June 4, 2025 • 26 mins
Jeff and Matt speak with Heather Heverling, President and Managing Director of Audley Travel, about the stratospheric rise of bespoke travel, the purchasing power of solo female travelers, the growing desire for unique in-country experiences, the need for local connections, the trip that totally subverted her expectations, and what makes Audley Travel different in the travel market.
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Episode Transcript
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Matt Brown (00:07):
Hi everybody, it's no Show with Matt Brown and Jeff
Borman.
Two years ago, bespoke touroperator Audley Travel announced
the appointment of HeatherHeverlyne as president and
managing director of its USbusiness, and they could not
have picked a better ambassadorfor travel.
Prior to her appointment,heverlyne was president of
adventure tour operator.
Adventure Women was senior vicepresident of product management
(00:30):
at National Geographic and thesenior vice president of
worldwide operations at GrandCircle Corporation.
Now, 25 years and 40 countrieslater, she's been named as
2024's most influential women intravel by Travel Pulse, is a
go-to expert called upon by NBCNews and the New York Times and
scores of other media outlets,and she is a phenomenal advocate
(00:50):
for the role of women in thetravel industry, including
everyone from executivemanagement in the US to female
guides and accommodation ownersall over the world.
Her life is travel and all ofour lives are better for it.
Heather, welcome to no Show.
Heather Heverling (01:04):
Thank you so much for having me today.
Really excited to be here.
Matt Brown (01:09):
Let's begin at the beginning.
What is Audley Travel and whatmakes it different?
Heather Heverling (01:16):
Audley Travel originally was a UK company and
has been operating in the UKfor 30 years now, and has been
operating in the UK for 30 yearsnow.
10 years ago they decided tobranch out into the US market.
What we focus on in terms of ourbusiness model is that we
provide completely customizedtrips to countries on every
(01:38):
continent of the globe, and whatthat means is every trip that
we design is unique to theclient who calls in and wants to
work with one of our countryspecialists and to touch on what
sets us apart from all of ourcompetition and other companies
in the travel industry is ourcountry specialist.
(01:59):
They come to Audley having hadeither lived or worked or
traveled extensively in thecountry where they've previously
lived, so that they can getreally up-to-date and current
(02:28):
insider knowledge about thedestination that they'll be
selling.
So really they offer ourclients, I would say, firsthand
insights that people wouldn't beable to find through a Google
search or through a guidebook.
You know, from a hidden gemtype of restaurant to the best
room in a hotel to get sunsetviews.
(02:48):
So we really invest a lot ofour time in finding the best
possible candidates to servethis country specialist role so
that they can deliver the bestservice to our clients start to
finish.
Jeff Borman (03:02):
I've been a customer of Audley for many
years.
I didn't realize until rightnow that it's probably the point
at which, 10 years ago, theymade the leap to the US Twice in
South America.
Three times trips during MiddleEast Africa, currently planning
something with Samantha toSicily, Most recently when the
earthquake hit Morocco in thefall of 23, Corinne and I had to
(03:25):
postpone that trip for anentire year and on two weeks
notice Liz was able to create anentire itinerary for us to
Egypt and not many agenciescould have pulled that off.
Talk to me a bit about howAudley uses guides for different
experiences in differentcountries and what's the
relationship and the dynamiclike between the planning and
the on-the-ground guide work.
Heather Heverling (03:47):
Guides are absolutely essential, I would
say, to any travel experienceand at Audley we really pride
ourselves on working with thebest possible guides in each
country where we operate Privateguiding, which is what we focus
on, because our trips are allpersonalized and customized.
It's very different from groupguiding because, in addition to
(04:09):
having you know outstandinglocal and historical knowledge,
you have to be particularlyattuned to the specific
interests, dietary restrictionsand physical ability of each
individual client.
When you're guiding for Audley,you know I always use an
example from my travels withoddly.
I am not big on having my phototaken.
(04:31):
I love to take tons of picturesof the destinations when I'm
traveling.
I just choose to not be in themand guides will typically, you
know they always offer oh, doyou want me to take a picture of
you here or there?
Our guides at oddly they theminute they know that you're not
interested in that, they won'tkeep trying to offer you again
and again oh, do you want me totake your photo?
(04:53):
They know your dietaryrestrictions.
I am allergic to seafood.
In Portugal they have tons ofamazing seafood at hand and a
lot of dining experiences aretypically built around eating
fish or something near the water.
They know up front that I can'tdo that, so it's not even
mentioned on the itinerary as apossible dining stop.
(05:15):
So it's really thatpersonalized, individual,
one-to-one service that ourguides.
They're chosen and selected byAudley for their skill in that
area.
Guides are so critical to whatwe do that we actually have
every other year we hold theguide awards.
In 2023, we had our 10th everAudley guide awards in Saigon
(05:41):
and we honored 38 guides whowork with us throughout the
world for their excellent workwith Audley clients.
So it's really important for usthat we have the right people
in country to not only give ourclients a wealth of knowledge
and history and understandingabout the culture, but also just
(06:02):
to make sure that every singleexperience in country is really
tailor-made to that individualclient and their preferences.
Jeff Borman (06:11):
It's totally the guides that make the in-country
experience unique.
My wife doesn't like thisphrase, but I often say she and
I travel mouth first.
The personal experiences thatthey enable are what a travel
pro like me can't do.
I can plan hotels and air andtravel components, but the
deepest experiences that arefacilitated by Audley are the
(06:32):
on-ground authentic connectionsI mentioned.
