freshman at Iona College, but applied to West Point. You're home the weekend before 9-11. Take us through those last few days with your dad.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Sure. Yeah, so we're a very, very close family and grew up in a tight-knit community here in New York. And yeah, I had applied to West Point in 2001 and was wait-listed, so I didn't get in. And yeah, I subsequently applied to Iona and was accepted. So I was in my freshman year, had just moved in. My parents dropped me off, and all the freshman year kind of jitters, but also some excitement. Iona is only about an hour and a half from where we grew up, so not super far away. So James's birthday is actually September 10th, which was Monday of that year. So came home that weekend really to kind of do a little birthday party for him, have dinner, was learning how to do my own laundry and all that good stuff, so home-cooked meal. So I was only up there for a couple of weeks and came home. And yeah, we had a nice normal weekend. I was actually beginning my re-application process. My dad was very disciplined in what, you know, did you keep track of all the things you needed to do? Did you send this letter in? Where are we at? He had me write it all in a notebook, it's kind of how he structured his organizational skills. And I was going through that with him that weekend, here's the things I got to do to kind of reapply. And so yeah, he dropped me off that Sunday after dinner, and it was a normal goodbye. Like I'll see you soon, I'll talk to you. He was going to work that Monday, work at a 24, so work Monday into Tuesday, which was the 11th, so obviously was working that morning. And yeah, it was a nice normal, you know, like love you, see you soon, and dropped me off and off I went. So yeah, nothing unusual, right? We didn't really know what was coming in those next 24 hours.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
And what motivated you to want to attend West Point and pursue a military career?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Well, we used to go up to West Point, so I'm a bagpiper and James is a drummer, and we've been doing it since we were kids. We grew up in a kind of an Irish American neighborhood here in New York. So my dad was into Irish music and the culture. My mom's of Italian heritage, thankfully she was the cook in the family. But yeah, so from a young age, we were exposed to, you know, Irish music and things like that. There's a local pipe band that was giving lessons, so went and signed up and started to learn and always took to it. We used to go to West Point every summer for the military tattoo, they called it, which a whole bunch of pipe bands get together and we'd play on Trophy Point. I remember being up there and seeing cadets walking around and thinking it was pretty cool. I was a G.I. Joe guy and, you know, played Army and stuff. It was like I got exposed to it and said, maybe give this a shot. My dad thought it was cool. And I was like, you should give it a go and maybe apply when you get out of high school. So I did and never thought I would even, you know, that I would be in the running or get accepted. But when I got close, it was like, hey, maybe you should give this another shot. You were right there.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
And we're going to talk about both your musical prowess later in the show, so I appreciate you giving us a little sneak preview into that. James, you've said that your dad would always tell you guys that he'd responded to a ton of fires and emergencies. He'd always find the time to say, you might see this, but I'm OK. When your mom told you that she still hadn't heard from your dad on September 12th, you knew it wasn't a good sign. How long did it take for each of you to process that he was gone?
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Yeah, it was back in, you know, when we didn't have the communication devices we had today, right? The cell phones, we didn't have that instant communication. So, you know, when we were leaving the city, even when we were getting, I had to get on the ferry and go to Staten Island with a family friend, because really the only way out of old Manhattan that day was by boat. And so we get to, when I get to our friend's house, I called my mother and she was just getting home at the time. She said, you know, we hadn't, she hadn't talked to my father. But you know, it was still kind of earlier in the day and we were trying to just, everyone was in such shock, right? That day, you were just, there was no real understanding. You couldn't comprehend what was really going on. So when we spoke to mom the next day, we couldn't get home that night because all the bridges were closed. So we ended up getting back to the house on Wednesday morning. And when I called her, I said, hey, have you talked to her? She said, no, but I'll see when you get here. So it was about an hour car ride. And when we walked in, she just said, you know, we were waiting for Pat to come home from Iona. And she said, she pretty much broke the news, like we haven't heard from him. And for us really, that was probably one of the hardest things about 9-11 was that it was, it was, there was no information for a long time. And you just, so every time the door swung open, we were trying to like, we would all turn our heads and hope to see dad kind of walking through. And then as, as days, you know, hours turned into days, days turned into weeks, like I'd say like there was no aha moment where we instantly knew, like we just kind of faded, you know, hope just kind of faded away till we realized that, that there was no way.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
We thought that, you know, there was reports that there could be a void under the rubble or an evacuation had taken place and it could be in a, in a hospital in New Jersey for all we knew. Like, so we were just kind of, like you said, holding onto the hope that maybe something had gone on. And, and, and like you said, after, after a couple, a couple of days, it became much more apparent, you know, just the scale and how many people were reported as missing, that the worst had probably happened.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
So you two were at ground zero sifting through the pile, as it was called, in the days and weeks while fires were still burning and for a couple of months after as toxic chemicals were still heavy in the air. Many people would refuse to do that, and especially knowing a loved one was buried in the rubble. How are you able to do it both from a permission standpoint of civilians and an emotional one?
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Well, luckily we were surrounded by incredible people over at Rescue 4, right, where my father was working and assigned. So those guys kind of set a presence early on. They had a great presence at the World Trade Center. They were there. There was at least two to four guys every 24 hours from Rescue 4 there. So they always had a representative kind of answer any questions for our family and they kind of keep us updated and try to quell the rumor mill, which was kind of running rampant at that time. So from there was like there was such chaos down there and we didn't get, you know, it was I think it was early October when we when we really first started like working down there. Things had settled a little bit, right. The dust had settled. We and it wasn't until Patrick was at Iona and kind of the environment around him was it was a freshman college environment. And Pat kind of remember him calling saying like everyone's in a different mindset than I have right now. Like we still don't know where dad is. And and then it was Pat who said, I think we should try to go down there. And we called the guys in Rescue 4 who were more than more than willing. And so they kind of took us down there and took us under their under their wing.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Yeah, they did have a meeting in the firehouse beforehand. Like, is this a good idea? And because we were young, right, 17 and 18 years old. What came out of that meeting was, what would you want to do if it was your dad? And they said, I'd want to be there, too. And that that that made the decision pretty easy. So we were we were instantly welcomed into that, you know, environment. And honestly, we didn't feel like there was anywhere else we wanted to be. We were going to be the ones to carry him out if if we found it, we would have we would have been at the head of the Stokes basket with, you know, carrying him out of there. So that was the intent from the very beginning.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
As we talk about your dad, would each of you share some of your favorite memories of him?
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Sure, well, a couple of things come to mind. First off, my dad was was from a pretty big Irish family in Brooklyn and had a lot of, you know, life experience very early in his life as well. And that definitely brushed off on us. We were very family centric. We did everything together as a family. But he definitely encouraged us to get outside of our comfort zone. So one of the things that comes to mind is we would go down to the beach down here. He was he liked to surf and we would go down even sometimes in some pretty rough waters at the end of the day when he got home from the firehouse. We'd go down and, you know, go boogie board and go surfing and kind of go out there by ourselves and sometimes even in a hurricane type weather, go for a swim. And I always remember that as being something that I was a little unsure. But knowing that he was there, you know, you kind of get over that fear and you go out there. So we would do that a lot, you know, as kids and something we now do with our kids, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
You know, the other thing I often think about was he worked he as he was a fireman, but he was also he also had his own hardwood flooring company. So he was always working. He was always, you know, he was on his hands and knees working on the side all day. And part of his part of the biggest things he worked for, as he always said, was a family dinner. So he would he would tell us to make sure we go upstairs and dress like he had two jobs come down. We'd have it. And he'd take us to a restaurant. He loved going to, like, different places in Grangeville as long Manhattan. He would always he always liked to get out, get us out, get us walking around as a family in the city. So whenever we'd sit down at a restaurant, he would just sit there and take a deep breath. They'd say, this is what I worked all week for. And I think as we've gotten older, we've kind of recognized how proud he must have been at those times to be sitting there with us.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Love those stories. Thank you for sharing. So you two met President George W. Bush. Did that happen at Ground Zero when he was there or did that take place much later?
Speaker 3 (13:18):
That took place later. That was that he was the commencement speaker at my graduation from West Point. So leading up to to graduation when because it was against the odds that I was actually going to walk across the stage by the time that that came around and it was really close, we got a call. And, you know, I had never been called from the White House before. So it's a real ominous, weird number that pops up. And so and so, we want to arrange for for you to meet meet the president after after the graduation ceremony. So again, pretty surreal to just be there graduating to begin with. And then basically had been set up that he was going to mention me in the commencement speech, which was also, you know, very, very cool. So you throw your hat in the air. And before my hat, I think even hit the ground. I was being kind of escorted away with from the Secret Service to go and to grab my mom and my brother. And we got to go, you know, in the back and have a quick moment with him, which was definitely very cool. Yeah.
(14:29):
Speaker2: And, Gene. Sorry, go ahead, please.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Right after that. What Pat's talking is, was the about April of 06. And it was great because I had previously I just got on the New York City Fire Department and I got on January and graduated probe schools in the fields around April also, which was so I was like a brand new probe on the FDY. Pat was graduating West Point. And we were it was around the it was the right right before the five year anniversary. When President Bush, a couple of months later, did the State of the Union on September 11th, we were very fortunate. He had mentioned our family in in that State of the Union address. And that was kind of a surreal moment that he, you know, gave us, you know, remembered our father and our family after, you know, on the five year mark.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
And is the photo you two shared with me for the 9-11 legacy stories wall one from your graduation?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, that is one of my favorite photos in for our listeners. It's it's 9-11 legacy dot org. We'll talk about that later on. James, you talked about just being coming to probe. What inspired you to join the FDNY? Was it always your plan or did 9-11 change that?
