December 23, 2024 • 25 mins
Rejoice America, Jeff and Matt answer critical questions from fake listeners. If we could change one thing about the travel industry, what would it be? What are some of the best travel and travel business articles we've read this year? What's the next hot destination? What's the biggest trend coming for the industry in 2025? Whatever happened to Yakov Smirnoff?
Articles we mention:
The Branson Pilgrim
Airbnb's idea to hold gladiator battles in Rome's Colosseum isn't going down well with some local lawmakers
CBRE analysis of loyalty programs
Colorado’s I-70 Has America’s Most Notorious Ski Traffic. Is There a Solution?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
oh man, it's the most wonderful time of year, isn't
it?
And we are here.
And one of my favorite sectionswe don't we, I think?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I don't think we did this last year, but I love it,
it's uh what I, what I loveabout this is that, uh, in one,
the only other time we've donethis, we had no listeners, no,
and so fake listener mailbag wasreal, truly fake.
Not one ounce of feedback hadcome our way.
You know as we, frankly, we'rewhat finalized season three?
(00:41):
Here we still have no mailbag.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
No, no, there's no mail.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
It is still fake.
It's as fake as it was from thebeginning.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I enjoy embracing the old traditions and I think the
nice thing about creating fakemailbag is that it gets to the
genesis of this podcast, whichwas us whenever I'd see you when
we lived in DC at the same timeand then when we didn't live in
the same city.
Whenever we'd get together,we'd have long some say too long
(01:11):
conversations about the hotelindustry, and you, as a veteran,
were able to illuminate thingsin such a way as to make me feel
like I knew what was actuallygoing on for once.
And we've decided to carrythrough that tradition with fake
listener mailbag.
We're the listeners.
Some of these actually areinspired by friends and family
who have tuned in over the lastyear, but a lot of them are
(01:35):
things that we actually reallywant to ask each other.
All right, jeff, first fakequestion what are some of the
best travel and travel businessarticles you've read this year?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
You know I have almost every single quarter.
I make some comment that Lark'squarterly webinar remains the
best 50 minutes on the industryand I stand by that.
I have for years.
I don't know if that's reallyan article because it's kind of
a Zoom webinar type deal, butthere's a deck that goes with it
and the material it's not to bemissed.
(02:08):
It's must read as much as anymaterial I see on where the
business is going.
More fun than that I think we'veseen some fun things this year,
like you know.
A lot of focus on experiencesdriving leisure travel things
this year.
A lot of focus on experiencesdriving leisure travel.
What makes people get out thedoor is what marketers are being
(02:30):
increasingly encouraged to gofocus on in their effort.
Why leave the house and withthat, airbnb is hosting a
gladiator fight in the Coliseumin Rome.
How does that not make the list?
Cbre did a great analysis andwrote an article on loyalty
programs and I thought that wasone of the better studies of the
(02:52):
year.
Dry for sure, right?
I mean, this is about theeconomics of the business.
It's a cure for insomnia forsome.
I found it fascinating.
Is there anything that stoodout to you?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yes, I had one that was a little bit more of a
travelogue and I know we don'tdo a ton of those here, but
there was an article in Harper'sMagazine called the Branson
Pilgrim.
The author's name let me lookthis up Raphael Kroll Zadie, I
think, is his name, and it's apersonal history and then an
actual history of Branson,missouri, and it's an attraction
(03:31):
that he's been going to foryears.
You know, when you and I weregrowing up, branson really had
kind of a cultural moment.
I think in the 80s and 90sBranson was like a legit
destination and in fact thearticle kind of goes into you
know the acts that sort offlirted with Duny Res residency
there, including Guns N' Rosesat the height of their power,
(03:51):
was actually thinking aboutdoing like a I don't know like a
three-month stint Branson,because it was sort of this you
know Gatlinburg, pigeon Forge,sort of.
You know Wisconsin Dells, ozarkkind of thing, and while those
places definitely haveconnotations with them, branson
(04:11):
was riding high and now that'ssort of crested and you know,
for all of its ridiculousness,there's kind of a raw humanity
to what this place was and whatthis place is the tackiness, the
crowded nature of it, but howand why people congregated there
.
And this guy really gets intoit.
(04:33):
The thing's probably like a10,000 word article.
The centerpiece of it is hisinterview with Yakov Smirnoff,
famed 80s comic.
He's actually a pretty eruditeguy.
He got his doctorate fromPepperdine later in his career
and sits down for a couple ofinterviews with him that are
pretty lucid and informative.
So yes, the Branson Pilgrim inHarper's for anybody who wants a
(04:59):
journey into the heart ofAmerica.
We don't get enough of thosethese days.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
I'd say it was one I want to read and have yet to be
satisfied with the death of thecookie and its resurrection by
Google.
There has been no shortage ofarticles on the subject, but I
have yet to find one that reallyaddresses the what to do.
It has been years in the making.
Everybody prepared, supposedlyI'm not sure what they did and
(05:27):
then all of a sudden, google'slike yeah, we're going to keep
it, it's helpful for us.
What do we actually do aboutthat?
This is the most core,fundamental thing in digital
marketing, and it totally went180 degrees twice.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Do you ever read the accept all or reject all
language for cookies on websitesOf?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
course not Right the fine print no.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
No, it's become the modern day version of the old
cell phone contracts, which noone ever reads.
