April 1, 2025 • 54 mins
In this powerful episode of Next Steps Forward, host Dr. Chris Meek sits down with Dr. Marcel van der Watt, the president of the National Center on Sexual Exploitation (NCOSE), to discuss his remarkable career and the global fight against sexual exploitation. With over 22 years of experience, Dr. van der Watt brings expertise from his background as a police investigator, hostage negotiator, and criminal case consultant. Together, they dive into the devastating impact of pornography, especially on young minds, and the alarming rise of online sexual exploitation. Dr. van der Watt sheds light on how pornography is reshaping relationships, desensitizing youth, and potentially leading to more violent behaviors. He also provides insights into how easy access to these harmful materials is impacting children, and shares effective strategies for parents to protect their kids in the digital age.
The conversation also explores the important work of the NCOSE, including their efforts in policy advocacy, legal action, corporate accountability, and survivor support. Dr. van der Watt discusses the TAKE IT DOWN Act, which aims to combat online sexual exploitation, and the center’s annual Dirty Dozen list, highlighting the biggest corporate enablers of exploitation. Tune in for this eye-opening discussion on the complex and urgent issue of sexual exploitation, and learn what steps we can all take toward change.
About Dr. Marcel van der Watt: As President of the National Center on Sexual Exploitation, Marcel van der Watt (Ph.D.) brings over 22 years of expertise in combating the interconnected criminal economies of organized crime, human trafficking, and sexual exploitation. Marcel has earned global recognition for his leadership, investigative expertise, and research contributions. His extensive background as a police investigator, hostage and suicide negotiator, and criminal case consultant continues to inform and inspire his work today. Marcel has consulted in and provided expert court testimony in several sex trafficking cases, briefed members of the US Congress on issues related to online criminality, and engaged with both the Presidency and the Multi-Party Women’s Caucus in South Africa’s Parliament on matters related to implicit harms-,myths-, and laws associated with the sex trade. As a keynote speaker and published author, Marcel has shared his expertise on international stages, training professionals from diverse disciplines across over 30 countries. His deep commitment to justice is rooted in his personal faith in Jesus Christ. Married to his best friend Karolien, Marcel finds great joy in seeing others thrive, pursue their dreams, and hone their talents. He is passionate about celebrating and protecting the inherent dignity and value of every individual, inspiring them to live life to its fullest potential.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
There are few things that make people successful.
(00:08):
Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some
time to get there.
How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you?
Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek.
Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.
(00:30):
Now here is Chris Meek.
Hello.
You've tuned in this week's episode of Next Steps Forward, and I'm your host, Chris Meek.
As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us.
Next Steps Forward is committed to helping others achieve more than ever while experiencing
greater personal empowerment and wellbeing.
Our guest today is Dr. Marcel Van Der Watt.
As president of the National Center on Sexual Exploitation, Marcel Van Der Watt brings more
(00:52):
than 22 years of expertise in combating the interconnected criminal economies of organized
crime, human trafficking, and sexual exploitation.
Marcel has earned a global recognition for his leadership, investigative expertise, and
research contributions.
His extensive background as a police investigator, hostage and suicide negotiator, and criminal
case consultant continues to inform and inspire his work today.
(01:15):
As a keynote speaker and published author, Marcel shares his expertise on international
stages to train professionals from diverse disciplines across more than 30 countries.
Dr. Marcel Van Der Watt, welcome to Next Steps Forward.
Thank you, Chris.
Thank you for having me, and hello to your viewers.
It's an absolute pleasure and honor to have you here.
(01:35):
We mentioned before the show how this is such a huge topic for me and for my listeners,
and so thank you for what you do, and thank you for taking time to talk to us today.
There are so many places we could start a conversation, and I'd originally tended to
dive into the harmful effects of pornography later in our conversation, but there was a
shocking and disturbing article titled Sex Without Women by Caitlin Flanagan in The Atlantic
(01:56):
last week.
It begins with the question, quote, what happens when men prefer porn, end quote, and discusses
how the overwhelming prevalence of online pornography has changed relationships between
young men and young women.
Flanagan writes, watching online porn has become most adolescents' first sexual experience.
The average 14-year-old boy today has seen more hardcore porn than all the American fighting
(02:19):
forces in the Second World War, end quote.
And then she goes on, because of the internet's power to desensitize people and wear down
their natural responses to shocking things, and because of the way these algorithms work,
young people quickly proceed to more and more extreme videos.
And as it has always been, these earliest experiences of sexual events pass deeply into
their sense of what sex should be, end quote.
(02:42):
Can you pick up that thread and take us further into that question of what happens when men
prefer porn, and what's going on with teenagers and porn?
Well I think, yeah, it's a sobering statement, and just the vignette that you used there,
Chris.
But I mean, as a parent, obviously it's completely understandable to feel alarmed, you know,
(03:02):
because easily kids stumble into the world of online pornography, and as you rightfully
say, a lot of these exposures begins at a very, very young age.
And you know, the research is also very clear about the risks and the harms of pornography,
(03:23):
and it's never just a benign viewing of obscene content.
But there's very real impact on the brain, and the way we men view the world, and obviously
there's a separate conversation about women as well.
There's also new evidence that suggests that there's an increasing pornography consumption
(03:49):
among women as well, which is also something that we, you know, you could probably draw
a correlation or nexus with increasing number of women.
We've seen recently some of these female teachers also being, you know, apprehended
for sexual abuse complaints against, you know, scholars, so there's something to unpack just
(04:12):
on that issue when it comes to women and pornography consumption.
But just back to your question, very real world effects, Chris, and it never stays there.
There's also evidence suggesting and showing how people act out on that, you know, behaviorally,
the correlation with sexual aggression, and also the content of the pornography and the
(04:35):
different themes that we see in pornography is really nauseating and extremely problematic.
And you know, now we've read a lot over the last two, three years about Pornhub and, you
know, the realities and the crimes associated with this massive pornography host, just the
(04:56):
criminal content on there from child sexual abuse material, bestiality, rape videos.
So you know, it's tragic, but also people viewing that, it's not benign.
And a lot of that is internalized, and there's enough research showing how people act out
(05:16):
and also the link with sexual aggression.
So deeply problematic, Chris.
Well, and this article I just quoted really hit me because, you know, my wife and I have
a son who literally just turned 13 a week ago.
And so he's right there at that age.
And then you touched about how some female teachers have been getting arrested and caught
(05:37):
and indicted for things that they've done with students.
Just over a year ago, there was a big FBI sting in South Florida called March Sadness,
the time with March Madness for men's basketball.
33 people were arrested, teachers, high school coaches, members of clergy.
People who are in your community, people you trust your children with every day.
(05:59):
And it shows that it can happen in your community.
And so I think just having this conversation, this dialogue, I want people to open their
eyes, open their ears, and to realize it is happening in your front and backyard.
No one is, you know, going to avoid this.
Yeah.
You know, coming back to children, I mean, children are, you know, digital natives, you
know, surrounded by devices, smartphones, tablets, laptops, gaming consoles, and smart
(06:22):
TVs.
And, you know, those, you know, those tools, I mean, they are wonderful and just, you know,
innovation, human innovation, ingenuity, which allows us to create these things.
But they are also, you know, they also do act as gateways to, you know, to the Internet.
You know, we've published a one-page research document about two or three years ago where
(06:46):
we talk about the most dangerous playground is literally nowadays in the pockets of children.
And you know, hardcore pornography is really is readily available, it's frequently violent,
and it's poorly controlled.
And I mean, you know, we all know if we think about the formative years and, you know, just
(07:06):
the different developmental stages of children and how the brain develops, you know, the
impact is significant.
So you know, I think we should all be far, far more serious and indignant about these
things.
So these are very, very real existential risks and harms and threats that's, yeah, that's
(07:28):
literally in our pockets.
You know, again, as a parent of a teenager, are there parental controls that we can put
on their devices?
I know I Googled, you know, how to put on parental controls when my son got an iPhone,
but they're smarter than us.
We know that.
They find their workarounds.
Are there things that we can download or have our phones control theirs?
Yeah, Chris, you know, to your point, it's, you know, there's several tools and applications
(07:53):
out there that one can use that's downloadable.
Some of these are free, and some of them comes at a cost.
But the problem here is, unfortunately, this is where we should be pushing back.
You know, this should not be primarily the parents' responsibilities.
(08:13):
To your point is, you know, children grows up in this whole new world, and they are,
you know, more often than not, they are more tech-savvy than parents.
And often these, on a device level, you know, some of these device and app level, sometimes
they make it so difficult and so cumbersome for parents to navigate.
(08:37):
I mean, there was once about two years ago, we did a little internal study, and we kind
of counted about 14 or 15 steps that a parent had to take in order to make a device safe
for the children.
So parents feel overwhelmed, you know, and anxious just about the thought about their
(08:59):
children, even though a child may not yet have a phone, but being among their peers
where phones are so readily accessible.
So it is a problem.
But again, you know, this is again where we need to start holding accountable, you know,
big tech, the technology companies out there.
So and that's the fight in which we are in, but you're right, I mean, again, parents feeling
(09:24):
overwhelmed out there.
Well, parents also need to realize, you know, Johnny and Susie, just because they're cute
little Johnny and Susie, they might be looking for this stuff too.
And so they can't just assume, not my kid, somebody else's.
Absolutely.
And so as great as someone's kid can be, they can also be surfing for different things.
Yeah.
That's very true.
I know you work on the international level, but you mentioned Pornhub specifically and
(09:47):
some other sites like that.