Speaker 4 (15:46):
No, that was always the plan for me. I I just remember kind of going in to work with my father, you know, all his friends are fine. And everyone who built that house was a fine. And I remember looking up to these guys and he always worked in the best fire houses on the job and kind of meeting that caliber of a person. Right. These guys were superhuman to me. They, you know, you'd see him walk into a room full of smoke. They'd come out, they'd have a smile on their face and they'd get back in the rig. You know, then we'd we'd go back to court as they'd be breaking each other's chops. And, you know, there was just that sense of of community there that that I know my father really enjoyed, like hanging out with the guys and laughing and the excitement. And so from from a very young age, there's there's been nothing really else in my in my vision. But this.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Are there moments in the job when you feel especially connected to your dad or think about what would he do in certain situations?
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Yeah. I mean, there was a million, especially like right getting on to thinking about, you know, I remember driving home from my first fire. You know, you're in the car on Utica Avenue and you just, you know, would have been really cool to call and talk to him. So I remember thinking about things like that and then going on to to work in Rescue 2, which was where my father did, you know, a bunch of times. So for to walk into that firehouse and what was really cool was right on 9-11, I brought, you know, my family came to Rescue 2 after we went to Rescue 4. And to see my kids sitting around the kitchen table that that Pat and I sat around that when we were when we were kids, you know, it was a full circle moment. I felt like my father would have been it would have been pretty, pretty happy at that moment.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
He's smiling right now. So we've been talking about your dad, but your mom has had an equal impact on your lives. Where did your mom find the strength and resilience to hold herself and your family together after losing your father?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
So, you know, in a in a similar way, my mom also comes from somewhat of a big family. And her and my dad were very much, you know, a unit, right? They were very much in sync. And we're always, you know, again, very close. So but at the time, having, you know, especially 2006, right, the war is kind of in full swing. She had already lost a husband in the line of duty. She's got her youngest son joining the exact same department. And she had her other son going off to, you know, what was definitely going to be pretty much going going off to war. I think she felt both pride and we've talked about it where she felt very much, you know, a lot of pride in the decisions that we had made to go back into that, you know, I guess that that sense of duty that we had to kind of follow in my father's footsteps and that. But at the same time was obviously very nervous that, you know, something bad could happen. But I think she said she trusted our ability to make good decisions. And, you know, our upbringing had kind of prepared us a lot for a lot of what was to come. I look at that time where we were working at, you know, at the site and being surrounded by those types of people. You know, we did kind of come out of it grown up, despite being somewhat young. We had done a lot of a lot of the work to be prepared for what might come. So, you know, I think we just we got pretty mature, pretty quick being exposed to those things. And, you know, then you just got to go out there and hope for the best sometimes. But you know, she was always our biggest supporters and cheerleaders throughout that whole time as well. And luckily, you know, we we were able to persevere through some tough times. And now she gets to, you know, we all live pretty close by, so we see each other a lot. And she's, you know, with the grandkids and all that and very, very lucky to to have that close relationship still.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
And if I could say one thing to her about the impact she's had in your lives, what would it be?
Speaker 4 (20:00):
I think probably the best thing. Well, the biggest impact, I would say, is just how she's she's always put family first. She's never faltered from that. She like from a very young age, she told us the most important thing is that you two stay close. Like, that's always been the lesson. And, you know, so her a foresight to making sure that this family stays as strong. You know, I think we always say that's part of my dad's biggest legacy is that him and my mom, like we're closer now than we've ever been. And I think that so for both my mother and my father, that that's kind of I think the legacy of us, of our family, is that we we are truly best friends.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
She pushed us into that, you know, right after, you know, especially especially after 9-11 when when when we knew my dad was gone, she said, look, this happened, but you guys got to get back out there. Like, we're not going to sit around and feel sorry for ourselves. We have responsibilities. You're going back to school. You're going to focus on the things that you know that you have to focus on. And it gave us a kick in the butt, you know, to get back out there and keep keep going forward.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
James, I mentioned you just promoted to lieutenant back in January. But prior to that, you serve in special, excuse me, Special Operations Command at your father's former Firehouse Rescue 2. Describe that job to us, please.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Really just a dream come true. Again, just this that was the firehouse we spent time with as we were kids. It was a so just to kind of walk in there. I remember dropping my gear on the floor the first day and and just the type of people I was I was surrounded by my entire career, especially at Rescue 2. It set a standard that it was just it's an incredible place to be a part of. It's it's definitely one of the busiest firehouses. It's the busiest firehouse on the FDNY. And the fact that to be part of that history was just like I said, I kind of a dream come true to be there.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yeah, the I'll brag for James, you know, the the there's only one rescue company in every in each borough. So there's only five rescue companies total on the FDNY. So the Brooklyn, you know, Rescue 2 is for Brooklyn. So any major emergency that happens in the entire borough of Brooklyn, which is massive, Rescue 210, you know, would pretty much go to those those emergencies, anything from something in the water where they have to scuba dive, high angle rescue, a collapse, you know, any someone stuck under a train, someone, you know, in a bad situation and especially at a fire where even other firemen might be a danger. That's where they, you know, they typically send the rescue companies in for those things. So it comes with a definite level of prestige that I think is pretty cool that my dad had that, you know, was was in Rescue 2 for many years and then was killed when he was in Rescue 4, which is the Queens Rescue Company. And to have that that, you know, lineage is pretty cool to see James, we're in the same patch, you know.
(23:17):
Speaker2: Big brother doting on you there, James.
Speaker3: Don't get too used to it.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Well, and for our listeners outside the tri-state area, Brooklyn is a huge borough. And the reason I know that besides going there is a handful of years ago, my wife ran the New York City Marathon. And the one thing she says to this day, she had no idea how big Brooklyn is. She's like, I ran in Brooklyn forever. So we talked about your time at Ground Zero, helping clear debris and recover victims. Since then, there's been a measurable increase in rare cancers among first responders. About 1,500 people in the federal program that provides medical monitoring and treatment have died, excuse me, of 9-11 related airway and digestive orders, and nearly 1,400 have died from related cancers. Have either of you undergone any medical checkups to monitor for potential health issues related to your exposure at Ground Zero?
Speaker 4 (24:08):
You have to go from the job. I just go to an annual medical with the FDNY, but that would be the extent of it. I mean, we're seeing people, first responders get sick and injured. And it's definitely something that we're starting to see more and more, right? Like they think they surpassed the number of New York City firemen that were killed after September 11th and before. So it's definitely something like all these guys that they were volunteering for, essentially they were down there looking for our father and all the other firemen and civilians and police down there. I think it's only necessary for them to have the access to make sure that they are checking up on it.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
It's top of mind now, right? I think it's become much more of a, it's not as taboo to go for those checkups. We're guys, we try to avoid going to the doctor, I guess. And I think having seen a lot of young, seemingly healthy, fit guys get really seriously sick, is a wake up call. So I would say, yeah, we're much more aware now than I think we were in the past about keeping an eye on that thing and going in for the checkups and making sure that we're not kicking it down the road too far. So yeah, I think most guys are on board with that now, thankfully.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
And James, I'm not sure if you can comment on this question, given your current role, and if you can't, that's fine, we'll move on. But I recently learned about some pretty significant, I'll call it issues, with the Victim's Compensation Fund. And I know that they need about $2 billion to fully fund it in perpetuity. I heard about one firefighter who perished, has left six children and his wife. That family has only received $800 to date. The law firms are making literally billions of dollars. Again, I don't know if you can comment, if not, that's fine. But what are your thoughts on that? Are you hearing or seeing anything from some of your firefighters?
Speaker 4 (26:15):
To be honest with you, Chris, I'm not hearing anything. I'm not super educated enough to speak on the Victim's Compensation Fund. I just know that the FDNY and really the country has an obligation to make sure that our guys are safe and to do as much as they can. I know the FDNY and the union have been pushing for that for years. And we hope that the 9-11 funding will stay and we'll kind of see it through. It's not just a bump, a stick, and never forget. So we hope that everyone actually remembers the sacrifices.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Well, you and I, the three of us have only known each other for a few months now, but you know I'm a little tenacious when I get my teeth into something. And this was just brought to my attention last week. And so we'll get some traction on this. You know that.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Yep. And there's been some amazing foundations, too, that have sprung up in a similar way to the military, where nonprofits and things like that have stepped up to try to assist in that way as well. And there's some really great ones out there that are doing some phenomenal work. The Tunnel to Towers and some others, the Whittleson Children's Fund, there's some great organizations out there doing good things for those that are not just from 9-11 even. There's still a lot of emergencies and guys get hurt and even killed. Even recently at a James's Firehouse, a fireman was killed. So it's good to see that there's some organizations out there trying to do some of that work as well.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
I completely agree with you. And I know those are great organizations. My whole point and my beef is to not get too political, is that the government needs to take care of you.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
You as a veteran, you as a first responder, full stop. And it shouldn't take after-tax dollars for charity contribution to do it. It should be the government's responsibility. I'm not for bigger government, but this is one thing that they owe you guys. And so again, I'm on it.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
And if you Google 9-11 justice, it's a great cause that's kind of trying to help out this what we're talking about and kind of make sure that Congress and the government help get on board with this.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
All right. We'll move past the VCF and focus on you guys a little bit more here. Get out of the politics weeds. Patrick, you said before that the amazing thing is even knowing the dangers, the men and women who were there on the pile still would have been there. Would you elaborate on that and what it says about service to others and the bonds of brotherhood?