I also want to recommend andagain these are a little more
travel versus travel business,but they do intersect Outside
Magazine, which always doesexcellent travel reporting, has
a writer named Gloria Liu whodid a great piece on I-70,
(06:12):
colorado's notoriouslygridlocked ski highway.
Anytime that she has reportagein Outside it's worth checking
out.
Also, the Washington Post has areally robust travel section
which I had not really keyedinto until this year.
They do a lot of articles thatare a little more consumer
friendly.
They're not coming at itstraight from the business side,
(06:34):
but they do mix and match thepersonal experience of travel
with the business side of it andI recommend that for anybody
who can kind of hustle their wayinto a post subscription.
Okay, here's what we'll do nexthere.
All right, jeff, here's one foryou.
Inspired by my father.
(06:54):
He sent me an article on La Pazin Mexico and how it's going to
be a hot destination.
Already is a hot destination,getting hotter by the by the
month.
What is the next hotdestination in the world for
people to go to that maybe hasnot been hot before?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Well, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is pouring cash
into their budding tourismindustry.
They'll host the first eSportsOlympics this year, 2025.
So that'll probably beliterally the hottest event in
2025.
The Year of the Snake in Chinaprobably will not be great for
travel to China, at least notfrom the Western Hemisphere yet,
(07:38):
but they'll be opening theworld's largest indoor ski
facility in Shenzhen.
You know, I think Europe isprobably the answer here, matt,
and it will stay hot.
The dollar is so strong.
Going abroad is going to remain, I think the MO for the
American traveler Dollar goes along way.
Internationals are stillprobably staying away from the
(07:59):
US.
Right, the inbound to the US.
We're still just on the valueof an elevated currency, 25 to
35% more expensive than we usedto be, and that'll have a
negative impact.
So, america not hot, europequite hot Within Europe, I think
.
The UK in particular.
The inaugural South bySouthwest London will take place
(08:21):
this June and, of course, youand I will be attending the
Great British Beer Festival inAugust, one of the world's great
beer festivals.
All this no-show cash, I mean.
I can't figure, any better wayfor us to go blow all this
sponsorship money we've beenraking in?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Let's go back for a second.
There's going to be a South bySouthwest in London.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
There is, yeah, the inaugural South by Southwest
London.
It shows you the power of thebrand South by Southwest.
It literally has to be in aplace that is south or southwest
of something.
That's true.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, it's tough to do it in Iceland, though I
wouldn't put it past them.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
The North by Northeast yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I had kind of thought South by was running out of
steam, but maybe I need to plugback into that.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Maybe that's why the move right.
They need a new audience.
Yeah, yeah, I also thinkthere's some, and this is just
me hypothesizing.
I think there's a Brexit factorwhere the UK is looking for
different ways to endear itselfto inbound markets now that it's
no longer free flow of trafficfrom the EU.
(09:28):
I suspect that, paradoxicallythough, the UK next month or in
the coming quarter willintroduce an arrival processing
that is elevated and a fee to goalong with it.
So come visit the UK.
We can't wait to see you.
By the way, here's morepaperwork than ever and a fine
for arriving.
But I do think Europe will stayhot.
(09:49):
Italy, heather and I will begoing there this coming summer.
Unfortunately, that overlapswith Jubilee, which is an event
that takes place every 25 years.
Catholics come around the worldto gather in Rome for some
spiritual.
We will not be joining thosefestivities, but I think Italy
itself will stay quite hot Nothot.
We mentioned US, but I think 26is going to be a great year.
(10:11):
So we're probably another yearaway from great inbound travel.
We host FIFA's World Cup.
Philadelphia has thesemi-quincentennial.
Say that a couple times forwhat we've been at the 250th
anniversary of the signing ofthe Declaration of Independence.
So there'll be all kinds offanfare and there'll be All-Star
in Philadelphia, right.
When Philly does well, americadoes well.
(10:33):
Right, it's not the mostvisited place and so it's kind
of a nice barometer for inboundUS travel.
If Philly is elevated in travelnumbers from outside the
country, the rest of the USshould do quite well.
But we're probably a year away.
All right, you ready for one?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Give it to me straight.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
You often ask our guests, Matt, if you could
change one thing about thetravel industry, what would it
be?
It's your turn on the hot seat.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
This sounds like abject fantasy.
Here it is.
Here's what I'd do if I couldsnap my fingers.
I would change everything aboutAmerica's attitude to
high-speed rail.
People say, well, that's nevergoing to happen.
We will never embracehigh-speed rail the way that
China or Europe has embraced itToday.
(11:17):
In China you can go thedistance of Chicago to New York
in four and a half hours.
It's 700 miles between Chicagoand New York.
There's no reason why those twocities in particular couldn't
link up with the East Coast in ahigh-speed train.
You could be there in six orseven hours.
And the argument is never thatwe're going to give up our cars
(11:40):
to take the train.
America will never give up itscars.
I get it.
The train is an alternative toairplanes.
Everybody complains about airtravel.
The romance of it is deadunless you're in business or
first class.
It's a hassle, it's expensiveand it's getting more expensive
by the day.
I think a train as a pitchargument of like would you
(12:04):
rather spend six hours on atrain or four hours on a flight?
