November 25, 2024 • 33 mins
If Greg Aretakis had a coaching tree, it would literally include every CEO and high-ranking executive in the airline industry. We talk with the Midwest Express Airlines president about the much-needed role of mid-sized airlines, how antitrust investigations get started, the future of private air travel and small airfields, whether completely electric planes will ever fly, and so so so much more!
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Matt Brown (00:08):
If Greg Aratakis had a coaching tree, it would
literally include almost everyCEO and high-ranking executive
in the airline industry.
Greg is president of MidwestExpress Airlines Inc, a new
airline which is planned to beMilwaukee-based, serving Midwest
markets, with frequent flightsand warm chocolate chip cookies
on board the famous chocolatechip cookies.
(00:29):
I'm sure he gets questionsabout it all the time.
He's been in the airlineindustry since the late 70s,
serving at American Airlines,continental Airlines, shuttle,
america, vanguard, frontier andMidwest.
Passion is an oft-used term inthe travel business, but Greg is
the genuine article.
He is executive advisor,survivor and sage in this
(00:51):
business.
Greg, welcome to no Show.
Greg Aretakis (00:53):
Thank you guys.
So much, matt, jeff, very goodto meet you both.
Jeff Borman (00:58):
Great to have you.
Okay, so I didn't know.
I don't get Matt's introsbefore he does this.
I'm now not going to be able tothink of Midwest Airline
Express without thinking of aformer brand.
I worked for Doubletree.
I remember asking the head ofthe brand when I first began
with Hilton so what isDoubletree's brand, what is it?
Greg Aretakis (01:17):
And he said a cookie which was started in 1984
and changed the name at theturn of the century to Midwest
Airlines, was an airline createdby Kimberly-Clark, when it was
headquartered here in Appleton,wisconsin.
The airline started out as acorporate jet shuttle that
(01:39):
morphed into a scheduled airline.
In those days we had allbusiness class seats.
There were older DC-9s, butthey looked just fine inside.
The problem with the airplaneswas, you know, they had a
lavatory and it could smell upthe back of the airplane.
And one day a very cleveremployee said why don't we bake
(02:00):
chocolate chip cookies on board?
Not as a snack, but to perfumethe plane?
And sure enough, the airplanesbecame known for the scent of
the chocolate chip cookie.
And the chocolate chip cookiesurvived from the first day, or
nearly the first day, all theway until the company merged
with Frontier Airlines andceased to be a brand in 2011.
(02:22):
And ceased to be a brand in2011.
Matt Brown (02:27):
Greg, I can't think of a signature move by an
airline that resonated so muchwith people, like people still
talk about those cookies.
Greg Aretakis (02:33):
They do.
And I get in trouble when Italk to investors or other
people who are interested inwhat we're doing, because
everyone wants to focus on thecookie and I keep on saying the
cookie isn't the brand, thecookie isn't a snack, the cookie
is a symbol.
To this day, I have arelationship with the original
(02:57):
maker of the cookie.
They're in River Falls,wisconsin, and I buy the cookie
in boxes of 240, par-baked andfrozen, and then we have cookie
ovens and we will give them outat civic events.
We will give them out at theChamber of Commerce annual
dinner, do you?
Matt Brown (03:16):
think it's in any way because, in an increasingly
mechanized environment, goingthrough an airport, boarding a
plane, deboarding a plane, thatit feels personal?
Greg Aretakis (03:28):
Yes, it does.
I can say many times that wealways overbooked, overbaked the
cookies and we would alwayshave a dozen, maybe 18 cookies
left over after we'd served thepeople.
And sometimes people turneddown the cookie for sugar
reasons or for whatever reason,but walking off the airplane we
(03:50):
would offer people two cookiesin a cute little packet I have
one right over here actually,but a very cute little packet
and years later people told mewe took those cookies home, gave
them to our kids and the nexttime we were traveling the kids
would say to me Daddy, when youget back, make sure you bring me
(04:12):
a couple of cookies In anindustry that's become very
similar.
I mean, the difference betweenairline seats and the flights
isn't huge.
The cookie is a differentiator.
We talk about the stickiness ofa brand, not much more sticky
(04:32):
than having your kids saying canyou bring me home one of those?
Jeff Borman (04:37):
When Doubletree, like all hotels, were shuttered
during COVID, there were thesepassionate travelers who
couldn't go to Double Tree andcouldn't stay and get their
cookies, and so Double Treepublished the recipe.
That's how powerful it was.
If we understand, you miss yourcookies badly, here you are All
right and almost as much fun ascookies.
(04:59):
I want to ask a question aboutairline deregulation and
regulation At the end of the 70s.
Doj, DOT has recently youwitnessed deregulation at the
end of the 70s.
The DOJ and DOT just announcedthat they're launching an
investigation into antitrustbehavior in aviation, again here
in 2024.
(05:21):
My question is what's toinvestigate?
Greg Aretakis (05:24):
Well, I know where it starts.
It starts with people who sayto people maybe at a cocktail
party, maybe after a committeehearing on the Hill, they'll say
things like boy, airfares havereally gotten high.
Or I'm hearing a lot about highairfares.
Or I get letters from a friendor a constituent who had a bad
(05:48):
flight experience and had a hardtime contacting the airline or
getting my refund or somethinglike that.
And that becomes the beginningof that conversation.
At the end of the day,deregulation gave people the
right to try differenttechniques associated with
(06:10):
flying an airplane around.
Of course, table stakes areit's got to be safe and it's got
to be reliable, and as soon asyou go off that script, then the
government is looking over yourshoulder.
I have said many times and I'vesaid it publicly, so I won't
hide from it.
I've said when we talk aboutre-regulating the airline
(06:34):
business or doing a case studyon competition in the airline
business, the first two thingsthat ought to happen is the
Department of Transportation and, separately, the Department of
Justice each have to look intotheir respective mirror, because
where we are today is no moreor less than the product of what
(06:56):
government regulation hascreated.
In 1978, you could fly whereyou wanted to fly for the first
time, with as many flights asyou wanted.
For the first time, you couldcharge the prices you wanted.
For the first time, you coulddo marketing shtick for the
first time.
(07:16):
And as Dr Kahn Fred Kahn, whowas the author of deregulation
once said, the dumb should beallowed to fail.
And that's what deregulationwas all about.
Now we've moved to a place andI will steal the line that has
been offused too big to fail,and the airlines that are left
(07:40):
are, in fact, kind of too big tofail.