A few months ago we did go toMorocco through Audley and my
wife Heather and I and ourdriver Basri, our guide Badr, an
octogenarian Berber woman, andour driver Basri, our guide,
bought her, an octogenarianBerber woman.
We literally made breadtogether over a fire outside of
her house in the high AtlasMountains, then broke bread
(06:52):
together in her home without aword in common and it was one of
the most memorable moments ofour two weeks.
And when a random goat joinedour gathering, just walked right
in the house, right Likethere's no way without your team
of planners and guides thatcould have come anywhere close
to that experience and maybe myfavorite of that whole trip,
(07:13):
most memorable.
Heather Heverling (07:15):
I always say personally that you know, when
you travel you see lots ofarchitecture or monuments and
museums and that's great, butwhat I always bring home with me
in my heart and my memories,it's always the interactions
with people.
The people stay with youforever and the guides for us at
(07:36):
Audley are really the conduitto building that connection
between the client and thelocals in country where our
clients are traveling.
Jeff Borman (07:46):
The guides are part of the experience themselves
too, not just facilitating theconnection points.
Getting to know a country and aculture happens by spending a
lot of time in the car with themand on hikes with them.
The ambassador is really thatoddly presents to the client.
The ambassador is really thatoddly presents to the client.
(08:06):
Botter, one of our guides inthe Atlas Mountains, shared a
particularly personal storyabout when COVID shut down his
livelihood for over a year andoddly subsidized something like
60% of his pay to help hisfamily through Five-time.
Client had never heard that.
It didn't seem like somethingyou were really marketing and I
kind of applaud you if that'strue.
(08:28):
But tell us about the AudleyFoundation, because that really
knocked me back.
Heather Heverling (08:32):
Yeah, you know to your point.
The Audley Foundation isn'tsomething that we really shout
from the rooftops that we'redoing because it's not a
marketing gimmick or ploy for us.
It's really just about, youknow, being able to give back to
the communities where we traveland that's really something
that's organic.
In Audley's impoverishedvillages in the Atlas Mountains,
(08:54):
which is an area close toMarrakesh in Morocco, each
village our local supplier whowe work with in Morocco they've
(09:16):
built a preschool center in eachvillage and that gives young
children the opportunity toreceive a basic education, gives
young children the opportunityto receive a basic education.
It's also used to teach localwomen literacy and practical
skills like sewing or cooking.
It's not just important thatwe're giving back to local
communities as a whole, butspecifically really trying to
(09:39):
focus on local women.
I'd say, just in terms of whatyou mentioned, jeff, in terms of
your travel experience and thatthe guide mentioned, that we
subsidized some of the wagesfollowing the earthquake which
struck in I think it wasSeptember of 2023.
The foundation really, you know,leapt into action, launched an
(10:02):
international campaign to raisefunds to purchase supplies and
to help get them to some ofthese remote communities.
We ensured at Audley, as part ofthis that you know a lot of
travel companies canceled theircontracts with some of the tour
operators and providers on theground in Morocco and really
just kind of stopped sendingtravelers.
(10:23):
And you know we made acommitment to our partners and
the guides that work for ourpartners that we were not going
to abandon them in really acritical time of need, and so we
continued with our contract andcontinued working with not only
our local operator there butalso the people, specifically
(10:45):
the guides, who we know are justmission critical to our overall
client experience at Audley.
So giving back, it's reallyimportant to us.
We did become B Corp certifiedin May of 2023.
And a big piece of thatcertification was around a lot
(11:06):
of the activities that we havein place as an organization, not
only to give back in thedestinations where we travel,
but also to give back to thecommunities where we have our
offices, both in the UK and herein the US.
Matt Brown (11:21):
Nearly 40% of female travelers voiced interest in
setting out solo in 2025.
And there are percentage spikesacross the spectrum of women
who want to travel by themselvesor in groups, and the numbers
are dramatically higher thanthey were even five years ago or
10 years ago.
What do you think is drivingthat?
Heather Heverling (11:49):
is driving that.
Yeah, you know it's funny.
I am asked about this often andwhat's funny to me is that this
isn't really a new phenomenonand, when you look historically,
over 80% of travel decisionsare now and have always been
made by women.
I think what's gaining tractionnow, and why we're seeing a lot
more about this in the press,is that before, I think women
were behind the scenes makingtravel decisions about what
(12:12):
destination to see next or howlong they would go.
But we typically tend to travelwith a partner, and now women
are really feeling empowered totravel alone, without their
partner or when they're single.
I can say personally, I'vealways been a single traveler.
I prefer it because I reallythink that traveling solo gives
(12:37):
you the opportunity toexperience really authentically
the local culture, becauseyou're able to do more things.
When it's just one of you,versus even a small group,
you're able to, I think, makemore meaningful and lasting
connections with the people inthe destination where you travel
.
I always say that I learn moreabout myself when I travel alone
(13:02):
than anywhere else in the world, even here at home, because I
think when you travel alone, youget outside of your comfort
zone.
You maybe try foods that youwouldn't have tried otherwise,
or you take one step furtherthan maybe you would have.
I bungee jumped off theVictoria Falls Bridge in
(13:24):
Zimbabwe.
I'm not a daredevil, but I justthought OK, I'm here, this is
an incredible opportunity, I'mgoing to go for it.
Matt Brown (13:34):
Heather, when you first started in the industry,
did you observe a gender bias intravel, either on the marketing
side or compensation, or to theUX of the trip itself, and, if
so, have those biases changedover the last couple of decades?
