March 4, 2025 • 22 mins
Overtourism is one of those sprawling topics that everybody in the travel business has opinions on. Solutions are a bit more complicated, but let's dig in with tourism taxes, diversionary tactics, bans on cruise ships, the rise of "de-marketing," tax credits for better business practices, caps on hotel construction, and other tools that make our lives and our travel plans a bit less frantic.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi everybody.
It's no Show.
I'm Matt Brown, joined asalways by Jeff Borman.
We are talking today aboutovertourism.
It's a sprawling topic thateverybody in the travel business
has opinions on.
Tourism as an industry makes uparound 10% of global GDP.
In 2023, 27 million new jobswere in the travel and tourism
(00:28):
sector alone.
According to the World Traveland Tourism Council.
Much of overtourism you know,as we've been talking about this
leading up to this episode ismarketing.
Right, you know Venice, it'samazing, but it sort of got
enshrined as amazing Things thatyou think you have to do when
you visit a place.
I have to go to Times Square,and I always beg people when
(00:49):
they come to New York City donot go to Times Square.
Most New Yorkers universallyrecognize it as the least
attractive place to visit.
That doesn't stop a singleperson from wanting to go see
Times Square when they come here.
They have to go.
Jeff, what do you think aboutus?
What do you think aboutovertourism?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I think, first of all , the 27 million new jobs we
need to identify.
These are not just jobs.
These are very meaningful jobs.
Most Americans may not alwayssee it this way, but when a
hotel is built outside the US,these are jobs that directly
lift people from poverty.
They require no degree, noskill set beyond a great smile
(01:26):
or work ethic.
Opening a large hotel inBarranquilla, colombia, would
directly pull a thousand people,and indirectly many more, into
a better existence right, abetter life for those people.
As global brands reach thosedestinations, a culture of
racial and gender equality areoften introduced.
Health benefits and educationprograms and things we take for
(01:50):
granted in the West areintroduced.
So it's not just 27 millionjobs.
There are 27 very significantjobs for affecting lives.
I think that needs to be at thestart of the conversation over
tourism recognizing that themassive humanitarian benefits of
tourism are really what'sdriving what we're now calling a
problem.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Let's dig into some of the ways that regions and
cities and public-private groupsare trying to tackle over
tourism.
Let's just get some of these.
Let's do a little table settinghere before we dive in, and one
of those ways is tourism tax.
Now, I'm not opposed to atourism tax per se.
(02:30):
If you're going to visit Venice, you pay an extra $20 at the
city gates to come in and Ithink on paper that sounds like
an easy way to generate revenue,but it does squeeze budget
travelers even more and it makesexpensive places even more
expensive, and I feel like it'sa band-aid.
(02:51):
What do you think about tourismtax?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I think we kind of have to step up a level.
On the tourism tax.
I'm not against it.
Why are you doing it right?
What are you trying to affectby creating a tax In New York
City?
I was recently at the fabulousCWA Hotel and I got my bill.
It was a 20% tax when you addedup all the New York City taxes
(03:18):
and especially the Javits Centertax, I think, or something like
that that they're calling itright.
So directly pulling money fromnon-locals into the local
coffers?
It's a classic way to do it.
Listen, florida has no stateincome tax, mainly because they
have a sales tax and tourismtaxes.
Well, if you're a local inFlorida, a resident of Florida,
(03:39):
many people move there for thereason of not paying a state
income tax.
You can't have it both ways.
So I think you just got torecognize the two together,
right?
How are you going to fund allof this wonderful infrastructure
that people come to visit?
It's either out of the locals'pockets or out of the tourists'
pockets, and it's a lot easierto tax the person that doesn't
get to vote.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
There are three destinations that we've been
reading a lot about that arehandling over tourism in three
very different ways, Jeff.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthose.
First up is Venice.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Right, they recently introduced an entry fee for
those who want to visit just oneday and see its iconic canals,
and the overnight tax is also ineffect.
Supposedly it's been about ayear.
There's been zero impact to theamount of foot traffic, and
that's what concerns Venetianson a daily basis.
Right, they've raised money todeal with the infrastructure
toll that tourism takes on itsfragile little city, but it's
(04:34):
not reducing tourism, it's notreducing foot traffic and so
it's not improving theirlifestyle.
Other places are trying similarapproaches.
Right, they're setting limitsin Marseille, in France,
introducing a reservation system, to the number of people who
can visit national parks.
They're aiming to protect acove because it's sensitive and
vulnerable and degraded right.
(04:54):
But then in Europe you go theother direction.
You have what Amsterdam isdoing, where, instead of a tax,
they are simply reducing flightcapacity at Schiphol Airport.
Right, fewer people coming in.
That's how you do it.
They have put an outright banon new hotel construction.
Those things like Malaga.
Spain is doing somethingsimilar, only they're banning
(05:15):
short term rentals completely.