The government is going to workextra hard to keep them up and,
as a byproduct of that, hasincreased the barriers to entry.
Remember, in 1978, we createdairlines like well.
1980, we create airlines likeNew York Air and People Express
(08:01):
and Midway Airlines.
Those brands are long gone.
They in fact failed.
Today, the cost of getting inthe business, the capital
requirement, the regulatoryhurdles that you have to go over
are gigantic, and thegovernment did that in order to
make sure the too big to faildidn't in fact.
Jeff Borman (08:23):
So where I, as a consumer and a pretty educated
one find issue with the currentenvironment, first of all, it
seems to me that it gotsignificantly worse after the
financial crisis and big sixbecame big three.
The second to that is there area few things more annoying when
I travel than when AmericanAirlines tells me on landing we
(08:43):
appreciate you for choosing us.
You have a choice when you flyOn my way into DFW, where I have
no choice in who I fly theregulatory environment to me.
if you're looking at nationalfigures, you're probably not
going to find an issue.
But if you're looking at anyonebased in Atlanta trying to have
a choice in Dallas trying tohave a choice, right, let's go
(09:04):
for probably 20 of the next top25 cities.
That's where it seems to rubbermeets road.
Regulation is back in question.
Am I wrong in that observationor am I just a jaded weekly
traveler?
Greg Aretakis (09:17):
The bottom line is, if you look at the large
cities, what they have going forthem Dallas and Atlanta and
Detroit and O'Hare and Newark isthey have a lot of flights to a
lot of places.
So if you're in Dallas andyou're trying to go to
Cincinnati, there are probablysix flights a day and they're
(09:40):
conveniently timed.
They might be more expensivethan they used to be and I'll
get to the price side of it in asecond.
But if you're in Cincinnati andyou want to go to Pittsburgh,
your choice is to drive becausethere are no flights.
If you want to go to St Louisthese are five-hour drives, by
the way, five-hour drive thereare no flights.
If you want to go between thetwo largest cities in the state
(10:04):
of Ohio, cleveland andCincinnati there are no flights.
So the fact is that if you wantto go to Dallas or O'Hare or
Newark, even Nashville, which isa Southwest hub, or Phoenix, an
American Airlines hub, orDenver, a Southwest and United
hub, plenty of flights Airlineshub.
(10:26):
Or Denver, a Southwest andUnited hub, plenty of flights.
If you want to go any placeelse, it becomes harder and part
of the hard becomes.
You got to take a connectionBack in 1980 or 81,.
You could fly most places thatwere within two hours of where
you lived for $39,.
$49, right, those wereSouthwest Airlines just a couple
(10:48):
of decades ago charging $19,right.
As a smart man once said to me,if you charge a low enough
price, people will travel in awheelbarrow, and that's very
much the situation Today.
That same flight is going tocost you about $600 round trip
(11:08):
and, by the way, I might be lowand at $600,.
The demand of the customer fora more complete delivery.
Whether that's the airportprocess, whether that's the
boarding process, whether that'sthe flying process, whether
it's the collection of baggageupon arrival process.
They demand excellence becausefor 600 bucks, they feel like
(11:32):
they paid for it At $39,.
When People Express didn't flyfrom Newark to Buffalo for three
days during a blizzard,everyone said, well, $39, I'll
just sleep in the airport.
That's what's changed.
What's changed is thecombination of the demands by
(11:53):
the customer, particularly at aprice versus what they had been
years ago.
Jeff Borman (11:59):
When I was a young revenue manager, I had a former
airline executive, who was amentor, to me explain how
airlines would price fix bypublishing fares on Saturday
mornings when shopping volumewas the lowest, making the risk
of being priced wrong very low.
So if a pricing manager fromAmerican wanted to take the fare
up from DCA to Tulsa, they'd doit on a Saturday morning, and
(12:20):
if the competing airlines forthat route were going to match,
they would do it on Saturdayafternoon, and if they didn't,
the airline revenue guy fromAmerican could take that rate
back to what it was.
I imagine that there is a farmore sophisticated system out
there today, but do airlinesstill message price intent with
each other like they used to?
Greg Aretakis (12:39):
It's more instantaneous now than it was.
So there are two things I wantto talk about, then and now.
So then, atp Co, a companyheadquartered right outside of
DC which is the nationwideclearinghouse for airline fares.
They used to only allow a fareload three times a day, and
(13:01):
twice on Saturdays, and twice onSundays, by the way, so that
the trick was to load on thefirst load on Saturday morning
and there isn't much buying onSaturday afternoon.
So your risk of making acatastrophic mistake was small,
although I can remember exampleswhere Alitalia published a fare
of $59 from New York to Romefor a day and they sold a
(13:26):
billion tickets and it was bad.
But I mean, it happens right.
But on Saturday afternoonmostly, what happens is the
fares are quickly scrutinized.
You don't fix it Saturday night.
Listen, have a great evening.
Sunday at noon you're at yourcomputer and you're saying, gee,
(13:47):
delta didn't match, or PeopleExpress didn't match, or PSA
didn't match, and you justchange your fare back and there
was very, very little harm.
Now there's an almostinstantaneous loading of fares.
It's hourly or even quickerthan that.
So again, the signaling happensmore.
(14:08):
You know, someone has I've seenseveral articles the best day
to buy a ticket is on a Tuesday.
Well, you know, I file a fareon a Tuesday at 11 o'clock in
the morning.
By 1 o'clock in the afternoon Ican fix it, because it can be
fixed very quickly, and so thedrama associated with Saturday
(14:30):
morning and Sunday morning isn'tthe way it was.
Airlines don't want to be thatdifferent.
Among the club of AmericanUnited, delta, alaska, the fares
are almost always harmonious.
Among the airlines likeAllegiant which doesn't publish
(14:53):
with ATP Co by the way, they doit all internally or Spirit or
Frontier, the numbers can besomewhat different, but that's
more of a marketing ploy thananything else.
Some people offer a cookie,some people offer a fare that's
$20 lower.
Matt Brown (15:11):
Let's go down that rabbit hole a little bit and
talk a little about privateaviation, particularly the
future of private aviation.
Private flyers can dodgeairport experiences.
They can dodge the two-hourwait times, the flight delays,
the bag checks, all theunnecessary anxiety created by
the TSA, and they can do it forthe cost of a first-class
(15:32):
commercial ticket for a couple.
Why don't we see more of this?
Greg Aretakis (15:36):
I think we are.
