June 3, 2025 • 55 mins
This week on Next Steps Forward, host Dr. Chris Meek welcomes Bill Eddy - licensed clinical social worker, attorney, and director of innovation at the High Conflict Institute - for a compelling look at the rise of adult bullying. Drawing from his book The New World of Adult Bullies, Eddy explains how high-conflict personalities are impacting workplaces, families, and online spaces like never before.
He breaks down the key traits of adult bullies, the difference between conflict and bullying, and why traditional conflict resolution often fails with these individuals. Listeners will learn practical tools - including Eddy’s BIFF Method (Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm) - to navigate toxic interactions, set boundaries, and protect their mental well-being. Whether you're dealing with a difficult coworker or curious about hidden patterns of manipulation, this episode offers empowering insight to help you take your next steps forward.
About Bill Eddy: William Eddy is a licensed social worker, attorney, and the director of innovation at the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. He earned his bachelor’s degree in psychology from Case Western Reserve University, his Master of Social Work from San Diego State University and his juris doctorate from the University of San Diego School of Law. He has extensive expertise with conflict resolution and high-conflict personalities and his professional experience includes roles at Pepperdine University School of Law, National Judicial College, and various counseling and psychiatric institutions. Bill Eddy is also a prolific writer. His numerous books include Five Types of People Who Can Ruin Your Life, The New World of Adult Bullies, It’s All Your Fault, and Don’t Alienate the Kids: Raising Resilient Children While Avoiding High-Conflict Divorce. He is also the co-author of a four-book BIFF series “It’s All Your Fault at Work: Managing Narcissists and Other High-Conflict People” and “Dating Radar: Why Your Brain Says Yes to ‘The One’ Who Will Make Your Life Hell.”
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
There are few things that make people successful. Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some time to get there. How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you? Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek. Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Now here is Chris Meek. Hello. You can do this week's episode of Next Steps Forward, and I'm your host, Chris Meek. As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us as we focus on personal empowerment, a commitment to wellbeing, and the motivation to achieve more than you ever thought possible. We have another outstanding guest this week. Bill Eddy is a licensed clinical social worker, attorney, and the Director of Innovation at the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California, which I'm very jealous about being in San Diego, but I'm not going to lie. He earned his bachelor's degree in psychology from Case Western Reserve University, his Master of Social Work from San Diego State University, and his Juris Doctorate from University of San Diego School of Law. He has extensive expertise with conflict resolution and high conflict personalities. His professional experience includes roles at Pepperdine University School of Law, Newcastle University School of Law, National Conflict Resolution Center, National Judicial College, and various counseling and psychiatric institutions. Bill Eddy is also a prolific writer. His numerous books include Five Types of People Who Can Ruin Your Life, The New World of Adult Bullies, It's All Your Fault, and Don't Alienate the Kids, Raising Resilient Children While Avoiding High Conflict Divorce. He's the co-author of a four-book BIFF series, It's All Your Fault at Work, Managing Narcissists and Other High Conflict People, and Dating Radar, Why Your Brain Says Yes to the One Who Will Make Your Life Hell. I love that title. We could spend an entire hour on each of those topics, so this is gonna be a lot of fun and illuminating conversation. And with that, Bill Eddy, welcome to Next Steps Forward. Thanks so much, Chris. Glad to be on. It's a pleasure to have you here. This is a very unique conversation we're having today, and so I'm really looking forward to it. Something new and different on the show. I was eager to have this conversation after seeing a story about your book, The New World of Adult Bullies. Bullies of any kind rob so many people of their well-being, personal empowerment, mental health, and even their identities, but we always think that adult bullies should know better than that they behave that way. As you've written, bullying is no longer just a school issue, and it's become widespread among adults. What's changing our culture to make adult bullying more visible and acceptable?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Well, I think the biggest change is really through our media, of all forms, showing images of bullying behavior, having you hear voices of bullying behavior, and that in many ways, these are training. They're entertaining for adults, but training for kids. And I think what we're seeing is our whole culture is training people towards bullying behavior. If you want something, you probably can't just ask for it, so you've got to bully somebody in order to get it. And that's not a really good sign, and that's why I say bullies are increasing in society, especially over the last 10, 20, maybe 30 years.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
You say you can't just ask for it, and that just struck a bell with me here. My oldest daughter just graduated from college a few weeks ago, and the person giving the keynote speaker says, part of her message was, you don't know unless you ask for it. So has the culture just changed that much?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
I think it's changing, but I also think part of this is personalities, and that some people's personalities lack empathy, lack remorse, lack emotional control, self-control, and so they engage in more bullying behaviors. But because the culture is giving all these images and sounds of bullying, they're more comfortable with bullying behavior, and someone that could kind of go either way may be more likely to go into bullying because it just seems like the way you do things today. So I won't say that everybody is becoming a bully, but I think there's a cultural shift towards bullying that we need to rein in the more people recognize it.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
And as you talk about that cultural shift, are people who are becoming bullies just say, hey, I want to become a bully, or is it innate, or is it a learned trait?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
I think for some people, what I call high-conflict personalities, people with those, to some extent it is innate for some of them that they have personalities kind of born with tendencies this way. For other people, it's what becomes automatic. We repeat what our parents say as adults to kids, and we go, where did that come from? But we learned it at some point. And likewise, I think when people are in difficult situations, things come out of their mouths, not that they really intended, but that they learned somewhere. And I think that's what we're seeing, that if somebody criticizes you, rather than go, I'll have to think about that, is go, well, look at you, buddy. And so our cultures kind of reinforce that kind of behavior. But again, it depends on the person. Some people are more susceptible to becoming bullies than others, I think.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I mentioned how children learn it from someplace, and we just forget as parents that they're always listening, they're always watching, and it's just- They record everything. Absolutely. Absolutely. Now they've got the phones to do it, too. Right. So how do adult bullies differ from childhood bullies? Is it about power, personality, a lack of consequences, or are all bullies the same?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Well, I think it is different. First of all, I want to say, I believe that all children try out bullying, maybe with a sibling, maybe on the playground. And for some people, they try it once, they get punched in the face, and that's it. They're not going to do that again. Other people get away with it, but they don't have friends, so they realize this isn't going to work very well. So I would say, while every child experiments with bullying, 90% don't take that into adulthood. The 10%, and this is numbers that I just have a sense of, about 10% do carry this behavior into adulthood, and by then, it's more refined. One of the biggest differences I see is that adult bullies are much more manipulative. They know how to say things to be cruel. They know how to manipulate people into situations where they can then take advantage of them. And I think, for example, dating relationships, someone who's going to engage in domestic violence doesn't start there on the first date, but maybe six months into the relationship, they start going, what did you say to me? And there's a slap or something. So I think that the big difference is adults are more manipulative, are more intentional. They may really think it through. Some bullying schemes are pretty well thought out, others are just impulsive. And some bullies regret it and say, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that. But there's a lot that go, well, I was justified after what you said or what you did. So they're more effective at being bullies, I would say.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
What types of adult bullies did your research identify? Are there people who are bullies all the time and with everybody, and people who are only bullies in certain situations or in certain relationships?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Well, it seems that there's the whole range. Some people really do seem to be bullies all the time and they get a reputation and they also may engage in criminal activity. I see a lot of criminal activity as bullying and a fair percentage of people get caught at that, may do some time in prison or at least go to jail briefly. So I think there's that. There's types that surprise people. This person seems reasonable and most of the time they are reasonable, but there's this one behavior or one situation that they really let it out in. A lot of what I looked at was patterns of bullying. People who don't just do it with one person, they do it with several people. And that's, I think, the most common bullies, that it's a pattern of behavior that comes from them. And by the way, isn't caused by their target or victim, but they'll say it's the victim's fault. I had to do this because of what you said or what you did. But it's patterns of behavior and often narrow range of patterns of behavior. And that's why I think it's easier to spot these folks once you're around and go, hey, that's someone I'm going to steer clear of, because I've seen what he said to Jane, what he said to Bob, and I don't want to be part of that.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
How does one go about researching bullies? Did you say, hey, you look like a bully, can I do some research on you, or did he not know?
