February 19, 2025 • 26 mins
On a stunningly regular basis, Pulitzer Prize winner Carley Thornell delivers insightful stories about sustainability, design, adventure, health, and travel. We talk space tourism, secret hotels, how people think about luxury, what Trump 2.0 means for tourism, the tax on families when they travel, and lots, lots more.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hi everybody.
It's no Show, I'm Matt.
That's Jeff.
We're always here hosting on astunningly regular basis.
Pulitzer Prize winner CarlyThornell delivers insightful
stories to readers of Skiff,travel and Leisure, afar, the
Rob Report, usa Today, businessInsider, yahoo, the Boston Globe
and many, many others.
Her current beats include allthings sustainability, design,
(00:31):
adventure, health and travel,and the myriad ways those
subjects connect with technologyand business.
She's been to 65-plus countriesand islands.
She's done zero-G astronauttraining.
As a features reporter at theBoston Herald, she flew
weightless for seven minutes.
She is a cultural chronicler,an advocate of veterans who've
served our country, aconnoisseur of libations, a
(00:52):
bluey expert straight out ofBoston.
Welcome, carly Thornell.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Thank you so much for that rousing introduction.
I hope I live up to theexpectations here.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
You already are.
You already are.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
So let's talk about astronauts.
You've written about escapistretreats of all sorts, from tree
houses to luxury resorts tospace tourism.
Space tourism is not a new idea, but it's actually happening
and it draws rich guys andstartups.
Just thinking about all theplaces they could go that no
(01:27):
one's ever been.
Where is it going?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
So you know, if you look at I love to nerd out and
kind of look at all things liketravel Kegar.
So this is one of thoseindustries or sub industries
where the growth rate ishovering around like 45%
annually until about 2030.
Having done the zero G trainingback in gosh maybe it was 2009
or so it was delightful, it wasthe easiest way to lose like 140
(01:53):
pounds I've ever, ever imagined.
So, like you know, you said weor I flew waitlists for seven
total minutes really on boardwith a few other like wannabe
astronauts who could think ofnothing better than escaping the
confines of planet Earth.
I will say it was a reallyinteresting experience.
(02:13):
It makes great fodder forcocktail parties, but, you know,
I think that it really kind ofjust speaks to man's quest to
perhaps be alone, especiallymaybe post-pandemic, and there
are a decent number of maybeunique characters who don't
really crave interaction withother human beings.
(02:36):
So is it something I would spend$10,000 to do again?
Not that I did in the firstplace, but these days, with
inflation, it's about $8,900.
No, is it a unique experience?
Yes, just being a child duringthe Reagan administration, you
have kind of always had thatfantasy.
And then with shows like ForAll Mankind on Apple TV.
For those of you who haven'twatched it, I highly recommend.
(02:57):
You know it's a great way tonerd out.
But is that what I want to putall of my money into?
Not really.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
I love that you said people who crave solitude, or
something similar, because myfirst thought here was, as I
think, of the subject of spacetourism Musk, Bezos, Branson.
Is there a correlation betweenyour description and the people
who first come to mind in thatspace?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So I'll say, confidence and ego there's
always.
You know, there's really noWild West, so what's the only
thing left?
We have?
The I don't want to say thegreat unknown, because we, you
know, obviously know a whole lotabout outer space.
But you know, it's really theplays into that question around
what is going to for some folks,one up the other.
(03:48):
I think there's a really uniqueniche here where there are some
people who are very, you know,scientific and they just want to
learn everything there is toknow, and then some other folks
who kind of just perhaps want tofeed their ego.
Of course I don't know thempersonally, so maybe there's
something else they want toshare with the crowd.
But I think one cool orinteresting thing that's kind of
an offshoot of this is there isa whole new growing
(04:10):
sub-industry for ultra high networth individuals, where there's
a new company that just came onover from Spain and they are
specializing in curating spacetourism for folks who pull in at
least a million dollars a year.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
You do a lot of family travel coverage and I
wanted to ask if your lens ontravel UX has changed
dramatically after having achild.
Ie kind of the challenges andtaxes families pay as they try
to go places and in fact youknow when you think about those
kinds of travel taxes and abouttravel UX.
(04:46):
You've also written a greatdeal about seniors and kind of
the UX around the life ofseniors, how they try to kind of
work through the world andtechnology in the world and also
disabled veterans.
You've kind of crafted a verydistinct eye when it comes to
how different people travelthrough the system differently.
(05:09):
Has your own eye kind of in themiddle of your own experiences?
Has that made you even moreaware than you already were?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I love all, as you've said,all things design and you know,
I think that accessibility playsinto that, you know, as a key
component.
So my father was a disabledveteran and you start to think
about, you know, access issuesin a way at a young age that you
don't necessarily think of.
Maybe most folks don't think ofuntil they face those concerns.
(05:39):
So where can I park?
If I need to drive into Bostonand go to a hospital with a very
large wheelchair accessible van, the answer is you can actually
valet park it at a nearby hotel.
So thank you to the travelindustry.
But in terms of that question,I think you just start to see
things a little differently andvalue hospitality even more so
(06:03):
than you might have before.
So with a child it's actually alot easier, and that's why I
have one, because you know hehas two hands.
There's two parents, we canjust each take a hand.
But maybe bathtubs that's onething you know that a lot of
hotels have done away withrecently, especially during the
pandemic.
They were doing all theserenovations and it takes a lot
longer to clean a bathtub thanit does a shower.
(06:24):
So when they put some capitalbehind upgrading bathrooms,
which a lot of people did withthe reduced occupancy, they got
rid of tubs.
What does that mean?
