July 22, 2025 • 29 mins
Lyon Porter is one of the most talked-about hoteliers of our time. Alongside co-founder and partner Jersey Banks, he transformed a five-room Brooklyn townhouse into the first Urban Cowboy.
The industry, and the media, pay close attention to the brand, which now spokes into hotel properties in the Catskills, Nashville, and the newest location, a Gilded Age Denver mansion, which opened within the last year.
We talk about the origins of Urban Cowboy, catching cities and regions at the right time, the unique method of sourcing items for each property, how big hospitality chases (and fails to catch) boutique authenticity, and what's next for the brand.
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Episode Transcript
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Matt Brown (00:07):
Hi everybody, it's no Show with Matt Brown and Jeff
Borman.
Lion Porter is one of the mosttalked about hoteliers of our
time.
His well-known backstory is averitable folktale son of Shaker
Heights, hockey phenom, realestate wunderkind and, of course
, alongside co-founder andpartner Jersey Banks, he
(00:27):
transformed a five-room Brooklyntownhouse into the very first
urban cowboy.
The aesthetic they've createdis a symphony of textures, found
objects and vibes that make youfeel something when you walk
through the door, and it is aconcept that other hotels aspire
to but rarely meet.
The industry and the media payclose attention to this brand,
(00:50):
which now spokes into hotelproperties in the Catskills,
nashville and the newestlocation, a Gilded Age Denver
mansion, opened within the lastyear, and he's also launched
Cowboy Creative, his personaldesign studio, where the urban
cowboy magic can apply tococktail bars, bowling alleys,
lofts and tree houses from Sea,the Shining Sea.
(01:10):
His Instagram and his creativeportfolio are the stuff dreams
are made of.
Lion Porter, welcome to no Show.
Lyon Porter (01:19):
Well thank you.
That was probably the mostbeautiful introduction I've ever
had on one of these things, soappreciate the love.
I'll try to live up to it inthe next little bit.
Jeff Borman (01:32):
Next time you're introduced or you need a bio,
you're welcome to just get theAI transcript of this.
It's all yours now.
Lyon Porter (01:42):
Let's go.
I got my new bio for my Rayaprofile.
Jeff Borman (01:48):
When you created Urban Cowboy, what specifically
was missing in the marketplacethat you thought you could fill?
Well, I think.
Lyon Porter (01:56):
For me it was less the marketplace, because I had
Jersey and I always talk aboutbeing accidental hoteliers.
What was missing for me was athird space in New York City
where we lived.
I was, at the time, a realestate broker.
(02:16):
I also had a private driver andwas wearing, you know,
three-piece suits.
I was.
I sold a few billion dollars ofthe real estate on the
residential side in New Yorkafter I played hockey, and for
me, at that moment in my life, Iwas going through a divorce, I
was 32 years old and I wasmissing.
(02:39):
You know, especially in NewYork it's like bars, restaurants
, clubs, hotels, like I wasmissing that kind of clubhouse.
That third space and this is alot, this is before the word and
term third space was a thing,right, I designed my dream
townhouse before I got divorced,and so it was my first time
designing for myself.
(02:59):
I designed a lot of real estateprojects to make them more
sellable, but I didn't think ofmyself as an artist or a
designer or creative, and so itwasn't a gap in the market, it
was a gap in my life.
And this thing, this townhousein the second stop off the L in
Lorimer Street stop inWilliamsburg, brooklyn magically
(03:23):
coalesced around a few things.
One was cowboy was aboutfreedom.
The idea of a cowboy inAmericana was always about
freedom, right?
And so we called Urban Cowboy.
I didn't think anyone wouldshow up, up, and and it was our
(03:48):
five room bed and breakfast inBrooklyn.
But this is before Brooklyn wasa brand and we were in
Williamsburg and we were thesecond quote unquote hotel in
Williamsburg.
We weren't a hotel, we were atownhouse with five rooms and we
lived on the ground floor andthen, you know, hosted everyone.
And so Jersey at the time was inbetween apartments.
We were dating and I like, hey,you airbnb'd your apartment,
you can run a hotel.
(04:08):
And she's like, I'm like, howhard could it be?
And literally, you know, firsttime designing, first time being
an artist.
You know, we, we opened it upwithout an instagram.
The first people came andstayed and they're like well,
how do we pay you?
And we're like, do you cash?
Like we like it was thatremedial of hot.
So for us it wasn't a hole inthe market and we had no idea
(04:30):
what we were doing.
But then we started to play withthis idea of kind of like if
you have the key to the house,meaning the front door code,
you're, you're in, and it waslike basically a private members
club third space with nomembership dues, open bar, sauna
, hot tub, log cabin in the back, and we were like the second
(04:53):
quote-unquote hotel in brooklynand that's when brooklyn took
off as a brand.
We had people from japan, fromsweden, movie stars.
All of a sudden we would get ahundred people or 200 people
applying to stay for there forthe weekend and Jersey would say
, like you know, please apply,what's your Instagram?
And so people had to apply tostay and we would vet like, okay
(05:14):
, what would be the coolest youknow people to have in our house
?
And we lived there and she'dput out breakfast and we'd make
them free drinks and we hadprivate chefs.
So we had a butler and we hadjust, you know, if we had a 50
or 100 person party and hedidn't like it, it's like no
problem, go to the wife, noproblem, here's a refund.
We had this kind of veryirreverent sensibility about it,
like you're entering into ourlife and people seem to really
(05:36):
like it.
And this is also when Instagramwas instant and this really
amazing photographer named JaredChambers if you want to look
him up on the gram came and hecalled right before and he goes
I want $10,000 and I want thewhole house for a week and I'll
post you on Instagram.
And this is before the wordinfluencer was a thing and I was
(05:57):
like we just opened, we have nomoney, you can stay in the
cabin for the weekend.
He's like I'll be theretomorrow and like on the way
there, I was like Jersey.
Should we like get an Instagram?
Do you think that'd be a goodidea?
You know this is 2014.
He posted a beautiful pictureof someone in a clawfoot tub
which became a signature rightand the rest is kind of history.
(06:18):
Everyone showed up, the worldshowed up, every magazine in the
world showed up.
We did a shoot with name it, wedid it and so it was time and
place and us and if we got, youknow, it's like biracial couple
in Brooklyn having fun, throwingparties, hosting people from
all over the world, and themedia just was like, oh my god,
(06:40):
like if we got called hipstersone more time, like the hipster
hotel, the most Instagrammablehotel, like all this kind of
happened organically and myfirst time again designing for
myself, and it was a passionproject and it exploded.