I think people would choose thetrain because the experience
would be more scenic.
It might be more beneficial tothe environment.
But there's kind of studies outthere that trump up the
congestion part of it.
I think we have to kind of seewhat the effects of it were once
(12:27):
we implemented it.
I just wish the country wouldrethink it.
Southern California, they'rereally getting serious about
this about a high-speed train assoon as 2026 for a two-hour
ride between LA and Vegas.
I think that makes perfect senseand I just think there's so
many routes in the country wherewe could do it and we could do
(12:47):
it effectively.
Part of the problem now withrethinking it is that Amtrak
essentially shares a lot of itsline with freight companies.
So when you start talking abouthigh speed and when you start
talking about dedicated routes,you got a lot of other players
involved in making those kindsof decisions and doing extra
tracks and maintenance and it'sjust a shame that we kind of had
(13:12):
to sell out a little bit inorder to get some of these
tracks laid down, because itkind of impeded our future
thinking about what the waysthat these tracks could work my
formative years in travel werespent with a year rail pass in
pocket and several differentoccasions in my life I saw the
(13:33):
you know, nearly the entirety ofthe continent.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
because I could, because I had this pass and I
could go anywhere anytime.
I could reach every destinationin Europe by train, every
single one, and just being ableto do that, the only limitation
then was your desire to do it.
I think, as you and I talkoften about the value of travel
(14:00):
to humanity, right, the way yousee the world and the way you
change when you do, thattraining enables those benefits.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Next in the mailbag, Jeffrey.
What's the biggest trend comingfor the industry in 2025?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, I think guest expectations will soar and this
isn't necessarily new, but Ithink it's going to reach a real
pivotal moment in travel.
People are so tired ofinflation and shrinkflation.
The expectations have elevatedalong with prices, but the
(14:37):
prices stayed.
The guest experience, whetheryou're talking hotel or air, has
not, frankly, right.
Price went up, but the servicedelivery has really stayed.
I don't think there's muchtolerance for that anymore and I
think you're actually going tosee, in some of the same ways
that we've seen, real outlashfor over tourism Right, the
experience is bad, and I thinkover tourism, it's more like the
(15:00):
experience is bad for the local.
Right, the experience is bad,and I think over tourism, it's
more like the experience is badfor the local.
I think, in this case, theexperience, if it's not
excellent at today's elevatedprices, customers are going to
start pushing back in a verymeaningful and aggressive way,
and they can do that.
We can vote with their walletsand just not do it.
It can get surly with be it thedesk agents or hotel operator,
(15:23):
with air carriers and theirrepresentatives.
I expect customers to reallyuse their voices in a more
powerful and potentially evenkind of angry way.
It's not new here.
Right, this has been coming,but I think you're going to see
a real crunch time where productand service delivery better
improve.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Adjacently, you deal with hotel revenue every day and
I'll ask you one of my galacticquestions that I usually ask
our revenue guests what'ssomething about revenue that
hotels need to realize headinginto the new year?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Year over year is a silly measurement and I think
every year presents a unique setof problems, opportunities, you
name it, but no year is thesame as the year prior, no month
is the same as the month.
So I think our metrics arereally messy, right.
I think they mislead thebusiness leaders because we're
so drawn habitually to compareeverything we do to year over
(16:23):
year performance.
And, matt, this year we willnot have a February 29.
I mean now, practically, doesthat matter at all?
It does not, but in reportingit will, and the way people are
measured and bonused and thethings they try to do, the
tactical actions that they willgo put in play, simply because
(16:46):
one day of a calendar is missing.
And so it changes thecomplexion of that month Easter,
moving from March to fully inthe back of April.
It'll be on 420 this year.
Is it any different?
We had Easter every year forwell, let's just call it 2000
years all round.
(17:07):
Right, it doesn't changeanything about the business, but
we continue to get distractedby the silliness of the measure.
I mean, I think maybe the betteror the easier example to
illustrate that is in thefestive season of Christmas, new
Year's, jewish holidays, duringthat period we see.
(17:31):
A few weeks from now, christmaswill fall on a Wednesday.
New Year's Eve will follow onthe following Wednesday.
Two years ago they were on aMonday, and so the travel
patterns were wildly different,as people took a whole week off
when it was a Monday Monday,right, there was one really good
week of travel in there.
But everybody is kind ofexpected to come back to work on
(17:53):
January 2, which was aWednesday, and finish that up
for a half week, whereas thisyear, with two Wednesday
holidays and back-to-back weeks,it really messes up from a work
pattern.
If maybe it's a good thing or abad thing, take your pick right
, but there are two weeks thatare essentially not going to be
working.
That kind of thing changes thetravel demand pattern
(18:16):
significantly all right.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Do regular people care about hotel brands?
Speaker 2 (18:24):
If you look at it from a loyalty perspective, I
think loyalty is mistaken.
Right, if you translate your dothey care?
Into our people loyal, I thinkthey are transactionally
conditioned to return to thesame brand umbrellas.
But no, I really there aren't.
No, I don't think so.
(18:47):
If I blindfolded you and walkedyou through the Hilton Garden
Inn and a courtyard, could youtell I mean, the blindfold's
probably not the right analogy,but if I stripped all the color
and the branding off of thosebuildings and walked you through
the lobby up to your room, allthe color and the branding off
of those buildings, and walkedyou through the lobby up to your
room, could you tell thedifference?