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Well, what's interesting is I've been working as a therapist for 12 years, then a family lawyer for really 15 years, then a mediator focused on that 15 years. And so I've just seen it in my cases. I've seen couples where one person's bullying the other and what the dynamics of that are. Certainly in family court, you see a fair amount of bullying behavior, and it isn't just by the parties to the case. Some of it's by professionals, and that's particularly concerning. But some professionals are attracted to roles like being a lawyer or something like that because then they can be a bully under the guise of, oh, I'm just representing my client. The fact that I lied about the other party really doesn't matter. I've got to be a zealous advocate for my client. So I've seen, I would say this really comes from a lot of observation, but it's been a topic that's always fascinated me, especially because I was a mental health professional first, learned about personality disorders, which most people don't know much about. I was trained in that in 1980 in my training to be a child and family therapist. And so I started seeing that in legal disputes and in mediations. And so that's kind of my fascination with bullies is they have these predictable patterns of behavior that most people don't know about.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
You often emphasize that many adult bullies have high conflict personalities. What are the personality traits that fuel bullying behavior in adults?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Well, it seems to me there's five general patterns and these are associated, well, let me back up. First say, when I talk about high conflict personalities, I talk about people with a repeated pattern of conflict behavior that's preoccupied with blaming others, has a lot of all or nothing thinking, often unmanaged emotions, which you may or may not see, but they're driving their behavior. And then extreme behaviors, they'll do things 90% of people would never do. So I think about high conflict personalities, kind of subcategories of those are five personality disorders. Not everybody with these personality disorders is a high conflict person. Not everybody who's a high conflict person has these, but the five basic types seem to be, first of all, the narcissistic type. And people today say everybody's a narcissist because they may be self-centered or something, but narcissistic personality disorder is much more about being a superior person and putting other people down. It's really being in a relationship with them can be very uncomfortable and hurtful. So that personality tends to be a drive to prove they're superior by putting down the people around them, whether it's in the workplace, in relationships, their kids, et cetera. So they're invested in putting people down, that kind of bully. Then there's the antisocial bully who really enjoys dominating other people. It's like, and I think this is the personality most likely to be inborn, and this is more genetic tendencies. Someone's got this kind of parent. They may have these tendencies and these are the hardest to change, but they may be more mean and cruel because this is who they are. They're much more likely to be in physical fights, to be physically abusive, dominating people, maybe even in the workplace, getting into fights, street fights, bar fights, all of that, the antisocial personality. The borderline personality, and this is confusing to people, people are hearing more about it, mostly wide mood swings, but also sudden and intense anger. And we see most of this in family relationships and whether it's domestic violence or some other kind of verbal negativity, this personality, and this personality wants to feel close and comfortable, but if they feel their relationships threatened, then they can become very aggressive and dangerous sometimes. Then there's another, the histrionic personality, dramatic, will tell stories, make up stories, get people in trouble. They like the drama. And then people with more paranoid personalities who really believe there's conspiracies out to get them, that they can't advance in their career because other people at work are sabotaging them or that their wife or husband are having lots of affairs and things when none of that is true. So these are subtypes, and not everybody with these personality disorders is a high conflict person, but the high conflict people seem, and I'm talking about maybe hundreds of cases where I've seen these same patterns repeat and repeat.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
You mentioned social media at the top of the show, obviously it's created new avenues for bullying. How does the shield of social media, in some cases it's complete cloak of anonymity, encourage high conflict personalities to lash out?
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Oh, it really, there's no restraint. And that's one of the problems for people with high conflict personalities. They lack self restraints. And so what we're doing is not only have we lifted a lot of restraints, but we're also showing bad behavior. And so they're encouraged by that. And so on social media, people know what to do. You blast the other person and many, many, you know, threads or email chains, et cetera. It's only four or five interactions before people start saying, you're an idiot. And the other person says, no, you're the idiot. And it's just downhill from there. So unfortunately, this is a platform that allows our worst behavior to come out. And what we're learning, and schools are learning this, and parents are learning this, is we have to set limits. You can't have unrestrained relationships. No one's going to stay with somebody that calls them an idiot all the time. And so that's the, like you said, the cloak of anonymity feeds that. And it's interesting, there's a study, and I talk about it in the Bullies book, that they wanted to see is everybody becoming more hostile online? And what they found is no, that most people aren't, but that the people who are, are also the people who were bullies offline, and that reasonable people get out of the social media conversations because they're not comfortable. So it looks like most of the people on some of those conversations are, in fact, bullies. And so fortunately, there's still a small percentage of people that are bullies, but they're dominating society in many ways, and certainly dominating social media.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Why do enablers, whether they're bystanders, organizations, or entire systems, yield power to adult bullies instead of just standing up to them?
Speaker 3 (17:40):
You know, this is fascinating. Part of it is because they don't see the bullying, that the people at the top of the organizations see someone who's charming, and energetic, and performing at least according to what that person says, but they're not hearing from the people under that person. So you may have a middle manager who's terrorizing his staff, and yet charming the people above him, and everyone goes, oh, so-and-so's so great, you know, he's so good, doing so well. So part of it, I think, is a conning process, that people get conned by bullies. And when I said at the beginning that adult bullies are more manipulative, I think that's a big part of that, because they've learned how to get away with a lot by how to present themselves to the people in charge. So I think a lot of organizations tolerate bullying, partly because they don't know about it, but another thing is, most of us as adults, we're raised to be responsible for ourselves, not to be setting limits on everybody else around us. And yet, we're learning, we need to learn skills of setting limits on other people's interpersonal behavior, especially as it's directed towards us. So we need to get more comfortable saying, wait a minute, you can't keep talking to me that way. If you do, I'm ending this conversation. Okay, you kept talking to me that way, so I'm hanging up, goodbye, click. So I think we're learning slowly that we really have to have a world that sets limits on bullying.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Have you seen this trend change post-COVID? And by that, I mean, during COVID, everyone got much softer, kinder, gentler, for lack of a better phrase, and now it seems like forever ago, it was five years ago, but now you're talking about this, and has that started to be more like a hockey stick in terms of growth?
Speaker 3 (19:47):
What I'd like to say is that with COVID, it immediately started getting worse. And let's take the workplace. I assume people aren't seeing each other, there's going to be less bullying, yet the research, and there was a survey in 2021 by the Bullying Institute, which people didn't know existed, but it's a workplace bullying institute. And they did a survey and they found that online bullying doubled, really increased, so that there was less in-person bullying, but the online bullying outstripped the in-person bullying that existed before. And I think this is that anonymity that you were talking about, that even though it's people you know criticizing you online from the workplace, they're not face-to-face with you. And so they blurred out things that they might've thought before, but not blurred it out. So that happened. Then in families, domestic violence immediately increased, partly because people were trapped together. Also, there wasn't work, they weren't going anywhere, and so frustrations about work, maybe even being laid off, some people were venting that. We know when people are laid off, domestic violence goes up. So that already increased just in the first year of COVID. The thing I think that didn't happen right away that's happened since COVID was for kids and such, where they lost some of their social skills, and so were more likely to bully people when they got back together face-to-face, harder to share, harder to listen, and do all of that. So between immediately and after COVID, yes, definitely an increase. And the end isn't in sight unless we set limits, which is like what schools are doing, where they take phones away at the beginning of the day and give them back at the end of the day. Things like that are what I think we'll end up seeing over the next few years.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
How can bystanders or even coworkers respond effectively to workplace bullying without becoming targets themselves?
Speaker 3 (22:18):
It's tricky. And what I recommend in the Adult Bullies book is that people do something really small and simple. You don't have to gear up for a major confrontation and say, hey, buddy, you've got to change your behavior. You're really messing up. You're treating people badly, all that. Just say like, that's enough, Joe, or cut it out, or give her a break. All you have to do, you can say that and then walk away, just so they know that somebody else is watching and doesn't approve. Because a lot of bullies get encouraged when people around seem to be watching in a neutral way, not negatively, or actually encouraging them. Let me say that at this point, one of the things that bullies are good at is getting other people to participate in the bullying, is spreading rumors, doing things that get other people to gang up on individuals. In the workplace, they call it mobbing. But in other settings, that's certainly one of the problem behaviors that adult bullies are much better at than kid bullies.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
You talk about the need for structural solutions and not just personal resilience. What are those structural solutions?