Heather Heverling (13:52):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
So, despite the fact that, as Imentioned, you know, 80% of
travel decisions or more havealways been made by women, when
you look at companies where I'veworked anyway, it's been pretty
consistent in terms of gendersplit that there would be more
female employees.
However, there's always beenoverall low representation of
(14:18):
women in leadership positions.
So senior management or on theboard, I'd say you know
decision-making positions, havetypically been filled with men.
Looking at compensation, youknow it kind of carries through
to that.
So even if a woman was in acommensurate role with a male
(14:41):
counterpart, typically theywould make less.
And I think to your point aroundUX and trip design and all of
that absolutely marketing voicewas never really geared towards
women in the past.
And so I think for me, kind ofcoming up in the travel industry
, you know I always looked forfemale mentorship to try to grow
(15:05):
.
You know I am very ambitious, Ialways want to learn, I think
you can always be better and I'ma sponge and I want to always
do more and learn more and Ireally struggled to find some
strong female leaders to helpsort of guide me through my
career path.
And looking at where we aretoday, you know, we've
(15:27):
definitely made progress and I'mreally proud, I think, to be
part of some of that progress.
But there's still, you know, asalways, there's still more work
to be done.
Fewer than 20% of managementroles and fewer than 10% of
board seats are held by women inthe travel industry even today.
So we've made huge inroadsthere, but there's obviously a
(15:50):
lot more opportunity ahead.
Pay parity has definitelyimproved significantly over the
course of my career, and thereare.
You know, I'm on the board forAudley.
I am acting as the presidentand managing director for the US
business, so I'm really proudto be sitting in a pretty high
(16:12):
leadership role within theindustry.
I think another thing that'sreally important to me that
Audley supports really wellthrough some of the initiatives
we do is it's not just in thecompanies here in the US that
are selling trips to get peopleinto the destination.
I think equally important istrying to raise up and empower
(16:35):
the women in those localdestinations where we travel.
That's to me, a huge area ofopportunity going forward, and
females really haven't had thosechances to be a business owner
or to make money through tourismin the past, and so the more
(16:56):
that we can encourage womenguides, which 20 years ago there
was no such thing as womenguides.
Really, in a lot of countriesaround the world there are more
and more female guides thatwe're seeing, even in countries
where historically like Moroccois a great example Traditionally
there weren't women guidesthere at all, and now there are
(17:17):
more and more.
So trying to provideopportunities for Audley to work
with some women in countries sothat they can make money doing
what they love in this industryis really, really important.
Jeff Borman (17:31):
It travels an incredible vehicle to distribute
money from the wealthiest tothe most needy countries, to
directly to the most needypeople, in many cases helping
create direct, meaningfulexperiences that promote
humanity and kindness and thepreservation of culture.
I could go on all day.
I can hardly think of a morenoble profession than
(17:53):
facilitating travel andhospitality.
What is the best kept secretabout travel advisors?
Heather Heverling (18:00):
Maybe people don't know about it as much as
they should, but the reality isfor us at Audley and our country
specialists I mentioned earlierbut they've actually they
haven't just visited thecountries that they sell,
they've lived there, they'veworked there, they have been a
part of that local fabric andthat culture and so they know so
(18:25):
many insider tips and justnuances about how things work
and operate in the countriesthat they sell.
They absolutely love sharing allof that wisdom and knowledge
and experience with our clients.
They really want to make theexperiences as personal and
(18:50):
unique as possible.
Every day that our countryspecialists are doing a video
call or on the phone with apotential client and learning
about what they like in terms oftravel experiences and style,
they're kind of reliving againtheir own experiences as country
specialists when they lived inthese countries and it's a way
(19:13):
that you know, no two trips arethe same in terms of what we put
together for our clients and sothey love it.
It's not boring, it's not abusiness transaction for us at
all.
It's really a love of traveland just a pride in sharing
knowledge with our clients.
Jeff Borman (19:34):
What's the thing they would cut out?
He pulled all of your planners.
One thing they would say I wishthat wasn't part or much easier
part of my job um flights ofcourse I mean, it's the thing
that no one likes, right?
Heather Heverling (19:51):
I mean, I think the worst, I think
everyone can agree that theworst part of any travel
experience is typically whenyou're on the plane getting to
and from that country.
I think just the number ofcarriers that are out there, you
know points, miles, there'sjust a lot, and I think it's
(20:12):
always the least favorite partof anyone's travel experience.
So if we didn't have to dealwith that, I think our country
specialists would be thrilledbecause they could just talk
about Italy or Japan until thecows come home, because that's
what they love, or Japan tillthe cows come home, because
that's what they love.
Jeff Borman (20:30):
Audley caters to a pretty well-off demographic and
that same demographic tends toalso have you mentioned points,
a whole lot of points, that theyuse for travel.
That's probably not veryconvenient for your teams, right
?
In order to book and use all myBonvoy points well, I wouldn't
call Audley to do it.
In order to redeem my AmericanAirlines points?
(20:52):
I don't call Audley to do that.
Is the growth of loyaltyprograms kind of a hidden threat
to the business?
Heather Heverling (21:01):
Well.
So in terms of airline pointsand miles, we do actually work
with our clients so that theycan use them when they're
booking flights through Audley.
So we have learned.
You know, just like AI andother advancements in technology
and in the industry, you haveto adapt and change and you need
(21:23):
, you know, you need to embracechange and look at it as an
opportunity.
And so for us, we know thatthose loyalty programs are.