It was a place to meet peopleand our friend group was always
there.
We called it couch theory Ifyou sat on our couch, something
(07:03):
would happen, and it always did.
And so you have theseinternational people and locals
and New Yorkers and people fromall over the world staying.
But you'd also have our friendsand you know whether it was
just you know us makingcocktails or cooking dinner or
whatever, you were invited intoour home and that was the first
Romakawi.
That was Brooklyn.
That's how we built a brandwith zero marketing dollars that
(07:25):
exploded and that's kind of theorigin story of what it filled
in my life not necessarily themarket.
Matt Brown (07:32):
Urban Cowboy hotels have been described as
theatrical, experiential,cinematic.
When you were building out thefirst Brooklyn property and I'm
sure there were many trips, Iwonder what your over under was
to Crest Hardware.
Rest in peace during that time.
As you were kind of fixing thisplace up and then later, when
(07:52):
you were kind of scaling up inNashville, did you know that you
wanted to create something withthis kind of heightened sense
of theater?
Did you know from the beginningthat this was going to be the
brand aesthetic, or did thatkind of evolve as the train was
moving?
Lyon Porter (08:12):
I just designed my dream house in Brooklyn.
It was fully designed before Idecided it was going to be bed
and breakfast.
So all of our design imperativeis just about what speaks to me
and I always tell people from adesign sensibility that I'm a
collage artist.
I go out and it drives everyoneinsane and I've done projects
with very corporate-mindedpeople and they're like, where
(08:34):
are you putting that $5,000couch?
And I'm like I don't know, butit's perfect for what I see.
And so I look at furniture,found objects, art, wallpaper,
textures, colors is like myclippings and I look at them and
I spread them out and I driveeveryone crazy.
I was like, well, design roomnumber one.
(08:55):
And I'm like, no, I swirl, Icollage art with the found
objects.
I just did it in a cowboy bar orsix project and I got over 400
mounted horns.
That is a lot of horns.
It was very horny, the projectwas extremely horny and it's
like you go into that holdingarea and you're like, oh my God,
(09:19):
there's a mountain lion,there's two bison, there's a
possum holding a beer can,upside down, like that.
Like there was insanity on the.
I went nuts on the taxidermy,but I kind of again, it's also
always channeling whatever thedesign imperative is for.
That's like the catskillsproject, our lodge in the
catskills on 200 acres, 11buildings with an 1800s bowling
(09:39):
alley and a hundred year oldfool.
Like that design imperative wastaken from all of my time in
the adirondacks, all the GildedAge lodges, right.
Urban Cowboy Brooklyn wasindustrial mixed with rustic.
There's a log cabin but there'salso garage doors.
There's steel but there's alsowood.
It was Williamsburg.
It was my dream house.
(10:06):
Urban Cowboy National was an1890s Victorian, but it was my
second album, so I wanted to.
You know, every second albumyou get super experimental and
try to get away from your hit,right.
And so I mixed Southwestern andArt Deco and did a Southwestern
Deco overlay with all thatcrazy pattern, geometric wood
that then you saw everywhereafter that, like literally
everywhere, right, and it's beenodd and weird and you think
(10:29):
about whether it's the style orthe design or the cowboy.
I mean, we did all of thisbefore there was Southwestern
Patterns on runways, beforeBeyonce did it.
You know, a country album, like, as we've grown, we've been
open for 11 years, um, thisamericana cowboy outlaw country
(10:50):
aesthetic has now permeated intofashion.
It's permeated music, it'spermeated design, um, and we
were doing a lot of these kindof rustic luxury.
Um, tongue-in-cheek, but againinto your cinematic theme.
Like I love it when people willsay if r had a hotel or if Wes
Anderson had a hotel, it's likethe best compliment to me.
Jersey always says I shouldjust do set design.
(11:13):
She's like stop doing hotelsand just do set design, because
I design in symmetricalvignettes.
That's what makes sense to me.
Matt Brown (11:21):
What is your design process like now, say, for
Denver, you know, as the brandhas gotten bigger?
Once you get a property or haveyour eye on a new property, are
you still doing all of it?
Or is there like a missionimpossible team that kind of
comes together to help you?
Lyon Porter (11:38):
It's a mixture.
I'm still doing all and leadingall the design, but there's a
team behind me of people thatwill.
I know what my strengths andweaknesses are Like.
For instance, I'm designing ahotel jersey.
He's like, well, where is thecloset?
Where's someone going to putsomething?
And I'm like don't mess up mysymmetrical vignette, screw the
(11:59):
closet.
So a lot of our hotels willjust have like hooks and racks,
which again drives everyonecrazy.
So there's this intersection oflike if I'm designing a $20
million loft or something in NewYork, my residential background
comes in and I get reallyspecific on that and like the
design imperative changes right.
If it's for a client, it'sdifferent.
My own projects I get obsessedwith eliciting an emotion.
(12:22):
I will shun all practicality tocreate something that I feel
hits you when you walk in andit's like this is a special
place and it sets a stage and atone and experience.
Like we burn enough Palo Santoto like I don't even want to
talk about how much Palo Santowe burn, but people smell that
(12:44):
and they go.
What's that smell?
And it's like well, well, youknow, we started that in
brooklyn and um started buildingpalo santo every day and
everyone loves it.
And like these little tiny.
You know it's smell, taste,touch, sound, and you know you
create the stage for people thento pick up on the cues the
(13:05):
cloth the tubs are.
It's elemental.
We burn a lot of firewood, so Ilove elemental design.
I love activating things likelive fires, bathtubs.
I like putting a symmetricalbathtub perfectly on a window,
right Like there's.
You know, I create these thingsfor people when they're on
vacation to say, hey, look at me, I'm on vacation.
(13:27):
And that wasn't purposeful,that wasn't how I thought about
it, that's just what happened.
And then people start spreadingby word of mouth in social
media what you're doing, becauseyou're allowing them to fall
into that imperative and alsofall in love and take a bath and
sit by a fire and and do it ina beautiful space that isn't
(13:51):
like every other space and, Ithink, from a design imperative.
When I put together the team,it's like how do we like, for
instance, the dive motel?
We did disco balls on partyswitches.
It says party switch to lightup switch.
You flip the switch, the discoball starts turning and four
channels light up on a woodpaneled wall that that say dive,
radio, sex, drugs, rock androll and sleep.