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Well, what's interesting is I think employers, my understanding is very few, there's very few laws against bullying. Laws against bullying in the workplace pretty much don't exist in the US. There may be some small pockets here and there, whereas a lot of other countries have that, Australia, some countries in Europe, et cetera. I think we need what we have with sexual harassment, that that's illegal. In the workplace, you can't sexually harass someone, whereas you can bully them. I think we need to expand that a little bit. One of the cases in my book is from Australia, where a company was sued for $600,000 because of a supervisor bullying an employee. They worked together in a tight setting, just the two of them, and he was constantly picking on her and harassing her. That really was considered bullying and violated the anti-bullying laws in Australia. What's interesting though, and I like the Australia example, is that they hold executives responsible, and they may have to pay out of their own money if they're aware of bullying and don't do anything about it. I think institutions, that's the kind of approach that's needed, but it doesn't have to be reinventing the wheel. We already have it now around sexual harassment. I think it's just expanding it would be a good step.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
That's interesting. I never thought about the company manual or company policy and bullying. Like you said, there's sexual harassment, so you just kind of think naturally there's got to be something in there. It's sort of like a parallel issue, if you will, but that's fascinating that not many places have that.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Right, and one thing about bullying that I found, and there's a study in healthcare that showed that men mostly bullied men and women mostly bullied women. While I don't know of a study across the board with adults like that, we think of sexual harassment as men harassing women primarily, but occasionally women harassing men, but the same sex stuff doesn't get attention because it's not considered sexual harassment, and yet there's a lot of men and a lot of women getting harassed by their same gender.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Have there been any studies that show who does more harassment, men versus women?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
All the studies I've seen are about particular settings, and that's where the healthcare setting, I don't know what they compared, one was more than the other, but that there was a fair amount of female on female harassment, mostly by administrators to people beneath them, and people I know, I've heard more stories from nurses saying how they're harassed by the people or bullied by the people above them or even amongst their peers than I have about men being bullied, but we know it exists. So I think it really depends on the nature of employment. We know in other occupations, police, law, military, that these are occupations that tolerate more bullying than the average occupation, and therefore it goes on in both directions.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
There's an old expression that applies to some bullies in the workplace, and that is, they kiss up and kick down. The meaning is that they suck up to their superiors and abuse and bully their co-workers and subordinates. Why do so many adult bullies look competent, charismatic, or even caring at times to the people they aren't bullying, and what makes them so hard to spot until it's too late?
Speaker 3 (27:57):
It's exactly because of that ability to really con people, to put on a show, to be charming, and charm is actually a warning sign. We tell people in dating, as someone that's super charming, you need to check out. I mean, there are some super charming people, but there's a lot of bullies who are super charming until they have you committed to them. Then all this stuff comes out. So I think that's kind of part of the adult manipulation and conning that makes it hard to find and root out. Just over and over again, I do a lot of consultation for people in divorce cases and workplace cases, neighbor disputes, sometimes political city councils and school boards. One of the most frustrating things for the individual who's being harassed or bullied is that the people around them think that that person is really great. And so it's an uphill climb to say, wait a minute, that person isn't so great. They're conning you. What I teach is focus on behavior and teaching people what the behaviors are you're experiencing. So they can see, oh, well, that behavior is not good. That behavior is not good. Oh, maybe that person isn't so special. One other thing I want to add though, is a lot of employers tolerate high performing employees and managers because they think we need their high performance and we don't want to lose that. But the reality is that studies show that a high performer who's also abusive is worse than having someone who's just a high performer. And that there's many high performers who aren't bullies, who aren't harassing, etc. So that's important. Employers tolerate, I'd say from everything I've read as a lawyer with appeals court cases and other cases is a lot of organizations wait two or three years too long to say, okay, this person really needs to be gone from this organization.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
You're right that adult bullies often play the victim. How can we spot when playing the victim is actually a manipulation tactic and that someone really is a bully, basically a wolf in sheep's clothing?
Speaker 3 (30:31):
A lot of it is just looking under the surface is, is that really true? What's interesting is by playing the victim, bullies often emotionally hook people to feel sorry for them and to put blinders on. And so they say, oh, I've been treated so terrible. You know, you won't believe how bad I've been treated by this person or this organization. And so they, they get you emotionally and father's like, oh, that's terrible. I want to help you. What can I do? And I know as a lawyer, I always have to watch out for that because people go to lawyers to represent them against organizations, against former spouses, against neighbors, et cetera, with a story to tell. And the story pulls on your heartstrings. And yet we've learned bullies. And I mentioned earlier, antisocial bullies are really good at conning people into taking their side and, and saying, I want to be the knight in shining armor for you. And then at some point you find out, whoa, I'm on the wrong side here. So I think a healthy skepticism is warranted today for everybody, but especially when someone wants you to take up their cause, make sure that it's the right cause.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
What are some practical ways to protect yourself from adult bullies, and especially in situations where you can't walk away like a job or a family relationship?
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I think a lot of managing the relationship is, is first of all, figuring out what boundaries you can have, what boundaries you need, and, and not engaging. That's a mistake a lot of people make is they engage with bullies and argue with them. You shouldn't do that. You're being a jerk. Can't you see what you're doing? And bullies enjoy that. Bullies enjoy that. They, they like having people upset with them because now you're emotional and not as rational and, you know, it's fun for them. It's, they, they like that emotional interchange and, you know, maybe I shouldn't say it's fun for them, but it's familiar for them because that's how they've learned to be in life is, is to be in confrontation. That's, that's part of how bullies feel alive is to be confronting people and maybe dominating them and feeling that. So don't engage, engage the minimum necessary. And think in terms of setting limits, what you need to do. And that's part of the book is, is making credible threats, setting limits, imposing consequences. If you keep doing that, I'm going to no longer help you with the such and such project, or I'm, I'm not going to talk to you further if you keep doing X, Y, Z. So a lot of it's about setting boundaries, setting limits, keeping an arm's length, don't engage too much. Often what you say though, to a bully is to be careful that you're not inciting them. So, you know, one thing I've found when I teach people is use the word respect. A lot of bullies are really in some way looking for respect. And so find something you can respect. Maybe they're good at their job. Say, I respect the work you're doing. That was a great presentation last week. And now I've got to go and get to work on my project. So, you know, you kind of limit your engagement. But if you can, you know, if there's something you can respect that often calms down a bully and makes them less aggressive. And maybe makes you less likely to be a target for them. Do bullies confront people for sport?
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Or is it just sort of their everyday life pattern?
Speaker 3 (34:35):
I think it depends on which kind of bully. When I talked about anti-social bullies, I think that for them, some of them, at least, that it is for sport. That just the process of dominating other people, upsetting other people, feeling the power of destroying somebody else's life for its own sake. And like I said, that's more likely an inborn trait. There's a percent of people like that. For others, say, borderline bullies with the mood swings, they want to feel attached. And when they feel their attachments threatened, then they're impulsive and anger and hurtful. And yet they often regret some of that. So it really depends on which kind of bully you're dealing with.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Some listeners right now may be wondering, am I the bully? And if you're a bully, can you really be oblivious to that fact? And what signs should someone look for in themselves to ensure that they're not engaging in bullying behavior without realizing it?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
It's a great question. And first of all, I'd say most bullies don't really believe they're bullies. They're just doing what you have to do to get on in life. They think, see, I'm just being normal. Look at how people treat me. I have to say what I did. I have to hit him. I have to do whatever I did. So that's part of the distorted thinking that bullies tend to have. If someone is wondering, am I the bully? That's a really healthy sign. Because when you're reflecting on yourself, then you can adapt and change and improve your behavior and improve your relationships. So I'd say that's less often, but that's a really good sign. And one thing that people can look at is what kind of feedback do I get? What do people look like when I act the way I act? Do they look afraid? Do they look upset with me? Reading body language is one of the things we learn almost from day of birth, that this helps us understand how we're doing in relationships. And that lack, you know, social media doesn't have the reading body language, which is part of why people get off track with that. So I think just realizing the impact you have, ask yourself, do I make a lot of you statements or do I make a lot of I statements? You know, I feel, I want versus you did and you shouldn't have done and you, you, you. It's one of the easiest ways to see. If you say you more than you say I, you may be slipping into that bullying. But a lot of us just ask people, how are we doing? How am I coming across? You know, I value our relationship. I'm just checking in. Is there anything I've done that's offended you? And let me know.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
In your experience, what makes certain workplaces more vulnerable to enabling bullies, especially when they're in leadership roles?
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Especially when, what about leadership? When they're in leadership roles. Oh, when they're in leadership roles. Did you say certain occupations? I'm going to. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Is there any certain occupation that is more enabling for bullies versus others?
Speaker 3 (38:06):
I think that, well, first of all, I mentioned police, military and law because they attract and allow behavior that borders on bullying. So I would say that there's probably more in these professions. How much is hard to say. Overall, what I see is kind of a spectrum, a range that if you have an organization that's too tightly run, you may get, someone has to be a bully to get anybody's attention. Or on the other hand, and more common is an organization that are too loosely run. And so bullies get away with a lot and may rise in the organization to dominate a lot of the groups within that organization. So the ideal is a balanced organization. It has structure, roles, consequences, positive feedback. A well-run organization has the least bullying. A real rigid top-down leadership, then you run into trouble. And like I mentioned, like the military, there's a lot of military leaders trained to do a really good job at not bullying and not allowing bullying so that they can support everybody. That's an intentional organization around interpersonal behavior. You got a lot of, say, small businesses where you have untrained people and they don't know what to do or they overreact to bullies and bullies get away with a lot. So it's not so much the type of field as much as the type of management. I might mention with High Conflict Institute, we have a training. We call it new ways for work. It's skills for work, new ways for work for leaders. Because leaders today are saying, what do we do? There's so much going on, or I'm a new leader. You know, what can I do to succeed? So we certainly see that in support leaders who want to learn good balanced management.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Paul, and to that point, we've mentioned your books several times. Where can people find your books?