I know there are different state laws where you would need to register your age and I
think sign up with your name or email or something like that, you know, to become verified
if you're approved that you're 18.
Are you working with states on that or should there be a federal policy for that?
And again, this is just your opinion.
Sure.
I mean, you know, again, when we're talking about the issue of age verification, you know,
(10:12):
we have in January 15th, you know, our case was, you know, we acted as an amicus in a
federal matter for age verification.
So I mean, ultimately, you know, this should be something we address on a, you know, on
a national level.
But there's good things that are happening at state level.
(10:36):
And you know, the current court challenge, the Supreme Court challenge, where we are,
one of the, you know, submitted the amicus brief was in response to the Texas age verification
law.
So, you know, so it's common sense.
Age verification should be common sense.
And I think a lot of these big tech companies are pushing back and they are using all of
(11:01):
these, you know, these theoretical arguments about, you know, really theoretical about
free speech.
At the end of the day, when you create something, we think about a vehicle, a motor vehicle,
a car.
You know, if you know that that car is able to do harm with a wittingly unwittingly on
the side of the driver or the engine, where some malfunction can occur, you know, that's
(11:26):
why there are breaks.
That's why there are safety belts.
That's why there are these rigorous, rigorous tests and standards that any product for that
matter goes through in order to make sure that the end user is safe.
And really, age verification is just one of those, you know, and there's so many examples
of the fact that it can become a reality and be non-invasive and not infringe on any of
(11:53):
these rights.
So a lot of these arguments is really purely distractions.
And it's just a way to try and circumvent measures in place to avoid accountability
because ultimately we know that we will succeed on the issue of age verification.
(12:13):
And when that happens, technology companies, developers will be held accountable.
And I think that is the long game that we are in.
And, you know, opposition to these laws are, you know, they also know that ultimately accountability
is going to come and it is going to impact the bottom dollar.
(12:35):
So yeah.
And to your point about the technology companies and their algorithms, you know, it's baseball
season here in the Northeast and my son's starting baseball and a few weeks ago we got
him a new baseball bat.
And the next day I log into wallstreetjournal.com and the top banner was the actual baseball
bat that I bought the day before.
It's crazy, Chris.
(12:55):
And you know what?
I'm going to use one example, a similar example.
About three months ago, I spoke to a family member in South Africa and we spoke about
some random thing.
The issue of a lack of sleep came up and we just had a conversation for about seven minutes.
That was a Saturday morning.
(13:17):
I was walking my dog.
I went up the stairs into the condo and it was about 11 o'clock EST translated to South
Africa.
And it was about 5 p.m. in South African time and there was going to be rugby on.
I was switching to rugby through a YouTube channel exactly.
That's what I got fed.
You know, are you having problems sleeping, you know?
(13:41):
Sleeping medication and doctors and prescriptions and all of these things coming in.
So it's incredible.
It's incredible how, you know, the landscape in which we are and it's deeply, deeply concerning
and problematic.
And no one's immune to it.
Yeah.
Back to Flanagan's article, she also writes, quote, you can't spend 15 minutes scrolling
(14:05):
through a porn site without coming across a video in which a woman seems to be not performing
fear or pain, but actually experiencing those things.
If you're one of those people who enjoy watching coarse sex, you'll never be bored for a second
of your life.
As far as the moral equations of watching porn go, the one that matters is are you excited
by the obvious abuse of women or have you learned to countenance that abuse as a necessary
(14:27):
cost of your own pleasure and which of those is worse, end quote.
Would you speak to the crux of that question and the minds of males who consume that material?
And I say males, you know, men and boys as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it comes also down to a few things.
I mean, one of those are habituation, you know, and, you know, and there's again, there's
(14:49):
plenty of research on this.
You know, it starts off with, you know, there is this word, we don't often use it at Nicosi,
but, you know, it's soft porn or what they call vanilla porn, which is, you know, barely
shows any nudity and the more consumption there is, the more, you know, the more explicit
(15:13):
the material becomes and, you know, the more arousal, you know, happens in tandem with
how, you know, concomitant to how explicit and violent material becomes.
And the brain, you know, obviously the tendencies habituation happens and we also know about
neuroplasticity and how the brain can be altered by things like pornography and what we view.
(15:41):
And yeah, to your point, it's at the end of the day, there really is a demand for these
kind of material.
And again, it never stops there, you know, you actually have people being aroused and
this is very disturbing, but by rape scenes, you know, by things like urophilia and coprophilia
(16:04):
where there are these extreme and obscene, you know, images and content being played
out, even bestiality.
And there's also obviously the whole thing with sexual aggression.
So it's deeply troubling and that's obviously where, you know, problematic pornography use
(16:27):
comes in, where there is this almost this, you know, this physical need that is being
developed in order to watch this material.
And again, it never stays there, there's always some form of acting out that does happen.
So this is not benign.
(16:47):
You know, marijuana has been described as a gateway drug.
You know, we've been talking a little bit about sex offenders.
Is there any evidence that pornography is a gateway drug to acting out antisocial or
violent behavior?
Well, there really is, there is really a lot of evidence that points to that, Chris.
(17:08):
You know, we've, I mean, there's just one example entitled male peer support and sexual
assault, the relationship between high profile high school sports participation and sexual
predatory behavior.
And just one of the things that they found in that study was, you know, men who more
frequently consume pornography more readily expressed a greater desire to act out the
(17:34):
sexual fantasies involving coerced, intoxicated or forced sex and sexual assault.
If they obviously were assured that they would not be caught, you know, that's one of the
studies.
And then there's also, you know, we I'm just giving you a little bit of a heads up here,
but we we've just concluded a study on five ways that pornography and the pornography
(18:01):
industry contributes to sex trafficking.
And I'm just going to list five of them for you.
And I've seen this.
I'll just quickly qualify this, Chris.
I've done, you know, I've infiltrated criminal networks in my work as a former law enforcement
officer and a lot of the work in one way, shape or form, it would involve a brothel,
(18:22):
you know, and I cannot recall ever going into a brothel, you know, as a as a law enforcement
officer where there was not a constant stream of pornography playing either in the reception
area, the lobby area of the brothel or in the different rooms.
(18:43):
So pornography is a consistent and a coherent thread in all cases related to brothels that
I've investigated and responded to, but also sex trafficking, you know, and just some of
the points that that we that we've documented and we'll we'll release this soon as part
of a fact sheet.
But five of them are pornography is used to groom young victims of sex trafficking who
(19:07):
lack sexual experience.
That's the one.
The second one is women, men and girls and boys are sex trafficked for the production
of pornography.
Again, pornography kind of in the middle of this entire ecosystem of abuse and sex trafficking.
The third one, pornography is used as advertising for those sex traffic within prostitution
(19:29):
marketplaces.
And then these two are very interesting.
Pornography fuels the demand for prostitution and as a result, it fuels sex trafficking.
And it's also shown, research has shown that men who are frequently pornography users are
three times more likely to purchase sex than other men.
And then the fifth one, some men who purchase sexual access to people in the sex trade use
(19:54):
pornography to build sexual excitement in advance and may act out what they see in pornography.
And again, I've seen this in my work where, you know, where men would enter into brothels
and they would inquire whether they are, you know, sometimes they ask very explicitly for
(20:19):
somebody that's of a younger age, which inevitably denotes a child and somebody who's willing
to do some extreme things, you know, and some of those I've mentioned, you know, are things
like coprophilia, urophilia, where, and this is things they see on pornography, you know,
where they are sexually aroused by being able to urinate on another person or able to defecate
(20:44):
on another person.
These are extreme things, but nobody is born with that kind of pathology and a lot of this
is absolutely filled and amplified by pornography.
And some of these themes, when we think about strangulation and even race-related themes,
(21:05):
I mean, serial rape, I mean, one of these things in, you know, I've investigated cases
of serial rape, you know, when you have the same offender, well, you don't know yet it's
the same offender, but we talk about modus operandi and we talk about a specific signature
and a signature is that one thing that just literally stands out.
And I remember this one matter that I was involved in is that the person would always
(21:30):
ask, he would walk past a woman and would ask, you know, do you have $2 that you can
borrow me?
And then that would translate into a rape, there's always a strangulation, and there's
always some reference to asking the person to be positioned in a specific way.
And pornography usually fuels these things.
(21:51):
Nobody's born with these ideas or concepts.
So, yeah, it's pervasive and it has very, very real world impact on sexual abuse and
exploitation, Chris.
It's just sickening to listen to all this, and we've got another half an hour of the
show left, so I'm hoping I can make it.
The National Center on Sexual Exploitation has been around for a long, long time, but
(22:15):
many people, and especially people in our audience who live in other countries, may
not be aware of the center.
Would you share its history with us?
Sure, yeah.
So, you know, I think it was in the fall of 1962, an anonymous individual placed sadomasochistic
material on the corner, I think it was on the outside of St. Ignatius School on Manhattan's
(22:37):
East Side.
And what happened then, a 10-year-old child found this material and showed it to other
school children.
So the mother confiscated this material and she brought it to a meeting of mothers, and
as a result, one of Nicosia's, you know, one of our first heroes here was Reverend
(22:58):
Morton Hill, was asked by his superior to look into the matter, to see how widespread
this issue of pornography is, and he then investigated and recruited other religious
leaders to look into the issue of pornography.
So over the years, you know, it started off initially known as Operation Yorkville in
(23:24):
New York, and then, you know, the name went into morality in the media.
And over the years, you know, it was, you know, it was kind of, the focus was, at its
core, was the issue of pornography.