(14:12):
It's an experience and it's notthat crazy to do, but no one
ever done that before, right,it's been copied a bunch, so you
know whether it's a disco ballor a horn or a bending branch
willow artist creating abasically human bird nest in the
Catskills.
These are all things that aremeant to elicit an emotion and
(14:35):
create the stage for anexperience that is not your
normal life.
You're on vacation and we buildexperiential environments that
we focus on lifestyle versusluxury.
Jeff Borman (14:48):
You've done how many projects now?
Lyon Porter (14:50):
I mean with the studio, we've done I don't know
30 projects.
With the hotels, we've done ourown.
We've done six projects.
Jeff Borman (14:57):
What mistakes did you learn from?
Like the early days messed itup, but you got it ironed out
now.
Lyon Porter (15:28):
It's hospitality in an operating business.
So I would say we're stillfiguring it out every day, every
time I think, well, if we ever,if we ever open a bar, you know
we'll, we'll, uh, we'll, make afortune.
And we opened a bar inNashville at our second location
, and it's you know, it's funnyUm, it's been so iterative.
We opened that bar at the.
That bar is a really goodexample of your question.
(15:49):
We made every mistake you couldpossibly make.
We opened a bar with one cookcooking the best chili you've
ever had in your life over anopen fire pit.
The health department showed upand said what are you doing?
And we're like, we're cookingchili.
Like, well, you have to coverit.
So we covered it.
Now we have a covered deck.
Well, now you have to encloseit.
(16:10):
We enclosed it.
We had gates that were closedand it was like we can never do
more than you know that.
But in COVID everyone wasoutside.
So we opened the gates.
That made everyone go to thegarden.
Now the garden's magical.
And then they go to the frontmansion where there's a wine bar
and that's a full activation orproperty.
The full activation of that wasalways the vision.
(16:31):
It took six years to executeiterative.
We started small, open the foodprogram, then had a tasting
menu.
Now we have Roberta's pizza,like We've made, I would say,
every single mistake you canmake.
Again, we had no experience, butthere's a magic to that because
we also come with a corporatemindset and I was literally on a
(16:55):
call with a private equity guytoday and he was like all the
big brands are trying to do whatyou guys have this feeling,
this thing, and they're allopening these cool boutique
brands but they don't feelboutique Because they're done
with this corporate stamp repeatit, order it in china, throw it
out in five years.
Um, I pick things that are 40years old that I hope look good
(17:18):
in 40 years and it's not athrowaway mentality.
You're trying, I'm trying tobuild things that last and not
just stamp it.
So I made all the mistakes.
But also that iterative natureand that lack of corporate
knowledge has been a gift andalso a curse, right, because I
wouldn't say we're the mostefficient.
(17:39):
My design process is notefficient, it is art and I think
that people feel that when theywalk in the door you know back
to the bar.
I watched the first season ofCheers when I designed the bar.
It looks nothing like a Bostonbar but it's my Cheers Pulling
in these, like I'm very as afilm minor, I'm very affected by
(18:02):
media and movies like andpulling in these kind of
thematic um things to createinspiration.
Like you know, a lot of peoplehave humbly been like that's my
favorite bar in the world andit's like that makes me smile
and makes it all worth it, right?
Yeah?
Jeff Borman (18:17):
I think there's a challenge in hospitality with
authenticity.
Uh, big brand managementcompanies across different
industries, from beer to travel.
They try every way to appeal toa consumer that wants a unique
experience and variety.
Right, anheuser-busch can buyRed Hook, sam Adams can buy
Dogfish Ed, and they'll ruin thebrands.
(18:37):
For certain, they will takecraft beer and make it mass
market 100% counter to thereason the brands were
successful to begin with.
100% counter to the reason thebrands were successful to begin
with.
And hotels are often the same.
Usually they are Soft brandsare desperately trying to bring
the boutique, local mom-and-popshop feel under a gigantic
(18:58):
conglomerate's umbrella andloyalty scheme.
Why do they fail in your mind?
Lyon Porter (19:03):
I think it's about finding that soul in the sauce
and continuing to add thatingredient.
A lot of times, efficiencies oflarger corporations will try to
value, engineer out thatingredient and make it more
profitable, which is why theybought the thing in the first
place.
So there's a creative tensionthere, and I think the ones that
(19:23):
have done it successfully likeif you look at, for instance,
RRL Ralph Lauren's fashion brandthat is a large conglomerate
owned corporate fashion brandthat is obsessed with details,
putting out something new andunique every single season.
I wear a lot of RRL.
I love RRL.
(19:44):
Ralph Lauren is an inspirationof mine in the sense of, you
know, he created a somaticfashion brand, right.
That painted a picture of astory of who you wanted to be
and how you wanted to feel it,and so I think there are some
wins, there are some storiesthat, like that, have scaled in
(20:04):
the right way, but I think themajority don't add that soul in
the sauce, right?
And then you feel that.
And if you felt that, and thenall of a sudden you don't, the
whole reason you were going intoit was because it felt
handcrafted, it felt unique, itfelt special and you know, as
we've grown, I've really triedto keep you know the hate the
(20:25):
word and everyone says they hatethe word but some sense of
authenticity.
This has always been a brand oflike let's build hotels and all
the places that we love for ourcommunity and then actually
building a real community aroundit is something we're, you know
, also very much focused on.
So, yeah, a lot of it was andis, I think about that, and when
(20:48):
you take on, you know, moremore corporate mind state, I
think a lot of that gets lostinstead of celebrated.
Jeff Borman (20:57):
Ian Schrager exited Morgan's after creating it and
building it into a just a reallycool set of hotels.
And when he did that, I mean heexited and then thought, well,
I might as well get paid a bunchof money to do it again this
time.
Call it addition, another oneof my favorite brands in the
business, but this time to haveMarriott's powerful development
(21:18):
team out there raising capital,pushing projects around the
globe.
So my question to you is, afterhearing this pod, one of the
majors let's just say IHG isgoing to call you and they're
going to make you an offer tobuy you out.
What's your price?
Lyon Porter (21:33):
Do you do it?
I think it would be aboutalignment with the team, and I
think that we've reached acritical mass of, I think, as
big as we could get without somesort of infrastructure beyond
this.
The team we have is amazing.
Big as we could get withoutsome sort of infrastructure
beyond this, like you know, theteam we have is amazing.
Uh, we just opened our sixthproject and, uh, people are
showing up.