Speaker 3 (40:28):
They're all on our website, highconflictinstitute.com. And they're also on Amazon and Barnes & Noble and independent bookstores. So they're out there. Most of my books are eBooks also. So you don't have to carry them around.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
And if someone wanted to reach out to you for a training program, how can they get in touch with you?
Speaker 3 (40:50):
They can come to our website and sign up. We list training programs. We have individual webinars, like an hour that's useful. But we also have live trainings that we do every month or two. We have what we call our new ways methods. New ways means new skills in this today's environment. So we have new ways for work coaching for employees, new ways for work for leaders. We also have new ways for families going through divorce and new ways for couples and families where intact families want better skills, raising the kids, et cetera. So yeah, so we're doing a lot of that and feeling good about that.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
You have a very unusual blend of experiences, both a lawyer and therapist. I don't know if I've, I would say this shows a show first. I think you're the first lawyer therapist I've met. What drew you to conflict resolution and how those disciplines converge?
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Well, what's interesting is I was drawn to conflict resolution first. I got involved in a community mediation center in San Diego in the mid 1980s. And I said, you know, I think mediation is the career for me. Where's the jobs? And there really weren't jobs in mediation, mediating disputes. There was a volunteer program, but I wanted a job in that. And I saw that families, of course, had a lot of conflict. So I decided to get a master's in social work and become a child and family therapist and did that for 12 years. But in the background, I still liked mediation and did volunteer mediations. And I said, someday, I think I really do want to do this full time. And lawyers are starting to do mediation. And so I'll go to law school. So I did. But in law school, I realized lawyers as lawyers can do a lot of conflict resolution, settling cases on the courthouse steps, things like that. So I figured I'm going to practice family law for a couple of years, as well as do my mediation practice. Well, after 15 years of practicing family law, I finally stopped that and just did mediation. So it really started with conflict resolution. And I think that's really been the theme throughout my counseling and practice of law representing client experience. And that's what's put this all together. Because I can see high conflict has to do with personalities, not issues. And that surprises a lot of people. But I can see that over and over and over again.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
I mentioned at the beginning of the show that you've co-authored a four-book series about the BIFF method, Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm. How'd you develop the BIFF method and how and when should we deploy it in the workplace?
Speaker 3 (43:56):
Great question. I can tell you exactly when. It was March of 2007. I was giving one of the first seminars that I was doing with my business partner who became the co-founder of High Conflict Institute with me in 2008. So in 2007, we're doing a seminar for family law professionals. And there was a couple judges there. And in the middle of the seminar, one of the judges raises her hand and says, what can we do about these horrible emails that divorcing parents write to each other? And since I'd been a therapist and was now a lawyer at that point, I said, well, they really have to be brief. Because I'd already learned I was coaching my clients. And they just need to be about information. And they should have a friendly tone. And they said, oh, well, that's B-I-F. That spells BIFF. If you had another F, then you'd have the name BIFF. And I said, well, other F would probably be firm. You need to end the conversation. Don't let it just keep going back and forth, back and forth. And that's how BIFF was born. And started teaching it to people. And then wrote the first book on it. Trademarked the term. And so you're right. Now we've got four books on that method. The original BIFF book. Then we have BIFF for co-parents in divorce. We have BIFF at work. And we have BIFF for lawyers. A lot of people don't know, but some of the worst emails are what lawyers write to each other. How did they ever let you practice law? What were you thinking when you wrote this bill? Things like that. And there'll be more BIFF books to come. Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
If I make it that far, I'll be married 25 years this August. But your book, Dating Radar, Why Your Brain Says Yes to the One Who'll Make Your Life Hell, caught my eye because I'm wondering if the one who'll make someone's life hell always falls into one of the five categories of high conflict personalities. Is the one always going to be either narcissistic, borderline, paranoid, antisocial, histrionic, or a combination of all those traits?
Speaker 3 (46:21):
My experience is that they always fit into one of those five categories. And it's kind of uncanny. I keep looking for a new category. But I think this is part of human nature. These are exaggerations of human traits. And so I haven't seen any that don't have one of these personalities as a pattern of behavior. And that's what makes them not that hard to recognize. And after doing close to 2,000 divorces as a mediator and as a lawyer and as a therapist, I wanted to help people not have to go through this. Because so many people said, I didn't realize. Or there were warning signs before the wedding. But I figured time and love will heal all wounds and things like that. So that's why we wrote the book, to really let people know those aren't necessarily true with these folks. And this may be 10% of society that people just don't know about and should learn about. We know a lot about alcoholism and addiction. But personality disorders are about 10% of the adult population. And I'd say high conflict people have about a 50-50 overlap with personality disorders. So they're also about 10% of people. And people need to know. They need to know patterns to look for. Because the patterns aren't usually that unusual or complicated. But people with these patterns of behavior do make efforts to cover them up. So people need to take, we say you should wait at least a year before you really commit. Because it may take six to 12 months for these patterns of behavior to reach the surface.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
TIM LARKIN It's funny you say a year. I'm laughing because a good friend of mine, his daughter's been dating somebody for six or nine months now. But he says you have to wait four seasons. And so it's the same concept. As the year, go through four seasons with each other. See how you react during spring and winter and all that. So that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
ROBERT That's a good way to put it. Because those settings, you never know when things are cold or really hot.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
TIM LARKIN Exactly. So back to that with the one. What happens in the brain during early attraction to override good judgment?
Speaker 3 (48:49):
ROBERT It's complicated. But I think in many ways we have, and I don't lay this out in the book as well as I'm going to describe it right now because what I've learned since then. But it seems that it helps to think of ourselves as having a lower mind and a higher mind. And that the lower mind we share with all mammals. And that we have these primitive emotional systems. We have fear. We have rage. We have caring. We have play. We have seeking. But we also have lust. And these are pure emotions. And we see animals act on these pure emotions. A raging bull without any tempering of rage. Well, we also humans fortunately have a higher mind, which should keep this stuff in check. But sometimes we get conned. And so we go, you know, my lower mind really likes this guy. And he's handsome and strong and says all the right things. So I'm going to just kind of go with that. And yet he's saying all the right things on purpose because he's going to stop saying all the right things on your wedding night. And that's when you're going to be surprised. And by the way, in that book, we did an online survey, got about 300 responses. And several people say the change came on my wedding night. It's like, now you're mine. And it's going to be different now. You know, birdwatching. I was never into birdwatching. I just, you know, pretended I was. So I'm not going birdwatching anymore. Things like that. And I'm in charge. I'm in charge of the finances now, whatever. So it's predicting these patterns of behavior, helps people spot them, I think, and signs of them. And anyway, so it's kind of an interplay between the parts of our mind that just really like somebody and the parts of our mind that say, be careful, be careful.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
You've gone through 2,000 divorces, which you mentioned. You've dealt with different conflict situations. How do you personally stay centered and emotionally balanced when you're working with combative or manipulative individuals?
Speaker 3 (51:23):
A few things. First of all, for some reason, this stuff is fascinating to me. And so of the 2,000 divorces, 1,500 were divorce mediations and about 500 as a lawyer. And I would often be in mediations where I go, wow, I wonder how this is going to turn out. And I really wondered. And it's like, I'm going to try everything I know and see if it works. But I love learning. And somehow I got into this. My father was a scientist and my mother basically was a social worker. So I kind of became a social scientist. But I really love figuring this out and helping people. So part of it is because it's fascinating to me. I do keep learning and wondering how things will turn out. That helps me not get too much into it personally. So I also memorize some phrases that I repeat before I go into a meeting or mediation. Like, it's not about me. So if they're really angry with each other. And I've had mediation where both people turn to me and say, Bill, you're not helping. And I'm like, oh, OK, well, what do you suggest that we do now then? Well, we don't know. But I know it's not about me. And that makes it easier to not absorb it. I'm not responsible for their outcome. I'm only responsible for doing my part. So as a mediator, I can facilitate discussions, but I can't force agreements on people. Other phrases, change how they think, forget about it. Because high conflict people have a narrow way of thinking that they repeat and repeat and repeat. What else? Anyway, one also is getting away from it all. And so getting outdoors, going for walks, going hiking, traveling, going on vacation, getting away, but especially getting out into nature where things can be peaceful. You hear birds singing and the trees rustling.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
So being human.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
Being human, yeah. And enjoying it and thriving on that and balancing this. I might mention as a mediator, people say, how could you do, you know, I used to do two mediations a day. So how could you do that? And they said, well, two thirds of my mediations weren't high conflict cases. And so that made a difference. So I don't drown myself in high conflict. I try to keep a balance.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
Bill Eddy, Director of Innovation at the High Conflict Institute and author of numerous books. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you, Chris. I really enjoyed this. No, it was a pleasure. I'm Chris Meek, run of time. We'll see you next week. Same time, same place. Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.