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
The thing about what happened that day is that those guys showed up looking up at that building and knowing that it was not good, but if there was people in there, they were going to go. And I truly believe that even knowing, hey, there's a risk of collapse or major risk that you might not come out. If there was an opportunity to go save people, they're going to go. And I think that's the difference between maybe even a civilian and somebody who chooses this line of work, is that they know the challenges, they know the danger, and they choose to do it anyway. And there is a sense of something greater than themselves when they do that. And I think it speaks to the type of caliber of people that choose that line of work. I don't think it just stops at firemen. I think it extends to police folks and nurses and teachers and civil servants that go out and try to do good in their own way. But yeah, I think that day in particular, I truly believed those guys were going to go in. If there was any way they could help even one person, they were going.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
And something else that speaks to those bonds of brotherhood were the funerals of the firefighters who lost their lives. Some firefighters had two funerals. Explain what happened. And again, the message it sent when firefighters who didn't even know them were at every one of those funerals.
Speaker 4 (30:23):
Right after the 11th, nobody knew what was going on. So people kind of had memorial services right away. And because it was such an emotional time, everyone from your neighborhood, there was such a sense of community around us as family members who lost someone. But the community around people would kind of embrace that, and they would have a memorial service. And then a couple of months later, or if they ended up recovering that person from the World Trade Center, they would have another actual full-blown funeral with the body in the procession. So in the beginning, there was definitely a duplicate of the memorial services, and then into the funerals. And just that was firemen from around the world came to those funerals and stood there and supported. And historically, the fire department funerals, when a fireman gets killed in the line of duty, there's tens of thousands that turn out for it. And that was on September 12th, when 343 guys didn't come home. That was a huge task. And really, like I said, the people who showed up to that were—September 12th, we're not the best in people, right? And there were people who would turn out to those things just to stand there for those families. And it was definitely an emotional time.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
All right.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
This has been a heavy conversation so far. Let's lighten it up a little bit here. Volunteering on Ground Zero wasn't the only way you served. You both played in the FDNY Emerald Society Pipes and Drums at funerals with young men. How'd that come about?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Well, as we said, we were already involved with the bagpipes in a separate pipe band, right? Just doing, a lot of times, just parades. And we're in March right now, and it's parade season. There's parades, St. Patrick's Day parades all over the city, and we travel all over the place to play in them. But the fire department pipe band has been around for—wow, since the 60s, right? So over 50 years. And they were formed basically to honor firemen who were lost in the line of duty. And it's become part of the tradition of a FDNY funeral, at least. So we've been playing with them since 9-11 because they needed to fill the ranks, really. There were some days where there'd be 10-plus funerals in one day, and they wanted to make sure there was representation from the pipe band at every single one of them. So we would divide and conquer. And we were going to be at those funerals anyway, right? We were going to them as people who were affected by it and cared enough to show up and honor them. But then to be able to do it as part of the pipe band was even more special. So again, similar thing, right? The brotherhood of the fire department, we have a similar brotherhood with the pipe band. And we make sure that we send them off in the right way. And I think that's part of the big tradition of the FDNY pipes and drums. And unfortunately, we've become pretty good at it because we've had to do it a lot of times. But yeah, there was, I mean, just hundreds and hundreds of funerals and memorial services over the course of only about eight months. So we represented, basically every single one of them had pipers at it. So we've been playing with them ever since. And a lot of good stuff, you know, they're not all funerals. We do have a lot of fun gigs, you know, with the guys and have traveled all over the world. I mean, you've been to Ireland and Spain and a couple other pretty cool spots, and then all over the country as well. So it's an awesome organization to be a part of.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
I'm having a hard time putting the words bagpipes and gigs in the same sentence, which you just did. I appreciate that. Where'd you guys get your love of music and your musical talent? And before you answer that, I'm actually being told that only one of you has musical talent and the other is just a drummer. Patrick, would you clear that up for us?
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Well, I would venture to say that the real musical talent from the bagpipes, I mean, it's pretty clear distinction. James makes a little bit of noise in the background. You know, we're leading the way up front. But James would say you are the heartbeat of the band. Yeah. So.
Speaker 5 (34:59):
Look, the guys in the front have all the glory. We'll just hold it down, a solid line in the back.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
And you just close it, drop mic, and you're out. So Patrick, you actually went to Iona College, now Iona University, on a bagpipe scholarship. I'm absolutely 1,000% certain that you're the only person I've ever met who received a bagpipe scholarship. When did you start playing the bagpipes and how hard are they to learn?
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Not that hard. Yeah, I started, I was probably, I was a kid, I want to say it was probably like sixth grade, you know, fifth or sixth grade. So it takes a while. You know, you start on a practice chanter, they call it. You know, you kind of graduate up to the full blown pipes, full of a lot of hot air, right? It does take some practice to like, get the metrics of how you're going to fill the bag and you got to keep that sound consistent and yeah, it's not always a pleasant thing to listen to somebody learning how to play the bagpipes. But my parents, they thought I was pretty cool. And I would, when I was finally kind of graduated up to actually getting a set of pipes, it was a big deal. My dad was pretty good at like incentivizing us. So I had to learn like 10 tunes on the chanter and be able to play them, you know, all the way through. And it was like, if you could do that, we'll get you the pipes. And once you can play those 10 tunes on the pipes, then you're going to get the uniform and you're going to, you know, the kilt and you get to march in the parade. So that was, you know, that was always the goal. And yeah, so it took me, it took me a while to play, but once I got the hang of it, it was, it was, you know, off to the races, a lot of fun. Iona is one of the few colleges or universities that has a pipe band. They're the Gales, right? So they're kind of a Christian brothers school and have always had a pipe band. There's only a couple of them, but yeah, they did offer for guys who knew how to play, you know, a scholarship. So I was lucky to be one of those guys. There was a couple, couple of guys there that were on and they were, you know, excellent, some really excellent pipers that came into the school at a high school, already knowing how to play at a very high level. So it was, it was fun. We had a good time, you know, but back in the day. You could take your pipes outside of a pub and just start playing and March in, you don't get ID'd and then someone will hand you a Guinness.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
So from a young age to hashtag winning and being Scottish, I'm not going to ask you what's under the kilt. So we'll just move on from there. But Patrick, you also took your bagpipes to Iraq and Afghanistan, obviously aren't exactly standard issue army equipment. Why'd you take the bagpipes on those deployments and did you get to use them much?
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Yeah, I did actually. I, well, you know, it's, it is part of, you know, part of who I am now, you try to bring the pipes with you or wherever you go, someplace unique. But no, they were the, they were started out right back in their history is the war pipes. It's a, it's a calling to like, you know, we're going forward, it's intimidating. They're pretty loud and very distinct sound. So I brought them as, you know, a way to kind of honor that tradition. You know, I'd play them, my guys would be kind of hanging out and I'd break them out once in a while. I'd stand on the top of our outpost in Iraq and play God bless America, kind of, you know, just had some good symbolism to me. And yeah, so I brought them to both Iraq and Afghanistan and got to play them, you know, occasionally, which was kind of cool.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
And sticking with your bagpipes, you were home in Queens from a tour of duty in Afghanistan in 1211 when President Obama announced that Navy SEALs had killed Osama bin Laden in Pakistan. What did you and James do next?
Speaker 4 (38:49):
That was, that was kind of a crazy, crazy night. We, I was pulling into my house in Long Beach. I was living out in Long Beach at the time. And the phone rings and they say, hey, they, they're going to announce they just, they killed Osama bin Laden. And, you know, Pat was, was recently home and I was like, I started, I didn't even go in my house. I just started driving towards, towards home to mom's house where Pat was. And it said, yo, I'm going to pick you up. We got to do something. And we really didn't know what to do. And between Long Beach and, and, and Rockwood where we were headed, my phone just kept ringing. I was picking guys up and then we ended up getting to Pat and we picked him up and he threw his pipes in the car. There's, we had an American flag with us and we were like, where should we go? We hadn't, we kind of didn't, we didn't know what to do. Right. It was like such a proud moment, like such a great moment for the country. And somebody, I don't know who even said it. We just said, let's, let's go to the city. Let's go to, let's go to ground zero. And so we, we, we flew in through, right through the tunnel. We parked and we just started walking and you can kind of hear the chants and Pat struck up the bagpipes and we had a big American flag with us with, with all the victims names. And we kind of turned a corner and there was just hundreds of people. And with Pat playing and the flag, we kind of went right into the middle of, of this huge crowd and just the overwhelming sense of patriotism and camaraderie and, and incredible night that, that really, it was the essence of like, of America, right? Like we won, we worked hard at it and, and, and, you know, good, good beat evil in that moment. So it was to be at ground zero Pat playing the pipes and with some of our closest friends was just incredible.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
I remember I, we turned that corner, had no idea. We thought we'd be the only ones down there, honestly. When we turned the corner, there was thousands and thousands of people. It seemed only, you know, only right to start playing again. God bless America, America, the beautiful, those types of tunes on the pipes. So holding the, holding that American flag behind me, I just kind of started marching in and people started recognizing the tune and literally singing along. So I had this whole crowd singing, you know, God bless America while I played it on the pipes, standing right outside of ground zero. Definitely, definitely a very, very cool moment for us. So yeah, stands out as a, as a great memory.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
A friend of mine is a big baseball fan. Like I am as a Phillies fan, just recently shared me a clip on that evening. So it was a Sunday night. The only thing on sports for TV was a Sunday night baseball game. It was Mets and Phillies. And then to your point, people started getting texts. They figure out what's going on. And they, the whole stadium, both Mets and Phillies fans start hugging and start chanting USA. The players on the field, they have no idea what's going on. And then, you know, I think about two innings later, they finally figured out that while they were getting texts, like the trainers and things were saying, Hey, we got a lot So I mean, it's one of the most remarkable scenes to your point.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
Yeah. That's, you know, again, as, as an American, right. It didn't matter what political affiliation, it didn't matter where you lived, any, anything. It only mattered that it was about America. And that's, that's kind of what we, we think about when we talk about 9-11 and the reason why we're comfortable talking about it, not just, you know, to keep our father and those guys that made a sacrifices, like their, their memories alive. But we think about what that means meant for the country. Like on nine, on 9-12, like we said, there were people that would just standing along West street, just outside of the site with flags. And thank you. You know, thank you. FDNY. Thank you. NYPD handing out coffee, you know, saying just basically very positive. Right. And that's what we want. That's what we want our country to be like, you know, so be, be like the, like the way it was on 9-12.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Well, to that point, it was 14 years ago since we got bin Laden, you know, we're 24 years ish post 9-11, you know, we made a promise to never forget, but we are there over a hundred million Americans that were born, I'm sorry, hadn't been born or were too young to remember 9-11 or what they shouldn't forget. There's a Pew research report that came out in 2023. They said one in five Gen Zers have a, have sympathy or empathy towards Osama bin Laden. You two saw this and lived through it firsthand. You know, what can we do to get back to September 12th and, or the night it came out that we got bin Laden?