It means that you can'tnecessarily have a child there.
So I tend to think or gothrough the world in terms of
not what is inconvenience me orhow do I travel, because I don't
really have any handicaps buttrying to see the world through
(06:45):
other people's eyes.
And that's a really valuableway to not only live life but to
be a travel writer and have newexperiences and see the world
and still be inspired andengaged and kind of like amazed
by the way that other peoplehelp up or step up to the plate
to help you, even if it's not ina physical way and, you know,
maybe it's just like cultural interms of holding open a door.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
I'm glad to hear you recognize the operational cost
of families.
It's not something that I thinkmost travelers really give much
thought to.
More occupants means more water, more towels, more electricity,
more everything.
The other part of it that Ihave only recently really
learned much about myself is theinvestment side of creating a
(07:29):
room that's meant for a familyis significantly more.
Also, you mentioned thebathtubs.
It's about a third of the priceof a bathroom to do a stand up
shower.
It's a you know.
Here's real easy math.
It's half price if you only putone instead of two beds.
Right, Right, exactly, but youknow, when you start easy math,
it's half price if you only putone instead of two beds.
Right, right, exactly.
(07:49):
But you know, when you startdoing those things as an
investor, as an owner, buildinga hotel or renovating a hotel,
those 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 perclip room differences to make it
more family friendly, those addup very quickly when you're
multiplying that by 100 rooms ina hotel or more Not something
that usually gets a lot ofcoverage.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I appreciate, oh, yeah, I'm just kind of a data
nerd when it comes to that.
I mean, if you um I've talkedto a number of hoteliers about
this but housekeeping, um, youknow, for a room that has had
children in it just think aboutthe Cheerios on the floor you
know what I mean so it's goingto take the average housekeeper,
you know, 20 minutes longer toup to 20 minutes to clean that
(08:27):
room, versus another one for abusiness traveler who's really
not in the room very much at all.
So just the data is in thedetails for sure.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
So I'm going to shift a bit here as a travel business
writer really any kind ofwriter right now consumed by
what does Trump 2.0 mean?
What do you think the newadministration's potential
impact on tourism will be?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
I love this question because I think that there are
two very, very divergent pathshere.
Here, number one I think we'regoing to see, like we did, you
know, immediately after COVID, aresurgence in patriotic travel,
and what I mean by that is, youknow, to our national parks.
You know maybe less of a desireamong certain travelers to
(09:22):
spend money overseas and theinclination to discover more of
the United States.
We do have a big country, abroad country, with lots of
great experiences to be had, andthere's been a lot of
development, actually, when itcomes to direct flights and new
airlift to certain cooldestinations or destinations we
might not have necessarilyconsidered cool even 10 years
(09:42):
ago.
I'm thinking of, like Delta hasthe new hub in Salt Lake City,
which is a pretty cool thing.
And then, in terms of the otherway I think this is going to go
you know, I'm a member of a lotof groups for, like, female
travelers, and you know, I dothink that we're really going to
see the power of the purse here.
I think there are going to be alot of people who put their
(10:04):
money or invest their time off,because it's not only a monetary
investment, it's a timeinvestment.
Where do I want to explorewhere I feel welcomed and valued
.
So already I've seen a lot offolks on Girls Love Travel.
It's a very popular site forfemale, especially solo
travelers to go.
(10:25):
We've seen a huge resurgence inBoston, even in February, you
know, one of the coldest monthshere.
People want to go to some place.
Arguably, I would you know sayis maybe more liberal than some
other destinations.
And then you know there'sreally no lack of folks in
America spending money on traveloverseas, so I don't think
(10:49):
that's going to die off either.
Americans spend more money ontourism than most other
countries which we have lessvacation time, so you tend to
spend a little bit more at onepoint in time.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
I hope you're right that in the way that it means
more domestic spend of traveldollars by Americans.
I hope so because, first of all, foreign exchange rates are
still not going to be in favorof that for a while.
Right, it's still cheaper totake our dollars overseas right
now, probably will be through 25, maybe through 26.
But as long as travelingoverseas is at a discount,
(11:26):
americans will probably continueto do so.
My bigger concern with the wholesubject is that America first
is not a very welcomingmarketing slogan to the rest of
the world.
As much as we spend, we are ina trade deficit of biblical
proportions.
Right, what we send overseas towhat people bring here.
(11:47):
If you compare it back to 19,the very end of Trump 1.0, it's
a $50 billion delta.
Right, we are taking our moneyoverseas and people are not
coming back nearly in aproportionate manner.
That really, for our domestictravel industry, needs to change
and even if some of the actionsthat the administration is
(12:09):
going to move forward with, themessage overseas is we don't
want you, and I think that'sreally terrible for the domestic
business.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
You know, I have been reallyblessed in so many ways to have
made friends in many differentcountries who come from
different cultures andbackgrounds.
I think they do realize thatAmerica is a diverse place when
it comes to perspective and manyother things, but I will say
(12:38):
that a lot of those folks docome from countries where the
economy isn't as strong as ours,and so for them to come here
it's really often a once in alifetime experience that they
potentially will put off atleast for the next four years,
if not more.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Just recently, the Star Spangled Banner was booed
at an NBA game in Canada.
It may have happened at an NHLgame as well, and it's
absolutely unnecessary in mymind to create ill will with our
neighbors.
You know why make ourselveshated.
We can achieve these same goalswithout fostering hatred on on
(13:14):
our longest border, or anywherefor that matter and, yeah,
anywhere.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I mean there having been 65 or so countries and
whatnot.