I?
I like to look at merch in thisway, right, uh, at the very
(19:08):
high-end luxury places, peoplelove to go into the gift shop
and buy the merch it says.
I was there, I was at theritz-carlton, whatever, the four
seasons something, the aman,whatever, uh, people like to to
wear it around.
I don't know that's loyalty,though.
Right, I think that's just atrophy.
I want to announce to the worldthat we just got back from a
(19:30):
ski vacation at this phenomenalresort.
Like, I want to say that, andso I wear it, but I don't really
see that, as do they care aboutthe brand, probably not only
for the way it makes them lookRight.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
You don't.
It makes them look right, right.
You don't see a ton of people.
You don't see a ton of peoplejust walking around with like
hilton sweatshirts right.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
If they do, they work for hilton right, right, of
course, but you're not.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
You're not cruising down the street like I'll go
down to the, I'll go down andget lunch somewhere.
Let me just throw on my this uh60 hoodie with Marriott on the
on the front of it.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
I don't see that too often.
Look at what they sell, do yousee?
You know a courtyard sellingmerch out of its gift shop?
Speaker 1 (20:13):
No, no, no, and I mean the Vegas hotels.
But that's to your point,that's the.
That's like a ski resort.
To your point, that's like aski resort.
It's a destination versus likea property, and I think you can
definitely have people who areloyal to certain locations for
business reasons.
I think you're right about thetransactional part of it.
I do this because I get a lotof points.
(20:35):
I travel all the time for workand it just makes sense because
the places I travel have prettygood Marriotts, so I'm just
going to stay there or I have togo to these three cities a
pretty decent amount for work,and the hotels are essentially
across the street from theoffices that I need to visit
there.
Once you take away thefunctionality of the places,
(21:03):
there are very few propertiesthat I think people are like oh
yeah, I'm oiled at that place,Just love it, I got to get back
there.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I have come to appreciate Hyatt in this way
where I think because it hasstayed relatively small, which
is a weird thing to say it's thefifth largest hotel company, or
something like that in numberof hotels.
But the composition of theHyatt portfolio is mostly
full-service, luxury,wellness-focused, these really
exceptional properties.
(21:28):
And so when you think of thebig hotel companies and of
course there's Marriott andHilton Hyatt rolls right off the
tongue.
Ihg and Choice are in there too, but of those major major
players, I think Hyatt probablyhas true loyal guests and it's
because they aren't doing.
(21:48):
200 million members, that'stransactional.
I need my points, I'm going totravel all the time.
Just give me my points.
I want free wifi.
Sign me up, sure.
Whatever the product portfolioand the relatively small size of
its loyalty program, I thinkyou probably do find people who
are genuinely saying I onlytravel to Hyatt because I want
(22:11):
that, not because the rewardsare so appealing, right.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
All right, we have time for one more here.
What do you want to do?
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Well, Matt, ultimately, you know, as the
year draws to a close, all of usin HR, especially here at no
Show, where we have a veryaggressive human resources
department- I just want to knowin my review what can I do
better on this podcast?
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Matt, give me my annual review please, so you
want you want me to tell youwhat you can do better on no
show.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yes, please.
It's.
It's time for my annual review.
What do I need to do better?
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Well, your your audio quality has improved over the
year, so kudos on that.
Your preparation for the showis tremendous and I rely on it.
The whole team here relies onit.
It's hard for me to think of anarea of improvement.
I think the one thing I wasthinking just in general is I've
(23:11):
always wanted to kind ofcapture the colloquial kind of
back and forth we have about thetravel business Because, as I
mentioned at the top of the show, we're able to talk about it in
a way that can be deep and canget into some of the numbers,
but not be so far in the weedsthat you're just at a five-day
(23:36):
finance meeting, and I thinkthat's something that we've
improved upon.
But I think that's somethingthat we improved upon.
But I think it's something thatI think both of us can probably
think about first and foremostwhen we talk about these topics
and when we we engage guests,because the guests that we talk
(23:56):
to often are, you talk about, inthe weeds.
These are people we've we'vebeen very fortunate to talk to,
people who are are the expertsin their field and they will
just go a mile a minute and it'simpressive to kind of hear
their command of the industryand command of numbers around
the industry, and I think wealways have to kind of remember
that um and I need to do this insome of the editing too it's
(24:20):
it's like go back and definestatistics and define acronyms,
because even people in thetravel business might not know
everything that you're talkingabout.
So I think, just stay curious,jeff, stay curious.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Prepare less.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
No, definitely don't prepare less.
I need it.
I need that preparation, don'tprepare less.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
I need it.
I need that preparation,Thinking through more
proactively the balance that wehave of a really meaty business
subject.
You know, let's pull this backand understand it.
I love that part of what we doand I truly think it's unlike
what anybody does.
Nobody does this when we pullit back and say how does this
part of the business work?
Speaker 1 (25:03):
We're unique in that.
So, in conclusion, we're doinggreat and I just want to thank
all the fake listeners out there, because your support means a
lot to us.
There we go.
It's no show.
Oh, I didn't even do the intro.