So those different measures aremore likely, I think, to give
the locals what they're lookingfor, whereas perhaps the tax
just raises the funds, but it'snot helping day-to-day Venetians
.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Right Like if you're traveling.
If you decided you want to goto Venice, an extra 20 bucks is
not going to stop you for the-.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
No.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Not a chance and in fact, most people don't realize
they're paying it because if youarrive by cruise, it's a part
of the cruise ticket, right,when you book the package that's
there.
If you arrive by plane intoSchiphol, if you're still lucky
enough to get on one of thereduced flights, you're going to
pay that, and in fact, weactually pay this everywhere.
I think we did an episode withMatt Cornelius years ago and I
(06:00):
think we talked on that episodeabout how all these fees and
airport fees they're in theprice of your airline ticket
anyway.
Right, it's already bundled up,so you don't have to pay an
airport tax on arrival, butyou're still paying one.
I like what Amsterdam is doing,but I think their measure
directly attacks what they'retrying to do.
Right, and one of the reasonsAmsterdam and locals are
(06:25):
frustrated with too much tourismis also the type of tourists
that they're getting.
It's not just the volume thevolume is a problem but it's the
type of tourists who are comingspecifically for the red light
district and they're looking topull back on that.
And so one of the thingsthey've done too even though
there's a little bit outside of,you know, over tourism is
(06:49):
they're only allowing residentsnow or at least this was
proposed, I don't know if itactually happened they're
proposing that only residentscould buy cannabis to reduce the
cannabis tourism.
They don't want that crowdcoming from all around America
and Europe to have that sort offun, and similarly with
prostitution.
Again, I don't know how youregulate this, but they've put a
(07:12):
couple of different ideas outthere to make the city more
livable for themselves.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
The third way here that we want to talk about
that's being deployed in Europeis just straight up aggression,
and I think this has gotten afair amount of coverage in the
US.
But Barcelona I think thecitizens of Barcelona have sort
of, I guess how would youdescribe it?
They've taken up arms, shall wesay.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Spring tourists with water guns when they dine in
cafes and lobbing paint-filledballoons.
I heard that one.
This is clearly not how youwant to welcome guests of your
city, which is honestly not thepoint.
They want to make them feelunwelcome and stop other people
from coming in.
It's not the right way to do it.
Not only is there an ethicalconcern that I don't think we
(07:59):
need to go down the path of youshould probably not be throwing
paint-filled balloons at anyonefor any reason but it's directly
not going to stop the foottraffic that gets off these
large cruises.
I think cruises are something weshould get into because it's a
different kind of tourism.
I think we'll talk about Juneau, maybe, where this is a town of
22,000 people in Alaska and onany given day the town's
(08:24):
population can double when fourbig boats arrive.
Right, that makes theinfrastructure absolutely
unlivable for those people, andso there's a couple different
approaches that are going onaround the world.
Juneau's is quite interesting.
I think they know that the $30million in passenger-affiliated
revenue that they need in Juneau, they can't just turn that off.
(08:44):
Their town goes bankruptwithout it.
Their lives change, theeducation system for their
children changes.
It lives on those tourismdollars, at the same time to
enjoy living there.
They've proposed what they callship-free Saturdays.
I think this is a really goodhybrid, right, you still expose
the beauty of your town topeople, you still gain the local
tax dollars that you want foryour people, but you give them
(09:08):
at least one day of break wherethey can actually enjoy living
there and diversion as solutionshere.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Earlier this year, miami Beach actually made
headlines for quote-unquotebreaking up with spring break.
They did this video where thecity officials urged the
longtime crowd of springbreakers, who descend upon Miami
Beach like vultures, to juststay away.
To enforce this message, miamiBeach implemented curfews.
(09:44):
They prohibited alcoholconsumption and loud music on
the beaches.
That's pretty radical if you'veever been to Miami Beach.
They reinforced its ban onshort-term rentals, imposed
strict traffic regulationsduring peak travel days in March
I was thinking a little bitabout this in the context of
demarketing, you know, and itdoesn't necessarily have to mean
(10:07):
negative marketing or notaccepting tourists.
It simply means directingtourism demand to alternative
destinations Around 80% ofFrance's 37 million annual
visitors, all those people thatcongregate in just 20% of the
country.
So France is trying to kind ofdivert people away from Paris
(10:28):
and spread the money around,which, frankly, is better for
the country's economy as a wholewhen you don't have a million
people each day trying to getinto the.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Louvre.
There's only so much regulationyou can do, though, right?
I mean to the Juneau example.
The day after the communityvoted to restrict the number of
ships or restrict the days ofweek to protect Saturdays for
locals, royal Caribbeanannounced that it would open a
new port on the other side ofthe island and shuttle people to
town.
Right, so there you go.
(10:58):
Juneau commerce figured it out,and it took all of ours.
Right they were ready for it.
I don't know if you, let's say,matt, in your example, the
demarketing, uh, if you can'tfly as often into skip hole in
Amsterdam, do people startflying more often to the Hague
and then just training up?