But I think our former leaders and members of Nicosia soon learned that pornography is
(23:45):
this one cog in a system of, as part of a web of sexual exploitation.
So over this past six decades, you know, we've learned that none of these forms of sexual
abuse or exploitation ever exists in his own private universe.
Pornography doesn't, child-on-child sexual abuse doesn't, sex trafficking doesn't, prostitution
(24:09):
doesn't.
All of these in one way, shape, or form overlaps and informs the other.
So over a period of six decades plus, you know, that's been our mission is to unravel
and, you know, expose this web of sexual exploitation.
And this all started in 1962.
And then we became the National Center on Sexual Exploitation in about 2015, and made
(24:35):
it very, very clear that our focus is the web of sexual exploitation.
We have a variety of tactics in which we address this issue.
And that has really been informed by decades of research experience, and also grappling
with the mercurial nature of these issues, and obviously the overlap of modern society
(24:58):
and technology.
So those were the humble beginnings, Chris.
And how has sexual exploitation evolved over those six decades?
And how has the center evolved accordingly to take on the sex industry?
Great question.
So how has it evolved?
I think what we are seeing now is I often speak about the, you know, the globalization
(25:20):
of indifference.
And unfortunately, you know, there's definitely been this surge in indifference, I would argue,
and we see that.
You could definitely draw these inferences from research as well, when online pornography
exploded in the early 2000s.
Where, again, when we talk about how people act out sexual objectification, we often see
(25:46):
this in the media, we see this in modern culture, lyrics in music.
So what we began to see is just this fusion of all things sexual objectification, obscene,
and indifference, you know, because again, to our earlier conversation about what pornography
(26:09):
does to the brain and how that informs real world behaviors.
And that just, you know, that just create this conviction that we need to have a multi-pronged
approach to do this, Chris, you know, so we combat the intersection of sexual exploitation
(26:31):
through corporate advocacy.
We do public policy, civil litigation, research, and then obviously also our parents' center,
which we hope will launch later in this year.
But again, you know, every one of those strategies, you know, the one informs the other, and,
you know, we see that work.
(26:53):
And ultimately, our main focus is the mass scale prevention of sexual exploitation.
And it can be done by using these different prongs, you know, you can actually address
the issue at all the different levels, and ultimately it comes down to a systemic addressing
(27:14):
of the issue of sexual exploitation.
You've mentioned some of the research the center does in the white paper.
Where can people learn more?
Oh, well, you know, all of this is on our website, endexploitation.org.
Please go to that website.
I mean, all our research is there, our publications.
(27:35):
We have some amazing publications coming down the pike.
Just some of our recent publications, you know, revolved around issues like demand reduction,
the role of men in purchasing sexual access to women and children, how to end that.
That was a federal study.
We did that on a National Institute of Justice grant.
(27:55):
And then we have a big, big research project that's launching in the next 35 days.
And that's called Beyond a Fantasy.
And it's on the issue of pornography, but also image-based sexual abuse.
And then we veer into the issue of artificial intelligence and, you know, synthetic materials.
(28:15):
So all of that is available on our website, the National Center on Sexual Exploitation's
website, endexploitation.org.
But our research also appears on academic platforms, Chris, like ResearchGate and academia.edu.
So yeah.
Great.
(28:35):
Thank you for that.
What are the biggest challenges the Center is currently tackling in the fight against
sexual exploitation?
I think some of the biggest challenges at the moment, I think I'm going to just touch
on, again, on, you know, the globalization of indifference, you know, getting people
(28:57):
to see what we've seen and observed and researched over the last six decades.
And I think media, mainstream media, popular culture often is, and the message that people
are bombarded with is totally antithetical to what we see every day in our work.
(29:21):
And, you know, whether it's research, whether it is our civil lawsuits, you know, once you
go into the rudiments of these cases, then you do realize that something like a brothel,
which a lot of people globally, and there's also been a move locally in America to call
(29:42):
for the decriminalization of prostitution, some segments, right?
It's definitely not a widespread view that something like that needs to happen, but there's
constant lobbying in every state for prostitution to become legal or decriminalized.
And they often use these very kind of very romantic, hypholated language, and often,
(30:07):
you know, the pretty woman movie scenario comes across where people can really do this
and sell, you know, their bodies, and it comes at no harm, and that men are just kind of
benign, you know, guys that's just doing what guys normally do.
So there's all of these rape myths that is entirely, you know, there's a lot.
(30:31):
So these two pieces just doesn't correlate or align.
And so that is one of the biggest challenges is having people see from moving people from
a no to a maybe, and from a maybe to a yes, this is a problem.
And yes, I have a responsibility as a parent, as a husband, you know, as a religious spiritual
(30:57):
leader, as a teen, not to entertain, not indulge in these things, because there are
real world consequences.
But you know, so we often find ourselves working against the stream of popular culture.
And what is put out there, so it's a constant kind of these two irreconcilable ideological
(31:22):
framings of what is good, what is right, and what is dignity.
We are in the business of protecting human dignity at its core.
And what the world and mainstream media often sends out is entirely conflicted to that.
You've mentioned how the National Center on Sexual Exploitation takes a multi-pronged
approach to combating sexual exploitation through policy advocacy, legal action, corporate
(31:47):
accountability, survivor support, and public awareness.
I always like to take these one at a time, though I might not have them in the order
of importance.
So first, policy and legislative advocacy, the Take It Down Act.
How does the center work with lawmakers and government agencies to shape policies?
Great question.
So again, we are a nonpartisan organization, so I think that's often, you know, we believe
(32:10):
that has really worked well over the last, you know, 60 plus years, Chris, is the fact
that, you know, we go out of our way to make sure that we, you know, pursue policies where
they are widespread buying.
And that's just on the issue of nonpartisanship.
(32:34):
The issue of the Take It Down Act is just such a great example of unanimous kind of
buying from people on all sides of the political spectrum.
The same with the CDA 230, the Communications and Decency Act, which really gives immunity
(32:56):
to big tech platforms, you know, hosting and perpetuating this content online.
You know, everybody on that, I mean, we were in the Senate Judiciary hearing when these
big technology, you know, CEOs Mark Zuckerberg, X, Twitter, TikTok, when the parents came
(33:17):
into the room and everybody had the pictures of their children, you know, who are 16 forever
or 17 forever, you know, many of them died by suicide.
And that's been very powerful, seeing how we can make a difference by getting people
together into the same room and really listening to parents, you know, listening to those very
(33:41):
real world stories of a child losing their life.
So we try our very best to follow this approach and it's really worked well.
So ultimately, from a public policy perspective, it's fighting bad laws and making sure that
we are able to pass good laws.
(34:03):
And the Take It Down Act is just one of those that we are very, very excited about, yeah.
And how about the new plague that we touched on briefly before about sextortion?
Oh.
I recently read an article, I forget where it was, I think it was People Magazine, about
how teenage boys are the ones with the highest suicide rate right now because they're getting
(34:25):
lured in by people who come off as being a friend and this one particular 14 year old
boy in Wisconsin, it happened with a matter of hours of them luring him in and just him
taking his life.
It's very, very sad, Chris.
So just in a year, I think it's between 2023 and 2024, there was 150% increase in reports
(34:48):
on the issue of sextortion.
So yes, I mean, you know, what this fundamentally comes down to is that somebody, it's usually,
let's say, a young girl befriending somebody on the other side of the line, which could
be a teenage boy.
(35:09):
But this girl isn't really a real person or a real girl, you know, there's a predator.
And we've seen the research, we've worked with, I've personally worked with some of
these criminal networks, you know, Nigerian criminal networks on the African continent.
But more of the recent cases has directly been connected to some of these criminal networks,
(35:32):
you know, so you would have somebody reaching out as purporting to be a 14 year old girl.
There's a relationship starting and then there's a request from the girl, which is obviously
the predator, the perpetrator, for the boy to send explicit images.
(35:53):
Those images are then passed along.
And as soon as that image is submitted, and as soon as that image lands in the, you know,
the proverbial hands of the perpetrator, he makes himself known or not.
But what happens is that's where there is a request for money.
(36:13):
And we're not talking about small, you know, 10 or $20, I mean, $1,000, $3,000, $5,000.
And if that money is not paid over, that these images will then be released to their friends
and their connections.
And we've seen, I mean, Paul Refill, he's an open source intelligence analyst, and he's
(36:36):
done phenomenal work on the issue of sextortion.
And there are several examples, Chris, where a connection with a user, a minor, let's say
a teenage boy, 16 years old, on the one end of the phone, with that connection, let's
say hypothetically at 11 o'clock, that connection was made.
(36:58):
And at 11 o'clock, the report was built.
Five minutes later, the image was sent.
Literally within 20, within 30 minutes later, that child is no more.
So there's so many examples out there of a death by suicide that happens within 20, 30
(37:20):
minutes, 40 minutes, and it's tragic.
You touched earlier by the legal action you're part of with the amicus brief in the Supreme
Court.
You've just touched on corporate accountability, but how about survivor support?
How do you get engaged with that?
You know, how do you connect with the survivors of sex trafficking and pornography, and what
support do you provide?
(37:40):
Great question.
I mean, at the end of the day, we truly believe survivors and their voices and their lived
experiences are extremely important, is unmissable when a targeted and well-informed policy and
new laws are created.
(38:03):
We are not a frontline service provider.
We don't provide a frontline psychosocial services and support to survivors, but we
do include survivors in every aspect of our work.
