July 8, 2025 • 27 mins
There are dream jobs, and then there are jobs like Ben Hill's. Ben's Baseball Traveler newsletter is part culinary adventure, part architecture column on stadiums new and old, part biography series on characters of the game, part observer of the wild and wacky situations that occur nightly in cities coast to coast, part troubadour of the joys and heartbreaks inherent in Minor League Baseball.
But where does he go, what does he see, what stories does he tell, where does he stay, how did he get into this business, and what are his favorite minor league team names? Oh, and why are travel and minor league baseball such a beautiful match?
To see more adventures from America follow Ben on Instagram.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hi everybody.
It's no Show with Matt Brownand Jeff Borman.
There are dream jobs and thenthere are jobs like the one
Benjamin Hill has, which are ona whole nother level.
Ben travels the nation forMajor League Baseball collecting
stories about what makes minorleague baseball unique.
His baseball travelernewsletter is part culinary
(00:31):
adventure, part architecturecolumn on stadiums, new and old,
part biography series oncharacters of the game, part
observer of the wild and wackysituations that occur nightly in
cities coast to coast wackysituations that occur nightly in
cities, coast to coast.
And part troubadour of the joysand heartbreaks inherent in
sport.
On a nightly basis, he observesexotic species like Danville
(00:53):
Autobots, lehigh Valley IronPigs, pensacola Blue Wahoos,
burlington Sock Puppets and, ofcourse, the Rocket City Trash
Pandas, among many others.
His life should be a TV show,maybe one where he travels from
town to town helping people,perhaps solving baseball-related
crimes and, of course, showingus the real America that we're
(01:14):
all part of.
Ben Hill, welcome to no Show.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Hey, thanks for having me and thanks for one of
the best introductions I've evergotten on a podcast.
That was impressive.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Our entire purpose.
Matt and I actually have thiswritten into our operating
agreement.
The entire reason for theexistence of this podcast is to
make just enough money for thetwo of us to go do the entire
Nippon League together.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
That's true.
Still a goal, still a goal.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
We're really, really far from it.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
One step at a goal.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
We're really really far from it, one step at a time.
Last year I completed apersonal milestone and saw every
major league park.
I've been at that my entirelife and this year finished up.
The Cactus League got three togo in the Grapefruit, five left
in Nippon.
So when I saw a guy who's beento 200 parks around the US, it
was impossible not to get you onhere.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Ben, how did you get into this business?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
This can always when I get asked this, it can turn
into a long story.
I'll try to make it fairlybrief.
But in 2005, I was, you know,several years out of college,
had done some job in theeducation field teaching
assistant decided I didn't wantto do that was temping, just
saying yes to anything that wasoffered me.
And a friend of mine just gaveme a call one day and was like
(02:31):
hey, I got a job writing gamerecaps for a new minor league
baseball website.
We need more people to writegame recaps.
Seems like something you coulddo.
And I said, yeah, sure, notthinking like, oh, this is my
big break.
Really thinking of it as, likethis works out, it's something
I'll do for a couple monthsbefore the next thing comes
around.
But this turned out to be, youknow, minorleaguebaseballcom,
now MILBcom, you know, theofficial website of minor league
(02:54):
baseball.
Such a thing had never existedbefore an attempt to have you
know the entirety of minorleague baseball, affiliated
minor league baseball, you know,all in one place on the
internet.
So it was the minor leaguebaseball website.
And then at the time they werein the process of trying to
bring um you know, all 160 minorleague teams to get their own
(03:15):
website, you know, under thesame company umbrella, and uh
yeah, so it was a big project.
I didn't really know what I wasgetting into.
I just wrote game recaps,season ended, came, came in the
next year or came in theoffseason during the days,
because there was literallynothing lot of other stuff going
on.
And I immediately loved thatbecause instead of just like a
sports recap article, I couldmake jokes and cultural
(03:52):
references and still have itunder the larger umbrella of
sports writing.
And then I started hearing fromteams because there had been no
one up to that point who evercovered the industry and what
teams were doing in real time.
And I hadn't really realizedthis as I started a column you
know, just like writing jokesand you know, trying to
highlight weird giveaways andtheme nights and you know
(04:15):
D-level celebrity appearancesand that kind of thing but I was
like cool, this has a littlebit of an audience and it's what
I like to do better than gamerecap stuff.
So I started a blog and reallytried to establish that as my
niche, just writing prettyobsessively day in and day out
about just what teams were doing, and got full-time in 2009,.
And then I kind of made thepitch that all right if this has
(04:35):
finally turned into a full-timejob.
I need to visit some of theseballparks, more than just the
handful I've been to around theNortheast, because I grew up in
Pennsylvania, in thePhiladelphia area, and was then
living in New York, or stillliving in New York City, and so
the road trip started in 2010.
And here we are in the year2025.
It took me many, many, manyyears to be like I guess this is
(04:58):
my job.
I guess this is my career.
It just felt like this randomthing that happened for so long.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
You mentioned the cultural connection and in
smaller, more isolated citiesand towns, minor league baseball
is a piece woven into thefabric of the community, often
the only show in town.
The Yankees are a part of NewYork City.
But New York City certainlyexists without the Yankees Right
.
It's not a reflection of theother.
City certainly exists withoutthe Yankees right.
(05:26):
It's not a reflection of theother.
In what way do you find in allthese towns the sense of
dedication and belonging and thecommunity that goes with minor
league baseball, that isdifferent than major league
baseball that we all watch on TV?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, I mean it is often a real community-oriented
gathering place.
A cliche, a little biteye-rolling, but that I've heard
throughout the industry overthe years is you know, it's the
front porch of the community.
And of course this can bedifferent from market to market
because you still have minorleague teams in Las Vegas or
Nashville and places like thatwhere you know it's a little
(05:59):
different from you know, minorleague teams in these smaller
towns.
So you know it really varies ona case-by-case basis, but there
are a lot of places where minorleague baseball sort of puts a
community on the map in terms ofits larger recognition, just
around the country.
Really, like you have anaffiliated minor league baseball
team and in a lot ofcommunities it's perhaps the
(06:21):
best thing to do entertainmentoption.