(11:18):
Right, I mean, where peoplewant to go, they will.
Where there's a dollar to bemade, people will.
Business people will figure itout.
When we get to the idea of whatto do about these things, in my
mind it starts with anunderstanding of what are you
trying to solve here.
Right Is the existence of aplace threatened.
(11:40):
Right and Machu Picchu, a placeI've been twice.
I would say no one should everbe allowed to go more than once.
Right, it's a very fragileplace.
It has too many footsteps andit's literally ruining what was
built.
You won't be at this pace.
Someday soon I don't know ifit's 20 years from now you will
not be able to see Machu Picchu.
It won't exist.
(12:00):
Not be able to see Machu Picchuit won't exist.
The Galapagos Islands belongs toEcuador.
The policy there is a very hardnumber of people who can visit
the islands At any given time.
There's a hard cap.
Being in the middle of thePacific, you can do that.
It's much easier to control,but to protect the fragile
ecosystem of the Galapagos.
(12:20):
That is an absolute must, it'snon-negotiable.
Right you start unleashingtourism on the Galapagos?
There will be no Galapagos, soyou must do it.
So I think number one is how doyou deal with preventing the
destruction of a place becausetoo many people are there?
The second thing, though, is ifyou're trying to impact the
(12:41):
reduction in quality of life forthe inhabitants, human or
animal, like in a place likeBarcelona, the city is not being
threatened Like the structureof the city, gaudi's wonderful
architecture, right.
It's not being threatened by somany people being there, but
the lives of locals is, and theinfrastructure of the city is
not meant for it.
So you have to deal with thatin a very different way, and I
(13:02):
think maybe the third section,or kind of category, is if it
hurts the product or theauthenticity of a place, how you
go about making sure that eachof those threats is addressed
appropriately.
The solution is probably verydifferent.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Tourism is a growth-driven industry, but
supporting that growth demandsinvestment.
It demands infrastructure,beyond just adding more hotel
rooms and pools.
It requires spending on watersystems and sewers and roads and
public transportation, lawenforcement, waste management,
the upkeep of public spaces.
These aspects of governmentaren't as glamorous and aren't
(13:43):
as easy as putting up a newhotel, frankly, and the tourism
industry often overlooks thosethings as priorities because
they're big and expensive and,on the best of days, incredibly
slow to get done.
Plus, you have to find time todo them.
Let's say you're going to builda new road, you got to find
time to build it and then notinterrupt the flow of tourists
(14:06):
that are keeping the moneycoming in.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
If you look at who would support a moratorium on
new hotels, you'd find anunusual advocate among existing
hotel owners.
We don't want more supply,right, right.
I think Key West is one, maybeone of the best examples of tiny
Island.
I don't know how many hotellicenses there are, but call it
maybe a dozen or two dozen right.
(14:30):
A dozen big ones, maybe acouple dozen real small boutique
B and Bs Right, but there areno more to be had.
And that's not just an overtourism, that's not a reaction
to recent over tourism passions.
It's been that way for a verylong time.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Okay, so.
So wait a minute, so I will.
Okay, I'm going to corner you alittle bit.
So, true or false hospitalitybrands ignore over tourism,
because over tourism is greatfor business.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Uh, false.
You asked the wrong question.
You said hospitality brands.
I said hospitality hotel owners.
Right?
The owner of a hotel.
If I'm one of 10 hotels in KeyWest, I don't want there to be
an 11th or a 12th.
I want that demand to beconstrained.
It helps me drive pricing right.
You start creating more supply.
Pricing power decreases.
(15:20):
You share the occupancy thatcomes in your occupancy the
whole thing's bad right.
You want a concentration.
Occupancy that comes in youroccupancy the whole thing's bad
right.
You want a concentration In NewYork City.
Let's go from maybe the tiniestexample like Key West to New
York City, maybe the largest,probably the largest hotel
market in the US.
In the last 15 years it wentthrough a 20% supply boom, right
(15:45):
, and it's because people, cityofficials and other business
people realized there was somuch money to be made by putting
more hotels in Manhattan.
But what it did initially wasnot great.
It was, in fact, terrible forthe existing hotel owners, right
.
Instead of being able to charge$700 a night for a shoebox room
in Times Square, now there arewell more hotels in Times Square
and I can only get 500 or 400for it right Now.
(16:07):
Airbnb and the sharing economyis the total opposite of this.
Right, I think there is a veryeasy way to enact some of the
over-tourism complaint or toaddress some of the complaints
of over-tourism by locals,because the sharing economy can
grow exponentially.
Right, it takes years to builda hotel.
Right, you'll be in planningstage and financing and
(16:29):
construction and like, from theminute somebody, a developer,
has an idea that I'm going tobuy that land to build a hotel,
from the minute they think thatto the minute the hotel doors
open it's going to be five years.
Right, especially in a placelike New York where you've got,
you know, a hundred differentlicenses you have to acquire.