From a policy perspective, at state level, testifying in support or against a specific
(38:29):
act, we always have survivors at the front end testifying, and we provide that support.
We assist with the briefing and enable survivors to get out there and to get into those very
important platforms and arenas where their voices are to be heard.
And obviously, with our law center, when we talk about our civil litigation, you know,
(38:53):
we are representing survivors or Jane Doe's as we refer to them.
You know, in the X-Videos case, we've got a case against X or Twitter that's still ongoing.
We have the case against, you know, a brothel, two brothels in Nevada.
We are involved with Andrew and Tristan Tate matter, these two influences, that's a separate
(39:18):
conversation as well, very problematic.
But in all of these cases, we have plaintiffs and we represent them.
So that's how we work alongside survivors, representing them and making sure that they
get justice that they deserve.
And also in our research, you know, when we've completed a research study, you know, we would
(39:39):
make sure to make that available to the survivor community to speak into that, you know, and
to poke holes if holes needs to be poked into it.
So it's very important, you know, survivors have that lived experiences and they, you
know, they have that insider perspective that many researchers or advocates or policymakers
simply don't have.
(40:00):
And I always tell people, we all have blind spots and we all don't always know when we
don't know and survivors helps us with that.
And certainly there's public awareness.
Appearing in Next Steps Forward raises public awareness, but we know that that's not enough.
Yeah.
What are your most effective public awareness channels?
What messages do you want to stay with people?
(40:20):
Well, the one that is forthcoming on Thursday and Thursday, we are launching our Dirty Dozen
list, our annual Dirty Dozen list.
And I think one of the first messages, I mean, at a meta level is to say that, man, a world
free from sexual abuse and exploitation is possible.
(40:43):
It's not a pipe dream.
There are very real things that can be done and happen.
And that's on all of these levels, legal, you know, we often talk about the PESTEL model.
Now, PESTEL, it's P-E-S-T-E-L, that's usually the model that we use to do scenario planning.
I've done scenario planning in my life.
(41:05):
And basically what that denotes, you've got the political, the economic, the sociological,
the technological, the economic and the legal environment.
And that in every one of these spheres, that active citizenry is critical.
And the issue of fighting sexual exploitation overlaps in all of these spheres.
(41:28):
So and by addressing all of these spheres through civil litigation, public policy,
corporate advocacy, research and our parent center, that you can fundamentally move the
needle and on a mass scale level, a world free from sexual abuse and exploitation is possible.
So it's not a pipe dream.
(41:48):
So the first thing is for people to know, you can actually do something about this.
This can really happen.
And the other one is that people, parents have immense power in speaking into and hold
accountable big technology platforms.
We know that big technology and big tech, they don't fear law enforcement.
(42:16):
There's very little that they fear.
They don't self-police because nobody's really holding them accountable.
But what they do fear, Chris, is when that day arrives, and it's going to come, where a single
parent can step into a court and provide the evidence of platform A, B or C or D that was
(42:38):
directly, indirectly complicit in a situation of harm that befell a minor and that hypothetically
or real in the case of sex torture ultimately led to somebody's death.
We are not talking about thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars.
These are going to be multi-million dollar claims.
(42:59):
And I think that is something that big tech fears.
And it's not just going to be one parent.
There are going to be countless parents that's going to be empowered to do this.
So the message there to parents is everybody can do something.
You know, active citizenry, you know, be involved with signing these sign-ons and these petitions.
(43:21):
And that's why we are there to hold parents' arms up in their respective journeys and then
grappling with navigating this very, very complex landscape of technology, policy, law,
and again, the globalization of indifference.
Because you need people that sincerely care and that sincerely
(43:42):
vested in bringing about this world that we truly believe in.
You know, and to that point, in today's world, everyone's busy.
Everyone's tugged in a thousand different directions,
but you have to be involved in your children's lives.
Check their phones, check their tablets, whether they're asleep or not,
but make that part of the policy just so you know exactly what's going on to hopefully prevent
(44:05):
some of these sex torture and other types of tragic events.
A moment ago, you mentioned the Dirty Dozen list.
Who is typically on that list?
And are there repeat offenders on there?
Yeah, I mean, you know, we've, again, we've got an entire page for the Dirty Dozen list,
you know, and, you know, everybody's been on the list pretty much, you know,
(44:26):
all technology companies.
I mean, Meta has been on there more than once, you know, Apple, Spotify, TikTok, Cash App.
So, you know, and these are all platforms that we show through actual evidence-based research,
(44:46):
how they enable and perpetuate sexual exploitation on their platforms.
I mean, you know, just one example, and that's also where the Take It Down Act comes in,
you know, where an example would be where, you know, non-consensual image-based sexual abuse
(45:08):
content has been uploaded by a third party on a platform and where a victim who, you know,
who fell victim to that illegal content being uploaded on a platform has tried for months and
even years on end to get that off Chris.
(45:29):
And with, you know, no solution, you know, and literally having to live
knowing that I've actually got a response from some of these platforms saying, well, it doesn't,
you know, it's not against our, you know, our regulations and laws as a company.
(45:51):
So there are some of these examples, and so you can imagine the harm, you know, and the trauma,
it's like this digital tattoo that you carry, and that's where the Take It Down Act will now come in.
And that's about, you know, first and foremost, you know, age verification plays into that,
but also that this content must be removed within 48 hours.
(46:14):
So, yes, but some of the successes we've had over the years, I mean,
those include, we've had transformative victories with Google, Netflix, Yilton worldwide, Verizon,
Walmart, and including the US Department of Defense, you know.
So, you know, the Dirty Dozen list has really had a phenomenal impact.
(46:39):
And just to give you a heads up, this year, we are probably addressing one of the biggest,
biggest giants that if this giant falls, you know, the echo and the reverberation will be felt
globally, but it's a big one.
So I hope some of the viewers and the listeners could join us on Thursday.
(47:03):
And that's endexploitation.org.
That's endexploitation.org, yeah.
And, you know, you can just say NCOSE, N-C-O-S-E, Dirty Dozen list 2025, and it will,
you'll definitely be directed to the website.
So I know that the Take It Down Act has passed the Senate.
(47:26):
Now it's back in the Congress.
Do we expect it to be passed?
Is President Trump going to see this anytime soon?
Who are the cheerleaders on the Hill in both chambers?
Oh, I mean, we are just in awe of Senator Cruz and Klobuchar that championed this.
So massive kudos to them, Chris.
(47:49):
But yeah, I was in the room about three weeks ago when the first lady, Melania Trump, me and
our VP, Dr. Eleanor Gaytan, we were invited to be in the room where she briefed the media.
There was obviously more media in the room than anybody else.
But we were there when she gave her vote of support for the Take It Down Act.
(48:14):
And she did a phenomenal job in just laying out this harm and just the mean-spiritedness
of what is out there.
On both her left and to her right-hand side, she had 10 survivors of image-based sexual
(48:35):
abuse that each in a very, very courageous way shared their own experience with this
illicit content being non-consensually uploaded on these platforms and just the incredible
trauma that goes along with that.
So she almost took in this mother figure.
She was incredibly articulate in how she laid out the problem, but at the same time, just
(49:00):
her generosity of spirit just shone through in the way that she encouraged just these
four young women, young teens that were sitting next to her.
So she's a hero in all of this.
And I think, Eleanor, one of our public policy people mentioned she can't remember ever a
(49:20):
first lady standing up and speaking and giving her support so strongly for a specific piece
of legislation that we hope and believe will pass this year.
We mentioned briefly before the show that people think this doesn't happen in their
neighborhood, that it's only in the shadows, it's not going to affect them.
(49:44):
But how do these people know where to find the sex traffickers right there in their own
communities?
Again, that's where the technology comes in, right?
We know that sex buyers, people that purchase sexual access to women and children and to
other men as well, the way they communicate, there's always an online platform through
which they are able to reach traffickers, pimps, and we all have mobile phones as well.
(50:12):
So it's a criminal ecosystem that allows these crimes to flourish.
But again, just to your point, what is very clear is sex traffickers intentionally offers
children and women to be raped at a price and men, those who purchase sexual access,
(50:37):
intentionally pays to rape.
Women and children, they care precious little in terms of who and how they harm people.
And usually there is an online connection and people talk, people self-organize and
they create these criminal economies, which in their own way self-organize.
(51:01):
But one of our biggest strategies here is the issue of consumer level demand.
And we always say without sex buyers, sex traffickers cannot exist.
It's sex buyers who creates the market forces and it fuels the market forces that creates
the roles of traffickers.
(51:22):
So without a man purchasing sexual access to a woman or child, without that person,
a trafficker cannot exist.
And every sex trafficking act has been paid by a dollar from a male sex buyer.
So I always say sex buyers are the critical missing link in this equation.
(51:49):
Marcel, we only have a few minutes left.
Take us to the end of the show with some words of wisdom and how we can help support your
cause and end this devastating crisis.
Well, I think firstly, I mean, please do follow us on social media.
You know, we are on X, Nekosi is on LinkedIn as well.
(52:11):
They can follow me on LinkedIn as well.
I am on there and I regularly post weekly about the work we do and always take action.
I mean, on our website, again, indexrotation.org, you know, we always have an action page.
Whatever the issues are, if you're going to click on the issue of prostitution or pornography
(52:31):
or child on child sexual abuse, there's always an action page.
It will take you literally 15 seconds to complete one of those actions.
Please do take those actions, but also take hope.
I truly believe, Chris, there's a sleeping giant of common sense that's waking up finally.
And I think when that giant of common sense wakes up, it's going to dispel a lot of rape
(52:55):
myths.