There are few things that make people successful. Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some time to get there. How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you? Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek. Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Now here is Chris Meek. Hello. You can do this week's episode of Next Steps Forward, and I'm your host, Chris Meek. As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us as we focus on personal empowerment, a commitment to wellbeing, and the motivation to achieve more than you ever thought possible. We have another outstanding guest this week. Bill Eddy is a licensed clinical social worker, attorney, and the Director of Innovation at the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California, which I'm very jealous about being in San Diego, but I'm not going to lie. He earned his bachelor's degree in psychology from Case Western Reserve University, his Master of Social Work from San Diego State University, and his Juris Doctorate from University of San Diego School of Law. He has extensive expertise with conflict resolution and high conflict personalities. His professional experience includes roles at Pepperdine University School of Law, Newcastle University School of Law, National Conflict Resolution Center, National Judicial College, and various counseling and psychiatric institutions. Bill Eddy is also a prolific writer. His numerous books include Five Types of People Who Can Ruin Your Life, The New World of Adult Bullies, It's All Your Fault, and Don't Alienate the Kids, Raising Resilient Children While Avoiding High Conflict Divorce. He's the co-author of a four-book BIFF series, It's All Your Fault at Work, Managing Narcissists and Other High Conflict People, and Dating Radar, Why Your Brain Says Yes to the One Who Will Make Your Life Hell. I love that title. We could spend an entire hour on each of those topics, so this is gonna be a lot of fun and illuminating conversation. And with that, Bill Eddy, welcome to Next Steps Forward. Thanks so much, Chris. Glad to be on. It's a pleasure to have you here. This is a very unique conversation we're having today, and so I'm really looking forward to it. Something new and different on the show. I was eager to have this conversation after seeing a story about your book, The New World of Adult Bullies. Bullies of any kind rob so many people of their well-being, personal empowerment, mental health, and even their identities, but we always think that adult bullies should know better than that they behave that way. As you've written, bullying is no longer just a school issue, and it's become widespread among adults. What's changing our culture to make adult bullying more visible and acceptable?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Well, I think the biggest change is really through our media, of all forms, showing images of bullying behavior, having you hear voices of bullying behavior, and that in many ways, these are training. They're entertaining for adults, but training for kids. And I think what we're seeing is our whole culture is training people towards bullying behavior. If you want something, you probably can't just ask for it, so you've got to bully somebody in order to get it. And that's not a really good sign, and that's why I say bullies are increasing in society, especially over the last 10, 20, maybe 30 years.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
You say you can't just ask for it, and that just struck a bell with me here. My oldest daughter just graduated from college a few weeks ago, and the person giving the keynote speaker says, part of her message was, you don't know unless you ask for it. So has the culture just changed that much?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
I think it's changing, but I also think part of this is personalities, and that some people's personalities lack empathy, lack remorse, lack emotional control, self-control, and so they engage in more bullying behaviors. But because the culture is giving all these images and sounds of bullying, they're more comfortable with bullying behavior, and someone that could kind of go either way may be more likely to go into bullying because it just seems like the way you do things today. So I won't say that everybody is becoming a bully, but I think there's a cultural shift towards bullying that we need to rein in the more people recognize it.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
And as you talk about that cultural shift, are people who are becoming bullies just say, hey, I want to become a bully, or is it innate, or is it a learned trait?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
I think for some people, what I call high-conflict personalities, people with those, to some extent it is innate for some of them that they have personalities kind of born with tendencies this way. For other people, it's what becomes automatic. We repeat what our parents say as adults to kids, and we go, where did that come from? But we learned it at some point. And likewise, I think when people are in difficult situations, things come out of their mouths, not that they really intended, but that they learned somewhere. And I think that's what we're seeing, that if somebody criticizes you, rather than go, I'll have to think about that, is go, well, look at you, buddy. And so our cultures kind of reinforce that kind of behavior. But again, it depends on the person. Some people are more susceptible to becoming bullies than others, I think.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I mentioned how children learn it from someplace, and we just forget as parents that they're always listening, they're always watching, and it's just- They record everything. Absolutely. Absolutely. Now they've got the phones to do it, too. Right. So how do adult bullies differ from childhood bullies? Is it about power, personality, a lack of consequences, or are all bullies the same?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Well, I think it is different. First of all, I want to say, I believe that all children try out bullying, maybe with a sibling, maybe on the playground. And for some people, they try it once, they get punched in the face, and that's it. They're not going to do that again. Other people get away with it, but they don't have friends, so they realize this isn't going to work very well. So I would say, while every child experiments with bullying, 90% don't take that into adulthood. The 10%, and this is numbers that I just have a sense of, about 10% do carry this behavior into adulthood, and by then, it's more refined. One of the biggest differences I see is that adult bullies are much more manipulative. They know how to say things to be cruel. They know how to manipulate people into situations where they can then take advantage of them. And I think, for example, dating relationships, someone who's going to engage in domestic violence doesn't start there on the first date, but maybe six months into the relationship, they start going, what did you say to me? And there's a slap or something. So I think that the big difference is adults are more manipulative, are more intentional. They may really think it through. Some bullying schemes are pretty well thought out, others are just impulsive. And some bullies regret it and say, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that. But there's a lot that go, well, I was justified after what you said or what you did. So they're more effective at being bullies, I would say.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
What types of adult bullies did your research identify? Are there people who are bullies all the time and with everybody, and people who are only bullies in certain situations or in certain relationships?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Well, it seems that there's the whole range. Some people really do seem to be bullies all the time and they get a reputation and they also may engage in criminal activity. I see a lot of criminal activity as bullying and a fair percentage of people get caught at that, may do some time in prison or at least go to jail briefly. So I think there's that. There's types that surprise people. This person seems reasonable and most of the time they are reasonable, but there's this one behavior or one situation that they really let it out in. A lot of what I looked at was patterns of bullying. People who don't just do it with one person, they do it with several people. And that's, I think, the most common bullies, that it's a pattern of behavior that comes from them. And by the way, isn't caused by their target or victim, but they'll say it's the victim's fault. I had to do this because of what you said or what you did. But it's patterns of behavior and often narrow range of patterns of behavior. And that's why I think it's easier to spot these folks once you're around and go, hey, that's someone I'm going to steer clear of, because I've seen what he said to Jane, what he said to Bob, and I don't want to be part of that.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
How does one go about researching bullies? Did you say, hey, you look like a bully, can I do some research on you, or did he not know?