I personally am a huge loyaltyprogram person.
You said Marriott Bonvoy.
The minute I'm going anywhere,I'm Googling is there a Marriott
here, a courtyard, whatever itis?
(21:44):
I'm there, I want to get mynights and get my credit.
We know that that's importantto our travelers.
So we have modified, I wouldsay, where our business model
was when we first started in theUS 10 years ago to today, to
make sure that we are again.
Just the client comes first.
So everything we do, it's basedon what works best for the
(22:06):
client.
So you want to use airlinemiles?
We can make it happen.
Matt Brown (22:12):
It's time for the lightning round Heather,
favorite national park from anycountry, including the US.
Heather Heverling (22:21):
All right, I'm going to say probably one
that most people wouldn't.
I'm going to say the LakeDistrict in the United Kingdom.
It's the biggest national parkin the UK and it's really just
the.
It's just where people live.
It's not some like walled offpiece of land.
People live there and I've hadthe pleasure of hiking through
(22:44):
there, meeting lots of people,and it was absolutely
breathtaking and a good workout.
Matt Brown (22:49):
It also sounds like the perfect place if Top Gear is
any guide to go caravanning.
It's a big caravanning areawhere people can go up and take
their trailers and just camp outfor a summer.
Heather Heverling (23:01):
Yes, and people do that along the way.
Some people hike coast to coast, others will hike a bit and
then, yeah, they'll have acaravan and they'll camp out for
a night and then have someonemeet them miles and miles down
the road at the end of theirnext hiking segment.
Jeff Borman (23:19):
What's the strangest thing you've ever
eaten?
Heather Heverling (23:23):
Oh well, you know, they say it's always
better when it's fried.
So I've had a fried cockroachin Zimbabwe, I've had fried
crickets in Thailand and somehowit doesn't taste like chicken.
Matt Brown (23:38):
But putting that stuff in the fryer makes it
edible country in 2025 to visiton a budget you just mentioned.
I think you were just quoted inthe New York Times about Laos,
so it can't be Laos.
Heather Heverling (23:54):
It has to be something else.
Matt Brown (23:55):
We want fresh material.
Heather Heverling (23:56):
Well, this is cheating, but it's accurate and
true.
So Laos, neighbors, thailand,vietnam, cambodia, anything
really in Southeast Asia, yourdollar goes so far and the value
for money is off the charts.
Jeff Borman (24:13):
Recommended travel related book.
Heather Heverling (24:17):
Oh, this one's easy because I just
finished it this weekend.
I'm a voracious reader andactually ties in with some of
the things we were talking aboutearlier.
It's called 12 Trips in 12Months by Jen Ruiz, and it's all
(24:38):
about traveling as a solo womanand there were so many things
that she mentioned in the bookthat really resonated with me
around some of my travelexperiences and how you know the
serendipity that happens whenyou travel and you just find
yourself and especially when youtravel alone, you find yourself
in these situations that wereunplanned and weren't
necessarily part of youritinerary, but where you meet a
(25:01):
local person or you do, you know, you cook a meal with them, or
you make an art or craft withthem and you and it just brings
the whole destination to life.
So it really just resonatedwith me on so many levels.
Go buy it, read it.
It's a good one.
Matt Brown (25:21):
A trip that totally subverted your expectations for
for good or for ill A thing, atrip that you were planning on,
and it's like I know what I'mgetting into.
And then you arrived in countryand it's like, wow, this is not
what I expected and I can'twait to see what's going to
happen next.
Heather Heverling (25:41):
I would say Myanmar.
So I traveled to Myanmar over adecade ago, when it was really
just opening up for tourism and,you know, you couldn't use your
cell phone, couldn't use creditcards, you couldn't.
There was no money exchange.
You had to go to a black market, like hole in the wall, and you
(26:05):
had to bring like a certainkind of $20 bill and and so,
going in, I, it just all seemedvery rigid and, um, just that,
the infrastructure wasn't thereand it was just going to be like
a very bare bones kind ofexperience.
And I again, the thing that Ibrought home from that trip,
(26:28):
that just it, it was not at allbare bones but absolutely filled
my heart and my spirit.
The local people there wereabsolutely incredible and they
couldn't speak English at all.
Um, and they know, this one manat night took me in into his
(26:51):
home where he lived, which wasin the middle of this jungle.
They had a car battery that washooked up to a TV and they were
watching reruns of the JohnnyCarson show in the middle of
nowhere and they just keptfeeding me bananas because
that's all they had and that wastheir.
You know the way of showingtheir hospitality, the warmth
(27:16):
and the compassion and just thespirit of these people was just
overwhelming.
And I went to a school.
Sorry, I'm rambling a little bitbecause now I'm remembering all
the things about the trip, butI went to a school and I tried
to teach them math, you knowagain not speaking each other's
language and the whole time thatthe kids were staring at me and
(27:38):
they finally, as I was leaving,the kids circled around me and
they wanted to touch my hairbecause they had never seen a
person with blonde hair before.
And I have this photo of mestanding in the middle of all
these kids touching my hairbecause they just they, they had
no idea, they thought I waslike a spirit from another
(28:00):
planet or something, and it justto see the wonderment in their
eyes and to be able to have beenpart of that experience.
For them.
It changed my life forever.
I mean, those are the thingsthat stay in my heart forever.
And, yeah, like you said, Icould keep going.
I have so many memories fromthat one trip and there's been
(28:21):
so many trips and I hope thatthere are many, many more to
come in the future.