Um, you know, I this goes backseveral years, but, um, I
thought I had lost somethinglike a travel document in a
country where I don't speakSpanish, unfortunately.
I wish I did.
But the kindness that was shownto me, for people, or by people
(13:41):
who didn't even know me just onthe street, really stuck with
me.
I remember their expressions,them trying to help, and that
exists everywhere.
It exists here as well.
So, for anyone who's listening,I try to believe in the good
because of what I've been ableto experience, and that's not
(14:02):
necessarily like your high-endhotel.
It's the people that you meet,the food you eat, the
connections that you make, nodoubt, and it's the dollars they
you meet, the food you eat, theconnections that you make, no
doubt, and it's the dollars theybring.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Canada was the top source of international visits
to the US last year with 20million visits, and a lot of
that was commercial trafficright Trucking, shipping, day
trips, stuff like that.
But a 10% reduction in Canadiantravel would be 2 million fewer
visits, 2 billion lost inspending, 14,000 job losses.
(14:31):
These are from US TravelAssociation.
It adds up really quickly and Isure hope that whatever ill
will we're creating doesn't last.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Agreed A thousand percent.
When I was a kid we didn't have, you know, too many resources
but we used to summer and at abeach in New Hampshire and there
were a lot of Canadian touristsand you know I always remember
connecting with them and I knowsomeone at the beginning of this
podcast mentioned Bluey.
There is a lovely episodecalled camping, where they do
(15:05):
not speak the same language butwhen you talk about travel,
adventure, family, at the endthey do speak the same language
and they make that connection.
So hopefully the next fouryears aren't quite as long as we
might think they are.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Carly, you wrote something recently for the Rob
Report about secret luxuryhotels existing inside
properties that are alreadythere.
It's like there was a hotel andnow there's another hotel
inside of it.
But after I read it I was youknow my first thought was part
of this is clever marketingusing existing properties.
But then again, the entireworld of travel is about levels
(15:45):
and sub-brands and rooms behindother rooms.
What do you think of this trendand do you think we're going to
start seeing more and more ofit across not just hotels but
all of travel?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I don't anticipate seeing this.
No, I think it works, for maybelike your three and your
four-star together, maybe likeyour three and your four star
together.
And you know, there are a fewproperties from some of the
bigger brands, like Marriott,where they've been able to
capitalize on their existingfootprint by building like three
separate brands with separatehotel towers, you know, next to
each other and that works finefor like overflow and whatnot.
(16:19):
Maybe in a place like Vegas itworks okay.
You know I have stayed at SteveWynn's place, the Wynn Hotel
here in Boston.
It's called Encore and that waskind of a strange experience.
I'm not really a big fan ofliterally looking down on people
who don't have the same colortowel as me.
Some people are kind of intothat thing.
But I think that if you're, youknow, going to stay at a
(16:40):
five-star hotel, you just wantto stay at a five-star hotel.
You just want to stay at afive-star hotel.
You don't want to mingle withother folks who might be there
sure, let's the riffraff, shallwe say it's just a five-star
experience should be a badexperience.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
It's just yes, exactly it.
There's also just a like.
There's a whiff of severance toit, right.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Oh, it's this one property, but then we have this
one part of it, that we're allpart of the same thing, but
there's one part that's living acompletely different existence
than the other.
It's like whoa, that's freaky.
We have yet to see theRitz-Carlton Courtyard share
platform Totally no-transcriptthat.
(17:46):
But let's think about it for asecond here.
I mean I can't think of like,especially with airlines.
I can't think of a morestratified kind of unbundled
experience than going throughthe airline purchasing routine.
So I don't think it's sofar-fetched.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
In the back of the plane, the emergency masks.
They only have two per row ofthree.
In the back of the plane.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
the emergency masks, they only have two per row of
three.
See, it's easy Once you go downthis road.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
I'm in asset management.
Now I can value engineeranything.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Oh my gosh, I don't know if you guys saw this is
going back a ways, but I coveredthe first flight out of the
direct flight out of Boston onEmirates and that was for a
press thing and I was supposedto be put in first class and
they, I got to the airport andthat was so not the case.
So I ended up being in steerageand gosh, what a different
experience.
So they gave me this tour offirst class and like okay, so
(18:37):
this is what you're not doing.
And then here you are in a rowof five with a broken seat for
14 hours, like well, you knowwhat I just got?
The story that no otherjournalist has.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Mm, hmm, you know, the safeguard against this is,
you know, Jeff, as you and Iwere talking about with the
report.
I think you mentioned thatthere's an economics component
to this too.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
right, One hotel you get the value of two hotels with
the efficiencies of a singlehotel.
You only need one back of houseright.
You get the value of two hotelswith the efficiencies of a
single hotel.
You only need one back of houseright, one employee locker room
, one employee cafeteria, onelarge utilities room that can
service the whole building.
You know the heat doesn't needto be different for a luxury
hotel or an economy hotel.
You still got to have heat,fewer permits to the building,
(19:21):
greater cross-disciplineefficiency.
There's a million things youcan do.
So I mean, in some ways theseare brilliant models.
I think in part the ones thatI've seen most successfully run.
They feel very different.
Though you don't walk into alobby and choose this elevator
for the luxury side and thiselevator for the convention, you
(19:41):
enter in a different place.
You have a different experienceon the luxury side of the
building altogether.
It just happens to be going toa few floors.
You also have so much mixed useand residential mixed into hotel
complexes anymore that it'svery simple to think that floors
10 through 30 are the hotel, 30to 50 are luxury condos.