It's going to dispel a lot of ideas in terms of what masculinity is, what fatherhood is,
what leadership is.
And it's also going to dispel this idea that women in pornography enjoys the sex that people
see from the outside looking in, which is not the case.
So I just think that's kind of the very broad framing that I'm using of common sense that I
(53:20):
truly believe will eventually set in.
And I think we could expedite the rousing of that sleeping giant by everybody literally
taking action, you know, on our website, following our social media.
So, yeah, there's hope.
It's not a pipe dream.
This can happen.
Hear that, everybody listening?
(53:41):
Get on the website.
It's time to wake that sleeping giant.
Dr. Marcel Van Der Watt, thank you so much for the important work that you do and really
thank you for being here.
Thank you, Chris.
Thanks for having me.
I'm Chris Meek, run of time.
We'll see you next week.
Same time, same place.
Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.
(54:03):
Thanks for tuning in to Next Steps Forward.
Be sure to join Chris Meek for another great show next Tuesday at 10 a.m.
Pacific Time and 1 p.m.
Eastern Time on the Voice America Empowerment Channel.
This week, make things happen in your life.
(54:40):
you
There are few things that make people successful.
(00:08):
Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some
time to get there.
How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you?
Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek.
Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.
(00:30):
Now here is Chris Meek.
Hello.
You've tuned in this week's episode of Next Steps Forward, and I'm your host, Chris Meek.
As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us.
Next Steps Forward is committed to helping others achieve more than ever while experiencing
greater personal empowerment and wellbeing.
Our guest today is Dr. Marcel Van Der Watt.
As president of the National Center on Sexual Exploitation, Marcel Van Der Watt brings more
(00:52):
than 22 years of expertise in combating the interconnected criminal economies of organized
crime, human trafficking, and sexual exploitation.
Marcel has earned a global recognition for his leadership, investigative expertise, and
research contributions.
His extensive background as a police investigator, hostage and suicide negotiator, and criminal
case consultant continues to inform and inspire his work today.
(01:15):
As a keynote speaker and published author, Marcel shares his expertise on international
stages to train professionals from diverse disciplines across more than 30 countries.
Dr. Marcel Van Der Watt, welcome to Next Steps Forward.
Thank you, Chris.
Thank you for having me, and hello to your viewers.
It's an absolute pleasure and honor to have you here.
(01:35):
We mentioned before the show how this is such a huge topic for me and for my listeners,
and so thank you for what you do, and thank you for taking time to talk to us today.
There are so many places we could start a conversation, and I'd originally tended to
dive into the harmful effects of pornography later in our conversation, but there was a
shocking and disturbing article titled Sex Without Women by Caitlin Flanagan in The Atlantic
(01:56):
last week.
It begins with the question, quote, what happens when men prefer porn, end quote, and discusses
how the overwhelming prevalence of online pornography has changed relationships between
young men and young women.
Flanagan writes, watching online porn has become most adolescents' first sexual experience.
The average 14-year-old boy today has seen more hardcore porn than all the American fighting
(02:19):
forces in the Second World War, end quote.
And then she goes on, because of the internet's power to desensitize people and wear down
their natural responses to shocking things, and because of the way these algorithms work,
young people quickly proceed to more and more extreme videos.
And as it has always been, these earliest experiences of sexual events pass deeply into
their sense of what sex should be, end quote.
(02:42):
Can you pick up that thread and take us further into that question of what happens when men
prefer porn, and what's going on with teenagers and porn?
Well I think, yeah, it's a sobering statement, and just the vignette that you used there,
Chris.
But I mean, as a parent, obviously it's completely understandable to feel alarmed, you know,
(03:02):
because easily kids stumble into the world of online pornography, and as you rightfully
say, a lot of these exposures begins at a very, very young age.
And you know, the research is also very clear about the risks and the harms of pornography,
(03:23):
and it's never just a benign viewing of obscene content.
But there's very real impact on the brain, and the way we men view the world, and obviously
there's a separate conversation about women as well.
There's also new evidence that suggests that there's an increasing pornography consumption
(03:49):
among women as well, which is also something that we, you know, you could probably draw
a correlation or nexus with increasing number of women.
We've seen recently some of these female teachers also being, you know, apprehended
for sexual abuse complaints against, you know, scholars, so there's something to unpack just
(04:12):
on that issue when it comes to women and pornography consumption.
But just back to your question, very real world effects, Chris, and it never stays there.
There's also evidence suggesting and showing how people act out on that, you know, behaviorally,
the correlation with sexual aggression, and also the content of the pornography and the
(04:35):
different themes that we see in pornography is really nauseating and extremely problematic.
And you know, now we've read a lot over the last two, three years about Pornhub and, you
know, the realities and the crimes associated with this massive pornography host, just the
(04:56):
criminal content on there from child sexual abuse material, bestiality, rape videos.
So you know, it's tragic, but also people viewing that, it's not benign.
And a lot of that is internalized, and there's enough research showing how people act out
(05:16):
and also the link with sexual aggression.
So deeply problematic, Chris.
Well, and this article I just quoted really hit me because, you know, my wife and I have
a son who literally just turned 13 a week ago.
And so he's right there at that age.
And then you touched about how some female teachers have been getting arrested and caught
(05:37):
and indicted for things that they've done with students.
Just over a year ago, there was a big FBI sting in South Florida called March Sadness,
the time with March Madness for men's basketball.
33 people were arrested, teachers, high school coaches, members of clergy.
People who are in your community, people you trust your children with every day.
(05:59):
And it shows that it can happen in your community.
And so I think just having this conversation, this dialogue, I want people to open their
eyes, open their ears, and to realize it is happening in your front and backyard.
No one is, you know, going to avoid this.
Yeah.
You know, coming back to children, I mean, children are, you know, digital natives, you
know, surrounded by devices, smartphones, tablets, laptops, gaming consoles, and smart
(06:22):
TVs.
And, you know, those, you know, those tools, I mean, they are wonderful and just, you know,
innovation, human innovation, ingenuity, which allows us to create these things.
But they are also, you know, they also do act as gateways to, you know, to the Internet.
You know, we've published a one-page research document about two or three years ago where
(06:46):
we talk about the most dangerous playground is literally nowadays in the pockets of children.
And you know, hardcore pornography is really is readily available, it's frequently violent,
and it's poorly controlled.
And I mean, you know, we all know if we think about the formative years and, you know, just
(07:06):
the different developmental stages of children and how the brain develops, you know, the
impact is significant.
So you know, I think we should all be far, far more serious and indignant about these
things.
So these are very, very real existential risks and harms and threats that's, yeah, that's
(07:28):
literally in our pockets.
You know, again, as a parent of a teenager, are there parental controls that we can put
on their devices?
I know I Googled, you know, how to put on parental controls when my son got an iPhone,
but they're smarter than us.
We know that.
They find their workarounds.
Are there things that we can download or have our phones control theirs?
Yeah, Chris, you know, to your point, it's, you know, there's several tools and applications
(07:53):
out there that one can use that's downloadable.
Some of these are free, and some of them comes at a cost.
But the problem here is, unfortunately, this is where we should be pushing back.
You know, this should not be primarily the parents' responsibilities.
(08:13):
To your point is, you know, children grows up in this whole new world, and they are,
you know, more often than not, they are more tech-savvy than parents.
And often these, on a device level, you know, some of these device and app level, sometimes
they make it so difficult and so cumbersome for parents to navigate.
(08:37):
I mean, there was once about two years ago, we did a little internal study, and we kind
of counted about 14 or 15 steps that a parent had to take in order to make a device safe
for the children.
So parents feel overwhelmed, you know, and anxious just about the thought about their
(08:59):
children, even though a child may not yet have a phone, but being among their peers
where phones are so readily accessible.
So it is a problem.
But again, you know, this is again where we need to start holding accountable, you know,
big tech, the technology companies out there.
So and that's the fight in which we are in, but you're right, I mean, again, parents feeling
(09:24):
overwhelmed out there.
Well, parents also need to realize, you know, Johnny and Susie, just because they're cute
little Johnny and Susie, they might be looking for this stuff too.
And so they can't just assume, not my kid, somebody else's.
Absolutely.
And so as great as someone's kid can be, they can also be surfing for different things.
Yeah.
That's very true.
I know you work on the international level, but you mentioned Pornhub specifically and
(09:47):
some other sites like that.
I know there are different state laws where you would need to register your age and I
think sign up with your name or email or something like that, you know, to become verified
if you're approved that you're 18.
Are you working with states on that or should there be a federal policy for that?
And again, this is just your opinion.
Sure.
I mean, you know, again, when we're talking about the issue of age verification, you know,
(10:12):
we have in January 15th, you know, our case was, you know, we acted as an amicus in a
federal matter for age verification.
So I mean, ultimately, you know, this should be something we address on a, you know, on
a national level.
But there's good things that are happening at state level.
(10:36):
And you know, the current court challenge, the Supreme Court challenge, where we are,
one of the, you know, submitted the amicus brief was in response to the Texas age verification
law.
So, you know, so it's common sense.
Age verification should be common sense.
And I think a lot of these big tech companies are pushing back and they are using all of
(11:01):
these, you know, these theoretical arguments about, you know, really theoretical about
free speech.
At the end of the day, when you create something, we think about a vehicle, a motor vehicle,
a car.
You know, if you know that that car is able to do harm with a wittingly unwittingly on
the side of the driver or the engine, where some malfunction can occur, you know, that's
(11:26):
why there are breaks.