Speaker 4 (43:32):
I think education is, is important. I don't, I do not think that it's written in the history books yet of this country. Right. Which is, is incredible to me. I think, you know, I pull my kids out of school for it every year and we go to a memorial, we go to, we both do, we both bring the kids to dad's firehouse. I think it should be something that is like a true like day of remembrance and definitely think that getting education, getting, you know, words on paper for kids to really read is something that, that really needs to happen soon.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
Yeah, the, you know, the sympathy side of it, you know, when there's innocence involved you know, I think what I learned, especially, you know, from my time overseas and stuff is that we take special consideration for civilians. We're extremely disciplined as best we actually can about not harming civilians and just helping the general population. When you target civilians, whatever your stance might be, you target civilians, that is wrong. That is bad and that is evil. And that has to be called out as well. And it doesn't matter what race, creed, or anything is involved, you know, there's good and evil. And there's, I think a pretty clear distinction in my mind as to what is good and what is bad. And I think that that has to be called out as well. We can't really dance around that topic.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
When you talk about us being Americans, I was speaking to somebody recently and they said that one of their most vivid recollections on September 12th while walking around New York City was that they go through different neighborhoods. And as you know, as well as anybody, most neighborhoods have a certain ethnicity and they'll have their flags hanging up there. There were no different country flags. Every neighborhood had an American flag up.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
And to your point, we have to get back to that.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
We've been on 9-11, we go to the firehouse and we'll be standing outside, you know, everyone's talking, all the guys are in uniform, and people will walk by and go, what's going on? What are you guys doing? And we're like, it's 9-11. And again, they don't even know what that means. So, you know, I do think that at a national level, there's probably some better work we can do to, quote unquote, never forget.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
Well, and to your point, there's only 16 states that actually teach this in their history books. And so that needs to change for starters. And also, I've made the statement several times that if you don't live in sort of the Northeast corridor of the United States, you weren't really affected. It didn't really hit you that much. You saw this terrible event. And so, you know, many people just think it's, you know, a New York City thing, or maybe some people who knew people there, they forget about the Pentagon, they forget about the flight 93 going down to Shanksville, Pennsylvania. And it's a bigger thing than just the Northeast corridor. I mean, to your point, on September 12th, we were all unified as Americans. And so that has completely changed. It's completely forgotten. And it's just, you know, talking to gentlemen, it's just frustrating, upsetting for me for that.
Speaker 4 (46:41):
You know, Chris, I always equate it like, I said, if you go to Oklahoma and you ask the people of Oklahoma, when was the Oklahoma City bombing, right? They'll all tell you the date, the time and the victim count. Right. So it's it's just it's true that we kind of do have short term memories and we do have like, you know, life is so hectic, right, that people it's often easy just to kind of see it in the blurb on the news and keep walking. And it's a shame. But, you know, once when you think of it like that, when you think of the people of Oklahoma and they remember, you know, I can kind of it's a shame, but I can see I can see how it gets forgotten. And it's our job, like what you're doing to make sure that we kind of keep it on the forefront.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
Yeah, I summarize it as it matters to the people that matter to us.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Very well spoken. Very well said. You know, and my wife commented, you know, during the fires in Los Angeles earlier this year, we were watching the devastation, everyone losing their homes. I had a former colleague lose everything. She said this is their 9-11. So, you know, we're over here on the East Coast. We feel terrible for them. But we've got, you know, four walls, a roof and a door and they don't. And we forget about it every day, but they're still putting their lives back together. And so it puts things in perspective. And again, you just kind of hopefully the country comes back together because we need it more than ever. James, you speak to audiences about the lessons you learned from your dad about service, resilience and the enduring impact of family and duty. How can people connect with you if they'd like to have you speak to their group?
Speaker 4 (48:17):
You can just email me at jamesmdowdell at gmail.com. And yeah, we're just we're trying to like Pat said before, the message is always going to be, you know, overcoming adversity, stay in the course like Pat going to West Point, me going to follow my father's footsteps and just kind of staying on track. And it's just it's really great to get in front of people and talk about our father, our family and our lives. And it's I think it's also while remembering 9-11, it's keeping it on the forefront of people. And and I said, I know that it's a connection when afterwards I talk to people, they always tell me where they were on September 11th. And so hearing those stories and interacting is just it's it's great.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
That's therapeutic, too. You know, it is comforting to talk about it. And like like, you know, like James was saying, people that we talk to do, you know, they do remember in a lot of in a lot of cases, you know, these are people that, you know, maybe didn't experience the loss or weren't directly connected to it. But after hearing a personal story, they can they can make a connection to it. And that helps with the education and, you know, the thought going forward where I did meet somebody who was affected by it. I heard I heard him talk about it. It made an impact on me. And then, you know, all the lessons that we've learned along the way tie them into that as well.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Well, and you guys know my listeners know I was at ground zero that day, but I don't think I shared with you to this day. So we're 24 years later. I have the pair of shoes I was wearing, the trading jacket I was wearing, the tie I was wearing and the trade tickets in my pocket from September 10th because the markets didn't open on September 11th. And so I completely understand that. More importantly, maybe if people want to book you guys for a bagpipe and a drum gig, do we have a website or anything?
Speaker 5 (50:13):
No.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
All right. I'm glad you laughed at that. So what do you think that Americans should always remember about 9-11 and especially as we get as time passes? We touched on a few things. Is there one specific thing?
Speaker 3 (50:27):
A sacrifice. It's about sacrifice. You know, look, there were folks that just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that is tragic. There was others that went in head first, knowing what danger might lie ahead. The ultimate thing is just it's about being, you know, America was attacked. It was at the World Trade Center and on those planes and at the Pentagon. But it was America that was attacked. They were trying to attack our values, who we are as a country in their twisted way. So we try to take the positive out of that, right? What does that mean to us as Americans? And how do we teach our kids to be good Americans? And so I think, you know, at the root of it, there were sacrifices that were made for the greater good. But ultimately, we try to come out of it stronger. And that's what I would want someone to take. You know, when they think about 9-11, it's about, you know, taking strength out of something bad that happened and turning it into good.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
My wife and I have a son that's in seventh grade. He's 12 years old. And he came home a few months ago with a book about 9-11. And I've never been prouder. So I completely understand that. James and Patrick Dottle, thank you so much for being with us today. It was a real pleasure and honor to have you guys here. Thanks for sharing your story.
Speaker 3 (51:54):
Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
And thank you to our audience, which includes people in more than 50 countries, for joining us for another episode of Next Steps Forward. I'm Chris Meek. For more details on upcoming shows and guests, please follow me on Facebook at facebook.com forward slash ChrisMeekPublicFigure. And the next, formerly known as Twitter, at ChrisMeek underscore USA. We'll be back next Tuesday, same time, same place, with another leader from the world of business, health, literature, public policy, politics, sports, entertainment. Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.
There are few things that make people successful. Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some time to get there. How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you? Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek. Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward. Now here is Chris Meek.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hello. Welcome to this week's episode of Next Steps Forward, and I'm your host, Chris Meek. As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us. Next Steps Forward is committed to helping others achieve more than ever while experiencing greater personal empowerment and wellbeing, and our guests today embody all those qualities. Soldiers James and Patrick Dottle grew up as the sons of a New York City firefighter and a public school teacher who instilled service and leadership as the core of their life missions. Following the tragic loss of their father, FDNY Lieutenant Kevin Dottle, on September 11th, 2001, Patrick and James joined the rescue and recovery efforts at Ground Zero. The following year, Patrick was accepted into the United States Military Academy at West Point. He was commissioned as a second lieutenant when he graduated in 2006 and served a one-year deployment as a platoon leader in Iraq, beginning in 2008, during combat operations in Baghdad. Promoted to captain, he deployed to Afghanistan in 2010, overseeing mission planning and combat operations in Farah province. James Dottle was a 17-year-old high school senior when he participated in the search and recovery efforts at the World Trade Center site. He began his formal FDNY career on Ladder 174 in Brooklyn. James was promoted to the rank of lieutenant in January on what would have been his father's 70th birthday. James Dottle is also a sought-after public speaker who draws upon the invaluable lessons he learned from his father's legacy to inspire audiences with insights into service, resilience, and the enduring impact of family and duty. James and Patrick Dottle, welcome to Next Steps Forward.
