December 9, 2025 • 24 mins
Nobody knows the ebbs and flows, ins and outs, weather patterns and trail ratings of Canadian tourism like Travel Alberta's CEO David Goldstein.
In a candid and free-flowing conversation, we talk about how and why tourism traffic and spend is (way) up in Alberta, as well as the province's approach to Indigenous tourism partnerships, balancing big-ticket destinations like Banff with worthwhile places off the beaten path, deciding which global markets to focus marketing on, Alberta's evolving image in traveler's minds, and how Canada's tourism initiatives are a best-in-class model. Plus the best ski slopes in Alberta, and the lifelong travails of being an Ottawa Senators fan.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Brown (00:08):
Hi everybody, it's No Show with Matt Brown and Jeff
Borman.
Does anyone know the ebbs andflows, ins and outs, weather
patterns, and trail ratings ofCanadian tourism like David
Goldstein?
As Bob and Doug Mackenzie usedto say, no way, hoser.
David is chief executiveofficer of Travel Alberta, which
is the official destinationmanagement organization for the
(00:29):
province of Alberta, working todevelop, promote, and invest in
tourism experiences throughoutthe province.
Prior to that, he was presidentCEO of Destination Canada,
president CEO of the TourismIndustry Association of Canada,
and spent years in the broadcastand media industry.
He is leading a long-termstrategy for Alberta to grow the
visitor economy to $25 billionannually by 2035.
(00:52):
He is a superb chef,well-intentioned skier, lover of
national lampoon style roadtrips.
David, welcome to No Show.
David Goldstein (01:00):
Thanks, guys, for having me on.
This is great.
Matt Brown (01:02):
One of my favorite Instagram accounts is Travel
Alberta.
And through it, you see a lensof the province that I, up until
this point in my life had neverseen.
And I've noticed that theprovince has undergone a major
brand refresh in recent years.
The imagery is very diverse,very much a balance of culture
(01:23):
and cuisine and nature, verysophisticated.
You know, we're seeing a lot ofluxury cabins and sexy people
and sunlit skylines, and itlooks great.
David Goldstein (01:34):
Everyone's sexy where I come from.
Matt Brown (01:36):
What was the genesis of the rebrand and what's the
reception to some of yourefforts been like over the last
few years?
David Goldstein (01:45):
So that's a what great question to start off
with.
And it's a hard one, right?
Because I think generally inthe tourism business,
everybody's focused on marketingor the demand side.
And unless you really look atthe supply side and the
experience side, uh, I think Ithink a lot of destinations are
missing out.
You hear the saying all thetime, well, we're changing the
(02:06):
transmission as we're driving100 miles an hour down the
highway.
Well, sometimes the car juststops, right?
So during COVID, the car juststopped.
And it gave us a really goodopportunity to look under the
hood at who we were as adestination, how we were
representing ourselves, what wasworking, what wasn't working.
We were like a lot of typicaldestinations, big, glorious uh
(02:26):
shots of uh uh and and there areexquisite landscapes in Alberta
from the mountains to thehoodoos.
Like it's it's but often shotswithout people.
And I think, you know, nowadaysthis is a real focus.
And so I hope in the Instagramand the other stuff you've seen,
you're actually going to seethe people stories uh uh and the
people who are part of that.
We've tried to focus on ourdistinctive nature.
(02:47):
So the the new, you know, abrand is not a tagline, but the
tagline that we use is Canada'swild side, Canada's Alberta.
We put we purposely put Canadain the window because people
know the country.
We're not trying to give ageography lesson.
We we've spent a lot of timedigging into the people stories.
And so that's that that was thegenesis of the uh of the brand
(03:07):
shift.
And we think it uh it'sresonating great both here in
the US and in the seven or eightdifferent markets we're in
around the world.
Matt Brown (03:15):
You've spoken often about legacy locations.
And you know, in my mind, youknow, Banff was sort of the
international star for decades.
But Travel Alberta isdefinitely spreading the love to
Jasper and Dinosaur and WoodBuffalo National Parks, among
many others.
And as you just said, Albertais so diverse.
You know, you've got theRockies, you've got the
Badlands, you've got the cities.
How do you balance what I wouldimagine is considerable
(03:38):
economic and political pressureof promoting the province's sort
of big ticket destinations?
Look, these are the ones thatare tried and true.
They've worked for years, withuncovering, and I feel like
you've you've done a lot of thisover the last year or two,
uncovering kind of lesser-knownlocal rural experiences.
Is everybody on board, or doyou have to kind of shepherd
(03:59):
them to where you want to go?
David Goldstein (04:00):
Well, we're pretty fortunate that we have
the a really strong team Albertaapproach.
So a lot of the regions havecome behind this.
Listen, let's again, let's takea step back to during the COVID
period.
We had to take an honest lookat ourselves.
65% of the visitor revenue forthe province was happening
during five months of the year.
And that was happening in aboutfive locations around the
province, right?
So we still love people to cometo Banff in the summertime, but
(04:23):
we don't have to sell Banff inthe summertime.
It it, you know, lots of peoplewill come there.
The question is how youdisperse folks to other places,
other parts of the province.
What are the experiences theycan have there?
And then we had to take anhonest look at the inventory of
experiences or itineraries thatwe had in different parts of the
province.
We've got some upside anddownsides.
The upside is we have tworeally well-connected
(04:44):
international airports.
The upside and downside iswe're not sitting on top of a
big U.S.
city, so there's not a lot ofrubber tire traffic.
So if people are familiar withCanada, you know, people in
Quebec and Ontario or BritishColumbia, they have those big
U.S.
cities sitting beneath them.
So they get a lot of rubbertire traffic.
Um, that's good and bad for us.
You know, it's it's bad becausewe don't get that volume.
But the Americans or othertravelers, we're a fly-to
(05:06):
destination, so they'redeliberately coming here.
We and we have to give them theexperiences that they're
looking for.
What that meant was we did aschematic during COVID to set up
10 tourism development zonesaround the province.
This was a very deliberatestrategy to say people are still
going to come to Banff and likeLouise and Jasper.
What are the alternativeitineraries or the add-on
(05:28):
itineraries that we can givethem, which in many cases are
with a two and a half, threehour drive from one of the
international airports, right?
And then how do we invest withour partners to create those
experiences?
One of the biggest investmentswe made is in Indigenous
tourism.
We're the largest provincialinvestor in Indigenous tourism
in the country right now.
We've taken interesting uhfindings from New Zealand and
(05:49):
other places that have done itauthentically and in very close
partnership with Indigenouscommunities and an organization
called Indigenous TourismAlberta.