That's why there are safety belts.
That's why there are these rigorous, rigorous tests and standards that any product for that
matter goes through in order to make sure that the end user is safe.
And really, age verification is just one of those, you know, and there's so many examples
of the fact that it can become a reality and be non-invasive and not infringe on any of
(11:53):
these rights.
So a lot of these arguments is really purely distractions.
And it's just a way to try and circumvent measures in place to avoid accountability
because ultimately we know that we will succeed on the issue of age verification.
(12:13):
And when that happens, technology companies, developers will be held accountable.
And I think that is the long game that we are in.
And, you know, opposition to these laws are, you know, they also know that ultimately accountability
is going to come and it is going to impact the bottom dollar.
(12:35):
So yeah.
And to your point about the technology companies and their algorithms, you know, it's baseball
season here in the Northeast and my son's starting baseball and a few weeks ago we got
him a new baseball bat.
And the next day I log into wallstreetjournal.com and the top banner was the actual baseball
bat that I bought the day before.
It's crazy, Chris.
(12:55):
And you know what?
I'm going to use one example, a similar example.
About three months ago, I spoke to a family member in South Africa and we spoke about
some random thing.
The issue of a lack of sleep came up and we just had a conversation for about seven minutes.
That was a Saturday morning.
(13:17):
I was walking my dog.
I went up the stairs into the condo and it was about 11 o'clock EST translated to South
Africa.
And it was about 5 p.m. in South African time and there was going to be rugby on.
I was switching to rugby through a YouTube channel exactly.
That's what I got fed.
You know, are you having problems sleeping, you know?
(13:41):
Sleeping medication and doctors and prescriptions and all of these things coming in.
So it's incredible.
It's incredible how, you know, the landscape in which we are and it's deeply, deeply concerning
and problematic.
And no one's immune to it.
Yeah.
Back to Flanagan's article, she also writes, quote, you can't spend 15 minutes scrolling
(14:05):
through a porn site without coming across a video in which a woman seems to be not performing
fear or pain, but actually experiencing those things.
If you're one of those people who enjoy watching coarse sex, you'll never be bored for a second
of your life.
As far as the moral equations of watching porn go, the one that matters is are you excited
by the obvious abuse of women or have you learned to countenance that abuse as a necessary
(14:27):
cost of your own pleasure and which of those is worse, end quote.
Would you speak to the crux of that question and the minds of males who consume that material?
And I say males, you know, men and boys as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it comes also down to a few things.
I mean, one of those are habituation, you know, and, you know, and there's again, there's
(14:49):
plenty of research on this.
You know, it starts off with, you know, there is this word, we don't often use it at Nicosi,
but, you know, it's soft porn or what they call vanilla porn, which is, you know, barely
shows any nudity and the more consumption there is, the more, you know, the more explicit
(15:13):
the material becomes and, you know, the more arousal, you know, happens in tandem with
how, you know, concomitant to how explicit and violent material becomes.
And the brain, you know, obviously the tendencies habituation happens and we also know about
neuroplasticity and how the brain can be altered by things like pornography and what we view.
(15:41):
And yeah, to your point, it's at the end of the day, there really is a demand for these
kind of material.
And again, it never stops there, you know, you actually have people being aroused and
this is very disturbing, but by rape scenes, you know, by things like urophilia and coprophilia
(16:04):
where there are these extreme and obscene, you know, images and content being played
out, even bestiality.
And there's also obviously the whole thing with sexual aggression.
So it's deeply troubling and that's obviously where, you know, problematic pornography use
(16:27):
comes in, where there is this almost this, you know, this physical need that is being
developed in order to watch this material.
And again, it never stays there, there's always some form of acting out that does happen.
So this is not benign.
(16:47):
You know, marijuana has been described as a gateway drug.
You know, we've been talking a little bit about sex offenders.
Is there any evidence that pornography is a gateway drug to acting out antisocial or
violent behavior?
Well, there really is, there is really a lot of evidence that points to that, Chris.
(17:08):
You know, we've, I mean, there's just one example entitled male peer support and sexual
assault, the relationship between high profile high school sports participation and sexual
predatory behavior.
And just one of the things that they found in that study was, you know, men who more
frequently consume pornography more readily expressed a greater desire to act out the
(17:34):
sexual fantasies involving coerced, intoxicated or forced sex and sexual assault.
If they obviously were assured that they would not be caught, you know, that's one of the
studies.
And then there's also, you know, we I'm just giving you a little bit of a heads up here,
but we we've just concluded a study on five ways that pornography and the pornography
(18:01):
industry contributes to sex trafficking.
And I'm just going to list five of them for you.
And I've seen this.
I'll just quickly qualify this, Chris.
I've done, you know, I've infiltrated criminal networks in my work as a former law enforcement
officer and a lot of the work in one way, shape or form, it would involve a brothel,
(18:22):
you know, and I cannot recall ever going into a brothel, you know, as a as a law enforcement
officer where there was not a constant stream of pornography playing either in the reception
area, the lobby area of the brothel or in the different rooms.
(18:43):
So pornography is a consistent and a coherent thread in all cases related to brothels that
I've investigated and responded to, but also sex trafficking, you know, and just some of
the points that that we that we've documented and we'll we'll release this soon as part
of a fact sheet.
But five of them are pornography is used to groom young victims of sex trafficking who
(19:07):
lack sexual experience.
That's the one.
The second one is women, men and girls and boys are sex trafficked for the production
of pornography.
Again, pornography kind of in the middle of this entire ecosystem of abuse and sex trafficking.
The third one, pornography is used as advertising for those sex traffic within prostitution
(19:29):
marketplaces.
And then these two are very interesting.
Pornography fuels the demand for prostitution and as a result, it fuels sex trafficking.
And it's also shown, research has shown that men who are frequently pornography users are
three times more likely to purchase sex than other men.
And then the fifth one, some men who purchase sexual access to people in the sex trade use
(19:54):
pornography to build sexual excitement in advance and may act out what they see in pornography.
And again, I've seen this in my work where, you know, where men would enter into brothels
and they would inquire whether they are, you know, sometimes they ask very explicitly for
(20:19):
somebody that's of a younger age, which inevitably denotes a child and somebody who's willing
to do some extreme things, you know, and some of those I've mentioned, you know, are things
like coprophilia, urophilia, where, and this is things they see on pornography, you know,
where they are sexually aroused by being able to urinate on another person or able to defecate
(20:44):
on another person.
These are extreme things, but nobody is born with that kind of pathology and a lot of this
is absolutely filled and amplified by pornography.
And some of these themes, when we think about strangulation and even race-related themes,
(21:05):
I mean, serial rape, I mean, one of these things in, you know, I've investigated cases
of serial rape, you know, when you have the same offender, well, you don't know yet it's
the same offender, but we talk about modus operandi and we talk about a specific signature
and a signature is that one thing that just literally stands out.
And I remember this one matter that I was involved in is that the person would always
(21:30):
ask, he would walk past a woman and would ask, you know, do you have $2 that you can
borrow me?
And then that would translate into a rape, there's always a strangulation, and there's
always some reference to asking the person to be positioned in a specific way.
And pornography usually fuels these things.
(21:51):
Nobody's born with these ideas or concepts.
So, yeah, it's pervasive and it has very, very real world impact on sexual abuse and
exploitation, Chris.
It's just sickening to listen to all this, and we've got another half an hour of the
show left, so I'm hoping I can make it.
The National Center on Sexual Exploitation has been around for a long, long time, but
(22:15):
many people, and especially people in our audience who live in other countries, may
not be aware of the center.
Would you share its history with us?
Sure, yeah.
So, you know, I think it was in the fall of 1962, an anonymous individual placed sadomasochistic
material on the corner, I think it was on the outside of St. Ignatius School on Manhattan's
(22:37):
East Side.
And what happened then, a 10-year-old child found this material and showed it to other
school children.
So the mother confiscated this material and she brought it to a meeting of mothers, and
as a result, one of Nicosia's, you know, one of our first heroes here was Reverend
(22:58):
Morton Hill, was asked by his superior to look into the matter, to see how widespread
this issue of pornography is, and he then investigated and recruited other religious
leaders to look into the issue of pornography.
So over the years, you know, it started off initially known as Operation Yorkville in
(23:24):
New York, and then, you know, the name went into morality in the media.
And over the years, you know, it was, you know, it was kind of, the focus was, at its
core, was the issue of pornography.
But I think our former leaders and members of Nicosia soon learned that pornography is
(23:45):
this one cog in a system of, as part of a web of sexual exploitation.
So over this past six decades, you know, we've learned that none of these forms of sexual
abuse or exploitation ever exists in his own private universe.
Pornography doesn't, child-on-child sexual abuse doesn't, sex trafficking doesn't, prostitution
(24:09):
doesn't.
All of these in one way, shape, or form overlaps and informs the other.
So over a period of six decades plus, you know, that's been our mission is to unravel
and, you know, expose this web of sexual exploitation.
And this all started in 1962.
And then we became the National Center on Sexual Exploitation in about 2015, and made
(24:35):
it very, very clear that our focus is the web of sexual exploitation.
We have a variety of tactics in which we address this issue.
And that has really been informed by decades of research experience, and also grappling
with the mercurial nature of these issues, and obviously the overlap of modern society
(24:58):
and technology.
So those were the humble beginnings, Chris.
And how has sexual exploitation evolved over those six decades?
And how has the center evolved accordingly to take on the sex industry?
Great question.
So how has it evolved?
I think what we are seeing now is I often speak about the, you know, the globalization
(25:20):
of indifference.