Hey, everybody, it's no show.
Sorry, jeff and Matt, whatwould you like to say at the end
?
What would you like to say atthe end?
Anything in particular, that'sokay.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
if you don't, no, we're good.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Happy holidays everyone, and we will see you
soon.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
They don't call him the best color man in the
business for nothing, folks.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
See you later.
oh man, it's the most wonderful time of year, isn't
it?
And we are here.
And one of my favorite sectionswe don't we, I think?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I don't think we did this last year, but I love it,
it's uh what I, what I loveabout this is that, uh, in one,
the only other time we've donethis, we had no listeners, no,
and so fake listener mailbag wasreal, truly fake.
Not one ounce of feedback hadcome our way.
You know as we, frankly, we'rewhat finalized season three?
(00:41):
Here we still have no mailbag.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
No, no, there's no mail.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
It is still fake.
It's as fake as it was from thebeginning.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I enjoy embracing the old traditions and I think the
nice thing about creating fakemailbag is that it gets to the
genesis of this podcast, whichwas us whenever I'd see you when
we lived in DC at the same timeand then when we didn't live in
the same city.
Whenever we'd get together,we'd have long some say too long
(01:11):
conversations about the hotelindustry, and you, as a veteran,
were able to illuminate thingsin such a way as to make me feel
like I knew what was actuallygoing on for once.
And we've decided to carrythrough that tradition with fake
listener mailbag.
We're the listeners.
Some of these actually areinspired by friends and family
who have tuned in over the lastyear, but a lot of them are
(01:35):
things that we actually reallywant to ask each other.
All right, jeff, first fakequestion what are some of the
best travel and travel businessarticles you've read this year?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
You know I have almost every single quarter.
I make some comment that Lark'squarterly webinar remains the
best 50 minutes on the industryand I stand by that.
I have for years.
I don't know if that's reallyan article because it's kind of
a Zoom webinar type deal, butthere's a deck that goes with it
and the material it's not to bemissed.
(02:08):
It's must read as much as anymaterial I see on where the
business is going.
More fun than that I think we'veseen some fun things this year,
like you know.
A lot of focus on experiencesdriving leisure travel things
this year.
A lot of focus on experiencesdriving leisure travel.
What makes people get out thedoor is what marketers are being
(02:30):
increasingly encouraged to gofocus on in their effort.
Why leave the house and withthat, airbnb is hosting a
gladiator fight in the Coliseumin Rome.
How does that not make the list?
Cbre did a great analysis andwrote an article on loyalty
programs and I thought that wasone of the better studies of the
(02:52):
year.
Dry for sure, right?
I mean, this is about theeconomics of the business.
It's a cure for insomnia forsome.
I found it fascinating.
Is there anything that stoodout to you?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yes, I had one that was a little bit more of a
travelogue and I know we don'tdo a ton of those here, but
there was an article in Harper'sMagazine called the Branson
Pilgrim.
The author's name let me lookthis up Raphael Kroll Zadie, I
think, is his name, and it's apersonal history and then an
actual history of Branson,missouri, and it's an attraction
(03:31):
that he's been going to foryears.
You know, when you and I weregrowing up, branson really had
kind of a cultural moment.
I think in the 80s and 90sBranson was like a legit
destination and in fact thearticle kind of goes into you
know the acts that sort offlirted with Duny Res residency
there, including Guns N' Rosesat the height of their power,
(03:51):
was actually thinking aboutdoing like a I don't know like a
three-month stint Branson,because it was sort of this you
know Gatlinburg, pigeon Forge,sort of.
You know Wisconsin Dells, ozarkkind of thing, and while those
places definitely haveconnotations with them, branson
(04:11):
was riding high and now that'ssort of crested and you know,
for all of its ridiculousness,there's kind of a raw humanity
to what this place was and whatthis place is the tackiness, the
crowded nature of it, but howand why people congregated there
.
And this guy really gets intoit.
(04:33):
The thing's probably like a10,000 word article.
The centerpiece of it is hisinterview with Yakov Smirnoff,
famed 80s comic.
He's actually a pretty eruditeguy.
He got his doctorate fromPepperdine later in his career
and sits down for a couple ofinterviews with him that are
pretty lucid and informative.
So yes, the Branson Pilgrim inHarper's for anybody who wants a
(04:59):
journey into the heart ofAmerica.
We don't get enough of thosethese days.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
I'd say it was one I want to read and have yet to be
satisfied with the death of thecookie and its resurrection by
Google.
There has been no shortage ofarticles on the subject, but I
have yet to find one that reallyaddresses the what to do.
It has been years in the making.
Everybody prepared, supposedlyI'm not sure what they did and
(05:27):
then all of a sudden, google'slike yeah, we're going to keep
it, it's helpful for us.
What do we actually do aboutthat?
This is the most core,fundamental thing in digital
marketing, and it totally went180 degrees twice.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Do you ever read the accept all or reject all
language for cookies on websitesOf?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
course not Right the fine print no.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
No, it's become the modern day version of the old
cell phone contracts, which noone ever reads.
I also want to recommend andagain these are a little more
travel versus travel business,but they do intersect Outside
Magazine, which always doesexcellent travel reporting, has
a writer named Gloria Liu whodid a great piece on I-70,
(06:12):
colorado's notoriouslygridlocked ski highway.