This has been, we sort oftriple down on this.
Um, and then that's that thathelps paint a different picture
of the destination.
So I don't really care if yourlisteners or anybody knows where
the borders or the geographylesson of where Alberta is.
(06:09):
I want them to come for theexperiences.
Jeff Borman (06:11):
Yeah, over tourism is something that we've touched
on a number of times over theyears.
And one of the solutions that'soften proposed is dispersing
those travelers, right?
And the easiest example, Ithink, tends to be France.
Paris is the most visited cityin the world.
Everyone goes.
And what the French tourismministry really needs to do,
wants to do is show off howbeautiful the rest of France is.
(06:34):
Uh, Italy, you'd say the samething about Venice.
How do you actually do thatthough?
David Goldstein (06:39):
Well, it's you know, everybody says it.
It's actually, you know, it'shard to do.
And and and again, that's whywe set up these deliberate
zones.
But the zones are not just likegeographic lines on a map.
They're they're literally areasthat we we we've plotted out.
And we work with our traveltrade partners and we work with
our in-house digital team and wework with by by by helping
establish some of these new uhexperiences and then putting in
(07:02):
promotion behind them.
You can't just market your wayout of the problem, right?
There has to be really coolstuff for people to do.
Once you dig into that and youwork with great entrepreneurs,
because I mean, you know theindustry, one of the challenges
we have is because of the natureof the industry, they're
typically undercapitalized,right?
So if we can be that sort offirst in, last in investment
(07:24):
that gets those experiences upoff the ground to get them tra
uh to get them uh travel tradeready and then offer them up to
uh our travel trade partners, uhboth here in the states and
around the world, that's thesecret sauce.
So we're not just a marketingagency, we're actually an
investment agency as well.
It's not an industry subsidy,it's it's very targeted
(07:45):
investments in very importantparts of the province.
And then that's something thatwhen we go on the road, and it
happens all the time when I talkto my clients.
I just came from a tour ofWestern Europe, all the all the
big clients were so what's new,right?
What's new?
I actually have even a prettierdress to put in the window, as
we say in the marketingbusiness, right?
So so that's part of the thethe special thing that we're
(08:05):
doing in Alberta.
Jeff Borman (08:06):
You know, I live in Texas, and if we could take any
example, like if you can figureout how to like do a campaign,
visit the tar sand.
If we if we could learn how tovisit Midland based on your
example, that'd be great.
We're struggling in Texas.
David Goldstein (08:20):
But you're not in the middle of no listen, I I
I I'm not gonna opine on how mycolleagues or how my friends in
Texas do their job because youknow they've got one of the best
taglines on the world was don'tmess with Texas.
I don't even think they I don'teven think they dream that up,
right?
Um, you know, nobody marketslike Americans.
I I'm gonna let them have that.
But no, I mean there it doesn'tcome easily, like to earlier in
(08:41):
your question.
Like you have to be verydeliberate about this.
We have five UNESCO WorldHeritage Sites, right?
But nobody when they're bookingan itinerary is thinking about,
well, I'm gonna go, or theremight be a few people go, I want
to go see all the world UNESCOheritage sites.
No, I I want to go camping inDinosaur Provincial Park, right?
Like that that that's and howdo I do glamping down in that
(09:03):
area that's cool, right?
That like that's the type ofstuff that we're working on, and
then working with glampingoperators to to deliver a
different kind of experience.
That's what we're working on.
Matt Brown (09:11):
David, you were talking to two total nerds who
absolutely plan trips based onUNESCO heritage sites.
So we're the we might be theminority, but we're well, I'm
talking through you to yourlisteners.
We're proud, but we're strong.
You say that nobody marketslike America, but I gotta say, I
feel like, and as I said at thetop of the episode, that you
(09:31):
know you've been working inCanadian tourism for a long
time.
Yeah, it seems like Canada justreally has its act together.
And on a on a provincial level,on a on a kind of federal
level, on a larger level, thecountry just brings a different
lens to all of this as far ascoordination.
Has that been your experience?
David Goldstein (09:48):
We have a very coordinated approach, right?
Like I'm not gonna expend mycompetitors.
We just have to hustle hardertogether.
Okay.
We sort of like the credo, atleast when I was at Destination
Canada, was uh, you know, youhunt alone, you dial.
Uh, we had to marshal theresources from different parts
of the country.
And it's a big country and it'svery diverse.
This aligned approach takes alot of work and faith.
(10:10):
And and you know, Canada is avery big country.
And in some ways, what they'reselling in Atlanta, Canada is
different from what I'm selling.
But the but together we've hadto figure out imagine if you had
13 kids in a family, like we'rekind of the black sheep, right?
Like, like, like, and that'sokay, that's part of our brand.
We're we're okay with that.
You know, that I I was just inWashington speaking to a group,
(10:32):
you know, everybody's veryconcerned about what's going on.
I said, you know, you know,Canadians are generally modest,
self-effacing, uh, you know,humble.
I'm not that fucking Canadian.
I'm a very different guy.
So, so, and and and it's a verydifferent spirit uh of where
we're at, but it does come froman aligned approach, and
everybody gets to play theirpart, right?
Listen, Destination Canada'sbudget is smaller than
(10:54):
California's.
Like, like, like we're we'regonna have to do this as a team.
Now, if I wanted to tag back tothe beginning of your question,
I do think Canada as a wholeand we within Canada are are
having a day in the sun, right?
Yeah, um, I don't know if yourlisteners care about this stuff
because uh this is a little bitmore geeky, but we only look at
revenue.
We we we're not looking atvisitors, which I think goes to
(11:15):
the over tourism question thatwe were talking about earlier.
Um, I I want higher leveltravelers, higher value
travelers.
Um, I'm not measuring packs perse.
I'm measuring uh uh the valueof those travelers.
And uh so we, you know, our theif there was one big metric on
our dashboard, it it's visitorspend.
(11:36):
Uh Canada was up three percentlast year, Alberta was up 12.
Canada is up about two and ahalf this year, year to date,
we're up nine.
And so there's so Canada isdoing well.
Um, and I'm just a littlecompetitive because we're we're
we're doing better, but that hasa lot to do with working
together in each of thesemarkets, particularly the US,
which is still, no matter whatgoes on, the US is still our
(11:59):
biggest market.
Matt Brown (12:00):
How do you decide like which global markets you
want to prioritize?
Is is the US the mainout-of-country audience?