And unfortunately, you know, there's definitely been this surge in indifference, I would argue,
and we see that.
You could definitely draw these inferences from research as well, when online pornography
exploded in the early 2000s.
Where, again, when we talk about how people act out sexual objectification, we often see
(25:46):
this in the media, we see this in modern culture, lyrics in music.
So what we began to see is just this fusion of all things sexual objectification, obscene,
and indifference, you know, because again, to our earlier conversation about what pornography
(26:09):
does to the brain and how that informs real world behaviors.
And that just, you know, that just create this conviction that we need to have a multi-pronged
approach to do this, Chris, you know, so we combat the intersection of sexual exploitation
(26:31):
through corporate advocacy.
We do public policy, civil litigation, research, and then obviously also our parents' center,
which we hope will launch later in this year.
But again, you know, every one of those strategies, you know, the one informs the other, and,
you know, we see that work.
(26:53):
And ultimately, our main focus is the mass scale prevention of sexual exploitation.
And it can be done by using these different prongs, you know, you can actually address
the issue at all the different levels, and ultimately it comes down to a systemic addressing
(27:14):
of the issue of sexual exploitation.
You've mentioned some of the research the center does in the white paper.
Where can people learn more?
Oh, well, you know, all of this is on our website, endexploitation.org.
Please go to that website.
I mean, all our research is there, our publications.
(27:35):
We have some amazing publications coming down the pike.
Just some of our recent publications, you know, revolved around issues like demand reduction,
the role of men in purchasing sexual access to women and children, how to end that.
That was a federal study.
We did that on a National Institute of Justice grant.
(27:55):
And then we have a big, big research project that's launching in the next 35 days.
And that's called Beyond a Fantasy.
And it's on the issue of pornography, but also image-based sexual abuse.
And then we veer into the issue of artificial intelligence and, you know, synthetic materials.
(28:15):
So all of that is available on our website, the National Center on Sexual Exploitation's
website, endexploitation.org.
But our research also appears on academic platforms, Chris, like ResearchGate and academia.edu.
So yeah.
Great.
(28:35):
Thank you for that.
What are the biggest challenges the Center is currently tackling in the fight against
sexual exploitation?
I think some of the biggest challenges at the moment, I think I'm going to just touch
on, again, on, you know, the globalization of indifference, you know, getting people
(28:57):
to see what we've seen and observed and researched over the last six decades.
And I think media, mainstream media, popular culture often is, and the message that people
are bombarded with is totally antithetical to what we see every day in our work.
(29:21):
And, you know, whether it's research, whether it is our civil lawsuits, you know, once you
go into the rudiments of these cases, then you do realize that something like a brothel,
which a lot of people globally, and there's also been a move locally in America to call
(29:42):
for the decriminalization of prostitution, some segments, right?
It's definitely not a widespread view that something like that needs to happen, but there's
constant lobbying in every state for prostitution to become legal or decriminalized.
And they often use these very kind of very romantic, hypholated language, and often,
(30:07):
you know, the pretty woman movie scenario comes across where people can really do this
and sell, you know, their bodies, and it comes at no harm, and that men are just kind of
benign, you know, guys that's just doing what guys normally do.
So there's all of these rape myths that is entirely, you know, there's a lot.
(30:31):
So these two pieces just doesn't correlate or align.
And so that is one of the biggest challenges is having people see from moving people from
a no to a maybe, and from a maybe to a yes, this is a problem.
And yes, I have a responsibility as a parent, as a husband, you know, as a religious spiritual
(30:57):
leader, as a teen, not to entertain, not indulge in these things, because there are
real world consequences.
But you know, so we often find ourselves working against the stream of popular culture.
And what is put out there, so it's a constant kind of these two irreconcilable ideological
(31:22):
framings of what is good, what is right, and what is dignity.
We are in the business of protecting human dignity at its core.
And what the world and mainstream media often sends out is entirely conflicted to that.
You've mentioned how the National Center on Sexual Exploitation takes a multi-pronged
approach to combating sexual exploitation through policy advocacy, legal action, corporate
(31:47):
accountability, survivor support, and public awareness.
I always like to take these one at a time, though I might not have them in the order
of importance.
So first, policy and legislative advocacy, the Take It Down Act.
How does the center work with lawmakers and government agencies to shape policies?
Great question.
So again, we are a nonpartisan organization, so I think that's often, you know, we believe
(32:10):
that has really worked well over the last, you know, 60 plus years, Chris, is the fact
that, you know, we go out of our way to make sure that we, you know, pursue policies where
they are widespread buying.
And that's just on the issue of nonpartisanship.
(32:34):
The issue of the Take It Down Act is just such a great example of unanimous kind of
buying from people on all sides of the political spectrum.
The same with the CDA 230, the Communications and Decency Act, which really gives immunity
(32:56):
to big tech platforms, you know, hosting and perpetuating this content online.
You know, everybody on that, I mean, we were in the Senate Judiciary hearing when these
big technology, you know, CEOs Mark Zuckerberg, X, Twitter, TikTok, when the parents came
(33:17):
into the room and everybody had the pictures of their children, you know, who are 16 forever
or 17 forever, you know, many of them died by suicide.
And that's been very powerful, seeing how we can make a difference by getting people
together into the same room and really listening to parents, you know, listening to those very
(33:41):
real world stories of a child losing their life.
So we try our very best to follow this approach and it's really worked well.
So ultimately, from a public policy perspective, it's fighting bad laws and making sure that
we are able to pass good laws.
(34:03):
And the Take It Down Act is just one of those that we are very, very excited about, yeah.
And how about the new plague that we touched on briefly before about sextortion?
Oh.
I recently read an article, I forget where it was, I think it was People Magazine, about
how teenage boys are the ones with the highest suicide rate right now because they're getting
(34:25):
lured in by people who come off as being a friend and this one particular 14 year old
boy in Wisconsin, it happened with a matter of hours of them luring him in and just him
taking his life.
It's very, very sad, Chris.
So just in a year, I think it's between 2023 and 2024, there was 150% increase in reports
(34:48):
on the issue of sextortion.
So yes, I mean, you know, what this fundamentally comes down to is that somebody, it's usually,
let's say, a young girl befriending somebody on the other side of the line, which could
be a teenage boy.
(35:09):
But this girl isn't really a real person or a real girl, you know, there's a predator.
And we've seen the research, we've worked with, I've personally worked with some of
these criminal networks, you know, Nigerian criminal networks on the African continent.
But more of the recent cases has directly been connected to some of these criminal networks,
(35:32):
you know, so you would have somebody reaching out as purporting to be a 14 year old girl.
There's a relationship starting and then there's a request from the girl, which is obviously
the predator, the perpetrator, for the boy to send explicit images.
(35:53):
Those images are then passed along.
And as soon as that image is submitted, and as soon as that image lands in the, you know,
the proverbial hands of the perpetrator, he makes himself known or not.
But what happens is that's where there is a request for money.
(36:13):
And we're not talking about small, you know, 10 or $20, I mean, $1,000, $3,000, $5,000.
And if that money is not paid over, that these images will then be released to their friends
and their connections.
And we've seen, I mean, Paul Refill, he's an open source intelligence analyst, and he's
(36:36):
done phenomenal work on the issue of sextortion.
And there are several examples, Chris, where a connection with a user, a minor, let's say
a teenage boy, 16 years old, on the one end of the phone, with that connection, let's
say hypothetically at 11 o'clock, that connection was made.
(36:58):
And at 11 o'clock, the report was built.
Five minutes later, the image was sent.
Literally within 20, within 30 minutes later, that child is no more.
So there's so many examples out there of a death by suicide that happens within 20, 30
(37:20):
minutes, 40 minutes, and it's tragic.
You touched earlier by the legal action you're part of with the amicus brief in the Supreme
Court.
You've just touched on corporate accountability, but how about survivor support?
How do you get engaged with that?
You know, how do you connect with the survivors of sex trafficking and pornography, and what
support do you provide?
(37:40):
Great question.
I mean, at the end of the day, we truly believe survivors and their voices and their lived
experiences are extremely important, is unmissable when a targeted and well-informed policy and
new laws are created.
(38:03):
We are not a frontline service provider.
We don't provide a frontline psychosocial services and support to survivors, but we
do include survivors in every aspect of our work.
From a policy perspective, at state level, testifying in support or against a specific
(38:29):
act, we always have survivors at the front end testifying, and we provide that support.
We assist with the briefing and enable survivors to get out there and to get into those very
important platforms and arenas where their voices are to be heard.
And obviously, with our law center, when we talk about our civil litigation, you know,
(38:53):
we are representing survivors or Jane Doe's as we refer to them.
You know, in the X-Videos case, we've got a case against X or Twitter that's still ongoing.
We have the case against, you know, a brothel, two brothels in Nevada.
We are involved with Andrew and Tristan Tate matter, these two influences, that's a separate
(39:18):
conversation as well, very problematic.
But in all of these cases, we have plaintiffs and we represent them.
So that's how we work alongside survivors, representing them and making sure that they
get justice that they deserve.
And also in our research, you know, when we've completed a research study, you know, we would
(39:39):
make sure to make that available to the survivor community to speak into that, you know, and
to poke holes if holes needs to be poked into it.
So it's very important, you know, survivors have that lived experiences and they, you
know, they have that insider perspective that many researchers or advocates or policymakers
simply don't have.
(40:00):
And I always tell people, we all have blind spots and we all don't always know when we
don't know and survivors helps us with that.