Anytime that she has reportagein Outside it's worth checking
out.
Also, the Washington Post has areally robust travel section
which I had not really keyedinto until this year.
They do a lot of articles thatare a little more consumer
friendly.
They're not coming at itstraight from the business side,
(06:34):
but they do mix and match thepersonal experience of travel
with the business side of it andI recommend that for anybody
who can kind of hustle their wayinto a post subscription.
Okay, here's what we'll do nexthere.
All right, jeff, here's one foryou.
Inspired by my father.
(06:54):
He sent me an article on La Pazin Mexico and how it's going to
be a hot destination.
Already is a hot destination,getting hotter by the by the
month.
What is the next hotdestination in the world for
people to go to that maybe hasnot been hot before?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Well, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is pouring cash
into their budding tourismindustry.
They'll host the first eSportsOlympics this year, 2025.
So that'll probably beliterally the hottest event in
2025.
The Year of the Snake in Chinaprobably will not be great for
travel to China, at least notfrom the Western Hemisphere yet,
(07:38):
but they'll be opening theworld's largest indoor ski
facility in Shenzhen.
You know, I think Europe isprobably the answer here, matt,
and it will stay hot.
The dollar is so strong.
Going abroad is going to remain, I think the MO for the
American traveler Dollar goes along way.
Internationals are stillprobably staying away from the
(07:59):
US.
Right, the inbound to the US.
We're still just on the valueof an elevated currency, 25 to
35% more expensive than we usedto be, and that'll have a
negative impact.
So, america not hot, europequite hot Within Europe, I think
.
The UK in particular.
The inaugural South bySouthwest London will take place
(08:21):
this June and, of course, youand I will be attending the
Great British Beer Festival inAugust, one of the world's great
beer festivals.
All this no-show cash, I mean.
I can't figure, any better wayfor us to go blow all this
sponsorship money we've beenraking in?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Let's go back for a second.
There's going to be a South bySouthwest in London.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
There is, yeah, the inaugural South by Southwest
London.
It shows you the power of thebrand South by Southwest.
It literally has to be in aplace that is south or southwest
of something.
That's true.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, it's tough to do it in Iceland, though I
wouldn't put it past them.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
The North by Northeast yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I had kind of thought South by was running out of
steam, but maybe I need to plugback into that.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Maybe that's why the move right.
They need a new audience.
Yeah, yeah, I also thinkthere's some, and this is just
me hypothesizing.
I think there's a Brexit factorwhere the UK is looking for
different ways to endear itselfto inbound markets now that it's
no longer free flow of trafficfrom the EU.
(09:28):
I suspect that, paradoxicallythough, the UK next month or in
the coming quarter willintroduce an arrival processing
that is elevated and a fee to goalong with it.
So come visit the UK.
We can't wait to see you.
By the way, here's morepaperwork than ever and a fine
for arriving.
But I do think Europe will stayhot.
(09:49):
Italy, heather and I will begoing there this coming summer.
Unfortunately, that overlapswith Jubilee, which is an event
that takes place every 25 years.
Catholics come around the worldto gather in Rome for some
spiritual.
We will not be joining thosefestivities, but I think Italy
itself will stay quite hot Nothot.
We mentioned US, but I think 26is going to be a great year.
(10:11):
So we're probably another yearaway from great inbound travel.
We host FIFA's World Cup.
Philadelphia has thesemi-quincentennial.
Say that a couple times forwhat we've been at the 250th
anniversary of the signing ofthe Declaration of Independence.
So there'll be all kinds offanfare and there'll be All-Star
in Philadelphia, right.
When Philly does well, americadoes well.
(10:33):
Right, it's not the mostvisited place and so it's kind
of a nice barometer for inboundUS travel.
If Philly is elevated in travelnumbers from outside the
country, the rest of the USshould do quite well.
But we're probably a year away.
All right, you ready for one?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Give it to me straight.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
You often ask our guests, Matt, if you could
change one thing about thetravel industry, what would it
be?
It's your turn on the hot seat.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
This sounds like abject fantasy.
Here it is.
Here's what I'd do if I couldsnap my fingers.
I would change everything aboutAmerica's attitude to
high-speed rail.
People say, well, that's nevergoing to happen.
We will never embracehigh-speed rail the way that
China or Europe has embraced itToday.
(11:17):
In China you can go thedistance of Chicago to New York
in four and a half hours.
It's 700 miles between Chicagoand New York.
There's no reason why those twocities in particular couldn't
link up with the East Coast in ahigh-speed train.
You could be there in six orseven hours.
And the argument is never thatwe're going to give up our cars
(11:40):
to take the train.
America will never give up itscars.
I get it.
The train is an alternative toairplanes.
Everybody complains about airtravel.
The romance of it is deadunless you're in business or
first class.
It's a hassle, it's expensiveand it's getting more expensive
by the day.
I think a train as a pitchargument of like would you
(12:04):
rather spend six hours on atrain or four hours on a flight?
I think people would choose thetrain because the experience
would be more scenic.
It might be more beneficial tothe environment.
But there's kind of studies outthere that trump up the
congestion part of it.
I think we have to kind of seewhat the effects of it were once
(12:27):
we implemented it.
I just wish the country wouldrethink it.