And if they are, like who'swho's after that ad spend-wise
or just like the the focus ofyour your efforts?
David Goldstein (12:14):
There's a little bit of science and a
little bit of uh a little bit ofpassion that goes into this
process.
We do a fairly uh deliberateeconometric exercise.
We we're number one, we'retrying to achieve a sort of a
balanced portfolio approach.
So we could go all in.
I could spend all of our timeand money in the US, because
it's our biggest account or ourbiggest, our biggest market.
(12:36):
But to neglect those othermarkets, you know, leaves
potentially leaves youvulnerable, right?
We have a we have a nice mix inAlberta.
Like I talked about visitorspend before, about half of the
dollars in Alberta, visitoreconomy dollars, are actually
Albertans just traveling aroundAlberta.
It's that domestic money.
The next 25% is other Canadianswho like to come to Alberta.
And then within that last 25%,it's about 60, 40 US versus rest
(13:01):
of the world, right?
I don't want to neglect therest of the world.
And so we go through anexercise and we look at
indicators like proximity, airaccess, uh, whether there's visa
requirements or not.
Like there's a there's a matrixof about seven or eight
criteria.
And then we come up with a likeliterally, you know, before all
the kids were talking aboutalgorithms, we figured out the
equations ourselves, right?
(13:22):
So so it's very data driven.
And then we sort of figure outuh we produce a business plan
that goes to our board ofdirectors that gets signed off
on what we have found is abalanced market approach.
So, like all of the marketstogether are not as big as the
US, but you know, I spend a fairamount of time and we uh we
have teams on the ground inKorea and Japan.
(13:43):
Uh, you know, I just came backfrom the UK and France and
Germany, like like these are allkey players.
And really, uh again, those aregeographic states, right?
Like within them are really keyareas, right?
Like like Mexico.
I could say that we're activein the Mexico market.
It's really Mexico City becausethere's a huge, huge group of
very affluent people, and wehave direct air access between
(14:06):
Calgary and Mexico City.
It's a pretty deliberativeprocess and it's very
data-driven.
Jeff Borman (14:10):
You know, in the US, we can't go a week these
days without hearing an industrynews publication or an earnings
report from a major travelcompany talking about how
Canadian travel to the US isdown by half year over year and
not recovering.
Uh we also, uh for those of uswho are a little more diligent
here every week, uh, or we seethe reports each week that
Canadian occupancy and RevPARare hitting all-time highs as
(14:34):
Canadian travelers are spendingdomestically instead of coming
to the US.
Has there been a strategicapproach that you've used either
to leverage Canada for Canadaand kind of rally that this
year?
David Goldstein (14:47):
Uh listen, I think our federal government has
tried to do that.
I I'm not really I I'm not inthat game.
And I think going back to yourearlier question about
alignment, like we have reallydefined the swim lane.
So the local DMOs, like TourismCalgary and I've been, they're
looking after the domesticmarket, right?
Our focus is reallyinternational.
The only time we do domesticcampaigns, which are really
(15:08):
deliberate, like after theforest fire in Jasper, we did a
domestic campaign to tell peoplethat Jasper was open and
they're welcome back and there'scool stuff to do, right?
But generally we stick to ourswim lane, which is the
international markets.
Um, it's great that Canadiansare traveling around Canada.
Um, we haven't seen a hugeshift in Alberta.
(15:28):
Uh I think I think in Atlantic,Canada and other parts that
they they they've seen thatstay-at-home culture work.
Like I said earlier, ourinternational numbers are up.
Uh, our international clients,like the the travel companies
and the and and the travel tradebusinesses we work with, are
really busy and are forecastingthrough next year really big
numbers.
(15:48):
So uh like again, I sound alittle boastful for a Canadian,
but I I I it's it's just uh umthere is a buzz going on.
And I don't want to get intowell, they're you know, they're
not going to the US to come inhere.
I uh that I'm agnostic on that.
I just I I you know we just putour best, most positive uh uh
uh foot forward and we're seeinggreat response.
Jeff Borman (16:10):
You know, I I think I would recommend a what would
probably be a very bad long-termstrategy to you.
Uh I would, if I were you, gostraight after the 70% of
Americans who are not pleasedwith the way we're treating
Canadians and market directly tothem.
Like if you don't like whatyour government's doing, come to
Alberta.
I bet there's real money to bemade there.
I would buy into that.
David Goldstein (16:31):
Yeah, maybe some private sector entrepreneur
wants to do that.
But you know what?
Like, like, like the majorfocus, uh let's break it down,
okay?
Like the major focus of ouractivity in the US.
I mean, yes, we have nationalcoverage through big tour
operators and that sort ofstuff, but but like, you know,
the collettes and the and andthe talks and that, but I mean,
our real fact, our directorconsumer focus is really
California, Texas, and New York.
And you know, people do want todo this red state, blue state
(16:52):
thing.
Like I I I I I interestingenough, some of our biggest
gains are out of Texas lastyear, and and and we're seeing
this huge surge, especially inshoulder season, like in the
fall, of Americans from thesouth who just want to get away
from the heat, right?
Yeah, um, like they want toplay golf in in August,
September, October, uh, becauseit's not a hundred degrees,
(17:13):
right?
And like last I'm just gettingthe numbers, you know, uh almost
as we speak.
Like we had the biggest Octoberin recorded history.
Like we're like, like, and alot of that's from the US.
So I I I you know why?
I don't I don't need to castany sort of aspersions on it.
It's just it's happening.
Matt Brown (17:32):
I wonder how the other provinces, like how your
brethren in the tourismindustry, because you're the the
spike has been considerable,and I think for a long time, you
know, the the the big cities onthe coast kind of got a lot of
this travel.
I wonder A, what they think,and I'm sure it's all smiles and
congratulations.
And B, I wonder if kind of thethe with the overall rise of
(17:53):
kind of outdoor activity as athing that people do and
families do, that that has kindof helped um help the the boat
rise over the last couple ofdecades.
David Goldstein (18:04):
Would you agree with that?
Um, so there's a couple ofthings, and and my my colleagues
back at home will kill me forsaying this.
Can't is just nice.
Like in in in a in we neverlike to say we're nice and safe
because we never wanted to leaninto that.
But in the with the world theway it is today, that doesn't
hurt.
Okay.
Uh the second thing is, and Ican because I used to represent
the national stage, I can giveyou wonderful outdoor uh
(18:27):
activities all over the all overthe country, right?
I think where we're sort ofshining right now uh as a as a
region, first of all, there thethe the province has changed a
lot in the last decade, 15years.