But regardless of what marketthe team is playing in, the
underlying principle is the same.
It's just a place to come andhave fun, where I don't want to
quite say that baseball issecondary.
But the whole minor leaguebusiness model is not predicated
on being a huge baseball fan.
Of course you're going to getbaseball fans and people who
(06:41):
love to follow up and comingprospects or who are just really
dedicated to following theirteam day in and day out.
But that's a minority.
The majority of the minor leaguefan is just someone who wants
to be outside with friends andfamily.
You know, it's an entertainmentbusiness more than sports, and
it's about creating anatmosphere that says all things
to all people to the to theextent that they can.
(07:02):
It's more just like wanderaround, you know, say hello to
the mascot, get some food, watchsome between-inning contests,
et cetera, et cetera.
It's just like a fun place tospend several hours and when a
team has run the right way whichI think most of them are it's a
place that appeals to allpeople and, yeah, in smaller
(07:22):
towns like that's the thing todo you know, on a summer night
or a spring night.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
It's baseball's ace card.
I've always felt, and there areways, you know, purists be
damned here, but there are waysin which I feel like Major
League Baseball could embracethat more.
You know, baseball has alwaysexisted, even back to its
beginnings in the country, as anexcuse to get out of work, go
outside and drink beer, and Ifeel like if we kind of get back
(07:50):
to that a little bit more onsome level, I mean, I think
that's why we're so drawn tothings like spring training, so
drawn to to the small stadiumexperience, because it provides
exactly that just kind of alo-fi, low key way to hang out.
I just love it.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I have friends who travel around seeing the
Savannah bananas that's nuts, Imean they travel around seeing
the Savannah Bananas.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
That's nuts.
I mean they're an entity in andof themselves.
At this point, you know, likeminor league baseball but not
like it.
You know the analogy is HarlemGlobetrotters with them and I
think that's pretty accurate.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
You know they've gotten a lot of press over the
last year particularly.
Do you hear rumblings fromother teams about them?
Do you see other teams tryingto emulate them?
Do people complain about them?
What do you hear out thereabout that model?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
You know when they come through and they often do
stops at minor league ballparksand I think you know the teams
who host them on those.
You know barnstorming stops areat this point maybe not even
surprised because it's going on,but going on.
But the fact that they sell outimmediately is a real
eye-opener.
That bam, you put those ticketson sale and a AAA stadium with
11,000 capacity is blink and youmiss it.
(08:58):
They sell out.
I think there might be a littlejealousy just because minor
league baseball is about playerdevelopment.
So the players are employees ofthe Major League parent club
and those Major League clubsobviously have very strict
regimens and systems for howthey develop their players.
So what happens in a SavannahBananas game just has no
(09:19):
translation to a minor leaguegame based on player development
.
So I'm sure minor league frontoffice members, team operators,
would love to inject a littlemore of that in-game craziness,
but you can't do that when yourplayers are property of the
major league club and theirprimary reason for being in the
minor leagues is to develop asplayers.
(09:42):
Savannah Bananas are very goodplayers and there's players who
come from minor league baseballand there's also guys who get
drafted or go into minor leaguebaseball.
I mean, they're a legit talent.
Yeah, jesse Cole who runs theSavannah Bananas, I remember he
used to come to industry eventsyears ago the minor league
baseball promotional seminar.
He was running a team, I think,in Gastonia, north Carolina at
(10:03):
the time and he seemed just likea sponge for information and
for what teams are doing and youknow he was familiar with my
stuff and just the world atlarge.
And so as the years went on andhe developed that you know I
haven't talked to him in yearsbut I'm like man he really
gathered a lot of knowledge andthen applied it and created
something totally new and unique.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
I was reading from UN tourism that sports travel is
10% of tourism expendituresglobally.
The sector is 17% growth from23 to 2030.
That's an expectation and itmakes sense when you consider
the breadth of the genre,everything from the Super Bowl
to youth sports tournaments.
But are minor leagues?
(10:48):
Are they a generator ofsignificant revenue and volume
and travel business for hotelsand buses and airlines?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, I mean, I would say so.
I mean not necessarily massive,but it definitely has an impact
.
In any city that has a minorleague team, you're going to
have players coming in andspending from the visiting team.
Spending nights at hotels areusually a designated hotel all
year long, and you know.
(11:15):
So that is pretty significantin the smaller markets and
there's definitely, you know, Iknow a lot of them.
I don't know what they make upin terms of the overall
percentage of fans, but there'sa lot of baseball travelers out
there and people who you knowwant to see as much of the minor
league landscape as they can.
So I'm sure there is, you know,tourism based on that as well,
and you know hotel bookings andeverything that comes along with
(11:37):
travel from the fans end aswell.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Yeah, the MLB players association.
The collective bargainingagreement, I think, covers
triple a, but maybe not beneaththat level in the in the
provisions for what a club mustprovide for travel.
Like you know, trips exceeding350 miles must be taken by air
and family-friendlyaccommodations and stipends and
per diems and stuff like that.
(12:01):
Do minor league team playerstravel well?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
better than they used to.
I mean major league up through2020, you know, minor league
baseball was a separate entitywith a working agreement with
Major League Baseball and in2021, major League Baseball took
over the minor leagues and youknow they initiated, you know,
six game homestands.
So there's less travel nowbecause once you go on a road
trip, you settle in for aTuesday through Sunday series
(12:29):
wherever you're playing.
And, yeah, they increased theplayers per diems and also, I
think, codified team hotels andstipulations for housing in
general that previously didn'texist.
You know you talk to playersfrom 30, 40 years ago and, of
course, they're kind of romanticabout it, but sleeping on air
(12:50):
mattresses and these crowdedrented condos or staying at, you
know, real divey hotels on theroad, that aspect, which is you
can see why it's a little bitromanticized in retrospect is is
largely a thing of the past now, how do you get around the
country?
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Do you, do you drive everywhere, or are you or do you
fly?
And when you actually arrive inplaces, where do you stay?
Do you stay at the hotels withthe teams, or are you managing
all of your travel for this,because it sounds like you were
just on the road for threemonths straight.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I know I think I create the impression not really
purposefully that I'm on theroad more than I really am.