I always feel full in terms ofmind, body and spirit when I
come home from traveling becauseit's always memorable and
usually in some way it changeswho I am as a person and just
(28:44):
gives me a whole new outlook andperspective.
Hi everybody, it's no Show with Matt Brown and Jeff
Borman.
Two years ago, bespoke touroperator Audley Travel announced
the appointment of HeatherHeverlyne as president and
managing director of its USbusiness, and they could not
have picked a better ambassadorfor travel.
Prior to her appointment,heverlyne was president of
adventure tour operator.
Adventure Women was senior vicepresident of product management
(00:30):
at National Geographic and thesenior vice president of
worldwide operations at GrandCircle Corporation.
Now, 25 years and 40 countrieslater, she's been named as
2024's most influential women intravel by Travel Pulse, is a
go-to expert called upon by NBCNews and the New York Times and
scores of other media outlets,and she is a phenomenal advocate
(00:50):
for the role of women in thetravel industry, including
everyone from executivemanagement in the US to female
guides and accommodation ownersall over the world.
Her life is travel and all ofour lives are better for it.
Heather, welcome to no Show.
Heather Heverling (01:04):
Thank you so much for having me today.
Really excited to be here.
Matt Brown (01:09):
Let's begin at the beginning.
What is Audley Travel and whatmakes it different?
Heather Heverling (01:16):
Audley Travel originally was a UK company and
has been operating in the UKfor 30 years now, and has been
operating in the UK for 30 yearsnow.
10 years ago they decided tobranch out into the US market.
What we focus on in terms of ourbusiness model is that we
provide completely customizedtrips to countries on every
(01:38):
continent of the globe, and whatthat means is every trip that
we design is unique to theclient who calls in and wants to
work with one of our countryspecialists and to touch on what
sets us apart from all of ourcompetition and other companies
in the travel industry is ourcountry specialist.
(01:59):
They come to Audley having hadeither lived or worked or
traveled extensively in thecountry where they've previously
lived, so that they can getreally up-to-date and current
(02:28):
insider knowledge about thedestination that they'll be
selling.
So really they offer ourclients, I would say, firsthand
insights that people wouldn't beable to find through a Google
search or through a guidebook.
You know, from a hidden gemtype of restaurant to the best
room in a hotel to get sunsetviews.
(02:48):
So we really invest a lot ofour time in finding the best
possible candidates to servethis country specialist role so
that they can deliver the bestservice to our clients start to
finish.
Jeff Borman (03:02):
I've been a customer of Audley for many
years.
I didn't realize until rightnow that it's probably the point
at which, 10 years ago, theymade the leap to the US Twice in
South America.
Three times trips during MiddleEast Africa, currently planning
something with Samantha toSicily, Most recently when the
earthquake hit Morocco in thefall of 23, Corinne and I had to
(03:25):
postpone that trip for anentire year and on two weeks
notice Liz was able to create anentire itinerary for us to
Egypt and not many agenciescould have pulled that off.
Talk to me a bit about howAudley uses guides for different
experiences in differentcountries and what's the
relationship and the dynamiclike between the planning and
the on-the-ground guide work.
Heather Heverling (03:47):
Guides are absolutely essential, I would
say, to any travel experienceand at Audley we really pride
ourselves on working with thebest possible guides in each
country where we operate Privateguiding, which is what we focus
on, because our trips are allpersonalized and customized.
It's very different from groupguiding because, in addition to
(04:09):
having you know outstandinglocal and historical knowledge,
you have to be particularlyattuned to the specific
interests, dietary restrictionsand physical ability of each
individual client.
When you're guiding for Audley,you know I always use an
example from my travels withoddly.
I am not big on having my phototaken.
(04:31):
I love to take tons of picturesof the destinations when I'm
traveling.
I just choose to not be in themand guides will typically, you
know they always offer oh, doyou want me to take a picture of
you here or there?
Our guides at oddly they theminute they know that you're not
interested in that, they won'tkeep trying to offer you again
and again oh, do you want me totake your photo?
(04:53):
They know your dietaryrestrictions.
I am allergic to seafood.
In Portugal they have tons ofamazing seafood at hand and a
lot of dining experiences aretypically built around eating
fish or something near the water.
They know up front that I can'tdo that, so it's not even
mentioned on the itinerary as apossible dining stop.
(05:15):
So it's really thatpersonalized, individual,
one-to-one service that ourguides.
They're chosen and selected byAudley for their skill in that
area.
Guides are so critical to whatwe do that we actually have
every other year we hold theguide awards.
In 2023, we had our 10th everAudley guide awards in Saigon
(05:41):
and we honored 38 guides whowork with us throughout the
world for their excellent workwith Audley clients.
So it's really important for usthat we have the right people
in country to not only give ourclients a wealth of knowledge
and history and understandingabout the culture, but also just
(06:02):
to make sure that every singleexperience in country is really
tailor-made to that individualclient and their preferences.
Jeff Borman (06:11):
It's totally the guides that make the in-country
experience unique.
My wife doesn't like thisphrase, but I often say she and
I travel mouth first.
The personal experiences thatthey enable are what a travel
pro like me can't do.
I can plan hotels and air andtravel components, but the
deepest experiences that arefacilitated by Audley are the
(06:32):
on-ground authentic connectionsI mentioned.
A few months ago we did go toMorocco through Audley and my
wife Heather and I and ourdriver Basri, our guide Badr, an
octogenarian Berber woman, andour driver Basri, our guide,
bought her, an octogenarianBerber woman.