And certainly there's public awareness.
Appearing in Next Steps Forward raises public awareness, but we know that that's not enough.
Yeah.
What are your most effective public awareness channels?
What messages do you want to stay with people?
(40:20):
Well, the one that is forthcoming on Thursday and Thursday, we are launching our Dirty Dozen
list, our annual Dirty Dozen list.
And I think one of the first messages, I mean, at a meta level is to say that, man, a world
free from sexual abuse and exploitation is possible.
(40:43):
It's not a pipe dream.
There are very real things that can be done and happen.
And that's on all of these levels, legal, you know, we often talk about the PESTEL model.
Now, PESTEL, it's P-E-S-T-E-L, that's usually the model that we use to do scenario planning.
I've done scenario planning in my life.
(41:05):
And basically what that denotes, you've got the political, the economic, the sociological,
the technological, the economic and the legal environment.
And that in every one of these spheres, that active citizenry is critical.
And the issue of fighting sexual exploitation overlaps in all of these spheres.
(41:28):
So and by addressing all of these spheres through civil litigation, public policy,
corporate advocacy, research and our parent center, that you can fundamentally move the
needle and on a mass scale level, a world free from sexual abuse and exploitation is possible.
So it's not a pipe dream.
(41:48):
So the first thing is for people to know, you can actually do something about this.
This can really happen.
And the other one is that people, parents have immense power in speaking into and hold
accountable big technology platforms.
We know that big technology and big tech, they don't fear law enforcement.
(42:16):
There's very little that they fear.
They don't self-police because nobody's really holding them accountable.
But what they do fear, Chris, is when that day arrives, and it's going to come, where a single
parent can step into a court and provide the evidence of platform A, B or C or D that was
(42:38):
directly, indirectly complicit in a situation of harm that befell a minor and that hypothetically
or real in the case of sex torture ultimately led to somebody's death.
We are not talking about thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars.
These are going to be multi-million dollar claims.
(42:59):
And I think that is something that big tech fears.
And it's not just going to be one parent.
There are going to be countless parents that's going to be empowered to do this.
So the message there to parents is everybody can do something.
You know, active citizenry, you know, be involved with signing these sign-ons and these petitions.
(43:21):
And that's why we are there to hold parents' arms up in their respective journeys and then
grappling with navigating this very, very complex landscape of technology, policy, law,
and again, the globalization of indifference.
Because you need people that sincerely care and that sincerely
(43:42):
vested in bringing about this world that we truly believe in.
You know, and to that point, in today's world, everyone's busy.
Everyone's tugged in a thousand different directions,
but you have to be involved in your children's lives.
Check their phones, check their tablets, whether they're asleep or not,
but make that part of the policy just so you know exactly what's going on to hopefully prevent
(44:05):
some of these sex torture and other types of tragic events.
A moment ago, you mentioned the Dirty Dozen list.
Who is typically on that list?
And are there repeat offenders on there?
Yeah, I mean, you know, we've, again, we've got an entire page for the Dirty Dozen list,
you know, and, you know, everybody's been on the list pretty much, you know,
(44:26):
all technology companies.
I mean, Meta has been on there more than once, you know, Apple, Spotify, TikTok, Cash App.
So, you know, and these are all platforms that we show through actual evidence-based research,
(44:46):
how they enable and perpetuate sexual exploitation on their platforms.
I mean, you know, just one example, and that's also where the Take It Down Act comes in,
you know, where an example would be where, you know, non-consensual image-based sexual abuse
(45:08):
content has been uploaded by a third party on a platform and where a victim who, you know,
who fell victim to that illegal content being uploaded on a platform has tried for months and
even years on end to get that off Chris.
(45:29):
And with, you know, no solution, you know, and literally having to live
knowing that I've actually got a response from some of these platforms saying, well, it doesn't,
you know, it's not against our, you know, our regulations and laws as a company.
(45:51):
So there are some of these examples, and so you can imagine the harm, you know, and the trauma,
it's like this digital tattoo that you carry, and that's where the Take It Down Act will now come in.
And that's about, you know, first and foremost, you know, age verification plays into that,
but also that this content must be removed within 48 hours.
(46:14):
So, yes, but some of the successes we've had over the years, I mean,
those include, we've had transformative victories with Google, Netflix, Yilton worldwide, Verizon,
Walmart, and including the US Department of Defense, you know.
So, you know, the Dirty Dozen list has really had a phenomenal impact.
(46:39):
And just to give you a heads up, this year, we are probably addressing one of the biggest,
biggest giants that if this giant falls, you know, the echo and the reverberation will be felt
globally, but it's a big one.
So I hope some of the viewers and the listeners could join us on Thursday.
(47:03):
And that's endexploitation.org.
That's endexploitation.org, yeah.
And, you know, you can just say NCOSE, N-C-O-S-E, Dirty Dozen list 2025, and it will,
you'll definitely be directed to the website.
So I know that the Take It Down Act has passed the Senate.
(47:26):
Now it's back in the Congress.
Do we expect it to be passed?
Is President Trump going to see this anytime soon?
Who are the cheerleaders on the Hill in both chambers?
Oh, I mean, we are just in awe of Senator Cruz and Klobuchar that championed this.
So massive kudos to them, Chris.
(47:49):
But yeah, I was in the room about three weeks ago when the first lady, Melania Trump, me and
our VP, Dr. Eleanor Gaytan, we were invited to be in the room where she briefed the media.
There was obviously more media in the room than anybody else.
But we were there when she gave her vote of support for the Take It Down Act.
(48:14):
And she did a phenomenal job in just laying out this harm and just the mean-spiritedness
of what is out there.
On both her left and to her right-hand side, she had 10 survivors of image-based sexual
(48:35):
abuse that each in a very, very courageous way shared their own experience with this
illicit content being non-consensually uploaded on these platforms and just the incredible
trauma that goes along with that.
So she almost took in this mother figure.
She was incredibly articulate in how she laid out the problem, but at the same time, just
(49:00):
her generosity of spirit just shone through in the way that she encouraged just these
four young women, young teens that were sitting next to her.
So she's a hero in all of this.
And I think, Eleanor, one of our public policy people mentioned she can't remember ever a
(49:20):
first lady standing up and speaking and giving her support so strongly for a specific piece
of legislation that we hope and believe will pass this year.
We mentioned briefly before the show that people think this doesn't happen in their
neighborhood, that it's only in the shadows, it's not going to affect them.
(49:44):
But how do these people know where to find the sex traffickers right there in their own
communities?
Again, that's where the technology comes in, right?
We know that sex buyers, people that purchase sexual access to women and children and to
other men as well, the way they communicate, there's always an online platform through
which they are able to reach traffickers, pimps, and we all have mobile phones as well.
(50:12):
So it's a criminal ecosystem that allows these crimes to flourish.
But again, just to your point, what is very clear is sex traffickers intentionally offers
children and women to be raped at a price and men, those who purchase sexual access,
(50:37):
intentionally pays to rape.
Women and children, they care precious little in terms of who and how they harm people.
And usually there is an online connection and people talk, people self-organize and
they create these criminal economies, which in their own way self-organize.
(51:01):
But one of our biggest strategies here is the issue of consumer level demand.
And we always say without sex buyers, sex traffickers cannot exist.
It's sex buyers who creates the market forces and it fuels the market forces that creates
the roles of traffickers.
(51:22):
So without a man purchasing sexual access to a woman or child, without that person,
a trafficker cannot exist.
And every sex trafficking act has been paid by a dollar from a male sex buyer.
So I always say sex buyers are the critical missing link in this equation.
(51:49):
Marcel, we only have a few minutes left.
Take us to the end of the show with some words of wisdom and how we can help support your
cause and end this devastating crisis.
Well, I think firstly, I mean, please do follow us on social media.
You know, we are on X, Nekosi is on LinkedIn as well.
(52:11):
They can follow me on LinkedIn as well.
I am on there and I regularly post weekly about the work we do and always take action.
I mean, on our website, again, indexrotation.org, you know, we always have an action page.
Whatever the issues are, if you're going to click on the issue of prostitution or pornography
(52:31):
or child on child sexual abuse, there's always an action page.
It will take you literally 15 seconds to complete one of those actions.
Please do take those actions, but also take hope.
I truly believe, Chris, there's a sleeping giant of common sense that's waking up finally.
And I think when that giant of common sense wakes up, it's going to dispel a lot of rape
(52:55):
myths.
It's going to dispel a lot of ideas in terms of what masculinity is, what fatherhood is,
what leadership is.
And it's also going to dispel this idea that women in pornography enjoys the sex that people
see from the outside looking in, which is not the case.
So I just think that's kind of the very broad framing that I'm using of common sense that I
(53:20):
truly believe will eventually set in.
And I think we could expedite the rousing of that sleeping giant by everybody literally
taking action, you know, on our website, following our social media.
So, yeah, there's hope.
It's not a pipe dream.
This can happen.
Hear that, everybody listening?
(53:41):
Get on the website.
It's time to wake that sleeping giant.
Dr. Marcel Van Der Watt, thank you so much for the important work that you do and really
thank you for being here.
Thank you, Chris.
Thanks for having me.
I'm Chris Meek, run of time.
We'll see you next week.
Same time, same place.
Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.
(54:03):
Thanks for tuning in to Next Steps Forward.
Be sure to join Chris Meek for another great show next Tuesday at 10 a.m.
Pacific Time and 1 p.m.
Eastern Time on the Voice America Empowerment Channel.
This week, make things happen in your life.
(54:40):
you
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