I'm then booking and contactingteams about the next trip and
it gets like all sort of crazy.
Like right now, I was inSomerset, New Jersey, last night
for a theme night dedicated tothe podcast on part of the show.
Before the show, my newslettercame out today with the recap of
(14:03):
my night with the Iowa Cubs inDes Moines and I'm in the
process of reaching out to teamsin South Carolina, Tennessee
and Georgia about my next tripin like less than two weeks.
So there's just this constantlike bouncing around.
But yeah, it's usually about aweek a month.
It's just that I get so muchmaterial and it comes out in
different platforms in differentways that they're just always
(14:25):
for like five, six, seven monthsstraight.
It's just material for me beingon the road, but it doesn't
mean I'm always actually on theroad.
Like right now, I'm in a littlephone room at the MLB offices,
which is usually where I can befound, you know, more often than
not.
And the trips themselvesusually I fly and then rent a
car in the first city I'mvisiting and then return the car
(14:46):
at the last city I visit.
So pretty basic operation.
I didn't even have a carbetween 2002 and 2022 living in
New York City.
So I was grateful for theseroad trips because they kept me
driving a decent amount everysingle summer, Because otherwise
getting a car in New York Cityafter 20 years of not driving
(15:08):
would have been a pretty toughre-entry behind the wheels.
But yeah, now I got the 2008Subaru Outback.
So if something is within areasonable distance from New
York City I'll just drive.
And the hotels when I firststarted and this was all a
little more tenuous I waswatching the budget.
As much as I could I wouldcontact the teams and say what's
the team hotel?
Because usually they would tellme the team hotel and say we'll
(15:31):
get you the team rate.
So that was important as I wastrying to minimize budget.
Now I'm not living likeopulently, but now I'm just
booking.
You know we have to use thein-house Concur travel system,
so now I go through that and youknow and I'm, yeah, it's still
reasonable.
It's usually I'm staying atchains and we have a uh
(15:54):
sponsorship with windham hotels,so try to prioritize those
properties when we can.
But um, yeah, it's pretty muchwhat you'd call middle of the
road.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
A big part of your writing covers the food options
at minor league stadiums, andyou've also talked about having
celiac disease, and so at everyballpark you recruit a
designated eater to consume thestadium cuisine that you cannot.
What's the best stadium foodand beverage for you and your
(16:27):
designated eater?
And give us a couple, like ifwe were going on a culinary tour
and wanted to find somethingeither that was pretty good or
something pretty weird.
What?
What have you discovered outthere recently that that we
should check out?
Speaker 2 (16:41):
yeah, there's so much out there.
Uh, I often suffer from a bit ofa recency bias, and you know
answering these questionsbecause there's so many places
and it all blurs together.
So, speaking of recency biasagain, I was at the Somerset
Patriots in Central Jersey justlast night and they had a
phenomenal array of stuff.
(17:03):
They have an alternate identityas the Jersey Diners, so they
have the Jersey Diner burgerstopped on a waffle bun and
topped with pork roll and syrup,so that was pretty unique.
And also a Patriot chickensandwich that was red, white and
blue.
I think the red was red peppers, the white was mozzarella
(17:23):
cheese and the blue was coleslawwith a food dye in it.
But those are two greatexamples just from yesterday.
Two teams in the Southwest thatI think are both great, roughly
the Southwest, but El PasoChihuahuas are located right on
the Mexican border, so you knowa lot of their fans and game day
employees you know actuallylive in Mexico.
(17:45):
So you know the most authentic,you most authentic kind of
Mexican inspired cuisine you canget in El Paso with the
Chihuahuas.
They have some really goodstuff.
Albuquerque isotopes the landof the green chili, is like
their condiment stations, justhave green chilies, like you can
put it on everything, and theyhave an alternate identity as
the green chili cheeseburgersand do a lot of other creative
(18:06):
stuff.
Rocket City Trash Pandas havemade a point of you know
rotating in and out a lot oflike creative specials.
I think when I was there theyhad s'more fries.
It was like sweet potato friestopped with you know s'more
toppings, chocolate andmarshmallow and graham crackers.
You know a lot of teams do kindof opponent dogs or you know
hot dogs based on the regionalcuisine of whoever they're
(18:28):
playing.
So you see a lot of interestinghot dogs go in and out.
Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs are ateam that has always been great
I mean bacon-centric being theIron Pigs but they're one of
those teams that has like aseparate standalone website,
pigs Food Finder.
Because they have so manyoptions.
They direct you to a standalonewebsite just listing everything
(18:48):
and, where it is around theballpark, some really creative
stuff in there as well.
Yeah, so there's so much outthere.
Obviously, newer stadiums oftendo it better because the older
parks usually weren't built withas much kitchen space and the
ability to really get morecreative.
But any team with a newballpark like I'll be visiting
the hub city Spartan burgerslater this month.
(19:09):
And yeah, they're named theSpartan burgers, so they made it
a big thing, like we got tohave the best burgers, and
apparently they have like ahundred 100 toppings available
at their burger bar, so we'llsee how that goes.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
It's time for the lightning round.
I'll start us off here.
Of course, modern leaguebaseball is the last glorious
refuge of deliriously goofygiveaways to entice fans.
I think you've written recentlyabout the Shelbowski bobblehead
and a themed Bob Ross night,and it sounds like almost every
(19:43):
night during the season there'ssomething like this happening
somewhere in the country.
What are some of your all-timefavorite promo night themes?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, the Bob Ross and Big Shelbowski were both
Daytona Tortugas.
Love that ballpark in DaytonaBeach.
It's actually the oldestballpark in all of minor league
baseball.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
And the Cincinnati Reds affiliate.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, yeah, it's a great one.
I always tell people to visitDaytona when they ask for a
handful of parks worth visiting.
Yeah, they've done somecreative giveaways.
I feel like maybe giveawaysaren't as wacky as they were a
little bit earlier.
I feel like teams have settledin on bobbleheads and a little
bit more by-the-number stuff inrecent years, for whatever
(20:26):
reason.