We literally made breadtogether over a fire outside of
her house in the high AtlasMountains, then broke bread
(06:52):
together in her home without aword in common and it was one of
the most memorable moments ofour two weeks.
And when a random goat joinedour gathering, just walked right
in the house, right Likethere's no way without your team
of planners and guides thatcould have come anywhere close
to that experience and maybe myfavorite of that whole trip,
(07:13):
most memorable.
Heather Heverling (07:15):
I always say personally that you know, when
you travel you see lots ofarchitecture or monuments and
museums and that's great, butwhat I always bring home with me
in my heart and my memories,it's always the interactions
with people.
The people stay with youforever and the guides for us at
(07:36):
Audley are really the conduitto building that connection
between the client and thelocals in country where our
clients are traveling.
Jeff Borman (07:46):
The guides are part of the experience themselves
too, not just facilitating theconnection points.
Getting to know a country and aculture happens by spending a
lot of time in the car with themand on hikes with them.
The ambassador is really thatoddly presents to the client.
The ambassador is really thatoddly presents to the client.
(08:06):
Botter, one of our guides inthe Atlas Mountains, shared a
particularly personal storyabout when COVID shut down his
livelihood for over a year andoddly subsidized something like
60% of his pay to help hisfamily through Five-time.
Client had never heard that.
It didn't seem like somethingyou were really marketing and I
kind of applaud you if that'strue.
(08:28):
But tell us about the AudleyFoundation, because that really
knocked me back.
Heather Heverling (08:32):
Yeah, you know to your point.
The Audley Foundation isn'tsomething that we really shout
from the rooftops that we'redoing because it's not a
marketing gimmick or ploy for us.
It's really just about, youknow, being able to give back to
the communities where we traveland that's really something
that's organic.
In Audley's impoverishedvillages in the Atlas Mountains,
(08:54):
which is an area close toMarrakesh in Morocco, each
village our local supplier whowe work with in Morocco they've
(09:16):
built a preschool center in eachvillage and that gives young
children the opportunity toreceive a basic education, gives
young children the opportunityto receive a basic education.
It's also used to teach localwomen literacy and practical
skills like sewing or cooking.
It's not just important thatwe're giving back to local
communities as a whole, butspecifically really trying to
(09:39):
focus on local women.
I'd say, just in terms of whatyou mentioned, jeff, in terms of
your travel experience and thatthe guide mentioned, that we
subsidized some of the wagesfollowing the earthquake which
struck in I think it wasSeptember of 2023.
The foundation really, you know,leapt into action, launched an
(10:02):
international campaign to raisefunds to purchase supplies and
to help get them to some ofthese remote communities.
We ensured at Audley, as part ofthis that you know a lot of
travel companies canceled theircontracts with some of the tour
operators and providers on theground in Morocco and really
just kind of stopped sendingtravelers.
(10:23):
And you know we made acommitment to our partners and
the guides that work for ourpartners that we were not going
to abandon them in really acritical time of need, and so we
continued with our contract andcontinued working with not only
our local operator there butalso the people, specifically
(10:45):
the guides, who we know are justmission critical to our overall
client experience at Audley.
So giving back, it's reallyimportant to us.
We did become B Corp certifiedin May of 2023.
And a big piece of thatcertification was around a lot
(11:06):
of the activities that we havein place as an organization, not
only to give back in thedestinations where we travel,
but also to give back to thecommunities where we have our
offices, both in the UK and herein the US.
Matt Brown (11:21):
Nearly 40% of female travelers voiced interest in
setting out solo in 2025.
And there are percentage spikesacross the spectrum of women
who want to travel by themselvesor in groups, and the numbers
are dramatically higher thanthey were even five years ago or
10 years ago.
What do you think is drivingthat?
Heather Heverling (11:49):
is driving that.
Yeah, you know it's funny.
I am asked about this often andwhat's funny to me is that this
isn't really a new phenomenonand, when you look historically,
over 80% of travel decisionsare now and have always been
made by women.
I think what's gaining tractionnow, and why we're seeing a lot
more about this in the press,is that before, I think women
were behind the scenes makingtravel decisions about what
(12:12):
destination to see next or howlong they would go.
But we typically tend to travelwith a partner, and now women
are really feeling empowered totravel alone, without their
partner or when they're single.
I can say personally, I'vealways been a single traveler.
I prefer it because I reallythink that traveling solo gives
(12:37):
you the opportunity toexperience really authentically
the local culture, becauseyou're able to do more things.
When it's just one of you,versus even a small group,
you're able to, I think, makemore meaningful and lasting
connections with the people inthe destination where you travel
.
I always say that I learn moreabout myself when I travel alone
(13:02):
than anywhere else in the world, even here at home, because I
think when you travel alone, youget outside of your comfort
zone.
You maybe try foods that youwouldn't have tried otherwise,
or you take one step furtherthan maybe you would have.
I bungee jumped off theVictoria Falls Bridge in
(13:24):
Zimbabwe.
I'm not a daredevil, but I justthought OK, I'm here, this is
an incredible opportunity, I'mgoing to go for it.
Matt Brown (13:34):
Heather, when you first started in the industry,
did you observe a gender bias intravel, either on the marketing
side or compensation, or to theUX of the trip itself, and, if
so, have those biases changedover the last couple of decades?
Heather Heverling (13:52):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
So, despite the fact that, as Imentioned, you know, 80% of
travel decisions or more havealways been made by women, when
you look at companies where I'veworked anyway, it's been pretty
consistent in terms of gendersplit that there would be more
female employees.