(21:54):
Um, I think, when you thinkabout doing larger things, like
scale doesn't scare me in thesense of more rooms.
It's all the same effort, um,and I like I always reference,
like, the bowery hotel, one ofmy favorite hotels.
It has a lot of rooms.
You don't feel that, though,when you walk in.
So I'd be excited to doprojects with a group that
(22:15):
celebrates the vision while alsocreating efficiencies and
allowing us to add even moreexperience in and celebrate that
soul in the sauce, moreexperience in and celebrate that
soul in the sauce, but alsohave the infrastructure to, you
know, get economies of scale, asit pertains to, like you know,
there's a lot of service thatgoes in and there's a lot of
like moving parts with anoperating business.
(22:37):
So I think we're open toconversations and we are having
them, and I think it's justfinding, you know, the right
alignment with someone who wethink will be fun to grow with
and be additive, and we're goingto be additive and stick in our
lane in that you know scenario,and then they need to be
additive and stick in their laneand then that marriage, which
(22:57):
it would be, I think, could be areally powerful and exciting
one.
You know, ian's done it, likeyou mentioned, with addition
really well, and there's someother people who have done it
really well and there's otherpeople have done it and the
brands disappear, right.
And so, you know, we've been,we've had knocks on the door and
we've had conversations andwe've always been trying to be
really thoughtful with that,because I think that's, you know
(23:18):
, it's like getting married,right, you're going to be doing
that for years together and soopen to dating and having those
conversations, and it's just amatter of finding that alignment
where it's like, hey, we gotall that stuff that you're not
the best at, because we're notthe best at everything, but we
really like how you guys do thisand I think that would be
something that would beinteresting to us.
Matt Brown (23:40):
It's time for the lightning round Lion.
What's a found object that wastoo good to not keep for
yourself?
Lyon Porter (23:47):
Yeah, yeah, which one?
I think it's probably.
Like.
You know, it's funny, just likelooking around, not that the
viewer or the listeners can seethis, but like there's this
really cool chair right here.
You see, this thing it's likeSwedish 60s.
I was going to put it in ahotel and I actually bought two
(24:09):
of them and put them in denver.
You know, I just bought it andI was like, well, I might put
that in my house.
You know, um, uh, what was coolabout brooklyn was, you know, I
always look at it like I'mbuying it from my house, right,
because I spent a lot of time atthis place.
So you know, I bought a4,000chair that looks like the
Chrysler building that's inNashville, but I look at that as
(24:31):
my house, right.
So it's like you know all ofthem.
Well, it's funny.
I just mentioned two chairs.
When we were opening NashvilleJersey, I had like 18 chairs in
the parlor.
Like no couches.
I'd somehow just bought likechairs and she's like peopleches
.
I'd somehow just bought likechairs and she's like people
don't want to just sit on chairs, man, like we can't do this,
and I have an affliction and anaffinity for beautiful chairs.
(24:55):
So I find myself owning a lotof chairs and holding on to a
lot of chairs sure, some call itan affinity, others might call
it a sick obsession um yeah,I'll take.
Take it as a compliment whenyou're buying a four thousand
dollar chair, you have a problem.
Yeah, sure, put it.
Yeah, yeah the limits.
Matt Brown (25:18):
Now we've been looking at some of the some like
some of the stills from yourbowling alley work and it's so
cool.
Is there a type of propertylike that, maybe even another
kind of third space typeproperty, that you'd like to
take a crack at?
Lyon Porter (25:33):
You know, what's funny is so the bowling alley
was an old Kmart with 40 footceilings.
It looked literally likenothing.
So you know, I can make spacesfeel like something that have
nothing in them.
I mean, that was like an emptywarehouse, basically.
But something I'm taking a crackat right now in Tulsa, oklahoma
(25:54):
, with the studio is it's a UFO.
It's a disc on, like, thecorner of an intersection off
the highway that a guy built asa love letter to his wife after
she died, and he was a builder,and I have crazy plans.
Now we're building it with apneumatic elevator, like one of
those like pressurized elevatorsthat were beaming people up,
and we're electrifying it.
(26:15):
That's a fun one because it'sso architecturally different and
it's a disc on top of a podium40 feet in the air that we're,
like you know, making it into aUFO for a client, and I've been
working on this for like twoyears, and so that's a fun one
that I'm actually doing.
Now I'm building a dream housein Nashville that will probably
(26:37):
sell, but like doing custom tilewith Lindsay from Red Rock
Tiles and like hand-paintedmurals from a tattoo artist and
like.
So a lot of the projects thatI'm currently working on are
dream projects and um, that'skind of all we're really taking
on now is things that I'm reallypassionate about that are that
are just like, really unique,like that.
(26:57):
We those are a lot of thereaches that we get people that
aren't looking for your kind oftraditional restoration hardware
west elm style designers a, aSkiff's article described Urban
Cowboy as a brand of boutiquehotels that has a Cheers vibe.
Jeff Borman (27:14):
Did that sit comfortably or make your skin
crawl?
Lyon Porter (27:17):
Well, like I said earlier with the public house, I
watched the first season ofCheers when I was designing it,
so that sits well with me.
I think if we build a placewhere people want to come to
every day and sit there and havea good time and find a
community, I mean that was likethe core of Cheers, right.
Like when you watched it youfelt like you're going to hang
(27:37):
with your friends at the bar andyou know that I look at that as
a compliment.
Jeff Borman (27:43):
This is such a an appreciated space and yet not
understood, and I, when I'm Iguess what I mean by that is
brands know how much customerswant this space that you've
figured out and they just can'tpull it off.
So I listen, I appreciate yourtime and walking us through the
questions that I, when I thinkabout the failings and the
(28:06):
missteps.
These are the questions I haveand I appreciate having you here
to help me think through it.
Lyon Porter (28:13):
Thank you, of course.
Yeah, I mean, it's a veryunique space, right?
Experiential hospitality iswhat I look for, right, things
with soul in the sauce, and Ithink the economies of scale are
what help these things makemoney and are profitable.
And I think that there's anintersection right now between
hospitality and residential andthird spaces and spas and
(28:37):
bathhouses and hotels, and it'sreally fun to see what a lot of
people are putting out thereright now, and I think that it
will continue to evolve intothis mixture of more and more
experience-driven hospitality,which is what people are
demanding.
Right?
We just happened to kind of doit on a whim and fell quite
(28:57):
smackly in the middle of, youknow, brooklyn in 2014.