(01:58):
Speaker3: Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
No, thank you. And it's an honor to meet you both. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while, so appreciate your time here. Gentlemen, we're all shaped by our parents, whether they're present or absent, but your lives have been so indelibly influenced by your parents that I can't imagine starting our conversation anywhere else but there. Patrick, you were a freshman at Iona College, but applied to West Point. You're home the weekend before 9-11. Take us through those last few days with your dad.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Sure. Yeah, so we're a very, very close family and grew up in a tight-knit community here in New York. And yeah, I had applied to West Point in 2001 and was wait-listed, so I didn't get in. And yeah, I subsequently applied to Iona and was accepted. So I was in my freshman year, had just moved in. My parents dropped me off, and all the freshman year kind of jitters, but also some excitement. Iona is only about an hour and a half from where we grew up, so not super far away. So James's birthday is actually September 10th, which was Monday of that year. So came home that weekend really to kind of do a little birthday party for him, have dinner, was learning how to do my own laundry and all that good stuff, so home-cooked meal. So I was only up there for a couple of weeks and came home. And yeah, we had a nice normal weekend. I was actually beginning my re-application process. My dad was very disciplined in what, you know, did you keep track of all the things you needed to do? Did you send this letter in? Where are we at? He had me write it all in a notebook, it's kind of how he structured his organizational skills. And I was going through that with him that weekend, here's the things I got to do to kind of reapply. And so yeah, he dropped me off that Sunday after dinner, and it was a normal goodbye. Like I'll see you soon, I'll talk to you. He was going to work that Monday, work at a 24, so work Monday into Tuesday, which was the 11th, so obviously was working that morning. And yeah, it was a nice normal, you know, like love you, see you soon, and dropped me off and off I went. So yeah, nothing unusual, right? We didn't really know what was coming in those next 24 hours.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
And what motivated you to want to attend West Point and pursue a military career?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Well, we used to go up to West Point, so I'm a bagpiper and James is a drummer, and we've been doing it since we were kids. We grew up in a kind of an Irish American neighborhood here in New York. So my dad was into Irish music and the culture. My mom's of Italian heritage, thankfully she was the cook in the family. But yeah, so from a young age, we were exposed to, you know, Irish music and things like that. There's a local pipe band that was giving lessons, so went and signed up and started to learn and always took to it. We used to go to West Point every summer for the military tattoo, they called it, which a whole bunch of pipe bands get together and we'd play on Trophy Point. I remember being up there and seeing cadets walking around and thinking it was pretty cool. I was a G.I. Joe guy and, you know, played Army and stuff. It was like I got exposed to it and said, maybe give this a shot. My dad thought it was cool. And I was like, you should give it a go and maybe apply when you get out of high school. So I did and never thought I would even, you know, that I would be in the running or get accepted. But when I got close, it was like, hey, maybe you should give this another shot. You were right there.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
And we're going to talk about both your musical prowess later in the show, so I appreciate you giving us a little sneak preview into that. James, you've said that your dad would always tell you guys that he'd responded to a ton of fires and emergencies. He'd always find the time to say, you might see this, but I'm OK. When your mom told you that she still hadn't heard from your dad on September 12th, you knew it wasn't a good sign. How long did it take for each of you to process that he was gone?
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Yeah, it was back in, you know, when we didn't have the communication devices we had today, right? The cell phones, we didn't have that instant communication. So, you know, when we were leaving the city, even when we were getting, I had to get on the ferry and go to Staten Island with a family friend, because really the only way out of old Manhattan that day was by boat. And so we get to, when I get to our friend's house, I called my mother and she was just getting home at the time. She said, you know, we hadn't, she hadn't talked to my father. But you know, it was still kind of earlier in the day and we were trying to just, everyone was in such shock, right? That day, you were just, there was no real understanding. You couldn't comprehend what was really going on. So when we spoke to mom the next day, we couldn't get home that night because all the bridges were closed. So we ended up getting back to the house on Wednesday morning. And when I called her, I said, hey, have you talked to her? She said, no, but I'll see when you get here. So it was about an hour car ride. And when we walked in, she just said, you know, we were waiting for Pat to come home from Iona. And she said, she pretty much broke the news, like we haven't heard from him. And for us really, that was probably one of the hardest things about 9-11 was that it was, it was, there was no information for a long time. And you just, so every time the door swung open, we were trying to like, we would all turn our heads and hope to see dad kind of walking through. And then as, as days, you know, hours turned into days, days turned into weeks, like I'd say like there was no aha moment where we instantly knew, like we just kind of faded, you know, hope just kind of faded away till we realized that, that there was no way.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
We thought that, you know, there was reports that there could be a void under the rubble or an evacuation had taken place and it could be in a, in a hospital in New Jersey for all we knew. Like, so we were just kind of, like you said, holding onto the hope that maybe something had gone on. And, and, and like you said, after, after a couple, a couple of days, it became much more apparent, you know, just the scale and how many people were reported as missing, that the worst had probably happened.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
So you two were at ground zero sifting through the pile, as it was called, in the days and weeks while fires were still burning and for a couple of months after as toxic chemicals were still heavy in the air. Many people would refuse to do that, and especially knowing a loved one was buried in the rubble. How are you able to do it both from a permission standpoint of civilians and an emotional one?
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Well, luckily we were surrounded by incredible people over at Rescue 4, right, where my father was working and assigned. So those guys kind of set a presence early on. They had a great presence at the World Trade Center. They were there. There was at least two to four guys every 24 hours from Rescue 4 there. So they always had a representative kind of answer any questions for our family and they kind of keep us updated and try to quell the rumor mill, which was kind of running rampant at that time. So from there was like there was such chaos down there and we didn't get, you know, it was I think it was early October when we when we really first started like working down there. Things had settled a little bit, right. The dust had settled. We and it wasn't until Patrick was at Iona and kind of the environment around him was it was a freshman college environment. And Pat kind of remember him calling saying like everyone's in a different mindset than I have right now. Like we still don't know where dad is. And and then it was Pat who said, I think we should try to go down there. And we called the guys in Rescue 4 who were more than more than willing. And so they kind of took us down there and took us under their under their wing.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Yeah, they did have a meeting in the firehouse beforehand. Like, is this a good idea? And because we were young, right, 17 and 18 years old. What came out of that meeting was, what would you want to do if it was your dad? And they said, I'd want to be there, too. And that that that made the decision pretty easy. So we were we were instantly welcomed into that, you know, environment. And honestly, we didn't feel like there was anywhere else we wanted to be. We were going to be the ones to carry him out if if we found it, we would have we would have been at the head of the Stokes basket with, you know, carrying him out of there. So that was the intent from the very beginning.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
As we talk about your dad, would each of you share some of your favorite memories of him?
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Sure, well, a couple of things come to mind. First off, my dad was was from a pretty big Irish family in Brooklyn and had a lot of, you know, life experience very early in his life as well. And that definitely brushed off on us. We were very family centric. We did everything together as a family. But he definitely encouraged us to get outside of our comfort zone. So one of the things that comes to mind is we would go down to the beach down here. He was he liked to surf and we would go down even sometimes in some pretty rough waters at the end of the day when he got home from the firehouse. We'd go down and, you know, go boogie board and go surfing and kind of go out there by ourselves and sometimes even in a hurricane type weather, go for a swim. And I always remember that as being something that I was a little unsure. But knowing that he was there, you know, you kind of get over that fear and you go out there. So we would do that a lot, you know, as kids and something we now do with our kids, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
You know, the other thing I often think about was he worked he as he was a fireman, but he was also he also had his own hardwood flooring company. So he was always working. He was always, you know, he was on his hands and knees working on the side all day. And part of his part of the biggest things he worked for, as he always said, was a family dinner. So he would he would tell us to make sure we go upstairs and dress like he had two jobs come down. We'd have it. And he'd take us to a restaurant. He loved going to, like, different places in Grangeville as long Manhattan. He would always he always liked to get out, get us out, get us walking around as a family in the city. So whenever we'd sit down at a restaurant, he would just sit there and take a deep breath. They'd say, this is what I worked all week for. And I think as we've gotten older, we've kind of recognized how proud he must have been at those times to be sitting there with us.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Love those stories. Thank you for sharing. So you two met President George W. Bush. Did that happen at Ground Zero when he was there or did that take place much later?
Speaker 3 (13:18):
That took place later. That was that he was the commencement speaker at my graduation from West Point. So leading up to to graduation when because it was against the odds that I was actually going to walk across the stage by the time that that came around and it was really close, we got a call. And, you know, I had never been called from the White House before. So it's a real ominous, weird number that pops up. And so and so, we want to arrange for for you to meet meet the president after after the graduation ceremony. So again, pretty surreal to just be there graduating to begin with. And then basically had been set up that he was going to mention me in the commencement speech, which was also, you know, very, very cool. So you throw your hat in the air. And before my hat, I think even hit the ground. I was being kind of escorted away with from the Secret Service to go and to grab my mom and my brother. And we got to go, you know, in the back and have a quick moment with him, which was definitely very cool. Yeah.