However, there's always beenoverall low representation of
(14:18):
women in leadership positions.
So senior management or on theboard, I'd say you know
decision-making positions, havetypically been filled with men.
Looking at compensation, youknow it kind of carries through
to that.
So even if a woman was in acommensurate role with a male
(14:41):
counterpart, typically theywould make less.
And I think to your point aroundUX and trip design and all of
that absolutely marketing voicewas never really geared towards
women in the past.
And so I think for me, kind ofcoming up in the travel industry
, you know I always looked forfemale mentorship to try to grow
(15:05):
.
You know I am very ambitious, Ialways want to learn, I think
you can always be better and I'ma sponge and I want to always
do more and learn more and Ireally struggled to find some
strong female leaders to helpsort of guide me through my
career path.
And looking at where we aretoday, you know, we've
(15:27):
definitely made progress and I'mreally proud, I think, to be
part of some of that progress.
But there's still, you know, asalways, there's still more work
to be done.
Fewer than 20% of managementroles and fewer than 10% of
board seats are held by women inthe travel industry even today.
So we've made huge inroadsthere, but there's obviously a
(15:50):
lot more opportunity ahead.
Pay parity has definitelyimproved significantly over the
course of my career, and thereare.
You know, I'm on the board forAudley.
I am acting as the presidentand managing director for the US
business, so I'm really proudto be sitting in a pretty high
(16:12):
leadership role within theindustry.
I think another thing that'sreally important to me that
Audley supports really wellthrough some of the initiatives
we do is it's not just in thecompanies here in the US that
are selling trips to get peopleinto the destination.
I think equally important istrying to raise up and empower
(16:35):
the women in those localdestinations where we travel.
That's to me, a huge area ofopportunity going forward, and
females really haven't had thosechances to be a business owner
or to make money through tourismin the past, and so the more
(16:56):
that we can encourage womenguides, which 20 years ago there
was no such thing as womenguides.
Really, in a lot of countriesaround the world there are more
and more female guides thatwe're seeing, even in countries
where historically like Moroccois a great example Traditionally
there weren't women guidesthere at all, and now there are
(17:17):
more and more.
So trying to provideopportunities for Audley to work
with some women in countries sothat they can make money doing
what they love in this industryis really, really important.
Jeff Borman (17:31):
It travels an incredible vehicle to distribute
money from the wealthiest tothe most needy countries, to
directly to the most needypeople, in many cases helping
create direct, meaningfulexperiences that promote
humanity and kindness and thepreservation of culture.
I could go on all day.
I can hardly think of a morenoble profession than
(17:53):
facilitating travel andhospitality.
What is the best kept secretabout travel advisors?
Heather Heverling (18:00):
Maybe people don't know about it as much as
they should, but the reality isfor us at Audley and our country
specialists I mentioned earlierbut they've actually they
haven't just visited thecountries that they sell,
they've lived there, they'veworked there, they have been a
part of that local fabric andthat culture and so they know so
(18:25):
many insider tips and justnuances about how things work
and operate in the countriesthat they sell.
They absolutely love sharing allof that wisdom and knowledge
and experience with our clients.
They really want to make theexperiences as personal and
(18:50):
unique as possible.
Every day that our countryspecialists are doing a video
call or on the phone with apotential client and learning
about what they like in terms oftravel experiences and style,
they're kind of reliving againtheir own experiences as country
specialists when they lived inthese countries and it's a way
(19:13):
that you know, no two trips arethe same in terms of what we put
together for our clients and sothey love it.
It's not boring, it's not abusiness transaction for us at
all.
It's really a love of traveland just a pride in sharing
knowledge with our clients.
Jeff Borman (19:34):
What's the thing they would cut out?
He pulled all of your planners.
One thing they would say I wishthat wasn't part or much easier
part of my job um flights ofcourse I mean, it's the thing
that no one likes, right?
Heather Heverling (19:51):
I mean, I think the worst, I think
everyone can agree that theworst part of any travel
experience is typically whenyou're on the plane getting to
and from that country.
I think just the number ofcarriers that are out there, you
know points, miles, there'sjust a lot, and I think it's
(20:12):
always the least favorite partof anyone's travel experience.
So if we didn't have to dealwith that, I think our country
specialists would be thrilledbecause they could just talk
about Italy or Japan until thecows come home, because that's
what they love, or Japan tillthe cows come home, because
that's what they love.
Jeff Borman (20:30):
Audley caters to a pretty well-off demographic and
that same demographic tends toalso have you mentioned points,
a whole lot of points, that theyuse for travel.
That's probably not veryconvenient for your teams, right
?
In order to book and use all myBonvoy points well, I wouldn't
call Audley to do it.
In order to redeem my AmericanAirlines points?
(20:52):
I don't call Audley to do that.
Is the growth of loyaltyprograms kind of a hidden threat
to the business?
Heather Heverling (21:01):
Well.
So in terms of airline pointsand miles, we do actually work
with our clients so that theycan use them when they're
booking flights through Audley.
So we have learned.
You know, just like AI andother advancements in technology
and in the industry, you haveto adapt and change and you need
(21:23):
, you know, you need to embracechange and look at it as an
opportunity.
And so for us, we know thatthose loyalty programs are.
I personally am a huge loyaltyprogram person.
You said Marriott Bonvoy.
The minute I'm going anywhere,I'm Googling is there a Marriott
here, a courtyard, whatever itis?