It's certainly growing.
In 2020, we set an all-timerecord for private jet flying.
2021, we exceeded that.
2022, we exceeded that.
2023, we exceeded that, andonly this year is it going down
a little bit.
That is absolutely collinear toairlines finally growing their
(16:03):
schedules enough to making theconvenience factor for scheduled
flight almost as good asprivate jet.
But as I said earlier when wetalked about price and the
relationship between aconsumer's expectation and the
price is, once you get to thepoint where a two-hour flight is
(16:26):
going to cost just $600, sothat the family of four is going
to pay $2,400 or more, I canfly a private jet for about
double that and all my wholefamily's on the airplane.
And oh, by the way, I park forfree at the FBO.
I get a nice little snack and acup of coffee in the 20 minutes
(16:51):
and I'll repeat 20 minutes thatI have to wait around for my
plane and then I walk out andget on the airplane.
I don't have to meet 10,000 ofmy closest friends in the
airport concourse, I simply geton the plane and then, when I
get to the other end, I walk offand I get on my Uber or, if
there's a rental car, I pick itup.
(17:12):
The difference of convenienceis quite high.
The frustration with people atthe airport has grown.
It's one of the reasons whyairlines like Delta are building
clubs with private entranceswhere they have their own
(17:32):
dedicated TSA line, so thatpeople going to the highest-end
clubs have a more private,jet-like experience.
Matt Brown (17:42):
On a similar tack, america has something like 4,000
small airfields and they're allaround this.
Will those ever be tapped forsignificant commercial travel?
If we see this kind ofdispersion out for kind of
personal experiences, I wonderif somebody will come along and
start to leverage all theseairstrips.
Greg Aretakis (18:05):
Well, some of those strips are not being
served but are in fact viable.
There are airports likeRepublic Airport in Long Island
or Lakeland Airport south ofOrlando.
Those airports were alwaysavailable to be served.
I guess the best really recentexample is New Haven,
(18:28):
Connecticut.
New Haven was a viablecommercial airport, had no
service.
Avelo Airlines went in thereand today they serve 18
destinations nonstop out ofthere and it has many of the
small airport benefits, of thesmall airport benefits and the
(18:52):
piece of the airport.
That's become more worthy of adiscussion.
So we used to all live moreurban.
We lived in Connecticut, welived in Queens, we lived in
Northeast New Jersey and we wereanywhere 45 minutes an hour
away from an airport.
One of the things the pandemicdid was for a large fracture of
(19:13):
people, it sent them out to thehinterland and the access to an
airport might be two hours andin fact the end of air service
at a lot of small airports,which has been occurring as the
small planes have been retiredout, those people are now faced
(19:33):
with a two-hour or so drive.
So there's a certainconvenience with those 4,000
airports.
The private jet business isalready doing that and there's a
lot of data out there.
If you go to look at someplacelike Pontiac Michigan, it's one
of the busiest airports in thecountry.
No one knows that Teterboro hasbeen there for years, but these
(19:54):
airports they're so highlyconvenient.
No one wants to go to the bigairport, they want to go to
these private, these small,private airports closer to where
I work.
Jeff Borman (20:04):
So how does that make its way into everyday life?
Most people I mean 99% ofcommercial air flyers in America
don't even consider using thesetiny airports.
What has to happen for theAddison airport, that is five
minutes from me, to be on myradar instead of DFW, at 35
(20:26):
minutes away?
Greg Aretakis (20:28):
And DFW is 35 minutes away.
If there's no traffic acrossLBJ and if you can find a
parking spot, that's reasonablyconvenient.
But I digress.
Jeff Borman (20:38):
I don't park and I fly super early, but part of
that is because of all theinconveniences you described.
Greg Aretakis (20:45):
So let's say I want to fly privately.
How do I connect withDirectional Aviation?
They're headquartered justoutside of Cleveland, ohio, one
of the largest private jetproviders in the country.
Who knows them?
How do you buy them?
Can you go on Google and buythem?
Are they in a GDS where atravel agency is going to see
(21:08):
them?
The answer is no and no Privatejet has the most potential and
the most flexibility of theaviation products, because the
rules for private jet flyingallow a pilot to be older than
65 years old.
Commercially that's against therules, but I can be 67 and a
(21:32):
certified pilot and fly a Falcon50.
And I'll get hired by a privatejet airline.
If I'm a retired United captain, I might be able to fly till
I'm in my mid-70s and I'mtotally qualified.
I'm probably my mid-70s and I'mtotally qualified.
I'm probably overqualified.
So they don't have pilot issuesthe way that scheduled airlines
(21:53):
have pilot issues and theydon't have forced retirements
the way that scheduled airlinesdo and they don't have as many
restrictions on what airportsthey can fly into.
Think about the flexibility onwhat airports they can fly into.
Think about the flexibility?
Jeff Borman (22:07):
Do you think that with EVTOL, the electric
vertical takeoff and landing orflying taxis, I think, as most
people think of them.
I don't know if that'sparticularly an accurate
description, but as people usethis product and it will evolve
and be available at some pointrather soon, will that be what
changes the use of these smallairfields?
Greg Aretakis (22:28):
I talk with the eVTOL guys every year at EAA up
in Oshkosh, Wisconsin.
They all present and every yearwhen I ask them, how far away
are you from certification, it'salways 18 to 24 months.
And, by the way, the next yearit's 18 to 24 months.
And, by the way, the next yearit's 18 to 24 months.
And we hear periodically ofsome of these eVTOL makers
(22:54):
suddenly running out of cash andshutting down.
That's just happened a coupleof weeks ago with one of them.
But if you look at a companylike AMP or a company like
Lilith or some of these guys,they're all coming around Right
now.
The product doesn't have thelegs.
It can be a four-seater andmight be able to go maybe 100
(23:17):
miles.
I am not going to poo-poo thefuture of electric flying.
I think it's going to come.
But there's a whole lot ofstuff that has to happen first.
One is the technology isn'tthere when the product can fly
for a couple of hours and thebattery can be charged or
(23:37):
swapped out at the other end in25 minutes.
That's part of it.
Remember the original electriccars that we saw in the United
States, the Prius.
The battery was the size of thecar, I mean, it was literally a
.
The entire chassis was a giantbattery.
Aviation can't handle that kindof weight.
So the battery's got, thetechnology's got to get better,
(24:01):
and even Elon Musk has saidwe're not there yet, we're not
even close.