It's a our our our cities, ourmajor cities uh are far more
diverse.
We have a culinary scene thatthat uh hasn't, you know, that
(18:47):
that that's on fire.
We have a cultural scene that'son fire.
Like the people wouldn't thinkoff the top that the second
largest Afro-Caribbean festivalin the country is in Edmonton,
Alberta.
Like so there's a the the thethe the there's there's this
vibe going on there right on thecusp of nature.
And I think this is anotherthing.
Like I live in Calgary, uh inthe northwest end of Calgary.
(19:09):
My wife and I can leave at sixin the morning and we're in our
ski boots and skiing at eighto'clock in in Lake Louise.
Like, like so that that thatnot these sort of cool urban
centers right on the edge ofnature has been something that's
really appealing.
Europeans, Asians, uh evenAmericans, like like like like
just to be able to get out oftown that's it to to be in a
major metropolitan area that'scool and diverse and hip, and
(19:31):
then go out to to the mountainsis fantastic.
I don't know if that answeredyour question, but um I I think
I think our image has evolvedover the last few years.
Matt Brown (19:40):
It's time for the mystery question.
David, you love all yourchildren, of course, equally,
um, even the black sheep.
If you had to choose oneunderrated ski destination in
all of Canada, it doesn't haveto be Alberta, but you are under
the microscope here.
If you had to choose one skidestination that is kind of
underrated, should get a littlemore credit and people should
(20:02):
check out.
David Goldstein (20:02):
What would that be?
I'll give you two.
One that's gonna get me inshit, and and the other that is
uh that is full on brand.
Um I grew up in Ottawa, uh, soI grew up, I grew up in the
east, and we used to go toMontremblac.
Uh, but near Montranblac is aplace called Mont Blanc, which
is kind of like the where thelocal ski.
And it's you know, it, youknow, it's not it's not as
(20:25):
jazzy, it's not as the the linesaren't long, and the you know,
it's it's not as she she, butit's a it's a it's a great place
for family skiing.
Back in Alberta, you know,obviously sunshine and Lake
Louise um are fantastic.
Marmot Basin, which is inJasper, if you haven't skied up
there, uh it's got it's got sortof equivalent vertical.
It's it's not as as as busy.
(20:48):
It's a lot a bit of a longerdrive, yes.
Uh, but Jasper itself is just ajewel.
And and and marmot's a great,great ski destination.
And then there's another one,Nikiska, which is actually
really close.
It's like 45 minutes fromCalgary.
You know, the the the problemwhen you get to Alberta is you
get spoiled by vertical, right?
I'm gonna get a littletechnical here.
So the ski geeks, right?
You don't want to ski hills,right?
(21:08):
You you ski mountains, right?
But Nikiska, which is rightoutside of uh uh uh of Calgary,
is a still a mountain skiexperience, uh, but still has
that local feel, kind of likeMont Blanc does next to
Tromblan.
So like like it's it it'sreally a unique sort of special
experience.
We have a dozen of those.
(21:29):
Like the blessing of living inthe shadow of the Rockies is
that we have a we literally havea dozen of those experiences.
Um, and for people who areprepared to come out there, the
other thing, um, which I youknow it struck me when I was in
France talking to someoperators, we have real spring
skiing.
Like that's that like that'ssomething that you know, even
(21:49):
some of the northern U.S.
guys are are having a hard timeholding on to snow later in the
season.
So uh like you come, if youguys are skiers, you come and
visit me end of April, earlyMay, and I will take you for
some of the best spring skiinguh in your lives, like skiing in
t-shirts.
It's fantastic because we stillhave snow.
Uh, I think Sunshine was lastyear open till the May 2-4
(22:13):
weekend, like like the May Longweekend.
Like, like, like it's it's it'sit's kind of a unique little
thing in North America.
We usually get the first snowand we have the last no.
Matt Brown (22:21):
Jeff, listen to that brand management.
Isn't that a beautiful thing?
And right on the edge of skiseason.
That's amazing.
Thank you, David Goldstein, forbeing our guest today.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
David Goldstein (22:32):
Thanks, gentlemen.
Hope to talk to you again soon.
I hope so.
Jeff Borman (22:35):
Now that we can finish the recording, what's
your hockey team?
David Goldstein (22:39):
So I've got a great story.
Hold on.
Cue the recording.
You paid for the whole seat,you're only gonna use the edge.
Um, so I grew up in Ottawa andI'm old enough, you probably
can't tell, but you I'm oldenough.
I'm a pre-senators Ottawa kid.
So you had to be Canadians orLeafs, right?
And usually the French kids,because Ottawa is kind of a
bilingual town, the French kidswere Canadians fans, and the and
(23:02):
and the English kids followedthe Leafs.
Um, I was always a Canadiansfan growing up.
And and so in the old days, theCBC used to run uh hockey night
in Canada on Saturday nights,and they would have the Maple
Leafs game in English, and thenRadio Canada, which is the
French CBC, would have theCanadians game.
So my buddies and I would gettogether in in the rec room and
(23:22):
we'd watch the game on TV, wewatch it on French CBC, we watch
the Canadians on CBC turn thevolume off and turn the play by
play.
A local radio station used todo, uh, used to do the play by
play in English.
So so I was a Canadians fan,and then the Sens come to town,
then you had to make a choice,right?
You're you gotta decide, you'regonna convert, you know.
Matt Brown (23:40):
This sounds like a religious decision to hear about
it.
David Goldstein (23:43):
It is, man.
It's hard to do that.
We're actually the Moors andthis place we're talking about
in the 1890s.
No, no, seriously, it's aconversion, right?
So you gotta go through this.
So I become a Sense fan, okay?
They had a pretty good team fora while, like like was you
know, Spezza and the you know,like they they had a good well,
then I moved to Vancouver totake on this the destination
canon job because that's wherethey're headquartered.
(24:03):
And I'm like, I showed up atthe arena when a friend of mine
took me to it again.
I'm like, I can't be a fuckingCanucks fan.
I'm not I'm not convertingagain.
There's no there's no point tothat.
Like, I just I can't do it.
So I lived there for fiveyears, and you know, I would
just go when the Sens were intown because then I would be
that I'd be that jerk in theother guys, you know, I I'd wear
my Sens jersey on anyway.
I moved to Alberta about fiveyears ago.
(24:25):
And two things.
First of all, the Sen sucked,and then they were they're
getting better now, like they'rethey're rebuilding the team.
But I was still a Sense fanbecause it kept me out of the
Battle of Alberta.