And you know Nashville we werethe first boutique hotel in
Nashville.
Like, we opened the Catskillsone week before COVID, who knew
that an escape from New Yorkproperty would be the best idea
ever?
So a lot of it is time andplace and luck and moments, and
are excited to continue thejourney and and uh, really
(29:18):
appreciate your guys' time andit was nice to chat about it.
Hi everybody, it's no Show with Matt Brown and Jeff
Borman.
Lion Porter is one of the mosttalked about hoteliers of our
time.
His well-known backstory is averitable folktale son of Shaker
Heights, hockey phenom, realestate wunderkind and, of course
, alongside co-founder andpartner Jersey Banks, he
(00:27):
transformed a five-room Brooklyntownhouse into the very first
urban cowboy.
The aesthetic they've createdis a symphony of textures, found
objects and vibes that make youfeel something when you walk
through the door, and it is aconcept that other hotels aspire
to but rarely meet.
The industry and the media payclose attention to this brand,
(00:50):
which now spokes into hotelproperties in the Catskills,
nashville and the newestlocation, a Gilded Age Denver
mansion, opened within the lastyear, and he's also launched
Cowboy Creative, his personaldesign studio, where the urban
cowboy magic can apply tococktail bars, bowling alleys,
lofts and tree houses from Sea,the Shining Sea.
(01:10):
His Instagram and his creativeportfolio are the stuff dreams
are made of.
Lion Porter, welcome to no Show.
Lyon Porter (01:19):
Well thank you.
That was probably the mostbeautiful introduction I've ever
had on one of these things, soappreciate the love.
I'll try to live up to it inthe next little bit.
Jeff Borman (01:32):
Next time you're introduced or you need a bio,
you're welcome to just get theAI transcript of this.
It's all yours now.
Lyon Porter (01:42):
Let's go.
I got my new bio for my Rayaprofile.
Jeff Borman (01:48):
When you created Urban Cowboy, what specifically
was missing in the marketplacethat you thought you could fill?
Well, I think.
Lyon Porter (01:56):
For me it was less the marketplace, because I had
Jersey and I always talk aboutbeing accidental hoteliers.
What was missing for me was athird space in New York City
where we lived.
I was, at the time, a realestate broker.
(02:16):
I also had a private driver andwas wearing, you know,
three-piece suits.
I was.
I sold a few billion dollars ofthe real estate on the
residential side in New Yorkafter I played hockey, and for
me, at that moment in my life, Iwas going through a divorce, I
was 32 years old and I wasmissing.
(02:39):
You know, especially in NewYork it's like bars, restaurants
, clubs, hotels, like I wasmissing that kind of clubhouse.
That third space and this is alot, this is before the word and
term third space was a thing,right, I designed my dream
townhouse before I got divorced,and so it was my first time
designing for myself.
(02:59):
I designed a lot of real estateprojects to make them more
sellable, but I didn't think ofmyself as an artist or a
designer or creative, and so itwasn't a gap in the market, it
was a gap in my life.
And this thing, this townhousein the second stop off the L in
Lorimer Street stop inWilliamsburg, brooklyn magically
(03:23):
coalesced around a few things.
One was cowboy was aboutfreedom.
The idea of a cowboy inAmericana was always about
freedom, right?
And so we called Urban Cowboy.
I didn't think anyone wouldshow up, up, and and it was our
(03:48):
five room bed and breakfast inBrooklyn.
But this is before Brooklyn wasa brand and we were in
Williamsburg and we were thesecond quote unquote hotel in
Williamsburg.
We weren't a hotel, we were atownhouse with five rooms and we
lived on the ground floor andthen, you know, hosted everyone.
And so Jersey at the time was inbetween apartments.
We were dating and I like, hey,you airbnb'd your apartment,
you can run a hotel.
(04:08):
And she's like, I'm like, howhard could it be?
And literally, you know, firsttime designing, first time being
an artist.
You know, we, we opened it upwithout an instagram.
The first people came andstayed and they're like well,
how do we pay you?
And we're like, do you cash?
Like we like it was thatremedial of hot.
So for us it wasn't a hole inthe market and we had no idea
(04:30):
what we were doing.
But then we started to play withthis idea of kind of like if
you have the key to the house,meaning the front door code,
you're, you're in, and it waslike basically a private members
club third space with nomembership dues, open bar, sauna
, hot tub, log cabin in the back, and we were like the second
(04:53):
quote-unquote hotel in brooklynand that's when brooklyn took
off as a brand.
We had people from japan, fromsweden, movie stars.
All of a sudden we would get ahundred people or 200 people
applying to stay for there forthe weekend and Jersey would say
, like you know, please apply,what's your Instagram?
And so people had to apply tostay and we would vet like, okay
(05:14):
, what would be the coolest youknow people to have in our house
?
And we lived there and she'dput out breakfast and we'd make
them free drinks and we hadprivate chefs.
So we had a butler and we hadjust, you know, if we had a 50
or 100 person party and hedidn't like it, it's like no
problem, go to the wife, noproblem, here's a refund.
We had this kind of veryirreverent sensibility about it,
like you're entering into ourlife and people seem to really
(05:36):
like it.
And this is also when Instagramwas instant and this really
amazing photographer named JaredChambers if you want to look
him up on the gram came and hecalled right before and he goes
I want $10,000 and I want thewhole house for a week and I'll
post you on Instagram.
And this is before the wordinfluencer was a thing and I was
(05:57):
like we just opened, we have nomoney, you can stay in the
cabin for the weekend.
He's like I'll be theretomorrow and like on the way
there, I was like Jersey.
Should we like get an Instagram?
Do you think that'd be a goodidea?
You know this is 2014.
He posted a beautiful pictureof someone in a clawfoot tub
which became a signature rightand the rest is kind of history.
(06:18):
Everyone showed up, the worldshowed up, every magazine in the
world showed up.
We did a shoot with name it, wedid it and so it was time and
place and us and if we got, youknow, it's like biracial couple
in Brooklyn having fun, throwingparties, hosting people from
all over the world, and themedia just was like, oh my god,
(06:40):
like if we got called hipstersone more time, like the hipster
hotel, the most Instagrammablehotel, like all this kind of
happened organically and myfirst time again designing for
myself, and it was a passionproject and it exploded.
It was a place to meet peopleand our friend group was always
there.
We called it couch theory Ifyou sat on our couch, something
(07:03):
would happen, and it always did.
And so you have theseinternational people and locals
and New Yorkers and people fromall over the world staying.