Right, it takes a long, longtime.
It takes about 10 minutes toput your place up on Airbnb.
And so what you've seen in thesupply side and New York City is
(16:52):
again a great example of thisthis boom in non-hotel but
overnight stay supply hasexacerbated these problems.
One of the things that they aredoing, besides throwing
paint-filled balloons at peoplein Barcelona Barcelona is going
to cut back on and maybe even atotal, outright ban on
short-term rentals, becausetheir neighborhoods are feeling
(17:13):
degraded and you can't get intolocal coffee shops.
So I think there is probably alot more immediate.
I'm certain there's a moreimmediate solution in addressing
the short-term rental economies.
It's probably a betterlong-term solution also, and I'm
going to be accused of sayingthat as a hotel guy.
I understand the accusation,but hotels have to operate very
(17:33):
differently and I think morelikely we'll go along with a
long-term solution that balancesout valuable amounts of transit
in and out of a place, valuableamounts of transit in and out
of a place.
To the economics of who saysthere's a problem with over
tourism.
You do have very good examplesout there.
The greek prime ministerrecently said we do not have a
(17:57):
problem with over tourism.
That economy relies on it.
But what they're going to do isthey're going to try to spread
it out and, matt, you mentionedthis in different ways spreading
In your example you mentionedtrying to disperse the number of
places people go, where thesehundreds of millions of tourists
to France only concentrate inthe same places.
They want to spread them outacross France.
Right, I think Greece is doingsomething kind of like that,
(18:20):
only it's over the course of ayear.
Everyone wants to go to Mykonosand Santorini when they're in
Greece, but the way the primeminister presented this was it
isn't a problem with them takingtoo many places, people.
It's that they all come inMarch, april, may, and these are
wonderful destinations in sixof the other nine months of the
(18:40):
year too.
If you're taking the approachthat we're going to spread this
out over a greater period oftime, it's a much harder thing
to do than an outright ban or acap.
Listen, the libertarian in mehates the idea that I'm going to
make a parallel with carbonoffsets.
But what happens if you traveloff-season?
Well, is your footprint in thiscase, I mean it literally less
(19:03):
invasive?
How do we reward that in a waythat's not just cash?
If it's only a matter of cashand prices, then travel just
goes back to being a luxury forthe wealthy, and I don't think
we want that.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Let's go lightning round.
Where should people definitelynot go?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
This is a subject where I hold a few inconsistent
beliefs, but my answer here,very clearly a few inconsistent
beliefs, but my answer here veryclearly, unequivocally, is
Antarctica.
I think it should be strictly,totally banned from non-science
visitation.
The only reason humans even gothere is to join the Seven
Continents Club.
It's a box-checking exercise.
People want to come back andtell the stories and say they
(19:42):
did it.
I don't think that's a goodenough reason for people to
allow, you know, to allow peopleto spoil the last pristine
place on the planet.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
What's a touristy place you secretly like?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Guilty pleasure, fort Worth stockyards.
I mean, it's the Disneyficationof cowboy culture, but I love
it.
It's so much fun.
I go every chance I can.
I live in Dallas now and it'sonly an hour away.
I was there a week ago and thatwas not by choice, it was a
work event that brought me there.
(20:16):
But, man, I was happy to go.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Okay, so that's domestic, International.
What's a touristy internationalplace you like?
What's a touristy internationalplace you like?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
That I like Touristy.
You know I've said Amsterdam somany times today already.
I do love Amsterdam, bali.
I love Bali, but it's kind ofmanufactured and it's sadly so.
Right, it has a very authenticHindu culture in the middle of
(20:47):
the Pacific, but it has also,then you know, that culture has
been so exploited for tourists.
It's kind of like Hawaii inthat way, where you know, yes,
there is culture you can go back100 years, 200 years to find,
but it's been so Disney-fiedthat you kind of question what's
really real anyway?
What's?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
the most overrated tourist destination in the world
.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I try to talk everyone out of the Maldives
every chance I get.
There's no reason to go to theMaldives.
You're resort locked, literally.
You fly into Mali and fromthere anywhere from 45 minutes
to another two-hour flightbecause these islands are so
spread out and you fly a tinylittle atoll that is essentially
(21:33):
just a resort.
So it has amazing hotels, someof the most amazing resorts in
the world, but it is, if youcare about sustainability, awful
, and not just because, as aEuropeanan or an american,
you're flying 24 hours to getthere, but on your way there
from europe or america you haveprobably flown over a thousand
(21:55):
better places to be I have a hottake the caribbean.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
I think the caribbean is really overrated you know,
in relation to the maldives.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I'll go to the Caribbean a hundred times.
There are beautiful islands inthe Caribbean.
St Lucia is gorgeous right.
Jamaica is incredibly beautiful.
I love Puerto Rico.
It has rainforest and mountainright, so I don't think the two
really Maldives can't compare.
There's so much more in theCaribbean.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
The Caribbean is a hot exploitative mess.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
If I could, live there now I'd already be there.