Musk has said we're not thereyet, we're not even close.
I've said you get 20,000 torquepounds of power out of a
battery the size of a shoeboxand it can last for two hours.
Okay, now you got something.
The other side of the coin is aplane flying through the sky
with fixed wings.
(24:22):
If something bad were to happen, an engine were to shut down or
something, you can glide to anairport and make a very safe
landing.
It happens enough times that weknow it works.
A propellerized airplane,something more akin to a hybrid
helicopter.
When the battery suddenly goesdead, it's a stone that falls
(24:45):
straight down suddenly goes dead, it's a stone that falls
straight down.
So there's a lot more care andconcern around eVTOLs, because
there just can't be a mistake.
There's got to be a backupsystem, and so on and so forth.
My personal opinion is we'remany years away from electrified
flying with any consistency.
Matt Brown (25:08):
Greg, let's go to lightning round.
What's your favorite smallairport in America?
Greg Aretakis (25:14):
Can I define favorite?
Yeah, the most thrillingairport that I have flown into
routinely is Telluride, colorado, and I love the airport.
It's built on the side of acliff and when you go off the
end of the runway you'resuddenly looking down at a
canyon and it's just scenic ascan be.
(25:35):
It's what they used to call afive-ticket ride at Disneyland,
and I've loved that airport forthat reason.
Matt Brown (25:44):
What's the best airline logo in history?
Greg Aretakis (25:48):
Boy, I'm a homer and I'm going to say the
original Continental AirlineBlack Meeple.
Matt Brown (25:53):
What's your favorite airport lounge?
Greg Aretakis (25:57):
The lounge that is the most memorable for me is
the President's ClubContinental's former lounge at
Washington Dulles Airport, andthe reason that it's memorable
is I was in Europe and I got acall from my boss to go to
(26:19):
Dulles and meet at the lounge,and it was in the lounge that I
was told we were going to befiling bankruptcy and I better
come up with a plan.
I only had like a week to do it, but I have.
That was an electrification day.
Matt Brown (26:36):
If you could give one piece of advice to Southwest
Airlines, what would it be?
And they'd have to follow it.
They'd be required by law tofollow this piece of advice.
Greg Aretakis (26:47):
Well, that's a good question.
Um, I think they have tore-examine their fleet and they
really have to make a fleetdecision that is different from
anything they've ever donebefore.
Their airplanes have gottenbigger and they have more
flexibility than they've everhad, but they've also had to
(27:11):
walk away from a lot of marketsbecause the MAX 8 is a
170-seater and it wasn't toomany years ago they were flying
737-500s around with 125 seatsand when they did that, they
served many smaller marketswhere they could be both unique
(27:32):
and control the pricing in themarketplace, which is harder to
do when you're competing witheveryone else flying Max H.
If I could have a cup of coffeewith Bob Jordan, I'd say you
really got to look at the E-195,e-2 made by Embraer.
It is a small airplane, it'sgot coast-to-coast range, it's
(27:54):
got new technology engines andit's 30% lower fuel burn and
would allow you to fly the kindof niche markets that made
Southwest successful the firsttime around.
Matt Brown (28:09):
Then finally, if you could give the Bart Giamatti,
pete Rose lifetime ban to anyonein the aviation industry who
would you excommunicate?
Greg Aretakis (28:22):
I'm not that guy.
Matt Brown (28:24):
I know, I know you have a name, that's OK.
Greg Aretakis (28:29):
I know, but I'm not that guy.
The fact is that there were alot, there have been a lot of
people in the airline businesswho in their era did a lot of
really good things, maybeextended that era longer than it
needed to be extended.
You know, I will say there wasa time many, many years ago and
(28:52):
I worked for Frank Lorenzo onand off for 16 years and there's
a world of people that reallyhold animus toward him.
I do not.
I think he's a very smart guy,probably the best mentor I ever
had and taught me so much.
And while everyone talks abouthim being a Wall Street money
(29:18):
grabber, the fact of the matteris that the stock that he
acquired with ContinentalAirlines he didn't sell a single
share until he retired in 1990.
And everyone thinks he was justgrabbing money and stuffing it
into pillows.
That is just not true, frank,and he has a book out now.
(29:40):
He just put out his biographycalled Flying for Peanuts.
I recommend it to everybody.
It talks about the entireindustry post deregulation
because he kind of led that era.
There was.
The first bankruptcy of anairline that did not fail
totally was Continental in 1983,the first airline to go
(30:04):
bankrupt and resurrect itself,first one ever.
He also started what has nowbecome the current craze of
rolling airlines up.
They said, well, how can youbuy Eastern Airlines?
How can you buy People Expressand Frontier Airlines things we
did in the 1980s.
(30:25):
Well, american Airlines boughtAirCal, american Airlines bought
Reno Airways.
So how can you say that?
That was evil?
It became the drill.
Delta bought Northwest,southwest bought AirTran.
(30:46):
We at least did not buy inthose areas.
We did not buy our competitorsand shut them down, which is
what American did with TWA.
So I conclude that the era ofthe airline roll-up was one era.
I think the era of the enrichingof senior executives is one
(31:11):
that does bother me somewhat.
I think the guys who came inand took over Northwest Airlines
they were from Marriott, by theway, and those guys made a
whole lot of money and left whenthe leaving was good.
I think that the era of whenStephen Wolf went to US Airways
(31:34):
and enriched himself but leftthe employees somewhat behind.
I think that was an unfairthing to do.
But I've known many, many, manyof the first generation of
airline leaders and I found themall to be incredibly warm,
gracious and thoughtful.
Mr Six was amazing.
(31:55):
Six was amazing and a guy who Ireally really came to totally
respect.
I think that Frank Borman wasan amazing guy and a high class
and, you know, not everyoneliked him as he mechanics union
thought he was a bum, but Ithought he was a fully
thoughtful guy and had to thinkabout the whole company, not
(32:18):
just one union, and I think thatthat's part of it.
I think Don Burr at PeopleExpress was an incredible guy
and a really outside-the-boxthinker in his era.
So these guys were fantastic.
I am proud to have met them all, including Herb, who I thought
(32:38):
was just a great guy to spendtwo hours with.
Jeff Borman (32:44):
Greg, speaking of a great guy to spend two hours
with.
If I had one more hour you'dmake that list.
I'd love to keep this going fora second hour.
The thanks that we owe you.
We're in your debt.
Greg Aretakis (32:57):
Jeff, thank you so much and Matt same to you.