(20:07):
I think that's so normal tooRight, that squeezing in a
little different kind of hotelin the middle is probably not
that hard or different foranybody to operate under.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I think you really need to have some specific
features or upsells oradvantages to do that and have
it make sense for that five-starconsumer.
But yes, on the operations sideyou have your training ground.
You have all these sharedefficiencies and for certain
properties that have this reallyprime real estate that's like
(20:38):
ocean-facing, and you're kind ofmaxed out on where you can
build.
I mean, why not?
As long as you just build it ontop, you can just keep going
higher.
And why not?
As long as you just build it ontop, you can just keep going
higher and higher.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
It's time for the lightning round.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yay.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Wellness is huge for hotels and travel brands.
Duh, of course.
So everybody's talking about it, everybody wants a piece of it,
everybody wants to sell it totheir consumers.
What do you think is next onthe horizon for really any
travel provider as far aswellness goes?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Oh sure, I love this.
So what I'm seeing a lot of isthis focus on sleep.
And you know I get a bunch ofreleases and I'm lucky enough to
get to go to some properties,but some of the properties are
designed with sleep in mind, andnot only when it comes to these
.
You know, like double panelwalls with great sheetrock and
(21:31):
the blackout shades, but we'retalking the whole like soup to
nuts experience, you know, witharomatherapy and whatnot and
soothing sounds and these reallywonderful high end mattresses.
You know that are handmade inConnecticut and you know they're
not imported from overseas andwhatnot.
But I think that sleep tourismis definitely one we're going to
see continue trending.
(21:51):
I actually have been readingabout I think it's called
divorce, sleep, and this is onething that I love.
This is my favorite takeawayfrom going to Scandinavia.
Not sure if you've ever been,but what they do is they have
two sets of, instead of having abig king comforter, they have
two twins that they put side byside and everyone gets to have
(22:14):
their own little piece of theblanket, and that's how they
have prevented, you know, highdivorce rates for decades.
So it's about time we kind ofgot on that bandwagon.
You know, at one point you andI had talked a little bit about
a rise in elopement tourism andI do think that's another thing
that we might see, because nowthat I have probably just
(22:37):
revealed my age to you tellingyou I grew up during the Reagan
administration you know, a lotof the younger folks who are
getting engaged now are lookingat $100,000 weddings and, yes, I
live in Boston, so that'sprobably higher than you know.
You're going right in Nebraskabut a lot of them are talking
about just eloping and not evenhaving you know that destination
(22:58):
wedding, but just going on agreat trip with just each other,
having a couple of randomwitnesses wherever they end up
and, um, having a party whenthey get home.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
A couple more here for you.
What's the most Massachusettsthing about you?
You were Massachusetts born andraised, is that correct?
Yes A plenty New Englander.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Okay, so I'm pretty thrifty, um, and I love clipping
coupons on and no, micro marketbasket doesn't have an app.
Um, so I love market basket.
That is a local um grocer hereand they have this hot like die
hard following and it mostpeople across the country will
know about people of walmart.
(23:39):
It's like a feed on on facebook, but there's also one called
people of Market Basket.
That's pretty Massachusetts ofme.
I don't think I have an accent,but my son, you know who's
younger, definitely doesn't noclue where this came from.
And it's so cute to hear alittle kid, you know, when he
says Wicked for the first time,you're like wow, where did you
(24:00):
pick that up?
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Is Treehouse, the greatest brewery on the East
Coast?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
you pick that up, is treehouse the greatest brewery
on the east coast?
What a great question.
Um, sadly, I haven't been totreehouse um yes is the answer
yes, okay, yes, I'll take yourword for it.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Put it on I think we answered what is the least
massachusetts thing about younow?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I don't like duncan donuts the donuts are bad.
The coffee yeah, it's overrated, I don't like.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Dunkin' Donuts.
The donuts are bad.
The coffee yeah, it's overrated, I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Can we also talk about the quote unquote rebrand,
which is the biggest waste ofmillions of dollars that I've
ever seen?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Where they just simply go to Dunkin'.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Okay, okay, fair Well .
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Dunkin's going for a more health conscious future.
You know Sure Well.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Duncan's going for a more health conscious future,
you know.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Sure what I think when I walk in Sure.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Me too.
What would you say is the mostinteresting luxury experience
you've had in recent memory?
Maybe it doesn't have tonecessarily be the best or the
worst, but what was somethingthat was kind of unexpected.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Okay, so one of my most memorable is a place called
Puyawapi and it's a resortthat's at seemingly the end of
the earth in Patagonia, in Chile, and I was very excited to go
there because they don't havewell, they have Wi-Fi, sparingly
, at a shared terminal, and youhave to take a flight to the
(25:24):
middle of nowhere and then youget into a rented car and you
travel for four hours and thenyou get on a speedboat to get to
this hotel and it feels legitlike you're going to the Batcave
and it's gorgeous.
There are mountain peaks,there's little streams and you
know they raise salmon there andit's super quiet and I was
(25:46):
pretty pumped to.
You know, just get away from itall.
And then I went to the sharedterminal because who can not
check their email for a day, aspreviously discussed, and I'm
like you know this would be agreat in my mind, like this
would be a great place for themost famous person on earth to
escape to, and that person atthe time was Tom Brady.
And so I go to this sharedterminal and I go to check my
(26:11):
email and I, for some reason, Iwent to the search bar and the
last search thing was Tom Brady,I'm like this guy can't escape.
He really can't, even at theends of the earth.
You know, people in SouthAmerica know him because of who
he was married to at the timeand you know it's really cool to
be able to, in my opinion,travel anonymously, live your
best life and really not havepeople watching you.
(26:33):
In case you have, maybe thatsecond glass of wine.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Great advice, Carly.