I didn't have to choose betweenthe Oilers and the Flames.
I could and then when you sellyou tell people like, well,
you're a Sense fan, and theyjust tilt your head their head
like your dog died or somethinglike that, they feel bad for
you.
But that's that's the story,boys.
That's it, that's that's it.
(24:46):
I'm still a sense fan.
Hi everybody, it's No Show with Matt Brown and Jeff
Borman.
Does anyone know the ebbs andflows, ins and outs, weather
patterns, and trail ratings ofCanadian tourism like David
Goldstein?
As Bob and Doug Mackenzie usedto say, no way, hoser.
David is chief executiveofficer of Travel Alberta, which
is the official destinationmanagement organization for the
(00:29):
province of Alberta, working todevelop, promote, and invest in
tourism experiences throughoutthe province.
Prior to that, he was presidentCEO of Destination Canada,
president CEO of the TourismIndustry Association of Canada,
and spent years in the broadcastand media industry.
He is leading a long-termstrategy for Alberta to grow the
visitor economy to $25 billionannually by 2035.
(00:52):
He is a superb chef,well-intentioned skier, lover of
national lampoon style roadtrips.
David, welcome to No Show.
David Goldstein (01:00):
Thanks, guys, for having me on.
This is great.
Matt Brown (01:02):
One of my favorite Instagram accounts is Travel
Alberta.
And through it, you see a lensof the province that I, up until
this point in my life had neverseen.
And I've noticed that theprovince has undergone a major
brand refresh in recent years.
The imagery is very diverse,very much a balance of culture
(01:23):
and cuisine and nature, verysophisticated.
You know, we're seeing a lot ofluxury cabins and sexy people
and sunlit skylines, and itlooks great.
David Goldstein (01:34):
Everyone's sexy where I come from.
Matt Brown (01:36):
What was the genesis of the rebrand and what's the
reception to some of yourefforts been like over the last
few years?
David Goldstein (01:45):
So that's a what great question to start off
with.
And it's a hard one, right?
Because I think generally inthe tourism business,
everybody's focused on marketingor the demand side.
And unless you really look atthe supply side and the
experience side, uh, I think Ithink a lot of destinations are
missing out.
You hear the saying all thetime, well, we're changing the
(02:06):
transmission as we're driving100 miles an hour down the
highway.
Well, sometimes the car juststops, right?
So during COVID, the car juststopped.
And it gave us a really goodopportunity to look under the
hood at who we were as adestination, how we were
representing ourselves, what wasworking, what wasn't working.
We were like a lot of typicaldestinations, big, glorious uh
(02:26):
shots of uh uh and and there areexquisite landscapes in Alberta
from the mountains to thehoodoos.
Like it's it's but often shotswithout people.
And I think, you know, nowadaysthis is a real focus.
And so I hope in the Instagramand the other stuff you've seen,
you're actually going to seethe people stories uh uh and the
people who are part of that.
We've tried to focus on ourdistinctive nature.
(02:47):
So the the new, you know, abrand is not a tagline, but the
tagline that we use is Canada'swild side, Canada's Alberta.
We put we purposely put Canadain the window because people
know the country.
We're not trying to give ageography lesson.
We we've spent a lot of timedigging into the people stories.
And so that's that that was thegenesis of the uh of the brand
(03:07):
shift.
And we think it uh it'sresonating great both here in
the US and in the seven or eightdifferent markets we're in
around the world.
Matt Brown (03:15):
You've spoken often about legacy locations.
And you know, in my mind, youknow, Banff was sort of the
international star for decades.
But Travel Alberta isdefinitely spreading the love to
Jasper and Dinosaur and WoodBuffalo National Parks, among
many others.
And as you just said, Albertais so diverse.
You know, you've got theRockies, you've got the
Badlands, you've got the cities.
How do you balance what I wouldimagine is considerable
(03:38):
economic and political pressureof promoting the province's sort
of big ticket destinations?
Look, these are the ones thatare tried and true.
They've worked for years, withuncovering, and I feel like
you've you've done a lot of thisover the last year or two,
uncovering kind of lesser-knownlocal rural experiences.
Is everybody on board, or doyou have to kind of shepherd
(03:59):
them to where you want to go?
David Goldstein (04:00):
Well, we're pretty fortunate that we have
the a really strong team Albertaapproach.
So a lot of the regions havecome behind this.
Listen, let's again, let's takea step back to during the COVID
period.
We had to take an honest lookat ourselves.
65% of the visitor revenue forthe province was happening
during five months of the year.
And that was happening in aboutfive locations around the
province, right?
So we still love people to cometo Banff in the summertime, but
(04:23):
we don't have to sell Banff inthe summertime.
It it, you know, lots of peoplewill come there.
The question is how youdisperse folks to other places,
other parts of the province.
What are the experiences theycan have there?
And then we had to take anhonest look at the inventory of
experiences or itineraries thatwe had in different parts of the
province.
We've got some upside anddownsides.
The upside is we have tworeally well-connected
(04:44):
international airports.
The upside and downside iswe're not sitting on top of a
big U.S.
city, so there's not a lot ofrubber tire traffic.
So if people are familiar withCanada, you know, people in
Quebec and Ontario or BritishColumbia, they have those big
U.S.
cities sitting beneath them.
So they get a lot of rubbertire traffic.
Um, that's good and bad for us.
You know, it's it's bad becausewe don't get that volume.
But the Americans or othertravelers, we're a fly-to
(05:06):
destination, so they'redeliberately coming here.
We and we have to give them theexperiences that they're
looking for.
What that meant was we did aschematic during COVID to set up
10 tourism development zonesaround the province.
This was a very deliberatestrategy to say people are still
going to come to Banff and likeLouise and Jasper.
What are the alternativeitineraries or the add-on
(05:28):
itineraries that we can givethem, which in many cases are
with a two and a half, threehour drive from one of the
international airports, right?
And then how do we invest withour partners to create those
experiences?
One of the biggest investmentswe made is in Indigenous
tourism.
We're the largest provincialinvestor in Indigenous tourism
in the country right now.
We've taken interesting uhfindings from New Zealand and
(05:49):
other places that have done itauthentically and in very close
partnership with Indigenouscommunities and an organization
called Indigenous TourismAlberta.
This has been, we sort oftriple down on this.
Um, and then that's that thathelps paint a different picture
of the destination.
So I don't really care if yourlisteners or anybody knows where
the borders or the geographylesson of where Alberta is.
(06:09):
I want them to come for theexperiences.