Always a pleasure.
The one flattering thing yousaid about me at the beginning
this industry is my passion andI love it and I watch it evolve
and I'm not going to stopwatching it evolve.
If Greg Aratakis had a coaching tree, it would
literally include almost everyCEO and high-ranking executive
in the airline industry.
Greg is president of MidwestExpress Airlines Inc, a new
airline which is planned to beMilwaukee-based, serving Midwest
markets, with frequent flightsand warm chocolate chip cookies
on board the famous chocolatechip cookies.
(00:29):
I'm sure he gets questionsabout it all the time.
He's been in the airlineindustry since the late 70s,
serving at American Airlines,continental Airlines, shuttle,
america, vanguard, frontier andMidwest.
Passion is an oft-used term inthe travel business, but Greg is
the genuine article.
He is executive advisor,survivor and sage in this
(00:51):
business.
Greg, welcome to no Show.
Greg Aretakis (00:53):
Thank you guys.
So much, matt, jeff, very goodto meet you both.
Jeff Borman (00:58):
Great to have you.
Okay, so I didn't know.
I don't get Matt's introsbefore he does this.
I'm now not going to be able tothink of Midwest Airline
Express without thinking of aformer brand.
I worked for Doubletree.
I remember asking the head ofthe brand when I first began
with Hilton so what isDoubletree's brand, what is it?
Greg Aretakis (01:17):
And he said a cookie which was started in 1984
and changed the name at theturn of the century to Midwest
Airlines, was an airline createdby Kimberly-Clark, when it was
headquartered here in Appleton,wisconsin.
The airline started out as acorporate jet shuttle that
(01:39):
morphed into a scheduled airline.
In those days we had allbusiness class seats.
There were older DC-9s, butthey looked just fine inside.
The problem with the airplaneswas, you know, they had a
lavatory and it could smell upthe back of the airplane.
And one day a very cleveremployee said why don't we bake
(02:00):
chocolate chip cookies on board?
Not as a snack, but to perfumethe plane?
And sure enough, the airplanesbecame known for the scent of
the chocolate chip cookie.
And the chocolate chip cookiesurvived from the first day, or
nearly the first day, all theway until the company merged
with Frontier Airlines andceased to be a brand in 2011.
(02:22):
And ceased to be a brand in2011.
Matt Brown (02:27):
Greg, I can't think of a signature move by an
airline that resonated so muchwith people, like people still
talk about those cookies.
Greg Aretakis (02:33):
They do.
And I get in trouble when Italk to investors or other
people who are interested inwhat we're doing, because
everyone wants to focus on thecookie and I keep on saying the
cookie isn't the brand, thecookie isn't a snack, the cookie
is a symbol.
To this day, I have arelationship with the original
(02:57):
maker of the cookie.
They're in River Falls,wisconsin, and I buy the cookie
in boxes of 240, par-baked andfrozen, and then we have cookie
ovens and we will give them outat civic events.
We will give them out at theChamber of Commerce annual
dinner, do you?
Matt Brown (03:16):
think it's in any way because, in an increasingly
mechanized environment, goingthrough an airport, boarding a
plane, deboarding a plane, thatit feels personal?
Greg Aretakis (03:28):
Yes, it does.
I can say many times that wealways overbooked, overbaked the
cookies and we would alwayshave a dozen, maybe 18 cookies
left over after we'd served thepeople.
And sometimes people turneddown the cookie for sugar
reasons or for whatever reason,but walking off the airplane we
(03:50):
would offer people two cookiesin a cute little packet I have
one right over here actually,but a very cute little packet
and years later people told mewe took those cookies home, gave
them to our kids and the nexttime we were traveling the kids
would say to me Daddy, when youget back, make sure you bring me
(04:12):
a couple of cookies In anindustry that's become very
similar.
I mean, the difference betweenairline seats and the flights
isn't huge.
The cookie is a differentiator.
We talk about the stickiness ofa brand, not much more sticky
(04:32):
than having your kids saying canyou bring me home one of those?
Jeff Borman (04:37):
When Doubletree, like all hotels, were shuttered
during COVID, there were thesepassionate travelers who
couldn't go to Double Tree andcouldn't stay and get their
cookies, and so Double Treepublished the recipe.
That's how powerful it was.
If we understand, you miss yourcookies badly, here you are All
right and almost as much fun ascookies.
(04:59):
I want to ask a question aboutairline deregulation and
regulation At the end of the 70s.
Doj, DOT has recently youwitnessed deregulation at the
end of the 70s.
The DOJ and DOT just announcedthat they're launching an
investigation into antitrustbehavior in aviation, again here
in 2024.
(05:21):
My question is what's toinvestigate?
Greg Aretakis (05:24):
Well, I know where it starts.
It starts with people who sayto people maybe at a cocktail
party, maybe after a committeehearing on the Hill, they'll say
things like boy, airfares havereally gotten high.
Or I'm hearing a lot about highairfares.
Or I get letters from a friendor a constituent who had a bad
(05:48):
flight experience and had a hardtime contacting the airline or
getting my refund or somethinglike that.
And that becomes the beginningof that conversation.
At the end of the day,deregulation gave people the
right to try differenttechniques associated with
(06:10):
flying an airplane around.
Of course, table stakes areit's got to be safe and it's got
to be reliable, and as soon asyou go off that script, then the
government is looking over yourshoulder.
I have said many times and I'vesaid it publicly, so I won't
hide from it.
I've said when we talk aboutre-regulating the airline
(06:34):
business or doing a case studyon competition in the airline
business, the first two thingsthat ought to happen is the
Department of Transportation and, separately, the Department of
Justice each have to look intotheir respective mirror, because
where we are today is no moreor less than the product of what
(06:56):
government regulation hascreated.
In 1978, you could fly whereyou wanted to fly for the first
time, with as many flights asyou wanted.
For the first time, you couldcharge the prices you wanted.
For the first time, you coulddo marketing shtick for the
first time.
(07:16):
And as Dr Kahn Fred Kahn, whowas the author of deregulation
once said, the dumb should beallowed to fail.
And that's what deregulationwas all about.
Now we've moved to a place andI will steal the line that has
been offused too big to fail,and the airlines that are left
(07:40):
are, in fact, kind of too big tofail.
The government is going to workextra hard to keep them up and,
as a byproduct of that, hasincreased the barriers to entry.
Remember, in 1978, we createdairlines like well.