But you still get, of course, avariety of bobbling appendages
beyond the head.
You know, bobble arms and legs,depending on who you're
celebrating.
Quote unquote real hair bobbleheads where the players I don't
know if it's what is real, butyou know the players have like
hair if they're known for theirlong hair or a mustache.
I think there was a Paul Skeen'sbobble stash last year by the
(20:49):
Altoona Curve the Altoona Curvethe first game I ever attended
professionally to go see a promo.
I bring it up all the timebecause it speaks to the spirit
I was really trying to seek out,but I went for their awful
night way back in 2007.
And the whole premise is justto be as quote unquote awful as
possible and I love those justridiculous concepts.
(21:10):
And they gave away sporks whenyou walked in, just like a
plastic spork.
That's one of my favoritegiveaways of all time, just
walking into a ballpark and forno reason whatsoever, being
handed a spork.
They had an awful night.
That was before my time.
Their general manager at thetime was a guy named Todd
parnell and he did hisgallbladder removed and he tried
(21:32):
to give away his gallbladderlike in a jar, but then I think
that got nixed for probablypretty obvious reasons.
But I think they gave away likephotocopies of his gallbladder,
of his gallbladder oh, wow,okay, that's a great match with
s'mores fries night, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Given that there is actually a business going on
here, do the guys from themajors, when the studs get sent
down for for rehab or someassignment?
Do they fit into all thiswackiness?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I'd say generally no, which is fine, but that leads
to I love that contrast of, andagain, recency bias.
I was at the Somerset Patriotsgame last night and Marcus
Stroman started the game.
Giancarlo Stanton was in thestarting lineup on his second
(22:24):
game of his rehab assignment andthere's actually a video from
last night of me and my podcastco-host, sam Dykstra and Tyler
Maughan singing the seventhinning stretch and Stanton is
just like six feet away from us,like swinging a bat in the
on-deck circle.
I didn't even realize he wasthere.
I was so locked in.
But there's always thatdisconnect of like, whether it's
just a regular player or arehabber of like.
(22:47):
For the most part those guyshave to be pretty like blinders
on.
So of course they notice things, especially when you're a
day-to-day player, butespecially a rehabber, you're
just kind of like I'm here, youknow you can be friendly, stop
and sign autographs.
They often do, but you're notreally being like wow, the
(23:10):
minors, I kind of miss it.
Everything I've seen with thatis just like you got a job.
Yeah, yeah, give me the hellback to the major leagues and
it's like no, knock specificallyon the minors.
But you know they're obviouslylooking at their time in minor
league baseball a lot differentthan uh, you know the fans who
are going for something totallydifferent, although when there
is a rehabber of that caliber, alot of the fans are coming out
to see it and it's always afinancial boost for teams, and
(23:30):
I'm sure you know tourism ingeneral when you can advertise
that.
The problem is you often don'thave too much leeway for
planning, so you often don'tdraw from too far away, but a
fan who might not be thinking ofgoing on a Wednesday night is
like well, wait a second, let'sgo, you know take a flyer on a
ten dollar ticket, though, andyou might end up seeing marcus
stroman and john carlos stantonyeah, yeah, I mean it's totally
(23:52):
feasible, it happens all thetime.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
I mean maybe not those two guys, but just in
general, of course with 200,approximately 200 parks to
choose from in the minor leagues, rattle off your top five.
You mentioned that the daytonatortugas affiliate of the
cincinnati reds.
Uh, who's your next four?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
this can change by the day, but yeah, I'll put
daytona jackie robinson ballparkso named because in 1946 jackie
robinson played his first gamesas a member of the dodgers
organization uh, at springtraining in that ballpark and
that's a.
Yeah, I forgot it was alightning round.
I could go on and on andtangents about everything, but
yeah, put Daytona up there.
I always put Redding up there.
(24:35):
Part of it's my bias as a kidwho grew up in the Philadelphia
area, just because they're aPhillies affiliate have been
since 1967, ballpark built in1950, great front office, a
great you know, just greatatmosphere at the ballpark, a
mix of old and new.
So I put that up there a lot.
I also talked about it already,but I put El Paso up there.
(24:56):
I mean I love its location,where you're literally looking
into another country from beyondthe ballpark, and really
creative architecture throughoutIn right field.
They have this like four levelstructure topped by the rooftop
deck where you can see the gamewith an awesome view, and they
have different bars andrestaurants all the way through
this structure, Because it's asmall footprint for a AAA
(25:18):
stadium.
So they got really creative.
They actually literally blew upCity Hall in order to build
that ballpark.
The Chihuahuas, yeah.
So the Chihuahuas, yeah, theyhad some might in that case.
So you guys mentioned Asheville.
I throw that up there all thetime.
I'm uh, I do like new ballparksbut I ultimately am my fan's
(25:40):
heart.
You know, trend towards theclassics and McCormick field is
a hundred years old, now 101years old.
You know, I believe it's theonly minor league baseball
stadium that can say Babe Ruthplayed here.
You know, I believe it's theonly minor league baseball
stadium that can say Babe Ruthplayed here.
You know, there's just so manypeople who came through that
ballpark through the years,whether as minor leaguers or as
barnstormers.
You know it's in this hillyarea, it's just kind of nestled
(26:01):
right in there.
It's just got such a uniquethrowback feel.
And I got one more Today.
I say Toledo.
I think Toledo is great.
You know a lot of ballparks arethe centerpiece of a downtown
revitalization project and youknow that can go in myriad ways.
(26:24):
But if you want an example tome of like how successful that
can be, like, the areasurrounding the ballpark is
called Hensville.
The team owns a lot of theother buildings around it and so
it's like taking an oldindustrial area with a lot of
abandoned buildings and it'sjust.
The whole neighborhood isbaseball and there's such a
vibrant atmosphere and, again,creative architecture and the
way the ballpark is incorporatedin the landscape around it and
a team that has been around, youknow, for a very long time and
(26:47):
incarnate incarnations.
So let's go with Toledo.
But yeah, I can change thisanswer by the day.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I think that's one of the beautiful things about your
job.
Ben, thank you so much forbeing part of no show and uh,
it's been a blast.