Jeff Borman (06:11):
Yeah, over tourism is something that we've touched
on a number of times over theyears.
And one of the solutions that'soften proposed is dispersing
those travelers, right?
And the easiest example, Ithink, tends to be France.
Paris is the most visited cityin the world.
Everyone goes.
And what the French tourismministry really needs to do,
wants to do is show off howbeautiful the rest of France is.
(06:34):
Uh, Italy, you'd say the samething about Venice.
How do you actually do thatthough?
David Goldstein (06:39):
Well, it's you know, everybody says it.
It's actually, you know, it'shard to do.
And and and again, that's whywe set up these deliberate
zones.
But the zones are not just likegeographic lines on a map.
They're they're literally areasthat we we we've plotted out.
And we work with our traveltrade partners and we work with
our in-house digital team and wework with by by by helping
establish some of these new uhexperiences and then putting in
(07:02):
promotion behind them.
You can't just market your wayout of the problem, right?
There has to be really coolstuff for people to do.
Once you dig into that and youwork with great entrepreneurs,
because I mean, you know theindustry, one of the challenges
we have is because of the natureof the industry, they're
typically undercapitalized,right?
So if we can be that sort offirst in, last in investment
(07:24):
that gets those experiences upoff the ground to get them tra
uh to get them uh travel tradeready and then offer them up to
uh our travel trade partners, uhboth here in the states and
around the world, that's thesecret sauce.
So we're not just a marketingagency, we're actually an
investment agency as well.
It's not an industry subsidy,it's it's very targeted
(07:45):
investments in very importantparts of the province.
And then that's something thatwhen we go on the road, and it
happens all the time when I talkto my clients.
I just came from a tour ofWestern Europe, all the all the
big clients were so what's new,right?
What's new?
I actually have even a prettierdress to put in the window, as
we say in the marketingbusiness, right?
So so that's part of the thethe special thing that we're
(08:05):
doing in Alberta.
Jeff Borman (08:06):
You know, I live in Texas, and if we could take any
example, like if you can figureout how to like do a campaign,
visit the tar sand.
If we if we could learn how tovisit Midland based on your
example, that'd be great.
We're struggling in Texas.
David Goldstein (08:20):
But you're not in the middle of no listen, I I
I I'm not gonna opine on how mycolleagues or how my friends in
Texas do their job because youknow they've got one of the best
taglines on the world was don'tmess with Texas.
I don't even think they I don'teven think they dream that up,
right?
Um, you know, nobody marketslike Americans.
I I'm gonna let them have that.
But no, I mean there it doesn'tcome easily, like to earlier in
(08:41):
your question.
Like you have to be verydeliberate about this.
We have five UNESCO WorldHeritage Sites, right?
But nobody when they're bookingan itinerary is thinking about,
well, I'm gonna go, or theremight be a few people go, I want
to go see all the world UNESCOheritage sites.
No, I I want to go camping inDinosaur Provincial Park, right?
Like that that that's and howdo I do glamping down in that
(09:03):
area that's cool, right?
That like that's the type ofstuff that we're working on, and
then working with glampingoperators to to deliver a
different kind of experience.
That's what we're working on.
Matt Brown (09:11):
David, you were talking to two total nerds who
absolutely plan trips based onUNESCO heritage sites.
So we're the we might be theminority, but we're well, I'm
talking through you to yourlisteners.
We're proud, but we're strong.
You say that nobody marketslike America, but I gotta say, I
feel like, and as I said at thetop of the episode, that you
(09:31):
know you've been working inCanadian tourism for a long
time.
Yeah, it seems like Canada justreally has its act together.
And on a on a provincial level,on a on a kind of federal
level, on a larger level, thecountry just brings a different
lens to all of this as far ascoordination.
Has that been your experience?
David Goldstein (09:48):
We have a very coordinated approach, right?
Like I'm not gonna expend mycompetitors.
We just have to hustle hardertogether.
Okay.
We sort of like the credo, atleast when I was at Destination
Canada, was uh, you know, youhunt alone, you dial.
Uh, we had to marshal theresources from different parts
of the country.
And it's a big country and it'svery diverse.
This aligned approach takes alot of work and faith.
(10:10):
And and you know, Canada is avery big country.
And in some ways, what they'reselling in Atlanta, Canada is
different from what I'm selling.
But the but together we've hadto figure out imagine if you had
13 kids in a family, like we'rekind of the black sheep, right?
Like, like, like, and that'sokay, that's part of our brand.
We're we're okay with that.
You know, that I I was just inWashington speaking to a group,
(10:32):
you know, everybody's veryconcerned about what's going on.
I said, you know, you know,Canadians are generally modest,
self-effacing, uh, you know,humble.
I'm not that fucking Canadian.
I'm a very different guy.
So, so, and and and it's a verydifferent spirit uh of where
we're at, but it does come froman aligned approach, and
everybody gets to play theirpart, right?
Listen, Destination Canada'sbudget is smaller than
(10:54):
California's.
Like, like, like we're we'regonna have to do this as a team.
Now, if I wanted to tag back tothe beginning of your question,
I do think Canada as a wholeand we within Canada are are
having a day in the sun, right?
Yeah, um, I don't know if yourlisteners care about this stuff
because uh this is a little bitmore geeky, but we only look at
revenue.
We we we're not looking atvisitors, which I think goes to
(11:15):
the over tourism question thatwe were talking about earlier.
Um, I I want higher leveltravelers, higher value
travelers.
Um, I'm not measuring packs perse.
I'm measuring uh uh the valueof those travelers.
And uh so we, you know, our theif there was one big metric on
our dashboard, it it's visitorspend.
(11:36):
Uh Canada was up three percentlast year, Alberta was up 12.
Canada is up about two and ahalf this year, year to date,
we're up nine.
And so there's so Canada isdoing well.
Um, and I'm just a littlecompetitive because we're we're
we're doing better, but that hasa lot to do with working
together in each of thesemarkets, particularly the US,
which is still, no matter whatgoes on, the US is still our
(11:59):
biggest market.
Matt Brown (12:00):
How do you decide like which global markets you
want to prioritize?
Is is the US the mainout-of-country audience?
And if they are, like who'swho's after that ad spend-wise
or just like the the focus ofyour your efforts?
David Goldstein (12:14):
There's a little bit of science and a
little bit of uh a little bit ofpassion that goes into this
process.
We do a fairly uh deliberateeconometric exercise.
We we're number one, we'retrying to achieve a sort of a
balanced portfolio approach.
So we could go all in.