(21:44):
I'm there, I want to get mynights and get my credit.
We know that that's importantto our travelers.
So we have modified, I wouldsay, where our business model
was when we first started in theUS 10 years ago to today, to
make sure that we are again.
Just the client comes first.
So everything we do, it's basedon what works best for the
(22:06):
client.
So you want to use airlinemiles?
We can make it happen.
Matt Brown (22:12):
It's time for the lightning round Heather,
favorite national park from anycountry, including the US.
Heather Heverling (22:21):
All right, I'm going to say probably one
that most people wouldn't.
I'm going to say the LakeDistrict in the United Kingdom.
It's the biggest national parkin the UK and it's really just
the.
It's just where people live.
It's not some like walled offpiece of land.
People live there and I've hadthe pleasure of hiking through
(22:44):
there, meeting lots of people,and it was absolutely
breathtaking and a good workout.
Matt Brown (22:49):
It also sounds like the perfect place if Top Gear is
any guide to go caravanning.
It's a big caravanning areawhere people can go up and take
their trailers and just camp outfor a summer.
Heather Heverling (23:01):
Yes, and people do that along the way.
Some people hike coast to coast, others will hike a bit and
then, yeah, they'll have acaravan and they'll camp out for
a night and then have someonemeet them miles and miles down
the road at the end of theirnext hiking segment.
Jeff Borman (23:19):
What's the strangest thing you've ever
eaten?
Heather Heverling (23:23):
Oh well, you know, they say it's always
better when it's fried.
So I've had a fried cockroachin Zimbabwe, I've had fried
crickets in Thailand and somehowit doesn't taste like chicken.
Matt Brown (23:38):
But putting that stuff in the fryer makes it
edible country in 2025 to visiton a budget you just mentioned.
I think you were just quoted inthe New York Times about Laos,
so it can't be Laos.
Heather Heverling (23:54):
It has to be something else.
Matt Brown (23:55):
We want fresh material.
Heather Heverling (23:56):
Well, this is cheating, but it's accurate and
true.
So Laos, neighbors, thailand,vietnam, cambodia, anything
really in Southeast Asia, yourdollar goes so far and the value
for money is off the charts.
Jeff Borman (24:13):
Recommended travel related book.
Heather Heverling (24:17):
Oh, this one's easy because I just
finished it this weekend.
I'm a voracious reader andactually ties in with some of
the things we were talking aboutearlier.
It's called 12 Trips in 12Months by Jen Ruiz, and it's all
(24:38):
about traveling as a solo womanand there were so many things
that she mentioned in the bookthat really resonated with me
around some of my travelexperiences and how you know the
serendipity that happens whenyou travel and you just find
yourself and especially when youtravel alone, you find yourself
in these situations that wereunplanned and weren't
necessarily part of youritinerary, but where you meet a
(25:01):
local person or you do, you know, you cook a meal with them, or
you make an art or craft withthem and you and it just brings
the whole destination to life.
So it really just resonatedwith me on so many levels.
Go buy it, read it.
It's a good one.
Matt Brown (25:21):
A trip that totally subverted your expectations for
for good or for ill A thing, atrip that you were planning on,
and it's like I know what I'mgetting into.
And then you arrived in countryand it's like, wow, this is not
what I expected and I can'twait to see what's going to
happen next.
Heather Heverling (25:41):
I would say Myanmar.
So I traveled to Myanmar over adecade ago, when it was really
just opening up for tourism and,you know, you couldn't use your
cell phone, couldn't use creditcards, you couldn't.
There was no money exchange.
You had to go to a black market, like hole in the wall, and you
(26:05):
had to bring like a certainkind of $20 bill and and so,
going in, I, it just all seemedvery rigid and, um, just that,
the infrastructure wasn't thereand it was just going to be like
a very bare bones kind ofexperience.
And I again, the thing that Ibrought home from that trip,
(26:28):
that just it, it was not at allbare bones but absolutely filled
my heart and my spirit.
The local people there wereabsolutely incredible and they
couldn't speak English at all.
Um, and they know, this one manat night took me in into his
(26:51):
home where he lived, which wasin the middle of this jungle.
They had a car battery that washooked up to a TV and they were
watching reruns of the JohnnyCarson show in the middle of
nowhere and they just keptfeeding me bananas because
that's all they had and that wastheir.
You know the way of showingtheir hospitality, the warmth
(27:16):
and the compassion and just thespirit of these people was just
overwhelming.
And I went to a school.
Sorry, I'm rambling a little bitbecause now I'm remembering all
the things about the trip, butI went to a school and I tried
to teach them math, you knowagain not speaking each other's
language and the whole time thatthe kids were staring at me and
(27:38):
they finally, as I was leaving,the kids circled around me and
they wanted to touch my hairbecause they had never seen a
person with blonde hair before.
And I have this photo of mestanding in the middle of all
these kids touching my hairbecause they just they, they had
no idea, they thought I waslike a spirit from another
(28:00):
planet or something, and it justto see the wonderment in their
eyes and to be able to have beenpart of that experience.
For them.
It changed my life forever.
I mean, those are the thingsthat stay in my heart forever.
And, yeah, like you said, Icould keep going.
I have so many memories fromthat one trip and there's been
(28:21):
so many trips and I hope thatthere are many, many more to
come in the future.
I always feel full in terms ofmind, body and spirit when I
come home from traveling becauseit's always memorable and
usually in some way it changeswho I am as a person and just
(28:44):
gives me a whole new outlook andperspective.
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