Thank you so much for being onno Show.
We'd love to have you againsometime.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Thanks, I appreciate the time.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
And we'll talk to you soon.
Hi everybody.
It's no Show, I'm Matt.
That's Jeff.
We're always here hosting on astunningly regular basis.
Pulitzer Prize winner CarlyThornell delivers insightful
stories to readers of Skiff,travel and Leisure, afar, the
Rob Report, usa Today, businessInsider, yahoo, the Boston Globe
and many, many others.
Her current beats include allthings sustainability, design,
(00:31):
adventure, health and travel,and the myriad ways those
subjects connect with technologyand business.
She's been to 65-plus countriesand islands.
She's done zero-G astronauttraining.
As a features reporter at theBoston Herald, she flew
weightless for seven minutes.
She is a cultural chronicler,an advocate of veterans who've
served our country, aconnoisseur of libations, a
(00:52):
bluey expert straight out ofBoston.
Welcome, carly Thornell.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Thank you so much for that rousing introduction.
I hope I live up to theexpectations here.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
You already are.
You already are.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
So let's talk about astronauts.
You've written about escapistretreats of all sorts, from tree
houses to luxury resorts tospace tourism.
Space tourism is not a new idea, but it's actually happening
and it draws rich guys andstartups.
Just thinking about all theplaces they could go that no
(01:27):
one's ever been.
Where is it going?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
So you know, if you look at I love to nerd out and
kind of look at all things liketravel Kegar.
So this is one of thoseindustries or sub industries
where the growth rate ishovering around like 45%
annually until about 2030.
Having done the zero G trainingback in gosh maybe it was 2009
or so it was delightful, it wasthe easiest way to lose like 140
(01:53):
pounds I've ever, ever imagined.
So, like you know, you said weor I flew waitlists for seven
total minutes really on boardwith a few other like wannabe
astronauts who could think ofnothing better than escaping the
confines of planet Earth.
I will say it was a reallyinteresting experience.
(02:13):
It makes great fodder forcocktail parties, but, you know,
I think that it really kind ofjust speaks to man's quest to
perhaps be alone, especiallymaybe post-pandemic, and there
are a decent number of maybeunique characters who don't
really crave interaction withother human beings.
(02:36):
So is it something I would spend$10,000 to do again?
Not that I did in the firstplace, but these days, with
inflation, it's about $8,900.
No, is it a unique experience?
Yes, just being a child duringthe Reagan administration, you
have kind of always had thatfantasy.
And then with shows like ForAll Mankind on Apple TV.
For those of you who haven'twatched it, I highly recommend.
(02:57):
You know it's a great way tonerd out.
But is that what I want to putall of my money into?
Not really.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
I love that you said people who crave solitude, or
something similar, because myfirst thought here was, as I
think, of the subject of spacetourism Musk, Bezos, Branson.
Is there a correlation betweenyour description and the people
who first come to mind in thatspace?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So I'll say, confidence and ego there's
always.
You know, there's really noWild West, so what's the only
thing left?
We have?
The I don't want to say thegreat unknown, because we, you
know, obviously know a whole lotabout outer space.
But you know, it's really theplays into that question around
what is going to for some folks,one up the other.
(03:48):
I think there's a really uniqueniche here where there are some
people who are very, you know,scientific and they just want to
learn everything there is toknow, and then some other folks
who kind of just perhaps want tofeed their ego.
Of course I don't know thempersonally, so maybe there's
something else they want toshare with the crowd.
But I think one cool orinteresting thing that's kind of
an offshoot of this is there isa whole new growing
(04:10):
sub-industry for ultra high networth individuals, where there's
a new company that just came onover from Spain and they are
specializing in curating spacetourism for folks who pull in at
least a million dollars a year.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
You do a lot of family travel coverage and I
wanted to ask if your lens ontravel UX has changed
dramatically after having achild.
Ie kind of the challenges andtaxes families pay as they try
to go places and in fact youknow when you think about those
kinds of travel taxes and abouttravel UX.
(04:46):
You've also written a greatdeal about seniors and kind of
the UX around the life ofseniors, how they try to kind of
work through the world andtechnology in the world and also
disabled veterans.
You've kind of crafted a verydistinct eye when it comes to
how different people travelthrough the system differently.
(05:09):
Has your own eye kind of in themiddle of your own experiences?
Has that made you even moreaware than you already were?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I love all, as you've said,all things design and you know,
I think that accessibility playsinto that, you know, as a key
component.
So my father was a disabledveteran and you start to think
about, you know, access issuesin a way at a young age that you
don't necessarily think of.
Maybe most folks don't think ofuntil they face those concerns.
(05:39):
So where can I park?
If I need to drive into Bostonand go to a hospital with a very
large wheelchair accessible van, the answer is you can actually
valet park it at a nearby hotel.
So thank you to the travelindustry.
But in terms of that question,I think you just start to see
things a little differently andvalue hospitality even more so
(06:03):
than you might have before.
So with a child it's actually alot easier, and that's why I
have one, because you know hehas two hands.
There's two parents, we canjust each take a hand.
But maybe bathtubs that's onething you know that a lot of
hotels have done away withrecently, especially during the
pandemic.
They were doing all theserenovations and it takes a lot
longer to clean a bathtub thanit does a shower.
(06:24):
So when they put some capitalbehind upgrading bathrooms,
which a lot of people did withthe reduced occupancy, they got
rid of tubs.
What does that mean?
It means that you can'tnecessarily have a child there.
So I tend to think or gothrough the world in terms of
not what is inconvenience me orhow do I travel, because I don't
really have any handicaps buttrying to see the world through
(06:45):
other people's eyes.