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Well, what's interesting is I've been working as a therapist for 12 years, then a family lawyer for really 15 years, then a mediator focused on that 15 years. And so I've just seen it in my cases. I've seen couples where one person's bullying the other and what the dynamics of that are. Certainly in family court, you see a fair amount of bullying behavior, and it isn't just by the parties to the case. Some of it's by professionals, and that's particularly concerning. But some professionals are attracted to roles like being a lawyer or something like that because then they can be a bully under the guise of, oh, I'm just representing my client. The fact that I lied about the other party really doesn't matter. I've got to be a zealous advocate for my client. So I've seen, I would say this really comes from a lot of observation, but it's been a topic that's always fascinated me, especially because I was a mental health professional first, learned about personality disorders, which most people don't know much about. I was trained in that in 1980 in my training to be a child and family therapist. And so I started seeing that in legal disputes and in mediations. And so that's kind of my fascination with bullies is they have these predictable patterns of behavior that most people don't know about.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
You often emphasize that many adult bullies have high conflict personalities. What are the personality traits that fuel bullying behavior in adults?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Well, it seems to me there's five general patterns and these are associated, well, let me back up. First say, when I talk about high conflict personalities, I talk about people with a repeated pattern of conflict behavior that's preoccupied with blaming others, has a lot of all or nothing thinking, often unmanaged emotions, which you may or may not see, but they're driving their behavior. And then extreme behaviors, they'll do things 90% of people would never do. So I think about high conflict personalities, kind of subcategories of those are five personality disorders. Not everybody with these personality disorders is a high conflict person. Not everybody who's a high conflict person has these, but the five basic types seem to be, first of all, the narcissistic type. And people today say everybody's a narcissist because they may be self-centered or something, but narcissistic personality disorder is much more about being a superior person and putting other people down. It's really being in a relationship with them can be very uncomfortable and hurtful. So that personality tends to be a drive to prove they're superior by putting down the people around them, whether it's in the workplace, in relationships, their kids, et cetera. So they're invested in putting people down, that kind of bully. Then there's the antisocial bully who really enjoys dominating other people. It's like, and I think this is the personality most likely to be inborn, and this is more genetic tendencies. Someone's got this kind of parent. They may have these tendencies and these are the hardest to change, but they may be more mean and cruel because this is who they are. They're much more likely to be in physical fights, to be physically abusive, dominating people, maybe even in the workplace, getting into fights, street fights, bar fights, all of that, the antisocial personality. The borderline personality, and this is confusing to people, people are hearing more about it, mostly wide mood swings, but also sudden and intense anger. And we see most of this in family relationships and whether it's domestic violence or some other kind of verbal negativity, this personality, and this personality wants to feel close and comfortable, but if they feel their relationships threatened, then they can become very aggressive and dangerous sometimes. Then there's another, the histrionic personality, dramatic, will tell stories, make up stories, get people in trouble. They like the drama. And then people with more paranoid personalities who really believe there's conspiracies out to get them, that they can't advance in their career because other people at work are sabotaging them or that their wife or husband are having lots of affairs and things when none of that is true. So these are subtypes, and not everybody with these personality disorders is a high conflict person, but the high conflict people seem, and I'm talking about maybe hundreds of cases where I've seen these same patterns repeat and repeat.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
You mentioned social media at the top of the show, obviously it's created new avenues for bullying. How does the shield of social media, in some cases it's complete cloak of anonymity, encourage high conflict personalities to lash out?
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Oh, it really, there's no restraint. And that's one of the problems for people with high conflict personalities. They lack self restraints. And so what we're doing is not only have we lifted a lot of restraints, but we're also showing bad behavior. And so they're encouraged by that. And so on social media, people know what to do. You blast the other person and many, many, you know, threads or email chains, et cetera. It's only four or five interactions before people start saying, you're an idiot. And the other person says, no, you're the idiot. And it's just downhill from there. So unfortunately, this is a platform that allows our worst behavior to come out. And what we're learning, and schools are learning this, and parents are learning this, is we have to set limits. You can't have unrestrained relationships. No one's going to stay with somebody that calls them an idiot all the time. And so that's the, like you said, the cloak of anonymity feeds that. And it's interesting, there's a study, and I talk about it in the Bullies book, that they wanted to see is everybody becoming more hostile online? And what they found is no, that most people aren't, but that the people who are, are also the people who were bullies offline, and that reasonable people get out of the social media conversations because they're not comfortable. So it looks like most of the people on some of those conversations are, in fact, bullies. And so fortunately, there's still a small percentage of people that are bullies, but they're dominating society in many ways, and certainly dominating social media.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Why do enablers, whether they're bystanders, organizations, or entire systems, yield power to adult bullies instead of just standing up to them?
Speaker 3 (17:40):
You know, this is fascinating. Part of it is because they don't see the bullying, that the people at the top of the organizations see someone who's charming, and energetic, and performing at least according to what that person says, but they're not hearing from the people under that person. So you may have a middle manager who's terrorizing his staff, and yet charming the people above him, and everyone goes, oh, so-and-so's so great, you know, he's so good, doing so well. So part of it, I think, is a conning process, that people get conned by bullies. And when I said at the beginning that adult bullies are more manipulative, I think that's a big part of that, because they've learned how to get away with a lot by how to present themselves to the people in charge. So I think a lot of organizations tolerate bullying, partly because they don't know about it, but another thing is, most of us as adults, we're raised to be responsible for ourselves, not to be setting limits on everybody else around us. And yet, we're learning, we need to learn skills of setting limits on other people's interpersonal behavior, especially as it's directed towards us. So we need to get more comfortable saying, wait a minute, you can't keep talking to me that way. If you do, I'm ending this conversation. Okay, you kept talking to me that way, so I'm hanging up, goodbye, click. So I think we're learning slowly that we really have to have a world that sets limits on bullying.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Have you seen this trend change post-COVID? And by that, I mean, during COVID, everyone got much softer, kinder, gentler, for lack of a better phrase, and now it seems like forever ago, it was five years ago, but now you're talking about this, and has that started to be more like a hockey stick in terms of growth?
Speaker 3 (19:47):
What I'd like to say is that with COVID, it immediately started getting worse. And let's take the workplace. I assume people aren't seeing each other, there's going to be less bullying, yet the research, and there was a survey in 2021 by the Bullying Institute, which people didn't know existed, but it's a workplace bullying institute. And they did a survey and they found that online bullying doubled, really increased, so that there was less in-person bullying, but the online bullying outstripped the in-person bullying that existed before. And I think this is that anonymity that you were talking about, that even though it's people you know criticizing you online from the workplace, they're not face-to-face with you. And so they blurred out things that they might've thought before, but not blurred it out. So that happened. Then in families, domestic violence immediately increased, partly because people were trapped together. Also, there wasn't work, they weren't going anywhere, and so frustrations about work, maybe even being laid off, some people were venting that. We know when people are laid off, domestic violence goes up. So that already increased just in the first year of COVID. The thing I think that didn't happen right away that's happened since COVID was for kids and such, where they lost some of their social skills, and so were more likely to bully people when they got back together face-to-face, harder to share, harder to listen, and do all of that. So between immediately and after COVID, yes, definitely an increase. And the end isn't in sight unless we set limits, which is like what schools are doing, where they take phones away at the beginning of the day and give them back at the end of the day. Things like that are what I think we'll end up seeing over the next few years.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
How can bystanders or even coworkers respond effectively to workplace bullying without becoming targets themselves?
Speaker 3 (22:18):
It's tricky. And what I recommend in the Adult Bullies book is that people do something really small and simple. You don't have to gear up for a major confrontation and say, hey, buddy, you've got to change your behavior. You're really messing up. You're treating people badly, all that. Just say like, that's enough, Joe, or cut it out, or give her a break. All you have to do, you can say that and then walk away, just so they know that somebody else is watching and doesn't approve. Because a lot of bullies get encouraged when people around seem to be watching in a neutral way, not negatively, or actually encouraging them. Let me say that at this point, one of the things that bullies are good at is getting other people to participate in the bullying, is spreading rumors, doing things that get other people to gang up on individuals. In the workplace, they call it mobbing. But in other settings, that's certainly one of the problem behaviors that adult bullies are much better at than kid bullies.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
You talk about the need for structural solutions and not just personal resilience. What are those structural solutions?
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Well, what's interesting is I think employers, my understanding is very few, there's very few laws against bullying. Laws against bullying in the workplace pretty much don't exist in the US. There may be some small pockets here and there, whereas a lot of other countries have that, Australia, some countries in Europe, et cetera. I think we need what we have with sexual harassment, that that's illegal. In the workplace, you can't sexually harass someone, whereas you can bully them. I think we need to expand that a little bit. One of the cases in my book is from Australia, where a company was sued for $600,000 because of a supervisor bullying an employee. They worked together in a tight setting, just the two of them, and he was constantly picking on her and harassing her. That really was considered bullying and violated the anti-bullying laws in Australia. What's interesting though, and I like the Australia example, is that they hold executives responsible, and they may have to pay out of their own money if they're aware of bullying and don't do anything about it. I think institutions, that's the kind of approach that's needed, but it doesn't have to be reinventing the wheel. We already have it now around sexual harassment. I think it's just expanding it would be a good step.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
That's interesting. I never thought about the company manual or company policy and bullying. Like you said, there's sexual harassment, so you just kind of think naturally there's got to be something in there. It's sort of like a parallel issue, if you will, but that's fascinating that not many places have that.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Right, and one thing about bullying that I found, and there's a study in healthcare that showed that men mostly bullied men and women mostly bullied women. While I don't know of a study across the board with adults like that, we think of sexual harassment as men harassing women primarily, but occasionally women harassing men, but the same sex stuff doesn't get attention because it's not considered sexual harassment, and yet there's a lot of men and a lot of women getting harassed by their same gender.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Have there been any studies that show who does more harassment, men versus women?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
All the studies I've seen are about particular settings, and that's where the healthcare setting, I don't know what they compared, one was more than the other, but that there was a fair amount of female on female harassment, mostly by administrators to people beneath them, and people I know, I've heard more stories from nurses saying how they're harassed by the people or bullied by the people above them or even amongst their peers than I have about men being bullied, but we know it exists. So I think it really depends on the nature of employment. We know in other occupations, police, law, military, that these are occupations that tolerate more bullying than the average occupation, and therefore it goes on in both directions.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
There's an old expression that applies to some bullies in the workplace, and that is, they kiss up and kick down. The meaning is that they suck up to their superiors and abuse and bully their co-workers and subordinates. Why do so many adult bullies look competent, charismatic, or even caring at times to the people they aren't bullying, and what makes them so hard to spot until it's too late?