But you'd also have our friendsand you know whether it was
just you know us makingcocktails or cooking dinner or
whatever, you were invited intoour home and that was the first
Romakawi.
That was Brooklyn.
That's how we built a brandwith zero marketing dollars that
(07:25):
exploded and that's kind of theorigin story of what it filled
in my life not necessarily themarket.
Matt Brown (07:32):
Urban Cowboy hotels have been described as
theatrical, experiential,cinematic.
When you were building out thefirst Brooklyn property and I'm
sure there were many trips, Iwonder what your over under was
to Crest Hardware.
Rest in peace during that time.
As you were kind of fixing thisplace up and then later, when
(07:52):
you were kind of scaling up inNashville, did you know that you
wanted to create something withthis kind of heightened sense
of theater?
Did you know from the beginningthat this was going to be the
brand aesthetic, or did thatkind of evolve as the train was
moving?
Lyon Porter (08:12):
I just designed my dream house in Brooklyn.
It was fully designed before Idecided it was going to be bed
and breakfast.
So all of our design imperativeis just about what speaks to me
and I always tell people from adesign sensibility that I'm a
collage artist.
I go out and it drives everyoneinsane and I've done projects
with very corporate-mindedpeople and they're like, where
(08:34):
are you putting that $5,000couch?
And I'm like I don't know, butit's perfect for what I see.
And so I look at furniture,found objects, art, wallpaper,
textures, colors is like myclippings and I look at them and
I spread them out and I driveeveryone crazy.
I was like, well, design roomnumber one.
(08:55):
And I'm like, no, I swirl, Icollage art with the found
objects.
I just did it in a cowboy bar orsix project and I got over 400
mounted horns.
That is a lot of horns.
It was very horny, the projectwas extremely horny and it's
like you go into that holdingarea and you're like, oh my God,
(09:19):
there's a mountain lion,there's two bison, there's a
possum holding a beer can,upside down, like that.
Like there was insanity on the.
I went nuts on the taxidermy,but I kind of again, it's also
always channeling whatever thedesign imperative is for.
That's like the catskillsproject, our lodge in the
catskills on 200 acres, 11buildings with an 1800s bowling
(09:39):
alley and a hundred year oldfool.
Like that design imperative wastaken from all of my time in
the adirondacks, all the GildedAge lodges, right.
Urban Cowboy Brooklyn wasindustrial mixed with rustic.
There's a log cabin but there'salso garage doors.
There's steel but there's alsowood.
It was Williamsburg.
It was my dream house.
(10:06):
Urban Cowboy National was an1890s Victorian, but it was my
second album, so I wanted to.
You know, every second albumyou get super experimental and
try to get away from your hit,right.
And so I mixed Southwestern andArt Deco and did a Southwestern
Deco overlay with all thatcrazy pattern, geometric wood
that then you saw everywhereafter that, like literally
everywhere, right, and it's beenodd and weird and you think
(10:29):
about whether it's the style orthe design or the cowboy.
I mean, we did all of thisbefore there was Southwestern
Patterns on runways, beforeBeyonce did it.
You know, a country album, like, as we've grown, we've been
open for 11 years, um, thisamericana cowboy outlaw country
(10:50):
aesthetic has now permeated intofashion.
It's permeated music, it'spermeated design, um, and we
were doing a lot of these kindof rustic luxury.
Um, tongue-in-cheek, but againinto your cinematic theme.
Like I love it when people willsay if r had a hotel or if Wes
Anderson had a hotel, it's likethe best compliment to me.
Jersey always says I shouldjust do set design.
(11:13):
She's like stop doing hotelsand just do set design, because
I design in symmetricalvignettes.
That's what makes sense to me.
Matt Brown (11:21):
What is your design process like now, say, for
Denver, you know, as the brandhas gotten bigger?
Once you get a property or haveyour eye on a new property, are
you still doing all of it?
Or is there like a missionimpossible team that kind of
comes together to help you?
Lyon Porter (11:38):
It's a mixture.
I'm still doing all and leadingall the design, but there's a
team behind me of people thatwill.
I know what my strengths andweaknesses are Like.
For instance, I'm designing ahotel jersey.
He's like, well, where is thecloset?
Where's someone going to putsomething?
And I'm like don't mess up mysymmetrical vignette, screw the
(11:59):
closet.
So a lot of our hotels willjust have like hooks and racks,
which again drives everyonecrazy.
So there's this intersection oflike if I'm designing a $20
million loft or something in NewYork, my residential background
comes in and I get reallyspecific on that and like the
design imperative changes right.
If it's for a client, it'sdifferent.
My own projects I get obsessedwith eliciting an emotion.
(12:22):
I will shun all practicality tocreate something that I feel
hits you when you walk in andit's like this is a special
place and it sets a stage and atone and experience.
Like we burn enough Palo Santoto like I don't even want to
talk about how much Palo Santowe burn, but people smell that
(12:44):
and they go.
What's that smell?
And it's like well, well, youknow, we started that in
brooklyn and um started buildingpalo santo every day and
everyone loves it.
And like these little tiny.
You know it's smell, taste,touch, sound, and you know you
create the stage for people thento pick up on the cues the
(13:05):
cloth the tubs are.
It's elemental.
We burn a lot of firewood, so Ilove elemental design.
I love activating things likelive fires, bathtubs.
I like putting a symmetricalbathtub perfectly on a window,
right Like there's.
You know, I create these thingsfor people when they're on
vacation to say, hey, look at me, I'm on vacation.
(13:27):
And that wasn't purposeful,that wasn't how I thought about
it, that's just what happened.
And then people start spreadingby word of mouth in social
media what you're doing, becauseyou're allowing them to fall
into that imperative and alsofall in love and take a bath and
sit by a fire and and do it ina beautiful space that isn't
(13:51):
like every other space and, Ithink, from a design imperative.
When I put together the team,it's like how do we like, for
instance, the dive motel?
We did disco balls on partyswitches.
It says party switch to lightup switch.
You flip the switch, the discoball starts turning and four
channels light up on a woodpaneled wall that that say dive,
radio, sex, drugs, rock androll and sleep.
(14:12):
It's an experience and it's notthat crazy to do, but no one
ever done that before, right,it's been copied a bunch, so you
know whether it's a disco ballor a horn or a bending branch
willow artist creating abasically human bird nest in the
Catskills.
These are all things that aremeant to elicit an emotion and
(14:35):
create the stage for anexperience that is not your
normal life.