(14:29):
Speaker2: And, Gene. Sorry, go ahead, please.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
Right after that. What Pat's talking is, was the about April of 06. And it was great because I had previously I just got on the New York City Fire Department and I got on January and graduated probe schools in the fields around April also, which was so I was like a brand new probe on the FDY. Pat was graduating West Point. And we were it was around the it was the right right before the five year anniversary. When President Bush, a couple of months later, did the State of the Union on September 11th, we were very fortunate. He had mentioned our family in in that State of the Union address. And that was kind of a surreal moment that he, you know, gave us, you know, remembered our father and our family after, you know, on the five year mark.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
And is the photo you two shared with me for the 9-11 legacy stories wall one from your graduation?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, that is one of my favorite photos in for our listeners. It's it's 9-11 legacy dot org. We'll talk about that later on. James, you talked about just being coming to probe. What inspired you to join the FDNY? Was it always your plan or did 9-11 change that?
Speaker 4 (15:46):
No, that was always the plan for me. I I just remember kind of going in to work with my father, you know, all his friends are fine. And everyone who built that house was a fine. And I remember looking up to these guys and he always worked in the best fire houses on the job and kind of meeting that caliber of a person. Right. These guys were superhuman to me. They, you know, you'd see him walk into a room full of smoke. They'd come out, they'd have a smile on their face and they'd get back in the rig. You know, then we'd we'd go back to court as they'd be breaking each other's chops. And, you know, there was just that sense of of community there that that I know my father really enjoyed, like hanging out with the guys and laughing and the excitement. And so from from a very young age, there's there's been nothing really else in my in my vision. But this.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Are there moments in the job when you feel especially connected to your dad or think about what would he do in certain situations?
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Yeah. I mean, there was a million, especially like right getting on to thinking about, you know, I remember driving home from my first fire. You know, you're in the car on Utica Avenue and you just, you know, would have been really cool to call and talk to him. So I remember thinking about things like that and then going on to to work in Rescue 2, which was where my father did, you know, a bunch of times. So for to walk into that firehouse and what was really cool was right on 9-11, I brought, you know, my family came to Rescue 2 after we went to Rescue 4. And to see my kids sitting around the kitchen table that that Pat and I sat around that when we were when we were kids, you know, it was a full circle moment. I felt like my father would have been it would have been pretty, pretty happy at that moment.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
He's smiling right now. So we've been talking about your dad, but your mom has had an equal impact on your lives. Where did your mom find the strength and resilience to hold herself and your family together after losing your father?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
So, you know, in a in a similar way, my mom also comes from somewhat of a big family. And her and my dad were very much, you know, a unit, right? They were very much in sync. And we're always, you know, again, very close. So but at the time, having, you know, especially 2006, right, the war is kind of in full swing. She had already lost a husband in the line of duty. She's got her youngest son joining the exact same department. And she had her other son going off to, you know, what was definitely going to be pretty much going going off to war. I think she felt both pride and we've talked about it where she felt very much, you know, a lot of pride in the decisions that we had made to go back into that, you know, I guess that that sense of duty that we had to kind of follow in my father's footsteps and that. But at the same time was obviously very nervous that, you know, something bad could happen. But I think she said she trusted our ability to make good decisions. And, you know, our upbringing had kind of prepared us a lot for a lot of what was to come. I look at that time where we were working at, you know, at the site and being surrounded by those types of people. You know, we did kind of come out of it grown up, despite being somewhat young. We had done a lot of a lot of the work to be prepared for what might come. So, you know, I think we just we got pretty mature, pretty quick being exposed to those things. And, you know, then you just got to go out there and hope for the best sometimes. But you know, she was always our biggest supporters and cheerleaders throughout that whole time as well. And luckily, you know, we we were able to persevere through some tough times. And now she gets to, you know, we all live pretty close by, so we see each other a lot. And she's, you know, with the grandkids and all that and very, very lucky to to have that close relationship still.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
And if I could say one thing to her about the impact she's had in your lives, what would it be?
Speaker 4 (20:00):
I think probably the best thing. Well, the biggest impact, I would say, is just how she's she's always put family first. She's never faltered from that. She like from a very young age, she told us the most important thing is that you two stay close. Like, that's always been the lesson. And, you know, so her a foresight to making sure that this family stays as strong. You know, I think we always say that's part of my dad's biggest legacy is that him and my mom, like we're closer now than we've ever been. And I think that so for both my mother and my father, that that's kind of I think the legacy of us, of our family, is that we we are truly best friends.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
She pushed us into that, you know, right after, you know, especially especially after 9-11 when when when we knew my dad was gone, she said, look, this happened, but you guys got to get back out there. Like, we're not going to sit around and feel sorry for ourselves. We have responsibilities. You're going back to school. You're going to focus on the things that you know that you have to focus on. And it gave us a kick in the butt, you know, to get back out there and keep keep going forward.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
James, I mentioned you just promoted to lieutenant back in January. But prior to that, you serve in special, excuse me, Special Operations Command at your father's former Firehouse Rescue 2. Describe that job to us, please.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Really just a dream come true. Again, just this that was the firehouse we spent time with as we were kids. It was a so just to kind of walk in there. I remember dropping my gear on the floor the first day and and just the type of people I was I was surrounded by my entire career, especially at Rescue 2. It set a standard that it was just it's an incredible place to be a part of. It's it's definitely one of the busiest firehouses. It's the busiest firehouse on the FDNY. And the fact that to be part of that history was just like I said, I kind of a dream come true to be there.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yeah, the I'll brag for James, you know, the the there's only one rescue company in every in each borough. So there's only five rescue companies total on the FDNY. So the Brooklyn, you know, Rescue 2 is for Brooklyn. So any major emergency that happens in the entire borough of Brooklyn, which is massive, Rescue 210, you know, would pretty much go to those those emergencies, anything from something in the water where they have to scuba dive, high angle rescue, a collapse, you know, any someone stuck under a train, someone, you know, in a bad situation and especially at a fire where even other firemen might be a danger. That's where they, you know, they typically send the rescue companies in for those things. So it comes with a definite level of prestige that I think is pretty cool that my dad had that, you know, was was in Rescue 2 for many years and then was killed when he was in Rescue 4, which is the Queens Rescue Company. And to have that that, you know, lineage is pretty cool to see James, we're in the same patch, you know.
(23:17):
Speaker2: Big brother doting on you there, James.
Speaker3: Don't get too used to it.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Well, and for our listeners outside the tri-state area, Brooklyn is a huge borough. And the reason I know that besides going there is a handful of years ago, my wife ran the New York City Marathon. And the one thing she says to this day, she had no idea how big Brooklyn is. She's like, I ran in Brooklyn forever. So we talked about your time at Ground Zero, helping clear debris and recover victims. Since then, there's been a measurable increase in rare cancers among first responders. About 1,500 people in the federal program that provides medical monitoring and treatment have died, excuse me, of 9-11 related airway and digestive orders, and nearly 1,400 have died from related cancers. Have either of you undergone any medical checkups to monitor for potential health issues related to your exposure at Ground Zero?
Speaker 4 (24:08):
You have to go from the job. I just go to an annual medical with the FDNY, but that would be the extent of it. I mean, we're seeing people, first responders get sick and injured. And it's definitely something that we're starting to see more and more, right? Like they think they surpassed the number of New York City firemen that were killed after September 11th and before. So it's definitely something like all these guys that they were volunteering for, essentially they were down there looking for our father and all the other firemen and civilians and police down there. I think it's only necessary for them to have the access to make sure that they are checking up on it.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
It's top of mind now, right? I think it's become much more of a, it's not as taboo to go for those checkups. We're guys, we try to avoid going to the doctor, I guess. And I think having seen a lot of young, seemingly healthy, fit guys get really seriously sick, is a wake up call. So I would say, yeah, we're much more aware now than I think we were in the past about keeping an eye on that thing and going in for the checkups and making sure that we're not kicking it down the road too far. So yeah, I think most guys are on board with that now, thankfully.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
And James, I'm not sure if you can comment on this question, given your current role, and if you can't, that's fine, we'll move on. But I recently learned about some pretty significant, I'll call it issues, with the Victim's Compensation Fund. And I know that they need about $2 billion to fully fund it in perpetuity. I heard about one firefighter who perished, has left six children and his wife. That family has only received $800 to date. The law firms are making literally billions of dollars. Again, I don't know if you can comment, if not, that's fine. But what are your thoughts on that? Are you hearing or seeing anything from some of your firefighters?