I'd be recording this fromabout an hour outside of San
Juan.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Wow, over-tourism, jeff.
We solved it Once again.
Hi everybody.
It's no Show.
I'm Matt Brown, joined asalways by Jeff Borman.
We are talking today aboutovertourism.
It's a sprawling topic thateverybody in the travel business
has opinions on.
Tourism as an industry makes uparound 10% of global GDP.
In 2023, 27 million new jobswere in the travel and tourism
(00:28):
sector alone.
According to the World Traveland Tourism Council.
Much of overtourism you know,as we've been talking about this
leading up to this episode ismarketing.
Right, you know Venice, it'samazing, but it sort of got
enshrined as amazing Things thatyou think you have to do when
you visit a place.
I have to go to Times Square,and I always beg people when
(00:49):
they come to New York City donot go to Times Square.
Most New Yorkers universallyrecognize it as the least
attractive place to visit.
That doesn't stop a singleperson from wanting to go see
Times Square when they come here.
They have to go.
Jeff, what do you think aboutus?
What do you think aboutovertourism?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I think, first of all , the 27 million new jobs we
need to identify.
These are not just jobs.
These are very meaningful jobs.
Most Americans may not alwayssee it this way, but when a
hotel is built outside the US,these are jobs that directly
lift people from poverty.
They require no degree, noskill set beyond a great smile
(01:26):
or work ethic.
Opening a large hotel inBarranquilla, colombia, would
directly pull a thousand people,and indirectly many more, into
a better existence right, abetter life for those people.
As global brands reach thosedestinations, a culture of
racial and gender equality areoften introduced.
Health benefits and educationprograms and things we take for
(01:50):
granted in the West areintroduced.
So it's not just 27 millionjobs.
There are 27 very significantjobs for affecting lives.
I think that needs to be at thestart of the conversation over
tourism recognizing that themassive humanitarian benefits of
tourism are really what'sdriving what we're now calling a
problem.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Let's dig into some of the ways that regions and
cities and public-private groupsare trying to tackle over
tourism.
Let's just get some of these.
Let's do a little table settinghere before we dive in, and one
of those ways is tourism tax.
Now, I'm not opposed to atourism tax per se.
(02:30):
If you're going to visit Venice, you pay an extra $20 at the
city gates to come in and Ithink on paper that sounds like
an easy way to generate revenue,but it does squeeze budget
travelers even more and it makesexpensive places even more
expensive, and I feel like it'sa band-aid.
(02:51):
What do you think about tourismtax?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I think we kind of have to step up a level.
On the tourism tax.
I'm not against it.
Why are you doing it right?
What are you trying to affectby creating a tax In New York
City?
I was recently at the fabulousCWA Hotel and I got my bill.
It was a 20% tax when you addedup all the New York City taxes
(03:18):
and especially the Javits Centertax, I think, or something like
that that they're calling itright.
So directly pulling money fromnon-locals into the local
coffers?
It's a classic way to do it.
Listen, florida has no stateincome tax, mainly because they
have a sales tax and tourismtaxes.
Well, if you're a local inFlorida, a resident of Florida,
(03:39):
many people move there for thereason of not paying a state
income tax.
You can't have it both ways.
So I think you just got torecognize the two together,
right?
How are you going to fund allof this wonderful infrastructure
that people come to visit?
It's either out of the locals'pockets or out of the tourists'
pockets, and it's a lot easierto tax the person that doesn't
get to vote.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
There are three destinations that we've been
reading a lot about that arehandling over tourism in three
very different ways, Jeff.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthose.
First up is Venice.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Right, they recently introduced an entry fee for
those who want to visit just oneday and see its iconic canals,
and the overnight tax is also ineffect.
Supposedly it's been about ayear.
There's been zero impact to theamount of foot traffic, and
that's what concerns Venetianson a daily basis.
Right, they've raised money todeal with the infrastructure
toll that tourism takes on itsfragile little city, but it's
(04:34):
not reducing tourism, it's notreducing foot traffic and so
it's not improving theirlifestyle.
Other places are trying similarapproaches.
Right, they're setting limitsin Marseille, in France,
introducing a reservation system, to the number of people who
can visit national parks.
They're aiming to protect acove because it's sensitive and
vulnerable and degraded right.
(04:54):
But then in Europe you go theother direction.
You have what Amsterdam isdoing, where, instead of a tax,
they are simply reducing flightcapacity at Schiphol Airport.
Right, fewer people coming in.
That's how you do it.
They have put an outright banon new hotel construction.
Those things like Malaga.
Spain is doing somethingsimilar, only they're banning
(05:15):
short term rentals completely.
So those different measures aremore likely, I think, to give
the locals what they're lookingfor, whereas perhaps the tax
just raises the funds, but it'snot helping day-to-day Venetians
.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Right Like if you're traveling.