You're on vacation and we buildexperiential environments that
we focus on lifestyle versusluxury.
Jeff Borman (14:48):
You've done how many projects now?
Lyon Porter (14:50):
I mean with the studio, we've done I don't know
30 projects.
With the hotels, we've done ourown.
We've done six projects.
Jeff Borman (14:57):
What mistakes did you learn from?
Like the early days messed itup, but you got it ironed out
now.
Lyon Porter (15:28):
It's hospitality in an operating business.
So I would say we're stillfiguring it out every day, every
time I think, well, if we ever,if we ever open a bar, you know
we'll, we'll, uh, we'll, make afortune.
And we opened a bar inNashville at our second location
, and it's you know, it's funnyUm, it's been so iterative.
We opened that bar at the.
That bar is a really goodexample of your question.
(15:49):
We made every mistake you couldpossibly make.
We opened a bar with one cookcooking the best chili you've
ever had in your life over anopen fire pit.
The health department showed upand said what are you doing?
And we're like, we're cookingchili.
Like, well, you have to coverit.
So we covered it.
Now we have a covered deck.
Well, now you have to encloseit.
(16:10):
We enclosed it.
We had gates that were closedand it was like we can never do
more than you know that.
But in COVID everyone wasoutside.
So we opened the gates.
That made everyone go to thegarden.
Now the garden's magical.
And then they go to the frontmansion where there's a wine bar
and that's a full activation orproperty.
The full activation of that wasalways the vision.
(16:31):
It took six years to executeiterative.
We started small, open the foodprogram, then had a tasting
menu.
Now we have Roberta's pizza,like We've made, I would say,
every single mistake you canmake.
Again, we had no experience, butthere's a magic to that because
we also come with a corporatemindset and I was literally on a
(16:55):
call with a private equity guytoday and he was like all the
big brands are trying to do whatyou guys have this feeling,
this thing, and they're allopening these cool boutique
brands but they don't feelboutique Because they're done
with this corporate stamp repeatit, order it in china, throw it
out in five years.
Um, I pick things that are 40years old that I hope look good
(17:18):
in 40 years and it's not athrowaway mentality.
You're trying, I'm trying tobuild things that last and not
just stamp it.
So I made all the mistakes.
But also that iterative natureand that lack of corporate
knowledge has been a gift andalso a curse, right, because I
wouldn't say we're the mostefficient.
(17:39):
My design process is notefficient, it is art and I think
that people feel that when theywalk in the door you know back
to the bar.
I watched the first season ofCheers when I designed the bar.
It looks nothing like a Bostonbar but it's my Cheers Pulling
in these, like I'm very as afilm minor, I'm very affected by
(18:02):
media and movies like andpulling in these kind of
thematic um things to createinspiration.
Like you know, a lot of peoplehave humbly been like that's my
favorite bar in the world andit's like that makes me smile
and makes it all worth it, right?
Yeah?
Jeff Borman (18:17):
I think there's a challenge in hospitality with
authenticity.
Uh, big brand managementcompanies across different
industries, from beer to travel.
They try every way to appeal toa consumer that wants a unique
experience and variety.
Right, anheuser-busch can buyRed Hook, sam Adams can buy
Dogfish Ed, and they'll ruin thebrands.
(18:37):
For certain, they will takecraft beer and make it mass
market 100% counter to thereason the brands were
successful to begin with.
100% counter to the reason thebrands were successful to begin
with.
And hotels are often the same.
Usually they are Soft brandsare desperately trying to bring
the boutique, local mom-and-popshop feel under a gigantic
(18:58):
conglomerate's umbrella andloyalty scheme.
Why do they fail in your mind?
Lyon Porter (19:03):
I think it's about finding that soul in the sauce
and continuing to add thatingredient.
A lot of times, efficiencies oflarger corporations will try to
value, engineer out thatingredient and make it more
profitable, which is why theybought the thing in the first
place.
So there's a creative tensionthere, and I think the ones that
(19:23):
have done it successfully likeif you look at, for instance,
RRL Ralph Lauren's fashion brandthat is a large conglomerate
owned corporate fashion brandthat is obsessed with details,
putting out something new andunique every single season.
I wear a lot of RRL.
I love RRL.
(19:44):
Ralph Lauren is an inspirationof mine in the sense of, you
know, he created a somaticfashion brand, right.
That painted a picture of astory of who you wanted to be
and how you wanted to feel it,and so I think there are some
wins, there are some storiesthat, like that, have scaled in
(20:04):
the right way, but I think themajority don't add that soul in
the sauce, right?
And then you feel that.
And if you felt that, and thenall of a sudden you don't, the
whole reason you were going intoit was because it felt
handcrafted, it felt unique, itfelt special and you know, as
we've grown, I've really triedto keep you know the hate the
(20:25):
word and everyone says they hatethe word but some sense of
authenticity.
This has always been a brand oflike let's build hotels and all
the places that we love for ourcommunity and then actually
building a real community aroundit is something we're, you know
, also very much focused on.
So, yeah, a lot of it was andis, I think about that, and when
(20:48):
you take on, you know, moremore corporate mind state, I
think a lot of that gets lostinstead of celebrated.
Jeff Borman (20:57):
Ian Schrager exited Morgan's after creating it and
building it into a just a reallycool set of hotels.
And when he did that, I mean heexited and then thought, well,
I might as well get paid a bunchof money to do it again this
time.
Call it addition, another oneof my favorite brands in the
business, but this time to haveMarriott's powerful development
(21:18):
team out there raising capital,pushing projects around the
globe.
So my question to you is, afterhearing this pod, one of the
majors let's just say IHG isgoing to call you and they're
going to make you an offer tobuy you out.
What's your price?
Lyon Porter (21:33):
Do you do it?
I think it would be aboutalignment with the team, and I
think that we've reached acritical mass of, I think, as
big as we could get without somesort of infrastructure beyond
this.
The team we have is amazing.
Big as we could get withoutsome sort of infrastructure
beyond this, like you know, theteam we have is amazing.
Uh, we just opened our sixthproject and, uh, people are
showing up.
(21:54):
Um, I think, when you thinkabout doing larger things, like
scale doesn't scare me in thesense of more rooms.
It's all the same effort, um,and I like I always reference,
like, the bowery hotel, one ofmy favorite hotels.
It has a lot of rooms.
You don't feel that, though,when you walk in.