1980, we create airlines likeNew York Air and People Express
(08:01):
and Midway Airlines.
Those brands are long gone.
They in fact failed.
Today, the cost of getting inthe business, the capital
requirement, the regulatoryhurdles that you have to go over
are gigantic, and thegovernment did that in order to
make sure the too big to faildidn't in fact.
Jeff Borman (08:23):
So where I, as a consumer and a pretty educated
one find issue with the currentenvironment, first of all, it
seems to me that it gotsignificantly worse after the
financial crisis and big sixbecame big three.
The second to that is there area few things more annoying when
I travel than when AmericanAirlines tells me on landing we
(08:43):
appreciate you for choosing us.
You have a choice when you flyOn my way into DFW, where I have
no choice in who I fly theregulatory environment to me.
if you're looking at nationalfigures, you're probably not
going to find an issue.
But if you're looking at anyonebased in Atlanta trying to have
a choice in Dallas trying tohave a choice, right, let's go
(09:04):
for probably 20 of the next top25 cities.
That's where it seems to rubbermeets road.
Regulation is back in question.
Am I wrong in that observationor am I just a jaded weekly
traveler?
Greg Aretakis (09:17):
The bottom line is, if you look at the large
cities, what they have going forthem Dallas and Atlanta and
Detroit and O'Hare and Newark isthey have a lot of flights to a
lot of places.
So if you're in Dallas andyou're trying to go to
Cincinnati, there are probablysix flights a day and they're
(09:40):
conveniently timed.
They might be more expensivethan they used to be and I'll
get to the price side of it in asecond.
But if you're in Cincinnati andyou want to go to Pittsburgh,
your choice is to drive becausethere are no flights.
If you want to go to St Louisthese are five-hour drives, by
the way, five-hour drive thereare no flights.
If you want to go between thetwo largest cities in the state
(10:04):
of Ohio, cleveland andCincinnati there are no flights.
So the fact is that if you wantto go to Dallas or O'Hare or
Newark, even Nashville, which isa Southwest hub, or Phoenix, an
American Airlines hub, orDenver, a Southwest and United
hub, plenty of flights Airlineshub.
(10:26):
Or Denver, a Southwest andUnited hub, plenty of flights.
If you want to go any placeelse, it becomes harder and part
of the hard becomes.
You got to take a connectionBack in 1980 or 81,.
You could fly most places thatwere within two hours of where
you lived for $39,.
$49, right, those wereSouthwest Airlines just a couple
(10:48):
of decades ago charging $19,right.
As a smart man once said to me,if you charge a low enough
price, people will travel in awheelbarrow, and that's very
much the situation Today.
That same flight is going tocost you about $600 round trip
(11:08):
and, by the way, I might be lowand at $600,.
The demand of the customer fora more complete delivery.
Whether that's the airportprocess, whether that's the
boarding process, whether that'sthe flying process, whether
it's the collection of baggageupon arrival process.
They demand excellence becausefor 600 bucks, they feel like
(11:32):
they paid for it At $39,.
When People Express didn't flyfrom Newark to Buffalo for three
days during a blizzard,everyone said, well, $39, I'll
just sleep in the airport.
That's what's changed.
What's changed is thecombination of the demands by
(11:53):
the customer, particularly at aprice versus what they had been
years ago.
Jeff Borman (11:59):
When I was a young revenue manager, I had a former
airline executive, who was amentor, to me explain how
airlines would price fix bypublishing fares on Saturday
mornings when shopping volumewas the lowest, making the risk
of being priced wrong very low.
So if a pricing manager fromAmerican wanted to take the fare
up from DCA to Tulsa, they'd doit on a Saturday morning, and
(12:20):
if the competing airlines forthat route were going to match,
they would do it on Saturdayafternoon, and if they didn't,
the airline revenue guy fromAmerican could take that rate
back to what it was.
I imagine that there is a farmore sophisticated system out
there today, but do airlinesstill message price intent with
each other like they used to?
Greg Aretakis (12:39):
It's more instantaneous now than it was.
So there are two things I wantto talk about, then and now.
So then, atp Co, a companyheadquartered right outside of
DC which is the nationwideclearinghouse for airline fares.
They used to only allow a fareload three times a day, and
(13:01):
twice on Saturdays, and twice onSundays, by the way, so that
the trick was to load on thefirst load on Saturday morning
and there isn't much buying onSaturday afternoon.
So your risk of making acatastrophic mistake was small,
although I can remember exampleswhere Alitalia published a fare
of $59 from New York to Romefor a day and they sold a
(13:26):
billion tickets and it was bad.
But I mean, it happens right.
But on Saturday afternoonmostly, what happens is the
fares are quickly scrutinized.
You don't fix it Saturday night.
Listen, have a great evening.
Sunday at noon you're at yourcomputer and you're saying, gee,
(13:47):
delta didn't match, or PeopleExpress didn't match, or PSA
didn't match, and you justchange your fare back and there
was very, very little harm.
Now there's an almostinstantaneous loading of fares.
It's hourly or even quickerthan that.
So again, the signaling happensmore.
(14:08):
You know, someone has I've seenseveral articles the best day
to buy a ticket is on a Tuesday.
Well, you know, I file a fareon a Tuesday at 11 o'clock in
the morning.
By 1 o'clock in the afternoon Ican fix it, because it can be
fixed very quickly, and so thedrama associated with Saturday
(14:30):
morning and Sunday morning isn'tthe way it was.
Airlines don't want to be thatdifferent.
Among the club of AmericanUnited, delta, alaska, the fares
are almost always harmonious.
Among the airlines likeAllegiant which doesn't publish
(14:53):
with ATP Co by the way, they doit all internally or Spirit or
Frontier, the numbers can besomewhat different, but that's
more of a marketing ploy thananything else.
Some people offer a cookie,some people offer a fare that's
$20 lower.
Matt Brown (15:11):
Let's go down that rabbit hole a little bit and
talk a little about privateaviation, particularly the
future of private aviation.
Private flyers can dodgeairport experiences.
They can dodge the two-hourwait times, the flight delays,
the bag checks, all theunnecessary anxiety created by
the TSA, and they can do it forthe cost of a first-class
(15:32):
commercial ticket for a couple.
Why don't we see more of this?
Greg Aretakis (15:36):
I think we are.
It's certainly growing.
In 2020, we set an all-timerecord for private jet flying.
2021, we exceeded that.
2022, we exceeded that.
2023, we exceeded that, andonly this year is it going down
a little bit.