And that's a really valuableway to not only live life but to
be a travel writer and have newexperiences and see the world
and still be inspired andengaged and kind of like amazed
by the way that other peoplehelp up or step up to the plate
to help you, even if it's not ina physical way and, you know,
maybe it's just like cultural interms of holding open a door.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
I'm glad to hear you recognize the operational cost
of families.
It's not something that I thinkmost travelers really give much
thought to.
More occupants means more water, more towels, more electricity,
more everything.
The other part of it that Ihave only recently really
learned much about myself is theinvestment side of creating a
(07:29):
room that's meant for a familyis significantly more.
Also, you mentioned thebathtubs.
It's about a third of the priceof a bathroom to do a stand up
shower.
It's a you know.
Here's real easy math.
It's half price if you only putone instead of two beds.
Right, Right, exactly, but youknow, when you start easy math,
it's half price if you only putone instead of two beds.
Right, right, exactly.
(07:49):
But you know, when you startdoing those things as an
investor, as an owner, buildinga hotel or renovating a hotel,
those 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 perclip room differences to make it
more family friendly, those addup very quickly when you're
multiplying that by 100 rooms ina hotel or more Not something
that usually gets a lot ofcoverage.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I appreciate, oh, yeah, I'm just kind of a data
nerd when it comes to that.
I mean, if you um I've talkedto a number of hoteliers about
this but housekeeping, um, youknow, for a room that has had
children in it just think aboutthe Cheerios on the floor you
know what I mean so it's goingto take the average housekeeper,
you know, 20 minutes longer toup to 20 minutes to clean that
(08:27):
room, versus another one for abusiness traveler who's really
not in the room very much at all.
So just the data is in thedetails for sure.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
So I'm going to shift a bit here as a travel business
writer really any kind ofwriter right now consumed by
what does Trump 2.0 mean?
What do you think the newadministration's potential
impact on tourism will be?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
I love this question because I think that there are
two very, very divergent pathshere.
Here, number one I think we'regoing to see, like we did, you
know, immediately after COVID, aresurgence in patriotic travel,
and what I mean by that is, youknow, to our national parks.
You know maybe less of a desireamong certain travelers to
(09:22):
spend money overseas and theinclination to discover more of
the United States.
We do have a big country, abroad country, with lots of
great experiences to be had, andthere's been a lot of
development, actually, when itcomes to direct flights and new
airlift to certain cooldestinations or destinations we
might not have necessarilyconsidered cool even 10 years
(09:42):
ago.
I'm thinking of, like Delta hasthe new hub in Salt Lake City,
which is a pretty cool thing.
And then, in terms of the otherway I think this is going to go
you know, I'm a member of a lotof groups for, like, female
travelers, and you know, I dothink that we're really going to
see the power of the purse here.
I think there are going to be alot of people who put their
(10:04):
money or invest their time off,because it's not only a monetary
investment, it's a timeinvestment.
Where do I want to explorewhere I feel welcomed and valued
.
So already I've seen a lot offolks on Girls Love Travel.
It's a very popular site forfemale, especially solo
travelers to go.
(10:25):
We've seen a huge resurgence inBoston, even in February, you
know, one of the coldest monthshere.
People want to go to some place.
Arguably, I would you know sayis maybe more liberal than some
other destinations.
And then you know there'sreally no lack of folks in
America spending money on traveloverseas, so I don't think
(10:49):
that's going to die off either.
Americans spend more money ontourism than most other
countries which we have lessvacation time, so you tend to
spend a little bit more at onepoint in time.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
I hope you're right that in the way that it means
more domestic spend of traveldollars by Americans.
I hope so because, first of all, foreign exchange rates are
still not going to be in favorof that for a while.
Right, it's still cheaper totake our dollars overseas right
now, probably will be through 25, maybe through 26.
But as long as travelingoverseas is at a discount,
(11:26):
americans will probably continueto do so.
My bigger concern with the wholesubject is that America first
is not a very welcomingmarketing slogan to the rest of
the world.
As much as we spend, we are ina trade deficit of biblical
proportions.
Right, what we send overseas towhat people bring here.
(11:47):
If you compare it back to 19,the very end of Trump 1.0, it's
a $50 billion delta.
Right, we are taking our moneyoverseas and people are not
coming back nearly in aproportionate manner.
That really, for our domestictravel industry, needs to change
and even if some of the actionsthat the administration is
(12:09):
going to move forward with, themessage overseas is we don't
want you, and I think that'sreally terrible for the domestic
business.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
You know, I have been reallyblessed in so many ways to have
made friends in many differentcountries who come from
different cultures andbackgrounds.
I think they do realize thatAmerica is a diverse place when
it comes to perspective and manyother things, but I will say
(12:38):
that a lot of those folks docome from countries where the
economy isn't as strong as ours,and so for them to come here
it's really often a once in alifetime experience that they
potentially will put off atleast for the next four years,
if not more.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Just recently, the Star Spangled Banner was booed
at an NBA game in Canada.
It may have happened at an NHLgame as well, and it's
absolutely unnecessary in mymind to create ill will with our
neighbors.
You know why make ourselveshated.
We can achieve these same goalswithout fostering hatred on on
(13:14):
our longest border, or anywherefor that matter and, yeah,
anywhere.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I mean there having been 65 or so countries and
whatnot.
Um, you know, I this goes backseveral years, but, um, I
thought I had lost somethinglike a travel document in a
country where I don't speakSpanish, unfortunately.
I wish I did.