Speaker 3 (27:57):
It's exactly because of that ability to really con people, to put on a show, to be charming, and charm is actually a warning sign. We tell people in dating, as someone that's super charming, you need to check out. I mean, there are some super charming people, but there's a lot of bullies who are super charming until they have you committed to them. Then all this stuff comes out. So I think that's kind of part of the adult manipulation and conning that makes it hard to find and root out. Just over and over again, I do a lot of consultation for people in divorce cases and workplace cases, neighbor disputes, sometimes political city councils and school boards. One of the most frustrating things for the individual who's being harassed or bullied is that the people around them think that that person is really great. And so it's an uphill climb to say, wait a minute, that person isn't so great. They're conning you. What I teach is focus on behavior and teaching people what the behaviors are you're experiencing. So they can see, oh, well, that behavior is not good. That behavior is not good. Oh, maybe that person isn't so special. One other thing I want to add though, is a lot of employers tolerate high performing employees and managers because they think we need their high performance and we don't want to lose that. But the reality is that studies show that a high performer who's also abusive is worse than having someone who's just a high performer. And that there's many high performers who aren't bullies, who aren't harassing, etc. So that's important. Employers tolerate, I'd say from everything I've read as a lawyer with appeals court cases and other cases is a lot of organizations wait two or three years too long to say, okay, this person really needs to be gone from this organization.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
You're right that adult bullies often play the victim. How can we spot when playing the victim is actually a manipulation tactic and that someone really is a bully, basically a wolf in sheep's clothing?
Speaker 3 (30:31):
A lot of it is just looking under the surface is, is that really true? What's interesting is by playing the victim, bullies often emotionally hook people to feel sorry for them and to put blinders on. And so they say, oh, I've been treated so terrible. You know, you won't believe how bad I've been treated by this person or this organization. And so they, they get you emotionally and father's like, oh, that's terrible. I want to help you. What can I do? And I know as a lawyer, I always have to watch out for that because people go to lawyers to represent them against organizations, against former spouses, against neighbors, et cetera, with a story to tell. And the story pulls on your heartstrings. And yet we've learned bullies. And I mentioned earlier, antisocial bullies are really good at conning people into taking their side and, and saying, I want to be the knight in shining armor for you. And then at some point you find out, whoa, I'm on the wrong side here. So I think a healthy skepticism is warranted today for everybody, but especially when someone wants you to take up their cause, make sure that it's the right cause.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
What are some practical ways to protect yourself from adult bullies, and especially in situations where you can't walk away like a job or a family relationship?
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I think a lot of managing the relationship is, is first of all, figuring out what boundaries you can have, what boundaries you need, and, and not engaging. That's a mistake a lot of people make is they engage with bullies and argue with them. You shouldn't do that. You're being a jerk. Can't you see what you're doing? And bullies enjoy that. Bullies enjoy that. They, they like having people upset with them because now you're emotional and not as rational and, you know, it's fun for them. It's, they, they like that emotional interchange and, you know, maybe I shouldn't say it's fun for them, but it's familiar for them because that's how they've learned to be in life is, is to be in confrontation. That's, that's part of how bullies feel alive is to be confronting people and maybe dominating them and feeling that. So don't engage, engage the minimum necessary. And think in terms of setting limits, what you need to do. And that's part of the book is, is making credible threats, setting limits, imposing consequences. If you keep doing that, I'm going to no longer help you with the such and such project, or I'm, I'm not going to talk to you further if you keep doing X, Y, Z. So a lot of it's about setting boundaries, setting limits, keeping an arm's length, don't engage too much. Often what you say though, to a bully is to be careful that you're not inciting them. So, you know, one thing I've found when I teach people is use the word respect. A lot of bullies are really in some way looking for respect. And so find something you can respect. Maybe they're good at their job. Say, I respect the work you're doing. That was a great presentation last week. And now I've got to go and get to work on my project. So, you know, you kind of limit your engagement. But if you can, you know, if there's something you can respect that often calms down a bully and makes them less aggressive. And maybe makes you less likely to be a target for them. Do bullies confront people for sport?
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Or is it just sort of their everyday life pattern?
Speaker 3 (34:35):
I think it depends on which kind of bully. When I talked about anti-social bullies, I think that for them, some of them, at least, that it is for sport. That just the process of dominating other people, upsetting other people, feeling the power of destroying somebody else's life for its own sake. And like I said, that's more likely an inborn trait. There's a percent of people like that. For others, say, borderline bullies with the mood swings, they want to feel attached. And when they feel their attachments threatened, then they're impulsive and anger and hurtful. And yet they often regret some of that. So it really depends on which kind of bully you're dealing with.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Some listeners right now may be wondering, am I the bully? And if you're a bully, can you really be oblivious to that fact? And what signs should someone look for in themselves to ensure that they're not engaging in bullying behavior without realizing it?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
It's a great question. And first of all, I'd say most bullies don't really believe they're bullies. They're just doing what you have to do to get on in life. They think, see, I'm just being normal. Look at how people treat me. I have to say what I did. I have to hit him. I have to do whatever I did. So that's part of the distorted thinking that bullies tend to have. If someone is wondering, am I the bully? That's a really healthy sign. Because when you're reflecting on yourself, then you can adapt and change and improve your behavior and improve your relationships. So I'd say that's less often, but that's a really good sign. And one thing that people can look at is what kind of feedback do I get? What do people look like when I act the way I act? Do they look afraid? Do they look upset with me? Reading body language is one of the things we learn almost from day of birth, that this helps us understand how we're doing in relationships. And that lack, you know, social media doesn't have the reading body language, which is part of why people get off track with that. So I think just realizing the impact you have, ask yourself, do I make a lot of you statements or do I make a lot of I statements? You know, I feel, I want versus you did and you shouldn't have done and you, you, you. It's one of the easiest ways to see. If you say you more than you say I, you may be slipping into that bullying. But a lot of us just ask people, how are we doing? How am I coming across? You know, I value our relationship. I'm just checking in. Is there anything I've done that's offended you? And let me know.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
In your experience, what makes certain workplaces more vulnerable to enabling bullies, especially when they're in leadership roles?
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Especially when, what about leadership? When they're in leadership roles. Oh, when they're in leadership roles. Did you say certain occupations? I'm going to. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Is there any certain occupation that is more enabling for bullies versus others?
Speaker 3 (38:06):
I think that, well, first of all, I mentioned police, military and law because they attract and allow behavior that borders on bullying. So I would say that there's probably more in these professions. How much is hard to say. Overall, what I see is kind of a spectrum, a range that if you have an organization that's too tightly run, you may get, someone has to be a bully to get anybody's attention. Or on the other hand, and more common is an organization that are too loosely run. And so bullies get away with a lot and may rise in the organization to dominate a lot of the groups within that organization. So the ideal is a balanced organization. It has structure, roles, consequences, positive feedback. A well-run organization has the least bullying. A real rigid top-down leadership, then you run into trouble. And like I mentioned, like the military, there's a lot of military leaders trained to do a really good job at not bullying and not allowing bullying so that they can support everybody. That's an intentional organization around interpersonal behavior. You got a lot of, say, small businesses where you have untrained people and they don't know what to do or they overreact to bullies and bullies get away with a lot. So it's not so much the type of field as much as the type of management. I might mention with High Conflict Institute, we have a training. We call it new ways for work. It's skills for work, new ways for work for leaders. Because leaders today are saying, what do we do? There's so much going on, or I'm a new leader. You know, what can I do to succeed? So we certainly see that in support leaders who want to learn good balanced management.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Paul, and to that point, we've mentioned your books several times. Where can people find your books?
Speaker 3 (40:28):
They're all on our website, highconflictinstitute.com. And they're also on Amazon and Barnes & Noble and independent bookstores. So they're out there. Most of my books are eBooks also. So you don't have to carry them around.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
And if someone wanted to reach out to you for a training program, how can they get in touch with you?