That is absolutely collinear toairlines finally growing their
(16:03):
schedules enough to making theconvenience factor for scheduled
flight almost as good asprivate jet.
But as I said earlier when wetalked about price and the
relationship between aconsumer's expectation and the
price is, once you get to thepoint where a two-hour flight is
(16:26):
going to cost just $600, sothat the family of four is going
to pay $2,400 or more, I canfly a private jet for about
double that and all my wholefamily's on the airplane.
And oh, by the way, I park forfree at the FBO.
I get a nice little snack and acup of coffee in the 20 minutes
(16:51):
and I'll repeat 20 minutes thatI have to wait around for my
plane and then I walk out andget on the airplane.
I don't have to meet 10,000 ofmy closest friends in the
airport concourse, I simply geton the plane and then, when I
get to the other end, I walk offand I get on my Uber or, if
there's a rental car, I pick itup.
(17:12):
The difference of convenienceis quite high.
The frustration with people atthe airport has grown.
It's one of the reasons whyairlines like Delta are building
clubs with private entranceswhere they have their own
(17:32):
dedicated TSA line, so thatpeople going to the highest-end
clubs have a more private,jet-like experience.
Matt Brown (17:42):
On a similar tack, america has something like 4,000
small airfields and they're allaround this.
Will those ever be tapped forsignificant commercial travel?
If we see this kind ofdispersion out for kind of
personal experiences, I wonderif somebody will come along and
start to leverage all theseairstrips.
Greg Aretakis (18:05):
Well, some of those strips are not being
served but are in fact viable.
There are airports likeRepublic Airport in Long Island
or Lakeland Airport south ofOrlando.
Those airports were alwaysavailable to be served.
I guess the best really recentexample is New Haven,
(18:28):
Connecticut.
New Haven was a viablecommercial airport, had no
service.
Avelo Airlines went in thereand today they serve 18
destinations nonstop out ofthere and it has many of the
small airport benefits, of thesmall airport benefits and the
(18:52):
piece of the airport.
That's become more worthy of adiscussion.
So we used to all live moreurban.
We lived in Connecticut, welived in Queens, we lived in
Northeast New Jersey and we wereanywhere 45 minutes an hour
away from an airport.
One of the things the pandemicdid was for a large fracture of
(19:13):
people, it sent them out to thehinterland and the access to an
airport might be two hours andin fact the end of air service
at a lot of small airports,which has been occurring as the
small planes have been retiredout, those people are now faced
(19:33):
with a two-hour or so drive.
So there's a certainconvenience with those 4,000
airports.
The private jet business isalready doing that and there's a
lot of data out there.
If you go to look at someplacelike Pontiac Michigan, it's one
of the busiest airports in thecountry.
No one knows that Teterboro hasbeen there for years, but these
(19:54):
airports they're so highlyconvenient.
No one wants to go to the bigairport, they want to go to
these private, these small,private airports closer to where
I work.
Jeff Borman (20:04):
So how does that make its way into everyday life?
Most people I mean 99% ofcommercial air flyers in America
don't even consider using thesetiny airports.
What has to happen for theAddison airport, that is five
minutes from me, to be on myradar instead of DFW, at 35
(20:26):
minutes away?
Greg Aretakis (20:28):
And DFW is 35 minutes away.
If there's no traffic acrossLBJ and if you can find a
parking spot, that's reasonablyconvenient.
But I digress.
Jeff Borman (20:38):
I don't park and I fly super early, but part of
that is because of all theinconveniences you described.
Greg Aretakis (20:45):
So let's say I want to fly privately.
How do I connect withDirectional Aviation?
They're headquartered justoutside of Cleveland, ohio, one
of the largest private jetproviders in the country.
Who knows them?
How do you buy them?
Can you go on Google and buythem?
Are they in a GDS where atravel agency is going to see
(21:08):
them?
The answer is no and no Privatejet has the most potential and
the most flexibility of theaviation products, because the
rules for private jet flyingallow a pilot to be older than
65 years old.
Commercially that's against therules, but I can be 67 and a
(21:32):
certified pilot and fly a Falcon50.
And I'll get hired by a privatejet airline.
If I'm a retired United captain, I might be able to fly till
I'm in my mid-70s and I'mtotally qualified.
I'm probably my mid-70s and I'mtotally qualified.
I'm probably overqualified.
So they don't have pilot issuesthe way that scheduled airlines
(21:53):
have pilot issues and theydon't have forced retirements
the way that scheduled airlinesdo and they don't have as many
restrictions on what airportsthey can fly into.
Think about the flexibility onwhat airports they can fly into.
Think about the flexibility?
Jeff Borman (22:07):
Do you think that with EVTOL, the electric
vertical takeoff and landing orflying taxis, I think, as most
people think of them.
I don't know if that'sparticularly an accurate
description, but as people usethis product and it will evolve
and be available at some pointrather soon, will that be what
changes the use of these smallairfields?
Greg Aretakis (22:28):
I talk with the eVTOL guys every year at EAA up
in Oshkosh, Wisconsin.
They all present and every yearwhen I ask them, how far away
are you from certification, it'salways 18 to 24 months.
And, by the way, the next yearit's 18 to 24 months.
And, by the way, the next yearit's 18 to 24 months.
And we hear periodically ofsome of these eVTOL makers
(22:54):
suddenly running out of cash andshutting down.
That's just happened a coupleof weeks ago with one of them.
But if you look at a companylike AMP or a company like
Lilith or some of these guys,they're all coming around Right
now.
The product doesn't have thelegs.
It can be a four-seater andmight be able to go maybe 100
(23:17):
miles.
I am not going to poo-poo thefuture of electric flying.
I think it's going to come.
But there's a whole lot ofstuff that has to happen first.
One is the technology isn'tthere when the product can fly
for a couple of hours and thebattery can be charged or
(23:37):
swapped out at the other end in25 minutes.
That's part of it.
Remember the original electriccars that we saw in the United
States, the Prius.
The battery was the size of thecar, I mean, it was literally a
.
The entire chassis was a giantbattery.
Aviation can't handle that kindof weight.
So the battery's got, thetechnology's got to get better,
(24:01):
and even Elon Musk has saidwe're not there yet, we're not
even close.
Musk has said we're not thereyet, we're not even close.
I've said you get 20,000 torquepounds of power out of a
battery the size of a shoeboxand it can last for two hours.
Okay, now you got something.