But the kindness that was shownto me, for people, or by people
(13:41):
who didn't even know me just onthe street, really stuck with
me.
I remember their expressions,them trying to help, and that
exists everywhere.
It exists here as well.
So, for anyone who's listening,I try to believe in the good
because of what I've been ableto experience, and that's not
(14:02):
necessarily like your high-endhotel.
It's the people that you meet,the food you eat, the
connections that you make, nodoubt, and it's the dollars they
you meet, the food you eat, theconnections that you make, no
doubt, and it's the dollars theybring.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Canada was the top source of international visits
to the US last year with 20million visits, and a lot of
that was commercial trafficright Trucking, shipping, day
trips, stuff like that.
But a 10% reduction in Canadiantravel would be 2 million fewer
visits, 2 billion lost inspending, 14,000 job losses.
(14:31):
These are from US TravelAssociation.
It adds up really quickly and Isure hope that whatever ill
will we're creating doesn't last.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Agreed A thousand percent.
When I was a kid we didn't have, you know, too many resources
but we used to summer and at abeach in New Hampshire and there
were a lot of Canadian touristsand you know I always remember
connecting with them and I knowsomeone at the beginning of this
podcast mentioned Bluey.
There is a lovely episodecalled camping, where they do
(15:05):
not speak the same language butwhen you talk about travel,
adventure, family, at the endthey do speak the same language
and they make that connection.
So hopefully the next fouryears aren't quite as long as we
might think they are.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Carly, you wrote something recently for the Rob
Report about secret luxuryhotels existing inside
properties that are alreadythere.
It's like there was a hotel andnow there's another hotel
inside of it.
But after I read it I was youknow my first thought was part
of this is clever marketingusing existing properties.
But then again, the entireworld of travel is about levels
(15:45):
and sub-brands and rooms behindother rooms.
What do you think of this trendand do you think we're going to
start seeing more and more ofit across not just hotels but
all of travel?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I don't anticipate seeing this.
No, I think it works, for maybelike your three and your
four-star together, maybe likeyour three and your four star
together.
And you know, there are a fewproperties from some of the
bigger brands, like Marriott,where they've been able to
capitalize on their existingfootprint by building like three
separate brands with separatehotel towers, you know, next to
each other and that works finefor like overflow and whatnot.
(16:19):
Maybe in a place like Vegas itworks okay.
You know I have stayed at SteveWynn's place, the Wynn Hotel
here in Boston.
It's called Encore and that waskind of a strange experience.
I'm not really a big fan ofliterally looking down on people
who don't have the same colortowel as me.
Some people are kind of intothat thing.
But I think that if you're, youknow, going to stay at a
(16:40):
five-star hotel, you just wantto stay at a five-star hotel.
You just want to stay at afive-star hotel.
You don't want to mingle withother folks who might be there
sure, let's the riffraff, shallwe say it's just a five-star
experience should be a badexperience.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
It's just yes, exactly it.
There's also just a like.
There's a whiff of severance toit, right.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Oh, it's this one property, but then we have this
one part of it, that we're allpart of the same thing, but
there's one part that's living acompletely different existence
than the other.
It's like whoa, that's freaky.
We have yet to see theRitz-Carlton Courtyard share
platform Totally no-transcriptthat.
(17:46):
But let's think about it for asecond here.
I mean I can't think of like,especially with airlines.
I can't think of a morestratified kind of unbundled
experience than going throughthe airline purchasing routine.
So I don't think it's sofar-fetched.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
In the back of the plane, the emergency masks.
They only have two per row ofthree.
In the back of the plane.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
the emergency masks, they only have two per row of
three.
See, it's easy Once you go downthis road.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
I'm in asset management.
Now I can value engineeranything.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Oh my gosh, I don't know if you guys saw this is
going back a ways, but I coveredthe first flight out of the
direct flight out of Boston onEmirates and that was for a
press thing and I was supposedto be put in first class and
they, I got to the airport andthat was so not the case.
So I ended up being in steerageand gosh, what a different
experience.
So they gave me this tour offirst class and like okay, so
(18:37):
this is what you're not doing.
And then here you are in a rowof five with a broken seat for
14 hours, like well, you knowwhat I just got?
The story that no otherjournalist has.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Mm, hmm, you know, the safeguard against this is,
you know, Jeff, as you and Iwere talking about with the
report.
I think you mentioned thatthere's an economics component
to this too.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
right, One hotel you get the value of two hotels with
the efficiencies of a singlehotel.
You only need one back of houseright.
You get the value of two hotelswith the efficiencies of a
single hotel.
You only need one back of houseright, one employee locker room
, one employee cafeteria, onelarge utilities room that can
service the whole building.
You know the heat doesn't needto be different for a luxury
hotel or an economy hotel.
You still got to have heat,fewer permits to the building,
(19:21):
greater cross-disciplineefficiency.
There's a million things youcan do.
So I mean, in some ways theseare brilliant models.
I think in part the ones thatI've seen most successfully run.
They feel very different.
Though you don't walk into alobby and choose this elevator
for the luxury side and thiselevator for the convention, you
(19:41):
enter in a different place.
You have a different experienceon the luxury side of the
building altogether.
It just happens to be going toa few floors.
You also have so much mixed useand residential mixed into hotel
complexes anymore that it'svery simple to think that floors
10 through 30 are the hotel, 30to 50 are luxury condos.
(20:07):
I think that's so normal tooRight, that squeezing in a
little different kind of hotelin the middle is probably not
that hard or different foranybody to operate under.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I think you really need to have some specific
features or upsells oradvantages to do that and have
it make sense for that five-starconsumer.
But yes, on the operations sideyou have your training ground.