I could spend all of our timeand money in the US, because
it's our biggest account or ourbiggest, our biggest market.
(12:36):
But to neglect those othermarkets, you know, leaves
potentially leaves youvulnerable, right?
We have a we have a nice mix inAlberta.
Like I talked about visitorspend before, about half of the
dollars in Alberta, visitoreconomy dollars, are actually
Albertans just traveling aroundAlberta.
It's that domestic money.
The next 25% is other Canadianswho like to come to Alberta.
And then within that last 25%,it's about 60, 40 US versus rest
(13:01):
of the world, right?
I don't want to neglect therest of the world.
And so we go through anexercise and we look at
indicators like proximity, airaccess, uh, whether there's visa
requirements or not.
Like there's a there's a matrixof about seven or eight
criteria.
And then we come up with a likeliterally, you know, before all
the kids were talking aboutalgorithms, we figured out the
equations ourselves, right?
(13:22):
So so it's very data driven.
And then we sort of figure outuh we produce a business plan
that goes to our board ofdirectors that gets signed off
on what we have found is abalanced market approach.
So, like all of the marketstogether are not as big as the
US, but you know, I spend a fairamount of time and we uh we
have teams on the ground inKorea and Japan.
(13:43):
Uh, you know, I just came backfrom the UK and France and
Germany, like like these are allkey players.
And really, uh again, those aregeographic states, right?
Like within them are really keyareas, right?
Like like Mexico.
I could say that we're activein the Mexico market.
It's really Mexico City becausethere's a huge, huge group of
very affluent people, and wehave direct air access between
(14:06):
Calgary and Mexico City.
It's a pretty deliberativeprocess and it's very
data-driven.
Jeff Borman (14:10):
You know, in the US, we can't go a week these
days without hearing an industrynews publication or an earnings
report from a major travelcompany talking about how
Canadian travel to the US isdown by half year over year and
not recovering.
Uh we also, uh for those of uswho are a little more diligent
here every week, uh, or we seethe reports each week that
Canadian occupancy and RevPARare hitting all-time highs as
(14:34):
Canadian travelers are spendingdomestically instead of coming
to the US.
Has there been a strategicapproach that you've used either
to leverage Canada for Canadaand kind of rally that this
year?
David Goldstein (14:47):
Uh listen, I think our federal government has
tried to do that.
I I'm not really I I'm not inthat game.
And I think going back to yourearlier question about
alignment, like we have reallydefined the swim lane.
So the local DMOs, like TourismCalgary and I've been, they're
looking after the domesticmarket, right?
Our focus is reallyinternational.
The only time we do domesticcampaigns, which are really
(15:08):
deliberate, like after theforest fire in Jasper, we did a
domestic campaign to tell peoplethat Jasper was open and
they're welcome back and there'scool stuff to do, right?
But generally we stick to ourswim lane, which is the
international markets.
Um, it's great that Canadiansare traveling around Canada.
Um, we haven't seen a hugeshift in Alberta.
(15:28):
Uh I think I think in Atlantic,Canada and other parts that
they they they've seen thatstay-at-home culture work.
Like I said earlier, ourinternational numbers are up.
Uh, our international clients,like the the travel companies
and the and and the travel tradebusinesses we work with, are
really busy and are forecastingthrough next year really big
numbers.
(15:48):
So uh like again, I sound alittle boastful for a Canadian,
but I I I it's it's just uh umthere is a buzz going on.
And I don't want to get intowell, they're you know, they're
not going to the US to come inhere.
I uh that I'm agnostic on that.
I just I I you know we just putour best, most positive uh uh
uh foot forward and we're seeinggreat response.
Jeff Borman (16:10):
You know, I I think I would recommend a what would
probably be a very bad long-termstrategy to you.
Uh I would, if I were you, gostraight after the 70% of
Americans who are not pleasedwith the way we're treating
Canadians and market directly tothem.
Like if you don't like whatyour government's doing, come to
Alberta.
I bet there's real money to bemade there.
I would buy into that.
David Goldstein (16:31):
Yeah, maybe some private sector entrepreneur
wants to do that.
But you know what?
Like, like, like the majorfocus, uh let's break it down,
okay?
Like the major focus of ouractivity in the US.
I mean, yes, we have nationalcoverage through big tour
operators and that sort ofstuff, but but like, you know,
the collettes and the and andthe talks and that, but I mean,
our real fact, our directorconsumer focus is really
California, Texas, and New York.
And you know, people do want todo this red state, blue state
(16:52):
thing.
Like I I I I I interestingenough, some of our biggest
gains are out of Texas lastyear, and and and we're seeing
this huge surge, especially inshoulder season, like in the
fall, of Americans from thesouth who just want to get away
from the heat, right?
Yeah, um, like they want toplay golf in in August,
September, October, uh, becauseit's not a hundred degrees,
(17:13):
right?
And like last I'm just gettingthe numbers, you know, uh almost
as we speak.
Like we had the biggest Octoberin recorded history.
Like we're like, like, and alot of that's from the US.
So I I I you know why?
I don't I don't need to castany sort of aspersions on it.
It's just it's happening.
Matt Brown (17:32):
I wonder how the other provinces, like how your
brethren in the tourismindustry, because you're the the
spike has been considerable,and I think for a long time, you
know, the the the big cities onthe coast kind of got a lot of
this travel.
I wonder A, what they think,and I'm sure it's all smiles and
congratulations.
And B, I wonder if kind of thethe with the overall rise of
(17:53):
kind of outdoor activity as athing that people do and
families do, that that has kindof helped um help the the boat
rise over the last couple ofdecades.
David Goldstein (18:04):
Would you agree with that?
Um, so there's a couple ofthings, and and my my colleagues
back at home will kill me forsaying this.
Can't is just nice.
Like in in in a in we neverlike to say we're nice and safe
because we never wanted to leaninto that.
But in the with the world theway it is today, that doesn't
hurt.
Okay.
Uh the second thing is, and Ican because I used to represent
the national stage, I can giveyou wonderful outdoor uh
(18:27):
activities all over the all overthe country, right?
I think where we're sort ofshining right now uh as a as a
region, first of all, there thethe the province has changed a
lot in the last decade, 15years.
It's a our our our cities, ourmajor cities uh are far more
diverse.
We have a culinary scene thatthat uh hasn't, you know, that
(18:47):
that that's on fire.
We have a cultural scene that'son fire.
Like the people wouldn't thinkoff the top that the second
largest Afro-Caribbean festivalin the country is in Edmonton,
Alberta.