Southern California, they'rereally getting serious about
this about a high-speed train assoon as 2026 for a two-hour
ride between LA and Vegas.
I think that makes perfect senseand I just think there's so
many routes in the country wherewe could do it and we could do
(12:47):
it effectively.
Part of the problem now withrethinking it is that Amtrak
essentially shares a lot of itsline with freight companies.
So when you start talking abouthigh speed and when you start
talking about dedicated routes,you got a lot of other players
involved in making those kindsof decisions and doing extra
tracks and maintenance and it'sjust a shame that we kind of had
(13:12):
to sell out a little bit inorder to get some of these
tracks laid down, because itkind of impeded our future
thinking about what the waysthat these tracks could work my
formative years in travel werespent with a year rail pass in
pocket and several differentoccasions in my life I saw the
(13:33):
you know, nearly the entirety ofthe continent.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
because I could, because I had this pass and I
could go anywhere anytime.
I could reach every destinationin Europe by train, every
single one, and just being ableto do that, the only limitation
then was your desire to do it.
I think, as you and I talkoften about the value of travel
(14:00):
to humanity, right, the way yousee the world and the way you
change when you do, thattraining enables those benefits.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Next in the mailbag, Jeffrey.
What's the biggest trend comingfor the industry in 2025?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, I think guest expectations will soar and this
isn't necessarily new, but Ithink it's going to reach a real
pivotal moment in travel.
People are so tired ofinflation and shrinkflation.
The expectations have elevatedalong with prices, but the
(14:37):
prices stayed.
The guest experience, whetheryou're talking hotel or air, has
not, frankly, right.
Price went up, but the servicedelivery has really stayed.
I don't think there's muchtolerance for that anymore and I
think you're actually going tosee, in some of the same ways
that we've seen, real outlashfor over tourism Right, the
experience is bad, and I thinkover tourism, it's more like the
(15:00):
experience is bad for the local.
Right, the experience is bad,and I think over tourism, it's
more like the experience is badfor the local.
I think, in this case, theexperience, if it's not
excellent at today's elevatedprices, customers are going to
start pushing back in a verymeaningful and aggressive way,
and they can do that.
We can vote with their walletsand just not do it.
It can get surly with be it thedesk agents or hotel operator,
(15:23):
with air carriers and theirrepresentatives.
I expect customers to reallyuse their voices in a more
powerful and potentially evenkind of angry way.
It's not new here.
Right, this has been coming,but I think you're going to see
a real crunch time where productand service delivery better
improve.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Adjacently, you deal with hotel revenue every day and
I'll ask you one of my galacticquestions that I usually ask
our revenue guests what'ssomething about revenue that
hotels need to realize headinginto the new year?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Year over year is a silly measurement and I think
every year presents a unique setof problems, opportunities, you
name it, but no year is thesame as the year prior, no month
is the same as the month.
So I think our metrics arereally messy, right.
I think they mislead thebusiness leaders because we're
so drawn habitually to compareeverything we do to year over
(16:23):
year performance.
And, matt, this year we willnot have a February 29.
I mean now, practically, doesthat matter at all?
It does not, but in reportingit will, and the way people are
measured and bonused and thethings they try to do, the
tactical actions that they willgo put in play, simply because
(16:46):
one day of a calendar is missing.
And so it changes thecomplexion of that month Easter,
moving from March to fully inthe back of April.
It'll be on 420 this year.
Is it any different?
We had Easter every year forwell, let's just call it 2000
years all round.
(17:07):
Right, it doesn't changeanything about the business, but
we continue to get distractedby the silliness of the measure.
I mean, I think maybe the betteror the easier example to
illustrate that is in thefestive season of Christmas, new
Year's, jewish holidays, duringthat period we see.
(17:31):
A few weeks from now, christmaswill fall on a Wednesday.
New Year's Eve will follow onthe following Wednesday.
Two years ago they were on aMonday, and so the travel
patterns were wildly different,as people took a whole week off
when it was a Monday Monday,right, there was one really good
week of travel in there.
But everybody is kind ofexpected to come back to work on
(17:53):
January 2, which was aWednesday, and finish that up
for a half week, whereas thisyear, with two Wednesday
holidays and back-to-back weeks,it really messes up from a work
pattern.
If maybe it's a good thing or abad thing, take your pick right
, but there are two weeks thatare essentially not going to be
working.
That kind of thing changes thetravel demand pattern
(18:16):
significantly all right.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Do regular people care about hotel brands?
Speaker 2 (18:24):
If you look at it from a loyalty perspective, I
think loyalty is mistaken.
Right, if you translate your dothey care?
Into our people loyal, I thinkthey are transactionally
conditioned to return to thesame brand umbrellas.
But no, I really there aren't.
No, I don't think so.
(18:47):
If I blindfolded you and walkedyou through the Hilton Garden
Inn and a courtyard, could youtell I mean, the blindfold's
probably not the right analogy,but if I stripped all the color
and the branding off of thosebuildings and walked you through
the lobby up to your room, allthe color and the branding off
of those buildings, and walkedyou through the lobby up to your
room, could you tell thedifference?
I?
I like to look at merch in thisway, right, uh, at the very
(19:08):
high-end luxury places, peoplelove to go into the gift shop
and buy the merch it says.