We love talking to you and hopeto see you soon.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, thanks guys for having me and good talking to
you, and I rambled on, as Ialways do.
Once you get started, there'sjust too much to talk about.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
We'll hope to see you at a fight and Phil's game soon
.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, come out to Reading, beautiful place.
Hi everybody.
It's no Show with Matt Brownand Jeff Borman.
There are dream jobs and thenthere are jobs like the one
Benjamin Hill has, which are ona whole nother level.
Ben travels the nation forMajor League Baseball collecting
stories about what makes minorleague baseball unique.
His baseball travelernewsletter is part culinary
(00:31):
adventure, part architecturecolumn on stadiums, new and old,
part biography series oncharacters of the game, part
observer of the wild and wackysituations that occur nightly in
cities coast to coast wackysituations that occur nightly in
cities, coast to coast.
And part troubadour of the joysand heartbreaks inherent in
sport.
On a nightly basis, he observesexotic species like Danville
(00:53):
Autobots, lehigh Valley IronPigs, pensacola Blue Wahoos,
burlington Sock Puppets and, ofcourse, the Rocket City Trash
Pandas, among many others.
His life should be a TV show,maybe one where he travels from
town to town helping people,perhaps solving baseball-related
crimes and, of course, showingus the real America that we're
(01:14):
all part of.
Ben Hill, welcome to no Show.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Hey, thanks for having me and thanks for one of
the best introductions I've evergotten on a podcast.
That was impressive.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Our entire purpose.
Matt and I actually have thiswritten into our operating
agreement.
The entire reason for theexistence of this podcast is to
make just enough money for thetwo of us to go do the entire
Nippon League together.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
That's true.
Still a goal, still a goal.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
We're really, really far from it.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
One step at a goal.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
We're really really far from it, one step at a time.
Last year I completed apersonal milestone and saw every
major league park.
I've been at that my entirelife and this year finished up.
The Cactus League got three togo in the Grapefruit, five left
in Nippon.
So when I saw a guy who's beento 200 parks around the US, it
was impossible not to get you onhere.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Ben, how did you get into this business?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
This can always when I get asked this, it can turn
into a long story.
I'll try to make it fairlybrief.
But in 2005, I was, you know,several years out of college,
had done some job in theeducation field teaching
assistant decided I didn't wantto do that was temping, just
saying yes to anything that wasoffered me.
And a friend of mine just gaveme a call one day and was like
(02:31):
hey, I got a job writing gamerecaps for a new minor league
baseball website.
We need more people to writegame recaps.
Seems like something you coulddo.
And I said, yeah, sure, notthinking like, oh, this is my
big break.
Really thinking of it as, likethis works out, it's something
I'll do for a couple monthsbefore the next thing comes
around.
But this turned out to be, youknow, minorleaguebaseballcom,
now MILBcom, you know, theofficial website of minor league
(02:54):
baseball.
Such a thing had never existedbefore an attempt to have you
know the entirety of minorleague baseball, affiliated
minor league baseball, you know,all in one place on the
internet.
So it was the minor leaguebaseball website.
And then at the time they werein the process of trying to
bring um you know, all 160 minorleague teams to get their own
(03:15):
website, you know, under thesame company umbrella, and uh
yeah, so it was a big project.
I didn't really know what I wasgetting into.
I just wrote game recaps,season ended, came, came in the
next year or came in theoffseason during the days,
because there was literallynothing lot of other stuff going
on.
And I immediately loved thatbecause instead of just like a
sports recap article, I couldmake jokes and cultural
(03:52):
references and still have itunder the larger umbrella of
sports writing.
And then I started hearing fromteams because there had been no
one up to that point who evercovered the industry and what
teams were doing in real time.
And I hadn't really realizedthis as I started a column you
know, just like writing jokesand you know, trying to
highlight weird giveaways andtheme nights and you know
(04:15):
D-level celebrity appearancesand that kind of thing but I was
like cool, this has a littlebit of an audience and it's what
I like to do better than gamerecap stuff.
So I started a blog and reallytried to establish that as my
niche, just writing prettyobsessively day in and day out
about just what teams were doing, and got full-time in 2009,.
And then I kind of made thepitch that all right if this has
(04:35):
finally turned into a full-timejob.
I need to visit some of theseballparks, more than just the
handful I've been to around theNortheast, because I grew up in
Pennsylvania, in thePhiladelphia area, and was then
living in New York, or stillliving in New York City, and so
the road trip started in 2010.
And here we are in the year2025.
It took me many, many, manyyears to be like I guess this is
(04:58):
my job.
I guess this is my career.
It just felt like this randomthing that happened for so long.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
You mentioned the cultural connection and in
smaller, more isolated citiesand towns, minor league baseball
is a piece woven into thefabric of the community, often
the only show in town.
The Yankees are a part of NewYork City.
But New York City certainlyexists without the Yankees Right
.
It's not a reflection of theother.
City certainly exists withoutthe Yankees right.
(05:26):
It's not a reflection of theother.
In what way do you find in allthese towns the sense of
dedication and belonging and thecommunity that goes with minor
league baseball, that isdifferent than major league
baseball that we all watch on TV?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, I mean it is often a real community-oriented
gathering place.
A cliche, a little biteye-rolling, but that I've heard
throughout the industry overthe years is you know, it's the
front porch of the community.
And of course this can bedifferent from market to market
because you still have minorleague teams in Las Vegas or
Nashville and places like thatwhere you know it's a little
(05:59):
different from you know, minorleague teams in these smaller
towns.
So you know it really varies ona case-by-case basis, but there
are a lot of places where minorleague baseball sort of puts a
community on the map in terms ofits larger recognition, just
around the country.
Really, like you have anaffiliated minor league baseball
team and in a lot ofcommunities it's perhaps the
(06:21):
best thing to do entertainmentoption.
But regardless of what marketthe team is playing in, the
underlying principle is the same.
It's just a place to come andhave fun, where I don't want to
quite say that baseball issecondary.
But the whole minor leaguebusiness model is not predicated
on being a huge baseball fan.