If you decided you want to goto Venice, an extra 20 bucks is
not going to stop you for the-.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
No.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Not a chance and in fact, most people don't realize
they're paying it because if youarrive by cruise, it's a part
of the cruise ticket, right,when you book the package that's
there.
If you arrive by plane intoSchiphol, if you're still lucky
enough to get on one of thereduced flights, you're going to
pay that, and in fact, weactually pay this everywhere.
I think we did an episode withMatt Cornelius years ago and I
(06:00):
think we talked on that episodeabout how all these fees and
airport fees they're in theprice of your airline ticket
anyway.
Right, it's already bundled up,so you don't have to pay an
airport tax on arrival, butyou're still paying one.
I like what Amsterdam is doing,but I think their measure
directly attacks what they'retrying to do.
Right, and one of the reasonsAmsterdam and locals are
(06:25):
frustrated with too much tourismis also the type of tourists
that they're getting.
It's not just the volume thevolume is a problem but it's the
type of tourists who are comingspecifically for the red light
district and they're looking topull back on that.
And so one of the thingsthey've done too even though
there's a little bit outside of,you know, over tourism is
(06:49):
they're only allowing residentsnow or at least this was
proposed, I don't know if itactually happened they're
proposing that only residentscould buy cannabis to reduce the
cannabis tourism.
They don't want that crowdcoming from all around America
and Europe to have that sort offun, and similarly with
prostitution.
Again, I don't know how youregulate this, but they've put a
(07:12):
couple of different ideas outthere to make the city more
livable for themselves.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
The third way here that we want to talk about
that's being deployed in Europeis just straight up aggression,
and I think this has gotten afair amount of coverage in the
US.
But Barcelona I think thecitizens of Barcelona have sort
of, I guess how would youdescribe it?
They've taken up arms, shall wesay.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Spring tourists with water guns when they dine in
cafes and lobbing paint-filledballoons.
I heard that one.
This is clearly not how youwant to welcome guests of your
city, which is honestly not thepoint.
They want to make them feelunwelcome and stop other people
from coming in.
It's not the right way to do it.
Not only is there an ethicalconcern that I don't think we
(07:59):
need to go down the path of youshould probably not be throwing
paint-filled balloons at anyonefor any reason but it's directly
not going to stop the foottraffic that gets off these
large cruises.
I think cruises are something weshould get into because it's a
different kind of tourism.
I think we'll talk about Juneau, maybe, where this is a town of
22,000 people in Alaska and onany given day the town's
(08:24):
population can double when fourbig boats arrive.
Right, that makes theinfrastructure absolutely
unlivable for those people, andso there's a couple different
approaches that are going onaround the world.
Juneau's is quite interesting.
I think they know that the $30million in passenger-affiliated
revenue that they need in Juneau, they can't just turn that off.
(08:44):
Their town goes bankruptwithout it.
Their lives change, theeducation system for their
children changes.
It lives on those tourismdollars, at the same time to
enjoy living there.
They've proposed what they callship-free Saturdays.
I think this is a really goodhybrid, right, you still expose
the beauty of your town topeople, you still gain the local
tax dollars that you want foryour people, but you give them
(09:08):
at least one day of break wherethey can actually enjoy living
there and diversion as solutionshere.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Earlier this year, miami Beach actually made
headlines for quote-unquotebreaking up with spring break.
They did this video where thecity officials urged the
longtime crowd of springbreakers, who descend upon Miami
Beach like vultures, to juststay away.
To enforce this message, miamiBeach implemented curfews.
(09:44):
They prohibited alcoholconsumption and loud music on
the beaches.
That's pretty radical if you'veever been to Miami Beach.
They reinforced its ban onshort-term rentals, imposed
strict traffic regulationsduring peak travel days in March
I was thinking a little bitabout this in the context of
demarketing, you know, and itdoesn't necessarily have to mean
(10:07):
negative marketing or notaccepting tourists.
It simply means directingtourism demand to alternative
destinations Around 80% ofFrance's 37 million annual
visitors, all those people thatcongregate in just 20% of the
country.
So France is trying to kind ofdivert people away from Paris
(10:28):
and spread the money around,which, frankly, is better for
the country's economy as a wholewhen you don't have a million
people each day trying to getinto the.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Louvre.
There's only so much regulationyou can do, though, right?
I mean to the Juneau example.
The day after the communityvoted to restrict the number of
ships or restrict the days ofweek to protect Saturdays for
locals, royal Caribbeanannounced that it would open a
new port on the other side ofthe island and shuttle people to
town.
Right, so there you go.
(10:58):
Juneau commerce figured it out,and it took all of ours.
Right they were ready for it.
I don't know if you, let's say,matt, in your example, the
demarketing, uh, if you can'tfly as often into skip hole in
Amsterdam, do people startflying more often to the Hague
and then just training up?
(11:18):
Right, I mean, where peoplewant to go, they will.
Where there's a dollar to bemade, people will.
Business people will figure itout.