So I'd be excited to doprojects with a group that
(22:15):
celebrates the vision while alsocreating efficiencies and
allowing us to add even moreexperience in and celebrate that
soul in the sauce, moreexperience in and celebrate that
soul in the sauce, but alsohave the infrastructure to, you
know, get economies of scale, asit pertains to, like you know,
there's a lot of service thatgoes in and there's a lot of
like moving parts with anoperating business.
(22:37):
So I think we're open toconversations and we are having
them, and I think it's justfinding, you know, the right
alignment with someone who wethink will be fun to grow with
and be additive, and we're goingto be additive and stick in our
lane in that you know scenario,and then they need to be
additive and stick in their laneand then that marriage, which
(22:57):
it would be, I think, could be areally powerful and exciting
one.
You know, ian's done it, likeyou mentioned, with addition
really well, and there's someother people who have done it
really well and there's otherpeople have done it and the
brands disappear, right.
And so, you know, we've been,we've had knocks on the door and
we've had conversations andwe've always been trying to be
really thoughtful with that,because I think that's, you know
(23:18):
, it's like getting married,right, you're going to be doing
that for years together and soopen to dating and having those
conversations, and it's just amatter of finding that alignment
where it's like, hey, we gotall that stuff that you're not
the best at, because we're notthe best at everything, but we
really like how you guys do thisand I think that would be
something that would beinteresting to us.
Matt Brown (23:40):
It's time for the lightning round Lion.
What's a found object that wastoo good to not keep for
yourself?
Lyon Porter (23:47):
Yeah, yeah, which one?
I think it's probably.
Like.
You know, it's funny, just likelooking around, not that the
viewer or the listeners can seethis, but like there's this
really cool chair right here.
You see, this thing it's likeSwedish 60s.
I was going to put it in ahotel and I actually bought two
(24:09):
of them and put them in denver.
You know, I just bought it andI was like, well, I might put
that in my house.
You know, um, uh, what was coolabout brooklyn was, you know, I
always look at it like I'mbuying it from my house, right,
because I spent a lot of time atthis place.
So you know, I bought a4,000chair that looks like the
Chrysler building that's inNashville, but I look at that as
(24:31):
my house, right.
So it's like you know all ofthem.
Well, it's funny.
I just mentioned two chairs.
When we were opening NashvilleJersey, I had like 18 chairs in
the parlor.
Like no couches.
I'd somehow just bought likechairs and she's like peopleches
.
I'd somehow just bought likechairs and she's like people
don't want to just sit on chairs, man, like we can't do this,
and I have an affliction and anaffinity for beautiful chairs.
(24:55):
So I find myself owning a lotof chairs and holding on to a
lot of chairs sure, some call itan affinity, others might call
it a sick obsession um yeah,I'll take.
Take it as a compliment whenyou're buying a four thousand
dollar chair, you have a problem.
Yeah, sure, put it.
Yeah, yeah the limits.
Matt Brown (25:18):
Now we've been looking at some of the some like
some of the stills from yourbowling alley work and it's so
cool.
Is there a type of propertylike that, maybe even another
kind of third space typeproperty, that you'd like to
take a crack at?
Lyon Porter (25:33):
You know, what's funny is so the bowling alley
was an old Kmart with 40 footceilings.
It looked literally likenothing.
So you know, I can make spacesfeel like something that have
nothing in them.
I mean, that was like an emptywarehouse, basically.
But something I'm taking a crackat right now in Tulsa, oklahoma
(25:54):
, with the studio is it's a UFO.
It's a disc on, like, thecorner of an intersection off
the highway that a guy built asa love letter to his wife after
she died, and he was a builder,and I have crazy plans.
Now we're building it with apneumatic elevator, like one of
those like pressurized elevatorsthat were beaming people up,
and we're electrifying it.
(26:15):
That's a fun one because it'sso architecturally different and
it's a disc on top of a podium40 feet in the air that we're,
like you know, making it into aUFO for a client, and I've been
working on this for like twoyears, and so that's a fun one
that I'm actually doing.
Now I'm building a dream housein Nashville that will probably
(26:37):
sell, but like doing custom tilewith Lindsay from Red Rock
Tiles and like hand-paintedmurals from a tattoo artist and
like.
So a lot of the projects thatI'm currently working on are
dream projects and um, that'skind of all we're really taking
on now is things that I'm reallypassionate about that are that
are just like, really unique,like that.
(26:57):
We those are a lot of thereaches that we get people that
aren't looking for your kind oftraditional restoration hardware
west elm style designers a, aSkiff's article described Urban
Cowboy as a brand of boutiquehotels that has a Cheers vibe.
Jeff Borman (27:14):
Did that sit comfortably or make your skin
crawl?
Lyon Porter (27:17):
Well, like I said earlier with the public house, I
watched the first season ofCheers when I was designing it,
so that sits well with me.
I think if we build a placewhere people want to come to
every day and sit there and havea good time and find a
community, I mean that was likethe core of Cheers, right.
Like when you watched it youfelt like you're going to hang
(27:37):
with your friends at the bar andyou know that I look at that as
a compliment.
Jeff Borman (27:43):
This is such a an appreciated space and yet not
understood, and I, when I'm Iguess what I mean by that is
brands know how much customerswant this space that you've
figured out and they just can'tpull it off.
So I listen, I appreciate yourtime and walking us through the
questions that I, when I thinkabout the failings and the
(28:06):
missteps.
These are the questions I haveand I appreciate having you here
to help me think through it.
Lyon Porter (28:13):
Thank you, of course.
Yeah, I mean, it's a veryunique space, right?
Experiential hospitality iswhat I look for, right, things
with soul in the sauce, and Ithink the economies of scale are
what help these things makemoney and are profitable.
And I think that there's anintersection right now between
hospitality and residential andthird spaces and spas and
(28:37):
bathhouses and hotels, and it'sreally fun to see what a lot of
people are putting out thereright now, and I think that it
will continue to evolve intothis mixture of more and more
experience-driven hospitality,which is what people are
demanding.
Right?
We just happened to kind of doit on a whim and fell quite
(28:57):
smackly in the middle of, youknow, brooklyn in 2014.
And you know Nashville we werethe first boutique hotel in
Nashville.
Like, we opened the Catskillsone week before COVID, who knew
that an escape from New Yorkproperty would be the best idea
ever?
So a lot of it is time andplace and luck and moments, and
are excited to continue thejourney and and uh, really
(29:18):
appreciate your guys' time andit was nice to chat about it.
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