Of course you're going to getbaseball fans and people who
(06:41):
love to follow up and comingprospects or who are just really
dedicated to following theirteam day in and day out.
But that's a minority.
The majority of the minor leaguefan is just someone who wants
to be outside with friends andfamily.
You know, it's an entertainmentbusiness more than sports, and
it's about creating anatmosphere that says all things
to all people to the to theextent that they can.
(07:02):
It's more just like wanderaround, you know, say hello to
the mascot, get some food, watchsome between-inning contests,
et cetera, et cetera.
It's just like a fun place tospend several hours and when a
team has run the right way whichI think most of them are it's a
place that appeals to allpeople and, yeah, in smaller
(07:22):
towns like that's the thing todo you know, on a summer night
or a spring night.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
It's baseball's ace card.
I've always felt, and there areways, you know, purists be
damned here, but there are waysin which I feel like Major
League Baseball could embracethat more.
You know, baseball has alwaysexisted, even back to its
beginnings in the country, as anexcuse to get out of work, go
outside and drink beer, and Ifeel like if we kind of get back
(07:50):
to that a little bit more onsome level, I mean, I think
that's why we're so drawn tothings like spring training, so
drawn to to the small stadiumexperience, because it provides
exactly that just kind of alo-fi, low key way to hang out.
I just love it.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I have friends who travel around seeing the
Savannah bananas that's nuts, Imean they travel around seeing
the Savannah Bananas.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
That's nuts.
I mean they're an entity in andof themselves.
At this point, you know, likeminor league baseball but not
like it.
You know the analogy is HarlemGlobetrotters with them and I
think that's pretty accurate.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
You know they've gotten a lot of press over the
last year particularly.
Do you hear rumblings fromother teams about them?
Do you see other teams tryingto emulate them?
Do people complain about them?
What do you hear out thereabout that model?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
You know when they come through and they often do
stops at minor league ballparksand I think you know the teams
who host them on those.
You know barnstorming stops areat this point maybe not even
surprised because it's going on,but going on.
But the fact that they sell outimmediately is a real
eye-opener.
That bam, you put those ticketson sale and a AAA stadium with
11,000 capacity is blink and youmiss it.
(08:58):
They sell out.
I think there might be a littlejealousy just because minor
league baseball is about playerdevelopment.
So the players are employees ofthe Major League parent club
and those Major League clubsobviously have very strict
regimens and systems for howthey develop their players.
So what happens in a SavannahBananas game just has no
(09:19):
translation to a minor leaguegame based on player development
.
So I'm sure minor league frontoffice members, team operators,
would love to inject a littlemore of that in-game craziness,
but you can't do that when yourplayers are property of the
major league club and theirprimary reason for being in the
minor leagues is to develop asplayers.
(09:42):
Savannah Bananas are very goodplayers and there's players who
come from minor league baseballand there's also guys who get
drafted or go into minor leaguebaseball.
I mean, they're a legit talent.
Yeah, jesse Cole who runs theSavannah Bananas, I remember he
used to come to industry eventsyears ago the minor league
baseball promotional seminar.
He was running a team, I think,in Gastonia, north Carolina at
(10:03):
the time and he seemed just likea sponge for information and
for what teams are doing and youknow he was familiar with my
stuff and just the world atlarge.
And so as the years went on andhe developed that you know I
haven't talked to him in yearsbut I'm like man he really
gathered a lot of knowledge andthen applied it and created
something totally new and unique.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
I was reading from UN tourism that sports travel is
10% of tourism expendituresglobally.
The sector is 17% growth from23 to 2030.
That's an expectation and itmakes sense when you consider
the breadth of the genre,everything from the Super Bowl
to youth sports tournaments.
But are minor leagues?
(10:48):
Are they a generator ofsignificant revenue and volume
and travel business for hotelsand buses and airlines?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, I mean, I would say so.
I mean not necessarily massive,but it definitely has an impact
.
In any city that has a minorleague team, you're going to
have players coming in andspending from the visiting team.
Spending nights at hotels areusually a designated hotel all
year long, and you know.
(11:15):
So that is pretty significantin the smaller markets and
there's definitely, you know, Iknow a lot of them.
I don't know what they make upin terms of the overall
percentage of fans, but there'sa lot of baseball travelers out
there and people who you knowwant to see as much of the minor
league landscape as they can.
So I'm sure there is, you know,tourism based on that as well,
and you know hotel bookings andeverything that comes along with
(11:37):
travel from the fans end aswell.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Yeah, the MLB players association.
The collective bargainingagreement, I think, covers
triple a, but maybe not beneaththat level in the in the
provisions for what a club mustprovide for travel.
Like you know, trips exceeding350 miles must be taken by air
and family-friendlyaccommodations and stipends and
per diems and stuff like that.
(12:01):
Do minor league team playerstravel well?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
better than they used to.
I mean major league up through2020, you know, minor league
baseball was a separate entitywith a working agreement with
Major League Baseball and in2021, major League Baseball took
over the minor leagues and youknow they initiated, you know,
six game homestands.
So there's less travel nowbecause once you go on a road
trip, you settle in for aTuesday through Sunday series
(12:29):
wherever you're playing.
And, yeah, they increased theplayers per diems and also, I
think, codified team hotels andstipulations for housing in
general that previously didn'texist.
You know you talk to playersfrom 30, 40 years ago and, of
course, they're kind of romanticabout it, but sleeping on air
(12:50):
mattresses and these crowdedrented condos or staying at, you
know, real divey hotels on theroad, that aspect, which is you
can see why it's a little bitromanticized in retrospect is is
largely a thing of the past now, how do you get around the
country?
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Do you, do you drive everywhere, or are you or do you
fly?
And when you actually arrive inplaces, where do you stay?
Do you stay at the hotels withthe teams, or are you managing
all of your travel for this,because it sounds like you were
just on the road for threemonths straight.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I know I think I create the impression not really
purposefully that I'm on theroad more than I really am.
I'm then booking and contactingteams about the next trip and
it gets like all sort of crazy.
Like right now, I was inSomerset, New Jersey, last night
for a theme night dedicated tothe podcast on part of the show.