I was there, I was at theritz-carlton, whatever, the four
seasons something, the aman,whatever, uh, people like to to
wear it around.
I don't know that's loyalty,though.
Right, I think that's just atrophy.
I want to announce to the worldthat we just got back from a
(19:30):
ski vacation at this phenomenalresort.
Like, I want to say that, andso I wear it, but I don't really
see that, as do they care aboutthe brand, probably not only
for the way it makes them lookRight.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
You don't.
It makes them look right, right.
You don't see a ton of people.
You don't see a ton of peoplejust walking around with like
hilton sweatshirts right.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
If they do, they work for hilton right, right, of
course, but you're not.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
You're not cruising down the street like I'll go
down to the, I'll go down andget lunch somewhere.
Let me just throw on my this uh60 hoodie with Marriott on the
on the front of it.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
I don't see that too often.
Look at what they sell, do yousee?
You know a courtyard sellingmerch out of its gift shop?
Speaker 1 (20:13):
No, no, no, and I mean the Vegas hotels.
But that's to your point,that's the.
That's like a ski resort.
To your point, that's like aski resort.
It's a destination versus likea property, and I think you can
definitely have people who areloyal to certain locations for
business reasons.
I think you're right about thetransactional part of it.
I do this because I get a lotof points.
(20:35):
I travel all the time for workand it just makes sense because
the places I travel have prettygood Marriotts, so I'm just
going to stay there or I have togo to these three cities a
pretty decent amount for work,and the hotels are essentially
across the street from theoffices that I need to visit
there.
Once you take away thefunctionality of the places,
(21:03):
there are very few propertiesthat I think people are like oh
yeah, I'm oiled at that place,Just love it, I got to get back
there.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I have come to appreciate Hyatt in this way
where I think because it hasstayed relatively small, which
is a weird thing to say it's thefifth largest hotel company, or
something like that in numberof hotels.
But the composition of theHyatt portfolio is mostly
full-service, luxury,wellness-focused, these really
exceptional properties.
(21:28):
And so when you think of thebig hotel companies and of
course there's Marriott andHilton Hyatt rolls right off the
tongue.
Ihg and Choice are in there too, but of those major major
players, I think Hyatt probablyhas true loyal guests and it's
because they aren't doing.
(21:48):
200 million members, that'stransactional.
I need my points, I'm going totravel all the time.
Just give me my points.
I want free wifi.
Sign me up, sure.
Whatever the product portfolioand the relatively small size of
its loyalty program, I thinkyou probably do find people who
are genuinely saying I onlytravel to Hyatt because I want
(22:11):
that, not because the rewardsare so appealing, right.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
All right, we have time for one more here.
What do you want to do?
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Well, Matt, ultimately, you know, as the
year draws to a close, all of usin HR, especially here at no
Show, where we have a veryaggressive human resources
department- I just want to knowin my review what can I do
better on this podcast?
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Matt, give me my annual review please, so you
want you want me to tell youwhat you can do better on no
show.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yes, please.
It's.
It's time for my annual review.
What do I need to do better?
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Well, your your audio quality has improved over the
year, so kudos on that.
Your preparation for the showis tremendous and I rely on it.
The whole team here relies onit.
It's hard for me to think of anarea of improvement.
I think the one thing I wasthinking just in general is I've
(23:11):
always wanted to kind ofcapture the colloquial kind of
back and forth we have about thetravel business Because, as I
mentioned at the top of the show, we're able to talk about it in
a way that can be deep and canget into some of the numbers,
but not be so far in the weedsthat you're just at a five-day
(23:36):
finance meeting, and I thinkthat's something that we've
improved upon.
But I think that's somethingthat we improved upon.
But I think it's something thatI think both of us can probably
think about first and foremostwhen we talk about these topics
and when we we engage guests,because the guests that we talk
(23:56):
to often are, you talk about, inthe weeds.
These are people we've we'vebeen very fortunate to talk to,
people who are are the expertsin their field and they will
just go a mile a minute and it'simpressive to kind of hear
their command of the industryand command of numbers around
the industry, and I think wealways have to kind of remember
that um and I need to do this insome of the editing too it's
(24:20):
it's like go back and definestatistics and define acronyms,
because even people in thetravel business might not know
everything that you're talkingabout.
So I think, just stay curious,jeff, stay curious.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Prepare less.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
No, definitely don't prepare less.
I need it.
I need that preparation, don'tprepare less.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
I need it.
I need that preparation,Thinking through more
proactively the balance that wehave of a really meaty business
subject.
You know, let's pull this backand understand it.
I love that part of what we doand I truly think it's unlike
what anybody does.
Nobody does this when we pullit back and say how does this
part of the business work?
Speaker 1 (25:03):
We're unique in that.
So, in conclusion, we're doinggreat and I just want to thank
all the fake listeners out there, because your support means a
lot to us.
There we go.
It's no show.
Oh, I didn't even do the intro.
Hey, everybody, it's no show.
Sorry, jeff and Matt, whatwould you like to say at the end
?
What would you like to say atthe end?
Anything in particular, that'sokay.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
if you don't, no, we're good.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Happy holidays everyone, and we will see you
soon.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
They don't call him the best color man in the
business for nothing, folks.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
See you later.
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