When we get to the idea of whatto do about these things, in my
mind it starts with anunderstanding of what are you
trying to solve here.
Right Is the existence of aplace threatened.
(11:40):
Right and Machu Picchu, a placeI've been twice.
I would say no one should everbe allowed to go more than once.
Right, it's a very fragileplace.
It has too many footsteps andit's literally ruining what was
built.
You won't be at this pace.
Someday soon I don't know ifit's 20 years from now you will
not be able to see Machu Picchu.
It won't exist.
(12:00):
Not be able to see Machu Picchuit won't exist.
The Galapagos Islands belongs toEcuador.
The policy there is a very hardnumber of people who can visit
the islands At any given time.
There's a hard cap.
Being in the middle of thePacific, you can do that.
It's much easier to control,but to protect the fragile
ecosystem of the Galapagos.
(12:20):
That is an absolute must, it'snon-negotiable.
Right you start unleashingtourism on the Galapagos?
There will be no Galapagos, soyou must do it.
So I think number one is how doyou deal with preventing the
destruction of a place becausetoo many people are there?
The second thing, though, is ifyou're trying to impact the
(12:41):
reduction in quality of life forthe inhabitants, human or
animal, like in a place likeBarcelona, the city is not being
threatened Like the structureof the city, gaudi's wonderful
architecture, right.
It's not being threatened by somany people being there, but
the lives of locals is, and theinfrastructure of the city is
not meant for it.
So you have to deal with thatin a very different way, and I
(13:02):
think maybe the third section,or kind of category, is if it
hurts the product or theauthenticity of a place, how you
go about making sure that eachof those threats is addressed
appropriately.
The solution is probably verydifferent.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Tourism is a growth-driven industry, but
supporting that growth demandsinvestment.
It demands infrastructure,beyond just adding more hotel
rooms and pools.
It requires spending on watersystems and sewers and roads and
public transportation, lawenforcement, waste management,
the upkeep of public spaces.
These aspects of governmentaren't as glamorous and aren't
(13:43):
as easy as putting up a newhotel, frankly, and the tourism
industry often overlooks thosethings as priorities because
they're big and expensive and,on the best of days, incredibly
slow to get done.
Plus, you have to find time todo them.
Let's say you're going to builda new road, you got to find
time to build it and then notinterrupt the flow of tourists
(14:06):
that are keeping the moneycoming in.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
If you look at who would support a moratorium on
new hotels, you'd find anunusual advocate among existing
hotel owners.
We don't want more supply,right, right.
I think Key West is one, maybeone of the best examples of tiny
Island.
I don't know how many hotellicenses there are, but call it
maybe a dozen or two dozen right.
(14:30):
A dozen big ones, maybe acouple dozen real small boutique
B and Bs Right, but there areno more to be had.
And that's not just an overtourism, that's not a reaction
to recent over tourism passions.
It's been that way for a verylong time.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Okay, so.
So wait a minute, so I will.
Okay, I'm going to corner you alittle bit.
So, true or false hospitalitybrands ignore over tourism,
because over tourism is greatfor business.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Uh, false.
You asked the wrong question.
You said hospitality brands.
I said hospitality hotel owners.
Right?
The owner of a hotel.
If I'm one of 10 hotels in KeyWest, I don't want there to be
an 11th or a 12th.
I want that demand to beconstrained.
It helps me drive pricing right.
You start creating more supply.
Pricing power decreases.
(15:20):
You share the occupancy thatcomes in your occupancy the
whole thing's bad right.
You want a concentration.
Occupancy that comes in youroccupancy the whole thing's bad
right.
You want a concentration In NewYork City.
Let's go from maybe the tiniestexample like Key West to New
York City, maybe the largest,probably the largest hotel
market in the US.
In the last 15 years it wentthrough a 20% supply boom, right
(15:45):
, and it's because people, cityofficials and other business
people realized there was somuch money to be made by putting
more hotels in Manhattan.
But what it did initially wasnot great.
It was, in fact, terrible forthe existing hotel owners, right
.
Instead of being able to charge$700 a night for a shoebox room
in Times Square, now there arewell more hotels in Times Square
and I can only get 500 or 400for it right Now.
(16:07):
Airbnb and the sharing economyis the total opposite of this.
Right, I think there is a veryeasy way to enact some of the
over-tourism complaint or toaddress some of the complaints
of over-tourism by locals,because the sharing economy can
grow exponentially.
Right, it takes years to builda hotel.
Right, you'll be in planningstage and financing and
(16:29):
construction and like, from theminute somebody, a developer,
has an idea that I'm going tobuy that land to build a hotel,
from the minute they think thatto the minute the hotel doors
open it's going to be five years.
Right, especially in a placelike New York where you've got,
you know, a hundred differentlicenses you have to acquire.
Right, it takes a long, longtime.
It takes about 10 minutes toput your place up on Airbnb.
And so what you've seen in thesupply side and New York City is
(16:52):
again a great example of thisthis boom in non-hotel but
overnight stay supply hasexacerbated these problems.