Before the show, my newslettercame out today with the recap of
(14:03):
my night with the Iowa Cubs inDes Moines and I'm in the
process of reaching out to teamsin South Carolina, Tennessee
and Georgia about my next tripin like less than two weeks.
So there's just this constantlike bouncing around.
But yeah, it's usually about aweek a month.
It's just that I get so muchmaterial and it comes out in
different platforms in differentways that they're just always
(14:25):
for like five, six, seven monthsstraight.
It's just material for me beingon the road, but it doesn't
mean I'm always actually on theroad.
Like right now, I'm in a littlephone room at the MLB offices,
which is usually where I can befound, you know, more often than
not.
And the trips themselvesusually I fly and then rent a
car in the first city I'mvisiting and then return the car
(14:46):
at the last city I visit.
So pretty basic operation.
I didn't even have a carbetween 2002 and 2022 living in
New York City.
So I was grateful for theseroad trips because they kept me
driving a decent amount everysingle summer, Because otherwise
getting a car in New York Cityafter 20 years of not driving
(15:08):
would have been a pretty toughre-entry behind the wheels.
But yeah, now I got the 2008Subaru Outback.
So if something is within areasonable distance from New
York City I'll just drive.
And the hotels when I firststarted and this was all a
little more tenuous I waswatching the budget.
As much as I could I wouldcontact the teams and say what's
the team hotel?
Because usually they would tellme the team hotel and say we'll
(15:31):
get you the team rate.
So that was important as I wastrying to minimize budget.
Now I'm not living likeopulently, but now I'm just
booking.
You know we have to use thein-house Concur travel system,
so now I go through that and youknow and I'm, yeah, it's still
reasonable.
It's usually I'm staying atchains and we have a uh
(15:54):
sponsorship with windham hotels,so try to prioritize those
properties when we can.
But um, yeah, it's pretty muchwhat you'd call middle of the
road.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
A big part of your writing covers the food options
at minor league stadiums, andyou've also talked about having
celiac disease, and so at everyballpark you recruit a
designated eater to consume thestadium cuisine that you cannot.
What's the best stadium foodand beverage for you and your
(16:27):
designated eater?
And give us a couple, like ifwe were going on a culinary tour
and wanted to find somethingeither that was pretty good or
something pretty weird.
What?
What have you discovered outthere recently that that we
should check out?
Speaker 2 (16:41):
yeah, there's so much out there.
Uh, I often suffer from a bit ofa recency bias, and you know
answering these questionsbecause there's so many places
and it all blurs together.
So, speaking of recency biasagain, I was at the Somerset
Patriots in Central Jersey justlast night and they had a
phenomenal array of stuff.
(17:03):
They have an alternate identityas the Jersey Diners, so they
have the Jersey Diner burgerstopped on a waffle bun and
topped with pork roll and syrup,so that was pretty unique.
And also a Patriot chickensandwich that was red, white and
blue.
I think the red was red peppers, the white was mozzarella
(17:23):
cheese and the blue was coleslawwith a food dye in it.
But those are two greatexamples just from yesterday.
Two teams in the Southwest thatI think are both great, roughly
the Southwest, but El PasoChihuahuas are located right on
the Mexican border, so you knowa lot of their fans and game day
employees you know actuallylive in Mexico.
(17:45):
So you know the most authentic,you most authentic kind of
Mexican inspired cuisine you canget in El Paso with the
Chihuahuas.
They have some really goodstuff.
Albuquerque isotopes the landof the green chili, is like
their condiment stations, justhave green chilies, like you can
put it on everything, and theyhave an alternate identity as
the green chili cheeseburgersand do a lot of other creative
(18:06):
stuff.
Rocket City Trash Pandas havemade a point of you know
rotating in and out a lot oflike creative specials.
I think when I was there theyhad s'more fries.
It was like sweet potato friestopped with you know s'more
toppings, chocolate andmarshmallow and graham crackers.
You know a lot of teams do kindof opponent dogs or you know
hot dogs based on the regionalcuisine of whoever they're
(18:28):
playing.
So you see a lot of interestinghot dogs go in and out.
Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs are ateam that has always been great
I mean bacon-centric being theIron Pigs but they're one of
those teams that has like aseparate standalone website,
pigs Food Finder.
Because they have so manyoptions.
They direct you to a standalonewebsite just listing everything
(18:48):
and, where it is around theballpark, some really creative
stuff in there as well.
Yeah, so there's so much outthere.
Obviously, newer stadiums oftendo it better because the older
parks usually weren't built withas much kitchen space and the
ability to really get morecreative.
But any team with a newballpark like I'll be visiting
the hub city Spartan burgerslater this month.
(19:09):
And yeah, they're named theSpartan burgers, so they made it
a big thing, like we got tohave the best burgers, and
apparently they have like ahundred 100 toppings available
at their burger bar, so we'llsee how that goes.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
It's time for the lightning round.
I'll start us off here.
Of course, modern leaguebaseball is the last glorious
refuge of deliriously goofygiveaways to entice fans.
I think you've written recentlyabout the Shelbowski bobblehead
and a themed Bob Ross night,and it sounds like almost every
(19:43):
night during the season there'ssomething like this happening
somewhere in the country.
What are some of your all-timefavorite promo night themes?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, the Bob Ross and Big Shelbowski were both
Daytona Tortugas.
Love that ballpark in DaytonaBeach.
It's actually the oldestballpark in all of minor league
baseball.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
And the Cincinnati Reds affiliate.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, yeah, it's a great one.
I always tell people to visitDaytona when they ask for a
handful of parks worth visiting.
Yeah, they've done somecreative giveaways.
I feel like maybe giveawaysaren't as wacky as they were a
little bit earlier.
I feel like teams have settledin on bobbleheads and a little
bit more by-the-number stuff inrecent years, for whatever
(20:26):
reason.
But you still get, of course, avariety of bobbling appendages
beyond the head.
You know, bobble arms and legs,depending on who you're
celebrating.
Quote unquote real hair bobbleheads where the players I don't
know if it's what is real, butyou know the players have like
hair if they're known for theirlong hair or a mustache.