The other side of the coin is aplane flying through the sky
with fixed wings.
(24:22):
If something bad were to happen, an engine were to shut down or
something, you can glide to anairport and make a very safe
landing.
It happens enough times that weknow it works.
A propellerized airplane,something more akin to a hybrid
helicopter.
When the battery suddenly goesdead, it's a stone that falls
(24:45):
straight down suddenly goes dead, it's a stone that falls
straight down.
So there's a lot more care andconcern around eVTOLs, because
there just can't be a mistake.
There's got to be a backupsystem, and so on and so forth.
My personal opinion is we'remany years away from electrified
flying with any consistency.
Matt Brown (25:08):
Greg, let's go to lightning round.
What's your favorite smallairport in America?
Greg Aretakis (25:14):
Can I define favorite?
Yeah, the most thrillingairport that I have flown into
routinely is Telluride, colorado, and I love the airport.
It's built on the side of acliff and when you go off the
end of the runway you'resuddenly looking down at a
canyon and it's just scenic ascan be.
(25:35):
It's what they used to call afive-ticket ride at Disneyland,
and I've loved that airport forthat reason.
Matt Brown (25:44):
What's the best airline logo in history?
Greg Aretakis (25:48):
Boy, I'm a homer and I'm going to say the
original Continental AirlineBlack Meeple.
Matt Brown (25:53):
What's your favorite airport lounge?
Greg Aretakis (25:57):
The lounge that is the most memorable for me is
the President's ClubContinental's former lounge at
Washington Dulles Airport, andthe reason that it's memorable
is I was in Europe and I got acall from my boss to go to
(26:19):
Dulles and meet at the lounge,and it was in the lounge that I
was told we were going to befiling bankruptcy and I better
come up with a plan.
I only had like a week to do it, but I have.
That was an electrification day.
Matt Brown (26:36):
If you could give one piece of advice to Southwest
Airlines, what would it be?
And they'd have to follow it.
They'd be required by law tofollow this piece of advice.
Greg Aretakis (26:47):
Well, that's a good question.
Um, I think they have tore-examine their fleet and they
really have to make a fleetdecision that is different from
anything they've ever donebefore.
Their airplanes have gottenbigger and they have more
flexibility than they've everhad, but they've also had to
(27:11):
walk away from a lot of marketsbecause the MAX 8 is a
170-seater and it wasn't toomany years ago they were flying
737-500s around with 125 seatsand when they did that, they
served many smaller marketswhere they could be both unique
(27:32):
and control the pricing in themarketplace, which is harder to
do when you're competing witheveryone else flying Max H.
If I could have a cup of coffeewith Bob Jordan, I'd say you
really got to look at the E-195,e-2 made by Embraer.
It is a small airplane, it'sgot coast-to-coast range, it's
(27:54):
got new technology engines andit's 30% lower fuel burn and
would allow you to fly the kindof niche markets that made
Southwest successful the firsttime around.
Matt Brown (28:09):
Then finally, if you could give the Bart Giamatti,
pete Rose lifetime ban to anyonein the aviation industry who
would you excommunicate?
Greg Aretakis (28:22):
I'm not that guy.
Matt Brown (28:24):
I know, I know you have a name, that's OK.
Greg Aretakis (28:29):
I know, but I'm not that guy.
The fact is that there were alot, there have been a lot of
people in the airline businesswho in their era did a lot of
really good things, maybeextended that era longer than it
needed to be extended.
You know, I will say there wasa time many, many years ago and
(28:52):
I worked for Frank Lorenzo onand off for 16 years and there's
a world of people that reallyhold animus toward him.
I do not.
I think he's a very smart guy,probably the best mentor I ever
had and taught me so much.
And while everyone talks abouthim being a Wall Street money
(29:18):
grabber, the fact of the matteris that the stock that he
acquired with ContinentalAirlines he didn't sell a single
share until he retired in 1990.
And everyone thinks he was justgrabbing money and stuffing it
into pillows.
That is just not true, frank,and he has a book out now.
(29:40):
He just put out his biographycalled Flying for Peanuts.
I recommend it to everybody.
It talks about the entireindustry post deregulation
because he kind of led that era.
There was.
The first bankruptcy of anairline that did not fail
totally was Continental in 1983,the first airline to go
(30:04):
bankrupt and resurrect itself,first one ever.
He also started what has nowbecome the current craze of
rolling airlines up.
They said, well, how can youbuy Eastern Airlines?
How can you buy People Expressand Frontier Airlines things we
did in the 1980s.
(30:25):
Well, american Airlines boughtAirCal, american Airlines bought
Reno Airways.
So how can you say that?
That was evil?
It became the drill.
Delta bought Northwest,southwest bought AirTran.
(30:46):
We at least did not buy inthose areas.
We did not buy our competitorsand shut them down, which is
what American did with TWA.
So I conclude that the era ofthe airline roll-up was one era.
I think the era of the enrichingof senior executives is one
(31:11):
that does bother me somewhat.
I think the guys who came inand took over Northwest Airlines
they were from Marriott, by theway, and those guys made a
whole lot of money and left whenthe leaving was good.
I think that the era of whenStephen Wolf went to US Airways
(31:34):
and enriched himself but leftthe employees somewhat behind.
I think that was an unfairthing to do.
But I've known many, many, manyof the first generation of
airline leaders and I found themall to be incredibly warm,
gracious and thoughtful.
Mr Six was amazing.
(31:55):
Six was amazing and a guy who Ireally really came to totally
respect.
I think that Frank Borman wasan amazing guy and a high class
and, you know, not everyoneliked him as he mechanics union
thought he was a bum, but Ithought he was a fully
thoughtful guy and had to thinkabout the whole company, not
(32:18):
just one union, and I think thatthat's part of it.
I think Don Burr at PeopleExpress was an incredible guy
and a really outside-the-boxthinker in his era.
So these guys were fantastic.
I am proud to have met them all, including Herb, who I thought
(32:38):
was just a great guy to spendtwo hours with.
Jeff Borman (32:44):
Greg, speaking of a great guy to spend two hours
with.
If I had one more hour you'dmake that list.
I'd love to keep this going fora second hour.
The thanks that we owe you.
We're in your debt.
Greg Aretakis (32:57):
Jeff, thank you so much and Matt same to you.
Always a pleasure.
The one flattering thing yousaid about me at the beginning
this industry is my passion andI love it and I watch it evolve
and I'm not going to stopwatching it evolve.
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