One of the things that they aredoing, besides throwing
paint-filled balloons at peoplein Barcelona Barcelona is going
to cut back on and maybe even atotal, outright ban on
short-term rentals, becausetheir neighborhoods are feeling
(17:13):
degraded and you can't get intolocal coffee shops.
So I think there is probably alot more immediate.
I'm certain there's a moreimmediate solution in addressing
the short-term rental economies.
It's probably a betterlong-term solution also, and I'm
going to be accused of sayingthat as a hotel guy.
I understand the accusation,but hotels have to operate very
(17:33):
differently and I think morelikely we'll go along with a
long-term solution that balancesout valuable amounts of transit
in and out of a place, valuableamounts of transit in and out
of a place.
To the economics of who saysthere's a problem with over
tourism.
You do have very good examplesout there.
The greek prime ministerrecently said we do not have a
(17:57):
problem with over tourism.
That economy relies on it.
But what they're going to do isthey're going to try to spread
it out and, matt, you mentionedthis in different ways spreading
In your example you mentionedtrying to disperse the number of
places people go, where thesehundreds of millions of tourists
to France only concentrate inthe same places.
They want to spread them outacross France.
Right, I think Greece is doingsomething kind of like that,
(18:20):
only it's over the course of ayear.
Everyone wants to go to Mykonosand Santorini when they're in
Greece, but the way the primeminister presented this was it
isn't a problem with them takingtoo many places, people.
It's that they all come inMarch, april, may, and these are
wonderful destinations in sixof the other nine months of the
(18:40):
year too.
If you're taking the approachthat we're going to spread this
out over a greater period oftime, it's a much harder thing
to do than an outright ban or acap.
Listen, the libertarian in mehates the idea that I'm going to
make a parallel with carbonoffsets.
But what happens if you traveloff-season?
Well, is your footprint in thiscase, I mean it literally less
(19:03):
invasive?
How do we reward that in a waythat's not just cash?
If it's only a matter of cashand prices, then travel just
goes back to being a luxury forthe wealthy, and I don't think
we want that.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Let's go lightning round.
Where should people definitelynot go?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
This is a subject where I hold a few inconsistent
beliefs, but my answer here,very clearly a few inconsistent
beliefs, but my answer here veryclearly, unequivocally, is
Antarctica.
I think it should be strictly,totally banned from non-science
visitation.
The only reason humans even gothere is to join the Seven
Continents Club.
It's a box-checking exercise.
People want to come back andtell the stories and say they
(19:42):
did it.
I don't think that's a goodenough reason for people to
allow, you know, to allow peopleto spoil the last pristine
place on the planet.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
What's a touristy place you secretly like?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Guilty pleasure, fort Worth stockyards.
I mean, it's the Disneyficationof cowboy culture, but I love
it.
It's so much fun.
I go every chance I can.
I live in Dallas now and it'sonly an hour away.
I was there a week ago and thatwas not by choice, it was a
work event that brought me there.
(20:16):
But, man, I was happy to go.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Okay, so that's domestic, International.
What's a touristy internationalplace you like?
What's a touristy internationalplace you like?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
That I like Touristy.
You know I've said Amsterdam somany times today already.
I do love Amsterdam, bali.
I love Bali, but it's kind ofmanufactured and it's sadly so.
Right, it has a very authenticHindu culture in the middle of
(20:47):
the Pacific, but it has also,then you know, that culture has
been so exploited for tourists.
It's kind of like Hawaii inthat way, where you know, yes,
there is culture you can go back100 years, 200 years to find,
but it's been so Disney-fiedthat you kind of question what's
really real anyway?
What's?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
the most overrated tourist destination in the world
.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I try to talk everyone out of the Maldives
every chance I get.
There's no reason to go to theMaldives.
You're resort locked, literally.
You fly into Mali and fromthere anywhere from 45 minutes
to another two-hour flightbecause these islands are so
spread out and you fly a tinylittle atoll that is essentially
(21:33):
just a resort.
So it has amazing hotels, someof the most amazing resorts in
the world, but it is, if youcare about sustainability, awful
, and not just because, as aEuropeanan or an american,
you're flying 24 hours to getthere, but on your way there
from europe or america you haveprobably flown over a thousand
(21:55):
better places to be I have a hottake the caribbean.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
I think the caribbean is really overrated you know,
in relation to the maldives.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I'll go to the Caribbean a hundred times.
There are beautiful islands inthe Caribbean.
St Lucia is gorgeous right.
Jamaica is incredibly beautiful.
I love Puerto Rico.
It has rainforest and mountainright, so I don't think the two
really Maldives can't compare.
There's so much more in theCaribbean.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
The Caribbean is a hot exploitative mess.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
If I could, live there now I'd already be there.
I'd be recording this fromabout an hour outside of San
Juan.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Wow, over-tourism, jeff.
We solved it Once again.
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