Speaker 3 (40:50):
They can come to our website and sign up. We list training programs. We have individual webinars, like an hour that's useful. But we also have live trainings that we do every month or two. We have what we call our new ways methods. New ways means new skills in this today's environment. So we have new ways for work coaching for employees, new ways for work for leaders. We also have new ways for families going through divorce and new ways for couples and families where intact families want better skills, raising the kids, et cetera. So yeah, so we're doing a lot of that and feeling good about that.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
You have a very unusual blend of experiences, both a lawyer and therapist. I don't know if I've, I would say this shows a show first. I think you're the first lawyer therapist I've met. What drew you to conflict resolution and how those disciplines converge?
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Well, what's interesting is I was drawn to conflict resolution first. I got involved in a community mediation center in San Diego in the mid 1980s. And I said, you know, I think mediation is the career for me. Where's the jobs? And there really weren't jobs in mediation, mediating disputes. There was a volunteer program, but I wanted a job in that. And I saw that families, of course, had a lot of conflict. So I decided to get a master's in social work and become a child and family therapist and did that for 12 years. But in the background, I still liked mediation and did volunteer mediations. And I said, someday, I think I really do want to do this full time. And lawyers are starting to do mediation. And so I'll go to law school. So I did. But in law school, I realized lawyers as lawyers can do a lot of conflict resolution, settling cases on the courthouse steps, things like that. So I figured I'm going to practice family law for a couple of years, as well as do my mediation practice. Well, after 15 years of practicing family law, I finally stopped that and just did mediation. So it really started with conflict resolution. And I think that's really been the theme throughout my counseling and practice of law representing client experience. And that's what's put this all together. Because I can see high conflict has to do with personalities, not issues. And that surprises a lot of people. But I can see that over and over and over again.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
I mentioned at the beginning of the show that you've co-authored a four-book series about the BIFF method, Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm. How'd you develop the BIFF method and how and when should we deploy it in the workplace?
Speaker 3 (43:56):
Great question. I can tell you exactly when. It was March of 2007. I was giving one of the first seminars that I was doing with my business partner who became the co-founder of High Conflict Institute with me in 2008. So in 2007, we're doing a seminar for family law professionals. And there was a couple judges there. And in the middle of the seminar, one of the judges raises her hand and says, what can we do about these horrible emails that divorcing parents write to each other? And since I'd been a therapist and was now a lawyer at that point, I said, well, they really have to be brief. Because I'd already learned I was coaching my clients. And they just need to be about information. And they should have a friendly tone. And they said, oh, well, that's B-I-F. That spells BIFF. If you had another F, then you'd have the name BIFF. And I said, well, other F would probably be firm. You need to end the conversation. Don't let it just keep going back and forth, back and forth. And that's how BIFF was born. And started teaching it to people. And then wrote the first book on it. Trademarked the term. And so you're right. Now we've got four books on that method. The original BIFF book. Then we have BIFF for co-parents in divorce. We have BIFF at work. And we have BIFF for lawyers. A lot of people don't know, but some of the worst emails are what lawyers write to each other. How did they ever let you practice law? What were you thinking when you wrote this bill? Things like that. And there'll be more BIFF books to come. Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
If I make it that far, I'll be married 25 years this August. But your book, Dating Radar, Why Your Brain Says Yes to the One Who'll Make Your Life Hell, caught my eye because I'm wondering if the one who'll make someone's life hell always falls into one of the five categories of high conflict personalities. Is the one always going to be either narcissistic, borderline, paranoid, antisocial, histrionic, or a combination of all those traits?
Speaker 3 (46:21):
My experience is that they always fit into one of those five categories. And it's kind of uncanny. I keep looking for a new category. But I think this is part of human nature. These are exaggerations of human traits. And so I haven't seen any that don't have one of these personalities as a pattern of behavior. And that's what makes them not that hard to recognize. And after doing close to 2,000 divorces as a mediator and as a lawyer and as a therapist, I wanted to help people not have to go through this. Because so many people said, I didn't realize. Or there were warning signs before the wedding. But I figured time and love will heal all wounds and things like that. So that's why we wrote the book, to really let people know those aren't necessarily true with these folks. And this may be 10% of society that people just don't know about and should learn about. We know a lot about alcoholism and addiction. But personality disorders are about 10% of the adult population. And I'd say high conflict people have about a 50-50 overlap with personality disorders. So they're also about 10% of people. And people need to know. They need to know patterns to look for. Because the patterns aren't usually that unusual or complicated. But people with these patterns of behavior do make efforts to cover them up. So people need to take, we say you should wait at least a year before you really commit. Because it may take six to 12 months for these patterns of behavior to reach the surface.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
TIM LARKIN It's funny you say a year. I'm laughing because a good friend of mine, his daughter's been dating somebody for six or nine months now. But he says you have to wait four seasons. And so it's the same concept. As the year, go through four seasons with each other. See how you react during spring and winter and all that. So that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
ROBERT That's a good way to put it. Because those settings, you never know when things are cold or really hot.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
TIM LARKIN Exactly. So back to that with the one. What happens in the brain during early attraction to override good judgment?
Speaker 3 (48:49):
ROBERT It's complicated. But I think in many ways we have, and I don't lay this out in the book as well as I'm going to describe it right now because what I've learned since then. But it seems that it helps to think of ourselves as having a lower mind and a higher mind. And that the lower mind we share with all mammals. And that we have these primitive emotional systems. We have fear. We have rage. We have caring. We have play. We have seeking. But we also have lust. And these are pure emotions. And we see animals act on these pure emotions. A raging bull without any tempering of rage. Well, we also humans fortunately have a higher mind, which should keep this stuff in check. But sometimes we get conned. And so we go, you know, my lower mind really likes this guy. And he's handsome and strong and says all the right things. So I'm going to just kind of go with that. And yet he's saying all the right things on purpose because he's going to stop saying all the right things on your wedding night. And that's when you're going to be surprised. And by the way, in that book, we did an online survey, got about 300 responses. And several people say the change came on my wedding night. It's like, now you're mine. And it's going to be different now. You know, birdwatching. I was never into birdwatching. I just, you know, pretended I was. So I'm not going birdwatching anymore. Things like that. And I'm in charge. I'm in charge of the finances now, whatever. So it's predicting these patterns of behavior, helps people spot them, I think, and signs of them. And anyway, so it's kind of an interplay between the parts of our mind that just really like somebody and the parts of our mind that say, be careful, be careful.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
You've gone through 2,000 divorces, which you mentioned. You've dealt with different conflict situations. How do you personally stay centered and emotionally balanced when you're working with combative or manipulative individuals?
Speaker 3 (51:23):
A few things. First of all, for some reason, this stuff is fascinating to me. And so of the 2,000 divorces, 1,500 were divorce mediations and about 500 as a lawyer. And I would often be in mediations where I go, wow, I wonder how this is going to turn out. And I really wondered. And it's like, I'm going to try everything I know and see if it works. But I love learning. And somehow I got into this. My father was a scientist and my mother basically was a social worker. So I kind of became a social scientist. But I really love figuring this out and helping people. So part of it is because it's fascinating to me. I do keep learning and wondering how things will turn out. That helps me not get too much into it personally. So I also memorize some phrases that I repeat before I go into a meeting or mediation. Like, it's not about me. So if they're really angry with each other. And I've had mediation where both people turn to me and say, Bill, you're not helping. And I'm like, oh, OK, well, what do you suggest that we do now then? Well, we don't know. But I know it's not about me. And that makes it easier to not absorb it. I'm not responsible for their outcome. I'm only responsible for doing my part. So as a mediator, I can facilitate discussions, but I can't force agreements on people. Other phrases, change how they think, forget about it. Because high conflict people have a narrow way of thinking that they repeat and repeat and repeat. What else? Anyway, one also is getting away from it all. And so getting outdoors, going for walks, going hiking, traveling, going on vacation, getting away, but especially getting out into nature where things can be peaceful. You hear birds singing and the trees rustling.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
So being human.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
Being human, yeah. And enjoying it and thriving on that and balancing this. I might mention as a mediator, people say, how could you do, you know, I used to do two mediations a day. So how could you do that? And they said, well, two thirds of my mediations weren't high conflict cases. And so that made a difference. So I don't drown myself in high conflict. I try to keep a balance.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
Bill Eddy, Director of Innovation at the High Conflict Institute and author of numerous books. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you, Chris. I really enjoyed this. No, it was a pleasure. I'm Chris Meek, run of time. We'll see you next week. Same time, same place. Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.
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