Speaker 4 (26:15):
To be honest with you, Chris, I'm not hearing anything. I'm not super educated enough to speak on the Victim's Compensation Fund. I just know that the FDNY and really the country has an obligation to make sure that our guys are safe and to do as much as they can. I know the FDNY and the union have been pushing for that for years. And we hope that the 9-11 funding will stay and we'll kind of see it through. It's not just a bump, a stick, and never forget. So we hope that everyone actually remembers the sacrifices.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Well, you and I, the three of us have only known each other for a few months now, but you know I'm a little tenacious when I get my teeth into something. And this was just brought to my attention last week. And so we'll get some traction on this. You know that.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Yep. And there's been some amazing foundations, too, that have sprung up in a similar way to the military, where nonprofits and things like that have stepped up to try to assist in that way as well. And there's some really great ones out there that are doing some phenomenal work. The Tunnel to Towers and some others, the Whittleson Children's Fund, there's some great organizations out there doing good things for those that are not just from 9-11 even. There's still a lot of emergencies and guys get hurt and even killed. Even recently at a James's Firehouse, a fireman was killed. So it's good to see that there's some organizations out there trying to do some of that work as well.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
I completely agree with you. And I know those are great organizations. My whole point and my beef is to not get too political, is that the government needs to take care of you.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
You as a veteran, you as a first responder, full stop. And it shouldn't take after-tax dollars for charity contribution to do it. It should be the government's responsibility. I'm not for bigger government, but this is one thing that they owe you guys. And so again, I'm on it.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
And if you Google 9-11 justice, it's a great cause that's kind of trying to help out this what we're talking about and kind of make sure that Congress and the government help get on board with this.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
All right. We'll move past the VCF and focus on you guys a little bit more here. Get out of the politics weeds. Patrick, you said before that the amazing thing is even knowing the dangers, the men and women who were there on the pile still would have been there. Would you elaborate on that and what it says about service to others and the bonds of brotherhood?
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
The thing about what happened that day is that those guys showed up looking up at that building and knowing that it was not good, but if there was people in there, they were going to go. And I truly believe that even knowing, hey, there's a risk of collapse or major risk that you might not come out. If there was an opportunity to go save people, they're going to go. And I think that's the difference between maybe even a civilian and somebody who chooses this line of work, is that they know the challenges, they know the danger, and they choose to do it anyway. And there is a sense of something greater than themselves when they do that. And I think it speaks to the type of caliber of people that choose that line of work. I don't think it just stops at firemen. I think it extends to police folks and nurses and teachers and civil servants that go out and try to do good in their own way. But yeah, I think that day in particular, I truly believed those guys were going to go in. If there was any way they could help even one person, they were going.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
And something else that speaks to those bonds of brotherhood were the funerals of the firefighters who lost their lives. Some firefighters had two funerals. Explain what happened. And again, the message it sent when firefighters who didn't even know them were at every one of those funerals.
Speaker 4 (30:23):
Right after the 11th, nobody knew what was going on. So people kind of had memorial services right away. And because it was such an emotional time, everyone from your neighborhood, there was such a sense of community around us as family members who lost someone. But the community around people would kind of embrace that, and they would have a memorial service. And then a couple of months later, or if they ended up recovering that person from the World Trade Center, they would have another actual full-blown funeral with the body in the procession. So in the beginning, there was definitely a duplicate of the memorial services, and then into the funerals. And just that was firemen from around the world came to those funerals and stood there and supported. And historically, the fire department funerals, when a fireman gets killed in the line of duty, there's tens of thousands that turn out for it. And that was on September 12th, when 343 guys didn't come home. That was a huge task. And really, like I said, the people who showed up to that were—September 12th, we're not the best in people, right? And there were people who would turn out to those things just to stand there for those families. And it was definitely an emotional time.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
All right.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
This has been a heavy conversation so far. Let's lighten it up a little bit here. Volunteering on Ground Zero wasn't the only way you served. You both played in the FDNY Emerald Society Pipes and Drums at funerals with young men. How'd that come about?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Well, as we said, we were already involved with the bagpipes in a separate pipe band, right? Just doing, a lot of times, just parades. And we're in March right now, and it's parade season. There's parades, St. Patrick's Day parades all over the city, and we travel all over the place to play in them. But the fire department pipe band has been around for—wow, since the 60s, right? So over 50 years. And they were formed basically to honor firemen who were lost in the line of duty. And it's become part of the tradition of a FDNY funeral, at least. So we've been playing with them since 9-11 because they needed to fill the ranks, really. There were some days where there'd be 10-plus funerals in one day, and they wanted to make sure there was representation from the pipe band at every single one of them. So we would divide and conquer. And we were going to be at those funerals anyway, right? We were going to them as people who were affected by it and cared enough to show up and honor them. But then to be able to do it as part of the pipe band was even more special. So again, similar thing, right? The brotherhood of the fire department, we have a similar brotherhood with the pipe band. And we make sure that we send them off in the right way. And I think that's part of the big tradition of the FDNY pipes and drums. And unfortunately, we've become pretty good at it because we've had to do it a lot of times. But yeah, there was, I mean, just hundreds and hundreds of funerals and memorial services over the course of only about eight months. So we represented, basically every single one of them had pipers at it. So we've been playing with them ever since. And a lot of good stuff, you know, they're not all funerals. We do have a lot of fun gigs, you know, with the guys and have traveled all over the world. I mean, you've been to Ireland and Spain and a couple other pretty cool spots, and then all over the country as well. So it's an awesome organization to be a part of.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
I'm having a hard time putting the words bagpipes and gigs in the same sentence, which you just did. I appreciate that. Where'd you guys get your love of music and your musical talent? And before you answer that, I'm actually being told that only one of you has musical talent and the other is just a drummer. Patrick, would you clear that up for us?
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Well, I would venture to say that the real musical talent from the bagpipes, I mean, it's pretty clear distinction. James makes a little bit of noise in the background. You know, we're leading the way up front. But James would say you are the heartbeat of the band. Yeah. So.
Speaker 5 (34:59):
Look, the guys in the front have all the glory. We'll just hold it down, a solid line in the back.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
And you just close it, drop mic, and you're out. So Patrick, you actually went to Iona College, now Iona University, on a bagpipe scholarship. I'm absolutely 1,000% certain that you're the only person I've ever met who received a bagpipe scholarship. When did you start playing the bagpipes and how hard are they to learn?
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Not that hard. Yeah, I started, I was probably, I was a kid, I want to say it was probably like sixth grade, you know, fifth or sixth grade. So it takes a while. You know, you start on a practice chanter, they call it. You know, you kind of graduate up to the full blown pipes, full of a lot of hot air, right? It does take some practice to like, get the metrics of how you're going to fill the bag and you got to keep that sound consistent and yeah, it's not always a pleasant thing to listen to somebody learning how to play the bagpipes. But my parents, they thought I was pretty cool. And I would, when I was finally kind of graduated up to actually getting a set of pipes, it was a big deal. My dad was pretty good at like incentivizing us. So I had to learn like 10 tunes on the chanter and be able to play them, you know, all the way through. And it was like, if you could do that, we'll get you the pipes. And once you can play those 10 tunes on the pipes, then you're going to get the uniform and you're going to, you know, the kilt and you get to march in the parade. So that was, you know, that was always the goal. And yeah, so it took me, it took me a while to play, but once I got the hang of it, it was, it was, you know, off to the races, a lot of fun. Iona is one of the few colleges or universities that has a pipe band. They're the Gales, right? So they're kind of a Christian brothers school and have always had a pipe band. There's only a couple of them, but yeah, they did offer for guys who knew how to play, you know, a scholarship. So I was lucky to be one of those guys. There was a couple, couple of guys there that were on and they were, you know, excellent, some really excellent pipers that came into the school at a high school, already knowing how to play at a very high level. So it was, it was fun. We had a good time, you know, but back in the day. You could take your pipes outside of a pub and just start playing and March in, you don't get ID'd and then someone will hand you a Guinness.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
So from a young age to hashtag winning and being Scottish, I'm not going to ask you what's under the kilt. So we'll just move on from there. But Patrick, you also took your bagpipes to Iraq and Afghanistan, obviously aren't exactly standard issue army equipment. Why'd you take the bagpipes on those deployments and did you get to use them much?
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Yeah, I did actually. I, well, you know, it's, it is part of, you know, part of who I am now, you try to bring the pipes with you or wherever you go, someplace unique. But no, they were the, they were started out right back in their history is the war pipes. It's a, it's a calling to like, you know, we're going forward, it's intimidating. They're pretty loud and very distinct sound. So I brought them as, you know, a way to kind of honor that tradition. You know, I'd play them, my guys would be kind of hanging out and I'd break them out once in a while. I'd stand on the top of our outpost in Iraq and play God bless America, kind of, you know, just had some good symbolism to me. And yeah, so I brought them to both Iraq and Afghanistan and got to play them, you know, occasionally, which was kind of cool.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
And sticking with your bagpipes, you were home in Queens from a tour of duty in Afghanistan in 1211 when President Obama announced that Navy SEALs had killed Osama bin Laden in Pakistan. What did you and James do next?