You have all these sharedefficiencies and for certain
properties that have this reallyprime real estate that's like
(20:38):
ocean-facing, and you're kind ofmaxed out on where you can
build.
I mean, why not?
As long as you just build it ontop, you can just keep going
higher.
And why not?
As long as you just build it ontop, you can just keep going
higher and higher.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
It's time for the lightning round.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yay.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Wellness is huge for hotels and travel brands.
Duh, of course.
So everybody's talking about it, everybody wants a piece of it,
everybody wants to sell it totheir consumers.
What do you think is next onthe horizon for really any
travel provider as far aswellness goes?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Oh sure, I love this.
So what I'm seeing a lot of isthis focus on sleep.
And you know I get a bunch ofreleases and I'm lucky enough to
get to go to some properties,but some of the properties are
designed with sleep in mind, andnot only when it comes to these
.
You know, like double panelwalls with great sheetrock and
(21:31):
the blackout shades, but we'retalking the whole like soup to
nuts experience, you know, witharomatherapy and whatnot and
soothing sounds and these reallywonderful high end mattresses.
You know that are handmade inConnecticut and you know they're
not imported from overseas andwhatnot.
But I think that sleep tourismis definitely one we're going to
see continue trending.
(21:51):
I actually have been readingabout I think it's called
divorce, sleep, and this is onething that I love.
This is my favorite takeawayfrom going to Scandinavia.
Not sure if you've ever been,but what they do is they have
two sets of, instead of having abig king comforter, they have
two twins that they put side byside and everyone gets to have
(22:14):
their own little piece of theblanket, and that's how they
have prevented, you know, highdivorce rates for decades.
So it's about time we kind ofgot on that bandwagon.
You know, at one point you andI had talked a little bit about
a rise in elopement tourism andI do think that's another thing
that we might see, because nowthat I have probably just
(22:37):
revealed my age to you tellingyou I grew up during the Reagan
administration you know, a lotof the younger folks who are
getting engaged now are lookingat $100,000 weddings and, yes, I
live in Boston, so that'sprobably higher than you know.
You're going right in Nebraskabut a lot of them are talking
about just eloping and not evenhaving you know that destination
(22:58):
wedding, but just going on agreat trip with just each other,
having a couple of randomwitnesses wherever they end up
and, um, having a party whenthey get home.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
A couple more here for you.
What's the most Massachusettsthing about you?
You were Massachusetts born andraised, is that correct?
Yes A plenty New Englander.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Okay, so I'm pretty thrifty, um, and I love clipping
coupons on and no, micro marketbasket doesn't have an app.
Um, so I love market basket.
That is a local um grocer hereand they have this hot like die
hard following and it mostpeople across the country will
know about people of walmart.
(23:39):
It's like a feed on on facebook, but there's also one called
people of Market Basket.
That's pretty Massachusetts ofme.
I don't think I have an accent,but my son, you know who's
younger, definitely doesn't noclue where this came from.
And it's so cute to hear alittle kid, you know, when he
says Wicked for the first time,you're like wow, where did you
(24:00):
pick that up?
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Is Treehouse, the greatest brewery on the East
Coast?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
you pick that up, is treehouse the greatest brewery
on the east coast?
What a great question.
Um, sadly, I haven't been totreehouse um yes is the answer
yes, okay, yes, I'll take yourword for it.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Put it on I think we answered what is the least
massachusetts thing about younow?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I don't like duncan donuts the donuts are bad.
The coffee yeah, it's overrated, I don't like.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Dunkin' Donuts.
The donuts are bad.
The coffee yeah, it's overrated, I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Can we also talk about the quote unquote rebrand,
which is the biggest waste ofmillions of dollars that I've
ever seen?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Where they just simply go to Dunkin'.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Okay, okay, fair Well .
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Dunkin's going for a more health conscious future.
You know Sure Well.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Duncan's going for a more health conscious future,
you know.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Sure what I think when I walk in Sure.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Me too.
What would you say is the mostinteresting luxury experience
you've had in recent memory?
Maybe it doesn't have tonecessarily be the best or the
worst, but what was somethingthat was kind of unexpected.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Okay, so one of my most memorable is a place called
Puyawapi and it's a resortthat's at seemingly the end of
the earth in Patagonia, in Chile, and I was very excited to go
there because they don't havewell, they have Wi-Fi, sparingly
, at a shared terminal, and youhave to take a flight to the
(25:24):
middle of nowhere and then youget into a rented car and you
travel for four hours and thenyou get on a speedboat to get to
this hotel and it feels legitlike you're going to the Batcave
and it's gorgeous.
There are mountain peaks,there's little streams and you
know they raise salmon there andit's super quiet and I was
(25:46):
pretty pumped to.
You know, just get away from itall.
And then I went to the sharedterminal because who can not
check their email for a day, aspreviously discussed, and I'm
like you know this would be agreat in my mind, like this
would be a great place for themost famous person on earth to
escape to, and that person atthe time was Tom Brady.
And so I go to this sharedterminal and I go to check my
(26:11):
email and I, for some reason, Iwent to the search bar and the
last search thing was Tom Brady,I'm like this guy can't escape.
He really can't, even at theends of the earth.
You know, people in SouthAmerica know him because of who
he was married to at the timeand you know it's really cool to
be able to, in my opinion,travel anonymously, live your
best life and really not havepeople watching you.
(26:33):
In case you have, maybe thatsecond glass of wine.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Great advice, Carly.
Thank you so much for being onno Show.
We'd love to have you againsometime.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Thanks, I appreciate the time.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
And we'll talk to you soon.
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