I think there was a Paul Skeen'sbobble stash last year by the
(20:49):
Altoona Curve the Altoona Curvethe first game I ever attended
professionally to go see a promo.
I bring it up all the timebecause it speaks to the spirit
I was really trying to seek out,but I went for their awful
night way back in 2007.
And the whole premise is justto be as quote unquote awful as
possible and I love those justridiculous concepts.
(21:10):
And they gave away sporks whenyou walked in, just like a
plastic spork.
That's one of my favoritegiveaways of all time, just
walking into a ballpark and forno reason whatsoever, being
handed a spork.
They had an awful night.
That was before my time.
Their general manager at thetime was a guy named Todd
parnell and he did hisgallbladder removed and he tried
(21:32):
to give away his gallbladderlike in a jar, but then I think
that got nixed for probablypretty obvious reasons.
But I think they gave away likephotocopies of his gallbladder,
of his gallbladder oh, wow,okay, that's a great match with
s'mores fries night, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Given that there is actually a business going on
here, do the guys from themajors, when the studs get sent
down for for rehab or someassignment?
Do they fit into all thiswackiness?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I'd say generally no, which is fine, but that leads
to I love that contrast of, andagain, recency bias.
I was at the Somerset Patriotsgame last night and Marcus
Stroman started the game.
Giancarlo Stanton was in thestarting lineup on his second
(22:24):
game of his rehab assignment andthere's actually a video from
last night of me and my podcastco-host, sam Dykstra and Tyler
Maughan singing the seventhinning stretch and Stanton is
just like six feet away from us,like swinging a bat in the
on-deck circle.
I didn't even realize he wasthere.
I was so locked in.
But there's always thatdisconnect of like, whether it's
just a regular player or arehabber of like.
(22:47):
For the most part those guyshave to be pretty like blinders
on.
So of course they notice things, especially when you're a
day-to-day player, butespecially a rehabber, you're
just kind of like I'm here, youknow you can be friendly, stop
and sign autographs.
They often do, but you're notreally being like wow, the
(23:10):
minors, I kind of miss it.
Everything I've seen with thatis just like you got a job.
Yeah, yeah, give me the hellback to the major leagues and
it's like no, knock specificallyon the minors.
But you know they're obviouslylooking at their time in minor
league baseball a lot differentthan uh, you know the fans who
are going for something totallydifferent, although when there
is a rehabber of that caliber, alot of the fans are coming out
to see it and it's always afinancial boost for teams, and
(23:30):
I'm sure you know tourism ingeneral when you can advertise
that.
The problem is you often don'thave too much leeway for
planning, so you often don'tdraw from too far away, but a
fan who might not be thinking ofgoing on a Wednesday night is
like well, wait a second, let'sgo, you know take a flyer on a
ten dollar ticket, though, andyou might end up seeing marcus
stroman and john carlos stantonyeah, yeah, I mean it's totally
(23:52):
feasible, it happens all thetime.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
I mean maybe not those two guys, but just in
general, of course with 200,approximately 200 parks to
choose from in the minor leagues, rattle off your top five.
You mentioned that the daytonatortugas affiliate of the
cincinnati reds.
Uh, who's your next four?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
this can change by the day, but yeah, I'll put
daytona jackie robinson ballparkso named because in 1946 jackie
robinson played his first gamesas a member of the dodgers
organization uh, at springtraining in that ballpark and
that's a.
Yeah, I forgot it was alightning round.
I could go on and on andtangents about everything, but
yeah, put Daytona up there.
I always put Redding up there.
(24:35):
Part of it's my bias as a kidwho grew up in the Philadelphia
area, just because they're aPhillies affiliate have been
since 1967, ballpark built in1950, great front office, a
great you know, just greatatmosphere at the ballpark, a
mix of old and new.
So I put that up there a lot.
I also talked about it already,but I put El Paso up there.
(24:56):
I mean I love its location,where you're literally looking
into another country from beyondthe ballpark, and really
creative architecture throughoutIn right field.
They have this like four levelstructure topped by the rooftop
deck where you can see the gamewith an awesome view, and they
have different bars andrestaurants all the way through
this structure, Because it's asmall footprint for a AAA
(25:18):
stadium.
So they got really creative.
They actually literally blew upCity Hall in order to build
that ballpark.
The Chihuahuas, yeah.
So the Chihuahuas, yeah, theyhad some might in that case.
So you guys mentioned Asheville.
I throw that up there all thetime.
I'm uh, I do like new ballparksbut I ultimately am my fan's
(25:40):
heart.
You know, trend towards theclassics and McCormick field is
a hundred years old, now 101years old.
You know, I believe it's theonly minor league baseball
stadium that can say Babe Ruthplayed here.
You know, I believe it's theonly minor league baseball
stadium that can say Babe Ruthplayed here.
You know, there's just so manypeople who came through that
ballpark through the years,whether as minor leaguers or as
barnstormers.
You know it's in this hillyarea, it's just kind of nestled
(26:01):
right in there.
It's just got such a uniquethrowback feel.
And I got one more Today.
I say Toledo.
I think Toledo is great.
You know a lot of ballparks arethe centerpiece of a downtown
revitalization project and youknow that can go in myriad ways.
(26:24):
But if you want an example tome of like how successful that
can be, like, the areasurrounding the ballpark is
called Hensville.
The team owns a lot of theother buildings around it and so
it's like taking an oldindustrial area with a lot of
abandoned buildings and it'sjust.
The whole neighborhood isbaseball and there's such a
vibrant atmosphere and, again,creative architecture and the
way the ballpark is incorporatedin the landscape around it and
a team that has been around, youknow, for a very long time and
(26:47):
incarnate incarnations.
So let's go with Toledo.
But yeah, I can change thisanswer by the day.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I think that's one of the beautiful things about your
job.
Ben, thank you so much forbeing part of no show and uh,
it's been a blast.
We love talking to you and hopeto see you soon.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, thanks guys for having me and good talking to
you, and I rambled on, as Ialways do.
Once you get started, there'sjust too much to talk about.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
We'll hope to see you at a fight and Phil's game soon
.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, come out to Reading, beautiful place.
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