Like so there's a the the thethe the there's there's this
vibe going on there right on thecusp of nature.
And I think this is anotherthing.
Like I live in Calgary, uh inthe northwest end of Calgary.
(19:09):
My wife and I can leave at sixin the morning and we're in our
ski boots and skiing at eighto'clock in in Lake Louise.
Like, like so that that thatnot these sort of cool urban
centers right on the edge ofnature has been something that's
really appealing.
Europeans, Asians, uh evenAmericans, like like like like
just to be able to get out oftown that's it to to be in a
major metropolitan area that'scool and diverse and hip, and
(19:31):
then go out to to the mountainsis fantastic.
I don't know if that answeredyour question, but um I I think
I think our image has evolvedover the last few years.
Matt Brown (19:40):
It's time for the mystery question.
David, you love all yourchildren, of course, equally,
um, even the black sheep.
If you had to choose oneunderrated ski destination in
all of Canada, it doesn't haveto be Alberta, but you are under
the microscope here.
If you had to choose one skidestination that is kind of
underrated, should get a littlemore credit and people should
(20:02):
check out.
David Goldstein (20:02):
What would that be?
I'll give you two.
One that's gonna get me inshit, and and the other that is
uh that is full on brand.
Um I grew up in Ottawa, uh, soI grew up, I grew up in the
east, and we used to go toMontremblac.
Uh, but near Montranblac is aplace called Mont Blanc, which
is kind of like the where thelocal ski.
And it's you know, it, youknow, it's not it's not as
(20:25):
jazzy, it's not as the the linesaren't long, and the you know,
it's it's not as she she, butit's a it's a it's a great place
for family skiing.
Back in Alberta, you know,obviously sunshine and Lake
Louise um are fantastic.
Marmot Basin, which is inJasper, if you haven't skied up
there, uh it's got it's got sortof equivalent vertical.
It's it's not as as as busy.
(20:48):
It's a lot a bit of a longerdrive, yes.
Uh, but Jasper itself is just ajewel.
And and and marmot's a great,great ski destination.
And then there's another one,Nikiska, which is actually
really close.
It's like 45 minutes fromCalgary.
You know, the the the problemwhen you get to Alberta is you
get spoiled by vertical, right?
I'm gonna get a littletechnical here.
So the ski geeks, right?
You don't want to ski hills,right?
(21:08):
You you ski mountains, right?
But Nikiska, which is rightoutside of uh uh uh of Calgary,
is a still a mountain skiexperience, uh, but still has
that local feel, kind of likeMont Blanc does next to
Tromblan.
So like like it's it it'sreally a unique sort of special
experience.
We have a dozen of those.
(21:29):
Like the blessing of living inthe shadow of the Rockies is
that we have a we literally havea dozen of those experiences.
Um, and for people who areprepared to come out there, the
other thing, um, which I youknow it struck me when I was in
France talking to someoperators, we have real spring
skiing.
Like that's that like that'ssomething that you know, even
(21:49):
some of the northern U.S.
guys are are having a hard timeholding on to snow later in the
season.
So uh like you come, if youguys are skiers, you come and
visit me end of April, earlyMay, and I will take you for
some of the best spring skiinguh in your lives, like skiing in
t-shirts.
It's fantastic because we stillhave snow.
Uh, I think Sunshine was lastyear open till the May 2-4
(22:13):
weekend, like like the May Longweekend.
Like, like, like it's it's it'sit's kind of a unique little
thing in North America.
We usually get the first snowand we have the last no.
Matt Brown (22:21):
Jeff, listen to that brand management.
Isn't that a beautiful thing?
And right on the edge of skiseason.
That's amazing.
Thank you, David Goldstein, forbeing our guest today.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
David Goldstein (22:32):
Thanks, gentlemen.
Hope to talk to you again soon.
I hope so.
Jeff Borman (22:35):
Now that we can finish the recording, what's
your hockey team?
David Goldstein (22:39):
So I've got a great story.
Hold on.
Cue the recording.
You paid for the whole seat,you're only gonna use the edge.
Um, so I grew up in Ottawa andI'm old enough, you probably
can't tell, but you I'm oldenough.
I'm a pre-senators Ottawa kid.
So you had to be Canadians orLeafs, right?
And usually the French kids,because Ottawa is kind of a
bilingual town, the French kidswere Canadians fans, and the and
(23:02):
and the English kids followedthe Leafs.
Um, I was always a Canadiansfan growing up.
And and so in the old days, theCBC used to run uh hockey night
in Canada on Saturday nights,and they would have the Maple
Leafs game in English, and thenRadio Canada, which is the
French CBC, would have theCanadians game.
So my buddies and I would gettogether in in the rec room and
(23:22):
we'd watch the game on TV, wewatch it on French CBC, we watch
the Canadians on CBC turn thevolume off and turn the play by
play.
A local radio station used todo, uh, used to do the play by
play in English.
So so I was a Canadians fan,and then the Sens come to town,
then you had to make a choice,right?
You're you gotta decide, you'regonna convert, you know.
Matt Brown (23:40):
This sounds like a religious decision to hear about
it.
David Goldstein (23:43):
It is, man.
It's hard to do that.
We're actually the Moors andthis place we're talking about
in the 1890s.
No, no, seriously, it's aconversion, right?
So you gotta go through this.
So I become a Sense fan, okay?
They had a pretty good team fora while, like like was you
know, Spezza and the you know,like they they had a good well,
then I moved to Vancouver totake on this the destination
canon job because that's wherethey're headquartered.
(24:03):
And I'm like, I showed up atthe arena when a friend of mine
took me to it again.
I'm like, I can't be a fuckingCanucks fan.
I'm not I'm not convertingagain.
There's no there's no point tothat.
Like, I just I can't do it.
So I lived there for fiveyears, and you know, I would
just go when the Sens were intown because then I would be
that I'd be that jerk in theother guys, you know, I I'd wear
my Sens jersey on anyway.
I moved to Alberta about fiveyears ago.
(24:25):
And two things.
First of all, the Sen sucked,and then they were they're
getting better now, like they'rethey're rebuilding the team.
But I was still a Sense fanbecause it kept me out of the
Battle of Alberta.
I didn't have to choose betweenthe Oilers and the Flames.
I could and then when you sellyou tell people like, well,
you're a Sense fan, and theyjust tilt your head their head
like your dog died or somethinglike that, they feel bad for
you.
But that's that's the story,boys.
That's it, that's that's it.
(24:46):
I'm still a sense fan.
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