Speaker 4 (38:49):
That was, that was kind of a crazy, crazy night. We, I was pulling into my house in Long Beach. I was living out in Long Beach at the time. And the phone rings and they say, hey, they, they're going to announce they just, they killed Osama bin Laden. And, you know, Pat was, was recently home and I was like, I started, I didn't even go in my house. I just started driving towards, towards home to mom's house where Pat was. And it said, yo, I'm going to pick you up. We got to do something. And we really didn't know what to do. And between Long Beach and, and, and Rockwood where we were headed, my phone just kept ringing. I was picking guys up and then we ended up getting to Pat and we picked him up and he threw his pipes in the car. There's, we had an American flag with us and we were like, where should we go? We hadn't, we kind of didn't, we didn't know what to do. Right. It was like such a proud moment, like such a great moment for the country. And somebody, I don't know who even said it. We just said, let's, let's go to the city. Let's go to, let's go to ground zero. And so we, we, we flew in through, right through the tunnel. We parked and we just started walking and you can kind of hear the chants and Pat struck up the bagpipes and we had a big American flag with us with, with all the victims names. And we kind of turned a corner and there was just hundreds of people. And with Pat playing and the flag, we kind of went right into the middle of, of this huge crowd and just the overwhelming sense of patriotism and camaraderie and, and incredible night that, that really, it was the essence of like, of America, right? Like we won, we worked hard at it and, and, and, you know, good, good beat evil in that moment. So it was to be at ground zero Pat playing the pipes and with some of our closest friends was just incredible.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
I remember I, we turned that corner, had no idea. We thought we'd be the only ones down there, honestly. When we turned the corner, there was thousands and thousands of people. It seemed only, you know, only right to start playing again. God bless America, America, the beautiful, those types of tunes on the pipes. So holding the, holding that American flag behind me, I just kind of started marching in and people started recognizing the tune and literally singing along. So I had this whole crowd singing, you know, God bless America while I played it on the pipes, standing right outside of ground zero. Definitely, definitely a very, very cool moment for us. So yeah, stands out as a, as a great memory.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
A friend of mine is a big baseball fan. Like I am as a Phillies fan, just recently shared me a clip on that evening. So it was a Sunday night. The only thing on sports for TV was a Sunday night baseball game. It was Mets and Phillies. And then to your point, people started getting texts. They figure out what's going on. And they, the whole stadium, both Mets and Phillies fans start hugging and start chanting USA. The players on the field, they have no idea what's going on. And then, you know, I think about two innings later, they finally figured out that while they were getting texts, like the trainers and things were saying, Hey, we got a lot So I mean, it's one of the most remarkable scenes to your point.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
Yeah. That's, you know, again, as, as an American, right. It didn't matter what political affiliation, it didn't matter where you lived, any, anything. It only mattered that it was about America. And that's, that's kind of what we, we think about when we talk about 9-11 and the reason why we're comfortable talking about it, not just, you know, to keep our father and those guys that made a sacrifices, like their, their memories alive. But we think about what that means meant for the country. Like on nine, on 9-12, like we said, there were people that would just standing along West street, just outside of the site with flags. And thank you. You know, thank you. FDNY. Thank you. NYPD handing out coffee, you know, saying just basically very positive. Right. And that's what we want. That's what we want our country to be like, you know, so be, be like the, like the way it was on 9-12.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Well, to that point, it was 14 years ago since we got bin Laden, you know, we're 24 years ish post 9-11, you know, we made a promise to never forget, but we are there over a hundred million Americans that were born, I'm sorry, hadn't been born or were too young to remember 9-11 or what they shouldn't forget. There's a Pew research report that came out in 2023. They said one in five Gen Zers have a, have sympathy or empathy towards Osama bin Laden. You two saw this and lived through it firsthand. You know, what can we do to get back to September 12th and, or the night it came out that we got bin Laden?
Speaker 4 (43:32):
I think education is, is important. I don't, I do not think that it's written in the history books yet of this country. Right. Which is, is incredible to me. I think, you know, I pull my kids out of school for it every year and we go to a memorial, we go to, we both do, we both bring the kids to dad's firehouse. I think it should be something that is like a true like day of remembrance and definitely think that getting education, getting, you know, words on paper for kids to really read is something that, that really needs to happen soon.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
Yeah, the, you know, the sympathy side of it, you know, when there's innocence involved you know, I think what I learned, especially, you know, from my time overseas and stuff is that we take special consideration for civilians. We're extremely disciplined as best we actually can about not harming civilians and just helping the general population. When you target civilians, whatever your stance might be, you target civilians, that is wrong. That is bad and that is evil. And that has to be called out as well. And it doesn't matter what race, creed, or anything is involved, you know, there's good and evil. And there's, I think a pretty clear distinction in my mind as to what is good and what is bad. And I think that that has to be called out as well. We can't really dance around that topic.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
When you talk about us being Americans, I was speaking to somebody recently and they said that one of their most vivid recollections on September 12th while walking around New York City was that they go through different neighborhoods. And as you know, as well as anybody, most neighborhoods have a certain ethnicity and they'll have their flags hanging up there. There were no different country flags. Every neighborhood had an American flag up.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
And to your point, we have to get back to that.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
We've been on 9-11, we go to the firehouse and we'll be standing outside, you know, everyone's talking, all the guys are in uniform, and people will walk by and go, what's going on? What are you guys doing? And we're like, it's 9-11. And again, they don't even know what that means. So, you know, I do think that at a national level, there's probably some better work we can do to, quote unquote, never forget.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
Well, and to your point, there's only 16 states that actually teach this in their history books. And so that needs to change for starters. And also, I've made the statement several times that if you don't live in sort of the Northeast corridor of the United States, you weren't really affected. It didn't really hit you that much. You saw this terrible event. And so, you know, many people just think it's, you know, a New York City thing, or maybe some people who knew people there, they forget about the Pentagon, they forget about the flight 93 going down to Shanksville, Pennsylvania. And it's a bigger thing than just the Northeast corridor. I mean, to your point, on September 12th, we were all unified as Americans. And so that has completely changed. It's completely forgotten. And it's just, you know, talking to gentlemen, it's just frustrating, upsetting for me for that.
Speaker 4 (46:41):
You know, Chris, I always equate it like, I said, if you go to Oklahoma and you ask the people of Oklahoma, when was the Oklahoma City bombing, right? They'll all tell you the date, the time and the victim count. Right. So it's it's just it's true that we kind of do have short term memories and we do have like, you know, life is so hectic, right, that people it's often easy just to kind of see it in the blurb on the news and keep walking. And it's a shame. But, you know, once when you think of it like that, when you think of the people of Oklahoma and they remember, you know, I can kind of it's a shame, but I can see I can see how it gets forgotten. And it's our job, like what you're doing to make sure that we kind of keep it on the forefront.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
Yeah, I summarize it as it matters to the people that matter to us.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Very well spoken. Very well said. You know, and my wife commented, you know, during the fires in Los Angeles earlier this year, we were watching the devastation, everyone losing their homes. I had a former colleague lose everything. She said this is their 9-11. So, you know, we're over here on the East Coast. We feel terrible for them. But we've got, you know, four walls, a roof and a door and they don't. And we forget about it every day, but they're still putting their lives back together. And so it puts things in perspective. And again, you just kind of hopefully the country comes back together because we need it more than ever. James, you speak to audiences about the lessons you learned from your dad about service, resilience and the enduring impact of family and duty. How can people connect with you if they'd like to have you speak to their group?
Speaker 4 (48:17):
You can just email me at jamesmdowdell at gmail.com. And yeah, we're just we're trying to like Pat said before, the message is always going to be, you know, overcoming adversity, stay in the course like Pat going to West Point, me going to follow my father's footsteps and just kind of staying on track. And it's just it's really great to get in front of people and talk about our father, our family and our lives. And it's I think it's also while remembering 9-11, it's keeping it on the forefront of people. And and I said, I know that it's a connection when afterwards I talk to people, they always tell me where they were on September 11th. And so hearing those stories and interacting is just it's it's great.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
That's therapeutic, too. You know, it is comforting to talk about it. And like like, you know, like James was saying, people that we talk to do, you know, they do remember in a lot of in a lot of cases, you know, these are people that, you know, maybe didn't experience the loss or weren't directly connected to it. But after hearing a personal story, they can they can make a connection to it. And that helps with the education and, you know, the thought going forward where I did meet somebody who was affected by it. I heard I heard him talk about it. It made an impact on me. And then, you know, all the lessons that we've learned along the way tie them into that as well.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Well, and you guys know my listeners know I was at ground zero that day, but I don't think I shared with you to this day. So we're 24 years later. I have the pair of shoes I was wearing, the trading jacket I was wearing, the tie I was wearing and the trade tickets in my pocket from September 10th because the markets didn't open on September 11th. And so I completely understand that. More importantly, maybe if people want to book you guys for a bagpipe and a drum gig, do we have a website or anything?
Speaker 5 (50:13):
No.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
All right. I'm glad you laughed at that. So what do you think that Americans should always remember about 9-11 and especially as we get as time passes? We touched on a few things. Is there one specific thing?
Speaker 3 (50:27):
A sacrifice. It's about sacrifice. You know, look, there were folks that just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that is tragic. There was others that went in head first, knowing what danger might lie ahead. The ultimate thing is just it's about being, you know, America was attacked. It was at the World Trade Center and on those planes and at the Pentagon. But it was America that was attacked. They were trying to attack our values, who we are as a country in their twisted way. So we try to take the positive out of that, right? What does that mean to us as Americans? And how do we teach our kids to be good Americans? And so I think, you know, at the root of it, there were sacrifices that were made for the greater good. But ultimately, we try to come out of it stronger. And that's what I would want someone to take. You know, when they think about 9-11, it's about, you know, taking strength out of something bad that happened and turning it into good.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
My wife and I have a son that's in seventh grade. He's 12 years old. And he came home a few months ago with a book about 9-11. And I've never been prouder. So I completely understand that. James and Patrick Dottle, thank you so much for being with us today. It was a real pleasure and honor to have you guys here. Thanks for sharing your story.
Speaker 3 (51:54):
Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
And thank you to our audience, which includes people in more than 50 countries, for joining us for another episode of Next Steps Forward. I'm Chris Meek. For more details on upcoming shows and guests, please follow me on Facebook at facebook.com forward slash ChrisMeekPublicFigure. And the next, formerly known as Twitter, at ChrisMeek underscore USA. We'll be back next Tuesday, same time, same place, with another leader from the world of business, health, literature, public policy, politics, sports, entertainment. Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.
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